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The Good Work of Shepherding Stories of Harm with Tracy Johnson and Katy Stafford
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Most of us carry stories that feel painful, if not impossible, to speak aloud. Stories we fear no one would believe. Stories where we or someone we loved experienced pronounced harm or betrayal. Stories that changed us forever.
What does it mean to live after a story of harm has happened?
In this special episode, Katy and Tracy reflect on the impact of stories of harm that they have navigated and their ongoing relationships with those kinds of stories as they walk forward in their lives. Candid and transformational, this episode is for anyone who has ever wondered, "who would believe me if I could ever find the right words to tell the truth?"
For more stories from brave, ordinary women, join us at Red Tent Living.
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Transcript
Introduction to Red Tent Living Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary.
00:00:12
Speaker
Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives.
Theme of Good Work: Navigating Harm
00:00:22
Speaker
We're excited for you to join us.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to our table.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello. Hello. How are you? I'm freshly arrived. Yes. At your table here at your house. Yeah. the ah The countdown for the baby is officially on. It it is on. And I'm here for it.
00:00:45
Speaker
And while you're here for it, we're... and while you're here for it we're Meeting to share some stories on, um we're in the middle of the theme, good work. um And this episode, we're talking about how we shepherd stories of harm and potentially find strength or goodness amidst those difficult stories. Mm-hmm.
00:01:14
Speaker
so And I like the ah like the title for the episode, you know, because it feels to me when I think about shepherding a story, it it speaks to, you know, tending ah and guiding and it.
00:01:32
Speaker
It invites thoughtfulness. And I think the other thing that when I think about shepherding is that it it has movement to it. It's not static. So, and you and I talked about that a little bit, you know, that the the stories that we carry over time, there's movement.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah. Movement onto what I think is the, is the question. Yeah.
Personal Stories and Unresolved Harm
00:01:56
Speaker
I think neither of us is bringing a fresh story today. We are perhaps bringing stories that have been freshly touched where it's like, Oh, I've been reminded right this for some reason.
00:02:10
Speaker
um But that feels important to where it's like, when it comes to stories of harm, they take time. They take time to form inside of you. And then you're in an ongoing relationship with that story for the rest of your life. Right. And so how do you, how do you carry it?
00:02:30
Speaker
How do you shift with it? Yeah. Sort of what does that mean? Yes. here Yeah. um Well, do you want to go first? Sure.
00:02:42
Speaker
um I called mine deeper good.
00:02:48
Speaker
I have some stories I don't tell. Stories unresolved that left a scar and a flood of shame. Stories that even today I maneuver around carefully when people ask a relatively normal question like, why did you stop attending church?
00:03:07
Speaker
Or who was your first kiss? Or whatever happened to so-and-so? You were close, yeah? I have honest, but not too honest answers that I've crafted to each of those questions.
00:03:24
Speaker
Because the life I've lived behind those answers is messy, stemming from seasons of life that I still struggle to make peace with. Seasons when my trust was broken, I witnessed harm upon harm committed, and everything came to a head in accusations, jobs lost, and relationships forever broken.
00:03:47
Speaker
Those aren't the type of stories you get to just tell. The ugly
Support and Storytelling with Beth
00:03:53
Speaker
stories that don't have closure. Because too often, the risks of speaking outweigh the hope of being known. Hmm.
00:04:02
Speaker
Won't I just sound over the top and dramatic? What if I come off as naive and blind? Won't people assume that a smarter woman would have made a better choice?
00:04:14
Speaker
What if someone feels as though they need to take the other side from me? What if someone doesn't hold the story sacredly? It takes a steady and generous presence with no agenda and a deep sense of knowing to inform my body, yes, it's safe to tell this story here.
00:04:35
Speaker
I think in most cases, that generous presence is found in someone who has lived a story like mine out for themselves. They know the messy pain all too well.
00:04:48
Speaker
I remember the last time I met a woman like that, a woman who made me feel like I didn't have to hold anything back or justify the choices I made in a season of harm. The invitation to truth started in a familiar place, with Beth expressing curiosity about my current church journey.
00:05:08
Speaker
At that point, I'd known Beth long enough and watched her closely enough to sense that I could tell her more than the usual script. So gradually, scene by scene and character by character, I released my church story wound for her tending.
00:05:26
Speaker
I remember what struck me as I told Beth my story was how I allowed myself to stay the main character, never shifting focus to the perpetrators and the why behind their actions, and never vacating my harm to focus more on another victim who had sustained more direct harm than I had.
00:05:45
Speaker
With Beth, it was all right to let my pain stay mine without attempting to contextualize, rationalize, or minimize. And Beth listened.
00:05:57
Speaker
She believed me, and she offered words that told me she knew stories as messy as the one I had navigated. And she understood why it had transformed my relationship with organized religion so dramatically. Mm-hmm.
00:06:11
Speaker
When it comes to stories of harm, there's always a before and an after. A moment when you were one way and you knew one set of truths to be solid. And then a moment when everything was turned on its head and violated.
00:06:26
Speaker
And I think the invitation of the after is to walk gently. It can be tempting to respond to the pain with large swings.
00:06:37
Speaker
Declaring your story brazenly with a burning desire to be heard or to make a perpetrator pay. Swallowing your story completely for fear of judgment and with an attempt to lock away the pain.
00:06:51
Speaker
Reacting to the story with massive shifts in your lifestyle or maintaining a facade as
Challenges in Church Environments
00:06:56
Speaker
if nothing ever happened. What if instead, we sit with our hard stories more quietly, giving them room and permission to change us without amputating who we were before the story happened?
00:07:11
Speaker
It's not the easiest work, I confess. But if we sit and tend and heal, there are friends like Beth, who more than willing to sit alongside us and affirm to, as we find the right and honest words.
00:07:29
Speaker
And maybe from there with a generous presence and no agenda, our stories can become a force for a deeper good. Hmm. Hmm. There's a lot there. um,
00:07:44
Speaker
i think i you know, As you were beginning to read, i i just noticed in in some of the um fears that you were naming, I could hear the accusation and judgment.
00:08:01
Speaker
And it provoked for me sort of were those accusations and judgments your own voice? or Or were those accusations and judgments your that felt like, you know, you have experienced those from others or or maybe a combination of all of the above.
00:08:22
Speaker
They definitely, for me, there was my own self-critic woven in into some of those where it's like i I had to grapple in each of each of the stories that I was sort of referencing with that kind of voice in my head.
00:08:41
Speaker
um And there was context from hearing other people process similar stories that made me imagine what their energy towards me might be as I tried to find my own words. So I didn't ever get that direct response, but I had legitimate fear and I had my own self-critic. Mm-hmm.
00:09:09
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Well, and I think every, every one of your sort of questions that you asked, I found myself like, well, yes, because all of those things that you named could, could happen.
00:09:23
Speaker
And, and I have certainly, you know, i have certainly sat in spaces where poor responses have sounded similar, similar or, or, or have Maybe those weren't the words that were spoken, but they were the unspoken words leaking.
00:09:43
Speaker
Totally. from From the poor response. Yes. um that That was given. Yeah.
Creating Safe Spaces for Sharing
00:09:49
Speaker
I think that this is in in large part put why...
00:09:54
Speaker
ah particularly in sort of churched spaces, ah stories of harm don't get told. ah You know, sadly, it's been my experience that one of the most unsafe places to tell a story can be it in at church.
00:10:12
Speaker
yeah Because people want to They either they either but want to respond to the Bible verse or ah or they want to pray for you or, you know, they're uncomfortable with what you've said. Yeah.
00:10:27
Speaker
So they don't know how to respond. um I think the other thing, i as you shifted out of that, though, and sort of into your actual moment with Beth, I thought her question, what a great way to ask her question.
00:10:41
Speaker
She asked you what your current journey with church was. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I wonder if even that question was part of what caused you to feel like, oh, that was a really thoughtful way to ask that.
00:10:56
Speaker
Absolutely. As opposed to like, why don't you go to church anymore? Right. Or where are you going to church? Right. Both of which come stacked with kind of assumption. Right.
00:11:07
Speaker
Um, like, Even the way Beth framed it told me, like, well, so you're on a journey with church. Right. A journey has, it certainly has a start.
00:11:19
Speaker
um It doesn't have a fixed conclusion. Like, so there's, there's just a lot of openness. there. Yeah. I don't think somebody who hasn't, somebody who hasn't had their own journey with going to church or, you know, their relationship with the church would never think to ask the question that way. No.
00:11:38
Speaker
And certainly like where I grew up, um, where, where we were, as I grew up, you would never ask that because that would be totally in it. You shouldn't be in a journey with church. Church is a commitment, right? Like,
00:11:54
Speaker
Church is just something that you do. Right. And so to acknowledge that you might be in a season of not attending church and that might have reasons behind it, that would be something to pray for, not something to be curious about. Right. And we're back to the judgment.
00:12:09
Speaker
Right. Because that but it the the the judgment is that something's wrong with you. Yeah. You know, there's something very unholy and ungodly and unbiblical if
Impact of Being a Bystander to Harm
00:12:21
Speaker
you're doing anything other than going to church. Right.
00:12:24
Speaker
Um, so I just, I, I, yeah, I, I, I loved the question. I thought that was a brilliant way so to ask that. So expansive and permission giving.
00:12:39
Speaker
um I thought it was also interesting, Katie, like it felt like it was important to you um to name that that you recognize that you were staying the main character.
00:12:53
Speaker
Can you say what what would you want to say about like, why was it important yeah to recognize that? Yeah. As I was thinking of the most pronounced stories of harm that I carry, it is interesting.
00:13:04
Speaker
All of them happen in the context of church. None of them happen directly to me. They happen to very intimate relationships near me. And my loyalty to that person is unflagging.
00:13:19
Speaker
And so like what I experience in the church, aftermath of that like what I feel and moments where it was like I was taken in and didn't understand and harm happened and i wasn't aware or i um I see the story of harm in a different light somebody is articulating this harm happened to me and I hold their story differently than they do. i mean, these are all details that, right? it Like it's it's messy as you dive in, but it's like, i I don't have a story of being sexually violated at church.
00:14:01
Speaker
I don't have a story of, um somebody making a personal gendered attack on me. I don't like, it's not me, but I'm, I'm living through a story that happens with another person.
00:14:14
Speaker
I think it's important. It feels important to, to name right now that, you know, trauma doesn't it happen only to the person who experiences, right.
00:14:32
Speaker
The betrayal. Right. And there, and there's actually a component that to be a bystander, to, to to be watching it happen or to have known that you were in a space where it was happening.
00:14:46
Speaker
Um, and, and, and to feel the powerlessness, uh, that, that you felt, um And I'm aware of some of these stories. Right. And so it feels I'm i'm just i think I want to say like, and it did happen to you. Yeah, it it did happen to you.
00:15:07
Speaker
Something what happened to you was different. Exactly. Than what happened to the person who, you know, might seem to be the main character.
Layered Trauma in Church Settings
00:15:18
Speaker
Right.
00:15:19
Speaker
Right. you know but it But it did happen to you. And you just like you said, there was a before and there was an after. And the circumstances are are tragic.
00:15:33
Speaker
So you you are impacted by the tragedy. And without any place to to turn to, and I think that, um i know i know there was some of that.
00:15:48
Speaker
for you, um at least in one of these stories where you've, you had to keep showing up in your life yeah and not speak yeah about what had happened. ah That, that I believe is, is when it became traumatic for you because i think, um,
00:16:15
Speaker
best husband, Chris says, you know, that trauma is what happens when we experience something tragic and the tragedy is not met with kindness. So when something tragic happens and there is kindness and there is care and there is a safe place to go in the wake of whatever the tragedy is, that doesn't have to become trauma that can remain ah tragedy.
00:16:41
Speaker
um but it becomes trauma when that isn't allowed to happen. That can't happen. And that, that is certainly at play. Yeah. For you, which is why I think it, the the stories feel big inside, but back to what I asked you, it's like, it it feels like perhaps it felt difficult for you to feel like you could speak about what was going on for you because the experience of the other felt like that this is this is the this is the tragedy. This is the thing right here. And so, you know, you you don't get to talk about what's going on for you. This is what's happening for them. Yeah.
00:17:24
Speaker
And the, you know, as I was processing, I'll take them the most relevant example, which was actually the story that I unpacked with Beth. Like I was in therapy immediately after that happened, processing that.
00:17:40
Speaker
And my therapist was the one who noted, like, often this story shifts in who it's about, right? Sometimes it's about the perpetrator because I'm working to make sense of what have of the choices made.
00:17:56
Speaker
um And sometimes it's about a different victim because you perceive the harm that that person's experiencing to be more pronounced. But how do you keep it about you?
00:18:07
Speaker
Right. um and I think it felt hard to talk about what was going on for me because I was also aware, and I don't know if any, I'm sure other people have experienced this.
00:18:20
Speaker
It was a loaded dynamic.
Legal Constraints and Silencing
00:18:23
Speaker
And I was acutely aware that even one of the perpetrators had sustained harm in a systemic way that they were grappling with.
00:18:35
Speaker
And in a different circumstance, I would have been very aligned with that perpetrator. And so i was having I was having very layered interactions with trauma.
00:18:50
Speaker
And I was i was having like self-reflective space of like, What does this mean about me? Who am I? You're describing such disorientation. And like the work that you were doing in therapy feels like you were trying to reorient yourself. Yes.
00:19:09
Speaker
And having... And and it was it was difficult. Yes. Totally. And I think... I have known that kind, I have heard those kinds of stories most often in relationship to the church.
00:19:24
Speaker
Well, yeah. um Yes. That is just a, it is a system that is rife with that kind of harm where like power and privilege and um reputation can drive often men in particular to do a number of things that maybe they didn't even know they would do.
00:19:52
Speaker
um And it can create a desperation that um leaves women often feeling voiceless and um can lead to some surprising expressions from them to try and get reattached to community.
00:20:15
Speaker
um and all of that was at play and so there there weren't it really wasn't a space where it's like oh these are the good guys and these are the bad guys it's like no this is just horrible this is tragic this is tragic i mean this is at at ah you you have a at multiple at multiple levels you have tragedy yeah um So, yes, I mean, and and and it's not, it's messy.
00:20:48
Speaker
It's messy. Sometimes, sometimes it's not messy. Sometimes it's very clear. Yes. um And it's very obvious. And then other times it it's more nuanced and it's storied and it's complex.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah. um And I like the way you put it. It's like, it's not like, well, these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. It's like these, these are the humans that, that are each expressing ah something of, of their own storied brokenness.
Healing Through Understanding
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah. And how they're interrelating.
00:21:26
Speaker
um and And, and it's, and it's tragic. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when you, introduce any sort of legal ah dynamic to that, gets silencing very quickly because you are allowed to say certain things and you aren't allowed to say other things. And so that can tamp down.
00:21:50
Speaker
I think that can create some of the trauma harm that Chris talks about, where it's like, there is not a kind space for that to get expressed. It's very important that not get expressed right now.
00:22:02
Speaker
Right, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. um and And the isolation and the feeling of of being misunderstood. And ah and and in that, I think, you know, almost like i' it's it's feeling re-violating.
00:22:22
Speaker
Totally. Totally. Yeah. And when it was done, when that conversation Beth came to a close for you, how were you changed?
00:22:35
Speaker
What was different for you? I felt like there was just, it was like a maybe return. it It feels like an expansiveness was unlocked. Like it was easier to breathe again.
00:22:48
Speaker
i think stories that we keep inside, whether we're acknowledging them, whether we're repressing them, like they do, they take a physical toll on our bodies. So they, they for me, like feel heavy, ah constricting, like, so there was a physiological response, even though I knew there were other people who carried that story.
00:23:16
Speaker
It's different to tell somebody uninvolved. I was going to say, this was, I think this was the first time that you had felt the freedom to to speak about this without it being family or, or your therapist. Yes.
00:23:33
Speaker
It 100% was. It was the first time. It was like you told it out in the world yeah in a way. You know, yeah not from a platform, but... And I had, I'd risked it with a couple of close friends who were removed.
00:23:49
Speaker
They did not have bad responses, but I could see in their eyes that they didn't fully understand. Right. And that it did make them a little uncomfortable. Yeah. ah They were with me,
00:24:01
Speaker
but Beth was different. And i I believe it's because like, I don't know that those friends had ever walked through something like that before. So they're they're like, I'm hearing a lot right now.
00:24:13
Speaker
Like, and I don't know what to do with it. Yes. And Beth knew what to do with it. And so there was just an added layer of healing and release where it's like, oh, I can fully inhabit my body and live inside the world.
00:24:30
Speaker
And feel known. Right. This isn't as isolating. Right. As it has felt. There might be more of these stories. Even though I know cognitively there are so many of these stories.
00:24:43
Speaker
Well, what's interesting, Katie, is that yeah you didn't need to tell a lot of people. I don't know that you've told that story since then. Yeah, that's a good... Maybe not. But...
00:24:55
Speaker
There is also, i don't know if you've found this, once you've told, they're I find that it really only takes telling the story like that once. And suddenly your mind relaxes and sometimes you look at people and you wonder, have I told you or have I not?
00:25:11
Speaker
Because it doesn't feel so big inside of you. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't matter the way it did. i mean, I think that that's like...
The Weight of Untold Stories
00:25:19
Speaker
Maya Angelou's quote, you know there is no there is no pain um like the pain or the burden of an untold story. Completely. There was a time where I knew exactly how many people on earth right knew the story. right I don't know that anymore.
00:25:35
Speaker
because And I think it's because of that moment. That moment did something that it was like, oh, I can I'm still in relationship with it. It still impacts me, but It doesn't have a ah power or a binding that maybe it did for a while.
00:25:54
Speaker
That makes total sense. Should I go? Yeah. What about you? but about you? um i did not title this.
Family Harm and Validation
00:26:04
Speaker
so You may want to consider asking your parents to give you any of their jewelry that has any value to the family.
00:26:13
Speaker
My mom's dementia was continuing to impact more and more of her daily choices. The concern that she might leave her rings in an odd location or accidentally throw them away was increasing.
00:26:25
Speaker
It made sense, with my dad also beginning to have more forget for forgetful moments to collect his two. The brown and black leather box has been on his dresser for as long as I can remember.
00:26:37
Speaker
Opening it, I found his wedding ring and a signet ring. gold band with a black rectangle setting with a diamond in the center. Initially, my breath caught in my chest.
00:26:50
Speaker
Then I reminded myself to slowly take another breath. Inhale, exhale. Picking up both rings, I added them to my mom's rings and dropped them into the small blue silk bag I had with me.
00:27:02
Speaker
I hadn't thought about my grandfather's ring in a long time, but I recognized it as soon as I opened the box. I have vague memories of it on his right hand, and I don't think my dad ever wore it.
00:27:16
Speaker
In the weeks that followed, I found myself opening the silk bag, taking out the signet ring, and looking at it. Holding the ring in my hand invited me to consider how I was holding the piece of my story tied to my grandfather.
00:27:30
Speaker
What did I feel about this family heirloom passed from my grandfather to my dad and now in my hand? My thoughts returned to a conversation with my dad about my grandfather exposing me to his pornography addiction.
00:27:44
Speaker
My parents had come for a visit and we were sitting at the table in the dining room of our Michigan house. The windows were open and the slight breeze was bringing the aroma of peonies into the house. My dad had taken all of the family slides and had them preserved on CDs and we'd been combing through them.
00:28:01
Speaker
When he turned and said, and would really like to hear more of a story about how my dad harmed you. ah had told my parents about the abuse from my grandpa years prior to this, but had not gone into any detail.
00:28:14
Speaker
I had been waiting, wondering if at some point my dad would want to know more. The question felt like a gift, and yet I was still uncomfortable. At one point, I asked him when he was first exposed to his dad's pornography, and he shared his story, and then there was a sobering, tearful moment when he looked at me and said, I knew, and I dismissed the danger, Tracy.
00:28:38
Speaker
It never occurred to me that you were at risk. I'm so sorry. i was responsible for protecting you. That day, my dad and I talked about a lot of things tied to my grandpa and the culture of our nuclear family of four when I was growing up.
00:28:54
Speaker
At one point, he told me, i can see now there was no way you could have come home and told mom and I about what happened. We did a good job of telling you we were only safe for tidy stories, not stories about being exposed to pornography.
00:29:08
Speaker
Our failure left you alone at 10 years old with a secret that was never yours to carry. The validation of his words lifted something heavy i had been holding. i had heard similar words from my counselor, and I knew it wasn't my fault.
00:29:24
Speaker
But hearing those words from my dad restored a sense of goodness for my 10-year-old self. She was truly absolved for any responsibility. The kindness of him owning his part, taking responsibility for his failures meant I didn't have to bear responsibility anymore.
00:29:42
Speaker
The conversation came 35 years after the harm. And that day I experienced that it is never too late for kindness to intersect trauma and begin to transform it back into tragedy.
Recovery Journey and Story Shepherding
00:29:55
Speaker
My grandpa's ring is a tangible reminder of his presence in my story. My relationship with him shaped me. He's a thread in the tapestry of my life, and for a long time I ignored how his abuse was woven into me, how it shaped me, and what was lost for me.
00:30:14
Speaker
My choice was not to shepherd the story, but to try and leave it, and my 10-year-old self, in the past. Recovery from the harm has been a journey. The story work I did years ago and that conversation with my dad helped me learn to welcome my 10-year-old self back home inside of me.
00:30:33
Speaker
For a season, i shared that story from the platform when I would teach on recovering from sexual abuse. In my current work, I don't often tell the story, but that 10-year-old part of me is never far away.
00:30:45
Speaker
She is one of my wisest guides as I engage the stories of my clients today.
00:30:54
Speaker
i
00:30:57
Speaker
anticipated, I was expecting the moment in the Michigan house to be when you told Pop Pop the story. And I found myself stunned, surprised that it was the moment when he revisited the story with you.
00:31:16
Speaker
That felt so striking. Mm-hmm. Um... And to me, it felt like it had this tie to it of like, it's never too late.
00:31:30
Speaker
ah And also like, it's a long time to wait for his words. And it speaks to like these living stories inside of us that it's like,
00:31:44
Speaker
we are an ongoing relationship with it. What happened for you when he initiated that conversation and Michigan? I felt surprised, not in a bad way, but surprised in a good way.
00:31:57
Speaker
and like I said, i it felt uncomfortable. Yeah. um i I had more, at that point, I had done a lot more of my own work. When I shared that,
00:32:12
Speaker
had shared that with them like years and years and years before it was early in my own like process ah of, you know, understanding that story and what had actually happened, like giving it context and, and beginning to really name the impact on me.
00:32:40
Speaker
I mean, we're talking probably almost 10 years, ah you know, From then that first, like this happened to me to then sitting at the table with him. And so i i also wondered like, where, where are we going to go Because I have more things to talk to you about that are more disturbing.
00:33:02
Speaker
um And we went all of those places that day. and And I think I look back on it with, I mean, that it it is not a bad memory for me and a day that I understood.
00:33:16
Speaker
You know, the buried stories, the things we don't talk about, the dismissing, like how much damage actually comes out of that.
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah. um and The thing that I'm thinking about right now is like, you know, there's there's a there are patterns that have been broken because of of places where I told the truth.
00:33:42
Speaker
Um, and, and it had a, it had a domino effect, right? So I told my truths and then that meant, you know, pop pop told his truth. Right. And then I was able to say, okay, well, in light of that, how about this truth?
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and by the time he was able to talk to his sister, you know, she, she had already, she was having some like cognitive, some memory issues and, um, wasn't, wasn't able to have the conversation with him that I think he really longed for with her. but,
00:34:21
Speaker
but ah But it was it was healing as much as it could be. And I think the other thing, Katie, is that, you know, i didn't i didn't need that conversation with him at the table that day.
Father's Acknowledgment and Healing
00:34:35
Speaker
I was ready for it. But the fact that we hadn't had that conversation had not inhibited my own process. I do think It was a gift to hear him take responsibility.
00:34:51
Speaker
Right. I knew that. I knew that. i cognitively knew that. I knew that it wasn't my fault. ah And and for ah for a lot of people, that's all you get.
00:35:04
Speaker
You know, right because healing, i don't believe that healing is dependent on your parents having exactly the right words for you about whatever. ah Healing happens in in much broader ways because if it's tied to some individual having to say the exact thing or be available for the conversation, that is a very small possibility.
00:35:30
Speaker
Right. You know, that healing can happen. And, uh, my experience of that responsibility being lifted off of me was definitely like augmented or enhanced by seeing his face and having him articulate for himself to me what I already knew.
00:35:54
Speaker
Yes. I heard Um, um I don't think it necessarily changed your relationship with your 10 year old self, but it feels like it, I don't know. It kind of feels like he gave her her um very dignified clothes to wear.
00:36:13
Speaker
Like you, you had already welcomed her home. You were already in relation, but like he did give her a present yeah and that has mattered to you.
00:36:24
Speaker
Yeah. And I, you know, that mattered. I think the validation and he, he did this more than once.
Breaking Family Cycles of Harm
00:36:31
Speaker
It's one of the reasons I, I am so grateful that, that my dad chose at 65 years old to start doing his own work, you know, but, but when he named, like, you couldn't have come home and told us that story.
00:36:47
Speaker
I think I could count on one hand, the number of men who've responded that self-aware right and like child a child's story of harm. That was stunning.
00:36:57
Speaker
Oh, and i i i do I do have to wonder, and I think I partially believe that some of that might have been because we were literally looking at slides. at slides We were looking at pictures.
00:37:11
Speaker
right of me at that age. and And we had been talking about you know other things that were true in that time. And so I think he felt very present to it.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah. and And very aware that it was like, oh yeah, like that that little family, like you could not have come home. that there was He knew enough.
00:37:36
Speaker
yeah At that point in his life, he understood enough. to To understand it what wasn't welcome, what couldn't have been spoken.
00:37:47
Speaker
I felt that even in you know, as you were holding the signet ring and you were thinking about it and you're like, Pop-Pop never wore that ring. He never wore it. That tells you, unspoken, ton.
00:38:00
Speaker
A ton. That he kept it and that he never wore it. Well, and right. And I'm sure that I'm sure that his mom gave it to him after his dad died or his sister did sort of, you know, you're the only son that should go to you. And, ah but you know, it'll and it'll probably go to Uncle J.R. I just i I'm just the stopping place right in between. And it'll probably, you know, maybe it'll sit on his dresser for 25 years.
00:38:32
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know. I can't imagine him wearing it.
Generational Impact and Wisdom
00:38:35
Speaker
yeah it um
00:38:38
Speaker
To me, the the ring feels like such a marker for this larger theme of like, we do carry our stories with us and our relationship with them changes over time.
00:38:50
Speaker
and they and they And they are passed down. Whether we speak them or whether we don't speak them, yeah the impact of the story is getting passed. Yeah. The impact of my grandfather's relationship with pornography got got passed to my dad, who knew that his father had a relationship with pornography.
00:39:12
Speaker
um that was That was not something that Pop-Pop struggled with. so That wasn't part of his story, but he knew that his dad... He was aware. Yeah. mean He was very aware. Yeah. um um It got passed to me.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah. So, and it and it stops with me.
00:39:37
Speaker
um But I think in large part, because it got talked about. Right. You ah conclude by talking about that it doesn't It doesn't necessarily feel important or needed to tell that story i mean anymore so much.
00:39:57
Speaker
And that that 10-year-old is often ah part of your counsel as you're interacting with clients and you call her wise. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about her and how you've come to recognize that that's what she brings.
00:40:18
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i ah that's that's a great question. It's a big question. um
00:40:28
Speaker
i mean, she she's the part of me that knows. She hears in another person's story. She knows, like... You know, i i i can think of a time, Katie, when I, you know, before I had done enough of this work that i i sat in a circle and and in in that particular circle, ah there was somebody talking about their relationship with pornography. And I look back at how my my response was and it speaks to how disconnected i was from my 10-year-old self.
00:41:03
Speaker
Did not want her anywhere near and And so my my reaction in that moment was was very dismissive of the of the gravity of of what was being said.
00:41:17
Speaker
right i had a very dismissive response. um and and And not anymore. Right. But I think a part of it has been realizing that like that girl and what she experienced, what she knows, what she saw, all of what she saw, not just the images that she saw, but ah the look on her grandfather's face, the complexity of his delight in her and his darkness. um She
00:41:53
Speaker
was changed by that. But, but as I've gone back to do that work now, it's like now, now when she's with me, I have those eyes to see the complexity, the complexity of darkness that can be wedded with delight.
00:42:09
Speaker
Um, I, I, I'm not dismissive, right? Because she knows the gravity. Yeah. of what happened. And when she's with me, I can feel the gravity.
00:42:22
Speaker
I can feel the gravity in a room. Um, and she's also a great reminder of like, uh, places that, that I don't have to stay because they don't feel good. Right. She left and you get to leave.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think, you know, we tend to exile those parts of ourself that we can't, we can't integrate what happened to that part with, with living life the way we think we're supposed to. And so, you know, these little pieces get fragmented off or left behind. And, and in reality, they're like really important.
00:43:09
Speaker
And you're right. And really necessary. To integrate them does mean you have to live differently. Right. like Right. It changes you. It's like, I can't keep living the way that I did. And I think, you know, maybe, maybe that's a clear name for part of what, ah you know, got changed. Pop Pop dismissed the magnitude of it.
00:43:31
Speaker
I dismissed the magnitude of it. And so for when I said no, no more dismissing. It gets to weigh what it weighed.
00:43:43
Speaker
That shifted. I'm sure his dad dismissed the magnitude, which is why he left things laying around the way that he did. What I love about you deciding to change that, however, is that like pop-up becomes the ripple effect. Because you then you do...
00:44:03
Speaker
but Lots and lots of people don't take their children up on this invitation. But like when a child with generational harm decides to let it weigh what it weighs, everybody in the family gets an invitation to let it weigh what it weighs. And they get to this decide whether they want to or not.
00:44:23
Speaker
Right. And not everybody wants to. Right. I mean, and that's a, that's a difference between my dad and my mom. Yeah. So And I don't want to sit in judgment ah over her choice, ah you know, because it it was a different choice.
00:44:42
Speaker
And I think I understand today some of the reasons why. um and that has that has cultivated more compassion in me for her.
00:44:53
Speaker
ah But... But impacted it impacted the relationships nonetheless. Right. So, you know, there's a there was a closeness and an understanding ah and an intimacy that grew out of the honesty that Pop Pop was willing to bring to his own life.
00:45:21
Speaker
And then, you know, to his curiosity about mine, um that was just deeper than what my Patty was willing to do. Yeah. um I feel like we could stay here a really long time. And as we shift and look forward rather than looking backward, what do you feel like today you're carrying forward? These are familiar stories. You've walked them well, but like.
00:45:49
Speaker
what peace feels new to ponder today? Uh, you know, I think, honestly, I think one of the things I'm, I'm going to take is the, uh, the generosity of how Beth talked to you about your journey
Carrying Forward Lessons and Interactions
00:46:05
Speaker
with church. Mm.
00:46:06
Speaker
um I find myself often in settings where, you know, the the conversation about church can be complicated and difficult. I just really like the way she asked you that.
00:46:18
Speaker
So I will be ah will be taking that with me for sure. and And then I think the other thing that I'll be taking, and I love, you know, your your therapist noticing with you,
00:46:33
Speaker
how you were, you know, losing yourself, losing you being the main character um in a situation where you're not the one experiencing the harm directly. The way that you worded it and and the way that you talked about it for yourself, it was like, huh, that was interesting. I'm going to take that too.
00:46:54
Speaker
I'm going to take, i just really loved, I think it's painful, but I really loved that Pop-Pop came back.
00:47:05
Speaker
I've had moments, I think we've all had moments where maybe we shared something and we were hoping for a response. And as ah someone who does not, and maybe this is all of us, delight in being overly vulnerable, like it takes risk, right? To show up when the response you get is bad.
00:47:26
Speaker
I can feel tempted to clamp it down and be like, well, that was that response. We're done. And now my healing is my own. Like, And i love, you didn't need him, but you continued your work.
00:47:41
Speaker
And so when he came back, you were uncomfortable, but you weren't ugly and you let it happen. I think that is a really lovely and important invitation to me of like, what's it look like to stay open, to let stories keep changing people, keep changing me.
00:47:59
Speaker
Not to expect or demand ah specific response, but to live in a way where it's allowed to happen. And then your relationship with your dad really did gain a lot of depth.
00:48:12
Speaker
And 20 years is a long time to get to live with that much honesty. That was. it was. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Yeah, it was. It was a long time. ah You know, Katie, I think that is the energy, though, of the of the prodigal.
00:48:31
Speaker
It's the energy in the story yeah of the prodigal, right? It's that, like, watching from the front porch. Yeah.
00:48:42
Speaker
You know, watching and waiting. Hoping. Hoping. um Still telling the field and still living life. Right. Yeah. But, but always with an eye on the road for who might be coming. Yeah. I think that's a very um defenseless way to live.
00:49:02
Speaker
That's really beautiful. Like to not be so guarded and, you know, overly protective I think that's the thing with parents is that it's like, I mean, really with anybody, but I, but I think with parents in particular, you get, you get to decide how, how do you want to shepherd the story? Are you going to cut them off because they had a poor response? Now, ah you know, if the harm is ongoing, that that's a different, totally. that
00:49:37
Speaker
That's a different thing. But, but I will often You know, it's like, what, what, what do you want to do now? What is available? What, how do you want to be in relationship with people in light of reality?
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah. o Good work. Good work. Good work. Hard work. Thanks for diving into it with me. Yeah, you too. Good.
Podcast Credits and Listener Engagement
00:50:02
Speaker
The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Aaron Stafford.
00:50:09
Speaker
Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson, and all our guests are part of the Red Tent Living community. You can find us all at redtentliving.com, as well as on Facebook and Instagram.
00:50:22
Speaker
If you love the stories shared here, we would be thrilled if you left us a review. Until next week, love to you, dear ones.