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Cartoons, Comics, and Curiosity: The Joy of Nature with Rosemary Mosco
0 Playsin 9 hours
This week on the Bird Joy Podcast, Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall sit down with science writer, naturalist, and illustrator Rosemary Mosco, the creative mind behind the beloved comic Bird and Moon. Known for blending humor, art, and ecology, Rosemary has built a unique space where birders, scientists, and curious nature lovers can laugh while learning about the natural world.
Rosemary is the author of The Birding Dictionary, named one of the Best Books of the Year by the American Birding Association. The pocket-sized guide celebrates birding language with witty definitions and playful illustrations that capture the quirks of birding culture. Her writing and illustrations have appeared in National Audubon Society publications and The New York Times, and she has written science books for readers of all ages on topics ranging from butterflies to the solar system.
In this episode, Dexter and Jason explore how drawing and observation shaped Rosemary’s path into science communication, and why comics are such a powerful tool for making complex ideas accessible. They discuss the culture and inside jokes of birding, the inspiration behind The Birding Dictionary, and how humor (see BloodCheep) can help people sit with the uncertainty and wonder that often come with science.
The conversation also reflects on belonging in nature spaces, the role of creativity in learning, and how curiosity — whether through a sketchbook, a comic panel, or a pair of binoculars — can change the way we notice the world around us.
From birding slang to creative science storytelling, this episode celebrates the joy of paying attention and the many ways art can invite people deeper into nature.
If you enjoy conversations about creativity, curiosity, and the culture of birding, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Season 4 with Rosemary Mosco
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to season four of the bird joy podcast. Your hosts Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall are back with more birds, more bird joy, and plenty of laughs along the way. Each episode brings new stories, fun conversations, and a whole flock of good vibes. We're happy you're here. We really miss the homies and we hope you enjoy this season.
00:00:23
Speaker
You ready? Let's go. Welcome back to the Bird Joy podcast, homie. I'm Jason Hall. I'm here with my incredible co-host, Dexter Patterson.
00:00:33
Speaker
And today, today we are excited to bring somebody on this podcast that I've been waiting to talk to for a long time. We are excited to welcome our homie Rosemary Mosco, science writer, naturalist, illustrator, and creator of the beloved comic, Bird and Moon.
Rosemary's Works and Inspirations
00:00:50
Speaker
Rosemary has a unique gift for mixing art and science in ways that make ecology feel accessible, joyful, and hilarious. She's the author of the Birding Dictionary, named one of American Birding Association's best books of the year.
00:01:05
Speaker
a clever, pocket-sized guide celebrating birding language through clever definitions and illustrations. She's written acclaimed science books for kids and adults on the solar system, butterflies, backyard nature, and more.
00:01:16
Speaker
Her work has appeared in Audubon, The New York Times, and other national exhibits. Today, we'll talk about birding culture, comics and science communication, and how humor and curiosity help people see the world differently.
00:01:30
Speaker
Rosemary, welcome to the Bird Joy Podcast. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. You two are heroes of mine, so I'm super, super awesome. See, here we go again. We're making this plush. We gotta stop doing this.
00:01:44
Speaker
yeah I keep going. We could turn this around. just do that. This is this is fantastic. wow I love this so much. And, and you know, i teach science communication. So your work often comes up in the classroom and in the circles with my colleagues. People are always talking about this person gets it. And I'm like, she sure does, doesn't she? She really does.
00:02:11
Speaker
Let's talk about this this intersection of nature and art. And you've talked about how your early science education didn't really feel inspiring until you started drawing what you were curious about. And we talked to our artist friend about this, too. So I'm curious, what was that moment like? How did you how did art become your gateway into nature and science?
00:02:35
Speaker
Man, yeah, so it's hard to say because I feel like I've been doodling since I was really little, um but a lot of kids just kind of stop and I didn't. But I think um really for me, it wasn't about drawing so much as it was about cartoons, like really specifically. So I grew up in the 80s and early 90s when newspaper cartoons were the thing, right? Like you would, like on Sunday, you would grab the newspaper and like, yeah, and catch up and it was incredible. And all we had were like these pulpy, you know, Calvin and Hobbes collections, like millions of them. And so I thought like, this is how to communicate with people in ways that they'll find fun. And then I realized that if I started including some of the science I was reading about, that that made it sort of weird and different and and interesting. I think that the moment that it really clicked for me though, was I was at a summer camp and they had this guy come from the museum. This guy, mike Michael Levy came from the local museum and you know, they'd have workshops. Someone would give us like a boring lecture whatever. But this guy just, he had no slides, he had nothing. He just slapped this huge sketch pad on the ground and pulled out these giant markers. And he went, okay, let's go through the history of life. And he just started drawing like trilobites and like, and and doing little voices like, oh no, don't eat me, you know, kind of thing. And I was, as a kid, I was like, Wait, science is great.
00:03:53
Speaker
it just It was incredible. It was so effective. And that's all I wanted to And i actually recently ran into him again. And I was like giving him a big hug. Like you were the the guy like you realized I could do this. Yeah, it was really cartoons that did it for me.
00:04:08
Speaker
We had the best cartoons, too, in the 80s and the I know, man. It was like pages and pages, you know? pop would put away whatever. Like, you know, he'd be reading the serious stuff, and I could get some Calvin and Hobbes in, right? I could get some other stuff in, some Peanuts maybe.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I read Doonesbury, pretend I knew what it was talking about. Yeah, right? And what was the other one? what was the homie that was eating the burgers? Archie? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, yeah. He was always eating burgers. Yeah, and there was like no plot, and I read so many. None whatsoever. Homies just eating burgers all the time. It makes me laugh because that's the feeling that your comics give me now, right? It's like, I gotta say this. The latest comic about how to get into the nature where the person finishes it with being engulfed by moss That had me crying.
The Role of Humor in Science and Birding
00:04:56
Speaker
I was like, this is so good. Because this is what I think a lot of us feel is like we just want to be in a quiet forest, getting engulfed by moss and letting ourselves go back to nature. like it like And it made me laugh. Yeah, it just made me laugh so hard. Because the best part about some of your comics, too, is like you're swiping across, especially on like Instagram.
00:05:19
Speaker
They're jokes, but because of the swipe, they're like perfectly timed. So you swipe to that last one and boom, it just gets you and you're just on the floor crying laughing. So good. So when you started making comics for birders and for scientists, like, did you set out to teach first? Did you set out to make people lay on the floor laughing first? Like, how did those goals kind of interact for you when you were coming through this process?
00:05:42
Speaker
I think I wanted to do both. You know, maybe you were kids like this, but I was one of those kids. Like i that i I dread, like thinking about it, I just feel so bad for the people around me who had to deal with this kid. So I would just go up to an adult who I didn't know and I'd be like, do you wanna know all the animals that live in the Amazon rainforest? And I just start like telling me, like, no, like, hi, I'm Rosemary. Like, just like, I need to tell you all these facts.
00:06:08
Speaker
And then I realized that people would be more likely to enjoy them if there was a joke there. Like I just wanted, i simultaneously wanted approval and wanted people to just absorb all of these facts. So science communication is, it was a good way to to do it if you do it effectively. Although I have since learned that you do have to listen to and respect your audience, which was a key piece that did not possess as a child. Yeah.
00:06:32
Speaker
Why did I just envision the little homie from Jerry Maguire? Did you know the human head is eight pounds? When Jurassic Park came out, i don't it was such a big deal. Like, I don't know if it was a big deal for all nature kids. Like, was it a big deal for you too? That's why I became a scientist. That movie.
00:06:52
Speaker
Period. Okay. Okay. So I went to see it with some like nerd friends and we spent the whole time just being like, well, that's not accurate. Well, that's not accurate. and then afterwards we were like, that is the greatest movie we've ever seen. So incredible. It was just, yeah, it was, it was just like a love letter to science and the scientists were the really cool ones. i mean, there was like a paleobotanist, like it was amazing. So yeah, yeah. A hundred percent that, that nerdy kid, I was like, uh, my parents are going to tell me I'm that nerdy kid.
00:07:24
Speaker
That's incredible. They were not wrong. yeah So that movie made you become a scientist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's incredible. mom was my first, ah I think it was rated R back then or something. I was like 91 or 93. It was like the first big boy movie I could go see.
00:07:40
Speaker
And my mom knew I loved science and dinosaurs and all that stuff. So. Rolled to the theater down downtown Pasadena, California. And once I saw them scientists plug that frog DNA to that brontosaurus, I was like, yo, listen. Wait, you were like, I'm going to do that. That is it. That is it. actually got all the way to college. I was a genetics major until I realized, ooh, I don't want to do that.
00:08:06
Speaker
that is That is a little bit less interesting than I thought it was. so um But yeah, I wonder, like, For me, that was my influences, like how I got started as a scientist. Like what were some of your early art influences though? Like we talked about the comics on Sunday. Like, did you have a particular artist that you really love to follow? So we talked about dinosaurs. This guy named Stout, who like, I think he was a cartoonist for, for spawn comics or something, but he came out with this book about dinosaurs that was called, I think it was just called the dinosaurs or the new dinosaurs or something like that. But it was like in the style of, it was an art nouveau page and there were all these like, you know, different kind of like Some are realistic and some are really gonzo cartoony, and that really influenced me. William Stout, my biggest influence for sure, besides bird guides, have you read little known and seldom seen birds of North America? Do you know this book, these books? I've never seen that. Okay, there are, there's there's two books in this series, and then they also came out with a humorous birdwatching dictionary, or so sorry, humorous birdwatching magazine called Beyond Birdwatching. So it was this, these three people, Ben Catherine and John s Sill,
00:09:14
Speaker
And they made these bird guides that had fake birds, but they were like exquisitely watercolor illustrated as good as a field guide. And the birds were like, there was just like ah ah a vulture, but it had like spectacular blonde hair. Or there was like a duck that had like a target on its tummy or like it was all like very dry. And I didn't.
00:09:34
Speaker
Get it at first. Because I read it when I was young enough that I was like, oh, field guides are serious. This is just a whole series of birds that I didn't realize, you know weren't real. And then I slowly, took me ages to get the joke. There was one page where they had like greater and lesser yellow legs. I mean, these jokes were so cheesy. This is like where I get it. And they were postulating other hypothetical yellow legs, like middle yellow legs and like greatest yellow legs and like all this stuff. And they had a whole chart. But it was so- medium yeah it was So incredible, it so dry, so like unexpected. And those and that was kind of a mind blowing moment to me that you can do this, you can be this dry, but you're actually being funny. And the art was incredible too. So that helped, yeah.
00:10:17
Speaker
I love that. I had taken a screenshot the other day. i was looking at my birding life list and there was egrets and it said like great egret, medium egret, from little egret. And I just like took a screenshot and I was like, we don't like any seasoning on our bird names. Like what, if we couldn't do anything better.
00:10:32
Speaker
And that, like zero solid field marks. It's so unhelpful too, because it's like you see the medium one and you're like, compared to what? What am I supposed to do with this? It's stupid. like It makes me laugh too about your comic where you have, you go into that kind of juxtaposition and you have, um instead of least bitter, and you have the most bitter, and he's like stomping on a city. Oh, that makes me cry.
00:10:57
Speaker
That one makes me cry. That's another one where I swiped and then just fell out. So looks folks need to go check it oh that makes me happy. You use comics as this gateway to curiosity and joy. And your comic specifically, Bird and Moon, has become a space where scientific concepts meet that humor. Why do you think that combination works so well and invites people into some deeper learning? I think it's because there's something sticky about adding humor to science. It just makes, makes you remember it better. So, or just any kind of like interest. So I remember taking this art history class in college and the teacher, it was an architecture class and the the teacher had us just straight up memorize something like 300 buildings. and we were all so bored. And then one of the buildings, she told us the story that it was like this guy had made it for his mistress and it was really ostentatious and like everybody could see that he loved his mistress more and this whole seedy story. And we all remembered it and she made some joke about, oh, well you all on the test, you all got that one right. And it was because she had made it interesting. So like adding a story or adding, you know, some humor to something can can spread it to places you wouldn't expect. So last Valentine's
Balancing Humor and Accuracy in Comics
00:12:09
Speaker
Day, i made a comic and with all my comics, I make them and I think no one's going to find this funny. What's wrong with me? You know, and then...
00:12:16
Speaker
80% of the time they do. But I made this comic that ended with a joke about the phosphorus cycle, which I struggled to learn in grad school. Like I just could not. It was, there's so many of these cycles and this one for some reason was just not sticking with me. So I made a joke about it and all these people were talking about the phosphorus cycle. And it's incredible how if you just put a little joke, you can get the driest stuff.
00:12:39
Speaker
No offense to anyone who loves the phosphorus cycle. I remember scientists who said, oh, I studied the phosphorus cycle. don't know if those people are in our demographic. The phosphorus cycle demographic. That's a different podcast. That's the phosphorus joy. Yeah. So it it really shows how how helpful it is for education to add a little bit.
00:12:58
Speaker
that stuff. I love that. And it's, it really does make it stick. Even like, I know when we do bird walks and stuff. I think sometimes when we make jokes about different kinds of birds and stuff, it makes people laugh and then they, and then they remember, like they remember why that bird is, is different. And in the, this part is really interesting is in the, in the Audubon piece, you mentioned that some of the comics let people sit with some ambiguity, you know, especially around the science of Can you talk more about that? Like, is there kind of an example of that in your work that folks can kind of see how that, how that plays itself out? So I'm trying to think which one specifically I was talking about. So, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that remains to be discovered about a lot of the creatures that we're learning about. And so I often like to emphasize that there's room for, especially when I'm writing picture books or cartoons for younger kids, that there's room for exploration. I feel like that wasn't
00:13:51
Speaker
emphasized to me when I was a kid with all the books I read, they all sort of implied that what we knew was what we knew. you know, it was all perfect and science was done and complete. And then I remember reading this one book about whales by this guy, Mark Carwardine.
00:14:07
Speaker
carboardine I'm not sure how you say it. He was one of the guys from Last Chance to See, that book in the show. And he he included in his book all these these whales that we didn't know anything about. There are a bunch of whales that are rare and live way out in the ocean. And so he filled his book with question marks, you know, like there'd be, you know, location and there'd be question marks or diet and question marks. And that was the first book like that where I realized there was space for someone like me find out things and add. So that feels important. And it doesn't feel like doing a disservice to the science to say, okay, here's what we know. Now come help us fill in the parts that we don't know.
00:14:42
Speaker
um So i try to be I try to be really careful about the stuff, the facts that we're aware of and the facts that we aren't. And nobody notices or cares. It's so funny. I made this comic about like part bird abilities that I wished... that I could have. And one of them was eating, think it was eating pink food to become pink or like taking the pink food food and becoming pink. And I wrote that. And then I realized, wait, are the animals they're eating actually pink? Are they taking the pink substances or are they making pink out? Like I, you know, I went down this very boring rabbit hole and I eventually in the end changed it to something like
00:15:19
Speaker
Eating food to become pink or something like that. And like really and narrowed it down to make sure that it was accurate in a way that no one will care about or notice. But it's all really important to me. There's like 100 papers behind every cartoon. No, but there's some there's some young kids out there that you're their Jurassic Park moment. And they're looking at your comics and being like, that is not accurate. But then they're like, this is the greatest comic I've ever seen in my life. But I love that you take the time to to stress that and try to get it right. And where you can't, that ambiguity almost feels like you leave it as an invitation. Hey, we don't know, yeah but come on in here and let's not take ourselves too seriously and let's figure it out. You know, i love that. I love that a lot. That's so important for science communication. that's probably the thing that I most got out of my, I did a graduate degree that had a science communication component. and And one of the hardest habits to break was every time I'd write an assignment, I want to start it with, you probably don't know that.
00:16:09
Speaker
or like most people are unaware of that, or like, you know, like coming from a place of like, I know a thing you don't, ha ha ha. And it's, and you see it all the time, right? All the time. And you can't, and it's, we all do it all the time. And it and so I had to break myself out of that mold of like, I know something you don't know, clearly don't know it. Cause some people do, they know things and you have to meet them halfway. Meet your audience where they are. That is a great science communication tactic.
Impact of Rosemary's Comics on Readers
00:16:39
Speaker
Is there a favorite comic that of yours that changed somebody's perspective that kind of stuck with you?
00:16:46
Speaker
Oh, that's a really good question. i had ah so years ago, it's no longer online anywhere, but I did an urban nature cartoon when I was living in Toronto, Canada. I don't know why I specified that, but some people don't know.
00:17:02
Speaker
where it is. I had this urban nature strip in this local blog and I did a comic about pigeons, which has now become a huge part of my world is talking about how great pigeons are. But this was long before that. And someone emailed me and said, thank you for your comic. I will no longer kick the pigeons. Jesus. And one, i mean, I'm assuming he wasn't successful. He was just kind of flailing at pigeons. But two, that the fact that I was able to turn someone from like an evil yeah deation Evil pigeon kicker. Yeah, with like a little tiny thing. Exactly. but I'm feeling. That's great.
00:17:46
Speaker
He looks at the pigeon and suddenly that single tear is falling. I know. oh yeah you're out here. out here changing the world. Have you had any like audience reactions that like you didn't think it was going to hit like that, but it just surprised you how well it landed? Yeah. The one that really stands out for me is, so i did this comic about Cardinals molting. Oh, suck.
00:18:10
Speaker
This was one of the best ones. This was one of those ones where I was like, no one's going to find this funny. Like, this is just me and that's okay. But it was about how cardinals will sometimes undergo what's called the catastrophic molt. So they'll lose all the feathers on their head all at once. It's it's totally safe. It's fine. They... seem to do it after the breeding season is over and they no longer have to look good. So they'll just drop everything. And they have this kind of like purpley pink flesh underneath. It's all wrinkly. Like it looks like the Skeksis from Dark Crystal. They're really freaking looking. And then they grow back. So I did this comic where I show the types of Northern Cardinals and I have like a juvenile and an adult. And then I have this bald one and I named it Bloodcheap, the Molt Demon from the Cursed Abyss. And I put like gratuitous umlauts in Bloodcheap because I'm like big metal fan. So I put like something.
00:18:58
Speaker
Totally pointless. zoom month And I thought, okay, no one's going to find this funny. Put it on the internet. Some people, you know, kind of like, ah you know, seem to enjoy it. And then I moved on. And this was a few years ago. And then last summer, a friend of mine reached out and said, did you know that there is a subreddit? So the website Reddit has these little subreddit.
00:19:16
Speaker
forums called subreddits and there's one called blood cheap and it's this community built around bald headed birds and they just post and they have created this universe so like there's blue jays they're called blue cheaps there's like raffle cheaps there's like brown cheaps those are brown thrashers and they just post all these bald things and they make like art and there's like thousands of people this like hard world and it was incredible it was like you don't know what's going to happen when you put something on the internet for good or for evil, you know, true that was really touching and amazing. Oh, I just, I just pulled it off the website. Okay. We're going to have to link this one in the show notes. I posted, I got sent to that. I got sent
Creating the Birding Dictionary
00:20:02
Speaker
to that. I posted picture of a blue jay that was multi. And I said, I said, don't worry, little homey, your glow up is coming soon. And I posted the, bald blue jay and so many people were like do you know about this reddit like they just like it was insane but i got there and i'm i have tears in my eyes right now because it is whole funny ever so so a Reddit sub but thread in the podcast. No, and nobody, like, didn't know this was real. Like, they credited me. Like, they credited my comic. was, like, super, super sweet. I mean, I wouldn't have cared if they hadn't. Like, you know, it's just cool and something. You make something and it has weird ripples. But I actually went and posted on there. I was like, hey, this, like, made my day. Like, I was, like, crying when I found out about it. And they all replied with a visit from the Queen Chief. And they put, like, their hoo-blowns.
00:20:51
Speaker
And they all called me Queen Chief. And they were just like, This is the greatest team of my life. I can't take it. Oh, God. We're going to have to edit out all this laughing because I'm over here. This is so good. This is so good. Bald-headed birds. All right. I'm trying to move on, folks. I'm trying to move on from the bald-headed homies.
00:21:15
Speaker
Did you see your blue jay get better? Like, did you see it? and yeah Oh, no, I give up. I'm going have to share the picture. It is absolutely hilarious. So maybe we can throw that on, Jason, in one of i love it are our little promo videos that we put together. All right, let's shift a little bit to this book, your new book, The Burning Dictionary. How did that idea start? Did it come from a single moment of like hearing a burning term that made you laugh or was it kind of more gradual and you're like, I got something here?
00:21:50
Speaker
It happened really in a way more boring way than that. So I have this publisher, Workman, who I've done a couple books with, and they did my pigeon book and I co-wrote a book for Atlas Obscura with them. They've been really great. And um they reached out and they said, we're... restarting a series of humorous hobby dictionaries. So they had had these dictionaries, I guess in like the seventies and eighties or something, there was like a golfing one. There were all these like hobby specific dictionaries. And they said, we want to start with birding. Do you want to do a humorous birding dictionary? And my agent kind of sent it to me and he's like, oh, I don't know if you want to do this like little project. going a little thing. And I was like, I could do that in my sleep. That sounds incredible. a Yeah. A thousand times. That's all I want to do. I just want to do that one. And he was like, really? I was like, that's the one. that's um I was so happy. But then I had this moment of, oh no, what if I don't know enough burning terms? So I sat down.
00:22:44
Speaker
i mean, I'm curious. You two would have like thousands in like five seconds. I just started writing them down and I was like, wait, there are so many. Like our, our hobby is just full of language. That's weird and funny. And so, yeah. And then I, I started writing the dictionary and it was, it was an interesting experience because I've never written something that's pure comedy before. There are facts in it, but it's much more comedy centric. So I don't know how comedians do it. Cause by the end of it, I was like, I am the least funny person in the world. Like you write a joke and then edit it for five months. Yeah. Yeah. And you're just tweaking it and tweaking it you're like, I'm the world's most boring person. Yeah, it was a blast. It was really fun. And it's been nice going around and talking about a book that is funny.
00:23:29
Speaker
I wasn't expecting things to be so difficult in the world. And so people have been appreciating the moment of being silly. i think about your book every time I pish for bird. was on time, for sure. It was on time. Yeah. yeah the yeah The definition of pish, where like one of two things is going to happen, either a flock of birds is going to come out or you're going to find yourself standing there in silent humiliation.
00:23:51
Speaker
i I think of that every time I pish for a bird. Like, come on, guys. Have you that too? Like, it's not- Like, guys don't humiliate me. Yeah. Because if you're with people you don't know, and you're like, I'm going to do this really cool thing, you know, and you start making this weird noise and nothing happens, and your friends are like- Everybody at the bird walk is looking. Can we move on? it'd be like beginner birder. Like, did he just have an episode? Is he okay? Like, oh, but the the book celebrates inside jokes, celebrates birding knowledge jokes. It's good for a beginner as well, because in each kind of frame of a definition, you give the actual definition, but then you embellish into these more funnier, comical types of things. What was your process for deciding how literal or playful to be with that? Like, did you find yourself just sitting there laughing as you wrote these? like Where you just don't face Sirius the whole time.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, so some of them are not factual at all. So I think at one point I defined an egg as a type of rock that often has a small bird in it. um
00:24:54
Speaker
You have to edit out the laughing for me next day. I don't know. But then there were other ones. I kind of tried to balance it. So it was important to me to have definitions that were that anyone could enjoy and then to have some more specific ones. So one thing that I've always, and I think you two as well, have always kind of like had as a soapbox is anyone can enjoy this stuff and you don't need to know this terminology. So i remember going to a science communication conference and someone said,
00:25:22
Speaker
Remember, we tend to underestimate people's intelligence and overestimate their vocabulary. So we assume people just, you know, just know all these weird words like jizz and twitch and whatever. and And then we're like, oh, you're not smart enough, but they just haven't been exposed. So I tried to include some really hyper-specific ones and then some general ones. And I always tried to explain what it was, unless it was something like egg. Yeah.
00:25:45
Speaker
But yeah, and then some of them honestly were just, I wanted to share a fact and almost, you know, almost no one knows. Like I have a, there's a bird called the Oleaginus hemisphingus, which is a real type bird. Oh boy.
00:25:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I just included it because I think it's incredible that there's a bird called Liegenus happy spankus. I am I looking it up right now? It's a boring bird. Like, it's not an exciting looking bird. dull olive yellow bird of the family Theropidae.
00:26:18
Speaker
lives in the mountains of Northeast South America. Judging from its name, it is presumably quite oily and has only half a spingus. Poor thing.
00:26:28
Speaker
attempt
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, I guess it's better than Middle Egret, but not much better. Yeah, it's got it's got is it's got a little bit more seasoning to his name, for sure. Or oil. Rosemary, the book actually was named one of the best books of a year by the American Birding Association. What does that recognition mean to you? You know, especially for a book that is part dictionary and part...
00:26:58
Speaker
I'm just having some fun here and and really just kind of celebrating a culture. What does that mean to you? I mean, so much. I love the ABA. They've been really nice to me. Yeah, I don't know. It's ah I don't make the kind of stuff that is ever going to be, you know, a giant worldwide hit. I'm fine with that. Having my peers say, hey, this made me have a you know a good day just is all that I care about.
Humor and Inclusivity in Birding
00:27:25
Speaker
So yeah, that map meant a lot to me. oh That's incredible. It's kind of the same thing we get when we bird with one another and we put somebody on a new bird, right? You watch that smile start to streak across their face, right? I think the same thing think the same thing happens with your book and with the comics as well.
00:27:42
Speaker
And it's something people don't talk about often, like how the joy and the obsession of birding can kind of come together in these ways that express itself. comedically. What do you think this approach to birding teaches us about paying attention? And and and do you think any of that is reflected in the dictionary itself? Yeah, I feel like, like I've said, like one really nice thing is that you can share facts with people in a way that will, you know, stick with them and crack them up. If you add a little bit of humor, you add a little bit of interest to it. So that's been kind of a nice thing. So like when you're out birding with people and you're talking with them,
00:28:16
Speaker
you know There are ways to make them feel like like they're having a good time and like they're welcomed versus ways to sort of you know say, oh, you don't know what so-and-so so means or whatever. But I feel like ah anything we can do to help people look at birds in every possible way helps. So I know that you know there's been a lot of controversy, for example, about comics and graphic novels and whether it's real reading for kids and what you know, the scientists I know have found is that you can reach different audiences if you reach people in different ways, you know, same with your videos or with podcasts or all that stuff, you're reaching different audiences. So I think it feels good to be approaching birding in another way.
00:28:56
Speaker
um I've also done a lot of workshops where I have people, you know, go outside and take five minutes and just try to observe something funny. in the world around them and, and think about something that would make a good comic and they all come back laughing. And so it's a different way to look at, at the world too, is sort of like, what's a way that you can look at it that is less serious. Birding can be so serious, which is fine, but it's also funny and it's, it's, it's good for the soul to realize when it, when it is, you know, when you can inject some levity. it It's about the joy. Right. There's so much joy there. There's so much fun. It could be funny. It can be weird. It could be all of those things. That's what I love about it.
00:29:35
Speaker
That's how you reach people. always like when I create a video or even in my book, I wanted to include these fun facts about birds because of what I found is like the fun fact or a joke or those. mo That's what people remember. And now they're also learning and then maybe they're being more curious. And when I think about kids specifically, we've talked about this. They're so curious. So graphic novels and all of these different things really kind of taps into that playful curiosity and can really get a kid to pay attention or to say, hey, this is for me. Like, I'm into this.
00:30:08
Speaker
I'm really into this. and And maybe then they go for more serious stuff. and you know and But they're doing it because it it sparks something unique, like something real inside of them based off of something funny or different. Yeah. And you're making them care about it I mean, you're giving them a reason to care about it. Like, this makes me feel good. This makes me have a good time. This is really neat. I want to learn more. Like, that's so important. You can't you can't expect people to just blanket care about nature.
00:30:35
Speaker
because it's it exists like you have to give them a good reason i think so yeah 100 everything you just said but blow it up put it on a big poster i love that i'm gonna my son is obsessed with northern cardinals so he and anytime we see him in the backyard which has been a lot recently because everything's covered by snow and i've been spending a good portion of my paycheck on birdseed but i can't wait to show him blood sheet in august like it's like Because you were talking about how like you just, you find a way to connect with folks and like he's there. And I'm like, as you both read the Biggest Week in American Burning where i talked about getting him on the Sawed Out for the tattoo contest. And like, I want to keep it going. And like the blood sheet part, it's just a different character in his mind. And speaking of comics, like he does not want to read anything other than the Sonic the Hedgehog comics. And they have challenging words in there, right? yeah
00:31:22
Speaker
And they're like size eight font, you know? So I got to put my old man glasses on. But like people are not understanding that like, That can be such an incredible pathway for some kid that just doesn't want to read Harry Potter, so to speak. I really love that you put it in that frame is that it's it's kind of good for all ages, too. Yeah, I was considered a slow reader, which is so ironic now because I write books, you know, some for kids. And I read and write the time. called you slow reader, did you send them a couple signed copies? Like, did you? I mean, because...
00:31:50
Speaker
i would be petty I would be so petty right now. They're long gone. It was because i like the books they were trying to get us to read, they weren't my kinds of books. They were other kids' kinds of books for sure. But I just, I was like reading, I wasn't into them. I wasn't reading them very fast. And then my teacher was like, wait, what if we have a read like science books, like non non-fiction books? And I read the heck out of them. Like I just needed to read books about things I was interested in. Like that's so important.
00:32:18
Speaker
It's so important. So important. I think more more people should, it's not about the reading. It's about the topic. I got to find the right topic. Yeah. One day my son will bring home a book from the library about birds. Then I'll know. Well, I think with Sonic, there's like, oh, sorry. You know, it's a mammal, right? There's like a... Yeah, it's a hedgehog. Sorry, Dexter. No, no, no, no. I was just curious when the book came out and you started seeing how people reacted to it, were there moments where birders were reaching out about their own language and like giving you more like things that you've like, oh, that should have been in the book or, you know, like, I'm just curious, were there any of those moments where you're like, oh, I wish I thought about that one. Oh my goodness. Okay. Yes. I mean, I'm a one one person operation. So i there were a couple where I realized, shoot, I should have included them. So one of them was One Day Wonder, which is when a bird shows up and it's there for one day and then it's gone, you know, a rare bird. And I completely just completely forgot about One Day Wonder. I, there were a few that made me wish there could be like an international version. So there was, there was one person who reached out and I don't know how, I can't remember what exactly the words were and I wouldn't know how to say them anyway, cause it was German, but you know, our term LB LBJ, which is like a little Brown job, like a little, like a little sparrow or whatever that a ren and they're really hard to ID. They're like a huge challenge and they're fast. There's a German term apparently that has a different acronym and it means like small, fast, gone or something like that, which I thought was like incredible. That's dope. This entirely separate cultural term um popped up. There was another person who reached out and said that pigeon keepers, and this might have been Dutch or something, but they're called like dove milkers or something. I'm like, that's nice.
00:34:07
Speaker
So there are international terms that I'm not aware of that I think would have been so much fun, but there's always just more, you know, and there's so many intergenerational differences too. I mean, one of the funniest was i grew up with everybody using jizz.
00:34:22
Speaker
which the kids are not. No, no, at all they're not. which is good i think it's good um They're saying like vibes like that. Yeah, you know I was gonna say we tried to switch that to vibes a few years ago because we had a cup and say boomers in our local bird chat.
00:34:39
Speaker
I kept saying it and we were like, listen, y'all, we gotta say we gotta be better. It's like it's like the 2020s. Now we gotta be better. All right. Yeah, we can change. We can change. like We don't have to keep all of these things. um That's great. for sure yeah I wonder, too, because, you know, we talked a lot about birds here, but you've written books on butterflies, solar systems like what they're not necessarily the same topics, but like what stays constant in your approach? Is it always the same level of comedy? Is it more about the art sometimes, you know, depending on the age? Like, how do you kind of approach those things? Well, it pretty much always has poop jokes.
00:35:14
Speaker
All my editors. Of course. I actually just, I can't talk about it, but I pitched like the poop, most poop related thing. Like I'm kidding, like peak poop. There's poop and there's butts. Yeah.
00:35:27
Speaker
don't think
Engaging Young Readers with Comics
00:35:28
Speaker
that was what you were looking for. But no, it's really a lot of it is just like mixing humor that, you know, is just can be silly and gross with enthusiasm. Like I just want, I just like, I try not to be mean. There are couple times when I get on soapboxes. So in the dictionary, I have a definition of birding. And I basically say that if you're the kind of person who says to someone, they're not a real birder, then It's not the book for you, homie. Put it down. Yeah. So yeah, I like sneak in some soapbox stuff. Good. But mostly it's just like, don't be a jerk and be excited about the world. And then I throw in a butt to make that more serious.
00:36:08
Speaker
I love it. How do I want to phrase this? Have you learned from your readers, both young and old, about how they engage with science books versus your comics? Like, have you seen a difference between the two, you know, between the science books that you put out in your comics? I'm just curious about that.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. One thing that has really surprised me is that younger folks, when they find a book that they like, it becomes their whole deal. It's really interesting. So, and I remember this as a kid, it makes me feel so happy. There were some books where my whole identity was this book. You know, like this book is me and I carried it, you know, I would carry it in my bag everywhere. So I was at an event and this happened a few times kind of similar things, but this was the most intense example I can think of was I was at an event and at the end I gave a talk. I think it might've had a pigeon component in it, but this kid puts up their hand and they said, i love your book. I carry it with me everywhere. i'm always like using it to correct my teachers with, which I thought was really funny. Yeah. And they said, and I have a list of questions and it's like, I have like 15 questions or something. And they started asking them and I said, okay. And I answered a couple and then I, so you know, other people had their hands up and I said, come meet me after, after we're done and I'll go through your questions. And so they came up afterwards and started asking their questions and they were just like, so it was their whole thing. And it, was so powerful because I feel like that doesn't happen online as much. It's like if I would encourage anyone who has a chance to write a book, your book might not, like i said, like be a giant bestseller, but there will be like a handful of kids that you specifically connect with. And you can think of books like that when you're younger that were lifesaving books for you. You're that book. That is what you've created for someone else. And that is the coolest feeling. I mean, it's it's too bad that it involves a lot of time A lot of printing and all this work. But that that felt incredible. Like that was just, you know, this kid who reminded me so much of me, you know, this like really science oriented kid was just like, this is my, this is me. And I was like, yes.
00:38:12
Speaker
And of course that kid had 15 questions. You were asking 20. Exactly. yeah I love it. That's great. and And for folks to know, the book is called a Pocket Guide to Pigeon Watching, Getting to Know the World's Most Misunderstood Bird. So homie was rolling around. He was strapped up with that and he was choosing violence with his teachers. Yes.
00:38:34
Speaker
It was great. I wonder, like, we've heard a lot of examples, I think, of how your book in conversation has opened up nature to folks. Have you ever had a chance to like kind of take it out in the field? Have you ever done a bird walk with the bird dictionary? Have you ever, you know, have you seen people out, you know, this young man is one example, but it's just out on bird walks where the humor of the book is used to kind of ingratiate people into the space or is it something you'd be interested in? really like that. No, I haven't done that. I don't do bird walks as much, but I do do a lot of workshops at bird festivals. I'll do those. so I'll do comics making workshops for kids and adults. And I've used my books as gateways for those. So those have been really, really fun. Cause I feel like that's, it's one of those things is people assume that they can't make comics, but what's amazing is the workshops can be like an hour, hour and a half long. And by the end of it, everybody has made something funnier than I could make in a, in a full day. I love that. yeah Incredible comics. So that has been fun is kind of to use people, that to like power people. But no, I think it would be fun to incorporate it into a bird walk. That would be really cool. How many terms can you use? Yeah, because I have, I had a few copies of your book. I was able to give them to some folks in the bird club, but the copy I keep is copy you signed for me.
00:39:50
Speaker
And I was just wondering, because I think we talk about this and like Dexter and I are sitting here cracking up laughing, but I think having it out in the field, maybe sometimes to lighten the load. for people that may be feeling intimidated at that moment and maybe just sit there and and read out loud the definition of jizz and then just go about our birding day you know well we don't have to pick jizz ah no i love that though oh we are not serious at all folks no um this is oh i have not laughed this much in a long time my soul is so happy right now this is this is so good When I'm thinking about humor, obviously, this is there's so much joy in this conversation already. But we often talk about access and belonging in nature and how nature spaces aren't always welcoming for everyone. And how have you seen humor open up doors, whether it's people that may be intimidated by science or folks who feel like outside or burning culture isn't for them? How have you seen humor change that for some folks?
00:40:52
Speaker
I mean, I think 100% I've seen people consume my stuff and then say, oh actually, I am a birder. Oh, actually, I am into this stuff. You know, there's someone here who I can identify with. You know, I'm not I'm not a scientist. I'm not even trained artist. But if someone can look at what I do and say, oh, well, I can do this stuff. It's ah it's achievable. That feels really good. I mean, I think laughter can break the ice, too, 100%.
00:41:19
Speaker
hundred percent I feel like, I don't know, it's tough, though, because I've also seen people use humor in ways that can be really cutting or really cruel. Like I've seen people use humor in ways that have you know made me feel excluded, made other people feel excluded. I think it's important to remember that there are ways to make jokes without being a monster about it. I feel like that's also really important because I've seen humor just fall so flat because it's being used to make fun of people. And so I try to show, and I think there's a lot of other people showing too, that there are ways to use humor to bring people in instead of push them out. But yeah, once once you you know you make a place fun and accessible and joyful.
00:42:00
Speaker
i mean, I've been to some feminist bird club walks where everybody's just having an amazing time. They're all just joking around. They're so happy. And the contrast between that and some of the bird walks I've been on where people are a little more you know, challenging and condescending is just, it's night and day. So yeah, creating environments that allow for humor and joy is, as you know, is ah critically important. Cause there are events, and I'm sure you've had this too, where I've just, you know, there are things I've done where I've quietly just not gone back and those groups don't know why that happened. It's usually because they're like, shh, or they're like, you know,
00:42:36
Speaker
Don't they're not open to people asking questions. We've had this conversation as well. Or they just assume you know what they know. And they're talking down to people that don't know something or, oh, that's just this or that's just one of those. Like, well, that's the first time I've seen this. What's wrong with you people? like something Yeah. You know?
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah. I think the one thing that gets me. oh I'm sorry. Go ahead. Resume. Oh, no, no, go ahead. I was going say, I think the one thing that gets me is like, it's very simple to correct somebody in the most empathetic and loving way when you're birding.
00:43:09
Speaker
But if your first way of correcting them is to yell across the other 20 people there and be like, hey, that's not what this is. This is this, like, which I've seen that done to children, right? Like that's, that's not, that's just terrible, right? Like rather than we go,
00:43:24
Speaker
go slide up next to him. Hey, I think that might be this. What, what made you think it was that? Like, what were you looking at? Tell me about it. And like, and just get them to be like, it's okay. But I think that's a lot of what your books do is they, they teach people not to take themselves so seriously first,
00:43:44
Speaker
And then it teaches them, hey, I can still take the bird seriously while finding joy and humor in them. Like that's such an incredible line you connected there. is that Was that always the intent you think with that is to connect it just like that? Or is there other things you want your readers and and and folks to feel when they engage with your comics and books? I mean, I think that's it. I also have some ones that are just polemical, like, you know, about climate change or whatever, right? I have like a really direct message. Yeah, that feels like a lot of it. It is hard. I mean, you might have this too, is as communicators, people sometimes assume that that means that we don't know very much. And so people who communicate science, whether they're scientists, whether or not scientists, like there are studies suggesting that those people are taken less seriously because you're sort of seen as more fancy if you just kind of stay in your little world and you write your papers and you don't try to- Nobody reads your papers.
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So I feel like it's really important. So the graduate program I went to we had this really fascinating thing that we did. it was kind of, a really hippie program in Vermont. And we had this fascinating class where every week we would have a question and it would be something really strange. Like, you know, how does gravity work or like are animals larger, closer to the poles versus closer to the tropics? They're just various things, but we were supposed to think about them without looking anything, which it turns out means you ask a lot of quote unquote, stupid questions. And at first, when you're in an academic setting, that feels so wrong because you don't want to expose yourself to looking silly. But then eventually you realize, no, those are the best questions. That's where you get to the really meaty stuff. And so we all of the people in my program wound up being the people, you know, when we were in training as TAs or whatever, who would say, I don't get this. Explain that more. Like, how do I make this more accessible? I don't get this part. And I feel like all academics need to be able to say, hold on, I don't understand. It's not something that they say at all. No, it's so important. It's, it's, um, creating like a place where we can all, you know, be more vulnerable while still maintaining a sense of that. We're, that we're like intelligent people, I think is important.
00:45:50
Speaker
me too I love that. Yeah. I love that. Have you had any unexpected audiences where you came across a group of people? I'm like, wow, y'all read my book? Y'all read my comics? Like, yeah, you weird. Okay. So one time you're gonna laugh so hard at me right now One time, this is more of my comics, but I was out in the middle of a swamp in the middle of April looking for salamanders. They migrate at night to their vernal pools. Oh, you just got Dexter's attention. Yes. Okay. So I was, so I was at this incredible place. Yeah. This was a spot that has blue spotted salamanders. So was like incredible. And so I'm out in this terrifying woods and I got my flashlight and I'm like out and you know, I had a couple of friends with me and I come to this vernal pool and there's a, there's someone coming at me from the other direction who also has a flashlight. There was like a stranger in the woods. So was like, how this guy's like, oh, hey, I'm so-and-so. And I was like, oh, hi, I'm Rosemary. And he went, are you Rosemary Moscow? And i was like, yeah. And he's like, oh my God, I love your comics. I love your work. And my friends were like, oh my goodness, like incredible. What are the odds that this guy knows your work? And then they thought about it for a second and they were like, well, the odds that a guy who's in a swamp at 2 a.m. in the dark looking for salamanders knows your work is actually pretty high because that's a small selected population.
Personal Connections with Nature
00:47:06
Speaker
So that wasn't actually that much of a compliment. Target audience.
00:47:13
Speaker
So yeah, i was I was super honored though. And then we found our salamanders. i love that you're looking for salamanders too, right? Like that's dope. I just got just Googled it and it looks incredible. It's beautiful creature.
00:47:24
Speaker
Oh, I'm secretly not as much of a birder as I pretend to be. I'm like really and a naturalist. Like I'm butterflying and look at moths, all that stuff. Listen, if you wrote a book on salamanders, a comic a comic a comic's guide to salamanders, I would love to help promote that for you.
00:47:43
Speaker
Yeah, it would be that meme where it was like, shut up and take my money. Yeah. They really are great. They're just, do you ever have a moment where you learn about an animal and it's like, it feels like falling in love? Like I took a herpetology class.
00:47:56
Speaker
Okay. yeah yeah Wait, so I want to hear your animal. So in my case, it was literally, I was in a herpetology class in grad school and the professor, he was like old school slideshow, like puts up a slide and it's a blue spotted salamander. And it was like,
00:48:10
Speaker
Oh, now I'm in love. Like I'm in love. Like that I have to see this animal. And then and that week I went out and I saw one and I was like, my life has changed. This is all i care about. I had two on the same day, Rosemary.
00:48:23
Speaker
i held a baby goat and a salamander for the first time in the same day. And I've been smitten ever since. I i can't stop thinking about Bertha, the baby goat. And she's probably huge now. But then I held a salamander. Same day, i literally, i i will never be the same person. Like I tell people all the time, like similar to bird banding and you hold a bird for the first time and release it, you'll never be the same. You see ah owl in the in the forest and you have a stare down with an owl, you'll never be the same. You hold a baby goat, you'll never
Lightning Round with Rosemary
00:48:57
Speaker
be the same. Ever, ever be the same. And then I held my own salamander. literally flipped over a rock, and I saw it sitting there, and I was, like, freaking out. Ever since then, I'm like, now we're doing a herping and birding event in the spring, and, like, everything is changing. My life is will never be the same. Man.
00:49:18
Speaker
Jason, do you have a do you have a moment like that? I do. I was on, this is going to sound so pretentious. i was on safari with my wife in Africa, Tanzania, and we were introduced to the Dick Dick.
00:49:30
Speaker
D-I-K-D-I-K. They are tiny tiny little antelope and they are so absurd they they are just they're so little they don't look really real they look like characters from dr seuss and the part that was wild to me was that they have these like little black glands below their eyes where they rub like this little pheromone on like little pieces of bush around like it just it's just a wild thing to me it's a weird creature it's got kind of like a long like a proboscis nose kind of thing and it's got horns like it doesn't look you know It looks like it's from like some of Jim Henson's nightmares. Like it's, it's, it's wild. That was the one that I was like, I love everything about this creature. Um, I want to be this creature. So yeah.
00:50:11
Speaker
Man, but you didn't, you didn't get to hold it though. No, no. Cause I couldn't get out of the vehicle. Right. Cause lions and, uh, you know, yeah I can't, I can't run that fast.
00:50:23
Speaker
Oh, this is crazy. i I know it it sounds repetitive, Jason, but I can't believe like it's been an hour almost already. Yeah. But Rosemary, we cannot let you go without a little lightning round action.
00:50:37
Speaker
We are going to ask you a few questions. Just let us know what's the first thing that pops in your head when we ask it. OK? OK, I'm ready. All right. A burning term that always makes you laugh.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah. We already said jizz. think that's the one. Oh, man. All right. A species you never get tired of drawing.
00:51:07
Speaker
Okay, Laysan Albatross. I've never seen one. I love drawing them. their little faces are so amazing. Wisdom, the old one. The oldest. Love that. Comics or books? Which one sparks an idea first? Books, I think, for me.
00:51:22
Speaker
But then make a comic out of it. Love. All right. Something in nature that changed the way you pay attention.
00:51:32
Speaker
My friend studies beetles and she took me to a swamp and she just like reached into the muck and pulled out some muck and there were beetles in it, like these special swamp beetles.
00:51:43
Speaker
And I was like, there are beetles down there. blew my mind. can't look at mud the same way. I love that. All right. Favorite part nature that you think more people should share?
00:51:55
Speaker
Bogs. Bogs are amazing. I know more people are on the bog train now, but if there's a bog near you, they're full of carnivorous plants. They smell amazing. We have this view that they smell bad, but they're so cool.
00:52:08
Speaker
They're really weird. They want to eat you. Go to a bog. I'm gonna have to look up my nearest bog. Yeah, bogs are fantastic. Rosemary, thank you so much for sharing your creativity, your humor and your passion for connecting people to nature. This is one of the most favorite hour plus conversations I've ever had with any other humans ever in the history life. Yeah, my heart is so full. I can't thank you enough for for taking some time to be with us today. So thank you so much. Well, thank you for all you do for birding and birds. It's so important. And and yeah, you made my you made my whole afternoon too. So I appreciate it.
00:52:46
Speaker
All right. I'm to sneak one more in, Jason. Before we wrap up, Rosemary, what is one feeling or idea you hope listeners take with them after this conversation, whether it's about birding or nature as a whole, curiosity, or simply just noticing the world around them?
00:53:04
Speaker
I think the most important thing that I would want people to learn is to, when they're out in nature, don't just look at the way things are, but ask yourself, how did they get here? What are the human forces? What are the natural forces? i know those two are often combined. What landscape changes, what climate changes led to this being like this is? And when you kind of look at what's around you and you go, okay, what caused this? That will just open up the most incredible histories and stories for you. Don't just take it at face value, but start asking why. Be that annoying person who's like, why is it like... Why, why, why? Why are you so awesome, Rosemary? This was so good. You just totally gobsmacked me. This is so good. That's so nice. This is so good.
00:53:51
Speaker
Wow. Thank you so much. Seriously. yeah Yeah, thank you. I'm so glad we finally made this work like i When I got the flu, I was like, no, I'm going to get better because I can't move this. we're gonna have This is going to happen. So...
00:54:02
Speaker
You were my first non non-husband conversation. but We're glad to get you back out into the world. Thank you. Associated with other human beings. But to everybody out there, thanks again for listening. Remember, Birding is for everyone. Like, share, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or your socials. And we will see you all next time.