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S4 Episode 20: In conversation with Douglas Carswell
45 Plays2 months ago
Today, John and Dejan are joined by Douglas Carswell. Tune in to hear them discuss issues ranging from immigration to the British Empire. Whilst not necessarily always agreeing with Douglas, his value of freedom of speech is an admirable lesson for all.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background of Douglas Carswell
00:00:00
Dejan
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. They were incredibly lucky to be joined by Douglas Carswell once again back on the podcast. Thank you, Daniel Douglas for coming.
00:00:11
Dejan
And John is going to introduce Douglas, talk about his work, about his sort of journey, really. There's been a journey, I think we could we could say that. And then we're going to get into the episode.
00:00:23
John Gartside
So yes, I'm right in saying, Douglas, that you were the MP for Clacton and an MP the British Parliament between and And
00:00:27
Douglas Carswell
Yep. Yep.
00:00:35
John Gartside
and
00:00:36
Douglas Carswell
Yep.
00:00:36
John Gartside
any parents or listeners know Douglas, I'd be right in saying that it's most likely because of the Vote Leave campaign, where you're at the forefront of the UK political scene in what I suppose being successful in achieving Brexit.
00:00:45
Dejan
Thank you.
00:00:51
Douglas Carswell
Yeah, I mean, it certainly has been a journey, literally a 4,500 mile journey. I was member parliament for Clacton for 12 years. I went into politics because I thought Britain needed to leave the European Union.
00:01:03
Douglas Carswell
And I co-founded Vote Leave, campaigned for the referendum. When we won the referendum, I then moved. I moved to the southern United States here in Mississippi.
00:01:14
Douglas Carswell
And yeah, I've been here for five years almost now. And so, yeah, been been literal journey, but also, yeah, ah journey in the sense of shifting views. So, yeah, great to be on your
Immigration and Cultural Integration Issues
00:01:27
Douglas Carswell
show. And may I say well done for doing this. I think it's really, really important that we learn, not just you, but just generally we as a society learn to disagree agreeably, I think is the I'd put it.
00:01:39
Douglas Carswell
So I hope you won't disagree with what I say, but I hope that if we do disagree, it'll be agreeable.
00:01:39
John Gartside
Definitely.
00:01:44
Dejan
I think before we sort of get into more political questions, could you just tell us why you decided leave the UK and why you chose Mississippi out of all of the 50 states?
00:01:53
Douglas Carswell
Yeah. I mean, first of all, in the House of Commons, I started to realise I was in the wrong place. um um The wrong place in terms of being in elected politics.
00:02:04
Douglas Carswell
We tend to think that the people we elect are powerful, but actually they're rather like actors in the movie business. They have to read the script that they're given. And I began to realise that if I really wanted to change the world beyond merely getting Britain out of European Union, I would need to sort of
00:02:14
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:02:23
Douglas Carswell
be involved in the writing of the scripts that politicians read from. So I was in the wrong place by being an elected politician. I wanted to work for a think tank. I also came to realize that was perhaps in the wrong place by being on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Because if, like I do, you think that freedom and liberty are the secret of our success as a species, they're what's elevated our species from mud huts to, you know, the, well,
00:02:49
Douglas Carswell
elevated some of our species from mud huts to the world we live in today, then think there's really only one country that stands above all others. That's the United States. It's where freedom and liberty and the future of freedom and liberty will be decided. So I wanted to move upstream from politics into the think tank
UK Immigration Policy Critique
00:03:05
Douglas Carswell
world. I wanted to move to America.
00:03:07
Douglas Carswell
Why Mississippi? Well, bluntly, Mississippi's been the poorest state in America for as long as anyone can remember. And it's the poorest state in America because it's the one state that has been run by the good old boy sort of socialistic cartels for years.
00:03:24
Douglas Carswell
If you can make freedom and liberty work in Mississippi, if you can apply pro-growth policies in Mississippi and make them work, you can apply them anywhere. And that was really the challenge I wanted.
00:03:34
Douglas Carswell
And very happy to tell you that Mississippi is now one of the fastest growing states in America. Last year, we saw a 6% increase in household income in Mississippi.
00:03:45
Douglas Carswell
Mississippi is booming. So yeah, pro-growth policies work. But that's why I wanted to come here to see if I could get them to work.
00:03:52
John Gartside
And diving straight into the action then, Douglas, you could say that you've received quite a lot of prominence recently, as the UK has sort of found itself almost divided over this issue of immigration.
00:03:55
Douglas Carswell
Yep.
00:04:05
Douglas Carswell
Yep.
00:04:05
John Gartside
So is the UK in an immigration crisis?
00:04:09
Douglas Carswell
We'll start off from a very macro point of view. What's the one thing worse than having an immigration problem? I would say it's to have an emigration problem. You know, we could be having this conversation ah ah Venezuela or Eritrea or some other country like that.
00:04:27
Douglas Carswell
Start off with the optimistic side. It is a good problem to have, in a sense, that you've got lots of people wanting to come and live in your country, as opposed to having lots of people wanting to leave your country. So let's start from that position.
00:04:42
Douglas Carswell
Given that we have lots and lots of people wanting to come and live in the West, the Western world, I think we've done a pretty bad job. And I think the UK has done an abominable job of being selective as to who they let in.
00:04:56
Douglas Carswell
So start from a position that it's compared to the alternative a good problem to have. But you do need a public policy that allows you to manage it. And we have been very, very, very bad in the UK, or I should say you guys have been very, very bad in the
Selective Immigration and Public Benefit Test
00:05:10
Douglas Carswell
UK at managing this.
00:05:11
John Gartside
Thank
00:05:12
Douglas Carswell
You've allowed in a lot of people who are not culturally compatible. I hear gasps of some of your listeners when I use the phrase culturally compatible, because the fundamental problem in Britain is that I think you have a sense of cultural relativism. You believe that people from different backgrounds are interchangeable and can be made into culture.
00:05:33
Douglas Carswell
Englishmen or Englishwomen or Brits. And truth is that some of them can't. So you've been, I think, remarkably bad at deciding who you allow into the country.
00:05:44
Douglas Carswell
And you are philosophically ill-equipped and therefore policy ill-equipped to tackle this huge problem. And I think as a result of this, you've had a huge number of people come into the country with low skills,
00:05:59
Douglas Carswell
who are culturally incompatible. And far from being able to choose the brightest and the best around the world, you've got some pretty low human capital now living in the UK. And I think it's going to be a big problem for you. You can either...
00:06:12
Douglas Carswell
clutch your pearls and shriek that people as crass as Carswell point this out. you can continue to allow the authorities to arrest people for pointing this out.
00:06:22
Douglas Carswell
Or you can do something about it. I would do something about it. The United States has begun to do something about it. It's begun to be quite aggressive in saying who it wants to come in and who it doesn't want to allow in.
00:06:33
Douglas Carswell
Mass deportation is normal. It's happening in America now. There's a target to remove about a million illegal migrants a year. I suspect they won't achieve that this year. They'll probably only hit about half a million.
00:06:46
Douglas Carswell
But the UK has got a tremendous problem. And it's not me who is being extreme for pointing this out. The extremists are those who think that you can carry on as you are. You can't.
00:06:59
Dejan
I think one of the big sort of things that has gathered lot of attention lately is Farage sort of disputing the indefinite leave to remain. Where do you stand on that issue?
00:07:11
Douglas Carswell
I think very clearly ah Boris wave has been a disaster. You've allowed in, since COVID, allowed in a very large number of people with very low skills. To give you an idea, just under one in 10 people living in the UK has come into the country since end of the lockdowns.
00:07:30
John Gartside
Right.
00:07:30
Douglas Carswell
10%. That is a huge number of people. That is on top of the pre-existing migration. A lot of these people had very low skills because under the negligent eye of Boris Johnson and Priti Patel and various others, the thresholds were lowered basically allow in a lot of people who don't really have much to offer. And a lot of evidence suggests are never going to be net economic contributors fiscally or culturally to the country.
00:08:03
Douglas Carswell
If you leave the so-called Boris wave in place, sooner rather than later, the rules on indefinitely to remain will kick in. And these people will be able to stay in perpetuity forever. I'm not talking about illegal immigration. I'm talking about people who've come in legally, but who are a net burden.
00:08:23
Douglas Carswell
And so I think definitely you need to suspend the rules on indefinite leave to remain. And I would go further. I think you need a public benefit test. I've written quite extensively on this. And one proposal I came up with is you need a public benefit test so you can assess people who are legally allowed in the UK and see are they net economic contributors,
00:08:45
Douglas Carswell
And if they are of working age and are a net burden, I think you should ah see that as sufficient grounds to remove them from the country. We've got to get over this idea that once someone has set foot on British soil, they somehow remain in perpetuity. shouldn't be able to. Non-citizens who are a net burden should be, by and large, you may have a few exceptions, but by and large, they should be removed.
00:09:11
Douglas Carswell
That is now the norm in the US. And I think if the Western world wishes to remain Western, it it needs to enforce that. The alternative is that you become the home to large numbers of people from low productive societies that don't contribute much living at public expense, given that about 50 percent of all social housing in London is now occupied largely by such people. I think you've got to act and you've got act pretty quickly.
Challenges within the Conservative Party
00:09:34
John Gartside
And that's an interesting argument there, Douglas, because I think the part which I definitely agree with is how you sort of said that legal immigration does encourage, would I be right in saying, legal immigration does definitely encourage people with skills, with education, with talents to come to the UK.
00:09:51
John Gartside
Do you think that should be promoted? We're seeing waves of people leave the UK. So do we perhaps need legal, do we perhaps still need legal immigration to ensure that we do have educated people?
00:10:04
Douglas Carswell
Well, I mean, illegal immigration, people coming across the English Channel in small boats.
00:10:04
John Gartside
yeah
00:10:11
Douglas Carswell
I mean, clearly, clearly that is not contributing to the economic or cultural future of the country. But illegal immigration is relatively small compared to the ah Boris wave. and And let's call it the Boris wave. I think it's really important that people understand that it's a catastrophic failure of the Cameron Boris governments in all of this.
00:10:33
Douglas Carswell
only way that we're going fix this is if the centre-right owns the mistake and rectifies it. So, you know, it's not just illegal immigration. It is the Boris wave legal migrants allowed in since the end of COVID.
00:10:48
Douglas Carswell
I mean, to put it very bluntly, the Treasury said after COVID, Minister, the way we need to achieve growth is to open the taps, allowing large numbers of cheap workers.
00:11:00
Douglas Carswell
And um um we've tested to destruction the idea that allowing in large numbers of low skilled migrants from culturally incompatible countries generates growth. It's actually reduced per capita GDP. It has not added to economic dynamism.
Free Speech and Cancel Culture
00:11:16
Douglas Carswell
On the contrary, it it's created a great burden of of welfare dependency.
00:11:22
Douglas Carswell
Your question was, is there a case for legal migration?
00:11:25
John Gartside
Yeah, for the e-crow migration, yeah. Because there are definitely some benefits. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:11:30
Douglas Carswell
I'm not. yeah I'm an immigrant myself to the United States. I'm not ideologically against all kinds of immigration. But boy, when I came to America, I had to jump through some pretty high hurdles to come here.
00:11:40
John Gartside
yeah
00:11:41
Douglas Carswell
If I was ah ah net burden on the American taxpayer, I would not be allowed to stay. And quite rightly, and the rules that were pretty robust anyway, and they're being tightened.
00:11:53
Douglas Carswell
Quite rightly, if I'm an immigrant to America, I have to be able to show that I am making a significant net fiscal contribution the way that I came in.
00:12:03
Douglas Carswell
And I think that's absolutely right and proper. Even then, I don't think it's just a case of being a fiscal contributor. There's good evidence from Denmark and the Netherlands showing that migrants from North Africa and the Muslim, largely the Muslim world, tend to be a a a net fiscal burden in those countries throughout the entirety of their working lives in those countries.
00:12:26
Douglas Carswell
It's not just about fiscal compatibility, though. It's not just about being net taxpayers. There's also questions of cultural compatibility. I would put it to you that perhaps a Ukrainian immigrant in the UK...
00:12:41
Douglas Carswell
a Hong Kong immigrant in the UK with a high level of educational attainment is going to be in the medium
Historical Narratives and Immigrant Integration
00:12:49
Douglas Carswell
to long term a more of an asset to the UK than someone from a ah less culturally compatible country.
00:12:58
Douglas Carswell
And I don't think we should shy away from having this conversation. It's not just about burden on the taxpayer. It's not just about taxes paid versus benefits claimed.
00:13:10
Douglas Carswell
I think we need to look at the totality of of the contribution and we need to be highly, highly selective. Highly selective as from which parts of the world we allow migrants, but also highly selective as to the attainment of the people.
00:13:27
Douglas Carswell
I'll give you ah ah an example. Here in America, Generally speaking, Indian migration has been a success. not always, but generally speaking, it's been very successful, although there's been a bit of pushback.
00:13:38
Douglas Carswell
And one of the reasons for that is because of the way that the system operates in America, it tends to select pretty high achieving Indians. So Americans generally have a view of Indians as being these incredibly industrious, hardworking people, because they tend to select those kind of people from India to come here.
00:13:55
Douglas Carswell
Now, if you can do that with Indian migration to America, why on earth can't the UK government do that with Indian migration to the UK too? Why can't they be selective? Why can't they select from which backgrounds, which countries, which cultures, but also within those cultures, why can't you have a system? Now, this was all meant to happen.
00:14:17
Douglas Carswell
They talked about the Boris government talked about a points-based system. But the points-based system was so debased by the civil service and the implementation of it, it became largely meaningless.
00:14:27
Douglas Carswell
So im I'm not ideologically opposed to all kinds of immigration, but immigration has got to work for the host country. It's got to work in fiscal terms. It's got to work in cultural terms.
00:14:39
Douglas Carswell
And it can't be too extensive. You've got to make sure that The numbers are not overwhelming. ah Britain is failing on all three counts. The numbers are currently overwhelming.
00:14:51
Douglas Carswell
Culturally, many of the people are coming from culturally incompatible countries. And even those who do come from culturally compatible countries, when we're not always selecting the way we should. So, ah ah you know, it's actually giving legitimate immigration a a very bad name.
00:15:05
Douglas Carswell
Mm-hmm.
00:15:07
Dejan
Yeah, I think I just want have two questions there. And the first one is this sort of selectiveness. I do understand your point fully about sort of having not having the right to stay forever if you're a burden on society fiscally.
00:15:24
Douglas Carswell
Mm-hmm.
00:15:25
Dejan
But I do want to make the point that you do have ah ah some immigrants who are assets that will just be sort of turned away maybe. I mean, I'm an immigrant to the UK. I've achieved great grades at GCSE, on track to get free stars at A-level.
00:15:38
Douglas Carswell
Mm-hmm.
00:15:41
Dejan
And it is a a sort of issue because it's a bit like, well, get, you know, for example, I get it that you want highly selective people. But even if you are one of those individuals, you do not feel really integrated in society because of that sort of barrier of having to apply for a visa every two years and having to sort of go through the process again, pay that fee again, and sort of wait for your acceptance fee. And you can't just really get on with your work because you're always depending on that process.
00:16:13
Douglas Carswell
ah ah you know, as one immigrant talking to another immigrant, one thing that I find particularly galling is when I have to, as I've had to reapply for various processes, pay legal fees, fill in documents, a very long time for a very bureaucratic, unresponsive system to respond.
00:16:32
Douglas Carswell
And all that time, I do that in the knowledge that there are people who, until very recently, just walked into America and got everything they wanted the drop of a hat. I mean, I suspect that there've been times, and I may be putting words in your mouth, but I suspect there've been times when As someone who has come to the UK from abroad, you slightly wonder why some people can turn up in a dinghy and not have to do all of those laborious, difficult, time-consuming, costly things that you have to do.
00:17:03
Douglas Carswell
So, I mean, I do think that, you know, you have a two-tier immigration system. You have a bureaucratic system of immigration for people who play by the rules. And then you've got a ah different system that doesn't seem to apply those rules to people who don't even pretend to abide by them.
00:17:22
Douglas Carswell
You know, stop and ask yourself a question. You I'm sure that if you didn't have your visa, I'm sure that if you didn't fill in those forms and comply with the paperwork, I'm sure you would have a very uncomfortable time.
00:17:33
Douglas Carswell
You would have sleepless nights.
00:17:33
Dejan
Yeah.
00:17:35
Douglas Carswell
But how can it be that someone who just turns up here, makes no attempt to play by the rules, gets put up in a four five star hotel and the chances of them being removed are nil. It's an insane system. The system is like so many things in Britain.
00:17:50
Douglas Carswell
It targets the people who play by the rules because... They can be targeted, but it doesn't apply those rules to people who stick two fingers up at them.
00:18:01
Douglas Carswell
And I think that is deeply, deeply unfair. As I said, I think it gives immigration a ah ah very bad name. It's easy for people to sort tut-tut and take the moral high ground here and say, well, you know, what about this immigrant I know? contributes and, you know... yeah yeah There are people like myself living in America who make every effort to to integrate.
00:18:23
Douglas Carswell
I don't sound like an American. I think I'm ever going to sound like American.
00:18:25
Dejan
them.
00:18:27
Douglas Carswell
But I make a point of of making sure that my daughter knows the social norms in America and is is fully integrated in America. And i do so willingly and happily. and No one celebrates Thanksgiving in America more enthusiastically than my household.
00:18:44
Douglas Carswell
But if only that was the norm for everyone. And the truth is, it's not the norm for everyone. There are a large number of people who've been living in the UK for many, many years, some of them second, third generation, who don't speak English and who certainly don't share the secular Western values that are the norm. And we have to address this.
00:19:04
Douglas Carswell
Is it right that you have large numbers of people coming into the country who basically don't play along with the Western norms about tolerance, about the role of women, about ah ah what you and might call liberal values. America, you probably wouldn't call it liberal values. You'd probably call them American values, but Western values. We have to be prepared to talk about this because Not every person coming into the UK or America plays by the rules that you and I do. And, know, it does no one any good if we pretend that this isn't happening. It it happening.
00:19:40
Dejan
Do you not think though that there is a sort of fault in that integration issue, which I I i do agree is an issue in some cases. Do you not see that?
00:19:50
Dejan
I I i would argue maybe there's sort of a
00:19:53
Douglas Carswell
don't quite follow. How do you mean?
00:19:55
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:55
Dejan
is government and a state and a sort of society that isn't really looking to integrate those people who have come from abroad
00:20:03
Douglas Carswell
it's very difficult to integrate into a society if that society teaches people in that society that the host country is somehow flawed.
00:20:13
Dejan
No, I mean the opposite way around.
00:20:15
Dejan
I mean, for example, those people who you said are unfiltered in British society, do you not think they would have been more easily integrated if, for example, there would have been a better outlook on immigration and more British people would have actually sort reached out and...
00:20:30
Douglas Carswell
No, I think Britain, generally speaking, has bent over backwards to accommodate people and make them feel comfortable and at home.
00:20:39
Douglas Carswell
I think Britain is probably one of the best countries in the world to be non-Britain in terms of its willingness to be tolerant.
00:20:46
Dejan
Yeah.
00:20:48
Douglas Carswell
I think part of the problem has been that the woke left that has captured many of our public institutions and certainly the education system has perpetuated the idea that there is something suspect about Britain's past, that Britain's past is defined by imperialism and racism and slavery.
00:21:07
Douglas Carswell
You see an even more extreme version of this, um you saw until very recently in America, an even more extreme version of this. How can a first or second generation person coming to the UK America from outside the West join in with British or American society, if the lesson they're getting at school is that somehow the history of that country is dominated by slavery and racism. You need to have a narrative about the country
00:21:37
Douglas Carswell
is historically accurate and also uplifting and inspiring and makes you want to be part of Team America or Team UK. If you perpetuate leftist ideology about the history of Britain and America, it creates far harder for people to integrate.
00:21:56
Douglas Carswell
But I don't, I mean, I think generally speaking, the UK has been remarkably generous to outsiders coming in. And the recent upsurge in concern about immigration, think, generally speaking, it's been legitimate. A lot of the anger has actually been targeted at the government and the authorities for not getting a grip.
00:22:17
Douglas Carswell
Very little animus has been, as far as I can see, directed at individual immigrants themselves. You know, Britain is not fundamentally a racist country.
00:22:28
Douglas Carswell
The idea that somehow immigration isn't going well because of white racism, absolute nonsense. Britain has been incredibly welcoming. I think the feeling is legitimate that somehow that welcome has been taken advantage of. I think that is the issue.
00:22:43
Douglas Carswell
And I think is quite legitimate for people in the UK to say that they feel they've been taken advantage of because they have.
00:22:50
John Gartside
And I think you mentioned a really interesting idea there, Douglas, and it's actually something that me and Diane have explored. And it's how almost historical narratives and thoughts can be weaponised, weaponised for a political cause, or as you said there, this sort of how imperialism has sort of re-emerged in Britain to sort of suit a political narrative.
00:23:10
John Gartside
And absolutely.
00:23:11
Douglas Carswell
Is it interesting how the further we get away from the British Empire as a historic reality, the more people feel aggrieved by the so-called wrongs of imperialism. I mean, I would say that, you like all countries, British history has had its good moments and its bad moments. But overall, relatively speaking, Britain's role in the world as a great power was a remarkably benevolent and benign one.
00:23:38
Douglas Carswell
were far better off being colonised by the British in Africa than by the Belgians. You are generally speaking, I think, probably better off in British India than in Mergel India.
00:23:51
Douglas Carswell
I suspect that, although it's fashionable to forget this, the enormous effort that Britain made, it's been a ah really significant chunk actually of public spending in the 19th century, was allocated by British politicians to fighting the slave trade.
00:24:08
Douglas Carswell
And yes, you could point out that you were British people involved in the slave trade. Of course there were. It was the norm throughout most of human history.
00:24:18
Douglas Carswell
Find me a society in recorded history that didn't have slavery until early modern Europe and Western civilisation started. started to apply the essentially Christian idea that each person is created in the image of God and therefore of intrinsic individual worth.
00:24:38
Douglas Carswell
It's essentially a Western Christian, I would say, British ethic led to the abolition of the slave trade and subsequently slavery.
00:24:47
Douglas Carswell
I think it's rather absurd for people to criticize Britain's role in the slave trade and in slavery when actually Britain was the first country in human history to use its strength to stamp out the slave trade.
00:25:02
Douglas Carswell
So are always going to be examples you can point to in Britain's past where Britain behaved dishonorably and aggressively. But compared to what?
00:25:12
Douglas Carswell
compared to when the Ottomans were a great power, compared to when the Russians were a great power. I think overall, the historic ledger, the moral ledger is pretty strongly in Britain's favor.
00:25:24
John Gartside
And, right.
00:25:24
Douglas Carswell
The problem is that that is not taught. That is not taught. And what I think happened in the UK is often Britain has imported the American idea of historic injustice.
00:25:38
Douglas Carswell
rather absurdly. I mean, Britain didn't have a civil rights issue in the 1960s. Britain didn't have slavery 150 years ago like um southern United States. Yet culturally, a lot of the American ah interpretation of the past has been sort of of imported into the UK.
00:25:53
Douglas Carswell
saw this during the Black Lives Matter protests where essentially British crowds adopted from social media American civil rights protest chants.
00:26:02
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:26:05
Douglas Carswell
It's rather ludicrous. But you in a long winded way, I'm saying that Britain's past is something that Britain can be proud of. the balance, the moral balance is strongly positive.
00:26:14
Douglas Carswell
Britain has been a force for good in the world.
00:26:17
John Gartside
And sort of, yeah, and perhaps moving to sort of politics, Douglas, you've notably been a member of the Conservative Party and then a member of UKIP where you worked with Nigel Farage. So could say that you've had a ah ah fairly encompassing career on the right wing of British politics.
00:26:35
John Gartside
What is your view on this dilemma that's facing the Conservative Party? Are they toast and is reform on on rise perhaps?
00:26:44
Douglas Carswell
I mean, I don't really have a dog in the fight. lot of my friends are conservatives. Some of my friends made the journey that I made 10 years ago when I left the Conservative Party and I joined UKIP, the precursor to reform.
00:26:58
Douglas Carswell
I have to say, I do think Nigel has been remarkably lucky in his enemies. I mean, if you stop and think about all the events that had to happen since June 2016, when the that Vote Vote Leave campaign had won the Brexit referendum, Boris and Michael Johnson had been gifted the leadership of that campaign.
00:27:17
Douglas Carswell
If you stop and think about all the all the follies and the mistakes that had to be made by the official Conservative Party from that moment on to get us to where we are today. Nigel has been remarkably lucky.
00:27:30
Douglas Carswell
I mean, I don't think actually there were times when Nigel wanted what he's got. There were times when I know for a fact he was humming and hawing as to whether to stand in my old seat in Clacton. There were times when he thought he might win in Clacton, but he didn't expect to win other seats in other parts of the country.
00:27:44
Dejan
Thank you.
00:27:48
Douglas Carswell
even having won a handful of seats, I think until quite recently, there were times when he thought he might at best be a sort of Lib Dem type party on the fringes of British politics, able to occasionally tilt the balance.
00:28:00
Douglas Carswell
So, you know, I think, you know, politics is funny. It has a weird way, if you stick to principles like Nigel has, of developing in ways that seem improbable.
00:28:11
Douglas Carswell
But, you know, i I don't really know what the future is. What I would hate to see is the British electoral system penalise the right, because although we overall get a combined share of reform and conservative that's, you know, stratospherically high, the two parties are so divided that that keeps Labour in power.
00:28:34
Douglas Carswell
So you the electoral arithmetic, I think, strongly suggests there needs to be some kind of detente between reform and and Conservatives. I don't think that can probably happen under Kemi Badendock.
00:28:47
Douglas Carswell
think it may happen under her successor, Robert Jenrick. But, you know, I think, you know, let's wait and see. It's not impossible that in a year or two's time, it may be Robert Jenrick on 30 something percent and Nigel Farage on 20 something percent.
00:29:03
Douglas Carswell
But at some point, I think the two sides will need to sit down and figure out some kind of non-aggression pact.
00:29:11
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:29:11
Douglas Carswell
The disagreement between the two parties is remarkably small. There'll be a few areas of disagreement, but you as happens in politics, a lot of the clash is to do with the vibe.
00:29:23
Douglas Carswell
Reform is more populist. The tone of reform is a little different. And personality, a lot of it has to do with personality. But in terms of what they want for their country, I think there should be a deal.
00:29:39
Dejan
I think another big definitely we've interviewed people from sort of, from the left, from the center, from the right.
00:29:46
Dejan
We don't really care. Frank, I think that's a sort of healthy thing to have that discussion.
00:29:52
Douglas Carswell
Well done you. It's really important.
00:29:54
Dejan
what sort of the situation with free speech is not just in the UK, but where you're living now and in the U S
00:30:02
Douglas Carswell
The older I get, the more of a free speech absolutist I become. um um i i I get to the stage in life where I think, do you know what?
00:30:12
Douglas Carswell
If people want to say something, so long as it's not direct incitement, And the United States, because of the Supreme Court, has a very clear definition of incitement. So long as you're not directly inciting people and intentionally inciting people to go and attack someone or attack their property, so long as there's not direct incitement, I generally think you should be able to say pretty much what you want.
00:30:36
Douglas Carswell
Now, it could be that um some things that you and I would find incredibly disagreeable. that's the price you pay for living in a free society. um be allowed to be obnoxious.
00:30:49
Douglas Carswell
People should be allowed to be a jerk. Now, when people say things that you and I find are obnoxious, or when people say things that are crass, You and I have a right to tell those people that they're idiots. You and have a right, if we run a private company, to not hire them or to sack them. You and I have a right to um right to um socially ostracize them. That is all good and fine.
00:31:12
Douglas Carswell
But the state, the British state or the American state, I don't think has a right to sanction people for opinions opinions in unless they're actually and very specifically inciting violence or harm to people.
00:31:27
Douglas Carswell
I think the problem in Britain is that you've got a lot of laws like um um the Public Order Act ah in Act ah in the 1980s and like bits of legislation hate crime.
00:31:39
Douglas Carswell
Now, the laws themselves haven't changed that recently. But what has changed is you've got a generation of police chiefs coming up through the College of Policing who have somehow got it into their heads that a crime has been committed if a person with what you might call um protected characteristics um feels offended.
00:32:03
Douglas Carswell
And so you end up with this ludicrous situation where people are arrested for saying things that are crass. People are arrested for saying things that are perhaps facetious.
00:32:16
Douglas Carswell
But in a free society, you have a right to be crass. You have a right to be facetious. You have a right to make jokes that aren't funny and obnoxious and offensive. It shouldn't be for the state to sanction people for that.
00:32:28
Douglas Carswell
So i think the problem in Britain is that you um police chiefs that have become essentially a law unto themselves.
00:32:32
John Gartside
I...
00:32:37
Douglas Carswell
In America, although there is pressure to...
00:32:43
Douglas Carswell
sanction people for ah what for ah what they say. The left did this for years, at cancel this for years, at cancel culture. The left was very good at canceling people and frankly wrecking people's lives for the occasional injudicious thing they may have said.
00:32:56
Douglas Carswell
I feel that the right in America may now be be ah beginning to do this.
00:33:01
Douglas Carswell
There was but a case recently in Mississippi where
00:33:02
John Gartside
Yeah, we agree, I think. Yeah.
00:33:08
Douglas Carswell
administrator or an official or someone, I can't remember the details, in a public university retweeted something. And they shouldn't have retweeted it. And the thing that was retweeted was obnoxious and silly. But I don't think their life should be ruined because of it. By the way, I think a couple of things we need as individuals.
00:33:24
Douglas Carswell
I think, number one, we need a sense of forgiveness. um You need to be willing to say that sometimes people... can be a jerk without being a jerk, if you know what I mean. They do and say something in the heat of the moment that they shouldn't have done and said, and you should be forgiving of that.
00:33:41
Douglas Carswell
And the second thing is, forgive people who say things that you disagree with. Don't be indignant. Don't allow your indignation to ruin their lives. It's wrong. it's I wouldn't want to live in a society where Progressives who retweeted foolish things online found their their lives ruined.
00:34:01
Douglas Carswell
So quite apart from the government not sanctioning people for opinions, as individuals, I think we should be a lot more forgiving.
00:34:07
Dejan
Thank you.
00:34:12
John Gartside
And I think that's a very nice message to finish on. And it's been a really good discussion, actually. And I think me and Diane, mean, perhaps considering immigration, there's many places where we disagree with you.
00:34:16
Douglas Carswell
Wonderful.
00:34:23
John Gartside
But going back to your final message, it's about entertaining opinions. And yeah, even if you disagree with them, as we said, in some places, it's about entertaining that opinion, which which we need to preserve, perhaps.
00:34:36
John Gartside
So thank you for coming on podcast today, though.
00:34:38
Douglas Carswell
Thank you for inviting me and well done for what you're doing. I think it's very worthwhile. All the best.
00:34:43
Dejan
Yeah. Thank you very much. See you next week.
00:34:45
Douglas Carswell
Cheerio. Thanks. Bye.