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Episode 48 - ADHD And Narcissism
109 Plays1 year ago
Paul and Martin (co-Mayors of ADHDville) talk about Narcissism. Martin opens up about his difficult relationship with his mother. We talk about the similarities between ADHD and Narcissism and how to spot a narc. This is for all those who have a narcissist parent but also those that have a narcissist partner.
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Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
ADHD/Focus music from Martin (AKA Thinking Fish)
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember: This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Reflection
00:00:00
Speaker
ah Just before we start this podcast, just to let you know that I recorded this about a couple of days before my mum actually died. And we talk about, I talk about my mum quite a lot in this. So I still stand by everything that I say in this podcast. But this is just to say, I guess, because she won't have the right to reply at this point. um Not that she'd ever listen to the podcast, but If she did, I will give you my mum's side of the argument, which would be, I'm talking nonsense. um I'm insane. I'm a crazy person. um um and and I'm cruel and I'm hurtful. And then she will phone all of her friends and family and say how cruel and hurtful I'm being on this podcast. so
00:00:54
Speaker
That is her side of the story. um And with that, ah let's crack
Meet the Hosts: Paul and Martin
00:01:00
Speaker
on. OK, so I'm just going to say, welcome to a
00:01:27
Speaker
hello i paul tubbs and i was diging denoed diagnosed but the combi A-D h and the-D ah ten months ago martin you know that I did not. This is news to me. To me, to you. To me, to you. to you And I'm Martin Weston. I was diagnosed with the combined ADHD poo poo platter in 2013. Did you know that, Paul? Did you? I do now. So we're just here as two mates who, by coincidence, after 39, almost 40 years of apprenticeship, just keep going.
Podcast Disclaimer: Entertainment, Not Medical Advice
00:02:08
Speaker
Oh, it's really important to say this is an entertainment.
00:02:14
Speaker
Adult ADHD does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals, Martin. So don't take your advice from him or me. We're just here as a kind of all inclusive ADHD bench with room for everyone, including your doppelgangers, your alter egos, your buddy doubles, your show.
00:02:37
Speaker
still here great then grab your jet packs everyone jet packs or petalos space hoppers already actually any other transportation method that comes and and let us take you to ad steve oh any much oh my pregnant pause where we like to experiment pass of the ad h and the d
00:03:05
Speaker
Right. And we start off as always in the town hall, in the mayor's office, where we, the joint mayors of ADHD, will take care of business. And this week we are going to just talk about one thing.
00:03:20
Speaker
um um I'm just going to change something here. Here we go. We're going to talk about that. Rewrite this script. as we I know, I know. Terrible.
00:03:32
Speaker
um a a idea yeah I just realized that I that i that i didn't have there have the right sound effects loaded up.
Main Topic Introduction: ADHD and Narcissism
00:03:44
Speaker
Anyway, um so I was chatting to some people and this thing of narcissism came up quite a lot and I felt like I really wanted to talk about it.
00:03:57
Speaker
I really wanted to talk about it and then I promised people I was going to talk about it. um yeah we else This is it. So we're going to talk about ADHD and narcissism. It's a it's a subject. It's a subject. um and So.
00:04:14
Speaker
We are going to... Where are we going to, Paul? Did I just type in? Let's go to the coffee shop, Martin. I think I need some... Thank you. That's great. I love the idea. I love the idea. Because it keep keep keeps it light. Keeps it light, Martin. Yeah, exactly. Let's get... Let's bring the car round, shall we? Let's bring the car round. I might... I might actually... Get a granola bar. as well
00:04:53
Speaker
I'm playing my acoustic ruler.
00:05:02
Speaker
So like ah i'll i'll I'm offering this time. war What can I get you Martin at the A.J.D. coffee shop? Where are we now? August. You know what? um I am going to get, I'm just going to get my standard green. Actually, no, I'm going to get a watermelon and black tea. Wow. Look at you. That's what I've got. That's what I'm going to have today. Sophisticated. Okay. I'm going to just give it like a nice tea, I think. And a granola bar. I like a granola bar.
00:05:36
Speaker
I'm a little bit, you know, I don't know. That can be, I'm often disappointed. ah you Often disappointed. You find yourself whacking your finger at them for no reason at a granola bar. i yeah um I find the Starbucks, right? The Starbucks, I find that their coffee makes,
00:05:57
Speaker
um well, it it fastens my, um ah how can I say? It gives me problems. It fastens. It unfastens. Yeah. It's like my, what's what I call it. It makes me go to the toilet. All right. This is weird effect to me, but the Starbucks granola bars are outstanding.
00:06:22
Speaker
Just throw that in. Okay. I'm going to chat about this ah you yesterday. I haven't been to a Starbucks for a very long time. Very long time. Just not doing that anymore. Anyway. um Okay. All right. I want to talk about ADHD and
Discussion Outline: ADHD, Narcissism, and Family Dynamics
00:06:46
Speaker
narcissism. And I'm going to talk about I'm going to do that classic thing, which is tell people what I'm going to tell them at the beginning. So we'll talk about my, my.
00:07:01
Speaker
ADHD and narcissism story. Then we're going to go into ADHD and narcissism and how they connect. We're going to talk about types of narcissists. We're going to talk about narcissism in the family, which is which is more my little specialist area. And then at the end, we've got a little how to spot a narcissist if you have ADHD. There we go. but where i know If I want to spot the narcissist, I generally point my finger at them and shout.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's that would be a good thing to do. Yes. Okay. All right, so I'm gonna start off with me and my mum.
00:07:42
Speaker
who I believe quite strongly um ah is a, has narcissistic personality disorder. So, you know, as an actual thing. So not just like saying, oh, sounds so is a, a, a narcissist. Like it's a ride. Like it it's thrown around. It's so much insult. Right. It's thrown around. So I've been accused of being a narcissist by at least
00:08:13
Speaker
Um, and it's like, you know, it got to the point, like, like I started getting a doubt, but yeah, it's way too easy to throw around without people having any, you know, without it, people being informed about what it really damn well is.
00:08:29
Speaker
Right. And I will be coming on to why people with ADHD can get accused of being a narcissist because there are actually some weird little overlaps, but there's some very important, important differences. Yeah. Cause I can see how it can be confused. Right.
00:08:53
Speaker
I can see how it can be. he But the point for me is that, okay, if you if you're going to accuse someone of it, you need to be a bit more informed, because otherwise, it's not nice at all.
00:09:04
Speaker
Right. Right. Yeah. OK. Yeah. So let me take you back back back back back back back to when I was a kid. um So I'm like the eldest of two. I've got me and my brother um being and known unknowingly raised by a narcissist and and my dad who possibly was aut was was autistic, was on the spectrum. I don't, I can't 100% know that one's my phone. I can't 100% know that. We were talking about this, weren't we, before we came on the podcast. <unk> There's this general statistic is that ah the even the ah the average is 74% chance that you are the, is genetic.
00:10:00
Speaker
ADHD. I made na so i may have yeah um might i have a touch of that myself. right me so and ah can I can see why and it's the only explanation that makes my mum and dad work together as a married couple for all their life. I can go, that's how I can see that they actually managed to kind of get through it the whole thing and how they functioned. and Anyway, it was weird because I never really knew anything was wrong, but I started to suspect that it was like my my mum makes very few friends. Like people seem to kind of come and they kind of go, oh, no, I'm just going to go off. And then that they would go away. Right. Except for a few people.
00:10:51
Speaker
And when I looked at those people, they tended to be people that were like, I don't know, they had their own mental issues, it seemed. So they were like, so they were like little fragile character characters. um And I just thought it was weird.
00:11:11
Speaker
um One thing that was ah touched on this in ah in a previous podcast, I'll keep it really, really brief. is that if you're ADHD and you want a better way to mask, then actually it's a partner who is a narcissist because you are actually an athlete by a narcissist and it can be you know, to it can be a draw a magnet to actually spend time or even being in a relationship with ah with a narcissist, if that's sure. Yeah.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah. um Okay. One thing that that my mum, this is the the start of it. My mum had always told me that I was a miss mistake, right? Right. That my mum and dad, they kind of met. She had a she was in in a married marriage. She got married quite young and then she got divorced and she met my dad.
00:12:21
Speaker
um And she got pregnant and then they had to get married, you know, like two months after they I think I was married. I think ah my parents got married about two months before I was born. Right. You know, ah and she always said that I was a miss mistake. Right. hi And that my brother was planned because they went, OK, well, we've we've we've got one. Let's have two. Right.
00:12:49
Speaker
um and then would are as much which cheshi would She used the word mistake, or did she say it in a nicer way? No, no, no, no. A mistake. I was a mistake. That's so shit, isn't it? Jesus Christ. Right, which took me years to kind of process in my brain.
00:13:11
Speaker
And then eventually it popped out much later. So I was in, I was, uh, you know, maybe in my twenties or thirties or something. Um, and I, and I said, mom, do you remember? know And like I confronted her about it. I said, I said, you always told me that I was a mistake for my entire life. And then she denied it and said, I was making things up.
00:13:37
Speaker
And I thought that that was the first time I thought that's weird. shes She said it like a billion times to me. but Why is she gaslighting me about it? yeah
Family Impact: Turning Against the Speaker
00:13:49
Speaker
um And as I kind of went on into my adult life and I left home and I got a ah divorce and my mum was very disappointed in me.
00:14:03
Speaker
I was always the the the golden child, if you like. There was me um and my proud brother. um I was the kind of favored one for quite a long time. And then, and then I got a divorce. um And then I was, I was not the golden child anymore. I was like, I was a bad reflection on her and and and the family.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah. Eventually my mum turned everyone against me. Like my, my, my brother, everyone, everyone everyone will know. So she basically just kind of got everyone on, on her side. I was the bad guy. Jesus.
00:14:52
Speaker
And that was that that was it. I know. And it kind of came to the point where I was like, you you you know what? I'm just done with you. I'm done with you. So my contact with her was very... i I sort of limited it quite a lot. um This is was just about 20 years ago.
00:15:22
Speaker
Yeah, so yes so this is coming up 20 years ago. So from that point onwards, my contact with my mum was was very light. um you know you you know And when I went to the UK, because I moved to the States in that time, but my when i when I moved to the UK, no, when I went back to the UK to visit people, i I wouldn't stay at her house, right? Because I just could i just didn't want to deal with all of her crap, so I would stay in a hotel.
00:15:59
Speaker
um And then my dad died. And then that's when it all really started to kind of unravel. um Because a year ago. Oh, God, no, that's, that's a few years now.
00:16:15
Speaker
um Oh, is it? Yeah. Yeah. So four or five years, maybe more. um And I can remember my I can remember at the funeral. i so I said to my brother, I said, just just just just be careful, because She's going, because mum is going to like want to replace her husband with you. yeah He lived in the UK, I lived in the US so I had distance.
00:16:51
Speaker
um And he didn't, I don't, at the time it didn't really sink in, but after a while he realized that, oh God, yeah, he's just, he just got rip replaced. and So that's a classic narcissist thing, isn't it? They need, they need someone in their lives that they can, you know, right yeah can like that can mirror the kind of narcissism g nasticssism that they have inside them. It's like a vent
Narcissistic Behavior: Charm vs. Reality
00:17:23
Speaker
it.
00:17:23
Speaker
And actually the one of the most frustrating parts about it is you often they'll treat everyone else really nicely. They'd be like charming to everyone else. Yeah. So charming to everyone else, but she needed her narcissistic supply. So my, my brother was like, was, was, was the next in, in line for that. And bless his heart. He is, he is the most.
00:17:54
Speaker
loving, lovable boy man in the world, right? heres he is he is He is a great guy. And he you know he just likes to kind of get along and see the good side in people. um But even even he even he just eventually blew his top like my my mum would would just would would would just um she would complain about people she would just moan all the time right moan moan moan and in the end my my brother blew his top and he just shouted at her right he stood up and he was like i can't he shouted at her
00:18:40
Speaker
And then he he walk and then he he walked walked out and my mum obviously turned against him, right? So he now became, he became like the evil person and weirdly swapped me around. and then And then I became the good person and then he became the evil person. And then she turned all of the family against him.
00:19:09
Speaker
right and even though it was totally against her best in interest because she at this point she's like in her 80s right she's not got many years left in her she was diagnosed with cancer so she didn't have so she she needed the support of her son, but, but chose to kind of go into this narcissistic freaking thing and just. It's stronger than them, isn't it? You know, I always think that even, even narcissists, they have some deep, deep down, is so they are, there is a little tiny, tiny voice, a very silent voice is asking themselves questions about what they're doing, but it's a tiny voice.
00:19:56
Speaker
But it is there. Right. But they can't help it. It's way stronger than they then. Right. It's a lifelong habit. Right. Yeah. And we'll kind of get onto that more as as as we as we go. I mean, she had this list of things that she would she had a list of people and then who was going to get what, you know, like, you know, because she had cancer. So she So she knew that that her time was short. So she would go, right, I want all of these things to go to this person. I want my sister to have this or whatever. And all depending on on on who'd pissed her off or who was in a good book, or bad book, she would cross people out, right? Cross people out and then change what they had.
00:20:47
Speaker
So, you know, or if they were nice to her, she would go back onto the list again. You know, these people would go back on the list. It was this this ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, in the end, my my brother and me were cut out of the of the of the will, which is fine by me and my brother because we don't want enough. We don't want an effing thing.
00:21:13
Speaker
um So that is a very, very short version story time of me and my brother. and
00:21:24
Speaker
um Now, let's get into
ADHD vs. Narcissism: Forgetfulness Explained
00:21:28
Speaker
ADHD and narcissism. you know So if you have ADHD, right you you can forget things, like you can forget birthdays, you can forget anniversaries because you're yeah because you time blind, right?
00:21:43
Speaker
um and ah and you could be self-absorbed into something else, right? yeah And you forget. and a narcissist will also forget. They will also forget special events. But the difference is is that you'll feel guilty and you'll feel mortified if you if you forgot someone's birthday, right? But a narcissist won't because they have no empathy.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah. Also, narcissists have zero ability to reflect on their behavior.
00:22:29
Speaker
they will reflect on their behavior only in as far as, could I manipulate someone else better? Could I? Is there something better that I could have done to make the outcome of some situation better for for them? Because they're not just predators.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, they like say like
00:22:57
Speaker
Yeah, they need their narcissistic supply. Yeah. um Also, and an ADHD person can, as I said, feel self-absorbed and distant.
00:23:12
Speaker
um and you know, and almost kind of, you know, as I say, that we are very and and empathetic, but it can seem like we we don't care about the the other person, right? It did my from thepathe side we might we might be empathetic, but sometimes not very good at communicating, you know, how. ah
00:23:50
Speaker
Okay, we're back, I think. Well, yeah, there we go. I think we're back. Yeah, that was a big silence.
00:24:00
Speaker
Yeah, okay, we're back, I think. Yeah, um all also, yeah. Also, ADHD people can can create drama. um And that's because, you know,
00:24:19
Speaker
stimulated, and we lack dopamine, and and we can create drama, we can create arguments. um And it comes out of a place of being kind of bored, almost an understimulated, whereas a narcissist will create drama and arguments on purpose. They will, they will do it purposefully.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah. um but Does this do anything? They use all the tools, mental tools that they have to hand or to automate. They do anything to pay the sense of attention often, even if it's toxic and nasty.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I mean, one toxic thing, you know so um is but this is really about um more about people in relationships is the whole love bombing thing. at the right So when you meet someone, yeah if you have ADHD, it can be quite an intense experience, right? yeah you It's it's is's a very almost kind of of overwhelming period of of a of a relationship where you hyperfixate on someone, you're all about them. um And you you you want to know all all about them.
00:25:43
Speaker
And that's because you are genuinely interested and you kind of really want to kind of be part of their lives. But narcissists do this love bombing thing to strategically win you over because you know, it works. And also to kind of find out, you know, so they'll be asking lots of questions about you, but really they're doing it to find on you so that they can use that on you later.
00:26:14
Speaker
Yeah. But I think that the the big difference here is just intent. Like some of these things can look like ADHD, but actually it's the intent behind what you're doing or your behavior that is the difference. The intent of any narcissist is not good.
00:26:38
Speaker
powerful instinct to how to how to um spot weaknesses in people. And they will home in on and on it. And they will manipulate and um um um, you know, but gain power from that situation, even though this is really powerful instinct, I mean, they're they're really good at it, you know, you never underestimate how um it's how powerful they can be, you know, sometimes in perhaps very subtle ways, but in very subtle but strong ways.
00:27:17
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. No. And people with ADHD and also like my dad who might be aut all autistic can kind of get pulled into these, these, these relationships because they feel like they are, you know, that someone loves them, you know, and, and you've probably kind of come from a place of like, you know, where you aren't feeling great about yourself and someone else is saying how good you are and how fantastic you are.
00:27:46
Speaker
um yeah And when you do do something, yeah and that the you know if if you do something that the narcissist doesn't like,
00:27:57
Speaker
And the, and the, and the, and the narcissist says, Oh, you're just being too sensitive. but a For example, you're quite as an ADHD, you're quite conditioned to hearing that from loads of other people, right? yeah Of how crap you are because you forgot someone's birthday or so. yeah So you're, you're used to hearing the, the yeah all all of this crap.
00:28:27
Speaker
Mm hmm. So it kind of flies under the pepper radar a little bit. Double edged sword as well is that often, you know, like me, um I'm a in my past have been too much of a people pleaser. So it's like a real double edged sword is even worse, you know. Mm hmm.
00:28:48
Speaker
you know, as long as you, yeah you know, we gas gas lit, you know, and you go on on and on, sometimes for months or even years, we've suddenly, you know, pop out the other end and start seeing, recognize what's actually happening. Yeah, no, I mean, you know, that's that that's the thing. I mean, even, you know, when you have a have a nice signal when you're, when you're a son or a daughter of a of a narcissist in in in the family.
00:29:23
Speaker
yeah all all All of that, all of that you know they know so much about you. They know all the buttons to push. right They can control you. You're stuck in the house. They will turn everyone against you. They know exactly how to manipulate you.
00:29:47
Speaker
Um, oh boy, you know, um, yeah.
Types of Narcissists: Grandiose and Covert
00:29:52
Speaker
Uh, anyway, so there are, let's go to some types of narcissists according to Melissa Proscu psych ID. Um, so, so there is a whole bunch and I think it's kind of, kind of just kind of worth going through just to kind of of go, Oh, you know, do, you do, do you, the listener recognize any, any, any of these.
00:30:15
Speaker
um, people, um, in your life. So one, the first one is the, is the, the, the grandiose, this, this, this is the classic, this is the stereotypical one that you think of. Um, you know, they're arrogant, they're entitled, they're charming, they're grandiose, superficial vein, right? That that's what you, that's what you think of them, you know, and and they can be quite charming and successful.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah. Trouble comes to mind, you know, it's classic. Right. And when these individuals are disappointed, they exhibit rage. I mean, you know, they, they, they get very angry. Yeah. um Then there's the kind of, then there's one that's more like my, my mum. So this is the covert narcissist. Yes. This is where.
00:31:14
Speaker
they they they don't have that necessarily have that big. grandiosity, but it it is more about a lack of empathy and entitlement, hypersensitivity, passive aggressive behavior, yeah with resentment, insecurity, low levels of self-esteem. I've dealt with narcissists in my life. I've also dealt with passive aggressive people. I have to say, passive aggressive, one of the most difficult things I've ever tried, to have ever had to manage in my life.
00:31:46
Speaker
and people So, okay. Covert losses. Yeah. It's very difficult because when it's, it's very difficult, especially if you have autistic traits as well, to kind of like decode that. Right. When someone's being passive because it's like, yeah. It's like, wrap it in a head slide, say, what the fuck? You know? It's just like, I don't understand. What the hell? Right. um like yeah I mean, so these,
00:32:18
Speaker
cool. You know, yeah, I'd rather deal with deal with someone's like, ah you know, overtly narcissist, personally.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, so this person ah frequently engages in projection. um so for And will accuse the other person um that they're talking to as being the aggressive one instead of their own behaviour. So my mum would also would always
Projection and Blame in Narcissistic Relationships
00:33:00
Speaker
do this. So when my brother lost his temper,
00:33:03
Speaker
um at her, which was so, so rare, like, like, a can it was probably like one of the few times that he he ever did. It was always, it was always his fault. Everything was his fault. Right. And then she just used the fact that he snapped as ah she ah ah ah accused him of he wanted to kill her.
00:33:28
Speaker
Right. I would be dead if, if I didn't protect myself, he was going to kill me. Right. Wow.
00:33:37
Speaker
this is someone who who who has never lost his temper at her but but just did and then just shouting at him and then you know ask him a question about him before he was a bad person when did you give when did you give your mum the the name of narcissism how far back does that go oh well yeah because
00:34:06
Speaker
That's the question, right? is the is that So this type of narcissism is more likely to be associated with an abusive childhood. And we'll kind of come on to have a hat how you create a narcissist. and But but but But yeah, so likely, I think I have to kind of go back to her parents. So she was the youngest of two daughters. um her Her elder her her older sister was a lot older. um And she left home at the first opportunity that she had to kind of get out. why ah She went out and then she she left.
00:34:54
Speaker
her um alone with mum and mu with her mum and dad. Now she always said that she didn't have much relationship with her dad, but she loved her mum to bits. And I still can't quite work out which of those two by it was. um isis yeah I so i so ah suspect it was ah suspect it was the mum, to be honest, but honestly,
00:35:24
Speaker
um Yeah, but I think that knowing that a narcissist doesn't, doesn't ah yeah ah you don't choose narcissism, you you know,
00:35:39
Speaker
ah well, you choose it when you're so young the the the that that you don't really know what you know, it's a way to kind of get through of, of you know, of of of of a trauma of ah of a trauma- traumatic experience when you yeah and so she effectively didn't choose it. So that was the that's where like I got to, if we want to kind of close off on on my mom, it's, it's that I kind of went no contact with her,
00:36:17
Speaker
pretty much my brother is currently no contact with her at all, um very rare. um And I just came to a place where I just felt sorry for her, kind of, you know, it was a thing that that she didn't want. It's a waste of it. ship, you know, um hand of cards, is that the expression to be dealt with? Yeah. You know, it is. I mean, God, I mean, you miss out not just miss out on the most precious things in life. And ah in that respect, I do really feel sorry for them, you know,
00:37:00
Speaker
toism to a certain extent, you know, there's a limit to ah sympathy or empathy. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So OK.
Toxic Narcissism: Charm and Manipulation
00:37:12
Speaker
So let's get on to the next type, which is the malignant um ah narcissist. this This is the most toxic.
00:37:21
Speaker
type of all narcissism. So this is someone who takes the the gandios narcissist, so they're kind of quite, you know, um you know, big personality, charming, but they have this kind of exploitative, antagonistic, Machiavellian, almost like psychopathic overlay.
00:37:49
Speaker
um yeah they they they They drive people to the to the edge and then leave them feeling betrayed, fearful, and manipulated, tricked. um you know they they They appear quite charming, but they don't have any remorse whatsoever.
00:38:06
Speaker
um yeah is it So they build a power in the relationship and then they just and then then they just abuse it. um yeah They just see people as a means to it to an end. and yeah And these people are scary to try and leave because um this you know they fear of what they might do. So if you, if you leave them, you know, they, they will, you kind of think what this person is going to wreak havoc in my life. If I, if I, if I leave or, or they get desperate.
00:38:51
Speaker
That worked.
00:38:54
Speaker
Right. The other type is is the communal type. Now this is a tactic that the the that my mum used. So she was a nurse. She was like you know she came over as a caring person and see yeah and later in her life she would join animal help groups and she would foster dogs and she was all part part of that but really all all of this kind of came from this this this communal narcissist and type which is someone who engages in in these kind of do good things to make them feel yeah like feel better and say there you go you know i told you i was a good person
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, I know they're, they're all about, well, yeah, cause they're all about what they do for others and the less fortunate and charity. Yeah. And then they draw attention.
00:40:04
Speaker
to what the good that they do so they can sit back and they expect to validation from so others. Yeah. And we like we're saying before, you know, the narcissism often is very concentrated and focused on sometimes ah one, but maybe only two people in their lives. And to everyone else, they just seem like charming and, you know, generous people.
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, like, yeah, so outside of the home, they could be this, you know, this very all altruistic person who who just wants the kind of best for for for the world, but then at home, they are the opposite, the complete opposite. Yeah.
00:40:58
Speaker
um
00:41:01
Speaker
There is also a um I'm gonna go on to, ah there are other other types, I'm gonna skip to the to the generational narcissist, or the cultural narcissist.
Cultural and Historical Roots of Narcissism
00:41:16
Speaker
Now this is, ah this may not even necessarily be a narcissist type. So this is, okay it's a form of narcissism kind of. So so this is when,
00:41:34
Speaker
So when you think back to your parents or your grandparents, you, you kind of go, well, yeah, this is what the world was like then, right? This is what it was. This is, this is how everyone was. Um, and it kind of, uh, so the times that people were in or your parent was in or whatever, um, that ends up creating a trauma from their life that feels narcissistic that almost becomes like like narcissism.
00:42:17
Speaker
So for example, so where's your parents or whatever your grandparents could have been kind of come out of and it typically comes out of this kind of have or have not meant ah have or have not cultures. So if you're if you lack money or so social or social status or as a result of racism or colonialism or, you know, you have this insecure, this insecurity in you about these things that you need, right? Money, social status or whatever. So narcissism becomes an adaptive trait.
00:42:56
Speaker
um So that you can keep power so that, you know, yeah. So that you can try and keep your social status. And and and it ends up the that your behaviors end up lack empathy or.
00:43:12
Speaker
you know, and you can dehumanize other people and treat them as indispensable as a means to an end. Right. No, I mean, often it's like, it's like, if you if you go to the narcissist, and you don't have any other, you don't have maybe positive examples that you see in your daily life about how to manage difficult situations, you're going to grow up copying what you see and what you you see actually seems to work, you know, to survive. A bit like love, you know, if you grew up in a loveless family, you don't you don't you've never seen any good example of love. is how do you How could you live that a out? How can you live out a good example of love?
00:43:58
Speaker
right yeah yeah so if yeah so if you've had an important person in your life parent grandparent that that displays these narcissistic traits you know through purely through a tough childhood the themselves but not not may not necessarily be are be narcissist but it could be but the trauma feels like it then yes so that affects the the next chi chi chi the next generation, right? Which brings me to narcissists in the family. Narcissists in the family. Sounds like a jingle. Yeah, it should be. yeah We should just definitely have a narcissist in the family jingle. Yeah. And that's because that's where you get, you know, what you're talking about, this intergenerational trauma and narcissistic abuse. And they're both too complicated and
00:44:59
Speaker
interact in interconnecting issues that can have a big profound and impact on people. So yeah, so when I'm talking about intergenerational trauma, I'm gonna say so this refers to the transmission of trauma from one generation to the next through patterns of behavior and belief and attitudes that are passed down through the family, right. So if you do have a narcissist in your family, ah as you say, you can kind of like, oh, is that how adults are? Is that how I'm supposed to be? And you mimic your parents. And right um and then the other one is the narcissistic abuse on the other hand, is a form of emotional and psychological abuse that is characterized by a pattern of manipulation, control and exploitation with someone with a narcissistic personality disorder.
Generational Transmission of Narcissistic Traits
00:45:53
Speaker
So that's that's the pure narcissist in the family thing. um just can You can see how you know if you if there's a pattern of narcissism and family, you know and let's face it, you know the easiest way to respond to react to a narcissist is to copy them. If you haven't had an up an alternative kind of example that's more positive in your life,
00:46:22
Speaker
And so it can, it could you know, could as you say, the pattern can go go on through generations. At some point, you know, someone pops up, you know, second, third or fourth generation said, no, i'm gonna I'm not going to have, it's going to stop with me, you know. But that takes a lot of courage.
00:46:44
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. Oh yeah, narcissists are particularly ah particularly difficult to get away from, especially if you're if you fear them or that if they're your family, because because society places so much emphasis on You know, the family is, is, is everything and you should be there for your family. But, but when one, but, but when the family's, uh, you know, is actually toxic, yeah you know, no, you know, like you, have to get out, but you, it's you know, like, like I did, I had to abandon every, um, every family member that I had, I had to pretty much abandoned, right?
00:47:35
Speaker
as a person, and it and it wasn't until my brother,
00:47:40
Speaker
um his with ah his relationship with with mum broke down that I could go, that that that I had a way in, and I could go, hey, bro.
00:47:51
Speaker
um all this stuff that is happening this this is why right and then he and then the penny would would start to drop right and he would he would fight everything go no no no he didn't like that and then at some point he'd go oh yeah no it's exactly like like that um And that took a while. And then i I, you know, I'm the black sheep of the family. I turn him into a black sheep of the family. And then we start talking about our mum to other people. And then we all start becoming black sheep of the family. And my mum's the only sheep left. by She's the only, and she becomes the black sheep.
00:48:34
Speaker
Like yeah it's taken that process has taken, you know, a good, a good 10 years. Yeah.
00:48:47
Speaker
And apparently, once there's a narcissist, always a narcissist, you know, they don't change their spots. Generally, I once heard a psychologist say, to suggest to people um that um ah if you're in a toxic narcissist, besides a relationship, she said, there's nothing I can do for you, get out of it.
00:49:11
Speaker
originally that black and white for her. Obviously it's different for sons and daughters, but in relationships, she just said, get out of it. I've have heard other psychologists say, I've had g narcissists as a patient. um And there's not much you can do with them.
00:49:33
Speaker
No. It's very rare to turn it around. It's very extremely rare. Right. And I know that there are people in therapy for it who do seek help, but they are yeah the very rare for you. And if you suspect someone in your relationship who is is a narcissist, then my My gut reaction is always get out, get out, get out, get out, get out or at get out. what there There are some really good books out there about narcissism. So once you give it a name, get informed about it and then you can see it. You see the pattern, understand how to deal with it or instead how
00:50:14
Speaker
the but of um yeah yeah Get informed as well. You know, don't just like make a plan. You're fucking not protecting yourself. My life, you know, it could be something else.
00:50:27
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I'm all for getting a plan together, protecting yourself. And then one day you just change the bank. You just move money. You just grab your passports. You grab the and yeah you get the stuff that you need and you get out.
Control and Manipulation in Narcissistic Families
00:50:42
Speaker
Especially for women, but not exclusively.
00:50:46
Speaker
I don't know. So right, because like, yeah, so I was talking earlier about, you know, that my mum could not hold any nuanced perception of people, you know, like, they were either all good, or they were all bad. Right.
00:51:09
Speaker
and generally, they just, ah she she she couldn't ever see like two two sides of the, and the of a ah of an another she she couldn't hold two sides of an argument in her head at the same time. It was either like one or the all or or or or the other. yeah um And
00:51:32
Speaker
that. And in so in the end, what you end up with is that if you're a ah child of a narcissism is that you end up being either the golden child or the scapegoat. You you end up being one of those two. and And for most of my life, I was the golden child. So if you're the golden child, you're, you're, you're idealized. Um,
00:51:59
Speaker
And you will tend to ally with with with the narcissist parent. um you know so i'll So I'll go, yeah, my mum's my favourite, right? So that's how it how it was. Which is why I think when my mum says that her mum was her favourite, I'm thinking, yeah, yeah that that's why I'm thinking that it was her mum that was the... um that was the problem. It's very common to protect those people because that's the ultimate um um the ultimate kind of disloyalty towards a Nazi's parents is to call them out or even recognize them. So just to play their game in the end and put them on a pedestal. Oh, absolutely.
00:52:47
Speaker
Yes. So as as as the golden child, you you then have to be perfect. Yeah. Which if you have ADHD means, you know, like if it becomes a lot of pressure on you to be like the perfect kid. Right. To be. Yeah. To to do everything well, to be a good reflection of your mum, of your parent, of your dad or who or or whoever it is. Towed the line. um yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So that, yeah, because if you're a good kid, then then that means that the parent is a good parent. Right. Yeah. And they want everyone to think they are a good parent. So so there's a lot of pressure to put on on on on your on your kid. And the problem for the golden child is that their real self, the real kind of self, if you like, is not
00:53:46
Speaker
is not accepted by the the parent. like The narcissistic parent doesn't want the real you to come out. They want you to be a little mini me of the narcissist. my my My mum would say,
00:54:05
Speaker
She knew exactly what I was thinking up until a certain point in my life when I when i broke free. But up until then, she she felt like I was her. yeah She would dress me up as a girl when I was really young. There's a photo of me in a dress.
00:54:27
Speaker
why
00:54:29
Speaker
Because she wanted me to be her. wow so so the the the fact that i didn't get accepted as a parent this this creates a split in the golden child right so
00:54:51
Speaker
you can either become one of two things you you you either become this what they call the the impaired self or the narcissistic adapted self so the impaired self is when the parent projects onto the child the unwanted aspects of themselves like helplessness and and and like hopelessness you know the uh yeah when the child tries to become their own self it it will be attacked by the by the yeah pair exactly absolutely so you end up feeling like an impaired person you you feel you're the problem you know you feel bad you feel shame you feel weak um
00:55:34
Speaker
you know and and And you end up kind of like just going like totally inside you and and you and you actually require other people too to process feelings for them. it's like It's like you just kind of split from from the real you and you don't yeah And you need other people to kind of like um process the world for you. Yeah. but this It sounds like yeah, there's a lot to do with that. They lose the ability um of actually developing their own reactions to to things and they have to copy other. Right. Because they've never been taught how to.
00:56:23
Speaker
Right. So I, I would feel like, like, that's the side that I went down from, from golden child did to an impaired self where, you know, where my sense of shame and feeling weak and all of that and people pleasing and work. And so that all kind of like that syncs up with that side. now the Now the other side, which I think is where my mum went down is a narcissistic adapted self.
00:56:53
Speaker
So this is where the child feels that the abandonment, the did depression and fights back by creating a grandiose false self, which is admired by the narcissistic parent. Right. So it's like, Oh, okay. I will just mimic, I will just be like a manifestation of their yeah of what you they want from you.
00:57:19
Speaker
right so that they that end up like they they they mirror the perfect narcissist adapted yeah um they so so they mirror it back to the parents so it's like a defense right so it's like i'll put this mirror up that i'll hide behind that is me that that they like you know and the problem is is that that mirroring dynamic is one of the best definitions I've ever heard of narcissism, that they need to produce like someone who will mirror their own deepest fears. Yeah. um And then this person could and then only have relationships based on being able to maintain that narcissistic diff diff defense. So they end up just looking like a narcissist
00:58:16
Speaker
and behaving like one because because that was their way through having a narcissistic parent themselves was just a copy. and so yeah As we were saying, that causes all kinds of problems. now So the the the other one, so as as we were saying, ah if you have a narcissistic parent, you're you're either good or bad, you're either the golden child or you're the the these the scapegoat. um And I turned into the scapegoat.
00:58:50
Speaker
So I started off as golden and I turned into this person, you know where I am devalued, seen as the cause of all of the family problems.
Growth from Being a Scapegoat
00:59:03
Speaker
um And this, you know, this leads to kind of complex PTSD, chronic people pleasing co-dependency, you know, other than other personality disorders. Plus, you know, it's, it's, it's the, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it's the, it's the, it's the better place of the two, as far as I'm concerned, because at least Well, I ended up being golden child, self-impaired golden child and then ended up being scapegoat. um And I managed to kind of get out of it just by...
00:59:41
Speaker
I think when, when, when everyone read read rejects you, you end up forcing yourself to find out who you are as a person. Right. You kind of go, well, okay. Everyone, everyone has disowned me. Yeah. I mean, yeah. All right. I'm on my own now. Who am I? Like can this, like through the back door, yeah there's actually something positive it came out. Yeah.
01:00:11
Speaker
You know? And as I've seen with my brother... how You know, like when he started to see the the narcissism and went, oh, God, yeah, it meant I could recruit him. Right. So so the scapegoat is the only person who is able to stop the generational trauma that they can. yeah The only ones who can see what is going on, they're the only ones that actually have the power to do anything.
01:00:45
Speaker
but So the the narcissistic parent will not like the scapegoat because the problem, you know, and they'll push them away and they'll they turn the family against them. Betrayal. The ultimate betrayal, isn't it? Right. If you're not mirroring, you'll betray. it's also And right. And it's a defense for the narcissist to kind of push that person away and to everyone to push that person away. But actually it gives them the opportunity, the power to see what's going on and to and if they choose to, to do something about it. And it's taken me ah years, but slowly I've pulled people into
01:01:30
Speaker
um what is really going on and I've, you know. um because It's really hard taking on a narcissist. It's fairly isolated. Yeah. It's hard. It takes a long time. They're really good at what they do. I mean, really good, right?
01:01:50
Speaker
Yeah. My mum's a bit stupid. Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, she's she's a narcissist, but I say, you know, like i've i i've I say this, which is like. She is a very good at one thing, a very narrow thing, which is like projecting a version of herself to the outside world and then okay i mean and segregating people off.
01:02:26
Speaker
into high lows, she doesn't want people congregate, you know, any family members herding up to together. She will bad mouth everyone to everyone so that in her mind, people will like not trust anyone, right, except her, right. So she will segregate everyone out. That way she can keep everyone in line, right.
01:02:54
Speaker
And that world building in her head is the only thing that she's good at. Everything else, she's stupid. She's shes not intelligent at all. um But in that very narrow area, she is king. And you and you can't as you were saying, it's very difficult to fight against someone. When when that thing, when that game is their life,
01:03:20
Speaker
Right. And they know it so well. They are like master chess champions. All right. Yeah. They will, they will outmaneuver you and you can't, it's not good to necessarily fight them at their own game. You need another way. Which goes back to what I was saying about some psychologist saying, if you're in a relationship that you can't get out of, you won't, you won't win it. No. No. No.
01:03:49
Speaker
um All right, so I hope that's been quite, I mean, it's it's a big subject. I'm sure we will come back to it. um yeah But I was just thinking, now it's probably, I don't know if it now seems to be a good point to like mention Gabo Matei's kind of view on this, that he thinks that ADHD only comes out, is is actually, is purely um trauma management and is not genetic at all.
01:04:18
Speaker
I think he's wrong. The first time I heard that, I thought he might be right, and then I've, that those was about 12 years ago, read 12 years ago, or 12 months ago, read his book and everything. Then after that, got a day ADHD diagnosis. so I think my personal view on it is,
01:04:35
Speaker
ADHD is 100% genetic, if not, it's 90%. But you know, um and actually the problem from from from I think is that um if you have a narcissism in your life, in your your history, especially in your developing years, so it can um make your ADHD a lot more difficult.
01:05:02
Speaker
you know, a lot more difficult to manage. And I think the two, I don't think it's black and white. I think it's that they they actually, you know, live with or ADHD, and you have to deal with it. not
01:05:19
Speaker
that way worse than it needs to be. You know, oh, yeah, yeah, no, I've already got people pleasing, just one subject, one example, if you're if you've got, ah you know, propensity to be a people pleaser, and you got to deal with a narcissistic parent.
01:05:38
Speaker
Yep. No, I, I
01:05:43
Speaker
I've, it's, you know, I think back about me and I think, good Lord, how, how did I manage to even get through to where I am now? Because, because if you've got ADHD or your, your out LDHD and you've got a, you're dealing with narcissism in the family, yeah it feels like how,
01:06:10
Speaker
it i i i'm it's It's a real struggle. And unless you're there, and I know some people I know are there, you don't realize how unbelievably scarring and difficult life becomes and how weird and you just think that you're like the worst person on the earth. And and the thing is, is you end up doing bad things, you know, like relationships and breaking up and causing harm in your life because you're kind of
01:06:43
Speaker
because of of all this stuff and you think well okay i am that bad i am that horrible because look at my life look at the carnage look at the yeah the devastation i've left but behind it's not until later that you kind of go oh hang on a sec hang on a sec it's it's not me it this is just me trying to trying to get, survive, survive in a narcissistic family when everyone's against you. And you did what you could with the tools that you had, you know. Right. And there were shitty tools until, until I managed to, to, to make better tools. Right. So when you get a flat patch from Ikea and all you've got is like a, is a, is a, is an allergy, you know,
01:07:38
Speaker
right Right. And what you want is a sword. You want a sword or a hammer.
01:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, yeah so, ah you know, like, I ah i could go on, but ah but I will just close it out by saying, think of a narcissist as, as you say, there is just a little voice in there somewhere, a little early voice, a little child voice inside them that knows
01:08:11
Speaker
that what they are doing is wrong but that voice is tiny and in fact what the narcissist is mostly is just an outward projection of a personality that they've managed to cobble together from their childhood and other people and friends and things that they've managed to kind of build this facade of a real person when in fact it's it's not there that there is no one there and that if you like this
Dealing with Narcissists: Safety and Strategy
01:08:46
Speaker
is house of cards and if you threaten to knock it over
01:08:51
Speaker
They will, they will come at you with everything they've got because they are basically in fear of their own lives. Like ah a narcissistic, you know, not like they've got nothing left. There's nothing left. No, got that no. If, if you attack them, if you attack them, they will come after you with everything they've got. Yeah.
01:09:15
Speaker
So I generally don't advise ever attacking or confronting or even picking apart their lies in front of them. It is very better to just ignore, go away, make a plan, do something else. Like trying to fight it. As I said, it's their ninja game. Um, and you will lose, you will lose if you fight it.
01:09:45
Speaker
Just go somewhere else. In in time, you will be slightly more sympathetic. You go, okay, right, well, it's a childhood trauma that they had.
01:10:00
Speaker
that we you know that they didn't choose. And so I feel sorry for them. So my mum is on a deathbed currently. she will She will be dead um you know this year for sure.
01:10:14
Speaker
um If she sees Christmas, it will be ah it'll be something. um And I'm okay with with that. I feel sorry for her that she had the life that she had, but she thinks some she mostly thinks that the life that she had was a genuine life.
01:10:35
Speaker
when it wasn't really, you know, she... Empathy is really hard when you're talking about narcissism, but if you do find empathy, the only thing is that really it's like, I feel really sorry for them because they miss out on the best things in life, you know, empathy.
01:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah no it's i yeah i i I end up feeling sorry for them, but I still keep them. That doesn't mean that I accept them. you know My mum will always be my my mum, but yeah she will there will always be, you know, I've put a lot of distance between me and me and her and that I'll be fine when she's gone.
01:11:27
Speaker
Yeah, I've often noticed that distance is the only way of dealing with them. Yeah. All right. How to spot a narcissist if you have ADHD? You can zip through these.
01:11:42
Speaker
um So yeah, so as we' we're saying, if you have ADHD, you can be susceptible to a narcissist or if you're a son or a daughter of a Narcissists still applies. So number one, look for signs of manipulation because narcissists will use clever manipulation to meet their own needs at the expense of yours or other people.
01:12:13
Speaker
to notice that lack of and empathy, we were talking about this earlier, right, a defining feature of them is a lack of empathy for others feelings different from, and which is different from ADHD, emotional dysregulation, which we talked about his last week. Yeah.
01:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, ah number three observe the need for attention now sister will often seek attention and admiration to validate their self esteem contrasting with ADHD individuals who might seek interaction due to impulsivity.
01:12:51
Speaker
So, you know, as, as an ADHD, you know, we might, uh, you know, we might seek, well, seek interactivity, seek interaction due to impulsivity. Also, as I said earlier, due to, you might just be low to dopamine and kind of need a, you just bored. You just like, you just want attention. Um, whereas a narcissist will be all about it for, um, you know, just to validate their own self self-esteem.
01:13:22
Speaker
Number four, look for in signs signs of entitlement. So entitlement is a key symptom of narcissism, ah you involves unreasonable expectations of so especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with a narcissist expectations. They expect you to behave how they want you to behave.
01:13:50
Speaker
um And and we ah with no empathy towards you or what you want. It's about your compliance with them. um Notice their lack of accountability.
01:14:05
Speaker
ability you know They rarely accept blame, um off often kind attributing faults or failures to external factors or others. This is my my mum never accepted blame for nothing. Absolutely. um Right. And they will only accept blame, I think, in when things get really, really bad and and everything's fallen apart. The best my mum could manage was, well, six and one half dozen of the other. Let's just call it even and we'll people we we just yeah forget about it and move on. right That was the best that she could do.
01:14:48
Speaker
was was was just to admit equal blame. right so that and then And they just bury the whole thing. um But I know that another one is that sometimes a narcissist will um well If they're really trapped, they would go, Oh yeah, it's all my fault. It's all my fault. And they will accept the blame. But then pretty soon after that, they will start to kind of build themselves back up again and, and, uh, and start explaining it all the way to, you know, other things. It's always, um, if they it will turn into some form of manipulation, whatever it is.
01:15:33
Speaker
Yes. and and the and the And the whole, if an narcissist accepts blame, it's just another, as you say, it's another manipulative thing. They're just saying it just to get you off there off off their back.
01:15:51
Speaker
Um, and then the the last one that I added in, which was, uh, and an assumption that everyone's motives are like their, their own. Like they think that other people think like them. So for example, if, if I, if I did a kind thing, if I did a nice thing for someone, you know, if you have ADHD and someone's in in trouble, right? You kind of go, Oh, well, I'll help you out. I'll help you out somehow.
01:16:20
Speaker
And the narcissist will then say, well, what did you gain? yeah ah You just did that so that you would look good, right? they they They couldn't see that I would just do it out of kindness. They would yeah they would think that I was getting something out of it.
01:16:42
Speaker
got it ya and then
01:16:45
Speaker
that's, you know, like, so they assume that everyone thinks like, like them. They can't understand. There are different wavelengths, right? And they don't understand this, you know, everyone's on, I think everyone's on FM, you know, when actually, you know, there's a hell of a lot of people out there that are on long wave and medium wave and short wave. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't. Yeah, we, yeah.
01:17:15
Speaker
Yeah, no. All right. All right. Cool. Yeah. I mean, it is definitely, if you if you think that you have a narcissist in your life, yeah. get yeah Do your research um You can't confront them. this This isn't a thing to confront someone with. It's just a thing to kind of go, oh, okay, this person feels like they are they have um narcissistic personality disorder um and then and then act and then kind of work out how you are going to kind of protect yourself and make sure that you're okay because
01:18:04
Speaker
because generally, apart from my dad, who was I said was a autistic and just seemed to manage to find a managed to find a relationship that worked. um Yeah, but I mean, he wasn't he wasn't emotionally there for me or for anyone. So I think that my mum could keep him in line.
01:18:32
Speaker
because because he was he was he had his little special interests but but outside of that you know yeah he wasn't yeah he was he was a really nice guy as well he was just a really really nice guy that I i think just ended up ended up with my mum.
01:18:53
Speaker
who yeah which is is these These discussions, you know, we really, it's like, it's like parenthood, you know, when my parents or your parents when they were first started up, started having a family, there's no concept of parenthood. It's only now we've become, you know, more informed. And luckily, in you know, we've become more informed, we've become educated. Your dad didn't, you know, it didn't even know that there was a name for it, you know, probably. Yeah. You know, yeah. And people were just more in those days, said there's a huge difference in our last last couple of generations. People just, they're a lot, you know, in the past, more than we do now, you know,
01:19:41
Speaker
Yeah. So someone with MPPD could definitely hide a lot better in the in the past. And as I said, there is a narcissist, there's a questionable narcissistic type, which is the generational type, which is basically the narcissistic traits that come out of, you know, someone, a product of their time. I think as children from narcissistic parents, they just like
01:20:14
Speaker
Well, a choice now.
01:20:21
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Okay. Okay. All right. So let's draw a line under that, I think. um I think we'll so we'll we'll skip reading out comments if that's cool, because this has already been quite quite long. It's quite a long one.
01:20:42
Speaker
Um, but, uh, I think it's been worth, worth time being spent on this. Um, no, definitely, definitely. And definitely from a, you know, in terms of confusing ADHD, a lot of other issues as well, but, you know,
01:20:58
Speaker
confusing ADHD and and ah with narcissism, it's definitely worth avoiding. you know We could all you know be more informed definitely on many subjects. Absolutely. All right, so I'm going to hit the outro.
01:21:19
Speaker
and just say that ADHD Ville is thank you for, thank if you've got this far, thank you so much. ADHD Ville is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all purveyors of fine podcasts. Please subscribe. um yeah And I've lost the script. Please exclamation mark.
01:21:47
Speaker
And feel free to correspond at will in the comments. Another escalation mode. But wait, there's more, says Martin. More!