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Saw 3D (2010)
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This week on the Everything Actioncast, Zach and Chris celebrate Halloween with the final (at the time) Jigsaw game, Saw 3D, which came out 15 years ago this week.
Wrapping up the original Saw series, Saw 3D, aka Saw: The Final Chapter, finds Detective Hoffman (Costas Mandylor) trying to kill Jill Tuck (Betsy Russell) to clear up any loose ends so he can escape before he's arrested as the new Jigsaw Killer. He takes time to set up one final game, this time involving Bobby Dagen (Sean Patrick Flanery), a self-help author who has lied about being a victim of the Jigsaw Killer and is now put through the traps for real. Zach and Chris discuss why Hoffman keeps making games when he wants to escape, the best traps in the movie, how all the side actors feel distinctly Canadian, John's (Tobin Bell) backward baseball cap disguise, the big reveal of who the ultra-secret Jigsaw apprentice is, and more.
You can watch Saw 3D on Hulu/Disney+. Next week, we're on the hunt and watching 2010's Predators to get ready for Predator: Badlands in theaters.
We want to hear your comments and feedback. Send them all to contact@everythingaction.com. Also, let us know your suggestions for movies for us to discuss.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to the Everything Action Cast, the official podcast of EverythingAction.com.
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Everything Action Cast podcast week of October 27th, 2025. I'm your host, Zach. I'm your co-host, Chris.
Saw 3D and Franchise Discussion
00:00:26
Speaker
And if you're hearing this on the day goes up, ah happy Halloween. Happy Halloween.
00:00:29
Speaker
And we are celebrating Halloween by playing a game and it's talking about Saw three d which came out 15 years ago this week. It came out on October 29th, 2010.
00:00:44
Speaker
And at the time, we all thought it was the final chapter of the Saw franchise, but we now we know there was many a few more and more on the way, possibly.
00:00:55
Speaker
ah Yeah, as a like ah Saw fan, I was all about like trying to see where this whole series was going, and I was sad to see it go, but now I'm kind of like, oh boy.
00:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, I also feel at the time people were just like, this is like one of the worst movies the Saw series, but now after seeing Jigsaw and Spiral, like this is like way, way better than any of those movies. Yeah.
Narrative and Character Analysis
00:01:21
Speaker
Yeah, ae in retrospect, it was something that, like, you just wanted a good ending, and it just kinda rambled around a bit. little bit, yeah.
00:01:33
Speaker
Maybe you were seeing something? ah I feel like you you haven't- have you still not seen Jigsaw? No, I did. Oh, you saw Jigsaw? Spiral's the one you haven't seen yet, right? no, I've seen them all.
00:01:44
Speaker
um we seen them all. like i forget you I remember we were talking about you need to see Spiral. just reflect the The weird, high-pitched Jigsaw copycat. Which, it just has no right to be called a Jigsaw movie.
00:01:58
Speaker
it It's from the Jigsaw, Chris. Just don't even even mention that. Just have it be like a nut... It should have done what Split and Glass did. Where it's this like like you think it's like just like ah like a...
00:02:11
Speaker
original idea. It's a really killer movie, it's like, oh, this is actually a Saw movie. It's in the Saw universe. I would have been fine with that. I would have been totally... Yeah, just because your expectations are low, and then you're just like, oh, it's world building. Like, whoa.
00:02:27
Speaker
And then, in you know... If it doesn't do great, it's fine. That was the weird spinoff that you really have no connection. But don't don't insult the movie like it did. I think the spiral just made it seem like at some point Jigsaw is going to pop up, but it's going to be a completely different message.
00:02:45
Speaker
um I mean, okay, granted, I think my now in Saw 3D, I think ah John Cramer has been dead for like three movies. Well, so yeah, because he died in three, but then three and four take place at the exact same time.
00:03:00
Speaker
So three, he's been dead since three and four, which, and then and like how, how long has there been, don't know how long it like time. Cause like, when you think about it, the timeframe is like really condensed, like especially like these, last like the last couple of movies, like um everything, everything, everything, this whole universe feels like it takes place over the spam of like four years.
00:03:26
Speaker
Just because of like, yeah, if that, um the only time it gives you an indication of like where you are is how much they reference Saw 4, I think. Like whatever. It's like you got to remember that timeline of like was Kramer getting head surgery or not.
00:03:43
Speaker
ah And then maybe even even like wounds don't like seem to indicate anything. there's There's a scene where Hoffman is like. It looks like Hoffman needs like months of just like recovery, and he's back at it like the next night doing like all this like criminal mischief that I i think will definitely discuss like how much they are getting done in one evening.
Visual Style and Filming Insights
00:04:07
Speaker
Well, I think on IDB, like the trivia, which, you know, they get the other great assault, I guess. But like, one of the trivias thing is like, apparently there's like, they don't, they never mentioned it in the movie, but there's like a two month gap between when Hoffman gets caught in the bear trap or skates the bear trap. And then, um or when, when Jill gives like her like testimony to the police. And then like, when you see like Hoffman, that scene, was like two, like, so it's it's probably, it's like two months between,
00:04:34
Speaker
ah when the next game starts after Jill goes to internal affairs and wants Hoffman arrested. So I guess you know there's a little bit time for Hoffman to heal. Yeah, because his his face is like, half his face gets ripped off, and then like later on he's like, oh, it's just a little scar. Like...
00:04:53
Speaker
but but I kind of miss that. like I think this is my like fourth time watching this movie, and I just kind of like, maybe because I wasn't like completely enthralled with the details like I once was when I saw this movie 15 years ago.
00:05:05
Speaker
But, yeah, I just totally just blink, because he's got the same like haircut. he's got He's basically wearing the same clothes throughout the whole movie. Yeah, well, yeah, they they don't do not them they don't mention any sort of time. You don't have you' have no sense a time of like when anything's happening.
00:05:20
Speaker
it it does It does feel like it's all just like, A couple days.
00:05:26
Speaker
And I can understand they want to just get the movie along. And then... Man, I feel bad because, like, Gibson isn't a terrible character. He's the new, like, the like detective yeah this chase. But he's introduced so late by the final chapter of this series that you're just like, oh, you aren't around. Like, you just feel that he's not going to be around. There's a whole bunch of, like, cop detectives that you just know they're they're going to be, like, just the sorority girls in a slasher movie.
00:05:59
Speaker
Well, I don't i think I read a review one time where people like someone said like this feels like if they made a Saw TV show.
Production and Box Office Details
00:06:07
Speaker
like Just the way it looks and like the acting like the like level actors they get outside like the main cast.
00:06:13
Speaker
like this field yeah This feels like ah filmed in Canada saw TV show. Were other movies filmed in Canada?
00:06:26
Speaker
i mean maybe yeah i think I think this one definitely like this one was definitely filmed in Canada.
00:06:35
Speaker
So I'm sure i'm sure like a lot of like everyone besides like you know the main... the main like Sean Patrick Flannery and Costas Mandelor and Betsy Russell and Tobin Bell were all just like local Canadian actors.
00:06:53
Speaker
And just the way it looks, it definitely looks, I think it has like the second highest budget, but it looks like it's like very cheap. i don't if that's like the 3D-ness of it, like the way like that those cameras work, but like this this one like it yeah definitely looks like a CW show or something.
00:07:13
Speaker
But it costs $17 million.
00:07:20
Speaker
Which is like the high, like, this yeah, Spiral is the most, like, Spiral is the most expensive movie in the in the series. That's a shame. it cost It costs, it costs 20 million.
00:07:32
Speaker
Which is weird because you think they would, like, they would have, like, cut the, but like, think they start, like, you know, they would start cutting the budgets because, like, like, five was, like, a disaster.
00:07:44
Speaker
Where's five again? So five Five is the one with... um it's It's the people that started the fire and the building that has nothing to do with John. For so like just so for some reason, he just like got obsessed with that like arson case.
00:08:02
Speaker
And then they realized that they had work together through the whole whole like whole trap of the game. Because at the end, they have to like give like and ah like a certain amount of blood.
00:08:14
Speaker
okay and then if they all lived they only had to give like a little bit of blood but then the last two people had to give like their like half their like blood for their bodies to get out of it
00:08:25
Speaker
but that would yeah that one was like a like financial like that was like the by far of the lowest
Complexity of Traps and Themes
00:08:29
Speaker
grossing movie of the franchise that's a you know that one over time has been more favorable 6 was the lowest one and Okay. That makes more sense. Yeah, but then they gave Seven the biggest budget of the entire series.
00:08:49
Speaker
But they did cut it down because it was going to be two movies. It was going be like a like soft like the Final Chapter Part 1, Final Chapter Part 2. Then they were like, Saw VI didn't do that great. We're go making one more movie.
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like you needed two movies to get used to Gibson to root for him. Because if not, you're just like, this guy keeps stumbling into all these aftermath incidences.
00:09:12
Speaker
And I think the only time he seems like to be a detective that is what you notice, what what's like traditionally in the Saw movies is the only time he interrogates Jill. And then, if anything, that was what, like two months in this thing? Like night Hoffman ah hoffman getting, like, his face ripped, and then ah just becoming Jason for no reason. Just, like, stalking Jill in the, like, the factory.
00:09:40
Speaker
Yeah, it is it is it's funny, like, in the previous movie, like, Hoffman was, like, so methodical about killing, yeah like, framing, like, FBI agent Strom and making then like clear like making its like making it so, like, he gets out of everything, like, intact and, like, no one suspects him. Yeah.
00:09:56
Speaker
and like killing everyone who like would like know that he's the Jigsaw apprentice. But in this way just like, fuck it, whatever, i'm just gonna make videos of my face, send the police. Yeah, no mask, no voice kind of modulation.
00:10:10
Speaker
Very weird. um Is it because he doesn't have like a master anymore, so now he can just freely do what he wants, which is basically not be a Jigsaw person?
00:10:21
Speaker
Well, that's what's always weird about it is, yeah, like Jon's been dead for three movies or four movies at this point, but Hoffman is still following his, like, Jon's plans that he laid out, like, here's all the games I want you to do.
00:10:35
Speaker
But he's also trying to, like, get out of it and, like, frame people and, like, get, like, let, you know, escape the country or whatever trying to But so he's, look at like, he's just, like, two, to like, opposite actions of, like, going to keep these games going, but I also want to get out of these games.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's... and If anything, you could tell when they're doing a two-movie difference. It should have been... The first movie would have had him be like, oh man, it's so great to be Jigsaw. I i get to dictate the games. This is my rule.
00:11:07
Speaker
And then realize that... He can't like he because he doesn't follow the ah structure of Kramer's ah methods and his like therapy that has like 100 percent.
00:11:21
Speaker
ah Like rates or whatever, he keeps bragging that like his conversion therapy is like. ah The best because essentially it makes you fight for your life.
00:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, because you appreciate your life. Yeah, often it's like, right I kill people. But like, I guess because he got away with so much in 6, but it wasn't even that much compared to what he would have done here, because this is way more elaborate of different set pieces and surgical things and and traps that Usually there's some cleverness to
Character Deceptions and Traps
00:12:01
Speaker
that. These are traps that Kramer has been planning and that a lot of them are in prototypes. And then he just needs a reason to put them in the place. And, and you have like abandoned lots and, and like dilapidated buildings in order for him to construct these, what feel like almost Joker,
00:12:19
Speaker
um like if you I mean, these are Joker traps, but you remove the clown stuff. ah You still maybe keep Slappy or whatever. The Jigsaw. Billy, yeah. Billy, yeah. um And then I thought about the the traps that get featured in this movie.
00:12:35
Speaker
And they they kind of like give up by like halfway through. like Any kind of metaphor...
00:12:44
Speaker
Well, there's there's kind of... There's sort of like a like They're reaching for it, but it's there's kind of there's like a see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil thing going on.
00:12:56
Speaker
Because like that's like part of like the like the... The Jigsaw monologues. It's like, your lawyer... She did she she looked the other way while you were deceiving people. Now, if you don't help her, she won't see ever again.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yep. I noticed that like a lot of it is doing the, like, you're hiding the truth. ah And I guess because... Now, here's the interesting thing. she saying but Whose plan was this for?
00:13:23
Speaker
Like, Hoffman, I think, like sort of emergency pulled out, like, okay, what do i got left in the like ah but like research files? And he goes, alright, well...
00:13:35
Speaker
ah Bobby has been on Kramer's list for a while because he lied about being a survivor.
00:13:43
Speaker
And there's nothing like particular. okay is it because Bobby's in the news? And so that's why Hoffman chooses him, because he's like a very high profile target.
00:13:56
Speaker
Maybe, yeah. Because in 6, he specifically got envelopes from Jill. was like, here's here's here's who John wanted you like to target this time. like Here's like five people, go get them.
00:14:08
Speaker
And then, yeah, this one, we don't really know. It's just like... um
00:14:14
Speaker
guess... Yeah, he's just like flaunting... Sean Patrick Flannery, Bobby, is like flaunting himself as a jigsaw survivor and like making money and going on talk shows. He wrote a book.
00:14:26
Speaker
And then the whole then the whole thing is obviously like, oh, you you said you were a survivor, jigsaw survivor, have to survive the game for real.
00:14:35
Speaker
Although, we should probably, before we like really get into Bobby's game, we should really get into like ah the the it got two standalone traps that are in like and the beginning.
00:14:47
Speaker
the cold open saw trap. is the ah like the like a literal saw trap Oh, yeah. which i think I also don't even understand how Hoffman had the free time to go do that, if you're supposed to believe Hoffman made that trap.
00:15:07
Speaker
is Is that the first is that the first like literal Saw trap in Saw? No, there's been like pendulums, and I feel like it can't. feel like there's other Saw things.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like like like the people that... like I think it was like the cold open of Six, maybe? Where were they like they had to cut off enough of but like enough of their body limbs for the scale. But that was a butcher knife.
00:15:31
Speaker
Okay, yeah. So they had hack out their limbs. Also, randomly, that they introduced the Survivors group that there's a whole bunch of people we've never seen before. couple of them appeared before, but then yeah a bunch of there's just just a bunch of like random people. are like I was also in a trap.
00:15:48
Speaker
yeah But yeah, the opening Sawtrap, it's definitely the first one that's been just like out in public, like and like on on display for people to see it.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, and and you know, in this world where there are traps like this, and and kind of like displays, everyone's just like, oh cool, this will look great on like my MySpace page later, I'll take a bunch of like crappy cam photos.
00:16:14
Speaker
i will I will give people some people credit, like, like some people immediately calling the police, um but then also it's just a bunch of people just watching it. Yeah, gawking. Yeah. Like, oh boy, like, that's... And, like, they're surprised when it goes wrong.
00:16:28
Speaker
that's That's also really crazy, because it's the, I guess, the the metaphor for the audience of us watching these horrible things and we can't do anything. Mm-hmm. But only there is only one lady who like tries to do something and she like smacks the glass. case Yeah.
00:16:46
Speaker
And she just gives up. Like, well, I tried. Yep. So let's all give a good Canadian like gawk. Yep. And then the whole premise of that game is that there's two guys and there's a girl suspended on the ceiling.
00:17:03
Speaker
she's She's been cheating on them with but like with each other. like She's seeing both of them. they did Either guy didn't know that. And then it's like the whole thing is like either either choose to kill each like your rival or kill the person that's toxic to you.
00:17:19
Speaker
And it's sort of like, they don't really get into it, but they imply that like she's making them do criminal things for like her affection or something. He's like, her love is making you do criminal like criminal acts.
00:17:31
Speaker
Really? i never... and yeah didn't and get that. I thought it was, like, he's more about the sacred vow of monogamy or something. yeah there's Yeah. there's so There's something... There's some weird thing where, like, apparently they were, like stealing or doing something to, like... and she Or she was making them, like, you need you need to steal this for me or do this for me. And they're, like... If you love me, you'll rob his bank.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yeah, something of that. I mean, maybe they showed us that, but... Because, if anything, I thought these were just a bunch of, like, college kids who... or in some CW drama, and Jigsaw was like, none of that in my city.
00:18:08
Speaker
But yeah, but, and they're also, they kind of have like a, like, dude-to-a-us-my-car thing, because they're both like like, stupid bros, they're just like, bro, who the fuck are you? It's like, who the fuck are you?
00:18:21
Speaker
Bro, it's our girlfriend!
00:18:25
Speaker
But then they they they kind of like, it's you know they they have to push the saw into each other or let the saw go into the girl and kill her and then they'll both live, which they ultimately decide to do. Because she's she's like the she's like the absolute worst. or just like Whoever's winning, she's like cheering them on yeah She's like, yeah, yeah. I love you, Brad. And then Brad's losing. He's like, no, I love actually love you, Adam. You're the one love now.
Dynamics in Traps and Cameos
00:18:52
Speaker
i remember, right? It's like Brad and Ryan.
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah. but it'd been funny, ah like, this is peak 2010 time, so it'd been, like, Chad and, yeah like, Daryl. Yeah.
00:19:09
Speaker
So there's so is that trap that kind of sets everything off, and then the other standalone trap is ah we get we get the cameo from the late Chester Bennington of Linkin Park, who um is the leader of, like, a white supremacist group.
00:19:28
Speaker
Yep, like a hate group. A hate group, and then... And then he is glued to the seat of a car, and then all of his cronies are kind of... Arrayed around this garage, and then if he can't pull himself off the seat and rip his, like, back skin off and pull a lever, then they all get killed in this, like, crazy chain reaction. And boy, was it a crazy chain reaction.
00:19:53
Speaker
Yeah, which I read apparently they wanted to get like they wanted to do this like trap earlier in the series, and then producer's like, no, it's it's too brutal, it's too crazy. And then apparently, like for some reason, they just decided, alright, it's fine now.
00:20:06
Speaker
No explanation. They're just like, yep, it's fine now. Well, society is like moved on, and so they go, that's the new normal.
00:20:15
Speaker
So it's not as bad, I guess. It's like, okay, well... or Or it's like, oh no, this happened in real life, so now we can reference it in a movie.
00:20:26
Speaker
I mean, as far as like violence-wise, I think it'ss i mean it's it's on par with like anything else we've seen in the Saw franchise. It's not like yeah's it's like a yeah crazyze it's not like egregiously violent or insane.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. I just think maybe they were like, someone could superglue someone to a car. ah like Like, yeah, like a Beavis and Bios situation of, like, someone will try some idiot will try this.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah. And then, also believe, like, Death Proof came out, like, a year before this, or two years before this. And that had, like, a car hit people and do kind of, like, horrible and speakable things.
00:21:07
Speaker
So, they just kind of incorporated. Like, if you think about it, a lot of the Saw things are classic... torture or but medieval devices. Or just sort of like twisted technology where it's like you have basically this mechanical horror machine and car isn't that?
00:21:31
Speaker
like It's just a car. i I love the little detail that the tape is like an 8-track player the car. it's It's automated. It's slotted in, which was interesting.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, the entire car the entire car is like automated. like the gap like The gas, when it like goes off, Chester has no control over that, and then like like and then yeah like the 8-track tape is pops it in. which i can you could you Could you record on an 8-track?
00:22:03
Speaker
I guess you could, but I've never heard of that. track of yeah but you need ah like another like a recording studio to put... yeah like 8-track on. because because Because John is like obsessed with like old technology.
Technological and Setting Inspirations
00:22:14
Speaker
He uses like VHS tapes cassette tapes, but 8-track is like at another level. It's going old school.
00:22:21
Speaker
It's not totally nuts, but I feel like it's easier to find, at the time, 8-track recording stuff just because no one was looking for that. But it's only used like this. you know Can you imagine if Jigsaw's whole thing was 8-track players? Mm-hmm.
00:22:39
Speaker
I could see that. Like, now that's a... That's something. It's weird to kind of find a... Like, just find a car that has a cassette player. I'm sure there's, like, a million of them out there. and heavyavier like Yeah, but I think because, like, in that muscle car, there's a very specific muscle car that... Yeah. I think... Okay, so I don't know if he retrofitted the muscle car that was already the, like, chop shop, or do you think he brought, like, a car there?
00:23:08
Speaker
Or, like, Hoffman just, like, just wandered around the little junkyard, like, until he found a car to get, like, he's like, that one's good. Because in, like, this, like, giant, like, junkyard auto body shop setting.
00:23:23
Speaker
So he probably had, like, his pick of, like, any car that he wanted to use. Okay.
00:23:32
Speaker
But obviously, that yeah, that would that one goes bad. Everyone gets, like, like horrifically, like, think I think part of that one is, like, the guy who's, like, hooked up to, like, the trunk, and, like, his lower jaw and his arms get ripped off.
00:23:47
Speaker
but then And then he, like, that that body, that comes into, like, play later on. Yeah, it's funny because there's this whole clever, like, okay, maybe not c clever, like, an overly engineered um plan that Hoffman has, where you know, i guess we'll get into it soon, where it's like, this is like, because it seems like not connected to anything.
00:24:10
Speaker
This whole, like, that whole skit. It almost seems like it was to the viewer, just like, hey, here's like a traditional Saw moment. Yeah, one-off game. And we never get the whole, like,
00:24:23
Speaker
and we never get the whole ah like Hoffman talking to anybody or sort of like the the cops coming in later and then kind of piecing it together. Because sometimes they do that in the other Saw movies where they come in after the incident and they kind of understand like what they did. And then it would have been a clever twist of like while they kind of flash back and then it flashes forward where that was all like a giant ruse.
00:24:52
Speaker
Because it was. It was just like a very over complex thing to Basically, equivalent of like, opening a door. Yep.
00:25:03
Speaker
But, I mean, if you just watch, like like us, you just watching it linearly, and I always wish they can kind of re-edit all these movies together, so it's, like, almost like a Saw, like, the the, like, Saw saga.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah. The 12-hour-long Saw saga. Mm-hmm. But like even some of the shots, if they re-edited, if they did kind of like a lot of the... like okay To be honest, I think because they did Saw 3 and 4 as one continuous movie, right like it it was like the the events are happening at the same time.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah. And then 5 is the one where it's like, well, here's an ending, but... ah there's still more now that they got rid of Kramer.
00:25:57
Speaker
And at least Kramer's plan was brilliant in that, ah where he sort of just put the pieces all on the board, I guess. And then he's like, wow well, I'll have contingency plans in case this goes was out of control.
00:26:10
Speaker
But he never planned for like a copycat Saul killer. Or maybe he did. We don't know.
00:26:22
Speaker
i don't Did you think he expected Amanda and Hoffman to work together? And not like go to war with each other? No, he he knew that...
00:26:34
Speaker
um
00:26:38
Speaker
He knew that Amanda would be bought. I guess she wasn't committed to the whole... like you know follow the whole path because like when she was shot he sort looked disappointed and sad
00:26:59
Speaker
well her because that was the like one of the twists in three was that it's like you were actually being tested to demand you needed to keep someone alive instead of killing them but then you find out that hoffman like gave her a letter that's like, I know you your boyfriend smashed Jill in the stomach and caused a miscarriage that killed John's son, so you have to kill Dr. killed under Denlin and that will kill John.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah, but she feels guilty about that because she just would rather like that Kramer dies than face the consequences. But then I think Hoffman, I mean, I think ah Kramer knew, right?
00:27:44
Speaker
Uh, maybe, was that, what was that? don't i i can't remember if that was like, was that a reveal that Jill, like, did Jill know that? Or like, they, they both knew that or something.
00:27:54
Speaker
I don't know that, that, that's, it's not, I guess a plot hole. And then I can't remember that was like the alternate alternative motive like him, like putting Amanda in the bear trap to begin with.
00:28:09
Speaker
because the original i thing was like, oh, you're ah like yeah you're a drug addict. You need to overcome you your drug at your drug addiction by like escaping this reverse bear trap. And you have the strength to kick drugs, I guess.
00:28:25
Speaker
I guess.
00:28:29
Speaker
Because that was yeah cause that was like
Legacy and Evolution of Jigsaw's Methods
00:28:31
Speaker
John's whole thing. is was like If you make it through this, you're a drug addict. You're you know you're you're like a drug addict you're like you you have some weakness, and if you get through this, you'll be a stronger person, so I'm helping you.
00:28:44
Speaker
You're missing a piece? That was the whole, like, it's like the the whole jigsaw thing. They stopped doing that. They stopped doing that, like, two movies ago. Yeah, like, cutting it cutting, like, the piece off people that didn't make it through the traps.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, because that was, that's the entire reason he's the jigsaw killer, is that he, like, cut a piece off, it's like, they're missing a piece, they didn't make it.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah, and Hoffman's like, fuck that. I don't have time for that. That's why I murdered these people. yeah That was, like, sort of the main purpose, but then that completely went out the door.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah,
00:29:30
Speaker
yeah cause because seems like it seems like Hoffman is just, like, he just wants to inflict pain and, like, murder people. gets' like ah all He's trying to do vigilantism, and he also so doesn't want like regulations, because that was the thing, I guess, with Gibson.
00:29:46
Speaker
It was just like, ah, you don't believe in this, so we'll be enemies, or rivals, and and I won't see you for a while. a while but Yeah, that's like trying to give like Gibson like this history of Hoffman to tie it in more in the final movie. like The movie that with the characters introduced they're trying to like give him like this this backstory tie it to Hoffman. It's just so ridiculous.
00:30:09
Speaker
I don't know. Gibson, our fan favorite. No. and This was like Game of Thrones, and which I think around this time was like, you know, people were getting used to characters and then like having them kind of exit off soon.
00:30:23
Speaker
audience I think you have to what started the next year. Right, right. No, ah like two years, but at least in the books have been happening. Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, you would figure ah you would know not to introduce such a late in the game character who is supposed to be like the protagonist, I guess, if it's not like a dual, another type of like antagonist.
00:30:49
Speaker
Well, it's just like, ah it's it's such a huge step down because it's like, we started with Danny Glover and then Donnie Wahlberg and now we got, know, whoever, what's his name plays Gibson? Chad Dinella?
00:31:04
Speaker
So it's like, man, our detective quality has gone downhill.
00:31:12
Speaker
True. i I also, I feel like, i feel like, but like, Chet, he was, like, improvising, but like he wasn't really good at it. like ah Like, a lot of his lines. yeah Like, it stood out to me, like, that scene where he's in, like, the safe house with Jill, and he's just like, it's like, you're crazy.
00:31:27
Speaker
Listen, crazy. Let me tell you something crazy. it was like a PG, like, cop interrogation. Something you would see in a, like, a teen drama. Or, like you said, CW. Mm-hmm.
00:31:40
Speaker
Saw the series.
00:31:43
Speaker
Which I'm shocked never happened. It wouldn't be that hard. I think if but every episode is just the one trap and sort of like the anthology of how they got into the trap. I mean, you could easily do an anthology show.
00:31:58
Speaker
and then it's just like, there's always a twist at the end of like why the person's in the trap or... If they truly belong in it or... yeah
00:32:10
Speaker
like Also, like all all the detectives are just like, they either feel like like like the fake like the fake versions of characters we've ever had in the series, or like fake versions of like famous actors.
00:32:28
Speaker
ah Going more into that, what do you mean? but just like like The one that sent out to me was like ah like the like the tech but's a tech girl, who's like so i like the detective who like does all like the like emails and stuff.
00:32:43
Speaker
um like i i felt I felt like there she was like like ah like a ah younger, but like ah like a fake, like, Carl Gugino. Kind of. Okay. I see what you mean.
00:32:54
Speaker
it's it's all It's all just like, well, we it's like the the Canadian non-union counterpart of some of the other one. Yeah, it's the off-brand, local Walmart flavor.
00:33:08
Speaker
The senior Spielbergo version.
00:33:14
Speaker
Yeah, I can see that now. which Which makes sense when that you know when they all get like you know like absolutely like murdered later in the movie. So it's like, oh, weren't supposed to care about that at all. but That's fine.
00:33:28
Speaker
that's fine
00:33:32
Speaker
Well, they get that like squad gets picked off so easily by Hoffman, who is just channeling his slasher movie. Like it becomes a different person. Well, he he goes like, yeah, he goes like full Terminator, just like annihilates the entire police station.
00:33:47
Speaker
Which do they even hint that that he can just be like this killer, this unstoppable killer? With was just like a tiny knife. Yep. He does a lot of damage for that one knife.
00:33:59
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:34:03
Speaker
And then he then he finally uses a gun for the last guy, like, what is it, Rogers? And like shoots him in the eye.
00:34:12
Speaker
yeah, yeah i'll tell I guess it's like a homage, because like you know John had like his like wrist blades that he used, so that made it kind of like... The Jigsaw Killer always uses like a knife to to kill people.
00:34:24
Speaker
When he actually gets his hand dirty, he kills people with a knife. We wanted to make it personal.
00:34:32
Speaker
But Hoffman was just like a goddamn commando. Yeah. No no like punishment. He doesn't wear a mask, which I don't understand why they don't wear masks. Yeah, where's his pig mask? you should have been wearing a pig mask the entire time or something.
00:34:48
Speaker
but But by that point, he'd already send them like two videos. like Two MPEG videos. It's like a throwback to technology 2010. It's like Quickdive or whatever it is. and like They're playing his... like ah previously recorded videos. His, like, greatest hits.
00:35:05
Speaker
Where he's, like, he's he's, like, dropping, like, insanely cryptic riddles. He's like, go to the crossroads, where the crossroads end, and you'll find the truth beyond the, but whatever his, like, his clue is.
00:35:23
Speaker
but It's also weird that he's giving Gibson clues to find... guess ah every game did that. like They always like give the detectives like clues to like so they can find the game, potentially. but yeah because if they don't find it, they don't know what was going on.
00:35:37
Speaker
but it it's Usually it always turns out that's that's like a game itself. is like ah Detectives are have their own game that we're playing with them.
00:35:51
Speaker
You're in your own trap. You're in a ah new trap that that next to the trap.
00:35:57
Speaker
But that's part of the like scariness of the... like the the but like and I guess the ingenious thing where essentially he wants them to always be led to some other direction.
00:36:11
Speaker
So that's that's like consistent. And the police at this point should be very aware about Jigsaw traps. Yet for seven movies, they keep headfirst into them. like They keep barging into these traps.
Detectives and Game Consequences
00:36:27
Speaker
i think even I think in this movie, like the SWAT team that comes in are just like busting through doors and say, do not enter. literally just like like, there's giant red paint saying, do not enter this door, and they just bust through it anyway. Yeah, they they don't care.
00:36:41
Speaker
And like a door closes behind them and warned, and then they get gassed.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah, back but but back to... ah what try page family like his like game that he has to go through.
00:37:00
Speaker
So so he so he actually he has to be tested now because now he's actually in a jigsaw trap. but A real one this time. A real one. And he has to go through and try to rescue it's like his publicist, his lawyer, and his friend who convinced him to or gave him the idea to become like fake being a jigsaw survivor.
00:37:19
Speaker
which i love that first flashback where like you see him at the bar like getting the idea. he looks like he looks like he's cosplaying as Mark Wahlberg. Yep. He's like, oh man, his friends are like, all all these idiots, they could make a lot of money if they, you know, when i like wrote a book about or something. John Patrick was just like, yeah, that's a good idea.
00:37:41
Speaker
but going from what looks like just a bunch of, like, town drunks to then international, like, Saw Survivor publicity team. Yeah. ah How are they the only ones that need to cash in? I mean, it's very immoral, but...
00:37:56
Speaker
There was no like fact check or anything. Well, they never did never show him... like i don't i want i would like to see how he like gave himself those scars. like I guess he just cut himself or something.
00:38:08
Speaker
He just poked on his shoulders like some wounds and then that was it. like Where i found it really funny when you he was at the survivor group and there were people with like limbs and other detrimental things for them.
00:38:22
Speaker
And then ah because Bobby's the bestseller, he has the authority to tell them like your pain is valid or like Nah, you didn't go through as much as me. takes his shirt off and is like, these are my scars. These are my, like, it's like four tiny little slashes on his chest.
00:38:40
Speaker
and yeah You can get that by accident in, like, an ATV accident. And, you know, and then you get, like, the Saw 5 survivor who is just like, i don't have an arm. and I cut my own arm off. yeah Yeah, and then they're just like, oh, okay.
00:38:57
Speaker
And then that scene... This is our first big Gordon reveal, too. like He's at the meeting. Well, yeah, that's him and during Modern Times. But like Gordon is already like a bad guy like in the darkness. like yeah you know Just so sinister that how did they just not suspect Gordon as part of the thing? They're like, oh, Gordon, you you were you're like one of the longest time-saw people because...
00:39:23
Speaker
I feel like up until Gordon, like they didn't have surgical things, and then it's supposed to imply that because like Gordon's part of the Team Saw, um all the people had to get more like you know medical precise for certain things.
00:39:42
Speaker
Yeah, like yeah he he assisted anything that involved stitching or sewing things into into people's bodies or you finding doing traps. Yeah.
00:39:53
Speaker
And can you imagine that first Saw trap that Kramer designed without having the expertise? He was just cramming keys into people's like cheeks. We're just like making just trying to see if like all these unconscious people can hold on to like random pieces of metal in them.
00:40:13
Speaker
I think like if you think about it in Saw 2, two Everyone just had, like, numbers just tattooed or just painted in the back of their head.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah. And that didn't require, like, trying to do some surgery. They they literally just...
00:40:33
Speaker
See, that that to me was like a Kramer thing. He's just like, I don't know, I didn't have Gordon to help me for that, so I just panicked and wrote a Sharpie. Well, I mean, go back go back to Saw 1, it's like, a guy just had like crawl to crawl through barbed wire, that was like one of the traps.
00:40:47
Speaker
And then I locked two guys in the bathroom but with saws, and they had to cut their left foot off. Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying, it was classic, like, I couldn't believe this worked, like, traps.
00:40:59
Speaker
which Which is why then like Jigsaw fucks it all up because it's like, oh, actually there was a first first game that was like all the crazy elaborate traps that you expect from like the fifth movie or in this movie that's supposed to be like the first time Jon ever did this.
00:41:12
Speaker
That is true. Like, I still can't believe you built a giant blender.
00:41:19
Speaker
You built like a giant human blender and threw someone in it. And then he's like, he's just like, well, next game I'm just going to throw a couple guys in a dirty bathroom.
00:41:31
Speaker
And I'm going to lay on the floor for like however long, like an hour or however long it takes to like try to get out of the room. You really had to turn turn down that budget because he blew it all in like a farm silo. Yep.
00:41:48
Speaker
But I love it. I love that survivor group scene too where like Gordon is just like dripping with sarcasm. It's like, oh, it's such an honor to be in your promotional video. and then Bobby's such an idiot. like, oh, thanks. Great. Like, oh, my God. That's what I'm saying. Like, did no one not feel that? Like, you live in this world where everyone there's like a a known serial killer walking around and people are getting thrown into traps. Like, you should be really aware of like how people talk.
00:42:17
Speaker
Like Gordon's basically doing like the Christian Bale like, oh, good for you. Good for you, Bobby. He's like, thank you. Thank you. I am. Is Bobby dense? It's weird.
00:42:29
Speaker
Well, I mean, we we got to talk about also the other flashback scene where John shows up to his book signing with a baseball. It's like the best disguise the history of Saw.
00:42:41
Speaker
The backwards baseball cap and hoodie.
00:42:46
Speaker
Which, i when when did that take place? like I know there's like a meme of like that they're trying like people are thinking that he took a place like like years ago. it it can't have been that long ago, right?
00:42:59
Speaker
That book signing? Because he's still promoting his book in the in this movie. So, it had to take place before Saw 2, because Kramer was getting sick in Saw 2.
00:43:11
Speaker
Yeah. He was really sick. He was like, yeah he needed to like do oxygen and stuff in Saw 2. Yeah, so that couldn't be like one of his good days, where he didn't like, wow, I feel great, let me go to his book signing. and And when he put on disguise, it's Steve Buscemi, like, hello fellow kids.
00:43:31
Speaker
Which I think came out around the same time. like Probably, yeah.
00:43:37
Speaker
It's like, that's, like people, like the meme was just like, man, you believe this how they, like, before de-aging, this is how they, like, made people look younger? its Put a backwards baseball cap on their head. i mean, I believed
Bobby's Game and Consequences
00:43:50
Speaker
it. I thought he was some hip 20-year-old.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yep. And then he does, like, extremely unveiled threats of, like, like, I'm the Jigsaw Killer. I know you didn't survive my traps. going to kill you. And then now he's just like, here's your book.
00:44:03
Speaker
Thanks. Yeah.
00:44:06
Speaker
So yeah, Bobby bobby is an idiot. yeah
00:44:12
Speaker
And like that's not a surprise. like After trying to you know cash in, lie about this to a known like psychopath that's like you know building traps, how is Bobby not having like an entourage of armed forces?
00:44:28
Speaker
Yeah. like how's How do you not have like a bodyguard?
00:44:33
Speaker
He's not poor, so it's like... but yeah I'm just confused by that.
00:44:42
Speaker
And then, yeah, and then he just, like, utterly... Like, I think I read in the trivia, like, he's the only person in the software that just, like like, literally fail every trap or every game. And, like, everyone killed. but Yeah, everyone he tries to help just dies.
00:44:57
Speaker
Uh... And he just, I guess he blames the victims too. Like, he's like, why didn't you listen to me? yeah Especially the the first, like his, uh, was his his publicist where he's like, pull the key out of her stomach, but it's, but it has a fish, like a fish hook on it. so it's like ripping out her like esophagus. So she's, is she has to be quiet or else, uh, the spikes move into her throat.
00:45:17
Speaker
And then, yeah, he fails at that. And he's like, why'd you fucking be quiet?
00:45:23
Speaker
Why, why would you quiet when I was like ripping at this like fish hook up your throat?
00:45:30
Speaker
I guess because he's like he lacks empathy, maybe. Yeah. I also didn't realize the trivia on IMDb. don't know if you noticed on his book, like he has he has like like this like ah like acronym, SURVIVE.
00:45:47
Speaker
So it's it's probably of like is like is' like plant like you know his like ah self-help program. And then all the all the things on the doors are like his like acronyms. it It's like, understand your problems.
00:45:59
Speaker
realized yeah realize, like, connect with your loved ones or whatever. It's like, all those are, like, are like his, like, ah you know, like, self-help lessons. Yeah. Oh, was it? I know it was an acronym. I just didn't know what it was. and itd it'd be funny if during the trap, Saul actually reversed those acronyms or something. Like, it's, like, the opposite. So it spells out, like, fraud.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:24
Speaker
Like, welcome to my fire chamber. Then the next one is welcome to my, like, rain room. And then the next one's just like, welcome to my asset room. yeah Each door has like one of his like you know quotes, ah sayings on it.
00:46:37
Speaker
Which I don't know they're thematically tied to like the things in the room, because the like the traps are, like we said, like they're like like the three monkeys, like see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. So, kind kind of a mixed there's a mixed metaphor going on of like, corrupting his his like self-help program, but also the classic three monkeys thing.
00:46:57
Speaker
I mean, if anything, this is the weird consequence. Now that he survived this, he can write a next bestselling book about surviving Saul again.
00:47:09
Speaker
like how I failed everyone. This is the follow up to like his second book. Yeah, it's just like I. Well, technically he didn't fail. He survived.
00:47:19
Speaker
So it's survivor two. hmm.
00:47:26
Speaker
But yeah, of of like the of like the Bobby's tre like games, like which one is your favorite one, Chris?
00:47:36
Speaker
I'm going to say the the like the most one I think about, just because it's so like scary and and like visually just like they hang on it, is the like three pipes in the face one.
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just because the but trap itself requires Bobby to do a lift, like a press, and then it stabs your side.
00:48:01
Speaker
And I don't know if there's like a way to beat that besides disable the spiky part. Or wear something, like ah like a... I don't know, like jam the piece so it just kind of pushes you so you're not being stabbed.
00:48:17
Speaker
yeah or Yeah, or I guess you just gotta... like force yourself to the pain and like hold it. well Well, I guess it's also like the equivalent of that woman's weight too. Because it, the machine is like levered.
00:48:31
Speaker
So I guess the machine also is holding her, it's her body weight like pulling down and he has to push up to like counter the, the, the gear.
00:48:41
Speaker
But the device itself, just the, it's simple. It's just three spears and just pushes your face into it. Yep. at least the, I mean, as weird as it is, like, the other ones, like, they're helpless. Like, it's, I don't know, like, they're all, like, kind of nightmare-fueled, like I mentioned, but the woman with the thing going down your throat, that's gross, but... That's, that, that's so visceral, it's like, ugh, I don't want that one happening to me. like Yeah, yeah, well, the face one, i need none of them, but... Yeah, that, well that that one and, like, the, like, Chester, like, glued to the seat is, like,
00:49:18
Speaker
when you just hear like the ri skid ripping off the seat but that's not Bobby though but you know like was thinking about the Bobby try I think besides yeah the one the Chester one I think it's designed to all all all like even if they got to the thing it would have killed them all because that's part of the plane like see that one's rigged like It's vital for hoffman for Hoffman's plan for that to always work. So why even give him an option to try to steal? If anything, it would have been like they they got to it and then like whatever the like lever he had to pull, it was like fake.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah, fake or don't even have the lever. just like now Now you'll... It's such a weird... was like you'll see it like it' such a weird like like ah like like ah like progressive message. for jis like Especially for if Hoffman recorded that, using ah like a John voice thing, was like, you'll see, under our skin, we're all the same.
00:50:15
Speaker
yeah that would have been a fun, like, dumb... ah Like... Tongue-in-cheek. but That's literally what he says. That's what that's that's just like that's his like concluding thing of just like...
00:50:28
Speaker
you You judge people by their physical appearance. Now you'll see under a skin we're all the same. no I'm saying it would have been part of the trap where they maybe needed some evil guy that happened to be not like white to help them.
00:50:47
Speaker
yeah or or like yeah Or someone they they like you know bullied or tortured or something, is and then he gets to decide if they live or die o But see, they they kind of did that in the last ones.
00:51:00
Speaker
Especially the last movie. so yeah I think they didn't want to go in that direction. But, if you want to send a message about how like you should all work together regardless of race, this would have been that movie.
00:51:12
Speaker
But it just seems like everyone who is mostly killed, like, again, not to sound kind of singling it out, but I think the only minority that dies is like just that one officer who gets shot in the eye.
00:51:26
Speaker
And the rest of it is just like whatever city this takes place in, like Saulville. Yeah.
00:51:34
Speaker
The city. That's why I give credit for like at least a few of them where they had more of a multi-ethnic casting and, ah like little little diversity and then they involved teens and stuff. like it It wasn't just like a whole bunch of older people and then think Saw 5 or 6 had that one old guy that like walked into the blast of a shotgun.
00:52:06
Speaker
So and that was by accident. I don't think Jigsaw even planned that one. ah So that's why, like, in this, it seems Hoffman was very, like, I just want to get bad guys. or Or even just, he just wants to send a message because he didn't like like Bobby. Like, he really didn't like Bobby's PR team. yeah Yeah. We think well i think that that, like, Hoffman... i know It seems like that was, like, a John left instructions to, like, do this game specifically because like it's like because he hated Bobby for, like, pretending to be a Jigsaw survivor.
00:52:40
Speaker
Yeah, but I don't know, again, we we always question why did Hoffman try to fulfill this last thing if... Like, played, like, hit like he did, like, three more games after John died. yeah And then it's like, he was supposed to try to write his own legacy of this, but he still was like, oh, you know what, for old time's sakes, let me fulfill, like, Kramer's last wish.
00:53:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:53:04
Speaker
because because Because Hoffman's only in it because Kramer blackmailed him because John found out you because Hoffman did like the pit in the pendulum trap that was unwinnable and tried to blame that Jigsaw and then Jigsaw found him is like, you work for me now.
00:53:20
Speaker
And then they had a really great partnership considering how over the years they did things. Hoffman was like, oh, I i i like this. I'm in. I like killing people.
00:53:38
Speaker
But ah what did you think about the last trap, the brazen bull?
00:53:45
Speaker
Well, it's kind of two traps in one because, yeah yeah, you got the brazen bull, which is like a classic. It's like a Roman torture device, I think.
00:53:55
Speaker
I think they they still use the medieval times. I think was that originated in like ancient Greece or something. was like Yeah. They stuck people in like ah like ah like ah actual like carved like a metal bull and then put it over a fire.
00:54:07
Speaker
yep Yeah. But then um it's also... Bobby has to do the trap that he said he survived, which is like... Put hooks in his pectoral muscles and try to climb a chain and then connect an extension cord together to free both him and his wife.
00:54:25
Speaker
You know, he could have lied... In the original, I think it was just he had to put the extension cord, there was no survivor, right? like It was just him doing it to get out of the trap. Yeah, he he said he had to climb he had to climb and then...
00:54:40
Speaker
i I forget what his, like like, what the end goal was. just had to climb to a certain point and then like pull pulled like the hooks out or something.
00:54:52
Speaker
But then i think I think Hoffman added, they added, like, the like you have to get up to like the extension cords and plug them in, and then your wife will be ah freed.
00:55:03
Speaker
i mean, to be honest, it almost worked. Yeah, I mean, he he's almost there, and then, like, those like Those hooks explode out of his chest and he falls down. Because i don't think your chest can hold all your body weight like that. Especially when it's like a fresh wound.
00:55:20
Speaker
o Well, also he wastes so much time. like He wastes like two minutes just like talking to his wife. True. and because i also feel like, wait, was the hooks needed? He just needed to have the hooks in order to climb. But I feel like he could have tied a knot in the hooks.
00:55:37
Speaker
Well, the the Jigsaw video says that he needs two hands to climb the chain. But, I mean, do you? i mean, it's like a rope. Couldn't you just like wrap your legs around the chain climb the chain? See, we all watch sidekicks.
00:55:49
Speaker
So we know that trick of the holding your feet and pulling yourself up, like Chuck Norris has told in that movie. Yeah. it is it's it is It's more of like a like the the one the chain he's pulling is like a winch, so it's like pulling him up.
00:56:03
Speaker
As he's pulling it. feel like you just, I mean, yeah, you can just probably climb it like a rope and get up there. but Yeah, he didn't need to, like, stab himself and then go up. Like, him, it's like, he has pockets, right?
00:56:15
Speaker
He could have just attached it to his belt. Probably, yeah.
00:56:22
Speaker
But yeah, he he wastes, like, two minutes, like, he gets to i think he still has, like, four minutes left in the game, and then he wastes, like, two minutes just, like, talking to his wife and be like, I lied to you, I'm not a Jigsaw survivor. She's like, what?
00:56:32
Speaker
what are you talking about? And then he's like, yeah, I've, I've, I'm a fraud. I faked it It's like, why'd you lie to me? it's like, it cuts like, when he finally puts the hooks, it's like, he's like a minute, 30 minutes. ago say He like he opens up the store. He's like, well, I had a rough childhood and, uh, I was drinking in a bar with a but buddy kale there who like hanged because he like fell off plank.
00:56:56
Speaker
And then he said, she like, we can make a lot of money.
00:57:01
Speaker
Also, we're going to need a new PR rep. She is dead. And a lawyer.
00:57:10
Speaker
Yeah, but kept because he because he fails to plug the cord in, his wife gets dropped into like a platform she on drops down. She gets closer to her. as like ah It looks more of like a pig than a bull, but it's still so feel like a bracelet.
00:57:26
Speaker
Yeah, it didn't look like a bull. Now it it looks like almost like a like the nose of an airplane. I wonder if wonder if it's like part of like the whole jigsaw pig motif.
00:57:38
Speaker
Oh. They really should have done that. Made it look better like a pig. Because I think you only see like a few frames of it, or at least I did this time around. I kind of was like, huh? What? Oh, yeah.
00:57:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, like, if they also gave it, like, hair, because for whatever reason, the pig has hair the jigsaw. Yep. Mm.
00:58:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think no one, no one points out that like pig stuff is a big thing in the Jigsaw universe. I know the mask is a pig thing, but it's not like the cop, like no one else is like, all right, well, who's making these masks? Like what?
00:58:23
Speaker
Why the pig mask? You know, like what it's just they don't ever get into it. Well, isn't that isn't that part of like Jigsaw? like they reveal it's like Isn't the first game on a pig farm? Isn't that why he he's like the the whole pig thing?
00:58:37
Speaker
Was it? I think it was. i that That was like one of the stupid like reveals of like Jigsaw. it was like, oh yeah, like the first game is set in like a pig farm. but So I became the pig farmer man before I became Jigsaw?
00:58:50
Speaker
And I think it's... Was it the Kramer... Was it his family farm or something maybe? don't know. You know, you figure for, like, a serial, like, sadist game maker, your first thing shouldn't be in your own, like, family property, because that's how you get, like, caught, supposedly.
Investigation and Revelations
00:59:13
Speaker
Yeah, like, like don't don't base things based on, like, your family history. Mm-hmm.
00:59:25
Speaker
Yeah, um but I'm looking at the Wikipedia for Jigsaw right now. i yeah i think that was I think that was part of it. was like It was like the Kramer family farm or something. It was a pig farm. or they It was some stupid... like We can't explain why Jigsaw uses pig imagery.
00:59:43
Speaker
It's like, you don't really no You also didn't have to do this prequel, but whatever.
00:59:54
Speaker
uh, yeah so but so so by value fails he failed everyone um and then like that that's when we get like the the first twitch qui which is uh gibson is like he gives in like they all they find like the where the games being played he finds like the secret uh the secret room in like the auto shop that was like the original message because they find, like, a reverse bear trap, and then, like, a message where it says, like, Gibson... It's like, Gibson see the truth or something, or Gibson see something.
01:00:30
Speaker
And then it's actually supposed to mean, like, like smash this mirror because it's the secret room. Right. Which, um, was all, like, just, uh... Wait, wait.
01:00:43
Speaker
If I remember this correct, was the... the game played behind... the warehouse of the car of the parking lot or something? like Of the garage?
01:00:56
Speaker
It was the so like the homeless guy that attacked Gibson when he was a police officer. He he came from like this like mental institution that got abandoned. and that's like So that's where Hoffman sets the like the Bobby game.
01:01:13
Speaker
And that that was like his like cryptic clue. to like He sent Gibson to the alleyway where he got attacked. And then he's like, oh, I remember now, the guy that attacked me that Hoffman killed came from this asylum. The asylum's abandoned. Let's go there. That's where the game's being played.
01:01:31
Speaker
So, I was like... You know, so this game really hinged on... ah It hinged on Gibson kind of being a good detective.
01:01:43
Speaker
And then sort of remembering things about him and Hoffman. And thank God, it was, like, just Gibson on the case. No one else wanted to help, or, like, another force, another person. It was just... It's whoever's investigating the jigsaw, just one detective at a time.
01:01:58
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Never, like, a squad. And is isn't it weird that, like, hes ah Gibson's eternal affairs, but then he's, like, involved in, like, this, like... Like, he should be investigating, like... Like, like I mean, he is investigating Hoffman, but it's, like, he's, like, going out... Well, like...
01:02:15
Speaker
yeah turtleta He's doing like beat cop stuff. So yeah, it is weird because I feel like when they get Hoffman to the station, that's where he you activate the internal affairs person.
01:02:26
Speaker
The internal affairs person doesn't go on a crime scene. If you do, you work with the lead detective. And did the city go through like a budget crisis? Because it seems like internal internal affairs is now like working with the police department to then do their work to investigate the crime the saw crimes that the number one suspect is Hoffman.
01:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, because I don't think Eternal Affairs would like go out investigate homicides. they They're investigating their fellow officers' like corruption. like you You're not going out in the field unless it's involved to investigate whoever cop you're investigating.
01:03:00
Speaker
But he's he's like he's like the lead detective on this current Jigsaw game homicide case.
01:03:11
Speaker
he just he's like he just leaves. like He's like, lock Jill up this in this holding cell. It's fine. I'm going to go out and do everything.
01:03:22
Speaker
And like then his partner is also internal affairs? Or like, Rogers? or like i think like ron You know, it's weird. i think Rogers might actually be the local detective. of see Yeah, it seems like he's the homicide detective and Gibson is like the internal affairs detective. They say they say switch roles.
01:03:37
Speaker
They do, yeah. I'm like, this is weird.
01:03:42
Speaker
ah valid point. It's just like, just more loopholes in this movie. But again, just like how I watched this, I was like, I just can't wait for this to end. Like, just give me a coherent ending.
01:03:54
Speaker
And... Maybe we should just dive into the ending, because it's not really an ending, I guess. Where everyone gets murdered. like ah Gibson finds a secret room, but then like Hoffman rigged like a Breaking Bad-style machine gun up there. and like So he gets gunned down by two officers that went with him. And then, like you mentioned, like Hoffman sneaks himself into the morgue in the body bag of the one of the bodies that was like in the white supremacist car trap.
01:04:24
Speaker
And then busts out and so he just like murders everyone with a knife. ah And then finally finally gets Jill and so then throws Jill in a chair with the reverse bear trap and then on when like locks her arms so she can't like ah undo it. And then she she gets her face blown up by the reverse bear trap. I think it's the first time we ever see anyone get killed by reverse bear trap because Hoffman and Amanda got escaped theirs.
01:04:52
Speaker
Yep. So we now we know what it looks like finally after seven movies. Yeah.
01:05:00
Speaker
But what Hoppe doesn't realize is that killing Jill activates like the secret ultra secret protocol that John made. Which, you sends Gordon after him. The ghost protocol. yeah Of Saul things. Yeah.
01:05:16
Speaker
yeah so Yeah, because Kaufman is like, he blows up his lair. like He gets his go-bag full of money and guns and passports or whatever. And then he's like he's like he thinks he's clear because everyone's dead.
01:05:26
Speaker
and then he gets attacked by three pig pig-faced assassins or assailants. And then the big, the big bigger reveal of the movie is that Gordon has been a Jigsaw apprentice the entire time.
01:05:41
Speaker
And then we get all the flashbacks of how he became an apprentice.
01:05:48
Speaker
ah I just wish it was like just more integrated into it, because this feels like ah like a okay fan service, so we can just get to a coherent, like an actual plot that you like.
01:06:00
Speaker
Yeah, we can throw it back to like the original Saw, and have like saw original Saw scenes, or like extending what happened afterwards.
01:06:10
Speaker
It would have been funny if they digitally de-aged things, but they digitally did an insert, so he's always been in the background of the other movies, when it's like Amanda and Hoffman.
01:06:28
Speaker
Like, just cut cut to like ah yeah other side like ah opposite side of like a window or something, and Goren's looking in at them. Or he's like in the meeting, and he's like just shaking and saying, hmm...
01:06:39
Speaker
you know I like do appreciate that it makes sense that Gordon is doing the medical procedures to do the elaborate trap. So he's not in a innocent.
01:06:50
Speaker
He's not also coerced because I feel like he designed certain things to work with Kramer's vision for punishment and
01:07:01
Speaker
and continue the Yeah. ah continue the terror Well, so, so Gordon got, when Gordon left, escaped the bathroom, he cauterized his leg on a, like a boiling pipe.
01:07:13
Speaker
And then Kramer found him and like kind nursed him back the health and gave him like a fake leg. And then yeah, I guess, I guess like the, the experience, like, like Gordon got what, like a lot of stuff I was got where like, it's like, he got a new, like a new outlook on life and like realized like, like,
01:07:35
Speaker
was all on board with Kramer's like vision and like his like mission. and yeah So then he became like the the secret apprentice.
01:07:47
Speaker
And then he gets he gets the like secret video of John's basically like, if anything happens to Jill, act immediately. Yeah, which he did. it was like that night he assembled his like pig squad.
01:08:02
Speaker
which Well, it was it was on the news. so they announced on news like It's like, nine officers plus Jill Tuck are dead at the app atlanticta police station. So I guess that's how Gordon figured out Jill was dead. and then but then how do he how did he find Hoffman?
01:08:17
Speaker
I think he knew about the other lab, maybe. he Maybe he's been keeping tabs on that hideout. He knows like he knows every all the games, all the like all the plans, everything. like like I think it's kind of like the reveal of like like Kramer's just like, one of his lines is like, there's no secrets anymore. I'll tell you everything.
01:08:35
Speaker
you're my You're my greatest weapon. Because I'm also thinking that was one of the like Hoffman's, I mean, one of Kramer's ah like other secret hideouts and then Hoffman just used it.
01:08:50
Speaker
So it's like, okay, well, Hami's left. He's in a process of elimination.
01:08:57
Speaker
It's like, and Hoffman never used Gordon for any of his, like, because Hoffman didn't really do, like, medical traps. Or, like, you know, for, like, surgery. Like, he just, i did like, did a lot mechanical...
01:09:09
Speaker
ah like torture like, medieval torture devices. Which is interesting, because because I feel like, okay, if you're going back to what you need to be a jigsaw person, you need some sort of, like, mechanical background or engineering to get it, and because Kramer was a toy maker, was able to understand, I guess, like, that kind of mechanics and engineering.
Mechanics of Traps and Series Continuity
01:09:31
Speaker
Hoffman... I don't know. Did he did he literally like rebuild all Kramer's traps? Did he just like a free time build little gimmicks? I mean, he was able to make that pit in the pendulum trap, so I guess he does have like mechanical experience.
01:09:45
Speaker
But the pendulum trap, I think, is initially a so ah Kramer trap that he modified. Did he modify Because like I can't remember if he...
01:09:57
Speaker
Because think that was a jigsaw trap. I think he wanted he wanted to make it look like... He wanted to might even think it was a jigsaw trap, but it wasn't. It was his trap. And then he made it unwinnable. And that's why like John's like, I know what you did. like You tried to frame me for this murder, i that but it's that's how my games work. Now you you work for me because I'll tell us all the police that you're a murderer.
01:10:17
Speaker
Okay. like That does fall more in line.
01:10:25
Speaker
and And I think Hoffman's like... ah he's I think he's madete he's built everything since John died. so yeah He has like some sort of crazy like mechanical skills.
01:10:39
Speaker
But yeah, just just just didn't want to do like the... sew someone's eyes closed or sew a key into someone's cheek or that kind of thing.
01:10:48
Speaker
i mean, he did he did do the the key down the throat, i guess that doesn't really require like... surgery, you just gotta force the key down their throat? And the fish hook? Yeah, I feel like that one didn't require surgery, just like force feed fish hook.
01:11:08
Speaker
Yeah, how would, yeah.
01:11:11
Speaker
Like, get you know, getting it out is terrible. how do you how do you How do you get that in someone's throat? It's hard to, like, force it down when it's, like, all down to stomach. Uh... You could do, like, a Roto-Rooter.
01:11:24
Speaker
sort of like cable wire, some probably fiber optic thing. He just did. um
01:11:32
Speaker
Or he put it into a pipe and then maybe, yeah. Like, I think it's that. Like, I don't, it it sounds really messed up, but it's like you put like a PVC pipe, almost like a fish thing, and then you put it in.
01:11:46
Speaker
Also, I believe they didn't want to show it because like idiots would then do this. Mm hmm. Unlike other traps where, like, we we used a whole bunch of glue and ah and and a roadster.
01:11:58
Speaker
ah Some of them is like, yeah, no, like, you need a giant warehouse to build this trap, so good luck, kid, if you want to try to redo this at home. Mm-hmm. You need an abandoned zoo, you need a merry-go-round, you need juggerd. You need a vet of chemicals.
01:12:15
Speaker
ah One of them is you need a very complex volumetric weight system in order to get, like especially the ones that involve like fluids, where it's like, dump blood in this thing. Or or like, do you remember in Saw X where it's like, you need like ah bone marrow?
01:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, yep.
01:12:37
Speaker
So it's just like weird traps that um separate are they make sense. But then together it's like, this is a lot of duct taping.
01:12:50
Speaker
Mm
01:12:57
Speaker
But yeah, but back to the editing, so like, yeah, so Gordon finds Hoffman, and then they throw him in the original bathroom, which, it's hilarious about, like, at this point, there's but there's like, like, four bodies in there already that have been decomposing.
01:13:13
Speaker
at least, I think, I think like three, right? It's like, it's, um, what's his name for the first movie? And then like, Donnie Wahlberg got locked in there, right? and And like, one other person, I think, got locked in there.
01:13:25
Speaker
No, Donnie Wahlberg was locked in there, but he's not in the... He died somewhere else.
01:13:32
Speaker
His head got smashed by, like, ice blocks. Oh, okay. Okay, yeah. yeah He got out. Because I feel like, yeah, definitely there's, like, three bodies, like, skeletons in the in there when they throw Hoffman in there.
01:13:45
Speaker
Uh, there's how many skeletons? i feel like there's, like, at least like up two, maybe three? No, just two. Uh, it's... It's the the reporter and like investigator who didn't make it out from the first movie that Amanda drowned.
01:13:59
Speaker
And then it's the villain of two who went crazy. So he's in there. And that's it. yeah And then it's just Gordon's foot. Oh, yeah. Gordon's foot. Yep.
01:14:10
Speaker
Which I like love. He's kind of a long and looks like, hello, old friend.
01:14:17
Speaker
And then, yes, they lock Hoffman in there, and then there's a saw, then Gorin does like the big shot. He throws the saw down the hallway so that Hoffman has no chance of getting out of there.
Series Ending and Future Speculations
01:14:29
Speaker
And then he gets to do the game over and turn the lights off and lock Hoffman in there. And then just hard cut to credits, that's it. Hoffman's locked in the bathroom series over until seven years later.
01:14:42
Speaker
But it still doesn't continue anywhere with those two, which I'm like, if you're going to do it, just continue that. i'm like yeah we I'm upset because, again, that was it got excited for like a coherent, like, ooh, maybe a sequel and revenge thing. But we're just not going to get that for a while or maybe ever.
01:15:01
Speaker
Yeah, we've we've always talked about like there needs to be like another one after this one where Gordon is like the main villain now. With his two henchmen. Who apparently, according the commentary, are Brad and Ryan from the ah opening like Saw trap.
01:15:19
Speaker
I mean, they don't show it, but... but Yeah, so somehow were like, yeah, we're yeah we're we survived this. Now we're like, we're all in on this. Then they found somehow Gordon found them was like, you guys won't work for me. I'll put some pig at pig heads on. Like, yeah, sure, bro.
01:15:34
Speaker
See, does that mean that like Gordon built the first thing in order to get them there and all that? Like, cause it could be this interesting story where Gordon also is following more the traditional Kramer path and gives him a chance escape by basically ah like, you know, making sacrifices.
01:15:57
Speaker
And then would have been climactic where it's like, you get to basically the Hoffman like philosophy and the Gordon philosophy and they battle it out in traps. Like the they each put each other in a trap or something.
01:16:17
Speaker
Yeah, it just feels it feels like a waste of opportunity to like introduce Gordon as like this like its like you know, secret, the secret villain the entire time. And then like, it's just like, well, we're going to go back to ah the prequel, a prequel to the first movie and ruin like a lot, like a lot of like the, like simplicity of that movie.
01:16:35
Speaker
And also ah weird Chris Rock spinoff that doesn't have anything to do with Jigsaw, but it's in the universe of Jigsaw. And then finally, like, like course correct. And finally, like Saw X is actually like a pretty awesome,
01:16:47
Speaker
entry but because we didn't have to think so much we were just like enjoying the terror and then like we didn't we didn't worry about like what what uh what what does this mean in the other movies now is there another secret apprentice and now i think the plan is that they're i think i reboot it i don't think is is is what the plan is now like they they brought james wan back and they're like kind of do like a reimagining or reboot or something Because they going to do Saw 11, but then that kind of that fizzled out.
01:17:17
Speaker
And then I think Blumhouse already bought the rights to Saw, so now they're going to do like a new Blumhouse-backed Saw movie.
01:17:32
Speaker
i think I think that's what the last thing I read was like...
01:17:37
Speaker
Because Saw 11 was supposed to be out like already. It would have been out by now. It was scheduled September doesn this year. Well, that's not happening.
01:17:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:17:58
Speaker
they're bringing James Wan back, so hopefully they'll maybe if they reboot whatever they're doing, they'll be back the original Vision. Yeah. ah virtual vision
01:18:16
Speaker
But ah yeah, we'll well to see what the future holds for Saw. but
01:18:21
Speaker
Saw 3D, still, yeah, definitely lower lower on in the franchise. Definitely after after the the other attempts to kind of like continue the franchise, itself it's not as low as it was.
01:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think over time it's gotten a little higher, apparently, but that just means they're just sinking the average.
01:18:46
Speaker
yeah I always like to tell people that i one time, just said, you know what, screw it, let me do a Saul marathon. And, yeah, when you get to this, you're just like, oh, thank God it's almost over.
Cultural Impact and Viewing Experience
01:18:57
Speaker
Like, watching all these a row.
01:19:02
Speaker
But, yeah, it's not not an ah amazing plot. Like, they just could have... They really could took their time with the plot and really focused in on... I don't know, like the victims, but because we just get Bobby and, and like, he didn't do any, like if anything, it just shows you how like the world is weird, you know, like it just, Oh, he found opportunity did this.
01:19:27
Speaker
Um, but it, it didn't like, it didn't deter people from faring Saul. Like, you know, I, I'm surprised they didn't end with like a revolution of people going, Oh, like we need to rise up and make more traps stuff.
01:19:42
Speaker
And it seems like all this happens in the city. In that city. Yeah. ah no yeah It's only happening in this unknown unknown city. So I guess the rest of the world and the and surrounding areas don't care. They're like, oh, whatever.
01:19:58
Speaker
i mean, it's awful, but it doesn't seem like other other areas are concerned. Maybe that's the reason. It's like everyone else in that and this universe is just sort of like, oh, that sucks.
01:20:11
Speaker
I mean, the FBI gets called in like, eventually, but it seems like it's just, like, the local FBI agents who are assigned to the city.
01:20:23
Speaker
i would, i definitely would, like, is this, like, national news? Does, like, the entire, like, country know about, like, Jigsaw? Surprised they didn't. it I mean, it had to be, right? there There'd be, like, true crime documentaries. There'd be, like, yeah you Netflix shows. There'd be all kinds of stuff about, like... Oh, there'd be fanatical people.
01:20:43
Speaker
Yeah, there'd be, like, weird tours about this. Like, yeah I always think back in Boston where they have, like, the Jack the Ripper-alike tour that, like, it's not even, like, England. And it's, like, they have a Boston Strangler tour. And you're like, Jesus Christ, that's dark.
01:21:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, there'd there'd be like a bus going around to all different, like, all the like weird industrial buildings that, like, the traps were in. Like, this is this is where the, uh... I don't know, like, like the car like this is where the car smashed through the auto garage.
01:21:22
Speaker
This is where the bathroom is. That'd be like the finale of the tour, is like they like, they go, with like, where the bathroom is. It's like, we can't open the door because the lock is, like,
01:21:33
Speaker
can't break this door down, but there's bodies in there. Everyone take a picture. Take a picture with the saw door.
01:21:46
Speaker
Yeah, like i said, it's sort of that thing with like any kind of Batman universe. Just destroy all your abandoned buildings. As soon as like a building's like getting to, like oh, abandoned vacancy, just destroy it.
01:21:57
Speaker
It's going to be a hangout or a hideout of something soon. Yeah, there's there's too there's too many abandoned industrial buildings in the city for it to like, and like ah mechanical engineering, like equipment to build these elaborate traps.
01:22:16
Speaker
Like there must be just like, like factory, like abandoned factories and just all kinds of stuff like, like John's just like going around and grabbing all these equipment from. yeah He's going around like scrap yards and in like smiting places and and like forges and just grabbing all the stuff to build his like his empire of traps. Yeah, I think we talked a lot about Saul, but.
01:22:44
Speaker
ah like and it's hard to talk about the final chapter knowing that you you need a prerequisite of all these other movies and then it the final chapter doesn't apply to what they tried to do with it like later like what they try to band-aid certain things
01:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, because, like, yeah, there's there's a lot, like, Hoffman's, like, way more, like, but like meticulous in the methodical, and like, especially, like, the movie before this one. And it's just, like, this one is so simplified, just, like, I gotta kill Jill!
01:23:17
Speaker
yep She put me in a bear trap!
Character Development and Relationships
01:23:26
Speaker
But, uh, yeah i think i think and Overall, I think we're both still like huge Saw fans and we want to see, hopefully, a new one that's good come out at some point. Yeah, like like i said, this this movie, the the they the structure is still there.
01:23:42
Speaker
It's just that if they had their grand, I don't know, like, architectural plan of where these movies could go and then maybe insert better flashbacks or maybe, like,
01:23:59
Speaker
introduce like someone chasing after Hoffman in the prior movie, in like 6, because it seemed like only Jill was. No other detective was. I mean, no there was that squad, but all of them get killed.
01:24:13
Speaker
Yep. So at least have a survivor or something that's like, in this movie, he's got seeking revenge. So you know he's bending the rules or he's going after Hoffman in different ways.
01:24:24
Speaker
one are One of the flashbacks is Gordon like wrote him a note and says, like I know who you are.
01:24:29
Speaker
It's like, oh no!
01:24:34
Speaker
and but I think that was supposed to also be like before. That might have been Amanda.
01:24:43
Speaker
or that Or that was like a... I think that was like like before John like approached Hoffman to like make... like It's like, I know who you are. like you you were like you you're You're trying to copyca your your copycat the Jigsaw Killer, but I'm the Jigsaw Killer.
01:24:57
Speaker
Okay, that makes sense too. So, like, Gordon kind of figured it out and then told Kramer to do it. i could I could see that. like You know what I mean? like It still makes sense then.
01:25:17
Speaker
But, ah yeah, so I think that'll wrap things up this for this week. Happy Halloween again to everyone out there. Hopefully everyone has a fun Halloween. If you watch like the Saw movies or some other other horror movies...
01:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, just put it on Just put your TV out the window. Your neighbors would love it. Go on Hulu. they're all They're all on Hulu slash Disney Plus, which is such a weird concept. The most popular movies in existence are on Disney Plus.
01:25:42
Speaker
And then when it's like right after you're done watching, it's like, would you like to watch a Mickey movie? Like, no.
Future Content and Promotions
01:25:47
Speaker
Focus, focus.
01:25:52
Speaker
And yeah, so then that's going to wrap up our you know ah celebration of of a spooky season. ah We'll be back next week. i think we're trying to decide what we're doing for November, but it'll be probably not a spooky movie. It'll probably be a more traditional action movie or so or so some other movie not horror related.
01:26:10
Speaker
So come back and check check out what that's going to be. And actually, if you're hearing this, um if you want a slightly more spooky... You can compare. if you like if you want slightly more spooky stuff, our commentary for this month is out.
01:26:25
Speaker
ah We watched Night of the Demons, the 80s classic. um So you can watch it along with us, along with this episode, tip for double Halloween, you know, spooktacular.
01:26:38
Speaker
And over the site, we all have users up there. We got news, reviews, trailers. I got a review of Mission Impossible, The Final Reckoning. I got a view ah review review 4k of that so i have a kind of a late ah review we missed it in the theaters but it's out on physical media now and all of our all of our stuff is up there you know of our trailers and um everything else our game box is also going to be up very soon if you're hearing this the show we can see played for October and yes first I am Zach and we will see you next week
01:27:15
Speaker
For more from Everything Action, head to www.everythingaction.com. You can also find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash everything.action and follow us on X at Evie Action.
01:27:29
Speaker
We're also on Instagram and threads at everything.action. Find more episodes of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your at podcast app of choice and be sure to rate and subscribe.