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S4 Episode 18: Rayner’s resignation and the Reform Party Conference
31 Plays3 months ago
Today John and Dejan are discussing the recent resignation of Deputy PM Angela Rayner, and the Reform Party UK conference. Tune in to hear them discuss and analyse these two monumental political events. Please follow the podcast where ever you listen, and rate us 5 stars.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Focus on UK Politics
00:00:01
Dejan
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today we are not joined by any guests. However, we will be discussing the latest updates in UK politics.
00:00:14
John Gartside
So yes, today do join us for a very exciting episode. Why? Because we're going to be discussing some of the recent exciting and, well, rather unusual issues that we've encountered in UK politics recently.
Angela Rayner's Resignation and Tax Scandal
00:00:30
John Gartside
The first one, which I think has probably surprised everyone. is the resignation of Angela Rayner, someone who is deputy prime minister prior to her resignation was actually becoming quite popular.
00:00:43
John Gartside
So Diane, can you please tell our listeners or rather remind them what has happened with Angela Rayner?
00:00:50
Dejan
Well, yes. Frankly, I'm sure what has happened well, I think is that a lot of sort of the political and media side of the UK decided to jump in on this issue and turn into a huge, huge scandal, which think was a bit unwarranted.
00:01:06
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:01:12
Dejan
but the sort of original cause of this is Angela Rina bought flat or a house anyway she brought the property and didn't pay the full tax on that didn't pay about 40 000 pounds worth of tax um after that came out you know a lot of people jumped in including Nigel Farage including other people but what's been done has been done so Angela Rina was think forced to resign think from her role both as deputy prime minister and housing secretary which is bit ironic thinking that her problem had to do with a house but basically she paid the incorrect stamp duty for land tax that's that's it
00:01:51
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:02:02
John Gartside
Yes, so exactly that. And she breached the ministerial code. She did receive legal advice. And I think, in fact, she was told to receive further advice because of her status as the deputy prime minister.
00:02:16
John Gartside
However, she clearly did not take that. And she underpaid by £40,000.
00:02:21
John Gartside
You mentioned there that she was forced to resign and I think that was the sort of inevitable conclusion of the affair and she had to, especially in light of her having called for Tory politicians in the past to resign over their making mistakes in their taxation affairs.
00:02:22
Dejan
Yes.
00:02:39
John Gartside
A notable one was Nadeem Zahawi, who did the sort COVID vaccine rollouts under Boris Johnson. She was at the forefront of saying he had to resign her taxation affairs.
00:02:52
John Gartside
Something which I think is harsh because people do genuinely make mistakes. I think she made a genuine mistake. And I think many people across the political spectrum in the past have made similar mistakes when it comes to tax.
00:03:07
John Gartside
However, if she's saying that other politicians need to resign, if they encounter those issues, she has to as well.
00:03:15
Dejan
I agree.
00:03:17
Dejan
I think it's just an issue of fairness.
00:03:19
John Gartside
yeah
00:03:21
Dejan
You can't be preaching mass resignations when you yourself don't follow the rules.
Political Repercussions of Rayner's Resignation
00:03:27
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:03:27
John Gartside
And I think maybe some say it sort of signals something quite dismal about British politics in the sense that such a small mistake can end a career like Rainer, who she was becoming very popular. She had a large sort of connection, it seemed with large parts of the electorate.
00:03:46
John Gartside
But politicians are in the limelight. They are public popular figures. Therefore, they do need to act correctly. And they really, it's inevitable that mistakes happen, but they should try and minimise these. And I think in her case, there probably was room to.
00:04:06
Dejan
Yeah, i i agree. I think something that surprised me, though, was that Mr. Farage, who the listeners of the podcast now not a a big fan of at all, has been making quite a big deal about this.
00:04:13
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:04:21
Dejan
He says he hasn't, but I mean, he's made a couple of statements, couple of calls for resignations. Was he himself on his house in Clacton, which is not his house, has decided to sort of frankly, evade, not evade, but avoid the tax code by having his partner buy the house so that he should not have to pay that second home stamp duty.
00:04:43
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:04:47
Dejan
Again, something the vicinity of £50,000.
00:04:47
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:04:49
Dejan
No,
00:04:52
John Gartside
I mean, that is an illegal, though. Yeah, that was an illegal avoidance. Not illegal.
00:04:56
Dejan
no, no, it wasn't illegal, but it was pretty much the same...
00:04:58
John Gartside
Yeah, it's playing around.
00:05:02
Dejan
From a moral standpoint, I don't see much of a difference between what he has done and what Reina has done.
00:05:04
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:05:07
Dejan
Frankly, I think Angela Reina maybe is even less than the wrong because I genuinely think she made a mistake.
00:05:14
Dejan
Nigel Farage definitely did not make a mistake.
Highlights from the Reform Party Conference
00:05:17
Dejan
And this actually brings us into our next topic, which is the latest reform conference.
00:05:25
Dejan
Going all over social media, we've seen clips of sort of Lincolnshire mayor singing I'm an insomniac
00:05:32
John Gartside
Oh
00:05:37
Dejan
live on stage. At the end, the British anthem started with God Save the Queen and ended with God Save the King traditional reform fashion.
00:05:49
Dejan
A lot of other sort of speeches. But what was most worrying to me was the fact that you had these interviews at the Reform Conference with 12-year-olds,
Young People's Radical Political Involvement
00:05:59
Dejan
16-year-olds, 15-year-olds.
00:06:02
Dejan
And when they were asked why they're here, they did speak. the same propaganda that is being fed, such as reform is the only party that cares for working British people.
00:06:13
Dejan
We won't have a future. Schools are not teaching about maths. They're teaching about LGBTQ agendas. I mean, John, we're in school. When's the last time you were taught about an LGBTQ agenda?
00:06:22
John Gartside
Yeah, that's very, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:28
Dejan
It's very worrying.
00:06:32
Dejan
And that question for me is why are so many people either going to the left and choosing Jeremy Corbyn to the far left or going to the far right to choosing Nigel Vtaraj? I find that there's a lack of people who are sort in the center anymore, center left, center right, whatever you prescribe there, but sort of in the
Rise of Farage and Political Discontent
00:06:48
Dejan
center. Why are people opting for these radical parties?
00:06:53
John Gartside
I mean, firstly, I'll say that to sort of address your previous claim about Farage bringing up Rayner, if I was Farage, I think I'd do the same. And I don't blame him because I think Rayner's resignation is very symbolic of the sort of crisis that gets government in.
00:07:10
John Gartside
And in a way of how it has sort of been a bit shambolic so far from Sakiya. You know, he seemed to annoy many of the people that voted him It's been scandals from the start, thinking of Lord Waheed Ali.
00:07:23
John Gartside
So I think... I mean, it harsh for him to talk a lot about it? Yes. But it is symbolic of something very interesting and unfortunate for Kia's Labour government.
00:07:36
John Gartside
But going back to your question, I think, firstly, young people obviously have always been on the more radical side of politics.
00:07:42
Dejan
Thank you.
00:07:43
John Gartside
sort of whenever you read the news and you've got a 60-year-old journalist recounting about their political life journey, they always start out some sort of wacky communist, or in many cases, or as, don't know, some wacky member of the far right.
00:07:58
John Gartside
I think young people are more... are more... are perhaps more inclined to the extremes of politics. However, I think it's coming to the situation that, let's say, not the ordinary person, but a large majority of people in the UK are moving to Farage simply because they're disappointed by Labour.
00:08:21
Dejan
Yeah.
00:08:22
John Gartside
been they were previously frustrated by a poor 14 years of Tory government. Farage is excelling at the moment, whether you like him or not.
00:08:32
John Gartside
i mean, I don't like him the most in the sense that think he'd be not very good when he's in government. But he's he's always going to profit off other parties not doing well.
00:08:43
John Gartside
And that sort of seemed to be the case for a while UK politics, as I said. You know, lots of, Raina was very popular. She was sort of seen this working class hero, working class hero who did own several properties, let that be.
00:08:58
John Gartside
But nevertheless, you're sort of seen as this working class hero who represented significant portion of the Labour Party. They've now lost that representation, or at least for the time being, until a new deputy leader is elected.
00:09:13
John Gartside
So it's... So it sort of opens up the door to reform again, is interesting. What do you think about all this day at?
Voter Preferences: Reform vs Lib Dems
00:09:21
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:09:23
Dejan
I mean, want to ask you another question, which is why are people going to reform and not to deliver them instead?
00:09:29
John Gartside
Yeah, and that is a good question, but I think why reform and not the Lib Dems? Firstly, the Lib Dems attracts a very different kind of voter to reform. Reforms, they're far more popular amongst, like said, working class than the Lib Dems. Why? Because the Lib Dems are seen as a sort of liberal party, which is fairly exclusive to the Lib Dems.
00:09:53
John Gartside
to basically the south of England, which it is. If you look at where Lib Dem constituencies are, there's a theme, one could say. They're a liberal party for the home counties, many find.
00:10:06
John Gartside
I think also there's perhaps a case to say Farage's messaging is... stronger than the Lib Dems. I think Sered Davy is quite a good, he's quite good at social media, but I think Faraj, sort of, whether you like him or not, you can recognise that he's in his own league, Faraj, when it comes to a political orator, being a speaker.
00:10:27
John Gartside
He excels at public media, anything to do with sort of communications. ah But I'm back to the Lib Dems.
00:10:34
Dejan
Yes.
00:10:36
John Gartside
I think reform's a very different party to the Lib Dems in the sense that the Lib Dems do have an image which is sort of perhaps more left-wing, whereas people at the UK seem to be quite right-wing socially at the moment.
00:10:55
Dejan
I find for us to be more left-wing than any of these other parties.
00:11:00
John Gartside
In what sense? I mean, because i'd say quite right-wing.
00:11:01
Dejan
Well,
00:11:03
John Gartside
yeah
00:11:18
Dejan
I think, I think he plans a government of sort of quite heavy government intervention, similar to Trump's MAGA. I don't think that, I don't think there's anything that is sort of right wing about him, apart from this sort of label that he has been put on by, society. I mean, yes, you can say he's a nationalist. Yes.
00:11:40
Dejan
But don't think from an economic perspective, I don't think there's anything right wing about Farage or reform.
00:11:45
John Gartside
Oh yeah, I agree in that sense. Economically, he's, he's you know, Matt Sinclair said, and I agree Matt Sinclair, he's sort of in fantasy land.
00:11:54
Dejan
Yeah.
00:11:54
John Gartside
He agreed to things that the left wing, he wants tax cuts, but then he wants more, he wants more sort of welfare and wealth. more welfare and benefits, a left-wing idea, he's totally all over the place. But I think he's right-wing and in fact, very right-wing when it comes to social issues. And that is where he'll benefit.
00:12:14
John Gartside
Immigration is one. If you look at why are so many people voting for reform at the moment, the biggest issue that comes up is immigration. this immigration issue has seemed to sort of seize a huge part of the British population.
00:12:31
John Gartside
read somewhere that the middle class in Britain has become radicalised.
00:12:35
Dejan
Yes.
00:12:35
John Gartside
And I think there is an element of truth in that. You see it in Epping, these protests. You see it... I mean, I think in Canary Wharf, there have been huge protests. It's across the country.
00:12:46
John Gartside
Immigration, slightly bizarrely in my eyes, has become the forefront issue. I think it's slightly ridiculous because be honest, I think it's totally ridiculous protesting.
00:12:52
Dejan
Yes.
00:12:58
John Gartside
I think, what do they expect us? You know, we should house them. You know, don't understand what these people want us to do elsewhere with immigrants.
00:13:09
John Gartside
I think they have a right to have accommodation. and So even in the hotels, don't see what the issue is with that.
00:13:12
Dejan
Yeah.
00:13:16
John Gartside
I can understand that perhaps there needs to be a greater police presence if people are really concerned with, ah ah let's say, the attack. The attack on the 14-year-old girl who fjord the protests in Epping.
00:13:28
John Gartside
I can understand how that works.
00:13:29
Dejan
But again, again, think that is just outrageous.
00:13:30
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:13:34
Dejan
Because if we look, I think if we look statistically now at 100 rapes in the UK...
00:13:41
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:13:42
Dejan
96 of those would be done by sort of white British born people.
00:13:46
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:13:46
Dejan
Statistically speaking, well, not 96 because Britain's top black and sort of percentages, but an overwhelming majority, let's say 75% will be done by white British born people.
00:13:51
John Gartside
Yeah. but
00:13:59
Dejan
I mean, should we have more police in sort of the whitest areas of Surrey? Should we have that? Because statistically speaking, they're more likely to be rapists.
00:14:07
John Gartside
Is it though, actually?
00:14:07
Dejan
I mean, I think that's just outrageous. The fact that you need more police because one attack happened. And then say, oh, because this guy's an idiot. Everyone coming and seeking asylum is going through the same thing. I think that's just, that just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
00:14:22
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think over-exaggerated protests.
00:14:28
John Gartside
And I think, and I mean, you read things about, I saw a really good video yesterday by Dr. Tessa Dunlop, famous historian and actually famous.
00:14:38
John Gartside
sorry sorry I saw a really good video yesterday by Dr. Tessa Dunlop, who's actually a very prominent Romanian historian. And she was saying that our migration crisis is not a crisis, and that is true.
00:14:51
John Gartside
Or rather, our immigration crisis is not a crisis.
00:14:54
Dejan
Yes.
00:14:54
John Gartside
There are countries with exponentially higher ah ah rates and higher numbers of immigration and illegal immigrants seeking asylum. Therefore, that just shows how this issue is exaggerated.
00:15:07
John Gartside
What do you think about this, Diane? Do you think these protests are here to stay and become sort of continual issue and theme of British politics?
Immigration Protests and Their Impact
00:15:15
John Gartside
Or do you think this is sort of a phase of British society?
00:15:16
Dejan
mean,
00:15:19
Dejan
I do think they had to stay, unfortunately. I don't think they should stay because Again, I find them slightly
00:15:26
Dejan
obsolete. I don't really see their point. I don't see again. I mean, you know, you've got all these people now, social media being human rights experts, well, you know, sorry, but what do you want to do?
00:15:38
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:15:44
Dejan
You know, ah people should have access to ah ah doctor.
00:15:44
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:15:50
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:15:50
Dejan
People should have a place to stay and people should have something to eat.
00:15:54
John Gartside
yeah
00:15:54
Dejan
The fact that people are not allowed to work because they are not until their claims are processed, they are not allowed to work.
00:16:02
Dejan
I think that's an issue.
00:16:04
Dejan
think that could be, you know, that could be over, over, over done something that Tony Blair brought in. But again, i just, I just find it a bit difficult to imagine what the outcome would be of anything else. I mean, without immigration, this is... It's the third time already.
00:16:26
John Gartside
say yeah yeah yeah i mean that's obviously a fundamental difference though between legal and illegal immigration but it's yeah it's a relevant point yeah
00:16:26
Dejan
55 to 60% of the NHS would be gone. mean, I don't think anyone wants that.
00:16:41
Dejan
Well, yeah, but some people that illegal immigrants... and are running from conflict areas do end up working in the NHS and contributing there and in other sectors.
00:16:47
John Gartside
yeah in end it's
00:16:51
Dejan
So...
00:16:53
John Gartside
yeah yeah Yeah, I see that. And I think, you know, this is a phrase that's sort of been that people dislike, and I don't know why. And it's that countries are sort of built on immigration.
00:17:06
John Gartside
And I think that's true. Many countries, Britain, for example, the United States, they are countries whose societies have been shaped by immigration.
00:17:17
Dejan
Yes.
00:17:17
John Gartside
And I think and that's not a bad thing. Rather, it sort of makes us who we are today.
Starmer's Cabinet Changes and Labour's Strategy
00:17:23
John Gartside
So perhaps for our last question, Diane, we can mention Sakia Starmer's perhaps meteoric cabinet shuffle.
00:17:33
John Gartside
In the last few days, we have seen him make some really interesting decisions in his cabinet. And in his eyes, perhaps just further refine it and perfect it to sort of equip him with the challenges which he's facing, whether that comes from reform or internally in his own party.
00:17:52
John Gartside
So can you perhaps run us through a few of these changes? And also, what do you think the consequences of these will be?
00:18:01
Dejan
Yeah, so I think most, permanently David Lammy has been promoted to deputy prime minister now.
00:18:07
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:18:13
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:18:14
Dejan
Furthermore, I'm just trying to find every single one. Anna Turley has been appointed as minister, but without any portfolio.
00:18:22
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:18:24
Dejan
Alex Norris will be in the Home Office.
00:18:28
Dejan
Sir Chris Bryant will be the Department of Business and Trade. Luke Pollard is in the Ministry of Defence. Georgia Golden Department for for Education. Ellie Reeves will be Solicitor General.
00:18:40
Dejan
Lucy Rigby will be the Economic Secretary to the Treasury.
00:18:46
Dejan
Yvette Cooper is now foreign secretary.
00:18:49
John Gartside
That's big one.
00:18:49
Dejan
Again, a big move moving from the home office to the foreign secretary. I mean, a big move. Yes. Not a huge one because the home office still is a huge institution.
00:18:59
John Gartside
Big problem.
00:19:02
Dejan
Yes.
00:19:06
John Gartside
I mean, a few others, Pat McFadden in Work and Pensions now, and also, Darren Jones, the Duchy of Lancaster?
00:19:07
Dejan
I think
00:19:15
John Gartside
And I saw a rather interesting commentary on that, because those two have been previously referred to as the Today Programme Ministers, which is a sort of current affairs radio programme in the UK.
00:19:15
Dejan
I'm pretty sure yes.
00:19:30
John Gartside
primarily because they're a steady and trusted pair of hands. So I think Key has clearly brought them closer to him, signaling his trust for them.
00:19:38
Dejan
Yes.
00:19:42
John Gartside
And also David Lammy is a really interesting one as well. Him being promoted to Deputy Prime Minister is a sort of sign of reward, many are saying, for his work overseas.
00:19:54
John Gartside
Notably, we saw him entertain J.D. Vaughan in the Cotswolds and across London over the summer. And I think that shows that David Lammy's clearly very much favored by Sakhir, and he has also impressed on the world stage.
00:20:07
Dejan
Yes.
00:20:09
John Gartside
impressing Vance, he's probably not the easiest individual to, you sort of have to do a lot of pleasing him and Trump.
00:20:16
Dejan
Yes.
00:20:17
John Gartside
But yeah, he's managed to to make his way through and to be promoted at the demise of Angela Rayner, who has been demoted to the back benches.
00:20:29
John Gartside
And I think probably this will be the end, at least for the meantime of her political career.
00:20:37
Dejan
Yes. didn't see her coming back, to be honest. i I find it very difficult for her to come back after this. mean, never say never, but it was a big scandal and one that wasn't perhaps the easiest to put down under the plug because it wasn't something such as
00:20:50
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:21:01
Dejan
know, she's had an affair or something like that, which you saying, okay, it happens.
00:21:08
Dejan
Illegally not paying enough, enough taxes on a property, especially when you've, when you sort of preach about that day in and day out, I think is very difficult to come back from.
00:21:19
John Gartside
Yeah. And well, railing this downfall perhaps is symbolic of what is a rather at the moment disastrous Labour government for many. Yes.
00:21:29
Dejan
Yes.
00:21:30
John Gartside
Anyway, thank you for listening and we hope you've enjoyed the episode. We've tried to provide a bit more commentary and our opinions to some of the most pressing and forefront issues that and have appeared on the headlines in the past few weeks.
00:21:46
Dejan
Thank you very much and see you next week when we have huge, huge episode.
00:21:51
John Gartside
Yes, do tune in that.