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23: My Top Ethical Dilemma
39 Plays1 year ago
Just 3 best friends coming up with excruciating ethical dilemmas in order to give us sound bytes that would definitely tank us should we run for office ten years from now. Join us as we discuss cheating, murder, trolleys, organs, and vegetarians.
Follow us @MyTopEverything on Insta for updates! Email us at mytopeverythingpodcast@gmail.com with topic suggestions, comments, or questions.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Okay. So. I guess we'll just.
Podcast Introduction & Host Confusion
00:00:07
Speaker
I have a I have a funny bit. Okay. Oh, good. A pre-prepared, undiscussed, funny bit. It's actually Grayson's. Oh, good. Okay. I was like, I was going to add from Kara. Okay. So from Grayson, what's the bit?
00:00:23
Speaker
Um, Grayson was talking to his brother Garrett the other day and he apparently knows about the podcast or something and was asking about you guys. And he was like, yeah, so how is, uh, Kara, Mara and Marinara's podcast going? It's just so unfortunate when we have to introduce ourselves all at once to somebody like they don't stand a chance. No, they really don't.
00:01:02
Speaker
Why am I wasting away root cholera? Just let me, okay. Yeah, do it again and let's give us some energy. All righty, welcome to my top everything. I'm Cara. And I'm Mera. And I am Marinara. Marinara. We sound like Hannah Montana and Jim Carrey. She sounded like Jim Carrey when she said, all righty. Creepy, you gotta go. Sorry. My 45 minutes was ended early.
00:01:33
Speaker
You know that movie with the Princess Diaries, The Three Girls? And I'm Hannah. It's a story. Oh, I'm Janna. Yeah, I'm Hannah. I'm Janna. And I'm whatever Mandy. What's her name? Mandy. Mandy Moore. Mandy Moore is in it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we were giving just then. Stupid Cupid. Princess Diaries, like the one with the, is it Anne Hathaway? Yeah. You must be so proud of yourself.
00:02:03
Speaker
I'm proud of you for getting that right. Thank you. I'm really proud of myself, too. I was really like, I don't even know if I want to attempt it, but.
Top Three Moral Dilemmas
00:02:12
Speaker
Well, so our topic today is top three moral dilemmas. Does anyone want to talk about how they approached this question? Yes.
00:02:20
Speaker
All right, so I just moved back to Minneapolis and Mara and I live like a half mile apart now, which is awesome. Congratulations. It's a mile and some change, but thank you. I'm very happy for you. We're a half mile. It's fine. It doesn't matter. Apparently it does.
00:02:41
Speaker
If I were a half mile, where would I be? It would just be more convenient. Yes. So I just moved back to Minneapolis with Grayson and we I was so nervous to start the podcast again. And I was like prepping for it a week ago and I was trying to figure out what my top three ethical dilemmas were.
00:03:00
Speaker
Grayson and I went to the North Shore this weekend, which is like a two hour drive, one way, if not three. And on the way home, I brought it up and we talked about it for three hours on the way back. So the. Yeah.
00:03:16
Speaker
Basically, it was the trolley question and then it spun out into so many other directions and so much happened and a lot of my top three, as I wish I was actually four, a lot of my four are all sort of a similar
00:03:35
Speaker
environmental human impact related topic. Nice.
Handling Cheating in Friend's Relationship
00:03:40
Speaker
And I couldn't I could not figure out another way to go about it. And then I googled a bunch of stuff just before this to try to find some diversity just in case I got negative pointed for that. No, they're all intertwined. There's some that were like, I'm just going to point out a really dumb one. There was I googled like top ethical dilemmas or whatever, and there is some stupid fucking shit out there. One of them was like,
00:04:03
Speaker
What what would you do if you saw your best friend's fiance cheating on her the day of the wedding? Yeah. Yeah. Like, obviously, you're going to obviously. What the fuck kind of shit is that? You'd let her marry somebody. No, I think that one was like so silly. But I do feel like I have one that is adjacent to that. I think it's much grayer, which is like if you know that your best friend is cheating on their so.
00:04:34
Speaker
do you tell the person that you're not friends with, right? You only know them through your bestie. Do you tell them that your best friend is cheating on them? I mean, I think I would go to the best friend and I would say, listen, this is not fair to your partner. Either you tell them or I will. And how long do you give that? And how do you, like, how do you verify, though, that they did it? Like, how do you verify that they actually did it?
00:04:59
Speaker
They probably told me. Yeah, but they could tell you they did it and not actually do it, right? I think I would text the partner and be like, are you doing OK? And then if they were like, what do you mean? Then it would be like my best friend's a dick. I mean, yeah, then you're really making good. I mean, actually, I think that's a great text. Just a vague. Are you doing? Wait, wait, wait. What if they see what if you text them? Are you doing OK?
00:05:25
Speaker
and that they're like, they think you mean something else. So they're like, yeah, I'm fine. Thanks for asking. I don't think they would. My broken foot is healing, but they don't say that part. They just say, yeah, I'm fine. I guess you could say, are you doing okay with the whole insert best friend's name here thing? Or like, are you and X doing okay?
00:05:48
Speaker
No, because I don't want to ask my best friend's partner how their relationship is because I don't know. That's like a weird. Yeah, I don't want to have that conversation usually with them. I don't want to know their point of view, I guess is what I'm trying to say, because they're usually another man.
00:06:08
Speaker
And even, I guess, if my best friend is being the toxic one. When you give the best friend the ultimatum, because I have thought about this, like for me, like I would definitely when I think about this, I think like I would hope that my friends would tell me or not let that fly and make sure that I got told somehow. But there are two people in my MFA program who are a couple and they were in the year above us. And one of them started having relations with somebody in the year below us.
00:06:38
Speaker
Um, and so like everybody knew that this guy was cheating on his girlfriend in the program. And like, for example, I never talked to the girlfriend. Like I don't know her really, other than like two conversations.
00:06:56
Speaker
But I have a friend who's pretty close to her. So it was like, are you going to tell her like what's going on? Like she needs to hear this. Every other person knows in the program what's going on. I guess like having been kind of in some type of situation like this, like I didn't I didn't say anything other than like my friend to talk. Yeah, to talk. He already knew about it. But like asking my friend to talk.
00:07:23
Speaker
to the girlfriend since he actually knew her. I don't know what happened with that, but I think the bottom line is like we would all try to. The person would find out, however, that happened, TBD. Because there's all sorts of situations. But then how would you how would you verify for real? How would you verify that the person actually did it or that the other person knows? Because I agree with Mara actually asking, are you OK? Like you're involving yourself in something that is sensitive
00:07:52
Speaker
I, okay. The, how do you verify that your best friend is cheating? No. On their partner? No. How do you verify they told? Oh, their partner. Oh my God. Like, cause you could have been, you could give them the ultimatum, right? Like, Sandy, you better tell Jimmy Bob about this in the next three days. And if you don't, I'm going to tell Jimmy Bob that
Organ Donation Ethics
00:08:16
Speaker
you cheated on him with Brad Pitt.
00:08:20
Speaker
You have to team up with somebody because in this situation, I feel like it's beneficial to have a good cop, bad cop, somebody that is going to force that person or like
00:08:33
Speaker
basically to tell them, hey, you cheated. This is, you have to tell them. And then you need somebody else who's like, a spy, a spy or like, I've been, I'm on your side. This is crazy girl. Um, and then you get them to verify it because that person's probably not going to talk to me. That is brilliant. Yeah. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah. Okay. So you have a spy who like,
00:08:55
Speaker
doesn't shame the bestie who's like, oh yes, I totally understand, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the spy is like, by the way, did you tell him now that your super mean friend gave you the ultimatum? And then what do you do if the bestie doesn't do it? You just, how? How? I would call his ass. Yeah. What if you don't have his number? Why wouldn't I have his number? Well, you're not close to this person.
00:09:22
Speaker
but they're my best friend's significant other. I have this man's number. That's true. What if you don't know? I'm trying to think of like... Oh, I'm going to stalk his ass on group outing. I might not be invited because this person's blacklisting me at this point. But I find out about it and I show up anyway. Because of the spy. Yeah. And I stir the pot. No, I wouldn't do that. I'd be like, hey, you want to take a smoke break? I don't smoke. What about...
00:09:53
Speaker
I would find them on Facebook, Instagram. Yeah. Email, LinkedIn. Can I have your phone number or would you just tell them straight up on social media? Tell them straight up. Yeah. But then they have the text messages. No, that's what I'm saying. You'd be like, you have to call me. OK, so don't tell them straight up. Yes, that's a better idea, Kara. Good job. Yeah, no paper trails. Yeah.
00:10:17
Speaker
although it's obvious what you're doing. Like if it was found later, it's like, why did you to other, and then the best friend would be like, oh, so you're cheating with my boyfriend and you're out here telling me, it would be good. No, your best friend might do that. I hate when like in shows and movies, like the best friend doesn't believe that, you know, the bestie who's saying, oh, I saw your like significant other cheating on you. And they're like, why would you make up that live? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm looking at you.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's like sisters. Nobody. I don't think anybody in real life would react like I can't imagine going up to either of you or anyone that I'm close with and like telling them this information that I have and them accusing me of like lying or making it like why would I make something like that up? That's not even that's like joking about having cancer. It's on the don't list. Yeah, agreed. Be a better writer, Marion.
00:11:08
Speaker
What? Oh. Nice. I did enjoy that reaction though, even though I wasn't going for it. What? So that's our little appetizer. That could be my number one. It was kind of my number one, because of all the moral dilemmas, this seems like the one that most people actually might have encountered in their lifetime is not even discovering that your best friend's SO is cheating. What are the odds you actually find that out?
00:11:36
Speaker
people do get confided to all the time about their bestie.
00:11:41
Speaker
like doing something. And it's not just straight up us talking about adultery. So I like this question more. What do you mean adultery? That was on a bunch of lists when I was. It's like an ethical dilemma. I didn't really read those. Oh, oh, I will say whether or not you would cheat on your partner or what's the dilemma? No, I didn't read them. It was just on a bunch of lists. And I just like headline said adultery. And then I skipped it. Oh, I see. Wow. Are you like?
00:12:11
Speaker
I thought it was boring. Oh, okay. Are you really, really traumatized by adultery? Who in my life? See the word adultery and you're like, no, I can't even consider it. I'm so close. I'm so close to falling down that deep dark well of adultery. I can't even read about it. It's too tempting. I'm ready. I have also thought that maybe I would just tell the person,
00:12:39
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know that I would go through the whole, my best, like giving my bestie an ultimatum. Would you be mad? Would you be mad? Okay, here's a question. Kara confides in me that she got down and dirty with, what's an actor you know? Oh, would you? Jar Butler.
00:13:03
Speaker
What made you think of Gerard Butler? That's what her car is my only crush. So you got down and dirty with Gerard Butler. You tell me about it. Would you think that it was morally wrong of me? Would you be mad at me for going straight to Grayson, just cutting past you and telling Grayson like, hey, I saw Cara with my own eyes dancing up
00:13:29
Speaker
on Gerard Butler at the club last night and like they were making out. No, because she's probably already told me by that point. Let's assume she hasn't told you. Let's assume she's trying to keep it a secret. I was probably there. Oh my God. You're making this impossible. I was there cheering her on.
00:13:50
Speaker
But like, let's assume that Kara's trying to keep it a secret from you or is even going to try and see him again. Like, Kara, do you think you would be within your rights to be upset with me? Yeah, I think I think I would want the opportunity to do it myself. Hmm. I also I would feel better, I think, about the friendship moving forward if I gave you the opportunity to do it yourself.
00:14:18
Speaker
Because sometimes I think you just need a little pep talk to say those things out loud to somebody that isn't. Like my instant reaction, if you told me you cheated, probably wouldn't be anger. It would be like, I don't know. Oh, my God. Why? But yeah, why? I'm not going to yell at you. Yeah, we're having done it. Of course not. I think it's like I think as a best friend, a best friend situation, though,
00:14:49
Speaker
It's like how if one of our third friends, like if somebody in this, not in the circle told us a secret and then you go tell a different friend, like there's sort of a trust and an unsaid trust there that if I tell you, you don't get to go out and tell everybody. Wait, what do you mean by in the circle? If like if one of the nine of us, not the three of us, but one of the other six people in our close group,
00:15:16
Speaker
was confided something serious to one of us. You don't just go tell somebody else. It comes better from the person, you know what I mean? Yeah. And then it's like Mara was saying, you're sticking yourself in the middle of that relationship now. You're in my third party. Mara shouldn't have told me about your foot warts. I have foot warts. Bringing out my foot warts on the podcast. Wait, do you actually have foot warts? Not anymore.
00:15:46
Speaker
For the record? Same. Yeah, I got rid of it. I did everything I could fucking think of in the world. And now I am paranoid as fuck about being barefoot anywhere in the world. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. I had also before I understood how warts worked.
00:16:02
Speaker
Um, I thought it was dying on my foot and was going to fall off because it was like turning black. But the nice little doctor was like, no, it's just growing. Those are all the blood vessels it's taking over. Isn't that disgusting? The warts are literally the wart. They are the grossest fucking thing on the planet. And they hurt so bad to take off. Oh, my God. Yeah. I got I had like four on my foot and they numbed my foot and then they fucking chopped it off. And then I woke up and dropped off the warts.
00:16:32
Speaker
Well, part of my skin, yeah. Like my pinky toenail is weird. You gotta go deep. Yeah. Scraped. I woke up in the middle of the night because the pain meds wore off. Oh God, that's awful. And then I like couldn't walk right for a bit. Yeah.
00:16:47
Speaker
It's like it's one of those things that I feel like people just live through and they don't talk about. But if you are walking around with planter, is it called planters words, right? Yeah. With planters words, like you are having a terrible time. Yeah, it's embarrassing. It's disgusting. It's painful. They keep multiplying out of fucking no one. One time I got one removed by liquid nitrogen and then like four others popped up around the circle of fucking creator. Yeah, it's upsetting. And I wouldn't really hurt. They had to hold me down for that one.
00:17:16
Speaker
Oh, really? Yeah, because they stick that, you know, they just like stick it in and then it's oh, I hate it. Oh. Yeah. OK, well, I'm glad we got towards from cheating on your S.O. So doesn't everybody.
00:17:32
Speaker
I don't know who works maybe. Let's, what? Grayson's edition and then our transition. I just think about how Grayson the other day was like, do you think I should like jump on more and like be part, like participate? And I was like, yeah. And so I think that was Grayson participating.
00:17:54
Speaker
I can hear him laughing another. OK, let's let's move on. So, Mara, do you need to talk about how you approach this or can we just get into? Oh, my God. No, I don't care. Pippin Pippin is attacking the automatic feeder to get like one more soul. It's like honestly pathetic, but also very loud. Yeah, it's Orange County energy, dude. Yeah. OK. I.
00:18:27
Speaker
Is that him? Yes. It kind of sounds like someone's banging. Yeah, he's very rhythmic about it. I bet he has a little cat boner from it. Keep it steady. Is he fixed? You can still get boners. You think you stopped having boners after a vasectomy? I just, as a cat, I assumed that they don't get boners anymore.
00:18:53
Speaker
Why? What do you think they're fixing? What do you think they're chopping off? The balls. Do you know how boners are formed? Yes, but I just assume what, what, what a cat, what is the purpose of a cat getting a boner? I don't want to Google cat boner. In a house with all other boys. I don't know if I've ever seen one. I'm just going to be honest. It's pointy and red. It looks like little red, like lipstick. Yeah. It's like a dog one, but it's, it's even pointier.
00:19:20
Speaker
Thorns, not thorns. No, it's like a ballpoint pen kind of, that kind of look, like it comes out like that, but imagine like red on the top, like Rudolph the reindeer. Just look up cat boner. No, I'm not doing that. Flynn, come here. Why are you calling to Flynn? I'm just going to flip him upside down. I'm going to incognito mode for this.
00:19:43
Speaker
I did not. Should I send you this? I already googled it. Did you find it? Yeah. Do you see it? It looks like a dog. Yeah. So you still get one even though you're fixed. Just like how dogs get one. This literally looks like a crayon. There's only one anatomical picture on this and all of these Google results. The rest are like funny jokes. Yeah. A lot of jokes where the tail is, which is great. That's very pleasant introduction.
00:20:11
Speaker
I just need to point out that it's anatomical. Yes, anatomical. Yes, I skipped over it, but I thought you would hear you would be like, I can't believe no one calls me out for this anatomical stupid marinara anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Next time you're petting a boy dog or boy cat, sometimes when they're really happy, it also come out. So like you could give your boy dog or your boy cat a boner just by petting them.
00:20:40
Speaker
My top ethical dilemma happens to I believe this is hard because I'm like so torn. There's just so many things I could go on forever about. But the one I'm going to choose to talk about today is utilizing the organs of car crash victims for organ transplants.
Human vs Animal Life Debate
00:21:04
Speaker
How is that a dilemma? Even if they're not organ donors.
00:21:08
Speaker
Oh, oh, OK. This could be some information. And I struggle because I don't. That's not something I want the government to tell me is that I have to be a mandatory organ donor or you only qualify for not being an organ donor if you have this like laundry list.
00:21:28
Speaker
of diseases, because I'm sure there's also religious reasons why people aren't organ donors. Or they have a moral objection to being an organ donor. Yeah, but it's a lot of wasted real estate. It is. What is? Wait, what is that? It's a bunch of lives that could be saved if you were able to use them, use the organs of the recently deceased. Without permission from the individual or the family.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yes, because maybe it's a person that like hasn't thought about it or they don't have a driver's license or like, how do I know if a 12 year old is an organ donor? In another world, it would be that you would opt out of being an organ donor, not opting in. Yeah. Like, because if you feel that passionately about it, then you can opt out. But otherwise, yeah, then the default could be like harvesting in a good way. Yeah. I think given the situation that that is not the case, which is unfortunate,
00:22:28
Speaker
that I don't think that you can use somebody's organs without their permission. I know. I think there's been a couple of court cases. Well, because you don't because I'm complaining TV. My bad. A couple of Judge Judge Judy cases. No, that's reality TV. What if there was like a movement of people who like wanted universal ogre, ogre.
00:23:09
Speaker
Can you imagine? Shrek is life. Shrek is love. Yeah, but that's me. It would say like get into my swamp. Yeah. What are you doing out of my swamp?
00:23:23
Speaker
Like, let's imagine that there's a group of people who, like, want universal organ donation. And the way that the same people who don't believe in, like, universal abortion rights would be up in arms about the idea of, like, somebody dictating universal organ rights. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like it would be the same people who would be like, yes, we are anti-abortion, but no, you can't take.
00:23:52
Speaker
this dead person's organs. It's just so frustrating. In some cases, a dead person has more rights than a living, breathing woman. It is so angering. So fucked up. You guys know. But for my listeners, I work in the medical industry, and some of that is also just thinking about animal testing. And so I feel like also this would help with some of that burden. I'm not saying do experiments on dead car crash victims.
00:24:21
Speaker
or murder. I mean, well, they do that, though. They do do that. Like people who donate their bodies to science and stuff like that's literally like.
00:24:29
Speaker
That's what we can do with the ones that have been out too long and aren't viable. Exactly. Straight to science. Straight to science. I feel like that's a great use of a body. It's such a weird conversation. I think because you're going to get more accurate results if it's a human body versus a mouse or a monkey or whatever, then it's saving a poor creature from testing. Like somebody that
00:24:56
Speaker
currently has consciousness versus somebody that doesn't have consciousness. I just think it's a waste of resources. Yeah. Because those lines or those lists of people waiting on organs are really long. It is also really hard for me personally to
00:25:18
Speaker
empathize with the idea of it being a religious object. I don't know. I have a hard time understanding the objection in a way where I feel like it's a legitimate objection to not want to be an organ.
00:25:36
Speaker
I feel the same way because some of these that I wrote down, I was having a really hard time seeing the other side of it and I had to really, because I'm like, that's just not true.
00:25:51
Speaker
At all. Yeah, I guess if there's anybody who listens to this podcast who has a firm stance on why someone wouldn't want to donate their organs, then I'd definitely be interested in hearing about it. Because for me, I just don't understand. You're gone.
00:26:10
Speaker
You're you're done. So I'm not going to use it. But I think some people believe in the afterlife and that you're trying to ascend to some higher place or move on to the next life or whatever. And I wonder if part of it is you have to have a whole body or something like that. I don't know. I feel like you're extrapolating there. I don't think we actually know that there's anything that says you have to have both your kidneys to get into heaven. Like, I don't know that there's actually. Yeah, they I don't think that's true, just because like they also believe in souls. And that's what goes up. Yeah.
00:26:41
Speaker
Well, are you saying that there are religious objections to Oregon donors? I don't have the facts in front of me, but I wasn't aware of people who don't want to do any type of modern medicine. You know, those people probably for religious reasons probably also don't believe in organ donation. But yeah, again, I don't know. One second. Let me look up reasons to not be an organ donor.
00:27:06
Speaker
Nice. Nailed it. I was so close. You had to slow it down to flip the letters. OK, so the most common reason cited for not wanting to donate organs were mistrust of doctors, hospitals and the organ allocation system. A belief in a black market for organs. This isn't China. We are just. I understand that. Don't agree with it. Deserving this issues, the idea that somebody
00:27:34
Speaker
that your organs might go to someone who brought on their own illness and therefore is a bad person, maybe.
00:27:43
Speaker
One of the most surprising findings is that religion is offered far more often as a rationale for wanting to help sick people through organ donation than it is for not wanting to donate organs. So I guess religious people actually, maybe they're more likely. It says, this is from pubmed.ncbi, no religion formally forbade donation or receipt of organs or is against transplantation from living or deceased.
00:28:12
Speaker
donors. So I'm just like making shit up left and right is what I just did. But yeah, I guess so I guess there are some people who are fighting to change the opt out because they're saying that inaction and the opt in can lead to people who want to be a donor not donating. Whereas if you changed it to opt out, but it says in contrast, in contrast, inaction can potentially lead to an individual
00:28:41
Speaker
like who doesn't want to be a donor becoming a donor. So I guess it's like stickier if you do it that way. It's like the individual versus community argument. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard for me to like give validity to these reasons to not be an Oregon donor. Just seems tragic to me. What other things do we opt out of? I think generally in the U.S. we are an opt in sort of culture. So I feel like that would be the first and like only situation where you'd have to opt out.
00:29:12
Speaker
marketing, but that's all in like the public sphere, but the Oregon donation system is a pop like, I don't know anything about it actually, but I would assume it's a one giant list per hospital. I'm like kind of per region. I think cause the organs can only travel so far.
00:29:31
Speaker
One of the Google questions on organ donation is, can I donate my heart while still alive? Who is asking this? Probably some poor depressed child. I know. And then it's just funny to me that, like, this has to be answered seriously. The person was like, the heart must be donated by someone who is brain dead, but still on life support.
00:29:57
Speaker
Gosh, just imagine how many hearts out there are wasted. There's an author that died. So Echo Brown, yeah, recently passed away and basically she had kidney failure and she was supposed to get a kidney donated early next year, but she passed away before it happened. It's just like that where you're on a list for so long and if there were more
00:30:27
Speaker
Organs then. Yeah, because also it's not just about like, is there an organ available? There's a ton of. Yeah, like blood matching and yeah, yeah. OK, should we move on to Kara's number one?
00:30:43
Speaker
Yes, I'm still toggling. So it stems from when Mara, Lucas, Grayson and I were driving down to Tahoe for my birthday one year and it was like a 13 hour drive one way. And we talked the whole way there and the whole way back. So it was a lot of different conversations going on. And one of the things that we started talking about at one point was
00:31:03
Speaker
importance or yeah, the importance of human beings versus different animals. And I very much fell on the side of a human being does not have more value than an animal and everyone else was on the other side. And so when we were talking about prepping, when I was prepping for this podcast and Grayson and I were in the car talking about this,
00:31:24
Speaker
We went through all sorts of trolley situations because I was like, there's got to be one where I can prove that the human can die and something else has more value. Like I got it. And so I came up with so many other I was like, what about 10 chickens and all these different ones? And I think I found the right one. So the trolley question.
00:31:43
Speaker
There is a trolley and there is a human being tied to one of the tracks and a parallel track has a silverback gorilla tied to the other one. And you can choose whether or not the trolley is going to hit one or the other, but it is going to hit one of them because you can move the lever and change the track. So which one is it going towards?
00:32:05
Speaker
Cause in the trolley, cause the trolley problem is about like, do you have, like, are you responsible for inaction? Because the idea is that in the trolley problem, the original one is that it's going towards five human beings tied to the track. You can pull the lever and decide to go off onto a different track where you will actively kill one person. So you are trying to decide whether you're going to do nothing because that's the way destiny intended, or are you going to pull the lever and
00:32:35
Speaker
Choose the five lives over the one life. So where why I mean, maybe this isn't the same but so where's the it's a trolley headed for the gorilla We're gonna say the human for this discussion
00:32:48
Speaker
And for the record, silverback gorillas are very endangered and there are only a small handful of them left, but their population is strong enough, unlike white rhinos, which was another one that I played with, which didn't survive. I don't know that the trolley would kill a white rhino. It's a really big train. You would probably be the one who got fucked up with the rhino.
00:33:14
Speaker
If the wait, what's that song? If I'm in the woods with a bear, pray for the bear. Yeah, that's the song. That's that one song. This is not the first time this has come up on this podcast and no one has fact checked her. No one has stopped her.
00:33:33
Speaker
Do I believe that there is a song out there that has that? Sure. Am I going to spend my precious valuable moments looking it up? No. I just googled cat penis. But that was specific. What am I going to what am I going to look up? Song lyric.
00:33:50
Speaker
Pray for the bear? Like what? Like it might not even be what she's thinking of. It is. We'll have Grayson work on that. That's what he can do while he gets up and does the laundry, I assume.
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, he definitely sounds like he's walking around. So, Kara, so you considered white rhino next to that. It didn't work because Grayson said, what is the viability of the species if there's only two left anyway? So it didn't survive the test. There was also like 10 humans versus one. I figured this is the best. OK, this is a one to one ratio. It's a one to one ratio male silverback gorilla.
00:34:32
Speaker
A human in their age, like a 31, 32-year-old person. And so silverbacks are endangered, so each one is kind of vital. But there's way more than one human. What if the human is someone you know? Exactly. In my scenario, you don't know them.
00:34:55
Speaker
I really, I really manipulated the situation. And your scenario, it's just some random person. Some 30, 30 year olds. Do they look like me? Can I see myself in them? Is that going to bother me?
00:35:06
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, sure. No, that's not a good thing. They're like in their third. That's why I said they're in their thirties. It's like it's somebody that's, you know, got life experience. They still have like in our eyes, like, quote unquote, a future in front of them. Right. So there's like so I can kill the human. It's going to kill the human unless you save the human. Unless I take the lever and kill the endangered silverback gorilla. Is this going to like. Doom them to extinction if I do this.
00:35:34
Speaker
It's a great cue. You don't know. You don't know. Okay. So this is like, we're imagining in real life, I'm like there and I'm like, Oh shit, I don't have time to call somebody to figure this out. You don't have WFF on the phone to be like. So we're assuming I know what a silverback gorilla looks like. And I'm able- And not just a regular gorilla.
00:35:55
Speaker
And that it's endangered and that it's vital that it lives. Yes, you're interesting. Our regular gorilla is endangered. No, I don't know the answer to that. I'm going to. No, I don't know. I make him. I don't think so, because it's like, do we need a silver bag gorilla? Is that right?
00:36:14
Speaker
Some of these endangered species, man. It's like, oh, this one has a yellow beak. This one has one red feather. Like we have to keep all of these. Yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You are such a human being right now. For the record, for the record, I think that if I had been in the car with you to Tahoe, you wouldn't have been alone. I do think I mean, the three of us have had this conversation. Have we?
00:36:37
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we've had a version of this conversation, which was, remember I was like on the highway and these two birds or like a bird flew in front of me. I was very bent out of shape about it. And then Kara was like, what's the difference to you between that and like Salami, you're eating at this winery right now.
00:36:59
Speaker
And so that was like the discussion which i do still think there's a trauma to watching an animal die in front of you that like i do not get from the removed.
00:37:09
Speaker
like meat part of things, like, and that was probably what was bothering me more. But so it's slightly different conversation, but I don't remember that conversation. I do.
Ethical Reflections on Nature
00:37:20
Speaker
You were it was on the way to Jen's. I remember so specifically, it was like there was a little hill. It was in Iowa. It was for Jen's birthday. We were going to a winery. We sat on a picnic table in the sun. Was I in your car? I was trying so hard to like calmly talk about it because I felt so strongly about it. Yes.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah, I remember because in your the conversation also divulged and you feeling like you couldn't have these conversations with people. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I would say that like for me, like I have lots of troubles. Like mine isn't just animals in general. Mine is like I have real trouble with like killing bugs. Like I don't like and it's not because I'm scared of bugs. Like there was the other day there was like a silverfish
00:38:03
Speaker
at the place where I worked and I was like, I didn't know what to do because I know like they shouldn't really be hanging around the house. It's not my house. Like I'm the only one who sees it, but also I don't want to like.
00:38:14
Speaker
kill it, but I also don't really want to pick it up and have it scurry around me as I like take it outside. And I was like, what do I do in this situation? Do it? Like often I just ignore the bugs. Don't tell Matthew that he'll be really mad. But I started to kill cockroaches because there's so many cockroaches in LA and like we have this huge gap under our door and they come in, but I don't enjoy it. I feel very, very guilty every time I do it because I'm like,
00:38:40
Speaker
What has this bug done? All it did was exist. And I'm like killing it for existing. And that's like a bummer. I think that's also the other thing. Like when you when you eat something with meat, like it's harder for me because I'm like, you're getting a benefit out of it. You know, it's not like it died. In my opinion, it's not necessary that it's died pointlessly, but I mean, it lived to die, though, and suffered to die. Yeah.
00:39:06
Speaker
depending on where you got your products from. Like I only get my eggs and my chicken from the grocery store from the humane ones now, but those didn't always exist. No, and they're usually a lot more expensive and they're not always at every grocery store.
00:39:23
Speaker
I feel like I'm out here playing God every day in my apartment with bugs. I ignore the spiders. I do not ignore the silverfish. Those things are the one bug that make me scream. I'm always afraid I'm going to miss them.
00:39:41
Speaker
What do you mean? Like you're going to try to step on them and then they'll run away. Yeah. Yeah, I miss them. And then I have to move in a really fucked up way. They have too many things flying off of their body. I don't know if they have like extra wings on the back or something. There's just like so much happening and they move. Yeah. Yeah. And I also recognize that I don't I haven't really thought.
00:40:03
Speaker
about animals as being creatures near or on the same level as humans until like 2012. So I'm still. Yeah, but this conversation sounds like to Tahoe was definitely after that. Yeah. And I'm just not period. Sorry. And I'm saying that you guys have like like 10 years on me for like thinking about these things. Yeah.
00:40:30
Speaker
I was 13. Yeah. And I went vegetarian. So. I don't know. I'm I'm killing the silverback gorilla in this trolley question. I think that I want to do anything. I think that I think that one's actually easier that that it's an easy one to be like passive. It would be harder for me if the if it were reversed and it's like, am I actively contributing to the end of a species?
00:40:59
Speaker
by ignoring. But I mean, I guess like, we all however, hard we try, we are actively contributing to the end of species every day with like, buying stuff from Amazon, etc, etc. Like, I mean, so it's kind of like already the same. Yeah, there's not really any large
00:41:18
Speaker
protests on the daily for Shell or I think it's kind of the question, too, of like, if you if you had to kill your own beat, would you do it? You know, there's like I'm currently reading Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmer. And she's making me think that I don't say thank you to the earth enough. And I'm not like I already feel like I'm not slowing down enough. But she really calls out like this whole chapters in this book about how you're not no one says thank you.
00:41:47
Speaker
to the earth for what they're giving us. I've thought about praying in that way before every meal and I've thought about it a lot and I don't know why I've never done it. It's hard to remember or start that habit. You could start a timer or something while you're cooking so that way it goes off right before you eat or whatever and then
00:42:11
Speaker
Probably two timers, one for when you think you're going to finish dinner and like an hour. Yeah, after that. Right. Yeah, you guys didn't grow up with parents that wouldn't let you eat before you held hands and prayed or. And it shows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that I don't think I think I just let the human die because that's like a whole species you're talking about. That's like more than one person.
00:42:41
Speaker
I thought that the species wasn't gonna die. You don't know. You don't know how important the silverback gorilla is to the longevity of the species. You just know, you read in a New York Times article a couple years ago about the fact that they're endangered and that's all you know and you're like, oh fuck.
00:43:05
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like mine would be a game time. I don't. Oh, my God. I hate these questions. But like, I don't want to be the sole reason. I wouldn't be the sole reason. Listen, this is how I would console myself. I wouldn't be the sole reason the species died because it was doomed before this situation. So then are you on par with the poachers? No.
00:43:32
Speaker
But from that sentence, yes, I guess I am. I think this is a good ethical discussion. I don't know if I don't know. I don't know. I feel like you did a good job leveling out the playing field like the like may or may not be the end of an entire species. And OK, but I'm going to feel really fucking dumb if like I don't do anything. The human dies and then it's like, yeah, that silverback gorilla could have
00:44:01
Speaker
You know what I'm saying? Because if- It would've been fine. If it's that it's equal, that's a lot harder. If it's just a life for a life, that's a lot harder than a life for a whole species. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I feel like it's a no-brainer, a life for a whole species. I feel like in that case, if I know without a doubt that the longevity of the species relies on this motherfucker staying alive, I guess I'm killing the human.
00:44:32
Speaker
I don't know that you are. You seem really resistant to the idea of killing either one. But I think I like. I think I could live with I don't. But that's like I'm enjoying this. I just like watching more like what would you do, Kara? What would you do? I would actively make the choice to let the trolley keep going. OK, what if the what if though it's just a regular gorilla not endangered?
00:45:00
Speaker
and as a human, now what do you do? So it's just a life for life. There's no whole species on the line. Because I think that's the harder question. If you are on team, animals are equal to humans. That makes it harder. If you're not on team, animals are equal to humans, then you need the species thing to keep things in. But for you, now what are you doing? Because it's just, because now we're getting to the real trolley problem.
00:45:27
Speaker
What kind of what's the animal? It's just it's just an let's assume for the sake of this thought that gorillas regular gorillas are not endangered. And just like with the human, you won't really have an effect on anything.
00:45:45
Speaker
if one of them dies, except that a life was taken. So and it's going towards the gorilla. So you would have to actively you would have to actively pull it and go to the human. Here's the thing is, I think, does the world know what I choose? Like, am I on the news afterwards? And everyone's like, you chose X. People are probably already videotaping it. You don't you don't know if anybody's going to care or not. But let's assume
00:46:15
Speaker
Let's assume for the first answer, no, it's not gonna be on anything. This is just a purely, you're in the middle of the Australian Outback. Greyson commented, I'm guessing the guy on the track cares. Well, you know what, also the gorilla cares. Whether or not the gorilla can assess the situation properly, the gorilla still cares whether it lives or dies. And like, what did that man do to get himself in that situation?
00:46:45
Speaker
Why is it that way? What did the gorilla do? What did the gorilla do? Yeah, who's already untying all these people to tracks? So, OK, Cara, nobody is going to know. You're in the middle of nowhere. Nobody is going to know that you had anything to do with it. I think the one to one makes it really hard. Yeah. Because it's a because it's like if it was two humans, like in my mind, it's not.
00:47:07
Speaker
Okay, definitely I'm still killing the gorilla, even if it is the- Endangered silverback gorilla. Potential idea. Yeah. So you're definitely killing it if it's not. Either way, if it's unknown, I feel like I would still try to save the human. I think I would save the human because
00:47:32
Speaker
There's a longevity of life that humans have that gorillas don't have. So they don't live as long. And they don't live to be, you know, like 90, 180, whatever we live to be. I hope I don't live that long. How old do you want to live to be? Hang around Kara and train tracks and you won't live that long. It depends on what the other species is. What if the guy, what if the person's like only got five years left to live and the gorillas only got five years left to live?
00:48:01
Speaker
I think that I would probably I can't really say because this is all just a thought. I have no idea what I would really do in the situation. But to me, there's a sort of innocence to animals that is not possessed by humans.
00:48:23
Speaker
And I cannot know whether this person is a good person or a bad person, but I can be pretty sure that regardless of what the gorilla is or isn't, the gorilla is pure in a natural sense, if that makes sense. It does make sense. And it's more helpless. And so that's hard for me. It's like the gorilla really doesn't, they both don't have any agency in the matter, but the gorilla really has not had any agency at any point.
00:48:53
Speaker
And who invented the train? Who invented the train tracks? Who put the trolley on the train? Fucking humans. The gorilla overlords that are in charge of this fucked up nation. So wait, I'm curious, what would your answer have been? Had media been involved? Because your answer with no media was the human. I think that there's a certain
00:49:21
Speaker
I'm aware that if I were to actively choose to kill a person and save a gorilla, that the world would never forgive. There would never be...
00:49:34
Speaker
a world in which I would not be spotlighted. You know, like the guy that killed the lion. Harambo. Or Harambo, yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of them. The dentist, you know? There's a lot of Cecil, yeah, Cecil the lion. So I think it would be one of those situations where like that is forever the choice that I have made and everyone would know about it. And other people value people more than they value animals. And so it's really, what would the quality of my life be?
00:50:02
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. Now your life, it's not just it's not just it's you. It's you and the gorilla or you and the human.
Human vs Gorilla Trolley Problem
00:50:09
Speaker
So so then your answer doesn't change either way. Media or not, you'd be saving the human. Yeah, I think so. Hmm. Because also there's a lack of decision that you can kind of comfort yourself with. Is whoever set up this train
00:50:26
Speaker
had a situation in mind. Yeah, they made the choice and they made the choice to aim it at this one. OK, so if it's aimed at the human, so you have to make. The choice to kill the gorilla instead of the human. I don't know. I think I would I think I would save the gorilla. I think I'm on the same page of like.
00:50:53
Speaker
But only the media wasn't watching. Yeah, I think it like humans have such a detrimental effect on everything we touch for the most part. And gorillas take what they need. And they're part of the ecosystem. We destroy ecosystems. This was part of the discussion in the three hour car. It's like humans have a negative impact and animals can have. I mean, we can also have positive, but I think overall we tend to trend on the negative side. And I think that
00:51:22
Speaker
a gorilla is not going to have a negative impact. They'll probably have a neutral balance. Well, that's see, that's another thing is like people disagree whether or not the trolley problem is murder or not murder. Right. Oh, yeah. Like, is your inaction murder? Like, are you choosing? Because you do you are making a choice, even if it's a choice of inaction. You are making a choice. Right. Sometimes your natural reaction is to freeze.
00:51:51
Speaker
So I don't know how much time. You have plenty of time to not freeze. You've got 10 minutes. You got 10 minutes. You're looking down the track. You can see it's a couple miles away. The trolley is going 15 miles per hour. You have so much time. Oh my God, what a slow dive. You hope that it speeds up to
00:52:12
Speaker
Hopefully, kill the person right away. It's going downhill, so it's going to speed up. Perfect. It's getting speed, I see, but 10 minutes worth of speed. Honestly, I think I just jump out of the trolley. I jump out of the trolley, and that's not my problem. Someone else's problem. I am removing myself from the situation. Nope.
00:52:29
Speaker
That shall not fuck with the trolley question. Okay. Oh my God. Well, I'm very excited for like my ethical dilemmas for the next time we did this, because I have one that I'm very excited about that I want to talk about. I genuinely when I read it, I was like, I don't know what I would do. I want to do this one next time. Can we do like a three part? No, we've got a schedule to keep up.
00:52:51
Speaker
Well, I love you guys. I missed you. Should we do winners? Don't forget. Yeah, who wins? Me? I don't feel like anybody's winning in this conversation. I put a point for myself. I feel like I did a good job. OK, while we're doing that, I'll give myself a point. I feel like I did a great job. OK.
00:53:15
Speaker
I am going to be thinking about this for days and probably months and definitely tonight. So you guys can tie.
Episode Conclusion & Reflections
00:53:23
Speaker
OK, we're your joint winners. I'm Marion. I'm Kara. And I'm Mara. This has been My Top Everything. You can email us at mytopeverythingpodcast.gmail.com. Yes. You can like us on Instagram, Facebook, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we will see you next time. Bye.
00:53:45
Speaker
Did you want to do sponsors? Nope. As if anyone would sponsor us after hearing this one. We did. This episode is already so controversial. It's crazy. We went into organ donation. We went into like, wow. If I've ever thought that we might get a stalker or she's from an episode, it's from this one. It's this one.