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Walking with Grief: the Life-giving Nature of Loss with Becky Allender and Sandhya Oaks
78 Plays1 month ago
"Sorrow is the key to life," says Becky Allender. In this episode, Becky and Sandhya Oaks reflect on the nature of sorrow, the role it has in our lives, and the beauty we find because we are willing to engage the darker and more painful elements of our lives. Join Becky and Sandhya in this wide ranging conversation on living more fully thanks to the bravery of grief.
For more stories from brave, ordinary women, join us at Red Tent Living.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Red Tent Living Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary.
00:00:12
Speaker
Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives.
Becky's Excitement and Honor
00:00:22
Speaker
We're excited for you to join us.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to our table. Sandhya, hi, it's Becky Allender. I'm so glad to be doing this with you. So good to be with you, Becky.
Sacred Spaces and Sharing Stories
00:00:34
Speaker
Very honored, delighted, and curious as well for our time.
00:00:40
Speaker
Yes. It was good. How are you feeling this evening? you know, as we step in, I feel... Like this is like sacred space.
00:00:51
Speaker
That's what it feels like immediately when I think about both of us sharing and not knowing what each one person will share exactly. But I feel the sacredness and simultaneously feel the whirlwind of having just left Seattle and hopping on a plane back to home here.
00:01:09
Speaker
That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I certainly feel the sacredness of this too. Yeah. It'll be an honor to hold space for one another. And if it feels well, I can go first.
00:01:22
Speaker
That would be great. Lovely. life
Navigating Loss and Grief
00:01:24
Speaker
Wonderful. So I'm bringing a piece that I actually wrote very recently, and it's about navigating loss and grief. And that is the topic of this episode.
00:01:35
Speaker
um And has to do with the most recent holiday season. So I'll just read and then see where we go.
00:01:46
Speaker
What does one do with an ache that continues to gnaw at your heart every year? I don't know. Truly. i wish I had an answer of how to hold and what to do with the ache of not having a family.
00:02:04
Speaker
This particular holiday season was one of the hardest seasons I have yet to walk through. i don't particularly know why, but it was very painful.
00:02:15
Speaker
When the calendar turns from October to November, I begin to brace myself. I look ahead, hold my breath, and wait for the calendar to turn to January 2nd.
00:02:28
Speaker
This date is a representation that you made it through. Exhale. Kind of. I know by this time my heart won't need to hold the wonderings of where I will go for the holidays.
00:02:44
Speaker
And yet, and yet, it still will hold a sense of I don't have a family. The ache of not having a family was carried in my face, my bones, and my heart in this season.
00:02:57
Speaker
I cried, wept, and I felt the futility of trying to just lean into good things, as I tend to do as a means of coping. I remember feeling a sense in my soul for a couple days that the same bitterness, coldness outside matched a barren and cold disconnected feeling inside.
00:03:20
Speaker
I didn't know what to do and I felt a sense of resignment of trying to do anything. But I kept moving my good body, staying connected to light and beauty, and approached each day with a thread of asking for extra grace for the day.
00:03:37
Speaker
Christmas lights hung by my windows and candles became my confidants. They were my companions and they helped ground me in a sense that light is coming and all will be well.
Wisdom from 'Wild Sages'
00:03:51
Speaker
I called my friend and mentor, who I call my wild sages, And they helped me name some really heavy and honest laments. Their responses were perfect, if there actually can be a perfect response.
00:04:07
Speaker
One of them said, just let it be what it is. Another one said, i will check in on you daily. None of these were said with a sense of passiveness or a sense of trying to make it be better or go away, but with deep knowingness and deep care.
00:04:25
Speaker
These women have both experienced their own grief journeys, and so there was a sacred trust that I could borrow from them. And so I let the suffering come and be.
Processing Grief and Finding Resilience
00:04:38
Speaker
i invited a small group of friends who lived nearby to hold space and not rush to a happy ending when we were sitting across from another because of potential false presumptions of them wanting to move on from my grief.
00:04:52
Speaker
I didn't indulge in the sadness that's not like me, but let my soul linger there. I let the tears come and flow. i let the ache just be there.
00:05:06
Speaker
I didn't hide my face from others when I would share my grief and my tears. I made it through. And to be more honest, I feel more grounded and intact than I ever have felt before.
Struggle, Faith, and Hope
00:05:22
Speaker
Something inside of me has been profoundly forged, and I don't want to walk past it too quickly. Maybe it's a steadfastness or resilience or maybe just a holy tenderness.
00:05:36
Speaker
I don't need the right words. and My grief is not very far away and it still matters today even though I don't feel that same sense.
00:05:47
Speaker
And although the holidays sit in the rear view mirror and I'm not wanting to distant myself from the season of grief recently, i am indeed already asking God to bring my future mate,
00:06:01
Speaker
before this next holiday season and write my narrative forward. May it be so. May it be so. Wow. Wow. That ending, I wasn't expecting.
00:06:14
Speaker
How brave. How are you feeling? How's your body? i Whenever I name that solidness, it feels solid right here in my chest.
00:06:25
Speaker
And so i I feel the solidness. I also felt a little bit of the tenderness nearby. Maybe it's tiredness, but I actually do think it's um tenderness because I'm not very far We're at the end of January here.
00:06:40
Speaker
I'm not very far away from it. And yet I'm in a different spot. And i'm I'm noticing the tenderness. Well, the tenderness is written all over your voice in every sentence.
00:06:53
Speaker
how How difficult is that? There isn't even words.
Empathy and Personal Growth
00:06:59
Speaker
i I've heard the word wordless darkness. um And there isn't even words for the difficultness.
00:07:09
Speaker
And I carry, I do carry it in my tone. i can hear it even in myself here. um i feel still so near, even though I'm in a way different spot than I was then.
00:07:20
Speaker
And I actually think that's really sweet and beautiful. ah do too. Yeah. Because, because it's so near makes it so real for me as I listen to you that you are valiant and not pushing uncomfortableness or sadness away. Even just let a little exhale out because that hasn't always been true of me.
00:07:50
Speaker
It has not been true for the longest time. And there's been, you know, ongoing growth and whatever you want to call it. but I've just noticed something different this this round, this time around.
00:08:07
Speaker
Well, I'm aware of some of your words that you began with, the disconnected, bitterness, resignment, and then, but there's so much light in the candles.
00:08:20
Speaker
So I want to, like, when you went to the candles, what was going
Hope and Faith Amidst Loss
00:08:24
Speaker
on? Because I had something in me that I want to see what was happening in you. Yeah, it's it's funny. I have candles going all over right now by me. i love candles. um and one day, one of the darkest days of December, which goes just right with Advent, if I'm honest,
00:08:44
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i i I don't, it wasn't an audible voice, but it was an idea that popped into my head. And it was, Sandhya, like, what if you light some more candles as a reminder?
00:08:58
Speaker
And it was like kind of reminder, remember. And and i I didn't know what to do with it. I was like, well, the days are shorter, so it might be good to have some extra light.
00:09:09
Speaker
But there was something about the glow and the light and the anticipation Of having that nearby felt so comforting. It's warm. and um there's still life there.
00:09:23
Speaker
I have not said these words actually before. um I'm just thinking through it now. There's still life in light, even when it feels so much death around me. To me, as you just said, which, cause I didn't know that exactly when you said the candles, I wasn't sure like, is this good enough?
00:09:44
Speaker
But what you said is so extravagant. You got more candles. You, you made, you made that those are expensive. You are extravagant with your ability to choose light.
00:09:56
Speaker
And I love that you've got your wild sages. Me too. Me too. And I don't know you that well, but I can't imagine anyone that can gather more wild sages than you. Because I've seen bits of how you are finding so much about your birth family, where you came from.
00:10:21
Speaker
Like, it is palpable. It just, like, it's Ah, your heart reaches out to me whenever I hear or see written on social media where you are what you're doing.
00:10:35
Speaker
It's so courageous. And first of all, I hate that you have to do it. It makes me mad that that is not more clear, that it hasn't been more understood, that your adoptive family didn't figure all this out for you and help you.
00:10:53
Speaker
It makes me so angry. Me too. I think, and I can see it in your face and that I hear it in your voice. And that's, I think what I need is people to say, this has not been right for you.
00:11:08
Speaker
Like it has not been right that you have lost a birth family. It has not been right that you were disowned, to say the least, ah from my adoptive family and to be left without a family for 17 years.
00:11:28
Speaker
Damn it to hell. I didn't know that. Yeah, i I believe you. There is nothing. And we don't compare grief to grief. I know this. And for my body, my heart, to say that there is nothing.
00:11:44
Speaker
Like losing one family, one mom, one dad, grandparents, all of those siblings and so on.
Nature of Melancholy and Resilience
00:11:50
Speaker
But then there's a whole nother bottom darkness hole to lose a whole nother one on a way different account and to be left as a re-orphaned.
00:12:02
Speaker
No, there's nothing that could, it's beyond, it's beyond what I could ever begin to feel. Yeah. And want to be quick to say, because this is what's coming up, is, well, I know that orphans are very, very dear to God's heart.
00:12:20
Speaker
And that picks me up a little bit. And I'm not trying to trying to spin it up. But there is something that says that also keeps me tethered, knowing that that widows, strangers, and orphans are so dear to God's heart. And I'm in one of those categories.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yes. And therefore, your extravagant, unusual, deep, ferocious love for yourself and for Jesus is that groundedness that that you you hold and beget. Like, I have always sensed the gravity of your groundedness.
00:13:01
Speaker
And we've had few times in person, but what what heartache to get to that glory. Those are the most, I'm just holding those words, real words, real.
00:13:13
Speaker
Well, it's incomprehensible for me to begin to understand, but thank you that you're receiving this. And it's It's a story that will never get old being told, ever. And and I will be praying for you this coming December, Advent, and for a mate. you're The hard victories that you are winning, just it's beyond words for how costly you've had to fight.
00:13:46
Speaker
Thank thank you. Do you know anyone that has had a double family lost? And that is part of what makes it the unbearing, the unbearable. it's I always say I joined the dead parent club but way too young, way too soon. And when friends were losing maybe great-great-grandparents and so on, I had already lost everyone. And um i I wonder, sometimes I'm like, God, could you not have spared one?
00:14:23
Speaker
Just one? didn't. And he didn't. And so this to say, i think, yeah, I have looked forward to marriage since I was a little girl. It's been in there. It's been in my heart forever. And there is a part of me that would really hope that God would write that into my narrative in the soon so that I can enjoy what it means to be in a family and that he and i
00:14:53
Speaker
could have our own family and I could be a mom and have kids and not saying that every holiday from there on out is easy or perfect, but there'd be a sense of what I was meant for, I would get to finally receive.
00:15:10
Speaker
You are so brave and bold to speak that forthrightly. To me, I would think if I were you, I would be too um I just see your boldness because I would have been, I have been in the past too afraid to speak what I desire. And because they people don't handle your heart right so often.
00:15:36
Speaker
Right, right. So that's even what I want to bless your loveliness with your forthrightness, knowing what you desire and speaking it out is great.
00:15:49
Speaker
pro profoundly unusual, at least how I've lived life and seen it. And I love that about you. Thank you. How is your heart right now?
00:16:02
Speaker
It feels fierce and settled at the same time. Sounds about right for
00:16:09
Speaker
Yet your words, all will be well. That's right. Do you know how hopeful of a person you are? It doesn't make sense, but yes, i think i do. have a war with hope.
00:16:23
Speaker
And... It doesn't make sense that I even have a thread in the tapestry of hope. Oh my gosh. Listen to this. It's just so glorious.
00:16:34
Speaker
It's like, i I want to write that in skywriting because it's glorious.
Tragedy in Music and Empathy
00:16:40
Speaker
Sandhya, it takes my breath away. Your glory, your hope, and your... Gosh darn, I'm going to say it.
00:16:51
Speaker
That's right. out F you if you don't like it. Yes. I mean, you've got gusto, girl. Yes. And ah that has that has been a companion.
00:17:05
Speaker
A companion of gusto. I love that. Me too. Me too. Yay. Thank you so much.
00:17:17
Speaker
Thank you for holding my story with honor and for engaging and speaking with kindness and fierceness as well. Thank you. I was so happy when I heard that we would be together.
00:17:30
Speaker
Same, same. So good. Does this feel well? well to shift and I can hold your story? i i think I think so, since we're on our own here with the time.
00:17:45
Speaker
yeah Mine was not is not nearly as costly to have written, but I'm not going to you know back away from what I felt to write.
00:17:57
Speaker
hanna the spanish poet federica garcia lorca collected many of his country's lullabies and concluded that spain uses its saddest melodies and most melancholy texts to tinge her children's first slumber I am a grandmother of six grandchildren, and I have sung the same series of hymns and lullabies in the same order to all six grandbabies when putting them to bed at night or midday naps.
00:18:33
Speaker
Only one of these babies would cry hearing the minor key tones of one of the songs. Each time I sang the minor key chorus,
00:18:46
Speaker
Tears would run down Cole's face as I patted his back while kneeling next to his crib, singing quietly, and praying that this tired sweet baby would fall asleep.
00:18:59
Speaker
A musicologist in 1805 described the key of the C minor as a declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love.
00:19:11
Speaker
In contrast, the key of C major is completely pure. Its character is innocence, simplicity, naivety, children's talk.
Emotional Connection Through Melancholy Art
00:19:23
Speaker
This is from Bittersweet by Susan Cain, page 34. thirty four Cain documents many reasons why some of us love tragic drama. My all-time favorite movie is Fiddler on the Roof.
00:19:37
Speaker
Also, why some people like rainy days. i have come to make peace with the gloomy and rainy days of the Pacific Northwest. And some people love tear-jerker movies.
00:19:50
Speaker
Well, I said it all with Fiddler on the Roof. Susan Cain continues with this thought by saying philosophers call this the paradox of tragedy.
00:20:02
Speaker
And they've puzzled over it for centuries. Now, neuroscientists and psychologists are now considering the question too. For instance, a moonlit sonata can be therapeutic for people experiencing loss or depression.
00:20:20
Speaker
It can help us to accept negative emotions rather than ignoring or repressing them. Basically, it can show us that we're not alone in our sorrows.
00:20:32
Speaker
Researchers at the University of Kaivassla, Finland, found that all the variables influencing a person is likely to be moved by sad music.
00:20:44
Speaker
The strongest is empathy. Cutting to the chase, these empathetic people are the individuals who look at the world through other people's eyes. a group of psychologists reviewed the entire research literature on sad music and posited that yearning melodies help our bodies to achieve homeostasis, a state in which our emotions and physiologies achieve homeostasis.
00:21:13
Speaker
meaning literally a state in which our emotions and physiologies function with optimal range. Studies even show that babies in intensive care units who listen to often mournful lullabies have stronger breathing, better feeding patterns, and deeper heart rates than infants hearing other kinds of music.
00:21:40
Speaker
This also is from the book Bittersweet, page 36. Susan Cain concludes that what many humans like are sad and beautiful things.
00:21:50
Speaker
The bitter together with the sweet. We are like, we like art forms that express our longing for union and for a more perfect world. It was pathos that set Homer's odyssey in motion with the shipwrope Odysseus longing for home.
00:22:09
Speaker
C.S. Lewis called it the inconsolable longing, that unnameable something for the smell of bonfire or the sound of wild ducks flying overhead.
00:22:22
Speaker
And the pianist and singer Nina Simone was called the high priestess of soul because her music was full of longing for justice and love. Turning this gaze toward me,
00:22:35
Speaker
Why is it that my father's depressions would literally cause me to not be able to speak, but only stand with tears running down my cheeks when friends of my family would inquire
Family History and Emotional Impact
00:22:49
Speaker
at church, How's your dad doing?
00:22:53
Speaker
It was impossible to do anything but look at them, and to my horror, let tears run out of my eyes. What makes a person melancholy?
00:23:05
Speaker
or in an extreme case, depressed. I have always known that I was thin-skinned, meaning I feel things deeper than other people.
00:23:16
Speaker
It turns out that there's a term meant for this metaphorically, but it turns out it's quite literally. High reactor reactive introverts sweat more and low-level extroverts sweat less.
00:23:32
Speaker
Our bodies literally reveal who we are in many ways, not just in sweating. Even though my father would boast, we raised them strong, we raised them tough, I always knew that I had a sensitive nature.
00:23:50
Speaker
Each of my parents lost a parent when they were young teenagers during the Great Depression. I grew up listening to their stories of loss while eating dinner.
00:24:01
Speaker
I grew up feeling sad that they were alone and hungry, even when they were young. i guess they were working out their trauma, but I felt guilty having food to eat and having two parents.
00:24:15
Speaker
What could I ever complain about? There is a concept called functional moderate guilt. A researcher writes that moderate guilt may promote future altruism, personal responsibility, adaptive behavior in school, and harmonious, competent, pro-social relationships with parents, teenagers, and friends.
00:24:41
Speaker
Functional moderate guilt turns out to be an important enough study regarding empathy. A 2010 University of Michigan study showed that college students today, this was in 2013, are 40% less empathetic than they were 30 years ago.
00:25:01
Speaker
With much of the drop having occurred since 2000, the studies researchers speculate that the decline in empathy is related to the prevalence of social media,
00:25:15
Speaker
Reality TV and Hyper Competitiveness. This came from Susan Cain's book, Quiet, on page 141. I obviously obviously was not a college student during those years.
00:25:29
Speaker
In the 1970s, when I was in college, I was grieving the Vietnam War. Tragically, I knew little how to grieve how people of color were maligned by our government and by our laws, even though we had race riots on the Ohio State University campus and in my dorm.
00:25:50
Speaker
I did not grieve their plight. I have spent the last 15 years educating myself in white privilege at the Allender Center, and it's enabled me to grieve the blindness and my whiteness.
Faith, Sorrow, and Comfort
00:26:07
Speaker
I will continue to do my work in exposing white privilege to my family and and community, most likely until I die. As believers in Jesus Christ, borrowing my husband's words, we are to hold being broken and beautiful wholeheartedly.
00:26:26
Speaker
We can laugh at the sting of death because of the resurrection, and we can weep for the injustices of this world because of the horror of our Savior's death on Saturday when he was in hell.
00:26:40
Speaker
We are meant to enter the joy of Jesus' resurrection on Sunday, which is where we are to live out the already and not yet. I too am able, like Cole, to hear the song of the minor key,
00:26:56
Speaker
that embodies our suffering and lets tears flow. I can weep knowing that each tear and heartache is preparing my heart for the day that every tear will be wiped away. you Thank you for your voice.
Generational Trauma and Healing
00:27:15
Speaker
for giving us a glimpse into being a grandmother, for a look into your childhood table and your dad. And your words are so rich.
00:27:26
Speaker
There's such depth and richness. And I hear so much both and riddled throughout your words. What is it like to read that in this moment?
00:27:38
Speaker
Well, isn't it something... that both my parents lost one parent, which affected them for the rest of their lives.
00:27:51
Speaker
Just one parent. As I'm holding, my gaze is on my story, but I just have to say that's just one parent, and it's broken my heart for them my whole life.
00:28:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. We, as Dan, your husband would say, we're never meant to for loss, never once. And there's such, even like the paradox of you start by sharing about a lullaby with your grands, little, the little ones. And then you talk about Vietnam War, which is ages and yet not ages ago. and yeah, I think I'm drawn to the to the two different parts on on the line.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, he was the only little baby that would cry when I would sing in the minor key. And then finding out in the book, Bittersweet, there's it's all about like 40% of our population has that melancholy to their children.
00:28:57
Speaker
personhood whether it be also introversion but the melancholy and I love Judy Collins and that minor key and I love Simon and Garfunkel and those songs of the heart it's like it it feeds me But yet sometimes i know I tip over to that, not being able to talk and just cry. And it's so awkward for all those around me.
00:29:28
Speaker
You know, I hear that you saying, i love the external and what it does internal. And my question was, and how do you feel toward the dropping of tears so quickly?
00:29:41
Speaker
And then the not having words for yourself. I look back. Because I did that often three different times in my lifetime. My dad was in a deep depression.
00:29:54
Speaker
And so those people at church would know. And in that, like, I was the out-of-towner returning. And each time thinking, I might never see these people again, but I couldn't speak. And it was awkward, you know, when you can't talk and people don't know what to do. And the his heartache, it was like he was 100 years old and no one could reach him.
00:30:22
Speaker
the ah The word of ambiguous loss um is loud of What happens when someone you love is physically present, but emotionally or mentally distant?
00:30:38
Speaker
And what I wanted, what that brings me to say, like, I didn't realize it, but my mother was in an orphanage. She never told us that. And then four months ago, her brother died. And we found out that when she was 14 or 13, not only did her dad die, and then she and her two brothers were put in an orphanage, she cried herself out.
00:31:05
Speaker
She was a tightly wound woman her whole life. But the two brothers were in for seven years. No one knew it was seven years. She lost everything. And she was so tightly wound and never had care for her story. Never. Like, it's so odd that this is what we do at the Allender Center.
00:31:26
Speaker
tend to stories of grief. So I don't know. It's kind of a turn I took. I don't know. But I do feel less shame for my tears that sometimes I don't know when they're going to come.
00:31:38
Speaker
And I guess I don't need to worry about the other person. Yeah. And that sounds so simplistic. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering though too how How have you grown softer for yourself and your tears and it shifted from what they might think or that awkwardness to these are mine?
00:32:03
Speaker
Oh, it's by the witness of my narrative-focused trauma care level one group. Even though, you know, I've been around all these counseling student students for 45 years and Allender Center 15 years maybe, I needed my group.
00:32:22
Speaker
that's when I was able to grieve. And then I've learned to keep grieving, you know, but it was, it's a holy place. It continues to be holy, you know, the work that we have the privilege of doing of other people's stories.
00:32:41
Speaker
and I hear the honor and the kindness that you've received and now can offer yourself as well for your tears. And I'm drawn to wonder if we can come back into the beginning of your story with your a little Cole and the how you see yourself in Cole.
00:33:01
Speaker
Wow. Oddly, I just looked at my baby book and hadn't seen it probably for 40 years. I was like I was four and a half pounds. It's very teeny.
00:33:12
Speaker
And I had all these, yeah, I like a lot of mumps, measles, chicken box, like within the first six months of my life, or maybe it was a year trying to think.
00:33:26
Speaker
But I think that toughness, I've i had to let go of more and more. You know, I can be tough, but it keeps me away from my heart and other people's hearts.
00:33:41
Speaker
I know we just have a little bit of time left. I also want to, I love your phrase, and i don't remember if it was yours or one of the authors, but not alone in our sorrows.
00:33:53
Speaker
What does that phrase feel like to you in this season? Yeah, I've just had so much forgiveness for my mother. so I first go to her because she was way too prickly for anyone to, you know, get near her.
00:34:09
Speaker
um I think sorrow is kind of the key to life. Say more. That's stunning. That's so stunning. Because it opens up your heart beyond yourself.
00:34:21
Speaker
And it makes you realize that we're all alike. And like, we're all uneven ground here, you know, at the foot of the cross, they say. But yeah, I think my problem is sometimes...
00:34:35
Speaker
Unlike yours, I feel that you're so near to your tears and your grief. You're so near. And and i I want to reopen that nearness in my heart more.
00:34:48
Speaker
And might I add, you're naming ah beautiful longing out loud, ah very beautiful longing. And i i also want to just acknowledge of how you said probably for the rest of your life, you will commit to grieving on behalf of communities that don't share your same ethnic background.
00:35:09
Speaker
Yes, I mean, I just, I cannot stop that because it's hideous. So hideous. yes Your tears hold, even though you have not shared them explicitly here.
00:35:21
Speaker
There's such, it goes from like beauty and tenderness and the empathy on behalf of others and the offering them for others at the end, for other communities. And it's stunning. And ah feel like you have fought for your tears.
00:35:39
Speaker
You have fought hard for them. Thank you. I really have. Because I needed to hide them so often. Yes. Yes.
00:35:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, as we start to move here to a close, um,
00:35:57
Speaker
i I love the aliveness, even in the midst of the sorrow that you put words to. And so i I thank you for little glimpses of younger Becky and grandmother Becky and the profound knowledge from all these studies and authors.
Closing Reflections and Honor
00:36:15
Speaker
You're a well.
00:36:16
Speaker
There's a well of wisdom here. And it's an honor to get to hold space and to just have a little peek into the journey of your tears. So thank you. Thank you, Sandhya. Thank you. I feel so cared for and your words are wise.
00:36:33
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Erin Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson and all our guests are part of the Red Tent Living community.
00:36:49
Speaker
You can find us all at redtentliving.com as well as on Facebook and Instagram. If you love the stories shared here, we would be thrilled if you left us a review.
00:37:01
Speaker
Until next week, love to you, dear ones.