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S3E08: Towards Diversity, Equity, and Access at the LSAC with President and CEO Kellye Testy
14 Plays2 years ago
Co-Dean Kimberly Mutcherson is joined by LSAC President and CEO Kellye Testy, who shares how the council is seeking to advance diversity and equity and provide an accessible law school admissions process.
You can read more about Kellye Testy here.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally-known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Margaret McCarthy
Series Producer: Nate Nakao
Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction of Guest, Kelly Teske
00:00:04
Speaker
My name is Kim Mutterson. I am the co-dean of Rutgers Law School on the Camden campus, and this is the power of attorney.
00:00:15
Speaker
I am delighted today that I am able to have a conversation with Kelly Teske, who is currently the president and chief executive officer of the Law School Admission Council, which is an incredibly important organization for those of us in law schools. So it's wonderful to talk to you because of the position you hold, Kelly, but obviously it's also wonderful to talk to you because I just think that you're a wonderful person who has done amazing things in legal education. So thanks so much for making the time to talk with us today.
00:00:43
Speaker
It's a pleasure Dean for me to be with you and that you give me that wonderful compliment means the world because I pay it right back to you. Thank you. Thank you.
Kelly's Journey to Law and First-Gen Background
00:00:52
Speaker
So the way I always like to start this podcast is asking people about their origin story. There are so many different things that you could have done with your life and for whatever reason you decided to devote it to the law, then ultimately to legal education. So what brought you to being a lawyer?
00:01:10
Speaker
Well, it's an unlikely pathway, I suppose, in a sense. I'm a first-gen college grad in my family, Kim. And so I think in some ways that I went to college at all and then on to law school and into being a professor and dean and now president of LSAC is not a pathway I would have anticipated. I didn't really anticipate any pathway, to be honest. So I'll share that I grew up in a really small town in Indiana, as I said,
00:01:39
Speaker
a first-gen college grad. My parents graduated from high school, but some of my grandparents did not even attend high school. So really a, you know, very much a working-class background from a small town in Indiana where they made a lot of bricks. It was Clay County, and a lot of my ancestors list on the census Clay worker as what they did.
00:02:04
Speaker
So what I would share beyond that is that when I first went to college, it was honestly because I was very involved in athletics.
Inspiration from Athletics and Interest in Legal Stories
00:02:12
Speaker
And I was very active in sports all the way through high school, four different sports. And I used to sneak into the building at Indiana University. I happened to then, you know, live near IU Bloomington. And my friends and I would sneak in there to play basketball with the women's basketball team.
00:02:30
Speaker
And one day they said to me, well, you're going to play in the team and you get here aren't you? And I'm like, what do you mean get here? Oh, I guess I should go to college. So, so really athletics led me to college. And then law school was in some ways due to the fact that I decided to major in journalism. I was a sports reporter, keeping the sports theme. And I, you know, and I thought, well, I like sports reporting. I guess that would mean you'd major in journalism. So.
00:02:56
Speaker
I did that and one day in a communications law class, our professor told us we had to go find the law library and we had to find New York Times versus Sullivan case and read it. And I still remember walking into that law library on Indiana University's campus and just feeling just so amazed that there were all these stories in these case books and they were real people that real things happened to and law had provided some kind of a pathway for them. And I fell in love right then.
00:03:26
Speaker
I love that. That is a terrific story. I wonder though, if you sort of, as many people experience when they're first gen, either in college or in law school, you show up and
The Role of Mentorship in Kelly's Law School Experience
00:03:40
Speaker
you either have sort of no vision for what that experience is gonna be like, or you have a very particular vision that the experience may or may not live up to. So what was it like for you to actually go into law school and be a first year law student, which we all know is the least fun year in some ways of law school because of that transition? Absolutely, and I had had about six years in between undergrad and law school because I was working trying to figure out how to afford
00:04:07
Speaker
going to school, I had this dream of going to law school, but I really didn't have a sense of how one tried to reach that dream. And I didn't really know lawyers or those who could help. So when I started law school, it really was with really no expectation. I didn't know what a transactional versus a litigator was. I really didn't know about much of anything with law school. And so just plunged in hoping for the best really.
00:04:36
Speaker
So what I was surprised about, I think almost instantly, is how much I enjoyed it. Even though it was hard, I just found the intellectual challenge of it really compelling. And I didn't know that I would do well. I just knew I was really enjoying it and was just kind of hoping for the best. But for whatever reason, it really took. And I was fortunate at IU Bloomington to have some people that were great mentors.
00:05:03
Speaker
And I became a research assistant to a professor in my first year who was really helpful to me in just countless ways. One of the pieces of the puzzle, I think, often for all law students, but particularly for law students who are first gen, is thinking about the importance of mentorship or even understanding why mentorship is so important. So I have a couple of questions about that for you. So first of all,
00:05:30
Speaker
Did you feel like you identified mentors or that your mentors identified you? And why was it critical for you to sort of have those people in law school, whether they were professors or whomever, to help guide that journey for you? Sure. Well, mentorship really is important. And I think about it now a lot more than I thought about it then. I really didn't know the concept of a mentor or mentoring at that point.
00:05:58
Speaker
And really, I want to respond to this by sharing a little bit of another story, which is that sometimes I think we think when we start law school that the things we already knew, you know, and even some of our bad habits might be detriments in law school. But I found, for instance, that, you know, I come, my family, from a long line of what I call worriers. You know, we can, you know, talk about people that can foresee risk. You know, we worry about everything.
00:06:23
Speaker
And so I didn't know that something like that would actually be helpful when I got to a class like torts. And my professor kind of called me in and he said, this is a really good exam, but are you okay?
00:06:34
Speaker
because you clearly worry about a lot of things that might happen in the world. But in any event, it was really at that moment that a couple of faculty said, we think you have a good aptitude for this. And if you want some guidance or help, let us know. And so it really was driven by people reaching out to me. I honestly didn't know that I should be thinking about that. And so I give people a lot of credit for that affirmative action and taking the step to say,
00:07:03
Speaker
Hey, we see something here that's a good spark and we think you can do this and we want to help. And I certainly try and do that now every once I get. Yeah.
00:07:14
Speaker
I've had obviously opportunities to have lots of conversations with women in academia and particularly women of color in academia. And lots of us talk about ourselves as accidental law professors or accidental academics. And my guess is that if you went into law school as somebody who didn't know any lawyers, that you didn't go into law school thinking, you know what, I'm going to take over legal academia.
00:07:39
Speaker
So talk about that transition.
Transition to Academia and Business Law Passion
00:07:42
Speaker
I mean, I know for me, I went to law school to be a public interest lawyer, did public interest law for a few years after I graduated, and still have these moments of thinking, how did I end up back in law school? So what was that transition like for you and how did it happen?
00:07:57
Speaker
Sure. No, you're absolutely right that I didn't anticipate that, you know, in my wildest dreams. But I found in law school that what I really enjoyed was working on some of the legal scholarship with the faculty members and on the law journal. And a couple of faculty members in particular that I worked with, they were working in the tax and corporate and business area of law, securities law. And I just found it fascinating. I think in some ways because I really didn't know anything about money.
00:08:24
Speaker
learning about it and learning about how corporations worked and securities markets worked and capital markets worked. That was just enthralled. And so I think it was from that start that I really got interested in writing about business law.
00:08:37
Speaker
But because of my background as first gen and just many other components of my life that have led me to have a deep commitment to equality, I always wanted to put those two things together. What does business have to do with equality and vice versa? How can those go together? And so I developed a strong interest really in two areas that people think of as very divergent. The law and equity on the one hand and the business corporate on the other and always tried to push those two things together.
00:09:04
Speaker
But again, I would say that I felt very fortunate. There was a time in my third year of law school when a wonderful professor came to campus to give a talk for a Harris lecture that Indiana did every year. And it happened to be Barbara Babcock, who was, I think, the first tenured woman professor at Stanford.
00:09:26
Speaker
And she and I got to spend the lunch together, and she helped me see what an academic pathway might look like. Some other faculty in Indiana had helped with that as well. But I will tell you, Kim, that I enjoyed working for law firms. I found that, again, just intellectually so interesting. And I was working with a big firm, and then I clerked on the Seventh Circuit for a year. And I thought, well, I'll test the waters with the teaching market. I didn't expect to really get an offer, but I did.
00:09:53
Speaker
And so again, it really was kind of an accidental pathway just step at a time.
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I think part of why it is accidental for so many of us is that we didn't necessarily see people who look like us at our law schools when we were in law school, nor were we sort of cultivated in lots of cases to be a law professor. So there's something very powerful about that professor who says to you, hey, I could imagine you as a law professor. I feel like that can be really
00:10:28
Speaker
life-changing for people as it was for you. Yes. And it's really also a reason why we all have to keep working for more equity in legal education and to have people in every area of law that represent our society. Because you're right, when I think back to law school, it was not very diverse at all in terms of race or somewhat more with respect to gender, but not much with respect to sexuality, for instance, or other intersectionalities.
00:10:56
Speaker
And, you know, I think that maybe the first faculty member I had who was female might have been my women in the law teacher. So, you know, especially in the business area, there weren't as many women in corporate securities. One of, you know, there was a great tax professor, Rebecca Rudnick, who helped me a lot. And, but no, I think that representation is really critical. Law students need to see themselves in the faculty and the staff and the deans.
00:11:22
Speaker
And, and that is really an area that I'm so committed to trying to further as well as saying to law students everywhere, you know, we need you particularly, you know, we need your voice, your experience, your set of identities in law so that you can come out in the law and we can, we can feel you and we can feel your values and your commitments and your priorities so that law serves everyone.
Breaking Barriers as the First Woman Dean
00:11:47
Speaker
I want to talk to you a lot about the work that you do at LSAC, but before we get to that, I want to talk about the work that you did as a law school dean. One of the things that is incredibly important to me as a dean right now
00:12:05
Speaker
is how many other women, and particularly how many other women of color and black women, are law school deans. But you were the dean at two different law schools. You were at the dean in Seattle and then also at University of Washington. And at Washington, you were definitely the first woman who was dean there. Was that true at Seattle as well? Yes, it was. I was the first woman at both those schools. And
00:12:26
Speaker
Seattle U has since had a second woman dean, but I think I'm still the only woman who served as dean at the University of Washington. And it's an old law school, 120 years old. So that says something. Yeah. Yeah. It's always extraordinary to think about, and as you know, I was the first woman to be the dean here at Rutgers Law. And on one hand, I always sort of feel like, well, this is great that this has happened. And then the other hand thinking,
00:12:54
Speaker
It's amazing that it took this long for this to happen. But again, I get to do this job at a time where there's this really deep bench of women who are law deans. And we talk a lot and we share information and it's a very supportive group of women, but you didn't have that when you started off as a dean. And I would love to hear you just talk about what that experience was like. I mean, not only being the first woman,
00:13:19
Speaker
to play that role at two different institutions, but doing so at a time where you didn't have this broad community of folks who you could commiserate with and get support from. Yeah, you're really right. The growth and the change has been wonderful to see. When I first became a Dean in 04, the number of women serving as Dean were very low. The number of people of color serving as Dean was likewise low, and that's grown and changed.
00:13:49
Speaker
But, you know, I remember that we used to get together at AALS, the Association of American Law School's annual meeting, and have a deans, a dinner for the women deans. And when I first began, we could kind of fit around the table. And now we really almost have to rethink, can we have the event? Is it so big? And so the growth has been wonderful. And there was a program I started when I was at Seattle University to try and explicitly and intentionally nurture talent.
00:14:19
Speaker
to become deans from the ranks of women and people of color and others who are underrepresented in law. And so that was something that I found very important because I had been in a number of dean searches on the side of looking for a dean. And one of the phrases that always stuck in my head is there'd be these amazing smart women, amazing smart women of color or men of color. And people would say, you know, she just doesn't quite seem like a dean.
00:14:47
Speaker
Or he doesn't quite seem like a dean. He's a really, really great guy. And I realized that it's all those implicit and other biases that we have that make us construct what we think a dean looks like. And then some people get mentored to be a dean and others don't. So we really set out with this conference to sort of unlock the process and say, all of you can and I hope you want to be deans. And here's what it means. Here's why. Here's how to go through the process. Here's what the job is.
00:15:17
Speaker
And I hope that's been some help in the change that we've seen. But I will also say that even though at the time I became a dean, it was not as diverse a group as it is now. From all walks of life, the deans were very collegial. And I always found the deans to be willing to provide a lending hand and an ear to help other deans. And so I do think that community
00:15:46
Speaker
was strong, even though now it's stronger because of its diversity. I have definitely been surprised as maybe not a fair word to use, but I have definitely been deeply pleased by the sense of community among law school deans in general. And no doubt some of it has to do that we've been deaning during crisis for a lot of us. That helps to bring people together. But it really is such a wonderful group of people.
00:16:15
Speaker
I was not a person who ever aspired to be a law school dean. That is an accidental experience for me as well. And I remember, I've told this story many times before, but I was at a conference many, many years ago, and Camille Nelson was there. And she was talking to a few of us in between sessions. And Camille, for those who don't know, is a Black woman who's now been the law dean at a few different law schools and been very successful. And she was talking to a group of us who are women and mostly people of color
00:16:45
Speaker
And she was asking us, you know, are any of you interested in being law deans? And we were all just deeply, deeply negative about even the prospect of it. And she said, and this just resonated with me for years and years afterwards, she said, you know, we can't complain about the lack of diversity or any of these other issues when it comes to leadership in law schools if none of us are willing to take those jobs.
00:17:08
Speaker
And we all were sort of shame-based when she said that. But again, that was something that really resonated in my head a lot. And I thought about, what's the story that I would tell to somebody who I wanted to encourage to get into this
Impact of Diversity among Law School Deans
00:17:23
Speaker
field? And I'd love to hear what your answer to that is. Why should anybody want to become a law school dean? And particularly, why should folks who maybe are going to be the first woman, the first black person, the first South Asian person,
00:17:35
Speaker
to step into those shoes. What's appealing about this job? What do we get to do that makes it worth all the other things that come along with it that maybe aren't so great? It is a really good question. And I would say what you get to do is change. Change, change, change is going to come by you being in that role. And if you want to have a world where law and justice are more aligned and where legal education is more a part of building the future of justice, then get in the seat.
00:18:05
Speaker
And I think the world of Camille Nelson, I remember when she was first Dean of Suffolk when I was, you know, still deaning and really admire her leadership. And I think she's right about that. And I do believe, Kim, and I'm sure you feel it now that you're in the role, that every day there's an opportunity and decisions little and medium and big to influence the way the institution works, who's a part of it, whose voice is heard, what actions it takes or doesn't take.
00:18:34
Speaker
And I think that all matters for the vision we have of the relationship between life and law. So I think it's a wonderful chance for leadership. And I'm a big proponent of leadership. I teach law and leadership now. And I think a lot of what it means is sometimes you put yourself in danger's way to have impact and to try and I won't at all say that every minute of being a dean is pleasant. It's a tough job. It's a lonely job sometimes.
00:19:03
Speaker
but I do think it's a place where you can make change that's positive.
00:19:09
Speaker
I want to actually sort of follow that thread a little bit because I think it allows us to shift the conversation to thinking about legal education and some of the ways that legal education has changed over the years and over the decades. And one thing is even the idea that you could have a course at a law school about leadership, right? I mean, that's not something that was available when I was in law school. And there are lots of things I think that we teach now that were not being taught in law schools even 10 or 15 years ago.
00:19:37
Speaker
Can we talk a little bit about some of the positive changes that you've been able to watch and some of them you've been able to usher in in legal education over the time that you've been a part of this world? Sure. I think there are a lot. I think American legal education is really strong right now. In saying that, I don't mean to suggest there isn't more change that can happen.
00:20:04
Speaker
But I also think there's been a lot of change, more than I think some people recognize. I think sometimes people want to say, hey, you're still teaching some of the same subjects in the first year. Doesn't that mean it's the same? No. Let's look inside of what's happening in those classes. Let's look inside of what's happening in other places in the curriculum.
00:20:23
Speaker
So I would say that one of the changes that I really like seeing is that I think the way people teach law has expanded dramatically in the time that I've been involved in legal education. And today law teachers are better teachers. They employ a much whiter variety of teaching methodologies. They understand assessment. There's just more of education and teaching going on than just professing. And that I think is all over the law school curriculum and it's very good.
00:20:53
Speaker
The other change is that I think we've come to understand that we need both theory, we need doctrine, and we need application and practice. And so not only has clinical education expanded in law schools, but all forms of experiential education have expanded. There's more opportunities for externships. There's more opportunities for labs. There's more application in what you think of as traditional classes.
00:21:17
Speaker
you know, where you don't just teach contracts cases anymore, you're writing contracts, you're hearing from people who are managing complex contracts. So I think that's been a wonderful turn as well. And then the third thing I would say, there's so much we could talk about is that you're really right about the growth of the curriculum into providing many more of the adjacent skills that lawyers need to be successful. So we know that lawyers need to have
00:21:47
Speaker
grounding in law and legal education, but they also need cultural competency, financial competency, technological competency.
Positive Changes in Legal Education
00:21:56
Speaker
And those, you know, and really, you know, I think values competency. And that's why I teach in leadership a lot about values. And so I think that's been a big plus for legal education as well.
00:22:11
Speaker
Absolutely. And certainly, you know, I sort of think about some of the curricular changes that are coming about, you know, during this period of really deep and difficult conversations about race and class and gender and the ways in which law schools, many law schools have embraced this moment or at least are trying to embrace this moment. And, you know, that I think actually now is a good time to sort of switch to talking about LSAC and
00:22:41
Speaker
the powerful work that you are doing there. And I'll start by saying that I think that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily huge fans of LSAC because of the relationship with the LSAT and concerns about how that has played a role in what law schools look like and how law schools admit students.
00:23:01
Speaker
So maybe let's get that conversation out of the way first, and then we can switch to talking about some of the other great initiatives that you were doing at LSAC. So I'll take the negative side of it, which is that for a very long time, particularly people who are interested in diversity at law schools, racial diversity in particular, have been
00:23:24
Speaker
really concerned about the role that the LSAT plays as a gatekeeper to who gets access to law school. And I know as somebody who is so deeply committed, as you are, to issues of diversity and equity, that that's something that you are clearly thinking about and have thoughts
The LSAT's Role in Admissions: Controversy and Purpose
00:23:40
Speaker
about. So as I said, let's just let's get that part of the conversation out of the way and then we can talk about other things. So, you know, let's talk about the LSAT and what role it should play in law school admissions and
00:23:52
Speaker
why or why not, we should continue to use it. Absolutely. And and I'm glad to talk about this because it really goes to the core of of what's the role of a mission and enrollment, you know, and because that is where it starts. And if we don't get it right there, we're not going to have a diverse set of law students or lawyers. And so in many ways, what what really compelled me when I was offered this opportunity is to work at that opening at that gateway at the start. And
00:24:21
Speaker
And you're really right that the LSAT is something that has both a lot of wonderful things about it, and I'll mention those, but there's also some ways that you used that are really negative. And I want to talk about that honestly as well. And I want to start by saying that I've learned so much since coming to LSAC that I didn't know. You know, there are a lot of myths out there about testing and about the LSAT that
00:24:48
Speaker
are so strong that it takes a lot to break through that and really look at the truth and what's really there. But I think we can start by understanding that there's first the actual test itself and what it's made of and why it's there. And that is important to know because Kim, the very reason the LSAT was created by law deans and law faculty is to try and diversify the student bodies. Because before we had it,
00:25:16
Speaker
admission was done just on the basis of where'd you go to school? Who are your references? How'd you do in your GPA? And that was excluding so many people and we needed a way to judge potential, not privilege. And so the origins were absolutely well-intended and right on in that it was meant to open up legal education and to say that we don't care if you went to a school no one heard of and you don't have a lawyer in your family and you didn't have money to do all these violin lessons.
00:25:45
Speaker
You show that you can read, write, and reason, and we want you. But then, you know, history goes on, right? And it starts to get used in a particular way. And so LSAC has always said from the get-go and still that the LSAT should just be one factor in a holistic process. It should be used as an includer, not as an excluder. Use it to find those people that you want to bring in.
00:26:14
Speaker
But we know that today, because of the powerful influence of the US news rankings, it's overused. And that's something we all need to talk about. But like most things, I think we need to be careful to not make things worse by throwing out something that was meant to have the right purpose. Instead, we ought to learn to use it correctly.
00:26:35
Speaker
One of the ongoing conversations among law schools is about using other tests, specifically the GRE, as a way to gauge potential or to admit people to law school. And maybe this is an unfair question, but I'm curious about your feelings about that, right? Does switching off of the LSAT or using the LSAT in addition to the GRE, does that feel like
00:27:03
Speaker
moving in the right direction or are there problems there as well? Yeah, I would say that on that one, it's a difficult one in the sense that because you want a test to be designed for the purpose for which it's used, we're not fans, and I'm not a fan of grabbing some other instrument and using it for something it wasn't designed for. And I don't think good things come from that. And in fact, the data is showing that this isn't a diversity enhancer. And so
00:27:31
Speaker
If that was the reason, it's not being accomplished. So I don't think that it's working, and so I wouldn't be a fan of that. But on the other hand, I'm a fan of access. And there are times, I suppose, when there might be a way to say, this person maybe doesn't need to take yet another test. And so some contexts, for example, 3-3 programs,
00:27:54
Speaker
or a program where somebody is already in a grad school program and they've already taken a GRE and so you know that they've done very well. Let's not add one more thing if we know in making that holistic admission decision that that person can thrive. But I think for the vast majority, it's gonna have more integrity to have a test that's designed and that's validated for this purpose. Because otherwise it's unfair. And I'll mention one other thing that I worry maybe the most about.
00:28:25
Speaker
And that is that all the research shows that when the pathways to get somewhere become unclear about which is the one and that hurts most the people that you most want to reach with clarity. And so what I really hate to see, and I'm seeing it happen, is that is exactly the student that you'd most want to know this is how to maximize your chances for admission. This is how to maximize your skills. They're not sure what to do.
00:28:50
Speaker
And then that creates a barrier. And so I hope that we can all work together to make admission as open and as fair. You know, that's our goal. And we are not wedded to any one way to do that at LSAC. Sometimes people mistake that they think that LSAT and LSAC are the same thing. That's one of our products, yes. And it's been an incredibly successful one. It's the most respected test of critical thinking in our world.
00:29:18
Speaker
But we are not synonymous, and we want fairness, equity, and access. That's what we care about. Well, let's talk about that then, right? Let's talk about the other things that LSAC does. And in particular, I think a lot of us feel like your leadership at LSAC has really moved that organization forward in significant ways in a relatively short period
Vision for a More Accessible LSAC
00:29:41
Speaker
of time. And some of that, like for the rest of us, is about
00:29:45
Speaker
doing this work during a crisis and what it sort of forces you to do. But some of it is just about the vision that you brought to the role. So can we talk first about why you decided that you wanted to take this job at LSAC and then sort of the vision that you have for the organization and then we can talk about ways that you've implemented that vision.
00:30:07
Speaker
You bet. And again, it really wasn't an opportunity that was on my radar screen. I had served on LSAC's diversity committee at one point because the organization is just such a historic leader in all aspects of diversity. And I remember myself as a member of the LGBTQ community that when I was in law school, the only organization I saw talking about the welcomeness of gay people in law was LSAC.
00:30:35
Speaker
And so there's a great history of equity there, but even so, as a Dean, you know, I knew that our admissions work somehow, but I didn't understand the full import of LSAC to law school admission. So when I was offered this opportunity, I had really expected to be on a sabbatical after being a Dean for about 15 years, but I was compelled by the opportunity to make a difference in opening up legal education.
00:31:02
Speaker
because I really wanted to try and make the barriers go down, you know, to have it be easier to apply, to have it be less fraught with anxiety. And so we've been working very hard to build pipeline earlier, to build pipeline more affirmatively, to make the experience of working with us and applying to law school easier to make it more convenient to take the LSAT.
00:31:29
Speaker
to have free preparation so that we help take away the influence of money on preparation. And so we built out Law Hub to provide all kinds of free opportunities there and also partnered with Khan Academy to do that. So Kim, my vision is really to keep working to make LSAC clearly the friend of the law school candidate.
00:31:53
Speaker
where anyone who thinks they may have an interest in law school or may not even know yet, we can ignite that and then we can help you find your pathway.
00:32:03
Speaker
That's great. One of the pieces that I think has been a piece that has opened up access is the switch to the LSAT Flex, which again, you're working in crisis and things change. Can you talk about that process, particularly I think because
00:32:25
Speaker
the switch to a remote bar exam has been really, really fraught. And my sense is that the switch to the LSAT flex has been less so. So it'd be great to just sort of talk through that and how you all did it so quickly and what the experience has been, at least that you can see, for prospective law students who have been able to take the LSAT under these conditions as opposed to what it was like before we couldn't all be in a room together.
00:32:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
Adapting to LSAT Flex During the Pandemic
00:32:54
Speaker
And the story of us going to the flex and delivering remotely during the pandemic is a story that we are very proud of. And I thank my colleagues. We have worked around the clock since March of 2020. And we're just as busy as we've ever been still. But we wanted to make sure that those enrollment journeys did not get disrupted. And so my colleagues were really able to do in two months time what might have taken two years time and
00:33:22
Speaker
any other circumstance and really pivot and deliver that test remotely. And it was absolutely, you know, one of the things that went very well in the sense that the comparability of scores is wonderful. So you can compare pre, you know, pre-flex, flex, and you can compare now our four section with the experimental section back. And the psychometric study shows that test takers
00:33:50
Speaker
across all those times, it's very consistent, very stable, just like it's been historically. Now, some people have gotten confused on that because because more people are applying to law school, there are more people in high score bands. So people think that scores went up because it was shorter or something, but not in test takers. It's just that more applicants are applying. So there's more applicants in that category. And also in the pandemic, it turned out people studied about 30% more. So as you might expect, when you study more, you do a little better.
00:34:19
Speaker
But really, I do credit the fact that I've spent a lot of my professional life in Seattle, which is a very tech-heavy innovation entrepreneur environment. And so one of the things that I've also brought to LSAT is a desire to really move into the digital world more fully because of the access enhancement that comes from that. So we were leaning that way when this hit. We had just started the digital LSAT
00:34:47
Speaker
And that allowed us to really have a bit of a headstart to pivot quickly. And I think the other thing that helped us enormously, and this is where leadership has risks to it. I really just said, we have to commit and go. We can't wait and see. We don't know how long the pandemic is going to last, but everything I could hear was it was going to last a while. And so we committed. And in making that commitment, we were able to get traction.
00:35:16
Speaker
I think what hurt the bar exams a lot is that there was so much, what do we do back and forth? And that really made it harder to get traction. Um, and then also, you know, our technology was really good. It worked. And that's the other thing is that, you know, at the end of the day, what do you want from technology? You want it to work. And that doesn't mean that everything's perfect. You know, there's never going to be a case in a sophisticated technology product where you get a hundred percent, but you have to get close.
00:35:45
Speaker
And then anyone who doesn't get that, you need to take care of them. And I think we've gotten better and better at that too. And if there's any message I want candidates to know, it's that our staff wants to help you. And sometimes the volume is overwhelming and it may be that we don't do it just right, but we'll stick with you. And I want you to stick with us because we will go the distance.
00:36:08
Speaker
And one of the other things that I, and if I'm wrong about this, please do correct me. But I think that you all were also helping candidates who didn't have the tech, who didn't have a laptop to take the exam, helping candidates with things like getting them space where they could sit and they could do the test. I mean, that seems really extraordinary.
00:36:31
Speaker
You know, it is, I don't know of any other example of it, but you know, we immediately realized that as much as everyone wants to say there's no longer a digital divide because everybody's got a cell phone, everybody doesn't have a cell phone, most people do, but that's not the same as having a laptop that you can, you know, and so again, we are really committed to access and equity.
00:36:51
Speaker
So we wanted to provide, if a computer was the barrier, we wanted to take that barrier away. If getting a quiet place was a barrier, we wanted to take that away. If an internet connection was a barrier, we want to take that away. So yes, we've lended out thousands of laptops. We've provided hotel rooms that are quiet with a speedy internet connection. And we're going to keep doing what we can because we realize that access to learning is unequal in our world.
00:37:20
Speaker
And this is where it gets complicated with any kind of academic measurement because you don't want to stomp on the thermometer and think you've cured the disease. You need to understand that that measurement is telling you there's a problem. And it's not a problem of the way someone's thinking. It's that the access they've had to good education and rigorous education is insufficient. And the only way you're going to cure that is by providing that access and adding to that academic experience. And that's why it's so important that
00:37:50
Speaker
We not think there are shortcuts. You know, the skills, the LSAT tests, reading comp, writing ability, and reasoning, those can be learned. But we need to provide access to that learning and not think that when we pick up a difference in it through a measurement, that we need to get rid of the measurement. That will make the problem worse, not better, because we won't see it and we won't address it.
00:38:14
Speaker
Right. Right. So first of all, you know, I just I just love to see people who are actually walking the walk. Right. So if you if you believe in access, that you're really thinking broadly about the various issues that people might experience. And one of the things that I think we talk about a lot less in terms of the LSAT and in terms of law school as well, frankly, is access for people with disabilities.
Universal Design and Accessibility in Legal Education
00:38:38
Speaker
We talk a lot about race in the LSAT.
00:38:41
Speaker
and standardized testing, but we don't talk necessarily about people with a whole wide range of disabilities that have an impact on how they take the test, when they take the test, how they do on the test, et cetera. And my sense is that part of what you have been doing at LSAC in addition to all the other things that you were doing is really thinking about the question of disability.
00:39:04
Speaker
and access. And I would love to hear you talk more about what that looks like and what you all are trying to achieve there. Sure, Dean. I think this area is one that is still so under discussed. And it is a growing area. It is a complex area. It is a critical area for access. And I know that LSAC has learned a lot about this because before I joined the organization, we were under a consent decree
00:39:33
Speaker
to make sure that we were providing accommodations properly for the LSAT. Now, you know, law is always the one that people kind of go after in a way. And so we were a bit of a bellwether for all, a lot of, you know, accommodations and across education on that. But we really learned a lot and we came to understand how much more we need to do on the front end to assure accessibility.
00:39:57
Speaker
And this is something that the world still needs to make a lot of change in because you have to design from the start with accessibility in mind. It's not an afterthought of, oh, let me make what works for me work for you. No, let's make it accessible on the front end universally so that more people without needing to have a big process of accommodation can make the changes they need. So we've tried to start to build in a lot more accessibility on the front end in our design of everything we do.
00:40:27
Speaker
And then we've also worked very hard in terms of getting specialists set up who really understand what disability accommodations require to serve the population that needs accommodation. And so I think that there it's going much smoother. There's still improvement we can and want to make. But I want to say that we just hired Angela Winfield as our chief diversity officer, and she herself
00:40:54
Speaker
is very knowledgeable about disability accommodations, given that she is a person that is a member of blind community. And the other day I was talking with Angela about this issue, and I said, you know, Angela, how do you think about it? And she said, Kelly, it's a lot like what you say about tech generally. It's got to work. It's got to work for me. And then it's accessible. And that makes sense, right? That you want to make sure that everyone can
00:41:22
Speaker
and do what needs to be done with the test or the class or whatever it might be.
00:41:29
Speaker
And I think the lesson, I was actually going to ask you about Angela, so I'm glad that you raised her on your own. But I think one of the lessons of what you just said that's so important for a lot of us to hear is the idea that accommodating folks who are living with disabilities is not about just sort of retrofitting what we do or thinking about it after the fact, but really thinking about it as you're constructing whatever it is that you're constructing. How is this going to be accessible to a very wide range?
00:41:57
Speaker
And I don't know that all of us have moved into that space of thinking yet, but we need to get there. Yeah. And I would say, unfortunately, Kim, that I don't think most have. Like websites generally have a lot of accessibility problems, documents. So all of us in Legal Ed, I hope you can all hear this as a call to action too. And we're happy to share what we've learned, but it's also like a lot of things where it does on the front end take extra steps.
00:42:24
Speaker
And when you're trying to build technology quickly because of, you know, it's an extra step sometimes to think about the universal design to make sure, but that's, we have to make that commitment to follow our values and not make it an afterthought. So we have to make that upfront investment.
00:42:42
Speaker
Absolutely. And, you know, I hope that one of the legacies of this pandemic, right, because we're all desperate to figure out what are the good things that will come from this, but it certainly feels like one of the legacies of this pandemic will be there's a lot more that we can do than we thought was possible or than that we were willing to do, you know, before we were forced to do so. So, you know, I do think that five years from now, legal education will look different in a range of different ways.
00:43:10
Speaker
just because we can no longer say, well, if that doesn't seem like something we can do, right? Once you turn your law school into an online law school in the space of two weeks, you don't get to make a lot of excuses about what you can and can't do. That's right. And I think that's one of the best things that we could bring from this difficult time we are still in, is how can we make education more flexible and work for a wider variety of people? And I think there's a lot we can do, things we haven't wanted to do,
00:43:40
Speaker
There's a difference and I absolutely agree with you.
00:43:45
Speaker
So I want to ask you a final question here, and it's just been a pleasure talking to you. And that is, as somebody who has been in legal education for such a long time, who is now working in this very different space of legal education, but one that is so critically important, when you, and maybe you don't spend a lot of time thinking about this, but when you think about your legacy, right? What is Kelly Testy leaving behind?
00:44:12
Speaker
After all of the work that you've been doing in the legal academy over these many, many years, what do you want it to be? What do you want people to reflect on when they think about who you were and what you've done for legal education? Oh, wow. I do feel most of the time so busy doing that. I haven't thought a whole bunch about that. But as you asked the question, a story jumped into my head from when I was a teacher.
00:44:39
Speaker
And there was a woman in my class who was a first gen student and I had called on her in a first year class and she was struggling a little bit with the case. And it's intimidating sometimes when you start. And I didn't even consciously think about it, but she later shared with me that at the moment she was really struggling, I just walked toward her and I said, it's okay, just take a breath. I'm gonna be here with you and we're gonna walk through this together.
00:45:06
Speaker
And she said that moment just changed law school for her. Like she realized that that was something. And of course at the moment, it was just kind of instinctual to walk toward someone. So I think maybe what I would just say is that some people felt like I leaned toward them and helped them in some way and helped them become activated for justice so that we've got more people pushing and getting those boulders up and over that hill.
00:45:31
Speaker
That's great. And that is a tremendous legacy, absolutely. And I can certainly say that I feel like I have deeply benefited from the work that you do and from your commitment to helping the rest of us be as good at this as you are. So thank you so much for that.
00:45:51
Speaker
It really does take all of us and I hope all of you know how much energy I get from working with all of you. Sometimes the work of justice can be lonely and it really helps to know we have friends and colleagues who are joined hands and so thank you very much. Definitely. Thank you so much for your time. It's always a huge pleasure to talk to you and I'm going to continue to look forward to seeing all the great things that are going to come out of LSAC under your leadership.
00:46:20
Speaker
Thank you so much. Great to be with you.