Transcript
debatablediscussions: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for a very exciting episode as we are joined by perhaps one of our most knowledgeable guests so far.
Sebastian Burduja : Thank you.
Dejan: Today we're joined former Minister of Energy in Romania, Sebastian Bordouza, currently advisor to the PM and president in Bucharest for the Liberal Party of Romania. So the main right wing party.
Dejan: Now, Sebastian has a long career. Starting at Stanford, being inducted in the Phi Beta Kappa Junior Induction Society, which is for the top 2% of students there.
Dejan: Then going to Harvard for a Master of Public Administration, working at the World Bank and other consulting institutions. He decided to return back to Romania and enter politics.
Dejan: So the first question is, why come back?
Sebastian Burduja : I think in life you have to have meaning in what you do. It's kind of all too common and easy but very sad that many people go through life just to essentially make money and go on nice vacations and spend time on many beaches, but at the end of the day, what?
Sebastian Burduja : So I think it's up to each of us, and we have that responsibility to ask, what is my life about? How is my life making the world a better place?
Sebastian Burduja : It sounds sounds ah cliche, but ultimately it's very profound, I believe. And in my life, there's a particular book that has changed my path.
Sebastian Burduja : It has given me great strength in times of grief. It's called Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. And I highly recommend it to you all, Man's Search for Meaning. It's the story of a Holocaust survivor who went through four concentration camps, lost everything, his entire fortune, his entire family, but he realized that he would never lose the ability to choose ultimately what he does, whether he splits the last
Sebastian Burduja : a piece of bread with an inmate, whether he chooses to dream something beyond detention, so on and so forth. So for me, it just gives me meaning to know that I'm in my home country, that I'm contributing something to the best of my ability, whatever that is.
Sebastian Burduja : And that at the end of the day, when I'll draw that line at the end of this road, when I'll put my head on the pillow for the last time, like we all will at some point, I'll be able to look back and say, indeed, the world is somewhat better because I walked upon it.
debatablediscussions: Thank you.
Dejan: Thank you.
debatablediscussions: And Diane also mentioned there previously that you attended two extremely academically impressive universities in the USA. What sort of lessons did you learn from this and how has that experience helped you when entering politics in Romania?
Sebastian Burduja : in In everybody's life and career, I think the academic side plays a fundamental role. And I really use every single day what I've learned both at Stanford, at Harvard, but also before that high school, throughout my education years.
debatablediscussions: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : think it's... Very important to note that when I got to Stanford, I realized that I wasn't quite prepared for that environment.
Sebastian Burduja : I'm a very ambitious guy, so I've always been kind of nerdy and trying to perform in my courses. But I got there and soon realized you know I didn't really know how to read and that I was assigned hundreds of pages from one day to the next, four or five hundred pages.
Sebastian Burduja : and I had to very quickly learn how to skim synthesize a lot of information. And that's come in extremely helpful. Even as a minister, I would be faced with tons of ah emails or paperwork that I would have to quickly go through and immediately see if there's an issue or if it required further analysis. So it's a very good skill to have.
Sebastian Burduja : I didn't really know how to speak up, how to make my voice heard, because in Romania we're taught to listen, to write whatever the teacher's saying, and to basically never disagree with the teacher or the professor.
Sebastian Burduja : that was completely the opposite way of doing things at Stanford, but especially at the Harvard Business School, where courses are taught on Socratic method, so it's a conversation among students.
Sebastian Burduja : The professor intervenes about five, maybe 10% of the time for the entire duration of the course. And the learning comes from the interaction among students, oftentimes of different viewpoints.
Sebastian Burduja : And so I had to essentially challenge myself to speak up. to say something ideally that wasn't stupid and to every single ah ah time or at least ah every other week to say something smart in class.
Sebastian Burduja : About half of my grade at the business school was driven by class participation. So literally worked with myself and challenged myself and bet against myself that I would be able to speak up in class.
Sebastian Burduja : And then, you know, it's the social side, at least in the US, but I think it's true of any great campus out there. There's so many opportunities.
Sebastian Burduja : There's a lot of FOMO, you know, fear of missing out.
debatablediscussions: Yeah.
Sebastian Burduja : And I think one thing I learned is to try to balance things a bit better. If I could do it all again, I'd probably be more inclined develop more more and connections, social connections, networking, as they call it.
Sebastian Burduja : I was very focused on my academics. I partied hard as well, but all in all, a lot of key learnings and a lot of things I use on a daily basis.
Dejan: And you've had a sort of quite diverse career in US from working at the World Bank to other consulting groups. What was one of your highlights? What's the thing you miss most about being in the new world?
Sebastian Burduja : Well, it's very structured. The World Bank is sometimes called the golden cage because you are entering huge bureaucracy and most people never leave. It's a great place to work for. They pay you very well and you can kind of combine that sense of doing good in the world with a great financial benefits, personal benefits, a lot of learning, a a lot of mentorship.
Sebastian Burduja : ah So, you know, what I do today is completely lacking any structure, it's politics, so it's not really predictable. can be a minister one day and
debatablediscussions: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : a simple MP, a simple member of parliament the next day. don't control these kinds of events and you you kind have to learn that it's not a meritocratic game.
Sebastian Burduja : It's not really what I was used to in school and in my professional career in that If you work hard enough, if you put in the hours, if you are smart, you're going to make it. You're going to be there. to successful. A lot of it is timing and maybe luck.
Sebastian Burduja : And, you know, it's just politics. So to me, politics, it's a way to do good in the world. And I... ah very pragmatically, you get to have an impact on millions of people.
Sebastian Burduja : So at the end of the day, you know, it doesn't pay well. It's very stressful. You kind of sacrifice everything else. You get trashed in the media. But at the end of the day, you do have that opportunity to make an impact. So there's things I miss, but all in all, I love what I do and I never regretted coming back to my home country.
debatablediscussions: And another key aspect of your sort of career so far as a politician has been your rather captivating videos on social media, in which of many things you've sort of of stood up to fake news.
debatablediscussions: How important do you think this is to you in your position as a politician and as a public servant?
Sebastian Burduja : Oh, I think it's critical. I think this information is the greatest threat to our national security, not just in Romania, but throughout the free world. It's... It's interesting that Romania, for instance, is spending a lot of money on new weapons and tanks and missiles and Patriot systems and F-35s, so very complicated weaponry.
Sebastian Burduja : But if we're not careful, we're going to get all those nice weapons, but if we lose the heart of the people, if we surrender in the face of disinformation and fake news, we might as well lay down a ah ah red carpet to toward the new F-35s as the Russians pour in.
Dejan: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : So it's very difficult. We're dealing with an enemy that is highly skilled. And as energy minister, literally not a day went by without us having to confront some type of fake news.
Sebastian Burduja : Some of them are completely ridiculous. So, for instance, one of the oldest hydro plants in the country is finally getting modernized. It was one of the successes of my mandate.
Sebastian Burduja : After 60 years, more than 60 years, it's going into total modernization process and life extension process, which requires emptying reservoir, right, all the way down.
Dejan: so
Sebastian Burduja : And so there's this crazy theory that says that either we're bottling up that water to give it away for free to the French,
Sebastian Burduja : or that there's actually gold hidden on the bottom of the lake and somebody's stealing it. We don't know who and how and whatever. So a lot of it seems stupid, but it's unbelievable how easy it is to fall into the trap of disinformation.
Sebastian Burduja : And I think it's a moral duty for any public servant who has the right information, who has the right authority to come out and say, look, guys, it's just not how things are. This is the truth. and This is the data.
Sebastian Burduja : Please take a look. Even if you do that, sometimes it doesn't work and you're not going to win everybody. But at least you put up a battle, at least you put up a fight.
Sebastian Burduja : And I think it's something that each public servant, each person in the arena absolutely has to do these days.
Dejan: Why do you think conspiracy theories propagate so easily nowadays? I mean, can't think of something like this happening three, four years ago. Before COVID, it was a bit unimaginable that people would think...
Dejan: the French need to drink water from Romanian lakes instead of just buying Evian or Perrier or one of their many springs.
Sebastian Burduja : Right.
Dejan: Why do you think 2025 is this sort of hot zone for conspiracy theories?
Sebastian Burduja : Well, I think a lot of it has to do with people running away from taking responsibility over their own lives and and and success. So It's kind of easy and tempting to blame some sort of grand conspiracy for your own failures in life.
Sebastian Burduja : you know, we're we're unhappy in in Romania or we're poorer than we should be because the French are stealing our water, because, you know, somebody stole the gas from the reservoirs or whatever.
Sebastian Burduja : It's just, I believe it's honestly a cowardly way out for some people to put the blame on these...
Sebastian Burduja : grand conspiracies, as I said, which may explain some of their lack of success in life. I know this sounds arrogant. I'm not trying to be arrogant in any way.
Sebastian Burduja : just I do think that we live in a world where the word ah ah responsibility is often not part of people's vocabulary.
Sebastian Burduja : And I think we'd live in a much better world if people understood that with with all that each of us has, the fact that we live in a free country, we enjoy democracy, we can go out and make our voice heard without getting arrested.
Sebastian Burduja : We can go out and work and make a living, hopefully a decent living. All those gifts essentially require giving back. And that is this responsibility.
Sebastian Burduja : At the same time, there's a massive erosion of legitimacy by the political elite, by the political establishment, which...
Sebastian Burduja : A lot of it is our fault. It's politicians fault. We either did not do enough, we didn't know how to communicate the good things we've done, there's still a lot of corruption, and so there's disenchantment in society. People feel angry, they tend to think that whoever's politician must be a ah idiot, a crook.
Sebastian Burduja : And so it's very demotivating if you have the right intentions and you're trying to do good for your country, For for total stranger to label you in all sorts of ways from, you know, crook to idiot bastard, whatever, there's a long list of names I've been called.
Sebastian Burduja : It's demotivating. I think it's scary for people who would like to be in politics, would like to do good, but they don't want to put up with that crap. And of course, that's fueling also extremist forces, populists that have not been in power. So know, we don't know if they're competent or I know they're not competent, but people are at large didn't get to see them in action.
Sebastian Burduja : And so they talk in big words. We're going to rule our country again. going to produce our energy again. It's going to be free. Everything's going to be free. Everything's going to be nice and good.
Sebastian Burduja : But ultimately, you're faced with an almost impossible choice. You know, If they win and they take over the government, anything can happen. We may not be a democracy at some point.
Sebastian Burduja : We may completely surrender to Russia. If they don't win, well, they stay in the opposition and they don't get the chance to prove what they know or actually don't know.
Sebastian Burduja : So it's kind of a catch-22 that nobody really knows how to solve, I guess. Please.
Dejan: I think I just want ask you one more question on that sort of topic.
debatablediscussions: Yeah.
Dejan: What do you think the role of the media is in combating fake news? Because we have a lot of people here on the podcast, some which we don't agree with at all.
Dejan: And we always try to make sure that we, one, listen to them and they can say their point, but also the the that they're not sort of saying anything that is factually untrue without being challenged heavily.
Dejan: So do you think the media is doing their job or do you think it should be a bit more
Sebastian Burduja : No, no. Yeah, no, I think the media is doing a terrible job for many reasons. One is some parts of the media are actively ah ah propagating fake news and disinformation.
Sebastian Burduja : They face ah ah little to no penalty if they do it, at least in Romania. And there's no accountability, there's no responsibility.
Sebastian Burduja : beyond a moral call for upholding the truth, which is, you know, important, but less and less relevant, I guess, these days for a lot of the media.
Sebastian Burduja : And the problem is, since it's money-driven and profit-driven, they tend to insist on the topics that, frankly, have an audience.
Sebastian Burduja : And so it's kind of vicious circle. They pour out of poor out of either conspiracies or in any case negative images of what's happening, bad news.
Sebastian Burduja : And that creates a lot of anger in society. And it feeds this monster that is eroding the legitimacy of our society, of our democracies.
Sebastian Burduja : i i I'm biased. I've been part of the last two governments in this country. I've been a minister for three years. I know that there's many things that were good that have happened in the country.
debatablediscussions: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : We have a lot more highways. Last year, for instance, we launched, we brought to the grid, we connected to the grid eight times as much as many new groups, new energy power groups in one year as in eight years before
Dejan: Thank
Sebastian Burduja : it's just a simple example from my job. But literally in almost every field, the country's doing so much better than 35 years ago. It's unbelievable.
Sebastian Burduja : And yet what is truly unbelievable is that many people regret communism It's that, you know, two-thirds of Romanians think that Ceaușescu was a good leader. It's just unacceptable. And even if you look on social media, I do this every now and then. I waste some time on TikTok, but I like to say that I'm studying social trends. And you'll see all these communism videos and speeches by Ceaușescu, and they are so popular.
Sebastian Burduja : It's scary. So clearly... There's a fault in in in the traditional media, but also in the new media because, for instance, I don't understand why large social networks do not require personal authentication.
Dejan: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : So you should, in my opinion, not have a social account on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok unless you provide a photocopy of your ID and you can match that with your face.
debatablediscussions: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : So, you know, I understand that trolls create traffic and money, but in the end of the day, there should be a a clear, again, an an accountability of our opinions on social media, and that can only be done if they can be traced to an actual person, not to but fake account.
debatablediscussions: And actually, that was something that me and Diane have also discussed on the podcast. And it is quite fascinating, actually, how, as you mentioned, their history is almost being weaponised for like political causes and movements.
debatablediscussions: Another thing you mentioned there, which was interesting, was this idea of sort of trust being eroded between people and the politicians. And I think it's clearly evidence in Romania, as it is in Britain,
debatablediscussions: How do you sort of want to combat this? How do you think we can build back trust between people and the politicians?
Sebastian Burduja : Well, first of all, I think political parties need to deeply reform. and open up to society and be a lot more transparent in terms of party financing, what happens to state subsidies that parties get, how is this money spent in terms of recruitment of cadres, as they call them, of party members.
Sebastian Burduja : ah recruitment for public positions for different decision makers, make it a meritocracy where, you know, it really matters what you know, not whom you know.
Sebastian Burduja : And I think a lot of it is just this to live by our by our principles, which are and should be transparency, meritocracy, openness and kind of reconnect. It's it's not going to happen overnight, unfortunately.
Sebastian Burduja : And I think that it will take time for these wounds to heal. But But um it has to be done, otherwise all is lost. So part of it is on us as politicians.
Sebastian Burduja : ah through political parties. That's democracy, sorry for those who don't believe in political parties, but they have to exist in a democracy. Part of it is education. And I think that in our school systems, we need to do a much better job in teaching, for instance, what communism was, how things were back then, how you couldn't open up your mouth, you can make your voice heard unless you wanted to risk getting arrested, so on and so forth. So I think it's a combination of factors it will take time, but there's no other way to save the free world.
Dejan: And on that, you've mentioned previously, ahead of the mayoral race in Bucharest, a sort of primary system analog to the one in the US. Do you think that might be a solution of opening up society a little bit?
Sebastian Burduja : Yeah, Dan, I think it's absolutely part of the solution. So the more competitive political races are, the more transparent, the more open, the more we stand ready to battle ideas front of people and actual data and arguments and just present our vision, the better it will be and the easier it will be to regain people's trust.
Sebastian Burduja : Otherwise, you know, it all seems part of this dark age of politics where it's, you know, understandings and different conversation in smoke filled rooms where people don't have access to and then they just get presented with some kind of candidate and then they get manipulated and then i on election day, they don't really feel that ah ah they have the power to really change things. They feel like it's already been decided for them.
Sebastian Burduja : And that's something we need to avoid.
debatablediscussions: So if this sort of measure was implemented, I guess, across the board in Romania, do you think it'd be quite effective in sort of of combating corruption? Yeah.
Sebastian Burduja : I mean, primary elections, I think, would grant more legitimacy to candidates and ultimately to the winners of these elections. You could also go back to the runoff system in local elections, which Romania sat on till a number of years ago.
Sebastian Burduja : On battling corruption, I mean, it's... It's a factor of many things and I wrote my ah ah undergrad honors thesis on this so I could speak for a long time, but it's essentially one to have institutional mechanisms for combating corruption. The judicial system needs to be functional, it needs to be independent, it needs to be credible, it needs to be efficient.
Sebastian Burduja : and not drag its feet for ages before reaching a verdict on corruption cases. You need a civil society that is strong and stimulated and protected and able to voice concerns. You need a media that's free and independent.
Sebastian Burduja : not just instrumented by different political opponents or as a political weapon, but really as true to the mission of bringing out the truth and showing it to people.
Sebastian Burduja : And you do need ah ah political elites that understand what corruption is, how to combat it, and ultimately You know, why be in politics if you want to make money? That's what I don't understand.
Sebastian Burduja : You should be in politics if you want to change the world for the better. If you want to make money, there's plenty of opportunities for most people in the private sector, unless you're an incompetent fool, in which case you're probably going to cling to your political position as much as you can and not let anybody develop around you.
Sebastian Burduja : so that you don't have a competition within the party within government. So a lot of factors go into combating corruption. But last thing I'll say, but it's important, it's education as well.
Sebastian Burduja : So I wrote my PhD thesis this time on business to business corruption. few people talk about it. There is such thing as corruption among private entities, private companies, commissions, kickbacks, so on and so forth.
Sebastian Burduja : It's actually criminalized in our penal code. So you can go to jail if somebody catches you paying a bribe. as a private company to another private company. But when we researched this, we surveyed essentially, and I believe focus grouped students that were in MBA programs or some other programs that essentially were preparing them to be the next business leaders of the country.
Sebastian Burduja : the vast majority of them didn't know that this would really be defined corruption among private entities so education plays a key role too
Dejan: And before getting to our last question, which is already staple, I'd say, want to ask you, if you had a message for the world, what is Romania's message? What is your message that you want people in the UK, the USA and the entire world to know?
Sebastian Burduja : Romania is a blessed country and it has the biggest asset that any country would want and that's our people. And Dan here is just an example, but I could consider John Romanian by contagion anyway.
Sebastian Burduja : We have very smart, hardworking people and that's why I have faith in the future of this country. They have, when they're allowed to perform a meritocratic system, especially Romanians that have gone abroad, worked abroad, performed abroad, whether in universities, in research centers, or as simple workers in a, you know, on a construction site.
Sebastian Burduja : You can see that We are are indeed a country to envy ah ah thanks to the quality of our people, I believe, beyond natural resources, beyond all this stuff, competitive advantages and so on.
Sebastian Burduja : So I'm biased, obviously, but for anybody who doesn't know Romania or hasn't gotten to know Romanian yet, I challenge you to come visit.
Dejan: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : We're here, we're wide open and we'd love to have you here.
debatablediscussions: yeah yeah And sort of following on from that, if you had one piece of advice for young people, what would that be?
Sebastian Burduja : Never give up. Whenever you fail, which you will, because that's life, just get back up. ah And remember, you are the master of your destiny. That is, if you truly understand this responsibility and not just let yourself be in the...
Sebastian Burduja : in the turmoil of life. As I said, life sometimes gets very crappy, very shitty. And how you react in those moments will define who you will be at the end.
Sebastian Burduja : So please learn to fail. When you do, I'm not saying to be happy that you're failing, but at least welcome that as an opportunity to get back up and try again.
Sebastian Burduja : And no matter who tells you what, don't give up.
Dejan: Sebastian, thank you very much for coming. It has been really great to...
Sebastian Burduja : My pleasure. Congratulations to you guys for doing this.
debatablediscussions: I know. Thank you very much.
Dejan: Thank you.
Sebastian Burduja : Hats off.
debatablediscussions: Yeah. thank you.
Dejan: Thank you. See you next week.
