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Saying Goodbye Well: Seasons of Motherhood with Rachel Blackston and Susan Tucker
69 Plays6 days ago
Kindred Spirits and fellow writers for Red Tent Living, Rachel Blackston and Susan Tucker take time to ponder seasons on endings, specifically in the context of motherhood. From a story shared about the ending of childhood and start of the adolescent era to a longer look at the seasons of parting with a child as they embrace their adult independance, Rachel and Susan not only find language for the bittersweet grief of a mother learning to let go, but also the sacred privelege of raising securely attached children who want to leave and understand how to leave well. Wise and winsome, this conversation is a true delight.
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Transcript
Introduction to Red Tent Living Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary.
00:00:12
Speaker
Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives. We're excited for you to join us.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to our table.
Connection Through Writing
00:00:28
Speaker
Hi, Rachel. Susan. It is so good to see your face and to finally meet you. i feel like I love you so well through your writing over the years at Red Tent Living.
00:00:38
Speaker
I feel the same way, like so many years of knowing you and then getting to see you face to face. This is this is a joy. it is a joy.
Embracing New Beginnings
00:00:46
Speaker
And I'm curious is how you felt as you thought about this topic that we're going to talk about today, about closure and honoring endings in our life.
00:00:56
Speaker
Oh, well, you know, as a little girl, I used to always, my mom actually named me as that I hated to say goodbye. And so it's very much been a part of my story, even leaving my grandparents as a little girl, i would cry when I would say goodbye. And so it was it was wild to write a piece and realize that at this point in my life, I see that endings are also openings.
00:01:24
Speaker
um that they invite us into something new. So that felt like, you know, I think my initial thought was like endings, you know, because I've always been kind of named as like, she doesn't do well with endings. But was like, I think I am I've made some shifts in that.
00:01:38
Speaker
So how about you? how did that topic hit you?
Emotional Responses to Endings
00:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that you and I are kindred spirits in this because endings have always been really difficult for me as well. And I've always thought that I'm the person in the room that has a disproportionate response to the closure.
00:01:52
Speaker
I'm the one with the big tears. I'm the one my heart races and I have such a sense of dread. I'm the one that counts down the days of vacation from the day we arrive. are kindred spirits, Susan.
00:02:05
Speaker
Yes, that's me. So like you, I was glad to see I've experienced some growth in that from the ways that particularly my husband and I have. Yeah. Very mindful about the ways that we have engaged changing seasons in our life. yeah It's sweet to think, though, that we may be kindred spirits in deep drinking deeply of the present, you know, of of taking it in to the point that it's painful when it ends. So, yeah. Yeah.
00:02:34
Speaker
Well, I'm happy to to jump in that works. Yeah, I would love to hear the story
Motherhood and Transition
00:02:40
Speaker
that you've brought. Yeah. Okay. Last summer, I went to the theater with friends to watch Inside Out 2.
00:02:47
Speaker
Riley, who was 11 in the first film, is now 13. In one scene, Friendship Island moves forward while Family Island shifts back. I felt a lump in my throat.
00:02:58
Speaker
I remember that transition in my own life, when playing Clue with my dad and brother gave way to strolling through the Limited and getting Dippin' Dots with girlfriends at the mall. Now my oldest Hannah is turning 13 next week.
00:03:12
Speaker
I feel this transition deep in my bones. It's not just another birthday. As she keeps telling me, Mom, it's the end of my childhood. It seems like just yesterday she was nestled against me, unwilling to be held by any anyone else.
00:03:28
Speaker
She arrived on her own time. She was breech and over a week late, her head stubbornly near my heart. We joked that she didn't want to leave the sound of my heartbeat.
00:03:39
Speaker
And once she did, she still held on as if she knew how long we had waited for her. We named her Hannah, meaning grace, a reminder of God's mercy after many years of infertility.
00:03:52
Speaker
And now she's taller than me, a strong, confident volleyball player who loves beauty and organization. The little girl who once clung to my legs at birthday parties now laughs at my messy bathroom drawer.
00:04:05
Speaker
Last year, she gently asked me if I'd be willing to not chaperone her school trip to Washington, D.C. so she could try it on her own. My place in her life isn't disappearing, but it's changing.
00:04:17
Speaker
I felt that shift at a recent volleyball tournament. She called to say she loaned her compression sleeve to a teammate and it got lost. With hesitation, I left the gym after 13 hours of cheering, found a CVS, and bought her another one.
00:04:33
Speaker
Later, my husband pointed something out. I see you run yourself ragged for her sometimes, and when she doesn't respond the way you expect, it creates distance and resentment. As a child, I learned to anticipate and meet others' needs as a way to stay close and feel secure in relationships.
00:04:52
Speaker
My anxious attachment taught me to constantly read people in order to earn connection. However, this strategy sometimes causes me to miss a tune to her actual needs. A few days later, she faced a disappointment.
00:05:05
Speaker
She didn't make her school's beach volleyball team. My instinct was to comfort, strategize, and to go to bat for her. But before I could, she grieved, then turned to my husband and said, will you take me to the beach courts to practice?
00:05:21
Speaker
No shame, no bargaining, just quiet determination to improve. And that's when I understood i don't have to hustle for her to to need me. She wants me in her life and our relationship is far more expansive than meeting needs.
00:05:36
Speaker
My role now isn't to rush in and bear her disappointments. It is to be steady and unwavering. to do my own work and be the home she knows is always there. So as she turns 13, I honor not just her transition, but my transition.
00:05:53
Speaker
I honor the years of holding her close, and I honor the letting go. The privilege of watching her strength and resilience emerge as a young woman who is different than me.
00:06:05
Speaker
I hold the both the grief and the gratitude of motherhood. knowing that even as islands shift, the foundation of love remains unshaken.
00:06:16
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. Where you are in your journey with Hannah. Yeah. Yeah.
Evolving Attachment
00:06:24
Speaker
How do you feel after reading that? Yeah.
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, I felt a bit choked up. Thinking about this baby who her central safety was me and what a privilege that was. of Just remember walking through the grocery store with her and sometimes when she would see an unfamiliar face, she would start to cry and kind of bury her head in my chest. And just realizing what a rare jewel that is and then also holding that intention.
00:06:55
Speaker
with the joy of separateness and watching her be this distinct woman is very different than me. I mean, that's part of her opening my bathroom drawer. She says, Mom, how do you live like this? I mean, it's just like, she loves things to be in order and I do not live with a lot of order. And I'm like, wow, this is so wild how you came out of me. And yet it's fun to see the person that you are. so Yeah, feeling lots of different things.
00:07:25
Speaker
Thank you for naming those things. And as you name like her snuggled up to you or her turning to you in times of like fear, fearfulness, the lovely secure attachment that she has with you. It's so moving.
00:07:39
Speaker
It's so moving, Rachel. ah What a gift you've given her of that secure attachment. Thank you. beautiful. Thank you. It's wild to think about how, as a mother,
00:07:53
Speaker
you know, attachment, what you think of as attachment expands, right? Because you start to think about it only in terms of the safe place to find respite.
00:08:05
Speaker
Then you're like, oh, it's also the safety to say, would you like stay home this year and not come to DC with me? You know, like, right. Like to remind my my brain has expanded. Like, that's what we're going for here too. Right. What a good point that she feels safe enough with you that she can name her desire for you actually to stay home.
00:08:29
Speaker
And I can imagine that there were so many times that she was able to lean into you because she felt so safe with you and she just knew mom was there for her. loved that part of the story. Reflecting back on my story, and I'm not sure how this was in your own story with your mother, but thinking, wow, like, did I have the freedom, you know, to say something that might stir my mom's insecurity or may threaten her role um in in some way or make her feel like I didn't want her on the trip. And so it's been, it's it's good and it's painful all at the same time.
00:09:08
Speaker
Yeah, I listened to Hannah say to you a request that you don't come on the field trip. And I don't even have an imagination for what that would have been like to be so safe and invited by my mom to name what my needs are. So think it's something really rare that you have created with Hannah. And I can imagine it's going to be so interesting to see how it play out as she continues to expand into her teen years and then beyond. Yes, for sure.
00:09:38
Speaker
There's a line in the sentence where you have the phrase and now. It just felt felt like such a turning point to me when you said that. You name that she declared her 13th birthday is the end of her childhood.
00:09:52
Speaker
She has been telling me that. Yeah. well So she's telling you, hey, this is here. Yes. um How did that feel when she named that? Yes. I mean, i was like, are you sure?
00:10:04
Speaker
Like, do we have a technical definition of this? Is 13 really the end of childhood? You know, isn't it 18? But I think um think there's something that she wants to mark and she wants me to join her there in some way. I mean, she's like, well, what is my present going to be for the end of childhood? like...
00:10:24
Speaker
I don't know. I've just been pondering this. I haven't figured that out. But um yeah, it was wild that not only is she kind of flagging that into ground, but at some level, she's asking me to meet her there and honor that with her.
00:10:40
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I'm declaring this is a significant moment in my life, mom. Yes. it significant for you too, mom? Yes. How are you going to celebrate me?
00:10:51
Speaker
Yes. Yes. I'm curious, how did you celebrate? How did you all mark this milestone? Yeah, you know, it's next week. So we haven't quite gotten there yet. But I've been thinking about what that would look like and really feeling the need almost in writing this piece to kind of honor it within myself as well. And you know, this moment where I kind of get caught at the volleyball tournament, you know, and I'm like, and I realized I was doing it.
00:11:24
Speaker
And then I did it. the minute And then I ran to CVS. I was like, probably should know what it's like to not have a compression sleeve tomorrow. But I felt so scared.
00:11:35
Speaker
you know, so scared of like, what if she doesn't call me? What if she finds me irrelevant? What if I'm not responsive? And, but I think for me personally, part of that marking, part of that honoring is honoring something that gets to shift in me, you know, that my secure attachment with her, my relationship with her doesn't have to be defined as a responsiveness to need.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:12:06
Speaker
You named in your story, I don't have to hustle for her to need me. And that's a season of unlearning for you and really unlearning some vows from your childhood. Yes, yes, yeah yeah I think it's easy for that to be a bit eclipsed in the younger years.
00:12:26
Speaker
um It feels like it's it's it's two stones rubbing together at 13. Yeah. So it's inviting me to something. It's inviting me to growth.
00:12:38
Speaker
So maybe honoring, considering how I'll honor what it's inviting me to. Yeah. I love your curiosity around that. And I love your awareness and that it's not just her transition, but it's your own as well.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Creating Rituals for Transitions
00:12:54
Speaker
What feeling rises in you when you think about this, what it could be creating space for or inviting you into? Such such a Good question, Susan.
00:13:05
Speaker
i think it it feels like it's it's a mixture, but there is a bit of grief because it's been such a long strategy.
00:13:17
Speaker
And in some ways, something that can be honored in early motherhood, you know, that it's it's seen as in some circles sacrificial and responsive. And, you know, some of the, some of the, there also is some freedom there for me.
00:13:32
Speaker
freedom and risk, risk to believe that this is more expansive because, you know, that, um, my mother had ah high need to be needed.
00:13:47
Speaker
um so a lot of our relationship was sort of defined around that. And so it, it, it kind of pushes the envelope a bit on me here. Like, what else could this be?
00:13:59
Speaker
You know, what could our relationship expand beyond that? I mean, I'm hearing an invitation for you to imagine, use that imagination and dream. Like, what could this look like?
00:14:11
Speaker
I know what it looked like for me and my mom, but what could it look like? Yeah. And I got a taste of it. You know, when she didn't get that spot on the beach volleyball team, I got a space of one, just kind of watching her and being...
00:14:28
Speaker
sort of in wonderment, like this is cool and I can learn from you. and But also, you know just like we ah something that felt it had some bits of a friendship, you know, like in the, you know, what I was feeling for her, but not taking over and i'm not having to kind of kill off what I was feeling on behalf of her. I mean, it just, it started to transition to something a little bit different.
00:14:56
Speaker
Um, which which felt kind of fun and new. I love the two words you used earlier, ah risk and freedom.
Letting Go as a Parent
00:15:06
Speaker
does feel risky because you're stepping into this relationship, unlearning old ways and learning some new ways. yeah And also the freedom to imagine what it could look like. And it has an element of play and joy to it.
00:15:22
Speaker
i Try it and you know, you receive her response. And look what could that look like? Like, I'm excited for this new chapter for you. and him I feel you so championing that.
00:15:37
Speaker
Susan, thank you. And I know you've gone before me. and A dozen years, i think, ahead of you on the parenting journey. And so just like, Nobody could have told me then. And my husband actually used to try to tell me, can you imagine that this next chapter will be as wonderful as the last chapter with the boys? And I used to rail against him. there's no way the next chapter will be as sweet as, you know, their childhood or then even their teen years. And then when they left for college, I remember being so provoked when he would say, can you imagine the next chapter is even better?
00:16:16
Speaker
And I think it's there in the imagination that we like, yeah hold of it has proven true in the past. So I'm going to prove true in this new chapter with. I have to say though, Susan, I do enjoy a little bit of your indignant.
00:16:34
Speaker
No, it will not be because you just talked about the little girl that didn't like goodbyes or the end of a vacation. and you have a little bit of this, like,
00:16:46
Speaker
No, like this is so deeply good. It's so good. And and but i mean something different. Yeah. When you're naming Hannah, like curled up against your skin, like can anything be as sweet as that little one curled up against you?
00:17:04
Speaker
man are you Imagine anything could be as good. And I literally remember, you know, having her on my chest and feeling like, whoa, like this is co-regulation. Like this is when I'm at rest too. You know, like my nervous system is so at rest.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yes. In this place it is, it's sweet. And then it shifts to something different and wonderful, right? I, again, I relate to a little bit of the indignant, like so good.
00:17:38
Speaker
You know, this is so good. And I just say, I like that part of you, Susan, even though i I appreciate your husband giving you an imagination for the next. Well, thankfully he likes that part of me too, because he has received it a lot over 31 years. so That's so good. It's like you're, you're fighting for something.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Well, I'm so hopeful for you and Hannah. Thank you. And just so eager to see how you celebrate. Thank you thirteenth birthday and this milestone in your family.
00:18:10
Speaker
Thank you. ah for her and for you my. Yeah. And I did want to say that it was so wild after I wrote the piece, you know, after you finish a piece.
00:18:20
Speaker
And then I was thinking about naming her Hannah how that when I named her Hannah, we we had gone through infertility. So we named her Hannah. And then I reflected like, right. And she gave Samuel back to the Lord, you know, like that both the the deep intimacy of getting to conceive Samuel and then turning him over. I was like, ah right. The fullness of her namesake.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, that is a beautiful awareness that you have. and Thanks for sharing that. Absolutely. Well, do you feel ready to engage in your story?
00:19:00
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, I am titled this one Training Wheels. I've always joked that God knew i would need plenty of preparation to launch my sons, so he began early. First, I learned to leave them for overnights with their grandparents, and they relished this time riding the lawnmower with their ba-ba.
00:19:17
Speaker
sleeping in the twin beds of my childhood, or staying up too late watching Disney movies with their grandmama. Then, in their elementary school years, I would drop them off at the homes of best friends for sleepovers.
00:19:29
Speaker
While I might have lain awake wondering how they were doing, they apparently were doing fine, for I never got a call requesting middle-of-the-night pickup. Next came a week away at summer camp, first for Seth, who went after fourth grade, and then for Reed, who begged to go after his third grade year.
00:19:47
Speaker
I summoned my courage on the day of camp drop-off, pasting a big smile on my face as I gave them goodbye hugs, and then I donned my largest sunglasses to hide my tears. Then my greatest challenge to date arrived when each of them in turn left for a two-week school trip to various countries in Europe after their eighth grade year.
00:20:07
Speaker
I knew they were in capable hands of the teachers guiding their trips. However, they weren't my hands, and I was left behind, learning to unclench my grip with each day they were away.
00:20:19
Speaker
Over these years, I was getting practice saying goodbye, bearing their absence, and adjusting to the shifting dynamics of our parent-child relationship. I was also watching them grow into capable, resourceful, independent young men.
00:20:34
Speaker
And as the boys were growing up, I was growing too. I was learning how to release, how to bless, and how to carry on. Finally, the big day arrived, for which I had been rehearsing.
00:20:48
Speaker
Cess move-in day at college. We packed two car cars for the move, and I eagerly called shotgun for Cess' car. I had a heightened awareness during this two-hour car drive that these moments of conversation with him were golden.
00:21:03
Speaker
We arrived on Friday to begin moving him into his dorm room and stayed overnight at a hotel near campus. Then on Saturday, as we began our second day of the move, we told Seth, We will follow your lead today.
00:21:18
Speaker
When you are ready for us to hit the road, just tell us and we'll go. He smiled at us and agreed. And as it goes with most college moves, ours included several trips to the local Walmart.
00:21:30
Speaker
As we were standing in the aisle looking for surge protectors mid-afternoon, we got a text from Seth that said, When you get back, I think I'm ready for you to go.
00:21:40
Speaker
We looked at each other with both tears and pride. We were so proud that Seth felt confident and ready to be on his own. We arrived back at his dorm and called him to meet us in the parking lot, and with the exchange of shopping bags and lingering hugs,
00:21:55
Speaker
We offered words of blessing and heartfelt goodbyes. Then we got into our car and cried nearly the whole way home.
Acknowledging Transitions
00:22:04
Speaker
Fast forward four years when Seth had just graduated from the same college. We packed up his dorm room as well as his childhood bedroom and loaded two different cars for a drive to Colorado where he was moving to begin graduate school.
00:22:19
Speaker
This time the whole family accompanied him on this cross country move. and after a few days getting him settled, it was again time to say goodbye. We walked Seth to the driveway of the Airbnb in which we were staying and began to give him parting hugs.
00:22:35
Speaker
To our surprise, he held on, and he began to speak his own words of gratitude and blessing to each one of us in turn. first to his dad, then me, and then to his brother.
00:22:46
Speaker
It was a holy moment, a full circle moment, as our son brought to our attention that this was a meaningful milestone in our family's story, a significant moment of closure, and he invited us to give it the honor that it deserved.
00:23:01
Speaker
As I returned to the Airbnb after he drove away, i marveled how God continues to show me how to engage and embrace change, including endings with courage and honor. And I suspect these lessons will continue throughout the remainder of my days.
00:23:15
Speaker
Wow. Thank you. How was it for you read that? Yeah, it was surprising.
00:23:28
Speaker
When I wrote it, there are still places that i have tears. Little stories. little having to contain some emotion the want to get through it um because it has been now Goodness.
00:23:44
Speaker
We dropped him at college in 2017, Rachel. So it's been day, but I still feel like I'm standing in the aisle of Target or Walmart reading that text and like what rose in me.
00:23:57
Speaker
So proud of him, but also no, I'm not ready to go. Knowing I have to honor he's ready, right? He's ready. deep breath, Susan.
00:24:13
Speaker
i What a way to honor that moment, that particular moment where, mean, it's 2017 where you can say like time stopped in that moment. What that moment required of you.
00:24:26
Speaker
You know, and but it felt like that's what we had been training. i have been training for. Right. The training wheels are your training wheels. I'm training wheels with every good one. Oh, that's amazing.
00:24:37
Speaker
Leaving him and a friend's house or cabin at summer camp or at an airport and having to take that deep breath and thinking, this is part of the work of mothering is like preparing him to leave me That is profound.
00:24:56
Speaker
And i think in the end, they were more prepared for it than I was. But my yeah, news and that is so beautiful. Even the phrase, the work of mothering. Wow.
00:25:11
Speaker
I was so moved in your story by this moment where you said you were eager to take shotgun, you know, with him when you were in Colorado.
00:25:23
Speaker
or actually that was a, um, let's see. When were you? Okay. Yeah. Yes. You were in, this is in college. And then, so the eagerness of sitting shotgun and you said these moments were golden, like the gratitude.
00:25:38
Speaker
And then equally these words, I mean, I just was like, these are brilliant words. We will follow your lead today when you're ready for us to hit the road. Just tell us. I mean, I could have wept over those words, Susan.
00:25:52
Speaker
And then he calls and he says, when you get back, I'm ready to go
00:25:59
Speaker
Just that you were ah so equally eager and joyous and grateful as you were to honor his
Breaking Patterns of Difficult Endings
00:26:09
Speaker
goodbye. i mean, to honor when he was ready. I just, I was so struck by the contrast of those scenes, you know, sitting shotgun with him and then, okay, tell us when.
00:26:19
Speaker
I could stay in that car and ride shotgun with him and my other son. oh Actually, I just did in June. my young right yeah My younger son and I drove shot ah road shotgun as i read my younger son and I drove across country to Seth's wedding in Colorado. So today's just the two of us.
00:26:42
Speaker
Oh, I can tell you I enjoyed it immensely more than Reed enjoyed it. I wish he was on this call because he is hilarious when he recounts what that was like. But for me, every minute was golden. Even every time he looked at me and rolled his eyes or told me to quit interrupting her.
00:26:57
Speaker
But I savored those times. And I think like as they grow up, you realize like they're fewer and farther between. It's just that savoring because I don't think as a mom, you ever stop night with your kid, right? You just, I don't, I never stopped desiring that.
00:27:15
Speaker
Oh, Susan, you're like, cha i mean, almost this childlike joy over knowing how good this is. It's so inspiring to me. And then yet equally, like in that moment, surrendering, you know, and saying, I honor this and this is good is so potent.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think because i never experienced good intentional endings. And so as we named earlier, endings were so, so hard for me. So it was a real desire of mine for this to be a part of the boys formation that they would not be scared of endings.
00:27:57
Speaker
Oh, so good. And I did not know what I was doing, but I was being tutored along the way by a really good therapist and end by friends who could hold me in like really big emotions with every ending and just slowly over time, like the dysregulation in me was coming into focus of like, what would it take for this ending to not eviscerate you, right?
00:28:22
Speaker
Wow. And and i'm so like naming the ending, like it's coming, honoring the ending, asking like, is there anything else you need from me before we part? Oh, um these are things that I needed. And so if I need it, then I'm sure probably the Boys needed it too. So, I mean, I think this is part of the generational work that Tim and I did with our family is we did not experience good endings. And so how can we face changing seasons in our family's life and these transitions that you and I've been talking about?
00:28:56
Speaker
I mean, it's good and sweet and can be something that we look back on without sorrow. I mean, it is bittersweet. but you did so well with it. You have this moment where he's leading you through an ending. He is, you said the full circle moment, he's blessing you and giving you the words. And I'm like, you've trained, you've taught him so well, you know, like this is what you've done to him so many times that he turns around
00:29:27
Speaker
to you and your husband and your son and gives that back. I'm like, I mean, I just that moment I was like, whoa, this is it. Yeah, I had to include that paragraph, Rachel, for just what you're naming because it caught us off guard.
00:29:42
Speaker
We honestly were not aware of like the weightiness of that moment in the driveway. And the way that he was, he was aware, i will never live at home again. And so I'm going to take this moment to like tell each of you what it has been like.
00:29:59
Speaker
And he said those words, I will never live at home again. I don't remember exactly. that it something you that icon But i that was that when we walked in the house, Tim and I both looked at each other and named like, this is what he was doing. He's telling us that chapter's over.
00:30:18
Speaker
Oh, he said. to each one of us. And he had a special word for each one of us of what it has meant for him to, what had it had meant for him to like grow up in the home with us and what our impact on him had been. And honestly, I can't remember what he spoke over me, Rachel, because it was so good. Susan.
00:30:40
Speaker
So I hope my body just still holds it. Oh, I know my body still holds it. I wish I could remember the singular words of it. But I remember like the it just felt so lavish washing over me for that moment to be honored.
00:30:54
Speaker
But then as soon as it was over, we're standing in the driveway going, this is more than we thought it was. And so now let's hold what just happened and the milestone that he's just made us aware of.
00:31:06
Speaker
so But so glad, like you said, taught us in that moment. Like he brought us He rises up and you see what's inside of him.
00:31:18
Speaker
and to bless you. i mean, it is so, i mean, it's, it's so profound. I could see where your body would be a little like jarred and silenced and what in wonderment and all of the things.
00:31:35
Speaker
yeah
00:31:38
Speaker
And, it you know, it may have been one of the first times in our family's life that Tim and I looked at each other and realized that the different ways that we had been engaging family, yes engaging our sons in particular, actually was bearing fruit and had created what I pray will be lasting change in our family generations.
00:32:03
Speaker
Yes.
The Bittersweet Nature of Goodbyes
00:32:05
Speaker
Yes. I mean, for you to have started this conversation, Susan, telling me i didn't like endings. I didn't want endings. And to see that you in probably so many moments of your life, you know, Seth watched you do this well and watched you honor and watched you give him the words and watched you give other people the words and for him to stop and mark that, it's so, so beautiful. It's like stunning.
00:32:36
Speaker
Thank you for letting me bear witness to that. more Thank you. i mean, I think a word that came up in your story and also was in this story is this idea of honoring, honoring the changes and the transitions and then endings and the new beginnings and just yeah like bringing honor.
00:32:56
Speaker
Yeah. These moments feel so important. Yes. Yeah. And just, yeah, like i I, am so moved to just see um the process of the training wheels coming off and what you were preparing for. And then it's you the story, you know, it's a story about Seth, but it's you.
00:33:18
Speaker
yeah And it's interesting because I think like you, i have come to realize like, this is as much a part of life ah as anything.
00:33:30
Speaker
is the goodbyes. And i have a we have a lot of goodbyes with our boys because neither one lives near us. Yes. There's a lot of airport goodbyes or standing in the driveway waving till their car's out of sight goodbyes.
00:33:44
Speaker
And like recognizing none of those moments are small things. Yeah. For neither them nor their mom. Yes. So, and they always are bittersweet.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yes. But one of the things we try to practice is having already a date on the calendar for the next time we'll see you. I like the ending a new beginning of yeah another adventure, another shared conversation.
00:34:12
Speaker
That's so good. I need that to not spiral into the old ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the goodbye. I'm sitting here going, we weren't made for goodbyes, you know, because we were made for the new heavens and new earth. And yet, there's also this place of like, you know, I imagine in the new heavens and earth, there will be transitions, you know, and change and grow.
00:34:38
Speaker
And so it's it's just such a wild thing that both you and I when given the topic about closures and our personal narrative, chose stories of mothering because something about their life and the developmental changes, you know, it's, you get to see it. It keeps inviting. It keeps asking for something different.
00:35:02
Speaker
So yeah, just really powerful and just kind of fun to be in this with you. Thank you. Likewise. Yeah. I'm curious, Rachel, as we start to wrap up our conversation, what are you going to take with you from our conversation? and Yeah, things um I I'm inspired to hear of this moment that Seth had with you and your husband and your other son in the driveway and just continue like just Jesus. Thank you for the privilege of watching
00:35:39
Speaker
strength rise in our kids and in in ways that you use the word bearing fruit. It's like, oh, we don't know what's bearing fruit. And it expands me beyond this idea of, you know, I've been struggling with this idea of like needs and how relationship was was based a lot. My connection was based a lot on meeting needs and that you've painted a picture. You have given me imagination for something that far more, it's far wider, it's far more expansive than meeting needs. that um
00:36:10
Speaker
And so thank you for that. And i also want to continue to develop rituals in our family so that one day, you know, I will get to participate in a ritual that Hannah is setting the stage for because she's watched me do it and honor it.
00:36:25
Speaker
And that maybe goodbyes that may she grieve well and goodbyes, but may they not be as scary as they have been for me. So how about you?
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, I am ah very intrigued by this idea of secure attachment and what it looks like in our family relationships. Yes. Grow and change and move move away. And um what does that look like? Because it's new for me.
00:36:52
Speaker
Yeah. Secure attachment is a new experience for me over the course of having these kids and raising these kids. kids yeah I was experiencing secure attachment for the first time as well.
00:37:06
Speaker
Yes, that's so, wow, that's powerful. Yeah. So, and I can trace back what did it look like with them in their elementary years and in their teenage years and now evoking a curiosity. Okay. They're both in their twenties.
00:37:20
Speaker
What does it look like with a child who lives hundreds of miles away? yes It's independent and. Mm-hmm. though. That's something I want to pay attention to. It's funny, the timing of this conversation is we fly tomorrow to actually spend some time with Seth. So I'm going to be so present of mind I'm with him. Yes.
00:37:42
Speaker
Be just observing. Yeah, that's good. i with my mind And then I think that this idea of endings and beginnings and new chapters, yes, applies to our families and our mothering and our children, but also as women, as we are aging.
00:37:57
Speaker
And I'm an in a new chapter as an empty nester yeah my mid fifties. And so just like, I loved you not only honoring Hannah's transition, but your own. And so what does it look like to honor ah transition where I find myself today? Yes. I have a curiosity and an imagination around. oh I love that season.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to that. Yeah. Well, it's been a joy. My goodness, so lovely to talk to you. You're treasure.
00:38:31
Speaker
The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Erin Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson, and all our guests are part of the Red Tent Living community.
00:38:45
Speaker
You can find us all at redtentliving.com, as well as on Facebook and Instagram. If you love the stories shared here, we would be thrilled if you left us a review.
00:38:57
Speaker
Until next week, love to you, dear ones.