Transcript
Dejan: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today we are not joined by any guests. However, we will be discussing the latest updates in UK politics.
John Gartside: So yes, today do join us for a very exciting episode. Why? Because we're going to be discussing some of the recent exciting and, well, rather unusual issues that we've encountered in UK politics recently.
John Gartside: The first one, which I think has probably surprised everyone. is the resignation of Angela Rayner, someone who is deputy prime minister prior to her resignation was actually becoming quite popular.
John Gartside: So Diane, can you please tell our listeners or rather remind them what has happened with Angela Rayner?
Dejan: Well, yes. Frankly, I'm sure what has happened well, I think is that a lot of sort of the political and media side of the UK decided to jump in on this issue and turn into a huge, huge scandal, which think was a bit unwarranted.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: but the sort of original cause of this is Angela Rina bought flat or a house anyway she brought the property and didn't pay the full tax on that didn't pay about 40 000 pounds worth of tax um after that came out you know a lot of people jumped in including Nigel Farage including other people but what's been done has been done so Angela Rina was think forced to resign think from her role both as deputy prime minister and housing secretary which is bit ironic thinking that her problem had to do with a house but basically she paid the incorrect stamp duty for land tax that's that's it
John Gartside: Thank you.
John Gartside: Yes, so exactly that. And she breached the ministerial code. She did receive legal advice. And I think, in fact, she was told to receive further advice because of her status as the deputy prime minister.
John Gartside: However, she clearly did not take that. And she underpaid by £40,000.
John Gartside: You mentioned there that she was forced to resign and I think that was the sort of inevitable conclusion of the affair and she had to, especially in light of her having called for Tory politicians in the past to resign over their making mistakes in their taxation affairs.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: A notable one was Nadeem Zahawi, who did the sort COVID vaccine rollouts under Boris Johnson. She was at the forefront of saying he had to resign her taxation affairs.
John Gartside: Something which I think is harsh because people do genuinely make mistakes. I think she made a genuine mistake. And I think many people across the political spectrum in the past have made similar mistakes when it comes to tax.
John Gartside: However, if she's saying that other politicians need to resign, if they encounter those issues, she has to as well.
Dejan: I agree.
John Gartside: yeah Yeah.
Dejan: I think it's just an issue of fairness.
Dejan: You can't be preaching mass resignations when you yourself don't follow the rules.
John Gartside: And I think maybe some say it sort of signals something quite dismal about British politics in the sense that such a small mistake can end a career like Rainer, who she was becoming very popular. She had a large sort of connection, it seemed with large parts of the electorate.
John Gartside: But politicians are in the limelight. They are public popular figures. Therefore, they do need to act correctly. And they really, it's inevitable that mistakes happen, but they should try and minimise these. And I think in her case, there probably was room to.
Dejan: Yeah, i i agree. I think something that surprised me, though, was that Mr. Farage, who the listeners of the podcast now not a a big fan of at all, has been making quite a big deal about this.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: He says he hasn't, but I mean, he's made a couple of statements, couple of calls for resignations. Was he himself on his house in Clacton, which is not his house, has decided to sort of frankly, evade, not evade, but avoid the tax code by having his partner buy the house so that he should not have to pay that second home stamp duty.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: Again, something the vicinity of £50,000.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: No,
John Gartside: I mean, that is an illegal, though. Yeah, that was an illegal avoidance. Not illegal.
Dejan: no, no, it wasn't illegal, but it was pretty much the same...
John Gartside: Yeah, it's playing around.
Dejan: From a moral standpoint, I don't see much of a difference between what he has done and what Reina has done.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: Frankly, I think Angela Reina maybe is even less than the wrong because I genuinely think she made a mistake.
Dejan: Nigel Farage definitely did not make a mistake. And this actually brings us into our next topic, which is the latest reform conference.
Dejan: Going all over social media, we've seen clips of sort of Lincolnshire mayor singing I'm an insomniac
John Gartside: Oh
Dejan: live on stage. At the end, the British anthem started with God Save the Queen and ended with God Save the King traditional reform fashion.
Dejan: A lot of other sort of speeches. But what was most worrying to me was the fact that you had these interviews at the Reform Conference with 12-year-olds, 16-year-olds, 15-year-olds.
Dejan: And when they were asked why they're here, they did speak. the same propaganda that is being fed, such as reform is the only party that cares for working British people.
Dejan: We won't have a future. Schools are not teaching about maths. They're teaching about LGBTQ agendas. I mean, John, we're in school. When's the last time you were taught about an LGBTQ agenda?
John Gartside: Yeah, that's very, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
Dejan: It's very worrying.
Dejan: And that question for me is why are so many people either going to the left and choosing Jeremy Corbyn to the far left or going to the far right to choosing Nigel Vtaraj? I find that there's a lack of people who are sort in the center anymore, center left, center right, whatever you prescribe there, but sort of in the center. Why are people opting for these radical parties?
John Gartside: I mean, firstly, I'll say that to sort of address your previous claim about Farage bringing up Rayner, if I was Farage, I think I'd do the same. And I don't blame him because I think Rayner's resignation is very symbolic of the sort of crisis that gets government in.
John Gartside: And in a way of how it has sort of been a bit shambolic so far from Sakiya. You know, he seemed to annoy many of the people that voted him It's been scandals from the start, thinking of Lord Waheed Ali.
John Gartside: So I think... I mean, it harsh for him to talk a lot about it? Yes. But it is symbolic of something very interesting and unfortunate for Kia's Labour government.
John Gartside: But going back to your question, I think, firstly, young people obviously have always been on the more radical side of politics.
Dejan: Thank you.
John Gartside: sort of whenever you read the news and you've got a 60-year-old journalist recounting about their political life journey, they always start out some sort of wacky communist, or in many cases, or as, don't know, some wacky member of the far right.
John Gartside: I think young people are more... are more... are perhaps more inclined to the extremes of politics. However, I think it's coming to the situation that, let's say, not the ordinary person, but a large majority of people in the UK are moving to Farage simply because they're disappointed by Labour.
Dejan: Yeah.
John Gartside: been they were previously frustrated by a poor 14 years of Tory government. Farage is excelling at the moment, whether you like him or not.
John Gartside: i mean, I don't like him the most in the sense that think he'd be not very good when he's in government. But he's he's always going to profit off other parties not doing well.
John Gartside: And that sort of seemed to be the case for a while UK politics, as I said. You know, lots of, Raina was very popular. She was sort of seen this working class hero, working class hero who did own several properties, let that be.
John Gartside: But nevertheless, you're sort of seen as this working class hero who represented significant portion of the Labour Party. They've now lost that representation, or at least for the time being, until a new deputy leader is elected.
John Gartside: So it's... So it sort of opens up the door to reform again, is interesting. What do you think about all this day at? Yeah.
Dejan: I mean, want to ask you another question, which is why are people going to reform and not to deliver them instead?
John Gartside: Yeah, and that is a good question, but I think why reform and not the Lib Dems? Firstly, the Lib Dems attracts a very different kind of voter to reform. Reforms, they're far more popular amongst, like said, working class than the Lib Dems. Why? Because the Lib Dems are seen as a sort of liberal party, which is fairly exclusive to the Lib Dems.
John Gartside: to basically the south of England, which it is. If you look at where Lib Dem constituencies are, there's a theme, one could say. They're a liberal party for the home counties, many find.
John Gartside: I think also there's perhaps a case to say Farage's messaging is... stronger than the Lib Dems. I think Sered Davy is quite a good, he's quite good at social media, but I think Faraj, sort of, whether you like him or not, you can recognise that he's in his own league, Faraj, when it comes to a political orator, being a speaker.
John Gartside: He excels at public media, anything to do with sort of communications. ah But I'm back to the Lib Dems.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: I think reform's a very different party to the Lib Dems in the sense that the Lib Dems do have an image which is sort of perhaps more left-wing, whereas people at the UK seem to be quite right-wing socially at the moment.
Dejan: I find for us to be more left-wing than any of these other parties.
John Gartside: In what sense? I mean, because i'd say quite right-wing.
Dejan: Well,
John Gartside: yeah
Dejan: I think, I think he plans a government of sort of quite heavy government intervention, similar to Trump's MAGA. I don't think that, I don't think there's anything that is sort of right wing about him, apart from this sort of label that he has been put on by, society. I mean, yes, you can say he's a nationalist. Yes.
Dejan: But don't think from an economic perspective, I don't think there's anything right wing about Farage or reform.
John Gartside: Oh yeah, I agree in that sense. Economically, he's, he's you know, Matt Sinclair said, and I agree Matt Sinclair, he's sort of in fantasy land.
Dejan: Yeah.
John Gartside: He agreed to things that the left wing, he wants tax cuts, but then he wants more, he wants more sort of welfare and wealth. more welfare and benefits, a left-wing idea, he's totally all over the place. But I think he's right-wing and in fact, very right-wing when it comes to social issues. And that is where he'll benefit.
John Gartside: Immigration is one. If you look at why are so many people voting for reform at the moment, the biggest issue that comes up is immigration. this immigration issue has seemed to sort of seize a huge part of the British population.
John Gartside: read somewhere that the middle class in Britain has become radicalised.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: And I think there is an element of truth in that. You see it in Epping, these protests. You see it... I mean, I think in Canary Wharf, there have been huge protests. It's across the country.
John Gartside: Immigration, slightly bizarrely in my eyes, has become the forefront issue. I think it's slightly ridiculous because be honest, I think it's totally ridiculous protesting.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: I think, what do they expect us? You know, we should house them. You know, don't understand what these people want us to do elsewhere with immigrants.
John Gartside: I think they have a right to have accommodation. and So even in the hotels, don't see what the issue is with that.
Dejan: Yeah.
John Gartside: I can understand that perhaps there needs to be a greater police presence if people are really concerned with, ah ah let's say, the attack. The attack on the 14-year-old girl who fjord the protests in Epping.
John Gartside: I can understand how that works.
Dejan: But again, again, think that is just outrageous.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: Because if we look, I think if we look statistically now at 100 rapes in the UK...
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: 96 of those would be done by sort of white British born people.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: Statistically speaking, well, not 96 because Britain's top black and sort of percentages, but an overwhelming majority, let's say 75% will be done by white British born people.
John Gartside: Yeah. but
Dejan: I mean, should we have more police in sort of the whitest areas of Surrey? Should we have that? Because statistically speaking, they're more likely to be rapists.
John Gartside: Is it though, actually?
Dejan: I mean, I think that's just outrageous. The fact that you need more police because one attack happened. And then say, oh, because this guy's an idiot. Everyone coming and seeking asylum is going through the same thing. I think that's just, that just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
John Gartside: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think over-exaggerated protests.
John Gartside: And I think, and I mean, you read things about, I saw a really good video yesterday by Dr. Tessa Dunlop, famous historian and actually famous.
John Gartside: sorry sorry I saw a really good video yesterday by Dr. Tessa Dunlop, who's actually a very prominent Romanian historian. And she was saying that our migration crisis is not a crisis, and that is true.
John Gartside: Or rather, our immigration crisis is not a crisis.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: There are countries with exponentially higher ah ah rates and higher numbers of immigration and illegal immigrants seeking asylum. Therefore, that just shows how this issue is exaggerated.
John Gartside: What do you think about this, Diane? Do you think these protests are here to stay and become sort of continual issue and theme of British politics? Or do you think this is sort of a phase of British society?
Dejan: mean,
Dejan: I do think they had to stay, unfortunately. I don't think they should stay because Again, I find them slightly
Dejan: obsolete. I don't really see their point. I don't see again. I mean, you know, you've got all these people now, social media being human rights experts, well, you know, sorry, but what do you want to do?
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: You know, ah people should have access to ah ah doctor.
John Gartside: Yeah.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: People should have a place to stay and people should have something to eat.
John Gartside: yeah
Dejan: The fact that people are not allowed to work because they are not until their claims are processed, they are not allowed to work.
Dejan: I think that's an issue.
Dejan: think that could be, you know, that could be over, over, over done something that Tony Blair brought in. But again, i just, I just find it a bit difficult to imagine what the outcome would be of anything else. I mean, without immigration, this is... It's the third time already.
John Gartside: say yeah yeah yeah i mean that's obviously a fundamental difference though between legal and illegal immigration but it's yeah it's a relevant point yeah
Dejan: 55 to 60% of the NHS would be gone. mean, I don't think anyone wants that.
Dejan: Well, yeah, but some people that illegal immigrants... and are running from conflict areas do end up working in the NHS and contributing there and in other sectors.
John Gartside: yeah in end it's
Dejan: So...
John Gartside: yeah yeah Yeah, I see that. And I think, you know, this is a phrase that's sort of been that people dislike, and I don't know why. And it's that countries are sort of built on immigration.
John Gartside: And I think that's true. Many countries, Britain, for example, the United States, they are countries whose societies have been shaped by immigration.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: And I think and that's not a bad thing. Rather, it sort of makes us who we are today.
John Gartside: So perhaps for our last question, Diane, we can mention Sakia Starmer's perhaps meteoric cabinet shuffle.
John Gartside: In the last few days, we have seen him make some really interesting decisions in his cabinet. And in his eyes, perhaps just further refine it and perfect it to sort of equip him with the challenges which he's facing, whether that comes from reform or internally in his own party.
John Gartside: So can you perhaps run us through a few of these changes? And also, what do you think the consequences of these will be?
Dejan: Yeah, so I think most, permanently David Lammy has been promoted to deputy prime minister now.
John Gartside: Yeah.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: Furthermore, I'm just trying to find every single one. Anna Turley has been appointed as minister, but without any portfolio.
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: Alex Norris will be in the Home Office.
Dejan: Sir Chris Bryant will be the Department of Business and Trade. Luke Pollard is in the Ministry of Defence. Georgia Golden Department for for Education. Ellie Reeves will be Solicitor General.
Dejan: Lucy Rigby will be the Economic Secretary to the Treasury.
Dejan: Yvette Cooper is now foreign secretary.
John Gartside: That's big one.
Dejan: Again, a big move moving from the home office to the foreign secretary. I mean, a big move. Yes. Not a huge one because the home office still is a huge institution.
John Gartside: Big problem.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: I mean, a few others, Pat McFadden in Work and Pensions now, and also, Darren Jones, the Duchy of Lancaster?
Dejan: I think
John Gartside: And I saw a rather interesting commentary on that, because those two have been previously referred to as the Today Programme Ministers, which is a sort of current affairs radio programme in the UK.
Dejan: I'm pretty sure yes.
John Gartside: primarily because they're a steady and trusted pair of hands. So I think Key has clearly brought them closer to him, signaling his trust for them.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: And also David Lammy is a really interesting one as well. Him being promoted to Deputy Prime Minister is a sort of sign of reward, many are saying, for his work overseas.
John Gartside: Notably, we saw him entertain J.D. Vaughan in the Cotswolds and across London over the summer. And I think that shows that David Lammy's clearly very much favored by Sakhir, and he has also impressed on the world stage.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: impressing Vance, he's probably not the easiest individual to, you sort of have to do a lot of pleasing him and Trump.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: But yeah, he's managed to to make his way through and to be promoted at the demise of Angela Rayner, who has been demoted to the back benches.
John Gartside: And I think probably this will be the end, at least for the meantime of her political career.
Dejan: Yes. didn't see her coming back, to be honest. i I find it very difficult for her to come back after this. mean, never say never, but it was a big scandal and one that wasn't perhaps the easiest to put down under the plug because it wasn't something such as
John Gartside: Yeah.
Dejan: know, she's had an affair or something like that, which you saying, okay, it happens.
Dejan: Illegally not paying enough, enough taxes on a property, especially when you've, when you sort of preach about that day in and day out, I think is very difficult to come back from.
John Gartside: Yeah. And well, railing this downfall perhaps is symbolic of what is a rather at the moment disastrous Labour government for many. Yes.
Dejan: Yes.
John Gartside: Anyway, thank you for listening and we hope you've enjoyed the episode. We've tried to provide a bit more commentary and our opinions to some of the most pressing and forefront issues that and have appeared on the headlines in the past few weeks.
Dejan: Thank you very much and see you next week when we have huge, huge episode.
John Gartside: Yes, do tune in that.
