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265- We didn't have mental wellbeing in my day...
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In a social justice movement where we work tirelessly for innocent sentient beings, it can be tempting to become martyrs that don't consider our own needs. But Dr Ishani Rao would argue that this isn't what is best for animals. Kate & Ant talk to the author of 'Choosing Compassion' (Mark's Pick of the week a couple of months back) about using self-care to harness the power of our incredibly motivated activist community.
For more on Ishani's work, check out her link-tree: https://linktr.ee/drishanirao
To buy her excellent book, visit https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/ChoosingCompassion
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
Like what we do? Want it to sound even better? Consider donating to our ko-fi page https://ko-fi.com/ENOUGHOFTHEFALAFEL
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Ishani, Kate & Ant
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Transcript
Introduction of the Episode and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody! Now, as vegans, we're choosing compassion all the time, right? But does that mean sometimes we need to choose ourselves over the animals? What? What's going on? Anyway, we'll get into it. I'm Anthony, and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm delighted to also be joined by Kate and Ishani.
00:00:21
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butt is used for. Brrr! Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:33
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry? True education. younger generation are getting know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems of thinking.
00:00:45
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold,
Challenges in Vegan Activism
00:00:49
Speaker
maybe. Any form of social interaction.
00:00:55
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:04
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Yay! hello all our lovely listeners. It's Kate here with you today. Thank you for joining in with our Vegan Talk episode. It's great that you're here. Indeed. Died in the wool, that's not a very vegan phrase, is Died in the wool listeners, long-term listeners will recognise my voice and Kate's voice, but you won't recognise Ishani's voice. Let's hear Ishani's voice. Welcome, Ishani, to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I've been really, really looking forward to having this conversation with you both. and So it's a pleasure to be here. And my name's Dr Ishani Rao. Indeed.
00:01:40
Speaker
Thank you for finding the time in your busy, busy schedule. to spend some time chatting to us. Now, we are gonna be talking today, as we always do with a vegan talk episode, about one topic. So like listeners will know, have a weekly news show where we cover the last seven days vegan and animal rights news.
00:01:59
Speaker
Those come out on Monday, but our vegan talk shows, we focus on one particular topic. And for this episode, we're going to be talking about choosing compassion in a way that is looking after ourselves and what the importance of that is, maybe pitfalls that we could fall into as animal advocates,
00:02:21
Speaker
just by doing what we do, choosing those choices on behalf of animals and and that campaigning, there can be some downsides to it if we're not careful. But hopefully by the end of the conversation, we'll have some suggestions and some food for thought as to as to maybe have the best of both worlds here whilst advocating for animals. If we can kick the ball off then. So maybe I'll come to you first, Dushani, but then Kate, feel free to weigh on weigh in on this too.
00:02:49
Speaker
If we came across in the course of, I don't know, having a meal or at an event or doing some activism, or maybe it's our next door neighbor, we came up having a conversation with someone who's been doing animal rights activism for 50 years,
00:03:05
Speaker
And they say words to the effect of all all this self-care, all this molly coddling. We didn't have mental well-being back in my day. We just knuckled down. We just took up the cause for animal rights. And and that was that. We didn't complain. No questions asked.
00:03:21
Speaker
What would you say to someone like that, Ishani, who's put in all that hard work and doesn't see the value or need maybe for self-care, that sort of thing?
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's a brilliant question because I'm sure we actually do see this quite a bit within activism, whether that's vegan activism, animal rights activism, climate activism, or any kind of any kind of minority issues. You do see these tough and seasoned activists who have just cracked on and maybe they've you know been paving the way. for activists like us to start taking up more space as well. and But it doesn't make it easier. it doesn't make the job of ah being an activist any easier.
00:04:04
Speaker
And I think that mental health has been stigmatized for so long, historically, not just within activism spaces, not just within vegan or animal rights spaces. mental health has been stigmatized and it's kind of been a taboo topic that has been swept under the rug and not focused on and now we're kind of seeing the repercussions of that not just you with young people but also with elderly people where isolation depression and it's a real problem and even elderly generations so we're now seeing the repercussions of not having these conversations and it's really really sad to see that within animal rights spaces or vegan spaces when perhaps we are the ones that need those conversations the most. So i do believe that we do need to support each other and to encourage communication because animal rights activism or just existing on a day to day basis It's not particularly easy.
Mental Health and Activism
00:04:58
Speaker
So putting all of that on top of each other as animal rights activists, we really need to be supportive of each other and be listening to each other to find out what we need so that we can stay in activism and stay resilient and stay healthy and focused in the long run. You speak very compellingly, Ishani. Yeah, you you make a really good case for that. I mean, Kate, Ishani's mentioned there, think, like we're we're seeing the impact of of burnout and and and things like that. Is that something that you've witnessed firsthand in in other activists or or possibly even felt yourself? I don't know.
00:05:31
Speaker
Yes, I have witnessed it in other activists and sadly in activists who have been going a long time. I think for some people it just gets to the point and things just say seem to change far too slowly, don't they? We want things to change right away. i think, yeah, it can be really easy to get worn down and think that you're not getting anywhere and I do wonder, actually, also, if I don't know what Ishani thinks, being the expert in this field, whether or not it takes a certain kind of person quite often to become an activist in the first place or even notice that there is a problem.
00:06:16
Speaker
especially in the animal ah advocate field, you know, I just keep coming across people who seem to be a bit more on the neurodiverse spectrum, perhaps have, you know, throughout their lives already felt that they're a little bit out of their comfort zone or maybe a lot out of their comfort zone.
00:06:37
Speaker
and maybe sometimes a bit more used to a more I'm speaking myself here black and white thinking you know gosh that seems wrong I don't want to be a part of that I in fact I'm gonna speak up against it I don't I just wonder Ishani is that your experience too do you think maybe people like that are more drawn to it I think that a really ah useful bit of data is taken from a vegan, global vegan survey a few years ago. And it suggests that 66% of vegans in that survey um had gone vegan for the animals.
00:07:20
Speaker
So this is the majority of people who have chosen to go vegan who are compassionate, naturally more empathetic people. can understand the plight of the animals, want to stand up, want to support, want to want to make our own lives more uncomfortable to protect the animals and to stand up for justice. So I think you're right, is that is it's a specific type of person and with that comes the challenges of maybe being highly sensitive. Maybe you're just more, of course we're gonna be more depressed about the state of the world and what's happening because it's right in front of us and we're trying our very best to try and change it. And like you said, progress is way too slow. So I think you're right, and there most of my friends are neurodivergent, you know, we're all on the spectrum, ADHD, autism, and all of these superpowers, if we channel them well. And so maybe it is a particular type of person that thinks I'm capable of making my own life more uncomfortable and standing up for what I believe in, and for going to the protests and becoming activists and standing up and speaking. for what's right. Maybe it's a particular type of personality. see I know that all my friends are very, very similar. And all of the people that I know, my social social circles within vegan activism, we're all so similar. So it must be a certain type of person that the chooses to advocate for for what we believe and we know to be right.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, certainly sounds possible, doesn't it? And I mean, hopefully that's a ah changing picture as becoming vegan and therefore perhaps later down the line for folk becoming a vegan activist becomes more and more mainstream, then perhaps we will be attracting ah a broader swathe of people to it. ah It strikes me listening to what you're both saying that it's quite important if we possibly can to put our finger on what burnout or other associated mental health challenges might look like. Because if if we don't actually know what these things look like, then we're not going to know we ourselves or those around us are experiencing it. Until it's too late, potentially. So what what sort of things are we talking about? because Because actually, is there a difference between somebody that's burnt out from their activism versus somebody who is feeling quite depressed about the state of the world?
00:09:43
Speaker
Like they strike me as two different things. What are we looking for? Absolutely. So I think that we forget about prevention so much in Western medicine. We have all this open heart surgery and diabetes medications and pain medications, but we're actually forgetting about all of the things that we need to be doing to prevent the development of these diseases so actually if we're doing that and being more aware and being more insightful into our mental health then you're exactly right we need to know what the symptoms are that might just be normal parts of being human it might just be that you're having a bad day or is this that actually i am becoming more chronically and more persistently burnt out to the point where this is now affecting my everyday mood my relationship with work my relationships around me with other people. So what are the symptoms? And it's super variable. So I think we also need to think about this on a one-to-one personalized basis because one person might, for example, start sleeping loads and sleeping for hours and hours and become really fatigued. And one person might develop in insomnia. And that could be, you know, exactly the same kind of indicators that somebody is becoming burnt out, somebody is becoming overloaded mentally and physically. However, they look very, very different. So there's a whole whole spectrum of symptoms, including physical and mental. But I think it's a good way to kind of summarize that would be to say, what is a change from your baseline? You know, how is how have things changed? How would you have felt when you were at your happiest compared to how you're feeling today. Of course, work is stressful for all of us. Nobody wants to have to liberate animals. And all of this, it comes with its challenges. So it's not to say that we're always going to have this toxic positivity kind of um attitude to to mental health. However, we need to be thinking about all of the indicators and thinking about actually, do you need to be worried about somebody around you as well? Maybe if you notice that somebody's behaviors have changed, maybe they're more withdrawn, more social, drinking more, gambling, um ah late to work, not able to commit to previous um previous commitments or previous kind of responsibilities. Depression is a kind of symptom of burnout, not enjoying things that you previously enjoyed. feeling anxious, feeling irritable, lashing out, feeling tearful, chronic pain, pain and pressure pressure and tension manifested in your jaws and your neck and your lower back, palpitations, anxiety, nausea. So now we're talking about the gut brain axis and the relationship with what we're eating and our mental health. So there's so many different symptoms, but I think a good way to indicate would be a change from your baseline or are you worried about that person around you? Would you be worried if that was a friend of yours?
00:12:20
Speaker
You know, can you emphasize with yourself but say if that that behavior has changed, I'm worried about it, then maybe we should be a bit more a bit more aware of what's going on in our own bodies and
Transforming Negativity into Constructive Activism
00:12:30
Speaker
minds.
00:12:31
Speaker
Wow, goodness me. What a font of knowledge you are, Ishani. I'm so glad we've got you to to to speak with us about this topic. ah Kate, i'm I'm wondering, so when Ishani's giving that list there, I'm remembering folk that have been in my life at various points, you know, fellow vegans and noticing some of those changes. I think i think the one that stands out for me most it is is more, ah i can think of a couple of folk that,
00:12:59
Speaker
and their general outlook on the world if you like seemed to really darken over a ah a period and and just seemed to be that the word i'd use is misanthropic so just not feeling good about the human species and you sort of saw that as ah as a bit of a trend and with with one of them actually i knew better than the other i was able to say it like may may i just give you an observation and you can shoot me down but like it feels to me like you you're seeing the world a bit like this at the moment is that fair to say i just wonder kate from your experience you're you're often doing all sorts of different activism and coming into contact with different groups of of animal advocates have you seen examples of these things and i understand if you didn't want to share any of those that would be understandable too
00:13:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, um I'm sure we all have. And and that's why Ishani's chosen to to share her knowledge in the form of a book. Thank you so much. But yeah, I'm thinking of people that are putting like 250% of their time, their effort,
00:14:05
Speaker
into all the time just um confrontational activism, you know, where they're up front, whatever, vigils, you know, sitting in supermarkets, you know, with the sides. I mean, this is like, it seems to me kind of,
00:14:24
Speaker
I'm not judging them. I think, wow, amazing. But at the same time, sometimes there seems to be, they just they've got an anger with them as well. you know what I mean? And it's like a desperation. and and I think, I mean, we can all identify that with that, I think. But...
00:14:43
Speaker
sometimes just somehow it's like overtaking all their life and just seems to suck any like joy out of their life um like i just want to kind of give them a hug and say look it's okay just you know step down a little bit from time to time go and do something for yourself it's it's but it's really hard isn't it to talk to somebody in that way I wonder as well, like it's, ah people have different um lifestyles and different wiring. We've already spoken about different people's neurology and different body chemicals. And so it, it could be the case that what seems like completely way out, ridiculous, like quite manic behavior to to one person, actually to the person themselves might be like, no, this is, this is fine. Like um I can, I'm completely in, in control of that. I really love thinking about this topic because I think anger is such a powerful driver of action. And there's a really, really good line from the film, The Animal People, about the shack Huntington um Lab liberations.
00:15:53
Speaker
And ah one of the people who was eventually charged um with the Huntington Lab experimentation um protests and everything, he said, don't get sad. get angry and then get even and i love the thought of the concept that we are transforming these negative emotions or perceived negative emotions the anger the sadness the grief because that's there the frustration it's all there um but it's about transforming that and about how we move that and how we become constructive and proactive with that So I think that there's a place for everybody within activism, the angry activists, the ones that are a bit softer, that I think, why you doing more? like I think that there's a place for everybody in within activism. But I do think that if we let that anger sit with us and don't transform those emotions into action, into self-care, into playing the long game, then this is when it becomes really destructive. And then that's a problem that we're seeing with a lot of activism as people are so angry, misanthropic, exactly like you said.
00:16:54
Speaker
And I understand it. We all understand it. What's happening to the animals and the planet and to our biodiversity is barbaric. And we know that. So I understand the frustration. However, I will never let that anger sit with me. I want to transform that, bring people together, build, learn, create, laugh, dance, and be an activist. But it can't come at the detriment of ourselves. No, that's such a good shout. My mind then, it's only went to, and sometimes if you go to ah a vegan festival, like you you might see someone selling t-shirts and some some of the designs for me can be like really sad, like like an animal looking really sad or... or something like that. And I sort of think to myself, everyone's taste is different thinking, gosh, number one, that's not a shirt I would personally wear. Of course, anyone else that wants to, that's fine. But also I i don't think I could bear to create that shirt. Like I don't think I could sit in that sadness, but for some, somebody that is the way that they are transforming their sadness. And like you say, they're turning it into an action, which then speaks to someone else. Clearly not me, but like it's, it's,
00:18:03
Speaker
we can transform these emotions and feelings into into things that improve outcomes for animals, can't we? Totally agree. T-shirts are very individual, aren't they? And, you know, have to say, I kind of cringe a little bit when I see people wearing like death to carnice. think, you know, it's just not necessarily going to be received very well.
00:18:24
Speaker
you know But it might feel great to wear it. It might feel great to wear it. It's true. It's true. Actually, I have got a t t-shirt which says vegan because I give an F, you know. so And my daughter, who is Sharni knows, said, Mum, are you sure you want to wear that? I go, yes, I'm I want to wear that. I love that.
00:18:46
Speaker
like so But yeah, I i was gonna Ashani, but there is something to be said for attractivism, isn't there? Yes. You're somebody who rocks that. I have to say, you're always sparkly. You're always smiling. and And that looks different to different people, doesn't it? you know I think that what's so important to me is really enjoying everything that I'm doing and having fun, but also, you know, not feeling guilty for that because I love you but being a vegan activist. I love buying everything secondhand. I love volunteering. I love, you know, community garden cleanups and ocean conservation. So if you find the things that bring you joy, and I love my ambulance job, I love urgent care. If you find the things that bring you joy, then it doesn't feel like work. And I genuinely,
00:19:35
Speaker
I love this journey. It's not an easy journey. And again, it's got its challenges which are immense. And everybody in the activism community is doing so much in our own different ways. And I wish everybody knew that it could be fun to use your voice for the animals to speak up for justice. It can be so much fun. You find your community, you find your friends, you find your people. and I want people to know that there can be so much joy in activism, but we also need to take the time to step back, rest, eat well, do the things that you love as well, don't lose what makes you you and your hobbies and your interests. and We have to find a sense of balance so that we can stay motivated in activism. But yes, I love the term attractivism. activist Doug Moore, he's the one that taught me that word and I think it's so brilliant because when people see us healthy, happy, having fun, and doing good deeds, they want to join us, they want to join you Kate with the Vegan Runners. When I see you guys running past with your Vegan Runners t-shirt, I want to be that, I want to be strong, I want to have discipline. So it's completely about attractivism and i I love bringing people in that way and showing them that life should be fun as well. Veganism is not taking away anything from you.
00:20:46
Speaker
It's about giving back what was never yours in the first place.
Preventing Burnout in Activism
00:20:49
Speaker
Absolutely. It's also about track to think ah attracting people with our fabby vegan food and all of that as well, isn't it? Yeah, and at the vegan camp out. We've got the best vegan festivals. You know, it's so much fun. Yeah, indeed. It feels like we're starting to talk now more about proactive things we can do. Like we we started off talking about noticing things and and perhaps preventing things. Ishani and Kate, you've both spoken there about like what can we fill our lives with or put in our lives and not not quite fill it to the point of exhaustion. But like, are there...
00:21:29
Speaker
Everybody is different, of course, so we can't give generic advice or suggestions. But are are there some pretty fail-safe, proactive things that we can do as people choosing to advocate for animals that can help prevent burnout, that can help achieve ah ah a better sort of mental health balance with what we're doing in a non-vegan world?
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah, so if you buy my book, Choosing Compassion, I've got about 60 ways to live it genuinely. ah Like you said, everybody is different. However, there are some basic things that we can all be doing to try and improve the quality life. of our lives and the quantity right vegans often have a six or so seven year increased life expectancy compared to carnage so it's not just about improving the duration of our life by making healthy brilliant decisions but it's also about a improving the quality of our life and i want us to be more effective at what we're doing not take on more we're already so busy we've already got endless commitments and responsibilities and to-do lists that are growing and jobs to do and activism and volunteering and projects and plans. We've all got an endless to-do list, which is always growing. So I don't want to make anybody's life more busy.
00:22:46
Speaker
I think people can get a bit overwhelmed when I say, well, you know, if you meal prep once or twice a week, then you will be much more efficient. You'll be much healthier. You'll have much more... a balanced diet, you'll be it'll be much better for your wallet. However, people will panic often when you give them a task to do. But I say no, I'm not adding to your to do list, I want to make your life more efficient. So in that time where you've got half an hour when you're scrolling on Instagram, I want you to chop up some vegetables, chop up some tofu, season it, stick it in the oven in half an hour, you've got an amazing meal that you can put into containers for the rest of the week. When you're brushing your teeth in the bathroom, can you be listening to a podcast? Or can you be doing squats or can you be cleaning something? i want everybody's life to be more efficient rather than being busier. and So it would just be using those small micro moments while you're waiting for the kettle to boil to pick up the phone and call a family member that you've wanted to speak to. ah Just kind of utilizing your time so that it is more effective just by doing simple basic things, making time for exercise a few times a week, making sure you're eating at least 10 of your five a day, making sure that you're sleeping well or maybe even putting in catnaps or siestas and making sure that you're
00:24:01
Speaker
staying hydrated, eating enough herbs and teas and and and just enjoying foods and healthy foods. So all of these basic things that we can do that I think we're forgetting to do with the stresses of everyday life. We're all so busy. None of us have enough disposable income to do all the things that we want to do. Everybody is volunteering and working their own job. So it's hard. But my book and my passion is to try and allow activists, specifically vegan activists, because I understand and I empathise with this course with all my heart, and I want us to make our life more efficient so that we feel better and are more productive in the shorter amounts of time. It's very much about working smart and volunteering smart. So yeah, there's lots of things that we can do, which is going back to basics really. exercise, sleep, hydration, relationships, mental health, ah taking a walk outside in between, you know, if you've got desk job, making sure that you get half an hour brisk walk outside, um making sure you're caring for your feet, caring for your teeth, all of these things that are just going to make your life so much better in the long run so that we can be comfortable activists. Wow. Goodness me so much, so much. That's great. I really like that. Kate, I wonder if, has there been a, a thing in your many years of veganism and and activism that you would say over everything else has nudged the needle towards one of, of better wellness or, and, or like Ashani was saying might almost create space or, you know, um, but because it's that effective. I would say first things, my diet being, you know, eating well. And as Shani knows, far more than me about the gut-brain access and the micro but gut microbiome and how it's linked, that in itself is linked to mental well-being
00:25:54
Speaker
um And that has allowed me to do everything else. You know, when I was sick, I could do nothing. Now I can do so much, including running, you know, all those things, keeping fit. That's also good for your mental well-being. So those things in particular, I think, really underpin, um you know, everything else that I do. so yeah. I would say for me, this might sound a bit odd, but having something that is nothing to do with animal rights in my life regularly, you know, because even even running, like I'll be thinking, well, the better I do when it's then an event and I'm wearing my vegan runner's vest, then then I'm repping the animals and everything like that. So having something...
00:26:41
Speaker
ah away from all of that so for me that's morris dancing that has no positive impact on veganism or animal rights at all and it's just a small part of my life but it's just like but because there there will be times every now and then every you know it's it's very infrequent where i might think oh gosh it just feels like every spare minute at the moment i'm doing something for veganism or you know the environment or or something like that and you It's possible in a grumpy moment, maybe a low blood sugar moment to think, you I really resent that, you know, because we have moods, don't we? And so just having something that's, oh no, remember, you do have that thing. You do have that other thing that you do. That for me helps, but it'll be different for everyone. I've got one last question I'd like to put to us and then I would love to hear more about your book, Ishani, and all the other exciting things that you do with your time. I think it could be possible for somebody...
00:27:39
Speaker
who at the moment feels like their balance of um activism and looking after themselves is is how it needs to be.
00:27:49
Speaker
and let's say they're very committed, so they're doing an awful lot for the animals and the vegan cause, they might be forgiven for having the opinion that, well, actually, we're putting too much focus on looking after ourselves.
00:28:08
Speaker
And I've seen people who could be doing a lot more. to promote veganism, to, to advocate for animals. And they're leaning into the message of, oh, it's self-care, it's self-care, it's self-care.
00:28:21
Speaker
And that's why they're not doing more. What would we say to that opinion? Is that reasonable? I think there's a really lovely quote that says, activism is my rent for living on this planet.
00:28:34
Speaker
And I think that all of the time that we spend on the self-care, it should be because we've worked really hard to try and make the world a better place in the meantime. so I think, you know, it took me a long time to say i will start regularly going to the gym or going to get my eyebrows done or just, you know, practicing basic bits of self-care that I but previously perceived to be selfish. And and then I think as i became more tired and became busier and as i you know, had to start thinking about, OK, I'm not 18 anymore, I'm 33. probably should start thinking about actually the type of shoes I'm wearing and, you know, the the amount of water I'm drinking and all of these things which previously i don't it didn't consciously make time for. um And I think that it's really, really important that we are looking after ourselves, but it should be because we are doing something to make the world better. We are protecting the animals. We're advocating for people in minorities. We're advocating for the environment. We're volunteering. We're, you know, doctors and teachers and nurses and, and and artists and creators, but we're doing things to make the better world a place with love. So I do think that most people, I'd say in in in the general population are practicing far too much self-care and are not practicing enough activism and are not trying to volunteer and to change the world and change the game. I think people are far too individualistic and self-centered. I can't imagine going on a skiing holiday. I would love to go volunteering or go beach cleaning or something instead. you know I think you can have fun and enjoy your life and still be an activist.
00:30:22
Speaker
So I think that that's what I would really love to tell the general population is that doing good for the world can feel like so much fun. It's so rewarding. The world needs it. So yes, there is a place for self-care, but for the majority of people who are not activists, who are not standing up for causes that they believe in, not trying to change the game for the better, then I think that there needs to be an emphasis on enough self-care is enough.
00:30:46
Speaker
Yeah, goodness. I mean, yeah, you you rang a chime with me there with individualism, goodness me. and That's the scourge of so much that feeds into poor manifestations in the world for sure. Go on, Kate. Yeah, I don't think people realise the power they have, actually. i think they think that, oh, those people over there, they know so much more about these things. I don't know anything, you know. Oh, I don't really agree with that, but I don't know what to do. And, um you know, actually um just have a go, step up, say something.
Diverse Approaches to Activism
00:31:23
Speaker
You never know where it's going to lead. But, yeah, I do agree we must look after ourselves. It's this thing, isn't it, on on an aeroplane, if, you know, put your own gas mask on first before you help other people. um You know, very simplistic. oh sorry. but But it's true. I mean, i myself got ill when I stopped looking after myself. The one thing i was doing for myself, I stopped. And then my autoimmune condition kicked in from stress. So, and that was before I was ever vegan. So, you know, it can it can happen to anybody. But I think as vegans and activists, we're even more, we have even more pressure on us, don't we?
00:32:10
Speaker
um You know, because just being a vegan, where it's almost like we're in, well, we're not inviting ridicule and aggression, but somehow we seem to get it, you know, even if it's just microaggressions, um you know, and and can feel isolated, even from our family and friends, which is horrible. um So we need to find our own family. We need to find our own friends and and enjoy their company, don't we? And, you know, and I don't as far as other people and thinking, oh, well, they're not really doing it. that Oh, they say they're vegan, but they're not doing anything. oh Just in my head, are flashed up. i i'm I may be wrong about this, but Johnny Vegas, the comedian, i heard somewhere that he spent like 10 years watching TV. before he actually got on with his life and became this incredible, talented, you know, comedian. So I do sometimes think that maybe people haven't found their their form of activism yet. And who's to say it's not going to be something amazing? um
00:33:17
Speaker
And if it's, if the I say inverted commas, just cooking vegan cakes, that's fine. You know, i mean, you know, ah eight Each to their own, everyone will find their own way of doing something, my opinion, anyway. Yeah, I think ah Ms Cupcake has done an awful lot for the vegan cause. Just if nothing else, just fueling me for all of all of my vegan activism activity in the, I don't know, the early 2010s. Like, oh, goodness me, I was addicted to that stuff.
00:33:50
Speaker
And I think that's so important is to highlight exactly like you said, activism can be cooking cupcakes, but it that the next day it could be being, you know, a naked Peter volunteer on the street in London. So actually the way that we show up for activism doesn't always have to be the same. And there's so many different ways to change the world, whether it's cooking or creating or writing or lobbying or protesting. or You know, there's so many different forms of activism, bringing people in, supporting activists running other events. um And so it doesn't always have to be
00:34:25
Speaker
400%, as we said, and on full throttle so that you're really um burning out your nervous system. I think sometimes we can take the day to do something a bit more relaxing, even if it's painting something that you've wanted to do that is to do
Ishani's Book and Insights on Mental Health
00:34:39
Speaker
with activism, even if it is cooking and doing your meal preparation and and and preparing food for your friends, that is still activism. So we can take a step back from being so direct and still be a bit more gentle to our bodies and our brains.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, indeed. Ishani, we first came across, well, I speak for myself and I know a couple of other, of the, in enough of the Falafel Collective. We first came across you and your work when um one of our contributors, Mark, featured your book as um his pick for the week. And I know, Kate, you've got a copy of Ishani's book. Can you tell us about the process of of putting this book together and what drove you to it and and and what's in there?
00:35:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So this has been my passion project for about probably about a year and a half now. When I go away volunteering abroad, I'm the dive doctor for conservation organisations or I'll be in eco communes, vegan eco communes around the world. I like to spend two or three months to avoid my own burnout in the NHS over winters as an A&E doctor. So I do go away volunteering. So when I was away, I started just creating, brainstorming these ideas to try and put into action everything that I have been learning over the last few years whilst trying to support vegan activists and becoming a vegan activist. but also my own extensive experience as ah as a doctor with and daily admissions with patients with mental health problems, with all sorts of depression, anxiety, OCDs, bulimias, eating disorders. um It's so common at the moment, and I see sometimes 30 patients a day. So I'm trying to put ah this link between what I'm learning specifically What I've learned in medicine and in general practice and my own experiences as somebody who is really, really aware of mental health. And I think it's a really important topic to discuss. And then becoming an activist where I understand that so many of people that I love are suffering and not thriving as activists because they're struggling.
00:36:42
Speaker
so I really wanted to merge these two worlds because I had a close stint with burnout as a junior doctor and then became a vegan activist and really pulled everything um back into a healthy state of flow and balance so it really came from me being almost on the verge of burnt out and thinking what is going on why am I not enjoying my job why do I feel so emotional all the time why do I feel exhausted why am I dreading going to work on an understaffed ward when I thought I was the problem and then I realized that actually these are greater systematic and systemic issues and this is because I am not supported adequately in the environment that I'm working in.
00:37:22
Speaker
So I kind of put all of this experience together ah because i think it's so important what we're doing as vegan activists, it's so important and the animals need us and it's really, really devastating to see how many people are leaving the cause, are burning out, having inter-activist conflict, um depression, just completely dropping off the scene completely altogether. It's really heartbreaking and I wanted to think of ways that I could make it easy for us to make small changes that are achievable and fun in our life so that we can stay on our activist journey.
00:37:59
Speaker
So that's basically the the long story of the book and it became a reality probably about a year and a half ago and I got the paper copies maybe about a month ago and it's just been the most fun process. I've loved the research, I've loved the reading, I wanted everything to be evidence-based, scientifically proven, um I wanted to find all of the papers and the limitations and everything. So it's been a lot of fun going through all of the science and learning about how to to to to market and to put a book out about something that I really care about and people do care about it. So that's amazing. And thank you for featuring it.
00:38:30
Speaker
Oh, not at all. Goodness me. Goodness me. Not at all. I don't want to put you on the spot. So going to ask Kate to tell us her feelings um um and motivations behind getting the book. But while she's doing that, I invite you, Ashani, if you could have a think about like that you said, everything's evidence based. If there's one nugget that you found out during research for the book.
00:38:55
Speaker
that you think iss a really good one to share. But I'll give you some thinking time. Kate, you've got a copy of Ashani's book. How come? Well, I've got, I had to get a copy because number one, Ishani is the most gorgeous, amazing, wonderful person. And i have listened to her talk at Vegan Kampau and ah countless other places. And I just know how passionate she is and how how lovely, how how she comes across to other people, you know, um just so, so calm, so um so knowledgeable. And, um yeah, just a lovely person to listen to. And I just thought I i really – for my own sake and for friends and family as well, I've recommended your book to lots of people because I think it's just going to – it's got so much – so many practical things in there. There's things in here which I hadn't even thought of. And that things in here that other that friends of mine do, like, for example, you know, jumping, freezing cold lakes and things like that. And, you know, i have done that a couple of times. And yeah, you can't think about anything else at all. It's your mind just goes, blah, blah, blah.
00:40:15
Speaker
blank you know is you know you can't be depressed you can't be anything because you can't think full stop can you it's great so i mean there's tons and tons of brilliant things in here yeah it's just it's just ah just a fantastic book and it's just so needed, I think. Thank you so much. I swim all year round and actually organise vegan gang hike on the 31st of December every year. And this time we're always waiting for the right year. So we're always in swimming stuff and loads of coats and layers and scarves and a bikini. And ah this year it was actually flat enough that we swam. So a good group of activists went out swimming on the 31st. And you're right, you can't think about anything else other than how good you feel when you get out. But
00:41:04
Speaker
but it's such a rush, it's so exhilarating and it's really anti-inflammatory and it's been shown to actually reduce the risk of dementia. Oh, wow. All right. yeah There we are then. Add it to your list, folks. um Come on then, Ishani. Give us ah give us the the the one bit of evidence-based... Well, I mean, that's a really great one.
00:41:21
Speaker
Cold yeah water stuff really helps dementia. Any of things that come to Absolutely. Do you know what? ah The book is full of really practical, fun tasks. And again, it's just choosing a few that you want to do. i think if somebody did them all in a year, then amazing. It would be such a fun year. But I think the the key is choosing a few things that you will stick to. right Don't choose an exercise class that you absolutely hate umt because you won't go to it. Don't do you know buy the vegetables that you really want to like. Just do what you enjoy and optimize it. But something that I did learn, it's a really, really interesting study. It's actually called the Gaia study and analyzed ah vegans during the covid pandemic COVID pandemic. It looks at the risk of burnout in vegans versus non-vegans. So as I was writing my book, this paper was published and I thought, this is insane. This is the exact paper that I needed to completely support my book because it's such an under-researched topic. It's so new, animal rights, veganism. but then plus the whole mental health kind of topic as well. And combining the two, it's something that hasn't really been that researched. It's such a new new concept.
00:42:33
Speaker
And that's why I love it. That's why I love being one of the first people to really help, you know, feed people from Protect the Wild, Animal Rising. You know, I'm i'm paid to do sessions with Protect the Wild as their mental health lead. So Rob, the founder of Protect the Wild, he's incredible. He's realized that we need to stop people from dropping out of the cause if we want to ah to do the cause justice. So actually putting a lot of value into retaining people, supporting people, having really good, you know, relationship dynamics with work within the workplace. It's all really important. So anyway, there's this study called the Gaia study and it looks at burnout. in vegans versus those on the standard American diet, which is very funnily abbreviated as SAD. So you've got the vegans and then those on the standard American SAD diet. and And it shows that vegans have about half as much risk of depression, anxiety, burnout, severity from COVID and infections. So it was a huge groundbreaking study, which has been funded by an organization called the Givinity Collective. And they're looking at the links between climate change, mental health, agriculture, animal agriculture. and So I think that now organizations are getting the funding. This is not just the meat and dairy industry against you know the rest of the world. This is now that ethical organizations are funding research and There's more money coming from veganism. So actually, we will be able to get the data and look at the science properly without the vested interests from animal agriculture and the meat and dairy lobbying industries. So there's huge groundbreaking studies coming out that are showing how much what we eat affects our mental health, can protect from burnout, can to protect from depression. Being part of a community, like we said, the value of that is so essential. And for me, being part of the vegan community has changed my life. So actually yeah being isolated from a community is the same equivalent on your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So that's the the the impact of social isolation is the same as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And so we have become this incredible community of vegan activists and we hold each other up and we share this information and we show each other what the what the healthcare industries don't want us to know, what university never taught me about food and nutrition.
Sustaining Long-term Motivation in Activism
00:44:53
Speaker
We're sharing all of this information. The studies are there. There is more and more money being put into vegan um science and vegan data, right? There's people like Oatly that have funding to do these studies. So the science is coming out and we are going to put up a good fight against the meat and dairy agricultural lobbying industries and we're doing it. So the science is there and I would definitely check out the Gaia study. It's really interesting.
00:45:17
Speaker
Nice. Wow. Up the revolution. It's just a thought that popped into my head while you were saying all of that, Ishani, which is so interesting. But I just suddenly thought, actually, there's been studies that show that farmers who in the livestock industry suffer huge amounts of depression.
00:45:35
Speaker
And of course, you know, people that work in slaughterhouses as well, they have terrible mental health issues and stuff, you know. So, it's i don't ah you know, I don't know if that's a question or I don't know what.
00:45:50
Speaker
I think it's a brilliant statement because, you know, we know people who've, some of our beloved animal rights activists, they worked in slaughterhouses. It's not about demonizing the farmers or the slaughterhouse workers. I love the saying that says, before you ask yourself what kind of person could walk in a slept work in a slaughterhouse, ask yourself what kind of person keeps them employed.
00:46:08
Speaker
So this is, we know that slaughterhouse workers are often and immigrants, refugees, completely underpaid, below minimum wage, often don't have the right documents, you know, they're living in fear. of not being able to to survive. So these are often and refugees or people from very, very under um and underpoverished backgrounds. So it's really, really hard trying to build that relationship with farmers, migrant workers, all of these people who have been, they're victims of the animal abuse industry. They're victims of of our destructive practices with the food industry. and So you're completely right. There's huge underlying um mental health issues that come with being part of these industries as well. And we need to be supporting people to make effective and sustainable changes, which is where the the barriers are arising.
00:46:56
Speaker
Goodness me, so much, so much to think about so much to think about. Ishani, we're coming towards the end of our time together. I know there's more that you have done for for veganism and for animal rights and are still doing um as well as the book and you've referenced some of them.
00:47:12
Speaker
Do you want to give a quick shout out for for other things that you work on that might might interest our listeners? Absolutely. Yes. So there's a few organizations who I am so proud to work with and for. So Plant Based Health Professionals, an amazing organization founded by Dr. Shireen Kassam, filled with knowledgeable, incredible people who all understand that veganism is the future and we could be so protective. of our and NHS and healthcare if we all transition to a vegan diet.
00:47:38
Speaker
So plant-based health professionals, absolutely amazing. Protect the Wild, founded by Rob, who I talked about. They're doing amazing efforts to conserve the UK environment um and just nature and biodiversity, absolutely brilliant. And I offer some free sessions for activists through them. So thank you, Rob, for allowing that to happen. I'm also running retreats in Malaga, where I grew up, and in Spain. One is in June and one of them is in September, and I'll be hosting them regularly. They've been sold out all of last year. and We had a few in Malaga. They've been brilliant. We've had activists from Viva, Speciesism, and Protect the Wild, Plant Based Health Professionals, Anonymous for the Voiceless, We the Free. So amazing, amazing activists who come together to focus on protecting our mental health and building valuable connections and relationships.
00:48:25
Speaker
So I've got a few spaces for June, a fews few spaces for September. The book launch has been brilliant. Bristol and London so far. And I'll have Birmingham. and Brighton coming up when I come back from volunteering and and later in the summer. So all in all, really, really exciting. And I hope that people do buy and enjoy the book because I've poured my heart into it. So I hope you like it.
00:48:46
Speaker
So ah you also have your Buckets of Love charity but maybe you might want to say something about. You do street eight outreach and you've been a milked woman.
00:48:58
Speaker
Yeah, it was the most special day. It was absolutely brilliant. And even I was scared about telling my parents. And so I told them I was going to be involved in some activism, didn't say what. And then the next morning I sent it to them because I thought they say, oh, don't do that. Don't do that. So risky. If I can't risk getting arrested or anything like that, it will be so problematic with my job. And I think, you know, that's a space I've got to be so careful in. and so I thought I can't risk anything. And then the next morning I sent it to my parents and my mum said, we've seen it all over. We're so proud of you. So they're both vegan as well. So I thought that was just an amazing day. And just Stephanie Lane and Susan Clark, the speciesism. events are incredible moving art installations av anonymous for the voiceless i've got a soft spot for av um i've been doing street out week outreach with them for years now five or six years so i absolutely love them they're so striking they're so cool and buckets of love is my fundraising organization we've donated three wells for clean water for villages in India. and And we have loads of fun while just raising money for good causes. Vegan activist wellbeing days, raves, skydiving for animal sanctuaries. Loads of fun. Come and get involved. It's a community project.
00:50:08
Speaker
it's it It sounds to me like the an epitome of of what we've been talking about today is is the fact that unfortunately, the world isn't going to go vegan overnight. It's not.
00:50:21
Speaker
So we have to be in this for the long haul. So we may as well enjoy ourselves while we're doing it. And that probably makes things far more effective to and far more attractive to to people who might be interested in joining us at the party. Yeah.
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:50:37
Speaker
Yeah, and also imagine if we did completely liberate all animals overnight.
00:50:41
Speaker
I'm sure we're all kind people. There'll still be a cause that we want to advocate for. We still want to protect the environment. We still want to have, you know, a refugee and immigrants and trans and LGBT and of gender rights. We'd still want to fight for all of these things. So we're activists by heart, not just because we think that we're going to achieve something miraculously overnight. So we're here for the long haul. We're here and we're in it together. um And I want it to be part of a community. I want it to be a long term project that we can all get involved in, take the break, take the breaks as you need to and dip in and dip out. But we can all do so much if we come together. One person can't make a difference at eight billion people.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah, too true, too true. Thank you so much, Ishani. Listeners, if you want to find out how to buy Ishani's book or to be involved in anything else that we've referenced today, look in the show notes for this episode. We'll make sure. There are links there too. That's where you can also get in touch with us on the socials um and by email if you want to send a longer form message. Obviously, we always feature your messages on our mailbag shows. No matter what you're saying about us, you can hurl abuse if that's how you get your kicks. That is fine by us. Kate, when are we next back doing all things falafel?
00:51:57
Speaker
Yes, so we are out again on Monday the 20th of April um and it will be another Vegan Week episode with the wonderful Paul and and me, apparently. Anyway, that will be another round-up of the week's vegan and animal rights news. Anyway, that is enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Kate. Thank you, Ishani, for all of your contributions. Thank you, everyone, for listening. We definitely wouldn't do this without you. That would be a sorry echo so chamber, wouldn't it? So thank you for always being there. I've been Anthony, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:52:44
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
00:52:54
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:53:25
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:53:46
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from