Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Cultivating a Culture of Gratitude with Sandhya Oaks and Susan Tucker
75 Plays21 days ago
Surprising, poignant, and creative, Sandhya and Susan share a conversation together about practices of gratitude they have woven into the rhythms of their lives thanks to friendship. From the sacredness of a dinner table to a courageous game practiced 30,000 feet in the air, these women shine a light on the ways we can all grow more present, more thankful, and more connected to the people around us. Tune in for a rich conversation unlike any other.
For more stories from brave, ordinary women, join us at Red Tent Living.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Red Tent Living Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary. Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives.
Welcoming Susan: Gratitude and Community
00:00:22
Speaker
We're excited for you to join us. Welcome to our table.
00:00:27
Speaker
Right. Good to see you, Susan. Sunday is so lovely to see you. been a while It's been a long time since you were here um in Colorado. yeah Yeah. How are you feeling as we step into our conversation today and yeah our time? Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I really loved considering this topic and just the different communities of my circles of friends and family that it led me to just ponder with this idea of gratitude. It was really good for my heart to go there, spend some time thinking about it.
00:01:02
Speaker
What about you? I love it. I love that. Very contemplative. yeah um It took me a little bit to like think about like what story do I want to bring and um how do I want to bring this. I love the theme um of cultivating gratitude communally. and There's something about it that feels maybe a little untouched to me of like just met the surface. And so it allowed me to contemplate, think a little bit below the surface and ponder like, yeah, what does that mean to me? How have I seen that?
00:01:33
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I'm excited to hear where it led you. Awesome. Wonderful. Well, as you're ready, I am here for you and um ready to engage and hear your words.
Susan's Essay: 'The Roundtable' and Friendship Stories
00:01:47
Speaker
I titled this essay, The Roundtable. The six of us are seated at a roundtable in the center of the restaurant. We insist on a roundtable, and if the restaurant doesn't offer one, then we glance at each other knowingly. It's unlikely that we'll be back.
00:02:03
Speaker
A round table is as important as the drink selection or the menu. Maybe more important. We don't like to be disconnected in any way when we meet for a meal. We don't want to decide if we're going to sit according to couples or gender. No, we want to sit in a cozy circle. The six of us are comprised of three couples whose relationships stretch back 20 to 30 years. There's Brian, the one I've known the longest.
00:02:32
Speaker
We met my sophomore year of college on a mission trip, and the story has now become legendary. A group of 20 or so college students on a spring break trip to Myrtle Beach. The guys spent their days working construction while the girls did, wait for it, clown ministry. I confess that I still resent the fact that Brian escaped beachfront evangelism in full clown garb. But regardless, he and I have remained friends.
00:02:59
Speaker
He is one of the few people in my life who visited my childhood home, who met my grandmother who's now been gone for 28 years and who knew my mom and dad. The tie that binds us is strong. Then there's Tara, Brian's wife. There's evidence that I've known her since my college days too, as I discovered a photo not too many years ago of a group of college girlfriends. And lo and behold, there sat Tara in our midst.
00:03:25
Speaker
We must have run in parallel friend groups at our Baptist College, but our lives didn't truly intersect until she and Brian moved to Knoxville, where we live 13 years ago. Since then, Tara has become one of my closest confidants, stepping into my story and life with her tender, pastoral heart on many occasions. Next, there's Tim, my husband. He's the third in this circle who attended the same Baptist College as me, and we officially met before our senior year.
00:03:55
Speaker
We began dating in November of that year, and we have been together together ever since. I could tell story upon story about Tim, but for this tale, I'll just say that the first time we sat at a dining table together and realized that we are both left-handed, something clicked. It felt so good to not bash bows with the person beside me. We have been harmoniously sitting side by side at tables for 31 years now. And one of our favorite tables is this round one surrounded by these friends.
00:04:25
Speaker
Beside Tim sits Donna, our feisty friend transplanted decades ago from Long Island. We met Donna 22 years ago when we began attending a new church. She oversaw the children's ministry where Tim and I soon began to volunteer. I remember being initially intimidated by Donna. She's an Enneagram 8, which can sometimes be a lot for an Enneagram 4 like me, but I like to tell Donna that she's a healthy 8, and I know that's true because I've never been afraid of her.
00:04:55
Speaker
Over the years, Donna and I have bonded as we've gathered women together for spiritual encouragement and growth. She is one of my favorite persons to dream with, lead with, and play with. And beside Donna sits her husband, Joe. Also from Long Island, Joe always leads with his huge heart, seeing others so well and reaching out to them with an abundant generosity of spirit. Joe was an elder at our church along with Tim and Brian, and it was in this context that I first met him.
00:05:25
Speaker
Over the years, however, our relationship has given us more and more opportunity to know and love the other as a dear friend and a sister and brother in Christ. These
Bonding Through Church Departure
00:05:35
Speaker
stories tell of how my life intersected with each of these amazing people. However, the story of our friendship's deepening stretches back eight years as we were each grappling with life and leadership in our church. As I mentioned, the three men were elders.
00:05:51
Speaker
And each of us women had at one time served on the church staff in different positions. Each of us also led ministries beyond these official roles. And outside of ministry, we were raising our families in this church. Thus, it was no small thing when we began to acknowledge problems and concerns that would eventually prompt us to step down from leadership and leave the church.
00:06:15
Speaker
We did not do this as a collective, but over the span of a year, each couple made the decision to leave in their own time. This decision left us in a wilderness that felt unfamiliar, uncertain, and very, very lonely. And it was in this wilderness that the six of us came together as spiritual companions and soul friends. In the early months and years, we would often find solace by turning to these friends and being reminded that we aren't crazy.
00:06:44
Speaker
and that our decision to leave the church wasn't rash. Then we affirmed one another's journey through the wilderness as we explored what church might look like in our future. We have not landed in the same place, or in the same church for that matter, but we continue to journey together. Over time, church talk began to consume less and less of our time, and now our rich shared history and our ongoing shared life provides an abundance of material for our conversations.
00:07:15
Speaker
There's something so dear to me about the familiarity of this group and the simplest thing of sitting down for a meal with them. At the round table, we knowingly leave the seats facing the exit doors open for Brian and Joe. This gives them a sense of ease throughout the evening and without needing to understand why, we try to be mindful of their preference. Then the discussion commences on sharing a bottle of wine. And if so, which wine?
00:07:41
Speaker
Everyone knows that red wine will send me straight into a hot flash, so they offer to order white just for me. Once we've settled on our drinks, the couples turn to each other to discuss their the menu. Our friends like to split their meal, and Tim and I do not, so Tim and I make our decisions much more quickly. But maybe, given more time, our friends will teach us to share too. Once the work of ordering is complete, the conversation begins. Catching up on our week, our work, our families,
00:08:11
Speaker
and then falling into a familiar rhythm that includes reminiscing, joking, dreaming, and planning. And the conversation easily continues until the checks are paid. I don't take these evenings for granted. Two years ago, we almost lost Joe when he had a serious heart attack that led to bypass surgery. As I prayed for his recovery, I held a picture in my mind's eye of each meal, celebration, and trip I dreamed the six of us would share in the future.
00:08:42
Speaker
And just last month, we gathered around the table to celebrate my birthday and discuss our upcoming cruise to Alaska. Joe began our evening with prayer. I am grateful for the gift of these friendships forged over time through loss in the wilderness and around the table. And I look forward to gathering around the table with these friends for many more years.
00:09:06
Speaker
Susan, your words bring me right to that table and the round table of how you start with and how it echoes at the end. It's like very visible to me even though I've never dined at that table or seen your friends. There's a captivatingness to it. Don't we all long for a round table? And I'm curious about the glance at the beginning when you when you name that if they don't have a round table available, you you have a glance Um, can you share a little more about that? What does that g glance say? Like, I think that glance is so important because it speaks of relationships that don't really require words to communicate. And it's very rare to have a relationship like that with somebody in my experience, like beyond my husband. And so to have people who we know each other so well, that we have a certain way that we just look or a certain smirk on our lips that we know what the other's thinking without words having to pass between us.
00:10:05
Speaker
yeah And in the glance, what are some of the words there? Well, this won't do, you know, rectangle table won't do for us because that means we have to enter into like the discussion of, hey well, are we going to, which couple's going to split up? Cause we can't all sit together because the men need to sit together so they can hear one another. But I want to hear what the men are saying and they want to hear what the girls are saying. So it's but becomes really challenging because nobody wants to cede.
00:10:34
Speaker
a seat next to another person. So that's the lovely thing about a round table. Nobody has to be separated. We can all be have eye contact and be within earshot of each other and hear every story that's going to pass over the course of the evening. There's something so that's forged in that that's so beautiful and so touching. And the fact that you want the men to be able to hear each other, but you also want to hear what they're sharing. It just sounds like vibrant. That's the word I picture is like vibrant of There's a desire to be with and with around that space. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true and it never, it never gets old. Yeah. It never gets old. We look forward to it every time we walk in for a meal, whether it's at one of our homes or in a restaurant. Yeah. It never gets dull. Yeah. So if it never gets dull and never gets old, what does it get? What does it become? I think it becomes richer over time and
00:11:34
Speaker
I was thinking about this as I pondered this idea of gratitude is like, I think like being in a community of gratitude like this turns friends into allies, and into family. I never get tired of being with my family, like this family, such a gift. and Yeah, such a gift.
00:11:56
Speaker
I love it. Kind of like the sense of it gets better even with time. And over
Friendship Traditions and Adventures
00:12:01
Speaker
time, I hear the, the rawness and you even use the words shared heartache. Um, that this round table wasn't just built in one day. There's a lot of shared heartache. How has that heartache played a role in the table and in the connection? That's so true, c Sandia, because leaving our church together wasn't the first.
00:12:26
Speaker
hard thing that we walked through together. It was a very anchoring event that we walked to together because we were all six traversing that terrain at the same time. But before then, Donna's dad had died and we had gathered around her during a very long season of his demise and then Joe's dad had a stroke and gathered around him and that loss. I mean, our history goes back through so much.
00:12:54
Speaker
both loss and celebration. They've been the ones that have been walking with me over the past few years of my mom's decline as she's entered her 90s and is suffering from dementia. Like they have, they have my back and my tears never are too much for them. They never tire of hearing, you know, and never stop checking. How's your mom?
00:13:13
Speaker
when they know the answer, but they want me to have a space to be able to like speak it aloud and be held in that because they know it's a really lonely space to be a caregiver for an aging parent. So there's such a gift in that and um yeah, it just forges that bond even more and more deeply.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I get the sense that there's similar seasons of life, but yet way different paths as far as like what your families look like and where you guys are living and yet traversed. We are fortunate that we live probably within a 15 mile radius of each other, which is a real gift. So these are people that Like here's a recent story. Tim and I were walking at the park at four o'clock on Sunday and we got a text from Joe saying, hey, anybody want to come plan the excursions for our cruise? And so we were sitting around their table having a meal 90 minutes later with our laptops open after the meal to pick what adventures we wanted to share when we are are on our cruise in August. So we are so blessed to have the ability of spontaneity in our relationship and also
00:14:27
Speaker
being able to plan for things in the future like baby showers for our children or whatever might be coming up. You know, we're always dreaming. We're always offering hospitality to one another and just such generosity of spirit among this group of friends. It's not lost on me how rare that is.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yes, rare indeed. It's something i I would think everyone would want and long for and even need in their journeys. um Just the last couple minutes here, I just want to even ask like, it's a little bit of a turn here. But what what would you say to someone who doesn't have this and yet hold the gift of what it is close to you?
00:15:14
Speaker
Well, I think for us was finding a few other people who wanted. to be in relationship and we're willing to be committed to it, to be willing to be authentic in that relationship, which is sometimes super messy and there's a lot of diversity in that and we can hold that and actually enjoy that. Like it brings so much vitality to our friend group because we aren't all the same. And so, you know, I think I named in this story Donna's personality and how she's So she's our feisty friend and she brings that to the group and Joe's got such a huge heart. Everybody brings something unique to the group. And so just as I would think about other people, like find those people that you're drawn to and invite them to the table. And um I think it starts by showing up as the one who's willing to be brave and authentic and vulnerable and be the pursuer.
00:16:12
Speaker
and um I think you see in my story, it wasn't immediate. Like we've known these people for decades, but it's only been in the past eight years really forged in the fire that we've been able to go as deep as we've gone.
00:16:29
Speaker
and actually have the commitment we have to one another. And it does feel like a commitment. They know we are going to show up for them. And we know, without a doubt, they're going to show up for us, both in the good times and in those hard times that we talked about earlier. But it took time. It took pursuit. It took the courage to be authentic and vulnerable with each other. And we're so thankful that they share a reciprocity of willingness to meet us at that table in those ways.
00:16:58
Speaker
yeah The table is so sacred on so many levels and your table sounds stunning. It is no wonder why you would choose this story, these people, for a piece around gratitude. It sounds like you've cultivated a rich, round table. And I, I count it an honor that you would even share a glimpse of that with us. And my hope would be others would get to experience a round table and that they wouldn't settle for anything less either.
00:17:26
Speaker
Absolutely. I know it can be so discouraging when you long for a community like that, but it is so worth the pursuit. Yeah. Of course, fruit like this. Yes, yes. Thank you, Susan, for letting us have a glimpse into your places of gratitude and the round table. Thank you. You're so welcome. Thank you for being there with me. I know if you walked into that restaurant, they'd pull up a seventh chair for you, Sandia. They would love it.
00:17:55
Speaker
they were I would be there in a heartbeat. We're just happy to be miles apart. and make it happen I would love that. I look forward to that one day. Thank you. Well, I'm curious about the story that you've brought. I would love to hear it when you're ready to share it with me.
Coping with Anxiety: 'The Thankful Game'
00:18:15
Speaker
You bet. So mine is called The Thankful Game.
00:18:21
Speaker
I used to have a fear of flying like a really big fear. I have written about it previously for Red Tent Living Blog, and I've come to feel a sense of profound gratitude for experiencing healing from the fear and anxiety that came along with getting on a plane. I currently fly all the time for work in the ministry that I serve in, and I've come to love it.
00:18:45
Speaker
Now and then, I occasionally still have flights that make my belly churn and experience heightened anxious emotions with the bumps and sways of turbulence. But I found a clever coping pathway that lends to gratitude and eases the small bouts of uncomfortableness. I remember learning a long time ago that according to neuroscience, our brains cannot simultaneously feel anxiety and gratitude at the same time.
00:19:12
Speaker
When actively focusing on gratitude, the brain shifts its focus away from anxiety by engaging the prefrontal cortex, which helps regulate emotions and calm the fight or flight response triggered by anxiety. I have used this knowledge to serve me through the pockets of turbulence on flights. When I'm on a plane and feeling a sense of anxiety or fear,
00:19:37
Speaker
I connect to my flight's wifi and ask a friend to play the thankful game with me. What this is, is going back and forth and naming what each person is thankful for. It can be big or small things, but the idea is to go back and forth sharing and giving a name to what we've experienced as thankful. This brings my brain to activate and engage the prefrontal cortex and brings my body to a sense of calm.
00:20:05
Speaker
We do this back and forth as long as the other person has capacity or until I give the clear that the plane has leveled out and I'm well to end the game. Recently with the news of the first in-air aviation collision in about 14 years, I had a few moments of anxiety come up as I boarded a plane to head home from Chicago just two days after hearing the news of this tragic event. I invited my sweet friend Kate to the thankful game. And here's a little excerpt of our text chat.
00:20:36
Speaker
It starts with me. Hey Kate, I'm on a flight and just looking for some calm connection and comfort. Can we just text back a little back and forth some gratitude? The prompt is I am thankful for anything goes big or small. You name one and then I name one. Kate, I am thankful. I finished my paper even though it was five pages. Me.
00:21:00
Speaker
I am thankful for time with my Cali undies. Cali aunties. California aunties. Um, Kate. Aw, yay. I am thankful for a cozy bed to stay warm in. Me. I am thankful for my cough and cold to be almost gone. Kate. Let's hope it continues to get better. I am thankful for all the ways God is reminding me he is in control through my class. Me.
00:21:28
Speaker
Amen. Amen. This carried on for another few minutes until I felt a sense of calm. I have played this game a handful of times on planes and continue to hold gratitude for the ways of connecting at 30,000 feet above the clouds with kind souls on the ground. The thankful game is cultivated within the community and can be engaged anytime and most any places. And for that, I am grateful.
00:21:54
Speaker
Thank you so much for sharing that. You're welcome. I have never heard of the thankful game. I am so intrigued by this and also love the neuroscience that you share behind it, Sandia. It's fascinating. I had never heard that anxiety and gratitude can't exist at the same time.
00:22:15
Speaker
Yeah. From what I understand, I'm not a scientist, but what I understand is that it's activating two different parts of our brain, the anxiety side or the gratitude side. I remember hearing this a long time ago and I've kind of just kept it near. And it it to me it works. It works for me and when I get nervous or anxious like that. It's fascinating. I love your willingness to reach out to people, to instigate a game around of the thankfulness game.
00:22:44
Speaker
What do you think it is about you that will do that? like because i mean like yeah can you name what it is I can't stop smiling because I can even feel... Like, if you know me within like two seconds, you know I'm a playful spirit. Like, I just carry a playfulness. And I think I want others to play and engage with me. And there is a small part of me that's like, oh, this is so young. It feels childish, but not in a contemptful way. But in a really young, like the thankful game feels like something you play in the car with your kids.
00:23:19
Speaker
Um, and I think there's a delight that as I reach out, I, I've done so much of my life on my own, particularly before I knew the Lord. There was so much of my life I did on my own. I realized like there's more to life than that. Like I don't need to do hard things alone. I can do them in community and connection. And I think that's what lends me to reach out and say, will you join me? Hearing your name though, of how you did so much of life on your own. I am mindful there.
00:23:49
Speaker
probably ah our feelings of risk when you reach out. Absolutely, totally. Risk of will the person actually be able to show up? Will they want to play the Thinkful Game? Or yeah, will they even have capacity and be available? Total risk there. Courage you are demonstrating, but I love how it serves you so well, but also serves the person on the other end well too. I think about Kate finishing her paper and recalling all that it would do the ways they would drain you to to do a college paper. And what a gift it is to get that text from you, inviting her into play. you know A gift for you as you sit on the plane, but it's such a gift also for the person on the receiving end and whatever their day is holding to be invited to a moment of, let's practice some gratitude in a playful way.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yes, yeah, as you're saying that it's making me even think about the mirroring and like the mirror neurons of like someone who's attuning to another person even though we're not face to face I'm in a plane she's on the ground at home, and there's still this texting of like going back and forth and listening and um and caring for what the other person is saying. Like I care that she's done with that paper. The paper is exhausting. And just as she cared for the things I was grateful for as well. Yes. And it's, you're teaching me that something like a game can bring you into deeper relationship with someone. Cause I would imagine after you've played this game and you disengage your phone for the flight, you have a deeper knowing of that person than you did when you initially reached out to them.
00:25:29
Speaker
For sure, 100%. I learned probably six new things about Kate from our text conversation, things that I probably wouldn't just normally hear in a casual conversation with her. Because it's kind of like a back and forth, I would say you probably don't have a ton of time to think. And that's why I even give the parameters of big or small. It can be, I'm thankful for the sweatshirt, the cozy sweatshirt I'm wearing. It could be anything like that. But yeah, you do get to know the other person in a different way.
Strengthening Relationships through Gratitude
00:25:56
Speaker
playwa And I appreciate that you're modeling vulnerability because I would think that they know that the game is instigated because you're on a plane and feeling some insecurity or anxiety. And that's really vulnerable of you, Cynthia, to reach out and say, Hey, can you be with me in this? Yeah, very much. Which we need in community, whether we're on a plane or around a table or in person, that vulnerability to say, Hey, here's where I am. Can you meet me here?
00:26:24
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I think that this is such a lovely invitation to just be mindful that the opportunity to practice gratitude is just right there, always. I would have never thought about sitting on an airplane, being ripe with opportunity to engage gratitude. and Yeah.
00:26:44
Speaker
It's beautiful. That's one thing about, um, I think gratitude, it shifts your focus from worry, anxiety, the things that are dragging you down to a different mindset. And I appreciate you like sharing that with us. Thank you. we'll talk you something Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Is there anything else about, um, this writing this story?
00:27:06
Speaker
that like awoken something in you you had not noticed or realized about the communities of gratitude or the ways that you practice gratitude and in your life. Yeah, I think it's interesting that
00:27:20
Speaker
Like i I feel like I have this ongoing conversation with the Lord in prayer of like, you know, I'm thankful for the sunshine today and I got to take a walk or I'm thankful for a warm cup of tea, but that's just between me and the Lord. I think there's something that is significant about, and we've kind of already touched on it, but I'm even in real time thinking through how powerful powerful it is to invite others into the practice of gratitude. Um, even if it's just a short bout, even if it comes out of a little bit of anxiety, like that's okay. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be out of just the joy center. It can come out of a moment of vulnerability. And I think there's something sweet about that. And yes, vulnerable. I think it just makes me wonder how maybe this game could be played.
00:28:11
Speaker
when we're around a round table, maybe, and everyone just could go around. It makes me wonder, like, because I only play this game on a plane, so it's making me wonder what it would it look like to play this game, not above 30,000 feet, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. I love what you're naming because most often when we think about gratitude, the spiritual practice we you will see reference is the idea of keeping your gratitude journal.
00:28:38
Speaker
which feels similar to what you're saying as you walk and talk with the Lord. um And so what you're talking about and what you're naming is like the potential of bringing other people into the practice of gratitude has a very different feel to it.
00:28:53
Speaker
and has a very different, like almost reward to it because you're being known and knowing other people was such a growing depth that your gratitude journal, yes, nice practice, but boy practicing it with a living, breathing human pink being, the fruit of that is pretty stunning.
00:29:12
Speaker
yeah Well, I know our time is slowly coming to an end here, and so I would love to toss out this question to you, Susan, and then bring it on back. What are you thinking? What are you carrying into this next week from our time together today? I think a couple of things I'll be carrying is when I'm noticing anxiety rising up in me to put into practice this little Thanksgiving name that you've given me with the imagination that it might actually be the one thing that could assuage my anxiety.
00:29:44
Speaker
is to connect with another person in gratitude. I'm very excited about putting that into practice. And then I'm very grateful for the reminder of in those moments, even a small moment where I'm sitting on a plane or I'm sitting waiting for my car to be serviced or I'm sitting waiting on my mom to get ready to come visit with me. I could engage in some gratitude with the Thanksgiving Gable with somebody else just to know there's connection there and there's goodness there. What a gift those small moments actually are. So I'm thankful for you modeling that to me on the airplane. Thank you. What about you? What are you going to carry with you this week? I think there's two parts. One, not to settle for tables that are not round, like to insist. I think that there's something about like the intent of that feels compelling to me. And then I think within that, I think a little bit different. i
00:30:42
Speaker
Hearing you say how these friendships have been built over time and you've shared a lot of life, I think even the grace to remember as much as I long for a table that has six seats at it and that I wish I could do that and with six people that lived so many minutes away, I have such joy for you and what you get to experience. And I can have equally imagination of who would five other people be And where could I find a restaurant in town here that has six seats around a table? And it might not look and be the same as yours, and that is so okay. But I can have imagination of what could it look like for me to cultivate a table of gratitude with relationships, whether or not it's been a long time or not, of living life with them. It's beautiful. I can picture you and your crew gathered around the random table, starting the night with the Thanksgiving game.
00:31:38
Speaker
Absolutely. I hope so.
Podcast Credits and Online Presence
00:31:40
Speaker
Awesome. It's been such a joy to be with you. Yes, same. And I look forward to being at a table with you again soon. Maybe. Thank you. Thank you. The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Aaron Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson, and all our guests are part of the Red Tent Living community.
00:32:07
Speaker
You can find us all at redtentliving.com, as well as on Facebook and Instagram. If you love the stories shared here, we would be thrilled if you left us a review. Until next week, love to you, dear ones.