Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the second episode of the debatable discussion podcast, where we're going to tackle questions from the worlds of philosophy, history, politics, and more.
Speaker: However, today we are focusing ourselves on history and revolutions.
Speaker: So every week we'll be uploading a new episode exploring a different theme and or issue.
Speaker: Episodes like last week will only last around 25-30 minutes long and we'll explore everything from nepotism to meritocracy and free will.
Speaker: So today we're going to take a look at the past, in particular revolutions of the past and their impact on society.
Speaker: So yes, we will be discussing revolutions, whether they're the biggest force for change in history and their impact.
Speaker: However, we'll be taking a particular focus on the American, French and Russian Revolution.
Speaker: So John, you're a bit more of a historian than I am.
Speaker: So I say we start this way with you explaining the American Revolution and really how it started and why it did.
Speaker: So what do you think was the main issue then in America at the time?
Speaker: So I think there was one main issue in America, and that was effectively taxation.
Speaker: And what that stemmed into was political representation.
Speaker: So firstly, the American Revolution was a period between 1765 to 1783, which was firstly sort of hostilities and acts of resistance towards the British, and then became the War of Independence that we all famously sort of know and have heard of.
Speaker: But so the war started mainly due to a huge frustration amongst the colonialists because of taxation.
Speaker: So there were two notable taxation acts, the Stamp Act of 1765, which was heavy, which was a heavy tax really on all printed materials, which was quite a lot back then because a lot of things were printed on paper.
Speaker: And this tax had to be paid in British currency and not the colonial paper currency that they used, which was quite annoying at the time for the colonialists.
Speaker: So this act led to the Stamp Act Congress of...
Speaker: later on that decade and that sort of congress was really the first major force political sort of force against the british empire that really anywhere in the empire had seen and it really represented the main reason for the american revolution and that was their frustration at not having representation in british parliament and also their frustration of being subject to these heavy taxation acts
Speaker: Could you give us any sort of leading figures in the American Revolution?
Speaker: If there's a couple of people who everyone should know, who do you think are those?
Speaker: I mean, obviously, the first one that will spring to anyone's mind is George Washington.
Speaker: You know, he led the Continental Army against the British, became the first president.
Speaker: He's obviously the most major figure, probably.
Speaker: However, another interesting one, quite controversial figure nowadays is
Speaker: is Samuel Adams.
Speaker: He set up lots of committees and groups against the British.
Speaker: Notably, he was involved in the Boston Tea Party.
Speaker: Could you explain where that is, just in case anyone doesn't know?
Speaker: Yeah, so the Boston Tea Party was after a tea act by the British Empire to help promote the British East India Company's tea trade to the 13 colonies.
Speaker: And as the British Empire wanted to increase the volume of trade, they created this Tea Act, which would lower the tariffs on trade from the British Chiefs India Company to encourage people to buy from there.
Speaker: However, they hated it.
Speaker: They hated how Britain was forcing them to do something.
Speaker: So in 1773, they decided to revolt.
Speaker: And effectively, this was the Boston Tea Party, in which they went on to two or three ships and threw what was at the time a huge value worth of tea into the sea.
Speaker: And this infuriated the British Empire and London.
Speaker: So there's the Declaration of Independence on the 4th of July 1776, which
Speaker: Could you give us a bit more details on what that actually is?
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: So, well, firstly, as everyone will know, it's when America literally declared independence from the British Empire.
Speaker: It was as a result of the Taxation Acts, their lack of representation in politics, which they wanted more of, hence the popular phrase, which many would have heard of, taxation without representation, which was because they were so angry at not having any representation, but being subject to such heavy taxation.
Speaker: But the Declaration of Independence, it was written by Thomas Jefferson and signed by 56 delegates to the Second Continental Congress, which was sort of the provisional government just a bit before and throughout the War of Independence.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people would know a bit about the American Revolution from Hamilton, a very famous musical.
Speaker: So who was Alexander Hamilton?
Speaker: Should we know him?
Speaker: Was he an important figure in that campaign?
Speaker: Yeah, Hamilton was definitely an important figure.
Speaker: For me, Hamilton is most known for what he did slightly after the American Revolution.
Speaker: So he was a founding father, obviously, but his role as First Secretary of the Treasury under Washington, that's why he's most known.
Speaker: However, obviously, he contributed greatly to the American Revolution.
Speaker: You know, he fought in it, as seen in Hamilton.
Speaker: He was...
Speaker: a delegate to the Congress of the Confederation.
Speaker: However, what I think Hamilton should be most known for is really his role as Secretary of the Treasury and to do with the First Bank of the United States of America.
Speaker: And he fought very hard to remove the sort of national debt that they had after the War of Independence.
Speaker: So that's sort of the interesting thing about Hamilton.
Speaker: He was a very good politician, people would say, after they achieved independence.
Speaker: Yeah, I'd agree with you there.
Speaker: And also it's very interesting, we were talking about this yesterday, actually, how history is really related to itself.
Speaker: So before we move on to the French Revolution, we're saying how the Marquis de Lafayette, another Hamilton figure, appears in both wars in actual history.
Speaker: So I just found that really interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So now to the French Revolution.
Speaker: Yeah, Diane, can you explain to us a bit about the French Revolution following the American Revolution this was?
Speaker: Yeah, so the French Revolution itself basically started in 1789.
Speaker: And we know the 14th of July is the storming of the Bastille prison, still a national holiday to this day, really, in which the Bastille was this political prison.
Speaker: which on the 14th of July, the people just stormed and took control over the fall of Bastille.
Speaker: And really the French Revolution was due to the economy.
Speaker: So going back to the American Revolution, the French intervened in the American Revolution.
Speaker: Some would say successfully, you know, achieved their goal.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But in the same time, they had some very big economic losses there.
Speaker: And in order to keep up, they need to increase taxes and also get a lot of loans.
Speaker: So Louis XVI at the time thought that if he kept spending money to make the monarchy seem wealthy, he'd get more loans, which is partly true.
Speaker: But he did spend so much that he wasn't able to pay it back, had to raise taxes dramatically.
Speaker: And then the people just...
Speaker: They're not like him a single bit.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: So as you said, it's quite interesting, the link with the French Revolution, which succeeded the American Revolution, but they did help America to achieve independence from the British.
Speaker: You're a very keen philosopher, very interested in philosophy.
Speaker: What was the sort of philosophical background, would you say, of the French Revolution?
Speaker: So it's really, I think, two people there.
Speaker: Number one is from the Protestant side, because the French Revolution also kind of tackled the Catholic Church and their control, as they owned about 10-15% of the land, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker: And some of the French Protestants didn't like that, most notably Voltaire.
Speaker: So Voltaire was heavily against the Catholic Church because he was a Protestant and therefore was a big supporter of the Revolution.
Speaker: But the main father of the Revolution, the philosophical founder of the Revolution, is Jean-Jacques Rousseau, actually.
Speaker: who not only is famous for his work in the education system, but also because he's the philosophical figure of the revolution.
Speaker: As he wrote, that is, I quote here, manifestly contrary to the law of nature, that a handful of people should gorge themselves with superfluities, while the hungry multitude goes in want of necessities.
Speaker: So Rousseau here basically condemns the monarchy and Louis XVI's huge spendings and Marie Antoinette's huge spendings.
Speaker: whilst the French people were having nothing to eat, basically.
Speaker: And they were scavenging for food.
Speaker: It was a very hard time for the normal, you know, French peasant at the time.
Speaker: Oh, so can you tell us more about sort of perhaps the Jacquemart and Robespierre, and also sort of the activity, the real sort of violence that occurred in the revolution?
Speaker: Yeah, so there were two, originally there were two main parties.
Speaker: So it was La Plaine, which were centrists,
Speaker: And then there was another party which split into two factions.
Speaker: So the Girondins, who are moderates, and were led by this guy named Brousseau.
Speaker: And the Montagnards, which are probably the most famous ones, because they were the radical group led by Maximilien Robespierre.
Speaker: Now, Robespierre is basically the individual who is responsible for the reign of terror that happened in 1793.
Speaker: where 300,000 people were arrested, when around 17,000 people were executed on charges because they were royalists.
Speaker: And also, another 40,000, however this is not confirmed, may have been executed or died awaiting trial.
Speaker: So there weren't official executions, but they still happened.
Speaker: And now, 1793 as well, they sentenced Louis XVI to death, a conspiracy against public liberty and general safety.
Speaker: And on a vote, 361 to 288, voted to execute the 16.
Speaker: Which happened in the Place de la Révolution.
Speaker: Now the Place de la Concorde, very famous square in the middle of Paris.
Speaker: And Robespierre is the man responsible for this.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Now what's interesting to me in the French Revolution is that
Speaker: monarchy doesn't really end.
Speaker: Napoleon came and took power in 1804 as an emperor.
Speaker: And also another thing that I find interesting that, you know, Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, the French national motto, if I'm not wrong, was popularized by Maximilian Robespierre.
Speaker: So that's a bit of an interesting thing, in my opinion, because you have this
Speaker: man who's killed 17,000 people and around 40,000 others who still is immortalized in history really.
Speaker: And that says, you know, also talking about presentism and all those other things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So now we're going to move on to the most recent one, the Russian revolution of the 20th century.
Speaker: So John, would you like to just briefly explain
Speaker: some of the stuff regarding the Russian Revolution?
Speaker: So yes, the Russian Revolution, it's the most recent of all the revolutions we're discussing.
Speaker: However, there are some definite similarities.
Speaker: So firstly, with the French and the American, and really sort of most revolutions, it's people and parties uprising against who they view as their oppressive leaders, who are because of the harsh climate that they're in.
Speaker: So many will have heard of a few names to go through before we go through, before we talk about the revolution.
Speaker: We have the Bolsheviks led by Vladimir Lenin, who are the communists.
Speaker: Yep, the communists.
Speaker: And they're in this sort of second revolution that they have in 1917 because you have the February revolution, which happened in Petrograd, the then capital in which Nicholas VII was abdicated.
Speaker: And then you have the October revolution led by the Bolsheviks and Lenin,
Speaker: in which they did this sort of armed insurrection against the Russian provisional government.
Speaker: And, you know, after that, they had a Russian civil war against the White Army.
Speaker: And then eventually, Lenin managed to become leader of Russia.
Speaker: So can I stop you there and just do a quick summary?
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: So in February, Nicholas II, the Tsar, abdicated.
Speaker: But he wasn't killed then.
Speaker: So he was killed in the October Revolution.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: In the October Revolution, Lenin targeted both the royalists and another group of people really in charge.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So, yeah, he also was also against the Russian provisional government, which was the sort of government installed from the February Revolution.
Speaker: And really, with the Russian provisional government, little improvement was seen.
Speaker: And, you know, the causes of this revolution were because of the poor living conditions, the famines faced.
Speaker: A huge loss in people, money and prestige from both the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 to 1905 and World War I, which was quite harsh upon the Russian people.
Speaker: Huge casualties for the Russians.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it really sort of deteriorated the domestic conditions in the country and also Russia as an international force.
Speaker: That was a huge reason for why Lenin and Bolsheviks decided to revolt.
Speaker: Also, I was wanting to ask you that.
Speaker: Do you think, you know, because we've spoken about revolutions which have been generally seen positively upon, apart from this one.
Speaker: So how can a revolution also be a positive thing, I was wondering, or a negative thing?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think with revolutions...
Speaker: People do them.
Speaker: The intention behind a revolution is effectively positive.
Speaker: It's because people want to basically get out of the conditions they're living in at the moment and they want to escape their ruler to be living in effectively a better society.
Speaker: That's why a lot of revolutions we see are about economic conditions, political oppression, because these are the things which really frustrate people and make them angry at their leaders.
Speaker: And thus they say,
Speaker: They say, why don't we just revolt?
Speaker: Why don't we install someone else's leader who can get us out of the huge mess our country is in?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, what do you think about the sort of impacts of revolutions and so forth?
Speaker: I think they've really, they're the number one sort of bringer of change, if you can say that in a way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think with our revolutions, not only political ones we're talking about, you know, other types of revolutions, the agriculture revolution of 10,000 BC,
Speaker: which invented property as well.
Speaker: A revolution is really a significant time in history of change.
Speaker: That's how I define that.
Speaker: But I was talking with a friend about this, actually, a couple of days ago.
Speaker: You know who he is.
Speaker: That if you have a revolution and you're led by a charismatic leader, so Lenin, for example, you know, it's very hard to see also the negatives of the revolution.
Speaker: So I don't think any of the Bolsheviks really realize fully, okay, well, we're getting rid of
Speaker: this government, but we're going to have Lenin instead with his policies.
Speaker: They're just, okay, let's get rid of these people and let's decide what we're going to do later.
Speaker: Which I think is also very dangerous, possibly.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, that's a key thing about revolutions.
Speaker: As people are sort of trying to escape their current lives, they're very optimistic in revolutions.
Speaker: And people think by getting rid of our current leader, we're going to be able to live in a world and a society which is so much better.
Speaker: And they don't realise that, you know, being a leader of a country is obviously extremely hard.
Speaker: And it's almost inevitable that there's going to be a few messes and incidents that the country eventually gets into.
Speaker: Yeah, a few mistakes as well.
Speaker: So yeah, going back to the agricultural revolution, this is one that we haven't mentioned so far in the podcast.
Speaker: However, it's arguably probably one of the most transformative revolutions in history.
Speaker: So Diane, can you please explain a bit more about the agriculture?
Speaker: Yes, I'd say it's really the most transformative revolution ever recorded.
Speaker: So the agricultural revolution of 10,000 BC is the...
Speaker: the moment in time where property was found and people stopped living in the hunting and gathering way and developed a civilization instead.
Speaker: And what does it actually mean is that that's when trade began because before you just have people going out fishing for the family or killing a wild animal just for their family, there wasn't really any
Speaker: organized trade between people.
Speaker: But that agricultural evolution really is the founding of capitalism, you could say.
Speaker: Yeah, so it sort of created this private property which many philosophers will say has caused huge issues since.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, it's definitely, I would say, I'm a capitalist, but I would definitely say property is the cause of
Speaker: of conflict for better or for worse.
Speaker: So if we think back in recent history, I cannot name any wars that were not really based on property even.
Speaker: Even World War II, in my opinion, has a bit of a tangent there.
Speaker: Hitler wanted Russia.
Speaker: Yeah, and he wanted to expand.
Speaker: He wanted more property.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: I mean...
Speaker: Another one that comes to my head is the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker: It's sort of, as you said, like the Agricultural Revolution because it was a transformative moment.
Speaker: It was the moment in which societies and countries hugely developed scientifically and that was a big shift in the world and in people's lives just as the Agricultural Revolution was.
Speaker: Another interesting thing about revolutions is why don't we have more today?
Speaker: I mean, I think a lot are going on but
Speaker: Do you have anything to say for that?
Speaker: I mean, the last, I think, huge wave of revolutions happened in 1989 with the fall of communism.
Speaker: So, you know, that's when most countries in the Eastern Bloc had the revolution.
Speaker: Either executing their communist leaders or just getting rid of them.
Speaker: The Iron Curtain fell, you know, the Berlin Wall as well.
Speaker: So I think that was, again, another transformative time recently.
Speaker: Yeah, my parents were alive, your parents were alive.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: At that time.
Speaker: I don't think today we have so many popularized revolutions, really, because of more revolutions turning into coup d'etat, in my opinion.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, before...
Speaker: I was going to say, that is an interesting distinction between is a coup d'etat type of revolution, are they totally separate?
Speaker: That's something that sort of blurred lines slightly in between the two, aren't there?
Speaker: I'd say a revolution is when the people revolt.
Speaker: The coup d'etat is more when, for example, in Spain, General Franco, that was a coup d'etat because he was a general, he brought his army with
Speaker: With those people, yes.
Speaker: Was the army made of people?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But it was an organized group.
Speaker: It wasn't, you know, just millions or hundreds of thousands of people going on the street.
Speaker: It was an organized group who was a military organization.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, that's the amazing thing I find about revolutions.
Speaker: It's just the impact that people can directly have.
Speaker: Because going back to the Russian Revolution, with the revolution that took place in February 1917, where Nicholas II was abdicated, that was really just protests by people which led to that.
Speaker: I mean, I think the protests lasted for about eight days long, about the harsh economic conditions.
Speaker: And the people were so impactful, they literally got the army to side with them by the end.
Speaker: which is just amazing because it shows how influential, you know, protesting can be if it can topple 300 years of monarchical rule.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Do you have anything more to say I was going to say about revolutions?
Speaker: I mean, I think we've gone through them all.
Speaker: Yeah, I think we've touched on the major ones in recent history.
Speaker: Of course, we've omitted some.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's just very interesting, I feel, to look at how they're interconnected as well, going back to that point.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: Because, as you said, history is always intertwining with each other.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And perhaps finally, we could just speak on the impact of revolutions.
Speaker: And as we've mentioned with all the ones we've gone through...
Speaker: They really mark a transformative moment in a country or in a society, whether you've got the agricultural revolution, which shifted, changed the world irreversibly, or just a revolution in a country like French, American or Russian.
Speaker: It signifies a change in time and a change in ruler and also a change in sort of the country's conditions.
Speaker: And values as well, I'd say.
Speaker: and values yeah that's the amazing thing about revolutions and that's why they're such a big force for change that's what they're yeah because they really symbolize the end of an era and the starting of a new era with a different type of government perhaps a different ruler different political and economic conditions yeah so thank you everyone for listening to the second episode of the debatable discussions podcast and who are we going to have next week john
Speaker: Well, we've got a special guest coming in to talk to us about nepotism versus meritocracy.
Speaker: That will definitely be a very good episode to listen to.
Speaker: And I would encourage everyone to come back and listen to it next week.
Speaker: Thank you very much.
