Transcript
Speaker: It really resonated with what my experience was like as a dancer and what I felt like I needed more of and wanted more of because I was a classical dancer in my whole career. I was a Balanchine dancer. And so i think had i been given the opportunity to train before having to present myself in front of a casting day, i would have had more opportunities, different opportunities. So It something that I wanted in my career and now i see it still it still is a need and we were giving it to our trainees. Why can't we give it to our professional dancers?
Speaker: I'm Kaitlyn, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
Speaker: I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Courtney Anderson. Courtney danced professionally with San Francisco Ballet, the Royal Ballet of Flanders, and the Suzanne Farrell Ballet.
Speaker: She is now the founder of The Workshop, a series of five week-long summer intensives created for professional dancers who are seeking deeper artistic growth, expanded versatility, and a meaningful creative process. We're going to talk all about the workshop today, but first, Courtney, let's start from the beginning of your dance journey. Can you tell us why you took your very first dance class?
Speaker: Oh, yes. So i was living in Colorado, and when you're in Colorado as a kid, you're either a skier or an ice skater. And so I was an ice skater when I was little. And my ice skating coach told me i should take a ballet class to help me with my skating. And I think I was around age nine or 10.
Speaker: And so I took my very first ballet class and i thought it was kind of boring. And my mom had taken me to see the Nutcracker and I hated it. I said, never take me to that again. It was so boring.
Speaker: I kept taking a few classes just to help with the skating, but I thought I was going to be an Olympic ice skater. And then as I got older, the ice skating got more challenging and the ballet got easier for me. And I just decided to go that route. And i it was when I had my very first ballet performance. I think I was age 11. And that's what hooked me. It was the performing performance.
Speaker: Okay, so once you decided to take the ballet route, what was your training like when you were growing up? So then my family moved to San Diego and there was this little ballet school that had amazing teachers. Two of them were from retired from the Royal Ballet in England and they ended up in San Diego. And then the director never had a career, but she had phenomenal training. So between those three teachers, I had a really solid foundation for my first two years of training. That's where I really fell in love with dance. And I had this sweet little ballet family of friends that I'm still in touch with. But then my family moved. We went back to Colorado and I joined a couple different ballet schools trying to piece together. at the time, there were not
Speaker: great ballet schools in Colorado, Colorado Springs. And so I was getting a lot of private lessons. We would drive 40 minutes one way to get a private lesson with Margaret and Kathleen Tracy's mother. So they were both dancers with New York City Ballet and their mom had a little shoebox ballet studio in Pueblo, Colorado. So I would get private lessons from her And then Patty Hoffman moved to Colorado Springs and she started giving me private lessons was before she had a school. And now she has a big school in Colorado Springs. So i was just kind of piecing together lessons. And then in eighth grade, I decided I needed to go to the big city of Littleton, Colorado and joined Belliston Academy of Ballet there.
Speaker: And her two kids ended up at School of American Ballet and then Pacific Northwest Ballet for their careers. That teacher produced a couple professional dancers. I came out and then my friend Charlene Cohen went to Miami City Ballet and then San Francisco Ballet. So there were a couple professional dancers that came out of that school. But it it was not like a big professional school. It just it felt like a small little school. And we kind of pieced together our training and did a few competitions, but competitions weren't such a thing back then. so
Speaker: oh I did go to Prix de Luzon with them when I was 16. That was fun. What was your first variation that you did? Oh, probably Keechree from Dong Kyu. And then for Prix de Luzon, I took Gamazadi. Those are the only two I remember. I'm sure I did more.
Speaker: From your training, how did you transition into a professional career? What was your first job? So every summer i did all the summer programs. Those were probably the best memories of my childhood. i loved summer intensives. I never got homesick. I would go away for the five or six weeks and come back and just hold that training for that's kind of what sustained me through the year. All the corrections and the excitement, it it was sort of like a taste of what being a professional dancer was going to be like.
Speaker: So a couple summers I went to SAB and a couple summers I went to P&B. and went to Houston Ballet when I was my very first one. So I think I developed a relationship with the people at Pacific Northwest Ballet. As much as I loved SAB and I loved New York, I just felt it wasn't the competitive environment for me. I'm not a competitive person. So Seattle just felt like a safer route.
Speaker: And so when I was 17 or 18, it was my last summer away. I went to PNB and then I chose to stay for the year. And that was my senior year of high school. So I left high school early.
Speaker: I finished by correspondence. Back then it was like mail correspondence. You send your homework in through the mail. And I did two years as a PD, the professional division at PNB. And our class was amazing. We had about 18 kids in our PD year and every single one of us got a job with a company and we're all still good friends. It was a a really lovely bonding experience, bonding time of my life. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So at the end of the second year of being a PD, we all were auditioning for jobs and I was offered an apprenticeship with Pacific pacificic Northwest Ballet. And then a group of us did an audition tour and San Francisco Ballet offered me a court of ballet contract. And I was torn because at that point, my boyfriend, Garrett Anderson was a PD there with me and he's a year younger than me. So he wasn't ready to leave. So if I was going to go to San Francisco, I'd be leaving my boyfriend. I had never seen San Francisco Ballet or really heard much about them. I never went to their summer program. So it was a sort of an unknown territory for me to go to SFB. But I talked to a lot of people who had spent time in both companies and just that it was a a higher level offer also, corps de ballet. So I decided to go for it. I took the leap and went to SFB and I told Garrett, you know, if this is meant to be, it'll, it'll happen.
Speaker: So I spent the first year San Francisco Ballet and loved it. And then a year later, Garrett got a job at SFP also. So then we were together again, reunited. What were some of the big learning curves that you had going from being a PD and then being in the Corps?
Speaker: As a PD, Ann Dabrowski, and she's actually still there. She's amazing, the ballet rehearsal director. She helped the PDs a lot. And I remember she would specifically tell us how to be a dancer, not just teaching us the steps, the spacing and all that. But she would explain to us, like, you need to go home and review your choreography so that the next day you are prepared for rehearsal. Just little things that it doesn't necessarily occur to a 17-year-old, 18-year-old. I felt like she was really...
Speaker: helpful in teaching us how to be a professional dancer, the studio etiquette, what was expected. And then my teacher at home in Colorado from Belliston, Janine Belliston, she always used to tell us, you need to be learning every single part in the back, even if you're not cast for it. And so that was another thing that kind of stuck with me is that I'm always up, eager, learning, asking for more. What else can I learn? Requesting to learn parts, things like that. So those two pieces of advice I carried with me to becoming a professional dancer. So then once I started in San Francisco, I just remember being so fun. The possibilities were endless and my whole career was ahead of me. It was just a really exciting time.
Speaker: I had to navigate the social aspect of I was a part of this younger incoming group of dancers, but then there were all the older senior core girls and the soloists and the principals, and you don't want to take their spot at bar and you don't want to get in their way at center. Even though everyone at SFB was really lovely and nice and very welcoming, and it did feel like a family, there were some unwritten, unspoken rules that you had to know about and follow. I definitely learned though you know how to navigate all of that.
Speaker: And the company got to tour a lot at the time, which was really fun and really cool. So I saw a lot of America and a lot of Europe that way. So it was a great experience.
Speaker: From there, what made you decide to join a European company? Was it that touring aspect and the opportunity to see other companies? Or how did that happen for you? So san Francisco Ballet, at the time Helge Thomason was the director, and he brought amazing rap and choreographers to the company. We got to do, yeah, yeah work with a lot of amazing people.
Speaker: We had been in the company at that point for eight, seven, eight years. And even though they were amazing, it wasn't amazing rep. It was often the same rep every year or every other year. And so I started to feel like okay, I've experienced this. Like I love Chris Wilden. I love working with him. We got to do a lot of Chris Wilden. I'm trying to think of what else we got to do. I'm blanking. But I just, I had great experiences with all the choreographers that came in and i was ready for something different. And there was one year that we were given to do Artifact. So William Forsyth, and they sent one of his stagers, Amy Raymond, and she changed my life. It was amazing. Such an amazing experience. She just, she showed us what ballet could be going outside of the normal rules of ballet and that it could be extreme from one end to the other, from one fingertip to the tip of your toes and that, oh, you thought you were bending low, you can bend even lower. You thought you had a deep plie, you can go even deeper. So she really pushed me to my limits, all of us to our limits. And I think it just expanded my vision of what dance could be
Speaker: So that was kind of my first taste. I'm gonna rewind a couple years prior. I had done an Alonzo King workshop. He used to, I don't know if he still does, but he used to host a week-long workshop for professional dancers.
Speaker: Again, that was sort of mind-opening for me of, oh, ballet can be outside the box. Ballet can function outside all these rules that I was taught.
Speaker: and And that was my first experience with learning how to improv And it was very scary in the moment. And now looking back, I realized that that definitely had a shift for me in my trajectory. So I think the Alonzo King workshop and then working with Amy Raymond for Artifact, those two things, it helped me realize I want more. And my husband was also, you know, feeling similarly, like really loved his experience with San Francisco Ballet and also wanted to experience something different.
Speaker: So we auditioned for a handful of companies in Europe. It was really fun. We flew over there, took the train to all these different cities and had great experiences, met a lot of really cool people. And when we went to Flanders, it just felt right for both of us. And that year she had ah an opening for two, for both of us. So it just, all all the doors opened for us to do that, go that route. A big draw for both of my husband and I was getting to work with the choreographers that either
Speaker: won't come to America for whatever reason, or they just don't come very often. And so at the time, a lot of American companies were not given the rights to perform some of the Killian ballets and some of the Foresight ballets and Nacho Vato pieces. There's maybe a few, you know, like ah American companies can do Petit Mort, but they're not necessarily going to do, you know, some of the other.
Speaker: So we just wanted more of it. And we certainly got it when we went went to Europe. What were some of the biggest differences that you noticed between dancing in the U.S. and in Europe?
Speaker: Interesting. So the European culture is just in general, whether it's dance or just the secular world, very balanced. So in America and San Francisco, especially, it was such a high performance company in the sense that we had a bajillion shows. It was just like a machine, like we were churning out.
Speaker: And that American work ethic where you're just constantly pushing and pushing and pushing and proving yourself, improving yourself. And as soon as you stop, the next person's in the wing, you know, ready.
Speaker: And in Europe, it didn't feel that way, at least with our experience. I remember we kind of had a joke. One of the ballet teachers would say, it's Wednesday, take it easy. And we just look at each other like, it went like what does Wednesday have to do with that? Like, no, we need to, we have a show in a week. We got to push, we got to go.
Speaker: But it always came together. They just took their time to, you know, they would finish rehearsal early and they would go have a beer on the terrace. And the summer season They would give you a 13-month salary. And I remember when I went to collect my 13-month paycheck, I said, are you sure? this is is this a mistake? And she said, no, no, you need money to take a holiday. was like, oh, of course I do. Thank you. So there's just a different mindset, a different approach. At the same time, they still produce beautiful, high-quality performances and
Speaker: The company that we joined, Royal Ballet of Flanders, the director at the time was Kathy Bennett, and she was William Forsyth's right-hand lady during his Frankfurt company. So we got to do a lot of Forsyth, which was awesome.
Speaker: She's an incredible teacher and an incredible coach. We got to go on tour a lot. One of the differences, too, is American companies tend to get just little excerpts of, like they'll do Artifact Suite, or they'll maybe do one piece of impressing the czar, which is in the middle somewhat elevated. Whereas once when we joined this company, I think having Kathy as the director, she had the rights to anything she wanted, basically. So We did the full length Impressing the Czar and in the middle of that ballet is in the middle somewhat elevated. So just getting to see where that fits into the big picture was a really cool experience. And then we got to do the full length artifact, which is an incredible ballet, life changing piece. And I don't know if this is true for all European companies, but our specific experience is that we would work on this piece for, i don't know, maybe 30,
Speaker: maybe three weeks, kind of typical to an American company. But then we would perform it over and over and over in and multiple parts within that piece because we would take it on tour and tour all around Europe, all these different cities.
Speaker: And it would be over a couple of years. So like we did Artifact Suite our first year and I'm sorry, the full length Artifact our first year. And then we would do it again, you know, the next year and then do it again the third year. So you really get to know the ballet and you really get to experience the the full meaning deeply in your body of of how can I push this limit more? I'm so comfortable with the choreography. How can i hold this musical note even longer? How can I push my body even farther? How can i stretch this line even more? Because you're given the freedom to experiment. You have that opportunity and you have that space and time to really go deeper in the process. Yeah, just the experimenting. So i think that was different
Speaker: And I know there are some American companies that have more repetition, like if you join a Broadway show or if you're on a cruise ship, there's a lot of repetition. But generally, American companies have to cater to what sells because their funding is reliant on ticket sales and donors. And so the programming has to be a big Disney title that's going to sell tickets. And you're going to work two or three weeks to prepare it. And you might get four shows, maybe eight shows if you're a big company, but then you're splitting it amongst a lot of cast members. So you're lucky if you get two or three shows and that might be your only shot at that one part, your whole career.
Speaker: And a lot of it, I think comes down to funding, whereas with the European companies, they do get government funding, which has its pros and cons, but it does allow for companies to choose programming that is artistically inspiring and experimental and fulfilling in a way that doesn't have to rely on, is this going to sell? Is this going to be marketable? I think that trickles down to the dancers experience. So.
Speaker: then the dancer has the ability to do a part multiple times and do a show multiple times and do something that is more experimental. and you know And they do sell because the culture there, people go to the arts in Europe. They go see shows. So there are pros and cons for sure both countries. But I think overall, we were given a deeper opportunity, deeper experience in Europe.
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Speaker: Well, and one thing you're doing now with the workshop is bringing that experience to dancers in Idaho, where you're at currently at Ballet Idaho. So can you tell us what the workshop is and who it's for?
Speaker: Ballet Idaho. So my husband is now the director of Ballet Idaho. After Flanders, he danced with Hubbard Street, which gave him an even more contemporary experience. lens. And then that's when I did my season with Suzanne Farrell. I wanted one last Balanchine moment. It was so fun. And then i was ready to have kids and retire. And he was looking for the next thing. And this opening came up. So he's developed a trainee program. And our friend Glenn Edgerton, who was the director of Netherlands Dance Theater and then the director of Hubbard Street when Garrett was there, we had him come every year to do a Killian workshop with our trainees. And
Speaker: And it's so cool to go watch, you know, these pre-professional dancers learning Killian rep for a whole week. And then at the end of the week, they would just do a little informal studio showing and all the Ballet Idaho company members would come watch and the staff would come watch. And we all were looking around at each other like, this is incredible. How come the professional dancers can't do this?
Speaker: And so I talked to Glenn about the idea and he said, well, the reason is because number one, these are paying students. It's for educational purposes only, and there's no performance attached. So a lot of choreographers are willing to give the rights to teach just for the sake of education, for learning, for expanding their understanding of movement. But there is no performance. And so I thought, well, can we do this for professionals? And Glenn said, let me think about it. Let me talk to Yuri. So he said, yeah, let's do it. And so then I emailed David Dawson, who we had a relationship with from our time in Flanders.
Speaker: And he said, yeah, this is great. And then I emailed Kathy from Forsyth and she said, yeah, let me hook you up with the Forsyth Foundation. And Jill Johnson responded and said, this is very much needed in America. It really resonated with what my experience was like as a dancer and what I felt like I needed more of and wanted more of because I was a classical dancer in my whole career. I was a Balanchine dancer. And so i think had I been given the opportunity to train before having to present myself in front of a casting day in a company, I think I would have i would have had more opportunities, different opportunities. So was something that I wanted in my career. And now I see it still it still is a need. And we were giving it to our trainees. Why can't we give it to our professional dancers?
Speaker: And realizing this this is an issue beyond Ballet Idaho. This is a nationwide issue that professional dancers want more. But once they are at the professional level, there's not time within a company framework. So I had Glenn said yes. David Dawson said yes. We're friends with Jim Vincent, who sets Nacho Duato stuff.
Speaker: He said yes. And we had never had a relationship with Crystal Pipe. Her career was growing in a way that we weren't yet involved with when we were dancing. So that was a cold call. Like I just flat out emailed their executive director and he said, let me pass this on to the artistic team. And they said, this is a great idea. Let's, yes, we'll allow it. And I just was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. All these people are saying yes.
Speaker: All these doors were opening. And so- I think the feedback I kept getting was this is very much needed in America, that professional dancers want and need more time to explore this movement more deeply and to have access to work with these choreographers that maybe their home company can't afford to bring or their home company doesn't have time.
Speaker: a lot of choreographers will require I need this amount of weeks and it's going to cost this much money. And if your dancers don't know my vocabulary yet, we're going to need more time and more money and midsize companies can't afford that. So I feel like this is going to help bridge the gap. It's going to help artistic directors because then their dancers will be familiar with these choreographers vocabulary.
Speaker: And then the choreographer might be more willing to say, yes, I've actually worked with some of your dancers and in the workshop in prior summers. And so I know that there is a group of dancers within your company that's ready for my vocabulary. So yes, I'll give the rights. I'll give permission for my piece.
Speaker: mean, when I watch Ballet Idaho dancers, the rep that my husband brings to the company is phenomenal. And you just see the way that they rise to the occasion every time they are exposed to this new rep and working with the stager. And it's amazing to watch these dancers transform after a couple weeks of weeks of working with a rep editor.
Speaker: And so if we can provide that opportunity for dancers around the country in a summer intensive, and then they're going to go back to their companies just elevated in their abilities, you know, what they've been exposed to, it's it's only going to make dancers more well-rounded.
Speaker: I just want to recap again all the amazing people you have coming because it's really just an incredible lineup of choreographers and reputators. So you have Jim Vincent, who was a reputator for Nacho Duado, Glenn Edgerton, who was a reputator for Erie Killian, Courtney Richardson, who was a reputator for David Dawson, Jill Johnson, who was a reputator for William Forsyth, and Cindy Whalick-Salgado, who's a reputator for Crystal Pikes.
Speaker: And then you also have five additional choreographers coming. Omar Romand de Jesus, who is the director of Boca Tuya. Sidra Bell, who is the director of Sidra Bell Dance New York.
Speaker: As well as choreographers Kirati Jinakunwipats, Baban Tunji, and Houston Thomas. Getting all of these people under one roof and in one room to come to this intensive is...
Speaker: Just really an an incredible opportunity for all dancers. What will a typical day look like for dancers who attend the workshop? so my plan is to offer, we have like the set day. i'm going to offer a few things before and after the day that's optional. I have a friend here who teaches Pilates. She was a ballet dancer and now she's a Pilates teacher. So she's going to do like a morning Pilates warmup for anyone who wants it, maybe 45 minutes.
Speaker: And then we'll have warm-up class. It'll either be a normal ballet class or maybe like a contemporary warm-up class. Some of the visiting stagers want to teach the warm-up class and some of them do not want to. So that'll vary who the teacher is and what the style is.
Speaker: And then we'll have six hours of rep. So it's going to be a big day. And Dancers can choose, you know, they're coming to do this on their off time. So if a dancer wants to piece out after half the day and miss half the material, that's of course up to them. But, and you know, none of this is required, but we will be offering six hours. So it'll be three hours, generally three hours working with one stager, learning one style. And then I'm bringing in five choreographers that are maybe not as well known as Forsyth and Pite and Duarteau and Killian and David Dawson. So,
Speaker: The other choreographers are still very well-known. They're still, they're creating. So we'll do three hours with the well-known stager and then three hours with the newer choreographer. And then at the end of the day, there'll be maybe like a cool-down yoga class for anyone who's interested.
Speaker: And then we're also partnering with Boise State University for the housing dorms, which is pretty affordable. And with that comes a pass to their recreational center. So there's like a beautiful swimming pool and fitness center and workout room and rock climbing wall and hot tub and sauna and all those things. So at the end of the day, the dancers can go...
Speaker: hang out at the pool and sauna if they want to That sounds amazing. I think there is definitely a big disconnect between what maybe an early career dancer thinks a director is looking for and what they're really looking for in a dancer. And I think you've really touched on this quite a bit, but from your perspective, what is really mattering for directors who are hiring dancers and how is the workshop going to help them get those skills?
Speaker: I think the biggest thing is artistry. When I was a dancer, I was very focused on technique and doing everything properly. And then as I matured in my experience, just within San Francisco Ballet, before I even was exposed to more, a friend of mine was dancing with Lines, Alonzo King's company. And I went and saw a show and she, afterwards, she said, you know what did you think? do you have any feedback? you have any corrections for me? And I said, oh, you know, it was so beautiful. it was amazing. This and that. I said, there was one moment I noticed that your foot was kind of sickled in this,
Speaker: position. And she said, Oh, yeah, that was intentional. And I said, Wait, what you intentionally sickled your foot? She said, Yeah, because in that moment, I was trying to be a bug. And I just thought, you know, if I were a bug, the shape that I would be making with my body and how that And it encompassed like every piece of her body, including her foot, and that that just felt like the right bug position to make. And my mind was like, wait, what? You're allowed to sickle your foot for the sake of the artistry of the character of the piece? And so I think that's when I realized there's more than just technique. And that's something that artistic directors are looking for more than just technique, especially nowadays.
Speaker: These kids I see on Instagram and any kid can do 10 pirouettes now. Any kid can get their leg up super high, you know, being a jumper and all the things. And so it's like, OK, well, what's going to make you different?
Speaker: What's going to make you stand out? What's going to make you interesting to watch? Because after a while, all those tricks, they kind of get boring. And so directors, they want an artist in their company. And they also want a collaborative team member. You know, they want someone that socially is going to get along with the group.
Speaker: But being able to collaborate and bring ideas to a creative process. The era of hiring robots is out and directors and choreographers, they want a dancer that's going to be in the room.
Speaker: And has their own ideas and their own interpretations and can collaborate on a process because then the stager gets something out of it. The choreographer gets something out of it. It's this beautiful relationship that happens in the studio that creates art that one or the other wouldn't have created independently on their own. So I think choreographers are really looking now for artists and collaborators. And it's a skill that's difficult to develop within a company setting, especially for young, younger dancers. Maybe they're not as confident. They don't realize that they can have a voice or that they can have an opinion. It's a skill that takes developing and practicing.
Speaker: And in a company environment where there is so little time to throw together a piece and get it on stage, when is a dancer supposed to develop that skill of learning how to collaborate and learning how to experiment with their artistry? And, you know, what happens If I do my arm this way or that way, or if I sickle my foot or don't sickle my foot, how does that affect the character? I think being given the time and the space to experiment and explore and go deeper and have a process is something that is very much needed. And I'm hoping to provide that for this summer intensive for the workshop. And so dancers can choose to come for one week or multiple weeks. So it's like an a la carte summer.
Speaker: And they will be given lots of time and feedback and coaching and experimenting on the how, not just the producing of the final product, but how are we going to approach this? What's the intention? What part of your body does this stem from?
Speaker: think it's going to... be a beautiful week or multiple weeks for the dancers that are able to come. I think that's amazing. And I feel like the lack of artistry starts when we're students. I teach every age group and you have your three-year-olds and they're natural artists, right? they They just perform. They just get out there. They have no inhibitions. They go for it. And then throughout the training, the way that we do the training, and it's necessary to like build the technique in this way, but we sort of hammer out the artistry
Speaker: in an effort to build a technique. And then at a certain point, we're like, okay, now for perform. Right. And they're like, what? I don't know how So I'm curious what your thoughts are on how you can integrate that from an even earlier time to help dancers build the performance quality artistry alongside the technique instead of saying, okay, now let's plop that on at the end.
Speaker: Right. I teach also some some kids, the age that I teach, they're like 11, 12, 13-year-olds. And I've started incorporating that too, because especially classical ballet is taught this way, not that way. And so I've been trying just with the words that I use to say, there are multiple ways to do this. And it's good that you have all of these options in your toolbox.
Speaker: And I would prefer you approach this step this way for this class. Today, I want you to do it this way, but I also want you to know that you can do it this way, this way, that way. And It's good that we practice all the ways. I also often ask them to speak in class in terms of, like, if I ask a question, i want them to answer me, not just smile and nod, which is how we were taught. So giving them a voice and letting them know that they have permission. i remember i was probably in my mid-20s when I realized
Speaker: oh, I don't need permission to do this or to try this. i can just do this or try this. So letting the dancers know that, and I guess this is true for kids or professionals, And Ballet Idaho has done a beautiful job. Ann Mueller is the associate director and Garrett, they both have created this culture that it's a safe environment where dancers feel safe to experiment. We're trying to do that with the kids too. Like, what does it feel like to go so far that you do fall? I remember my teacher saying, you know, if you fall, it's a good thing. It means you're really trying. They would say that, but they didn't really mean it because they didn't want anyone to fall. But in this environment, I think we are actually saying yes.
Speaker: Push yourself so far that now you know where your limits are. And this is the time and place that we experiment. So I think teaching kids in the studio and when they mess up, we you know we don't shame them or reprimand them. ah That was an amazing effort. You just experimented with something.
Speaker: And then did it work? No. Okay, why Why didn't that work? What happened in your body just then? What part of your body went too far? How can you pull it back the other way? Which part of your body do you need to counterbalance in order to find that suspension in the middle? So I think just using experimental language, using experimental moments in the class when you're teaching kids about Okay, that didn't work. And why? Let's try it again. Let's try it again. And also I regularly tell them, i don't know the answer. we're going to have to figure this out together. I know how to do it in my body, but you're going to have to find it, what it feels like to find in your body. So let's experiment.
Speaker: Try putting your hip more over your toe on this pirouette. Okay, that didn't work. Now try putting your rib more over your toe. Okay, that made it a little better. What if you do your ah two hands on one shoulder? How did that help? So really just having an environment of experimenting and then they feel confident I'm allowed to experiment. I have permission to experiment. And building in that critical thinking piece where you're saying, okay, that didn't work. Why didn't it work? Let's figure figure it out. So it's experimentation with process and moving forward into finding the solution. Because i think that's another thing when you think about what dancers need when they're becoming a professional is that ability to figure out solutions on their own. You're training, you to have someone talking you through that. There comes a time in your career where you have way less of someone talking you through that and you have to do that in your own mind.
Speaker: You're exactly right. Yeah. Being able to coach yourself and teach yourself Because once you get in a company, depending on how many dancers there are, like San Francisco, we had 75 dancers.
Speaker: I would maybe get one correction a week. It was, yeah, definitely. you've Now you're on your own. You got to figure this out on your own. So being able to yeah know how to self-reflect and ask yourself why and yeah being confident to experiment.
Speaker: I think that sometimes, at least I felt this way as a professional, dancers can feel hesitant to invest in training at this stage of your career, partially because of time, partially because of finances, lots of different reasons. So can you share with us why you think dancers should attend this intensive? Why should they invest in themselves and their training even if they've been in the professional career for a long time? like What is the benefit of doing this? That is some feedback that I've heard from a couple dancers is, I need my summers to go earn money. I need my summers to go do gigs that are going to pay me.
Speaker: And one of the things that I, when I first had this idea is I knew I needed to make it affordable for dancers. And I knew that I needed to pay the choreographers really well so that they would want to come back year after year.
Speaker: So having these two ideals, I'm finding sponsors to try to fill the gap. So for a younger dancer who's maybe just starting out their career, I think this is a perfect opportunity to give yourself this exposure and access so that you have all these doors open for you about how casting might happen within the company or which type of company you think you want to go for. It'll only just prepare the younger professional dancer for different paths within their one company or or different companies that they can take. I remember when we were kind of at the mid-stage of our career, 27 years old. I had already been in San Francisco Ballet for seven years, i think by that point, and Pacific Northwest Ballet for two years because I performed with them a ton.
Speaker: So I had a good number of years under my belt. And that's when I was at the stage where i i wanted more. And i felt like I had to leave my company in order to have more, to get exposed to more and have access to more.
Speaker: And I'm hoping that this experience might help a mid-experience level company member stay in their home company longer because they are getting exposure and access on their summer breaks. That's ah around the age where dancers might start to feel burnt out.
Speaker: The casting becomes pretty predictable. The rep that their company is going to do becomes pretty predictable. And so having a summer away where you get to work with stagers and choreographers and learn the rep that you're not going to get to do in your home company, I think is the rejuvenation and inspiration that, you know, a middle-aged dancer might need. That's what I needed when I was 27 and I really started searching.
Speaker: And then for the, you know, the dancer that is maybe towards the end of their career, i remember Muriel Maffray was ah principal, you know, French ballerina with San Francisco. And she was, I think, in her early 40s at this point. And she asked Helgi if she could do a season with Alonzo King's company because she had done her career. She had done everything she wanted, you know, within San Francisco Ballet. And there were just some experiences that she never got to have being in this one company. So she asked if she could do a season with Alonzo King. And then she asked if she could
Speaker: start doing her own kind of experimental shows on the War Memorial Opera House stage. And so Helgi let her do a few side projects. And just to see her go through that at the end of her career was so beautiful that she was still hungry as an artist, even though her body was obviously, you know, at the stage where she was going to need to think about retiring. At and a certain point, your toes just don't want to go on point anymore.
Speaker: But she was still hungry as an artist. And just because that classical ballet part of her was ready for change, the artistic part of her still wanted more. And so I think this workshop could be an amazing opportunity for that dancer too, that's maybe towards the end of their career. They feel like, you know, they're fulfilled in a lot of ways, but there are a few things that they wish they could have done or a few people that they wish they could have worked with. And so I think this is an opportunity for that dancer as well. Yeah.
Speaker: And I think it's definitely a case to be made for a company to maybe invest in their dancers who want to attend and send them. Because like you said, if you have dancers in your company who have experience with these choreographers, then they may be more likely to come to your company and it can be really full circle. So for even the professional company to make the investment in your dancers to send them, if that is the limiting factor,
Speaker: I think would be a really amazing thing too. So I'd love to see that happening also because I know we talked about this briefly, but this is something that I would have loved to have as a dancer that didn't really exist as far as I knew. And so it's just such a beautiful opportunity. And I totally get the feeling of like, I need some time off. I need to work. I need to do all these things.
Speaker: But like you said, you can just get kind of stuck and a little bit burnt out and having these opportunities and the ability to be like back in a student mindset and just feel like okay to make mistakes. I think also as you get farther in your career, at least I felt this way, i felt more and more scared to make mistakes as opposed to less because I was like, well, now there's an expectation. When I was first starting out, it was like, well, I'm new. And if I for something that doesn't work, I felt like, well, I'm young. Like I'm just still learning. But then at a certain point, I felt like I have to always be on because people are looking to me to be on.
Speaker: And it can be kind of stifling. Every day felt like an audition. Yeah. Yeah. So to have this place where it's like there is no casting or is there a performance? No.
Speaker: Just learning choreography and getting to experiment. Yeah. There'll be a little in-studio showing just to kind of show the progress. And it might only be three quarters of the piece that we got, you know, to learn that far.
Speaker: But yeah, no casting. That's a good point that you bring up because I remember, and this is still how it functions, right? When a visiting choreographer comes or the stager, they probably don't know the company or if they've worked at company before, there's always new dancers every year. So they come watch company class and it's basically an audition and they pick out, you know, which dancers they want in their piece. So when you're upfront, you have maybe 40 minutes, right, to choose who's going to be in the piece. And sometimes they'll do like a full company call and they'll workshop some of the vocabulary. And so maybe you'll get a day or two of workshopping, which again, it's an audition process. And for the dancer who...
Speaker: has had exposure to different kinds of movements or different kinds of rep, they're going to stand out. They're going to get picked. They're going to get chosen. So again, I was in my mid twenties. I had had almost a decade of a career under me and I was consistently chosen for the classical stuff and the Balanchine stuff. And I loved that. It felt right in my body. But at a certain point, I wanted to be the one that was chosen for the other things. But I wasn't because it was obvious that I hadn't i didn't have the exposure or the experience in it.
Speaker: You the kids that had gone through Juilliard were the ones that were chosen. And that just wasn't my path. And so I remember thinking, well, how am I supposed to get this experience if I'm never chosen to learn it?
Speaker: And so I would ask, you know, even though i wasn't chosen for this piece, can I learn and just be in the back? And they would say, yeah, sure. But that's different. It's a different depth of learning when you're front working with the choreographer versus in the back, just learning what you can on your own. So I did as much as I could. But having a week like this, I think would have been career changing for me because it really is just about exposure and access and having a safe space to do it.
Speaker: How do you see the workshop changing the landscape of ballet here in the U.S.? What's the big picture, hope of yours? So right now, i feel like companies are it was even more extreme when I was a dancer. Companies are kind of coming closer now, but there's the extreme. So some companies are classical companies, and then some companies are more modern contemporary dance companies. And then nowadays, I would say dancers are expected to be able to do all of it within one company. I think the workshop, dancers are going to be going back to their home companies more well-rounded.
Speaker: So this company that used to have a reputation of a classical company, their dancers will now have the experience of doing contemporary movement in a way that when a contemporary choreographer is hired to come in, those dancers are going to have that experience. It'll just be, well, first of all, they'll be given the permission to do that piece more easily.
Speaker: And those dancers will be, they'll be more ready with the vocabulary. So if the choreographer says, I want you to do X, Y, and z The dancer knows what that means. They know how to do it. They know what it feels like in their body. It'll make the process go faster, which can save directors money because they might only need three weeks instead of six weeks, you know, to stage a piece. So I think it's going to help the artistic development and it's going to help the range of choreography that companies will be able to do and that dancers will be able to do. Yeah.
Speaker: Last question for you. If you had to give dancers who are pursuing their professional ballet career one piece of advice, what would you tell them? Attend the workshop. I'm in Boise, Idaho this summer.
Speaker: I think for for younger dancers to keep an open mind. i remember as a young dancer thinking i had to do it this way. And just knowing that there are many ways and many paths and Dancers now are going through college, through universities, and then getting hired into companies. That wasn't happening when I was a dancer.
Speaker: And it's okay to be a big fish in a little pond and start your career out with a smaller company and get soloists and principal roles under your belt and then join a big company. That works too. Or if you're going to have the big company experience right away, you're going to have to be in the back, pushing yourself, coaching yourself, teaching yourself. So many paths to having a very fulfilling career.
Speaker: And I think the more you can expose yourself to, the more opportunities you'll have, the more doors that will open. a choreographer will come in and and see someone's experience and level of artistry and that they bring something different than just another cookie cutter dancer. Yeah, because when you're watching an audition company class or whatever for an hour and a half, you're not just seeing that hour and a half, you're seeing all the work and the training that's gone into that dancer's progression before that. So all of that leads up to that moment.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. You can see who... i mean Pretty much anyone in the room is going to be qualified, right? So the director up front or the stager up front, when they're looking at casting something, they're looking at, oh, that person just fell out of that turn. How did they handle that?
Speaker: Did they storm off and stomp away? Or did they turn it into some cool contemporary swirl? Or did they you know smile and finish as best as they could? or I have three boys now. My kids have a book. I think it's called A Beautiful Oops.
Speaker: So when you do an oops-a-daisies and you mess up, how do you turn it into something beautiful? I think choreographers are are looking at that, not just the perfection performance, but the how and the why. What's driving that artist?
Speaker: Yeah. Okay, so for anyone listening who wants to learn more about the workshop, can you tell us where they can go? Yes. So we have a new beautifully built website.
Speaker: It's www.theworkshop.dance. We're also, we have an Instagram page. Also, it's called theworkshop.dance. Yeah, those two places, you can get all the information. If anyone has any questions, welcome to email me or text me or call me.
Speaker: And we are offering lots of incentives for tuition reduction to try to keep it affordable for dancers. So If you can refer a friend, you get $100 off for every friend that registers. so And then we have some other ambassadorship opportunities, either helping to promote the workshop or one of our sponsors is a children's book author. Once Upon a Dance is the name of her book series line. And she is offering, if anyone wants to be a Once Upon a Dance story ambassador, then there's extra discount extra scholarships for that.
Speaker: So we have a few opportunities to help save money to keep it affordable. So ideally, a dancer can get it down to $400 or even less, depending, you know, if they are willing to put in a little effort, they can have a pretty affordable intensive. Amazing. Thank you so much, Courtney. This is an incredible opportunity. I hope every dancer listening at least visits the website and learns more and hopefully comes to the workshop. I am so grateful for everything you're doing to bring this to dancers here in the U.S. This is just a great opportunity, and I'm really appreciative of your time today.
Speaker: Thank you so much. It's my pleasure. Thanks.
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