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"What is Theme?" featuring M.K Lobb - Episode 4 - Season One - The Write Way of Life
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This week's episode features M.K Lobb, a fantasy writer with a love of all things dark— be it literature, humour, or general aesthetic. Her credits include the acclaimed “Seven Faceless Saints” and the March 2025 release “To Steal From Thieves.” M.K chatted with Karis and Adi about all the ways to implement a cohesive theme into your writing. Along the way, she also entered into a lively discussion about the art of writing historical fiction and when to take a stance in your writing, regardless of what your reader might want or expect. Stick around for the end of the episode, where you’ll get a mini chaotic review session with Adi and Karis about their thoughts about the episode.
Find M.K. Lobb online.
Order M.K.’s books.
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Transcript
The Ghost Tattoo Story & Inspiration
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello, hello, Addie. How are you? Hello, hello. I am doing good. Amazing. It is Sunday morning, March 23rd, 2025.
00:00:27
Speaker
two thousand twenty five And that means that it is exactly one year since I got my ghost tattoo, which if you've ever seen a picture of me that was a selfie, you've probably seen the ghost tattoo ever.
00:00:42
Speaker
It is the one that gets me the most compliments and the most laughs when I tell people that it's my undercover Taylor Swift homage. Wait, how is it an undercover Taylor Swift homage?
00:00:54
Speaker
So I got it at Taylor Swift Flash. Like all of the tattoos that they did at the studio that day were inspired by Taylor Swift. This one was inspired by Speak Now, specifically by the song Haunted, which is indeed my favorite Taylor Swift song.
00:01:09
Speaker
Oh, interesting. Mm-hmm. Okay. So it's my undercover Taylor Swift homage. I love that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's very cool. And I tell people, I'll be like, yeah, it's like, you know, it's it's subtle. So like nobody has to know. But then I tell everyone so everyone does know. And then people giggle and I feel really great inside.
00:01:31
Speaker
That's incredible. Is that your only tattoo? Girl, I've got five tattoos. Also, I know you're not a girl. I'm sorry. no, no. It's fine. It's fine. Gender neutral. Gender are neutral.
00:01:42
Speaker
my My guy. my dude. My little gentleman. My gentledem. My gentledem. Yes. Perfect. Um...
00:01:55
Speaker
Amazing.
Weekly Updates & Joyful Experiences
00:01:56
Speaker
Amazing. So how has this week or these past two weeks since we did our last intro recording, how they been? What's been bringing you joy? oh goodness. Well, I will tell you
Exploring 9-1-1: Gay Romance & Representation
00:02:06
Speaker
this. This last Thursday, watched this show called 911. Oh, my God.
00:02:10
Speaker
um my man I have to bring it up because this is this is this is a slow burn romance, a slow burn gay romance that has been seven seasons in The Mini King.
00:02:23
Speaker
And we're finally going to get there. This last episode basically confirmed it. I will say, like, if they don't go through with it. It's actually queerbaiting. Like this. Time riot.
00:02:36
Speaker
and Not even time to riot. Like i i I feel like it's warranted of the fans to like go to Tim Meniere's who is the like show producer's house and like sit down and have a conversation with him.
00:02:49
Speaker
Like a very stern conversation. I'm not suggesting violence. Yeah. But, like, we would be so disappointed in his choices.
00:03:00
Speaker
We're not mad, Tim. We're just disappointed. And also, we're a little mad. Yeah, and I'd probably revoke his, like, gay card. Like, he couldn't come to Pride events anymore.
00:03:11
Speaker
Well, I think that's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Unilaterally, i will just make that... decision view then speak for the gays i do the gays the thems the lgbtqas all of well all us and rainbow mafia i so want to watch and like watch 9-1-1 but alas i don't have seven seasons of slow burn in me like i can't i can't do seven seasons of like 20 episodes of like trauma just for possibly some payoff
00:03:44
Speaker
Okay, but here's the thing, though. There's so many other awesome things about 9-1-1. I'm going to make this pitch to you. There's so many other things about the TV show that is 9-1-1. First off, you don't even need a slow burn.
00:03:56
Speaker
Episode one, season one, you get you get a lesbian firefighter and her lovely, like, cool astrophysicist scientist wife. And that's canon. And that's there. Yeah, that's ah that's a selling point.
00:04:09
Speaker
at Like, the gays have this show from the from the onslaught. Like, it's very queer and fantastic. Also, you have Angela Bassett,
00:04:22
Speaker
and she's just amazing. She's, like, she's a cop, which, you know, is not my favorite thing because I don't like cop shows. But this is not totally, this is, like, 10% a cop show, 90% a firefighter show. So, like, it's not right not that bad.
00:04:39
Speaker
The good gals have their day. The good gals, I mean,
Dark Romance Book Series & Oathbound
00:04:44
Speaker
this is going to sound really weird, but the way that I watch cop shows, if I have to watch a cop show or if I'm interacting with like a cop and like a piece of media, is I just view it the same way that I view like mafia shows, right? like As you know.
00:04:56
Speaker
it's a fantasy. We know that these are not good people necessarily, or they're engaging in a system that is bad, but I'm still going to watch them interact and do things. Yeah. Yeah, it's, well, it's one, you either view it as an alternate reality or you view it the way you do dark romance, which actually perfectly brings me to my next point, which is what books have you been reading lately?
00:05:16
Speaker
Because I'm not going to give you the name of the book series because I'm a little embarrassed. But I got caught up in another book series. No.
00:05:27
Speaker
It's a dark romance. And it's pitched as like bully romance, but I don't really see the bully aspect of it. It's more like, bully in the sense of like I like you and I don't know how to deal with it. So I'm going to pull your hair a little bit, but also I'll like kill someone for you.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yes, people die. Like in every single book, people die. Like it's, it's like, like shit goes down. But, um, yeah, that's what I read. But I'm also still working my way through Oathbound.
00:05:55
Speaker
Um, every time I sit down and read it, I have like a crisis because I'm like, this book is so good. And I'm only 149 pages in, but it's already so good. I have 500 pages left and I'm scared.
00:06:07
Speaker
There's so much pain left. will there be a happy ending will there be a throuple ending like i just there's so many questions hold up yeah there's maybe a throuple ending i mean it's like a well so tracy calls it a love entanglement There's two boys who could be a love interest, but also one of them canonically had to crush on the other when they were in their youths.
00:06:30
Speaker
And their youthier youths. And a big part of the fandom is like Brie Selnick, like let's go Thrupple, Endgame. So, I mean, knock on wood. Okay.
00:06:43
Speaker
Adding more columns to the list that I need to really actually finish this series. Yeah, you do. Hell yeah. What have you been reading? ah I am still working my way through the lovely science book about alien oceans because it's a little mathy.
00:07:00
Speaker
Um, mostly because like I actually want to understand the science, which I think is slowing me down in my reading. Because whenever I read a paragraph and I don't fully understand what's going on, then I have to, then I go on the legugel and figure it out so that I can understand,
00:07:16
Speaker
So, it's yeah, it's it's been very fun. um Speaking of, though, the other book that I'm actually reading um is Goldilocks by Laura Lamb um because I realized that I hadn't actually read the book. um And it was sitting on my bookshelf and I felt the need to to engage in some more science fiction. And it's just, yeah, it's very spacey.
00:07:34
Speaker
Space is my theme. I think because I'm not writing any science fiction fantasy, I can, like,
Writing Journey: Rom-Com & Paranormal Love Story
00:07:40
Speaker
read that. Do you ever have that problem where, like, you can't read in the genre that you're currently working in?
00:07:45
Speaker
No. so I don't know why. i know it's a very common problem to have. I read whatever, whenever, no matter what.
00:07:56
Speaker
Incredible. I just, it's, my brain has very successfully compartmentalized the books that I read and the books that I write. So, like, sometimes it'll be, like, if I'm reading, like, ah Tracy Dion book, it's happened with, like, um the Foul Lady Fortune duology, right? With, like, by I will read it and I'll be like, oh my god, that was so good. I could never write something that good, that complex, that, like, fantasy, you know, with without world building. And so then I kind of, like, spiral for a bit.
00:08:24
Speaker
But then I just, you know, watch a YouTube video and start writing. yeah So compartmentalization. um What have you been writing? Speaking of, are you still working on your rom-com?
00:08:37
Speaker
Still working on my little rom-com. And now what was that inspired by again? yeah. 9-1-1. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, obviously. This was back in November when I had no hopes of this lovely gay firefighters at all coming you know to fruition in any satisfying way. So I was like, well, i guess I guess I have to write it. But then I started writing the fan fiction for it and realizing that like it was not fan fiction.
00:09:06
Speaker
um yeah you i was changing too many things. I was like, I don't like this and I don't like that. and i'm goingnna And then I was like, these are completely different characters. It's fan fiction except with different characters in a different setting in a different world.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. It is a book. Right. It's just the original fiction. Yeah. I am. So I started like brainstorming a new story book idea this week.
00:09:35
Speaker
The quick pitch is it is a paranormal love story between a depressed bisexual in Italy and the ghost who haunts her local castle.
00:09:45
Speaker
Oh. And you'll notice I said love story and not romance because I'm not sure that it's a genre romance. We'll have to wait and see. Oh no, do they not end up together in the end?
00:09:57
Speaker
I'm not going to tell you that. It's leaning like women's fiction book club upmarket. That kind of just like general fiction with a core love story in the middle.
00:10:10
Speaker
Okay. Is it gay or is it? Well, obviously it's gay. aie but look I don't know. Maybe. You're going to write about a boy ghost? No.
00:10:21
Speaker
Who knows? Maybe. If he's a ghost. Maybe. No, no. that's It's very gay. They're both so gay. Cool. For each other, specifically. i love that. That sounds very exciting.
00:10:33
Speaker
i think I think you're going to have to go on some research trips to really... Yeah, back home. Absolutely. who get that tax write-off. Yeah.
00:10:44
Speaker
As soon as I you know have research trip money, it's happening. Hell yeah. Speaking of bisexuals... Mm-hmm.
00:10:55
Speaker
I swear this
Interview with MK Lobb: Dark Fantasy & Themes
00:10:56
Speaker
makes sense. Who is our guest this week? Because the characters in her books are bisexual. Yes, yes, yes. Our guest this week was MK Lobb, who came on the podcast to talk to us about theme.
00:11:10
Speaker
Was. We had such a great conversation with her. And so I'm not going to tease you anymore about it. We're just going to read her bio and then we'll dive into the episode.
00:11:22
Speaker
Hell yeah. All right. M.K. Lobb is a fantasy writer with a love of all things dark, be it literature, humor, or general aesthetic. She grew up in small town Ontario and studied political science at both the University of Western Ontario and the University of Ottawa.
00:11:39
Speaker
She now lives by the lake with her partner and their cats. When not reading or writing, she can be found at the gym or contemplating the harsh realities of existence. Her debut novel, Seven Faceless Saints, released in early 2023. It was a kids-lit Indian X pick and was shortlisted for the Barnes & Noble Children's YA Book Awards.
00:11:58
Speaker
The sequel, Disciples of Chaos, followed in 2024. Her third novel, To Steal from Thieves, comes out March 25th, 2025, which is, if anyone is looking at a calendar, tomorrow.
00:12:13
Speaker
All right. So we're here again ah the Right Way of Life podcast. I keep trying to say the name of the podcast and like messing it up and stumbling over it in my head and then saying I've stumbled over it just to call attention to it for some reason. But we're here.
00:12:28
Speaker
We're on a podcast. We've got MK Lobb, who is the author of the Seven Faceless Saints duology and also the upcoming, as of this podcast published, like release date as it comes out tomorrow, um to steal from thieves, which very exciting stuff.
00:12:46
Speaker
And we're so hello. are you? Thank you so much for having me. I'm great. I'm excited to be here. amazing yeah we're so excited to have you and today we're going to be talking about theme which is when addy and i and our friend alex were coming up with this podcast we were like we're going to do a season on the basics of craft and we're going to talk about like the pillars of craft and i was like and we came up with eight of them and that that's not to say that they're the the correct and true pillars of craft or that they're the only things that are like you know
00:13:25
Speaker
important to craft, but they're just the ones we came up with. theme is the one that like I've had the hardest time mentally pinning down over the past couple months as we've been preparing for this because it's like, okay, what is theme?
00:13:39
Speaker
So that's my first question for you. Oh, gosh. um I think, well, everybody would describe it differently, probably, if you asked a bunch of different authors.
00:13:49
Speaker
um For me, it's kind of a motif that your story revolves around, which sounds very simple. But I think it's just when I'm plotting out my story, I always start with trying to nail down what the theme is for each of the characters. Sure.
00:14:05
Speaker
um and how like I do multiple point of views as well and so a lot of the time there's a theme that I have for kind of the overarching story um but then there's also a theme that I have within each I guess characterization trajectory and kind of a sub theme I suppose um and so for me yeah it's something that you're facing your story and plot around but also an idea that you want to get across to your readers not like I don't want to say a lesson, um but just sort of an overarching concept that you hope somebody takes away from the book, I suppose.
00:14:44
Speaker
Yeah. um Side note, love the word motif. and I'm almost saying I was deaf in. I love motif. I know. It's it's so good. And it's it's actually, it's a perfect word to describe a theme because it is, it's like the, almost like the linchpin of the story, right? Like it's what it all revolves around. It's,
00:15:05
Speaker
not it's i remember the first writing class i ever took in sixth grade was like this random creative writing like weird thing we did after school and they they taught us fables um and i think it's fables it was either fables or the other one um The words are in Italian in my head.
00:15:28
Speaker
but yeah So I'm not quite sure which the ones... But the ones that always have like a ah message at the end. They have like a... So theme doesn't... Every story has a theme, but not every story has to be as, let's say, overt about it.
00:15:44
Speaker
ah right Like a pair a pair, a fable or something like that. um So, yeah. How would you sort of describe your process? Like when you...
00:15:55
Speaker
When you're coming up with a story or like a book idea, does the do you get a premise? do you get character, plot, theme? Like how does it all sort of come together in your mind and coalesce into something?
00:16:09
Speaker
all It's interesting because I try to use the save the cat process a lot of the time when I'm first starting out and trying to plot. um And theme is a really big part of that process. But I always find that the theme is something that I kind of have to come back to once I've already started writing.
00:16:26
Speaker
um I think for me, i like it to be almost organic in a way. Like I don't want to set myself up within a certain theme for my characters and then go back and you you know find out that I didn't actually do a good job of getting across what I wanted to get across.
00:16:43
Speaker
So I try to start with my plot and my characterization and my world building. And then i sort of begin planning out the story and then writing the story. And I think the theme kind of comes to me as I'm writing, if that makes sense.
00:16:59
Speaker
And it's something that I really have to sit on and go back and plug in, i guess. and And so I know a lot of people start out with their characters and having their characterization ready to go. And I'm kind of more in the camp of I have a world in my mind. I've set up a magic system and I've got the world building ready to go.
00:17:22
Speaker
um And then I kind of have to put in my characters after the fact. And i would say that I'm a discovery writer in the sense of characterization. Like, I don't really know who my characters are until i get them doing what I need them to do in the plot. And then in that first draft, it's kind of like...
00:17:39
Speaker
okay, so here's here's who they are. i know what they want, but I didn't really know what they needed as a person, i guess. um I know their goals, but I need them to tell me who they are, especially in relation to each other.
00:17:52
Speaker
um it probably sounds a bit strange, but it's almost like I need to see them interact with one another and interact with their environment. um And that's kind of an afterthought, not an afterthought, but it's definitely like,
00:18:08
Speaker
a subsequent thing that I do when I am starting a new book. um And so when it comes to the ah theme, that's definitely something that i would say even comes after characterization for me. It's like, I've got my world, I've got my magic system, I have my characters, and i now see how they interact with one another in the setting.
00:18:28
Speaker
And then once I sort of see them moving within that frame, i can I can go back and decide what the theme of the book is going to be. I am so glad you said that because that's also how I come up with themes for my books. And I was like, thought I was doing it wrong for a hot second there.
00:18:46
Speaker
ah No, no, I don't think there is a right way, honestly. I think some people don't even have a theme and I don't always have a theme. I just have a vague idea of what the story is kind of about emotionally, if that makes sense.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think...
00:19:02
Speaker
Because it is, it's like a motif. It's like, it can also be... You can have multiple books that sort of surround a similar theme or even the same theme. um And I do think often, like, the more...
00:19:16
Speaker
ah Writer writes and like if you read an author it with a big backlist you can sort of figure out like oh yeah that's that's been bugging them for a while. but yeah Yeah no absolutely I think a lot of authors sort of tend to gravitate towards a similar theme.
00:19:31
Speaker
um And I think I'm probably, well, I definitely am one of those people. um And I mean, you can have multiple themes within a book, obviously, but I think I definitely tend to write the same kind of theme, which is generally an idea of like, you can make your own decisions in life and you can set out your own beliefs, I suppose. You don't have to stick with what you're told.
00:19:57
Speaker
um And you really, i think I'm really focused on that idea of like making my characters come into their own as young adults, especially when I'm writing in that genre. And Sort of, i can't think of the correct word right now, but just understanding that they don't have to listen to what they're told and they can sort of forge their own path in life. And I think all of my characterization kind of comes to them understanding that in the end.
00:20:25
Speaker
um So that's definitely a theme in every book that I've written so far. And I think a lot of authors, if you do read multiple books by them, you can sort of see the same thing happening in some of them.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, i I love that as a theme. That's something that it took me, like, until I was in my mid-20s to learn for myself. Oh, same. Yeah, the beauty of young adult books is now, you know, the next generation and, like, next several generations of readers. Maybe they'll learn it sooner.
00:20:53
Speaker
We can hope. Dream. Everyone has their own time, though, like... You get there eventually. Yeah. um Yeah, okay, so why...
00:21:06
Speaker
Why does a book's theme matter? Like, why why why do we put, like, why do we tell stories that have themes? Why don't we just, I don't know.
00:21:18
Speaker
Just write of a fun story. Honestly, I think it's really hard to write a book that doesn't have a theme, even if you're doing it by accident. um Like, I know, I'm sure not every author thinks about what they want the theme of their story to be. And i think that's fine, honestly.
00:21:35
Speaker
um i think that it's it's almost sort of part of writing human characters is that you're going to end up with some sort of a theme, whether you intend it or not.
00:21:47
Speaker
I think it would be very, very difficult to write a book that doesn't have a theme and it would kind of feel, i guess, emotionally empty in a way. um ah think that it's a real element of humanization and like humanizing your characters is injecting these themes into your story, even if you're not really actively intending to do so.
00:22:07
Speaker
um and so i think when you say, why do we have a theme in our stories? um I think for a lot of people, who are choosing ah specific theme, it kind of gives them a reason to write that specific story and a reason for them to put their characters on a certain trajectory and understand what their characters need to learn, ah suppose.
00:22:32
Speaker
um Whether it's overtly or sort of a background thing happening in the story as the plot progresses. um And so I wouldn't say we need it as in like everybody needs to decide what their theme is before they start writing a book. But I do think we need ah kind of thematic ideas moving through every story that kind of connect to that really human and emotional aspect. And that's what really draws people into a story and makes them care about the characters and their journey.
00:23:04
Speaker
So it's almost like um like another word for theme could be like the emotional core or like the... i would say so. Yeah, it's just like the beating heart of the story. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's how I think of it.
00:23:18
Speaker
like I don't like to think of it as like a lesson that you take away. It's more like, what are these characters kind of learning and what's going to make the reader care about it? um And how does it connect to a real world understanding?
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And when you look at it that way, there's like, i mean, there's a a wide range of possible themes, right? Like you've got everything from, i don't know, like down with the patriarchy, the like capitalism is bad. All of these are themes that I love.
00:23:53
Speaker
ah Yeah, I think I have all those themes. Yeah. Like you could have so many at once, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like a like a buffet. Like you just choose what's going to work for you.
00:24:05
Speaker
um So your upcoming release to Steal from Thieves. I know you mentioned that one of your common like things that you go back to is the sort of ability to make your own decisions.
00:24:18
Speaker
um sort of without like no spoilers obviously but like what sort of what were you toying with like what what concepts were you playing with as you were plotting this book and writing this book like what were the big ideas in your head um like with regards to that specific thing yeah yeah or with regards to like the book in general like other themes as well Yeah, yeah.
00:24:43
Speaker
So at least when it comes to the characters, I'll c start there because I think I sort of have ideas of theme as they relate to characters and then theme as it relates to my overall setting, especially because this is a historical setting.
Themes of Personal Growth in 'To Steal from Thieves'
00:24:56
Speaker
um So there's a lot to work with in there. um But at least for the characters, i I tend to make them have some serious daddy issues. As I kind of push them along into their learning that they make and ah learning that they need to make their own decisions.
00:25:13
Speaker
um And so like for the female character in the story, she's kind of been set into this box of like... This is what she has to do when the story starts. Her father has died. He's left her a bunch of commissions that she has to create, whether she likes it or not, because if she doesn't do it, then she's going to be tracked down by all these people that have commissioned him.
00:25:37
Speaker
And theyre it's sort of a black market scenario. there They're doing it secretly because these things that she creates are illegal. um So these are some bad people that she has to create for. And so when her father dies, she's taking his place, essentially, whether she likes it or not, because if she doesn't, she'll probably be killed or hurt.
00:25:57
Speaker
um And so she's stuck in that sense, but she's also living in the London slum. It's called the Devil's Acre. think it's still an area in London today.
00:26:08
Speaker
um But so's she's also kind of economically trapped. Yeah. And so these are two scenarios that are really hard to overcome, especially when you're a young person. ah You're tracked by your parents' expectations, even if your parent is deceased.
00:26:23
Speaker
um And then you're also tracked by sort of your economic surroundings. um And so ah think this really helps push her into what the story is going to be about. Essentially, that's why she teams up with the male main character.
00:26:40
Speaker
um And that's why she makes all these sort of moral compromises throughout the story, because she feels like she has no other option. Right. um And when it comes to the other point of view character, and who's the one that she teams up with, um,
00:26:56
Speaker
He also has dead parents, which seems to be the young adult theme because it's easier to get rid of them. um So he's essentially been raised by this evil kingpin who's in charge of the dark market and is in charge of the magic trade. um And so he's kind of like the criminal underworld golden boy. But of course, that comes with all these expectations that he has to be a certain way um and that he has to be terrible, essentially. But he's also just...
00:27:25
Speaker
a guy. um and so i think for both Kane and Zarya, that's the name of the characters, um as they come together and they're kind of fighting against one another because they both have these very specific moral frameworks and they're not really fitting together well, um it's really a chance for them to kind of interact with somebody who's in a similar scenario, but also perceiving things really differently than they are. um And so I think they kind of help one another realize that they can break out of this sort of, i guess, box that they've been forced into. um And they can see that like, okay, here's another person who has the same issues that I do, but we've got very different views and very different approaches
00:28:17
Speaker
And so maybe I can adopt even more different approaches if I want to overcome this, if that makes sense. um And so, yeah, it's complicated because the end of the book, they do learn this in a sense, but it is a duology. So it also ends with them being forced right back into a whole different box.
00:28:37
Speaker
ah um But that's when I hearken back to that idea of like, through characterization and through getting your characters to interact with one another and their surroundings, that's how you can really emphasize the theme you're trying to get across.
00:28:52
Speaker
um And so that's what I was doing here. I was sort of saying, Here's where the characters are starting. Here's what their, I guess, ideals and views are. And here's how they interact with one another in a way that helps them see that they can move past the scenario that they started out in.
00:29:10
Speaker
and Yeah, so that's how i that's how I did it when it came to the characters. um But I know you also spoke about themes of like crush the patriarchy and capitalism is bad and stuff like that.
Historical Context & Themes in 1851 London
00:29:24
Speaker
Which are also themes that I always have because, you know, I'm a politics graduate. That was my major in school. um And so I think that's probably part of the reason I always start out with world building when I am plotting a book.
00:29:40
Speaker
um I'm really focused on like what the political framework of the world is and specifically like how my magic system fits into that framework.
00:29:51
Speaker
um That's always really interesting for me to consider like if you have this certain political system and this certain hierarchy, how does magic factor into that and how is it going to affect the way that the characters work within that certain system?
00:30:07
Speaker
um And so in this case, it is a historical fantasy. So it's a real setting, but it's not real because obviously there's this dark magic that is not real.
00:30:18
Speaker
um But yeah, it's in London in 1851 during the Great Exhibition. And so this was a time that was... I guess it there was a big change happening at the time, specifically in England.
00:30:33
Speaker
um It's the end of that initial industrial revolution where everything is just kind of starting to be mechanical and you've got mass production beginning. um And the Great Exhibition is a really interesting setting for me specifically because it's kind of that...
00:30:51
Speaker
moment where the British Empire takes its, I guess, imperialistic ideas and combines it with this mass production. um And they say, okay, we want to have this huge exhibition of everything that we're doing and creating and everything that other countries are doing and creating.
00:31:10
Speaker
And they're kind of presenting it under the guise of like, Look at how well everyone's working together and look at what the world is accomplishing. um But in reality, it's a very imperialistic event. Like what they really want to do is say, here's what we were able to set up and here's what we're doing. And that's how it compares to to other countries.
00:31:31
Speaker
um And so it was very fun for me to write the heist into that kind of setting, um because now you've got these characters that are from the poorer areas of London, and they're coming into the Crystal Palace where the exhibition is held, and they're coming up against all of these sort of important rich people um in this important rich people setting.
00:31:55
Speaker
And they're thinking, okay, here's something that we could steal from, which... on its own, you know, you think, oh stealing is terrible, but it's kind of a moral quandary of like, okay, yeah, maybe stealing is bad, but here's this imperialist system and here's what they've done and here's how it's negatively affecting certain levels of class in the city.
00:32:18
Speaker
um And so for me, that was a really interesting way to be able to kind of insert those themes of, as you said, the patriarchy is... a relevant theme in that case, especially during that time period um and the dangers of imperialism and what they're doing to other countries and how that impacts the views of people in a place like London at the time, the things they know and the things they don't know.
00:32:44
Speaker
um And how they perceive the things that are happening in the rest of the world, because, you know, it's not it's not 2025. They don't have access to anything other than propaganda. Right.
00:32:56
Speaker
um And so that's another big theme in the book is how. and not overt in it because it is young adult that's a heist but there's an idea of like how people are presented ideas by their government and by the system that's governing them um and so these are things that are all touched upon in the story briefly as we go through just because It is such a specific event and time period. And it's in such a specific area when i think everybody now knows that obviously the British Empire at that time was not great.
00:33:33
Speaker
Like the people at the time wouldn't have known that. They would have thought it was amazing, right? um And I think it's really interesting because it actually, the propaganda was so powerful at the time. It kind of carries over to today because, know,
00:33:46
Speaker
I think a lot of people still, if you read about the Great Exhibition, you're still reading about how it was so fabulous for England and how much work they put into it. And it was such a success.
00:33:58
Speaker
um And the reality is, like, if you really research the event, people didn't want it. Like, people were not interested. And the only way that they were able to make it happen was kind of trial and error spoon-feeding them these various...
00:34:15
Speaker
propaganda-laced messages. um And they had to essentially convince the public that this was going to work and this is what they wanted. And it worked. um And so that's what's really interesting, especially when you think about what's happening right now in the world. It's like, wow, we have a lot of parallels that we can draw there. Look, guys, terrible propaganda and messaging works.
00:34:37
Speaker
And that sucks. god Yeah, it is. It's very like... um How do you... It's bringing to mind things like, you know, history is written by the winners and, like, who defines the stories that we hear. And, like, growing up in um the schools that I grew up in, I never learned things like British imperialism was bad. It was all like, yay, we did so many good things. And, um yeah, so I can totally see how, like, setting a book in 1851 where it's like they don't have...
00:35:13
Speaker
you know, social media or video cameras to capture lies, the truth behind the propaganda, right? Like, how do you sort of show the truth that is being hidden? And that's, yeah, I imagine that was a very fascinating and Maybe difficult thing to ah to like write through?
00:35:34
Speaker
yeah Well, it's difficult to work with when you're writing a book like this because you have to consider... ah like You want your character to be able to push back against that and kind of show the reader why this is bad and why they are against it. um But at the same time, you're trying to inject some realism into it. And it's difficult because you've got these characters who are in the London slums. and like realistically they're not the type of characters who would be unpacking imperialism and understanding what these problems are that would arise um especially on an international level so I think I had to take a bit of um
00:36:17
Speaker
I had to make some things up when it came to that um because I want to write characters that are informed, um at least to some extent, and have them question their surroundings, even if, you know, in real life, people probably weren't doing that. They were just worried about how they were going to survive in this shitty environment. Right.
00:36:36
Speaker
um So it was hard to juggle that. Yeah. It's like the the tricky sort of balance of like you're writing ah story set in the past, but you are writing it for the audience of 2025.
Balancing Historical Accuracy & Modern Themes
00:36:47
Speaker
And so you sort of have to balance audience expectations with the truth of the time and the and also the fact that it is a high story and you can't just like go off for two chapters on why imperialism sucks.
00:37:01
Speaker
ah Exactly. Which is always a problem for me. I always end up in the in the political weeds, I think is what my editor called it once. um Because I do want to get all these messages across to people and I want to add a ton of historical context.
00:37:17
Speaker
um And a lot of the time I need to be pulled back and have my agent or editor say like, okay, this is a fun fantasy heist book for kids. Like, this is not master's.
00:37:28
Speaker
masters ah like um so it's Yeah, it's difficult to try and strike that balance where you are getting across a message you want to get across, but also it needs to be concise um and easily digestible, I guess, if that makes sense.
00:37:44
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Sort of going off that, do you have any like um tips or tricks that you've developed in really fine tuning that um idea of inserting theme that has these like big overarching things um that are less palatable to to some folks, like the idea of the patriarchy and all of that without um like compromising that theme and also still getting it across to your audience in a way?
00:38:13
Speaker
I think for me, at least, I write a draft that I want to write and then I have to go back and essentially fix it so that it is more palatable. um My first drafts are very dense, especially when I'm writing something like this that actually has a real world historical context.
00:38:30
Speaker
um So I end up with a lot of kind of excess information that I know I'm not going to need and that I know isn't really... digestible and I know that I have a problem with when I am writing those initial drafts. I make a lot of things sound more like textbooks than books.
00:38:48
Speaker
um And i when I go to read it back, some of my world building, I'm like, okay, that sounds like what I would have read in my politics textbook. It doesn't sound like it's part of a story and it really doesn't sound like it's an 18 year old reflecting on their circumstances, right? Yeah.
00:39:02
Speaker
um And so I think when I go back and i look at what I need to do in subsequent edits, I'm really focused on kind of getting myself more out of my brain and out of telling myself the story and building the world for myself and now pivoting the kind of what my character would see and what my character would notice, um which is why I talked about the issue of like, what would my character notice? What would a girl who grew up in the London slums notice about her environment and notice about
00:39:35
Speaker
the political structure that she's operating in um And that's where I had to kind of make it up a little bit because the ria the reality of it is not exactly what I wanted for my character.
00:39:48
Speaker
um and I'm sure there were real life people who would have thought about that kind of stuff as there always are. but I think generally speaking, when it comes to people who are living in that that kind of environment, um like they would be focused on surviving and doing their day to day things and their jobs. And like, you can't blame them for that.
00:40:08
Speaker
um But yeah, when I do go back and try and streamline things and make them more digestible and make them more of a story than ah regurgitation of fact.
00:40:20
Speaker
um I'm really trying to focus on my actual character and how they would interpret things. um And I guess another answer when it comes to including themes like that and how I make them palatable is a lot of the time don't.
00:40:38
Speaker
don't um Like, I have a very firm stance when it comes to, i think that came across to a lot of people in my last series when it comes to things like um political issues and especially religious propaganda and stuff like that.
00:40:55
Speaker
i do take a very firm stance and i have my characters kind of rail against is that a lot of the time. And i don't really both sides a lot of stuff. um I make it really obvious what side I'm on as an author. um And I think it comes through in the characters. And I know some people aren't going to like that, but ah that doesn't really concern me. That's the message I'm trying to get across in my books. And so, i mean, I try not to make it like I'm beating you over the head with like, this is what the author thinks, but
00:41:29
Speaker
There are a lot of a lot of issues that I do address in my books where if you're reading it and thinking about, you know, the hand of the author guiding the characters, it's clear what I believe and how I'm interpreting this kind of stuff.
00:41:44
Speaker
um And that's fine with me. So, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's the it's the eternal... literally eternal threads conversation of it is our books political and it's like well first of all yes yeah duh um but also like you as an author like don't If I'm writing a book like I am a queer woman and I don't want homophobic or transphobic people reading my books and finding joy in them.
00:42:17
Speaker
um yeah So like I'm not going to be super subtle in my books about like, oh, I don't know. Maybe it's like, no, it's not. You shouldn't you shouldn't be that way. And if you are that way, you're going to feel uncomfortable reading these books. And like, you know what? Maybe you should be more uncomfortable more often.
00:42:31
Speaker
Well, that's the thing, yeah. And I mean, i have had people that were uncomfortable reading my first book just because i i have two characters that one of them is very focused on his religious upbringing and the other one's explaining why he's the worst because of it, essentially.
00:42:50
Speaker
um And why he's kind of fallen to this idea of propaganda and these organized religious ideals. And it's a made-up religion, but... People were still not happy with it because the way that I'm addressing it is obviously showing it in a negative light.
00:43:06
Speaker
um And I got a lot of like, you should have shown both sides. You should have so shown why this could be good. um And yeah, I could have, but that's not what I was trying to write.
00:43:17
Speaker
i wasn't writing for the people that are on the other side, I guess. um And I mean, if people disagree with me and they read my books and they still enjoy it, that's great.
00:43:28
Speaker
I'm happy. um But it wasn't for them, you know. So, yeah, books are always going to be political and mine are probably more openly political than some other ones.
00:43:41
Speaker
um But that's just the way that I am. I obviously am very political and You know, I study political violence specifically, and so I'm very focused on, you know, ways that structures inflict violence on their citizens specifically. So I'm always going to have some of that.
00:44:01
Speaker
um and I think my stances will be obvious and it won't be for some people and that's fine. yeah it's it's i mean realizing that you cannot please every reader is like a canon event in every writer's life like true and i think this is it's just taking it to the conclusion of like whether you know it's a it's almost like you have to come to terms with it and learn it like you would any other element of craft right like Not everyone's going to be happy with how I write my characters. They're not going to be happy with my point of view. They're not going to like my prose. They might not like the theme. Mm-hmm.
00:44:39
Speaker
trying to please everyone, like you just end up with like, um don't know, something. no Yeah. That's true. And it's also, if you are trying to please everyone that's going to read your book, you're not going to be able to nail down a coherent theme, I don't think.
00:44:53
Speaker
um Like, especially if you're working with those things we previously talked about in relation to like your political structure. If you're not taking some kind of stance or having your characters take some kind of stance, you're you're not going to have a coherent theme that you're communicating to your readers. They're not going to understand what you're trying to say.
00:45:12
Speaker
um and so that's why i don't really try to both sides it because then I i think it just comes out as being kind of wishy-washy and the messaging that you are trying to inject into your story is not clear. Okay, so you sort of touched on the like...
00:45:30
Speaker
um What was it that you said, like, you don't want to, like, well, basically, like, how how do you, like, on a technical level, how do you write in such a way that you are expressing a theme and you are expressing a message, but you're not just, like, all caps, smacking people in the face with it?
Writing Process: Organic Theme Development
00:45:54
Speaker
I think it mostly has to do with having a theme be important to your world and being important to your characters. um like i'm never decide I think that's part of the reason I decide on a theme after. It's because I need to write that world and write those characters and understand things.
00:46:13
Speaker
how they move through the setting in order to kind of realize what the theme is. um and don't want it to feel like I'm injecting it as an afterthought, if that makes sense.
00:46:24
Speaker
um I want it to be very much a part of the world that I created and be very much a part of the characterization. And so I think by writing my story first and then going back and thinking about theme only in my next drafts, it feels more...
00:46:42
Speaker
organic to me, I guess. um Like when I go back and I do my developmental edits, I do have the theme in mind in a way that I didn't when I was writing the initial draft.
00:46:55
Speaker
um Because when I am doing that initial draft, I'm kind of focused on introducing myself to the world and introducing myself to the characters and just getting my plot points in as well as I can.
00:47:07
Speaker
um and then once i'm once I'm going back and I'm really focusing on fine-tuning everything, I think that's a time when you're trying to think about Okay, here's what I've done in the initial draft, and here's the themes that kind of arose. Now, how can I make them more obvious, assuming you want to do that, and how can I make them intertwine seamlessly with this trajectory of characterization and with the world that I've created?
00:47:35
Speaker
so I think, and like I said before, I think it's always just going to be sort of an organic thing. You're going to write a story and there are going to be themes that emerge because it was something that was important to you or important to the character as you're writing it um And so in terms of a craft standpoint, it's not something that I'm doing separately, if that makes sense. It's always just a part of the characterization and a part of the world building. Yeah.
00:48:05
Speaker
yeah it's all very It's all very intertwined. um And it's difficult to explain, I think, because it's not even something that I always do consciously. um It's more of something that I go back and look at after the fact and find like, okay, here's where I've injected this idea. And here's where I've made it really clear that this is what I was trying to get across in terms of messaging. Yeah.
00:48:31
Speaker
But I'm not always doing it as I'm writing. I'm going back and reading it and saying, oh, I did that. It's very like story first, right? Like the, I guess, like story character, like all of that comes and then it kind of guides the theme almost.
00:48:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think the theme and the thematic ideas should always be in service of the story that you're trying to tell and in service of the story that your characters are going on. um And so again, that's why I like to kind of look at it as an, not in an afterthought, but like as a secondary idea.
00:49:06
Speaker
um Because Yeah, when you're writing a story, it's always going to be plot first, um essentially. Like, here's what you're trying to do. Here's what your characters are trying to do Now, how can you bring these specific motifs into the story in service of this plot and in service of these characters?
00:49:27
Speaker
Is there anything else that, like, comes to mind that you would like to share, either about theme or about your book that comes out?
Writing Advice & Personal Rituals
00:49:38
Speaker
tomorrow not when we're talking you know oh gosh um that's very broad is there anything else that i want to talk about i mean i've talked about most things that i think and feel about theme and i've talked about story structure and um i think for anybody who's listening and trying to discern like what craft and what structure they should be using to write.
00:50:08
Speaker
ah just really want people to understand that they don't need to listen to me or anybody else, really. um i think when you're writing, what's really important first is the creativity and having an idea of the story that you want to tell um and finding a way that works for you to be able to tell it.
00:50:30
Speaker
um And so that's why even when I'm giving people advice, I really try to drive home. but like You don't have to listen to me. This is what I do. And this is what I believe. But if it doesn't work for you it's not in service of what you believe your story is about or what you want your story to be about, um you can toss it aside. It will not hurt my feelings. Essentially, i want to help, but I want you to tell the story that you want to tell Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
um And so I really love things like this, like conversations about craft, because I think it's really interesting to listen to what certain authors are doing. And I love to use that as kind of a jumping off point if I am trying to put together a certain, I guess, structure or set of habits for myself when I'm writing. Yeah.
00:51:21
Speaker
But yeah, it is important to try out different ideas and different formats and ah read different books about craft and decide if that works for you or not, because it's not all going to work for you and it doesn't have to.
00:51:34
Speaker
and I think a lot of the time it's easy for writers to get stuck in the weeds of like, this sounds like a good way to do something and I want to be able to plug my ideas into it. um And then if it doesn't work, you kind of feel like you've failed.
00:51:49
Speaker
And that's not necessarily the case. It might just not work for you. um And I know I've seen a lot of people talk about how like the four act structure, the three act structure are very Western ideals of storytelling. And that might not be what you're trying to do either. Right.
00:52:05
Speaker
um And I think that's okay. If you're not able to make your ideas fit into a certain structure at all, maybe that's not the type of thing that you are trying to get across to your reader. So Yeah, that's all I would say to people is ah take in as much information as you can and then discard anything that you feel doesn't apply or doesn't make sense to you. Yeah, I love that. It it makes me think of like stories.
00:52:33
Speaker
They feel so, like, alive to me, both when I'm reading them and when I'm writing them. And I know that, like, I can read the same exact book as someone else and we will have different experiences because it feels like they, like, live and breathe with us.
00:52:47
Speaker
And in the same way, like, you... Because it is so alive, like, you can't force it into any specific box or pattern or structure because...
00:53:00
Speaker
I mean, the best stories are the ones that surprise us and that like take everyone, like even the author by surprise. So like you can, you can fully plot out your book. You can have it beat by beat. And then, you know, who knows what your characters are going to do.
00:53:14
Speaker
Well, exactly. i think it's that human element that comes through in your characterization. um And sometimes by trying to fit your story into certain boxes, you can lose that ah organic human feel.
00:53:27
Speaker
yeah. And so it is tricky to find something that works for you. But I think when you read a story and you kind of digest what the author is trying to do, you can tell if they have a certain framework that works for them. Like you can feel that there they're working with a certain, i guess, set of habits or whatever that that really resonates with them. And you can also tell when they're trying to fit their story into a framework that doesn't work for them because it just doesn't feel...
00:53:56
Speaker
right i guess um and it's almost hard to explain but i think it's just obvious to the reader even if they aren't able to put words to it like they'll be able to tell the difference um so that's why it's really important to ah like like your story obviously but then also like the way you're trying to tell your story mm-hmm Absolutely.
00:54:19
Speaker
Do you have any weird or unusual writing superstitions or rituals? This has nothing to do with theme. This is true. I love this question.
00:54:31
Speaker
um i have a lot of weird writing and yeah, superstitious little things. on For one, i always need to have my shoes on.
00:54:42
Speaker
and and I don't know why, but I feel like I'm not serious unless I have my shoes on. Like, I just get so easily distracted when I'm writing. um And it's almost like if I have my running shoes on and they're tight and I feel like I'm serious and doing real work then i'll actually stay in one spot and do what i'm supposed to be doing um because otherwise i'll get up and float around my house and do god knows what else um so yeah even if i'm in my pajamas i will have my running shoes on yeah amazing wow
00:55:24
Speaker
Yeah, so that's one of them. um Yeah, I have a lot of strange little things. um I always need several very specific items on my desk before I start, even if I don't use them.
00:55:39
Speaker
Like I need to have this book with it it's called the emotion thesaurus. It's like, yeah I don't know if you've heard of it, but you can look up like happy and get a bunch of synonyms for happy.
00:55:50
Speaker
I never use it almost Almost never because I just have my thesaurus.com up on my computer. But I need that book on my desk for no reason because it has to be there.
00:56:00
Speaker
It's your comfort emotion thesaurus. I guess so. I'm like, what if I decide to use it? I need it to be accessible. but I need that. um and need Kleenex.
00:56:12
Speaker
I need my lip gloss. And I need three different drinks. One cold, one hot, and one water. And then I will forget about all of them. so Nice. but and See, that's how you know you're like really in the moment when you forget about all three of your beverages.
00:56:26
Speaker
It's true. Yeah. I get really locked in, especially when i have my shoes on, and I'll just forget to eat lunch and drink all of my drinks. And yeah. Yeah. don't know. I'm not a clean person.
00:56:38
Speaker
The rest of my house is a disaster, but my desk is very specific. Like, I need a certain setup before I can do anything. Why does it actually help? Probably not. It's just in my head. But I mean, if it helps you, like if it helps in your head, that's that's perhaps it's true.
00:56:57
Speaker
But yeah, the shoes one is the one I tend to tell most people because they think it's really strange. I can't explain it. Yeah, I, yeah, I don't like shoes, so it couldn't be me, but, you know, teach there. Well, I don't usually. Honestly, i don't, like, the rest of the time, I hate shoes and socks. I'm barefoot.
00:57:19
Speaker
But if I need to be serious and do my deadline, I've got my shoes on. ah
00:57:28
Speaker
that's Dean with MKWobb. What'd you think, Addie? I think that it was an absolutely wonderful discussion. I also love when we get a little bit into the weeds um with anything political. And I was just absolutely fascinated with the background that she has um and talking about her book from that historical perspective.
00:57:51
Speaker
I think is really it was just really, really cool. um I wish we could have talked more about that, but I think that would have that would have diverted us too far away from the theme of this episode. i see what you did there.
00:58:02
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. do um Yeah, I loved thinking, well, no, I hated thinking of how like, oh, look at that 1851 2025. twenty twenty five No, the parallels, yeah, the parallels are a little too close to home.
00:58:19
Speaker
So, so bad. and But it was a good conversation and I really appreciate I really appreciate it, especially when she said she was like, no, you know what? I don't really like two sides. Like, i don't need people to not know what I'm i'm getting at.
00:58:34
Speaker
And I was like, you know what? Fair point. Like, I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah, I really related to that. Like, if you have a theme, you're going to be specific and you have to defend that theme. You can't, you know, both sides the situation because then it just waters down everything.
00:58:50
Speaker
I also really appreciated that she talked about sort of the two facets that you can have with a theme, which is the theme as it relates to your characters and the theme as it relates to your world and setting and how those two can intertwine and interact.
00:59:04
Speaker
i think is I think is really cool from a craft perspective um and maybe how how they... clash with each other, right? Of like her, you know, main character being a woman and dealing with poverty and inheritance and all of that in this, in this, in, you know, beginning of our industrialization.
00:59:26
Speaker
so Yeah. And I love just... Well, I don't know. its It's so fascinating talking to authors and realizing like how much they're juggling, right? Because you're not just telling an entertaining story. You're also doing historical research and you're saying something like...
00:59:43
Speaker
I think all the best stories do have a theme. no No offense to anyone who doesn't. I mean, maybe minor offense. i'm I'm going to say major offense. I'm actually i'm going to take the strong position that if your works are not saying something and not broadcasting your feelings, you're doing something wrong.
01:00:03
Speaker
Weak sauce. You heard it here first. You are weak sauce. um Actually, I do agree with that. I'm just a people pleaser and you're not. recovering people pleaser and that's why you got to go to the other end of the spectrum yeah um yeah I do I do strongly believe that like theme is very like it's kind of it's it's a lot of it is where the author comes into the story I think right because that's you know you can Your characters can do and say whatever.
01:00:35
Speaker
But at the end of the day, what your story says of the whole is kind of what you, the author, like that. And that's why said it once and I'll say it again. i cannot separate the art from the artist and I don't want to.
01:00:48
Speaker
so i'm not Theme. This was a good one. I really enjoyed this. Yeah. Yeah. It was very cool. It was very awesome for, I think, ah a subject in craft that is sometimes more elusive.
01:01:02
Speaker
yeah It's kind of like hard to pin down. Yeah. If only listeners could see what I just did with my hands right there. Yeah, it was a beautiful array of Karis pantomiming. Grabbing it. Yeah.
01:01:17
Speaker
Okay. Well, yeah, that's all. That's all we had for today. So that's theme. That's theme. Also, buy their book, which is coming out tomorrow.
01:01:28
Speaker
Tomorrow. Everybody, go buy it. We'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah. And you'll figure out how to do that. I certainly will. Perfect.