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87. Leading Ballet Tucson Into a New Era with Artistic Director Margaret Mullin
179 Plays9 days ago
In this episode of The Brainy Ballerina podcast, I’m joined by Margaret Mullin, Artistic Director of Ballet Tucson and former Pacific Northwest Ballet soloist, for an honest conversation about career longevity, leadership, and what it truly takes to sustain a life in ballet, both on and off the stage.
Margaret shares her journey from an aspiring dancer growing up in Tucson, to a 14-season professional career at PNB, and ultimately to stepping into artistic directorship during one of the most uncertain moments in our industry. Along the way, she opens up about the realities dancers don’t always expect: the sudden drop-off in feedback after joining a major company, the emotional weight of being passed over, and the resilience required to keep showing up.
This episode is a must-listen for dancers navigating career transitions, educators thinking about the bigger picture of arts training, and anyone curious about how thoughtful, human-centered leadership can shape the future of ballet.
Key Points in This Episode:
- Training at home vs. leaving early, and the long-term benefits of having access to quality dance training in your community
- The reality of transitioning from student to professional, including the sudden drop in feedback
- Why dancers must learn to advocate for themselves and seek out mentorship
- The emotional impact of casting, being passed over, and finding value beyond roles
- Why process matters more than performance in long-term artistic growth
- Skills beyond technique that support career longevity: discipline, resilience, and follow-through
- Preparing for leadership and life after performance before retirement arrives
- Why artistic directors need education in management, leadership, and nonprofit work
- Rethinking what healthy, human-centered leadership in ballet can be
Connect with Margaret:
WEBSITE: ballettucson.org
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/margaretmullin
BALLET TUCSON INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/ballettucson
SCHOOL OF BALLET TUCSON INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/schoolofballettucson
Links and Resources:
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Early Passion for Ballet
00:00:00
Speaker
We work really hard to hold ourselves very accountable and work-wise, i always say that we expect a lot lot of hard work and a lot of dedication and a lot of professionalism and care for the craft, but what everyone can know is that we are also doing that work.
00:00:14
Speaker
We are really pouring ourselves into this organization. So it's like any level I hold any dancer to is 100% level i hold myself to.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:00:58
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Margaret Mullen. Margaret is the Artistic Director of Ballet Tucson, and she is a Tucson native who trained at the School of Ballet Tucson and later enjoyed a 14-season career as a soloist with Pacific Northwest Ballet. And we're gonna talk all about your experience today and your leadership at Ballet Tucson, but let's start at the very beginning of your dance journey, and we would love to hear why did you take your very first dance class?
00:01:30
Speaker
Thank you for having me. So I love ballet and I always have loved ballet. That is why I took my first class. i was one of those kids where, you know, my mom took me to my first ballet when I was four years old and I was instantly just absolutely hooked. It was Ballet Arizona's Coppelia. can still remember a scene from that ballet from when I was four, like vivid picture of it. Yeah, it was one of those love at first sight kind of moments and My mom was actually hoping that wouldn't be the case. She grew up dancing a bit herself through college and just knew how hard it was and then even harder to find paying work as a dancer and how competitive it could be. So she was really actually very much hoping I would fall out of love with it and get into something else when I was very athletic kid and did cross country and track and field and things like that. But nothing captured my heart like ballet did. And that emotional expression component was really...
00:02:24
Speaker
Key for me, I think, just had a difficult relationship with my dad and I needed some kind of artistic outlet and just ballet was it. It was all the athleticism plus a deep emotional impact. And as a kid, that's always been, even as an adult, I tend to be on the quieter side. It was a way for me to tap into things and express things that I couldn't always find words for.
Training and Professional Journey
00:02:43
Speaker
So ballet just became my true love and kept doing it until I retired from doing it. Now help other people do it. So what was your training like growing up?
00:02:51
Speaker
I was really, really lucky, and and it's something that i work really hard to continue with our school now. When I finally went to Pacific Northwest Valley as a professional division student, I became very aware of how many of my fellow students and then my colleagues, as I became a professional, had to leave home pretty early to pursue dance seriously and rigorously.
00:03:10
Speaker
And i do feel so fortunate that the School of Valley Tucson exists and existed because I was a kid that had a lot of financial barriers. I couldn't afford to go away even for summer programs unless I had a full ride scholarship that was the circulation Not out of harshness, my mom just based on the reality of our situation with her as a single mom.
00:03:29
Speaker
For me, I started at a very small school and it was called Sue's Dance Studio. Really, really tiny school. And then I remember I was in elementary school and one day we showed up for classes, my mom and I, and the school was just closed.
00:03:42
Speaker
No warning, there was just a sign on the door. It was like, okay, we're done. Good luck, everyone. So... My mom reached out to an old friend of hers who used to be a professional dancer and asked for his guidance, you know, kind of just went through the phone book back in the day with phone books, went through the phone book with him on the phone and just asked, you know, where should I send her now? it was it was actually a really nice little school, but I did want to be pushed a little bit more and she wanted me pushed more. So it's kind of Good timing in some senses, but he recommended the school Valley Tucson and that was it. So we shifted over and I think I was nine or had just turned nine when I joined the school. So I was still quite young and then proceeded to stay in the school until I was 18 years old. realize now how rare that is. The fact that I actually got to
00:04:28
Speaker
stay at home. i got to go to normal high school. At the time, all I wanted to do with was dance, of course, and I did want to go away. But in hindsight, as an adult, I'm so glad actually that I stayed at home, had more time with my family, had more time with my friends. It forced me to get to know more people that weren't dancers, which has been a constant part of my life as an adult, as having friends and also my husband who have nothing to do with dance, but love it through my connection to it now. But yeah, I actually had, ah i feel like a really rare experience of getting to be right at home until 18, graduating high school, normal time, and still having really excellent training. And I was so ready when I went to PNB. I was immediately pulled into a lot of court of ballet stuff as a professional division student. I ended up with an apprenticeship after my one year as a PD versus having to do two years in the program. They just felt like I was a strong dancer, but also capable of learning choreography quickly and being a good team player and all those things. So yeah I got that just right here in Tucson. So for me now as the head of the organization, it's really important to me that our kids in school experience that going forward and and not just to become dancers, but I think there's a lot of life lessons that arts education teaches you that I hope to pass on for them to be successful in whatever they do. What were some of the biggest adjustments for you, both physically and mentally, when you transitioned from a student to a professional contract at PNB? Oh, gosh, I think we start to do things a little bit differently here. But the hardest thing for me was realizing just how on your own you are in a lot of companies as far as feedback and help and coaching. I've always been and I had to find it for myself as a professional dancer. It took me a few years to discover it's like I really want to do this well. I love this so much. And I want to know, you know, I want to know if something's not right or looking right or feeling right, or I want to do the best I can. I want to live this career to the fullest. I was really fortunate. We had Paul Gibson as one of the rehearsal directors at PNB when I was there. And he's an
00:06:25
Speaker
Excellent coach and amazing, amazing teacher who I now get to work with. He's not with PNB anymore, but now I get to work with him because he works with our company sometimes. But he's only one person, a part of a staff that's with the larger company. And so I got some time with Paul, but not all the time with Paul because he was staging maybe ballets I wasn't in or... things like that. So i didn't realize in joining the company just how much that was immediately going to drop off. Not all coaching, but a lot of coaching drops off and you're just expected to produce. you know You don't get the time to really deep dive into things as you want to, or at least for me as a dancer, as I wanted to. I really wanted to go deeper into the process for everything that I did and that really
Artistic Process and Audience Impact
00:07:05
Speaker
dissipated. It became about well, you have three days to learn this ballet and you're going to perform it in a couple more days. And so that's it. Get an onstage kind of thing, like more of a mass produced feeling, which I wasn't expecting and realizing so much that I had to in
00:07:19
Speaker
looking at role models I had within the company, just noticing how much they were taking their own time to work on things. And it's already hard. You're already in rehearsal a lot, and it's very demanding to begin with. But if you really want to do it as you want to do it You're kind of expected to carve out your own time, your own hours to do additional training. And also asking each other, I very early on was fortunate that Lindsay Deck, who's still a dear friend of mine, who runs a school in Texas now, and Kylie Kitchens in particular, who were both in the quarter at the time and then moved their way up through the company, When I was kind of struggling with that with a little bit, they were always very nurturing to me and kind of like big sisters. And then they they started offering their time. theyre Like, let's look at your variation. You know, after class, we'll go into another studio and Let's look at the solo and we'll give you feedback and things. And that meant so much to me and was also just very important to my growth, that continued feedback. You know, some dancers I think maybe like to be a little bit more independent, but please, anything you see, tell me. Please just tell me, you know, even if it's like a little correction, like some kind of transition that could have been a little smoother. So I then started realizing that so many of my favorite teachers from when I was in the school at PNB and going for the summers had started teaching the adult open classes. And so I would then start occasionally taking an adult open class and
00:08:25
Speaker
And then also started just asking them with once I was done with company class and they were done teaching open class, if we could connect and knowing that some of them had been dancers in the company. And I remember Alexander Dixon was also a great coach for me of, you know, she'd been a soloist with the company and beautiful dancer. And she had danced some of the roles that I was in starting to dance. So I started getting her feedback. She sees so much. and She understands so much about physicality. ah So I would then just on the side. Talk to this other dancer who, you know, this teacher that was not professionally affiliated with the actual company, but had been at the company herself. So started to just find those connections. But yeah, I really, i think one, didn't realize how much the feedback stops. And two, didn't realize oftentimes, especially for larger companies, just how little time you get to work on things and how scattered the experience would be. I remember having, you know, maybe like a week with a stager in the middle of Nutcracker for ballet that we would then do three months later. And you're expected to just remember everything and maintain everything on your own. And then it's like, well, you already learned this. Like, well, I mean, kind of, like very kind of learned this. It's a little bit more of a machine than I realized. And it's something we, again, in our company, try to do differently. We do move quickly through rep, but we try not to make it feel quite so. You're completely on your own and you're like, I hope that looked okay. Or I hope that went well. I don't know.
00:09:40
Speaker
What are some of your favorite moments that you could share from your professional dancing career? i had a lot of moments that were really special to me on stage, but I think now that I've been retired for five years, going on six years, time flies. For me, I'm realizing more and more just how much it was process driven for me, like the really dear moments and being in the studio and and people driven. I think what I'm most grateful for in my time is certain people I got to work with, you know, Paul being one of them. But also someone i actually still keep in touch with. We just little FaceTime date over the holiday break. Rosalyn Anderson, who is a premier Killian stager.
00:10:15
Speaker
She is just such a wonderful person and has such a fertile, beautiful mind around movement and artistry. She was one of those people that, you know, as a guest would come in and just do the utter deep dive, all the detail and all the understanding of this work that you're holding. And especially, you know, these masterpieces that I feel really lucky to have danced. Her process was just So phenomenal. Every time talk to her, I'm like, please know how grateful I am like i just am so grateful for my time with you. yeah i only got to work with her twice in my entire career, but... It's people like that, that really defined my experience and made the time in the studio feel so special and then made me feel not only ready, but even more excited to be a part of these masterworks. To me, it wasn't just about doing the pieces. It was about really holding them with integrity and honoring them. And those were the people that empowered me to do that in the way that I wanted to. So I've really just, I feel like become highly reflective now that I'm retired about the time in the studio versus the time on stage. I hope to have that passed down to our dancers too. I think the process is really undervalued a lot of time in the dance world. It's all about the big shiny moment on stage, but it's so not, there's just so much to discover.
00:11:29
Speaker
within this art in every moment. And so much of that happens in the studio. I really appreciate that even more now. And beyond that, I think just moments on stage-wise, the moments i actually really mean a lot to me are just the moments that I got audience feedback and not like, oh, bravo, not like know not the the pat on the back. But I will never forget in my last season PNB,
00:11:51
Speaker
One of the last reps I did actually before the pandemic, there was a contemporary piece that I did. It was one of those things that happens as a dancer. And I think people don't understand when you're a leading dancer where sometimes there's kind of like a, you had your time and now there's this other shiny, new, exciting person like company and you do start getting passed over for stuff. And there was this rep that I was really considering what I had been doing with the company for years, very undercast. I was basically in just this one piece of...
00:12:14
Speaker
three or four works I can't remember on the program and things I was pretty well suited to but just wasn't in which can happen you know it's not always smooth sailing and you don't always get to check every single box and I think it's one thing that dancers don't always understand is things ebb and flow sometimes and anyway I was barely in this wrap and so I was just in this one piece but I did have a solo within the piece that was pretty emotional, but didn't have a story. Like the emotion was in the music. And I was also given permission within the solo to have it be different every time, which was interesting. And I'm not, you know, it's like, I need that artistic. I do believe in it's like the choreography is choreography. That's actually a beautiful, wonderful thing. But in this particular thing, it the timing, like choreography always stayed the same, but I was really supposed to kind of just stay in the groove of the orchestra and like whatever felt like needed to happen in that moment within the actual choreography and within the emotion of the music that was hearing and their timing was what I was open to interpreting. And so i really poured myself into that. And i think for me myself, I was feeling not the greatest at the time because I was kind of cut out of the lot the rep. So for me, it was hitting me very emotionally and i was trying to find something deeper. in myself to put out there because I was feeling something pretty deep at the time as far as my own value as a dancer went. And I remember leaving the theater and I'd really like really given it all, but I was feeling sad. It's like, all right, well, I just gave my heart out there and then here I walking away because I'm not in the rest of the show and I'm done for the day. And I remember passing ah the front of the theater and it was during an intermission. So you don't often see patrons outside during intermission, but this woman had gone outside and she was like, excuse me, excuse me, wait, wait, wait. I was like,
00:13:44
Speaker
Yes. And she's like, were you just in the show? Were you just on stage? And I said, yeah, I was. And she's like, oh my, she's I have to tell you, I just came outside because I came outside to cry. She's like, I don't know what you were thinking. I don't know what you were feeling exactly, but I've been dealing with a lot of my life right now. And something about that just really, touched me and I just wanted to thank you because I needed the release right now. And she's like, I don't even know what was going on in your head or like what the piece was about. And she's like, I don't think there was a story. It kind of seemed like maybe there wasn't a story, but she's like, I don't know what it was, but I just had like a really big moment
Challenges and Skills in Dance
00:14:14
Speaker
and I just wanted to thank you. And I was like, oh my God. So that's something I always try to remind our dancers of too. It's like, you never know how, what we're going to do actually genuinely impact someone. And just knowing that like she said, I needed a release. and I got that was really special to me. So I'm really proud of knowing that like i had moments as a performer. I was always a perfect dancer, but I feel like I really did have moments where I hear now still like certain things that I did like actually touch someone. And that's the wow for me. like Like I can't believe I actually like emotionally impacted anyone. That's really cool to be able to have done that. So. Anyway, i'm getting emotional. I got emotional listening to that story. Yeah, that's amazing. And even going back to what you were saying about the process, I have been thinking about this lately, how it is very interesting with how much technology we have, how easy it is to say, go watch the video and learn a piece and how much gets missed in that process. Because there's just things that you know, as a dancer, that you can only pass down through that communication and like,
00:15:13
Speaker
You will never know that by watching a video and there's just that value of the person-to-person connection never goes away no matter how much technology we have. Oh yeah. I think we drive our dancers crazy sometimes. Like sometimes we will give study videos, but we always like hand over video. like, caveat, there might be something different in this or it's live theater. And that I will say my aversion to sharing videos with dancers is kind of a two-pronged thing. One, it grew out of having to have learned literal whole ballets off of video book, which i think is such an undervaluable experience as a dancer. And it's so unfortunate that ballet companies do that to dancers, I think. But additionally, it's definitely an aversion I picked up from Rosalind Anderson from the Killian Trust. Actually, when I had a podcast, I interviewed her for my podcast. we were talking about the process and I asked her what her preferred process is with dancers. And she said, I basically, whenever I can, were refuse was
00:16:01
Speaker
to let dancers look at videos of Killian works. It's impossible. your Your curious mind wants to interpret so much in the what you see. And she's like, you know, all these videos, dancers have off days, live theater, things happen, changes happen, not always intentionally. So first of all, there's just the actual facts of the piece can shift. But also too, she's like, you know, I want to be in the room and I want to be explaining the quality of exactly what I want and like what Killian has told me that he wants in his works. I want that time and for people not to come in with preconceived notions about what the piece is based on video that they've seen. So I hold that with me. and It's like you have to pry a video out of my hands a lot of the time. And oftentimes it's like well, i just want to study the musicality. I'm like, okay, if you promise, if you absolutely promise.
00:16:48
Speaker
Especially we've been had the great pleasure of working with Paul Gibson a couple of times now, you know, having been at PNB as rehearsal director, but he's also a great choreographer. And we do some of his choreography here. And he is really in love with now coming back to these pieces that he made for PNB with us and making changes. As a choreographer, you do something at one point in your life and you come back you're I don't like that.
00:17:07
Speaker
And you want to shift it. So that's also the other thing too, is like, okay, well, if you look at this too, you still have to be prepared. Like he might change any and all of this. Just as a heads up, don't get too married to interpretation you're seeing, but it is one, the choreography itself may change, but two, because you're a different dancer. And he always says that, like, he's like, I love working with different dancers on pieces. I don't think they should be carbon copies of each other. And what Carla did is not what Sarah has to do, because Sarah's on Carla and that's not a bad thing. It just means they're different people. So I might want her to like. have a different interpretation because she is a different person. There's also that, um you know, it's a trap sometimes that dancers fall into because we do have a correctionist tendency and we do want to replicate the quote unquote success of what what we're seeing. We then might try to just like plaster that on ourselves in a way that isn't functional in the same way. So that's, I think the other danger zone of losing that humanity in the room with the person at the front of the room is sometimes you can get a little stuck. Again, that preconceived notion I think is the perfect way of explaining that. Yeah, exactly. Looking back on your 14 years as a professional, what are some of the skills outside of technique that you feel were the most critical for you to have a long, sustainable career?
00:18:15
Speaker
That's a really good question. I think for me, and this is something I talked to the level sixes and sevens are our higher levels of the school about a lot as well as arts education. And I think that the pursuit of a dance career really teaches you. not only discipline, but that like stick-to-it-ness that is so essential in life. And I think about our company dancers all the time, and our students all the time, especially because of the social media component and everything that's happening in the world. This is a really complex world that we live in. Beyond professionally or personally, there is so much to navigate in the world, in our lives, in our professions. I find myself talking to them a lot about embracing the beauty of having the strength to see something through because not everyone has that. And that's something I actually hear a lot from my husband and his work. He is not a dancer at all. nothing to do with dance. He's in tech and he's like, you know, so often i feel like I'm being applauded and rewarded by employers just for what feels to me like following through and doing my job well and like having an attention to detail as a person. And he's a musician on the side. So like his passion is music. He's not doing a job that is his passion. He is one of those people that likes that separate where it's like, I go to work, I do my job.
00:19:31
Speaker
but it's not make or break for me emotionally. It's my work. On the side is what I have, what I care about, which is my wife, my family, and my music. So it's not like he's pouring his heart and soul into his workday at all, but just having that resolute professionalism. And I think that is for him, something he learned from music education and for dancers is something you can learn from dance education. Caring about something as a kid to that level and following through and showing up every day and being reliable being learning to communicate because there's a responsibility. You are responsible for really investing your time and your energy into this thing. I've learned that not a lot of adults actually get to experience that as kids, that consistent high expectation around showing up even when it's hard. And that's something I tell the kids. I actually told them that on Saturday. I told them I was really proud of them for Nutcracker. It's a group that I've just seen really grow a lot, not just as dancers over the past year, but also as people. and they're finding that dedication in themselves. and I tell them, it's like, whatever you do in life, our goal is to equip you to be happy, successful people, no matter what you try to do in this world. You know, we want to know that you're going to be okay.
00:20:40
Speaker
And there's all these lessons that come out of this education that like, we want you to be happy. That's what we're trying to equip you with. And I told them, you do be aware that you all picked something really hard to care this much about.
00:20:53
Speaker
But that's a beautiful thing because not everyone knows what that feels like. And not everyone gets that experience that pursuit of excellence doesn't have to be a bad thing or like a thing that torments you. it can be a very positive thing in your life. And mastery of a craft is not something that everyone gets to experience the process of. And I think just that daily commitment is like, there will be good days, there will be bad days, there will be days you do not want to come. There will be days where you just feel awful, but consistently always following through. It's a muscle you build, showing up, falling through And that's something, you know, do you have a family, you know, showing up for your kids every day. All these people in my life, I have all these different things that they do And there are daily weekly, monthly, yearly challenges that show up that require you to be your best self when you don't feel like you can. And learning how to have resolute commitment to the things that you care about, whatever that ends up being, is more powerful than people realize.
Leadership and Artistic Vision
00:21:54
Speaker
For me, more than anything, there's of course like a whole laundry list more of arts education you benefits. But what I'm realizing now, and I'm a board member for Tucson Young Professionals, and so I'm surrounded by young professionals, people 21 to 45 in our group, but also I'm on this board with all these people that do all these different things, very separate from what I do, and are all living different lives, and some kids, without kids, some taking care of parents now. Getting closer to 40, I have friends that are in their early 40s that now have parents that are having health issues that They are now starting become responsible for their parents. Like, wow, we've hit this time of life. But what I see in all those people that I see be successful in what they do is this determination when it's tough. That's the daily practice of showing up as a ballet dancer and the dancer in general. Like it's just so hard in and of itself. It's just hard to do. So you having to show up for the hard work is building regularity around that in your life. I think is really actually quite powerful building resilience. Yep. So well said.
00:22:50
Speaker
If you're a dancer who's feeling lost, overwhelmed, or even just unsure about your next career step, I am here for you. As a former professional ballet dancer turned dance career mentor, I help dancers get clear on what they really want out of their careers and build a real, actionable strategy to get them there.
00:23:09
Speaker
Whether you need help setting goals, planning for auditions, navigating mindset blocks, or just having someone in your corner who gets what you're going through and can hold you accountable, mentorship can make all the difference.
00:23:23
Speaker
If you're curious about whether working with a dance career mentor is the right fit for you, i offer a complimentary career consultation so we can talk through your unique goals and challenges.
00:23:33
Speaker
Just head to the show notes to schedule your consultation and let's fill the dance career you've been dreaming about. I want to transition to talking about your work as a director now. Did you always know that you wanted to be a company director and how was that transition for you? You went straight out of your professional career into this role, right?
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. I was reflecting on this last night. I have oftentimes said I was a really weird kid and always knew that I wanted to be an artistic director, but I should stop saying that now because now i hope that maybe there's a bunch of kids that are going to imagine, you know, if you see the memes online of like my seven-year-old just said they're going to be the astronaut. and They're like, yeah, sure, go for it. So I think maybe I should be shifting. Like there will now be many kids that want to be, especially young women in leadership positions. So actually, no, this is very normal. I'm going to claim this is normal now. I decided I wanted to be an artistic director when I was about nine or 10, which is...
00:24:27
Speaker
uncommon. We'll say that. It wasn't very common, especially looking at how few women artistic directors or have been historically. For me, it actually came primarily from Chico Amada, who I got to know over time, you know, and now is my associate artistic director. I learned a lot from her. And also as a kid, my first Nutcracker experiences were with Ballet, Arizona, actually. Before I came to the school of Ballet Tucson, I had done Ballet Arizona Nutcracker and I was really fortunate. and My mom started volunteering for Ballet Arizona, so they used to tour down to Tucson. They don't anymore, which is why we now have Ballet Tucson, the company, and we're a robust company here. Back in the day, they came very regularly. And my mom was a volunteer and being a single mom, she's volunteering. She loves dance, she loves the arts, but I was just kind of like always there like and just keep yourself busy, not disruptively. Do not disrupt anything that's happening respectfully. I was very polite kid.
00:25:18
Speaker
But I was just always around dance and dancers and the company dancers that were there were just so kind and so nurturing to me. But additionally, the artistic director, Michael Utoff was, and he's in St. Louis, I believe now, but he had such a big impact on me as a young kid. He really like kind of talked to me like I was just a young adult and would ask me how my day was very professionally, but also too, I realized now as an adult how much he encouraged me to be around backstage. you know, sit here and watch, you know, where you've been taking ballet, right? He would have me take company class on the side. I was like seven years old. He's like, you know, your bar. Now you're doing bar work, right? yeah you Hold this chair and you take the bar.
00:25:55
Speaker
Like, okay. But what i even as a kid recognized in him and his position, and I think he wielded his position so beautifully was ballet Arizona had a really, really interesting rep, very rewarding for the audience, very rewarding for the dancers. So I started to realize that he was the one that was the curator of that. Wow, what a cool job to be able to like be an artistic curator of a ballet company. That's amazing. And then additionally, just seeing the group that he nurtured, you know, again, very professional. The dancers were fantastic, like high level performers. But I could see in him that there was a sense of community that he really actively worked to create.
00:26:33
Speaker
And you could tell that all these people had come together because he had picked them to do so and then create an atmosphere that kept them bonded together positively. i always hesitate a take to say family, it's a workplace, but community. He had created this community of really wonderful people that all seem to actually, sure they got on each other nerve nerves and, you know, here and there, like I was a kid, I didn't see any of that. It happens. But i think overall, I saw them just be very kind and respectful, not just to me, but to each other all the time. I was always in an environment um that did not feel remotely toxic being backstage Valley, Arizona under Michael Utoff. And that really stuck with me. And for some reason, just very early on, locked on to that concept of the artistic director is someone that one gets to pick amazing art to do and two gets to create this community of artists that is like amazing and this great team. i somehow just saw that as a kid. And it's like, that's an artistic director and I want to do that. I then learned that the artistic directorship can mean a lot different things. I learned as an adult and as a teenager that that's not always exactly the case. But I'm so grateful that I saw that modeled as a kid when I made that career decision. i was like, I want to be the person that leads that. For me, then discovering as a teenager and then as as an adult, how different the dance world, I remain hopeful that that's changing more now. There's been a lot of changes in leadership nationally, internationally. I am going to choose to be optimistic that different decisions are being made around
00:27:58
Speaker
what an artistic director is and does and should be capable of. But I think that last part capable of is something i really stuck with me in what I witnessed. So I started as a young adult in knowing I wanted to be an artistic director. I went through where was like, do I really want to do that anymore? Is that still what I feel passionate about? Because I feel kind of disenchanted, I guess, with a lot of the culture of the ballet world. Like, do I actually want to be an artistic director? Like, do I have it in me to... rewrite what this means to do. i don't know. And I went back and forth and I kept coming it back to it's like, no, I think I do.
00:28:32
Speaker
I think what I've decided is I do want to be a part of positive change. And then I think for me identifying, like, even if that's just within one company, maybe I need to accept my own humanity or my, you know, the fact that I am only human and maybe it just starts with one company.
00:28:45
Speaker
And maybe that's okay. When I started to realize seeing directorship that stays or goes, what I keep realizing is that what tends to happen, if I'm getting this right, is that a dancer is a famous dancer.
00:29:01
Speaker
and then is given a company to run. And that kind of mostly feels like it, like maybe they had some side projects a little bit, but what seems to happen most of the time, at least a you know little while ago, was you're really, really famous and it seems like, okay, well, we have this position opening up and we want our company to be on the map. And so therefore, if we have this star dancer, this person was really famous, become the head of this organization. a lot of eyes are going on this company. And it's like, yes, but then what? After the press release wave is done, then what? I also worked on side projects, things that I was really passionate about, like film projects and podcasts and things like that. And I have always had friends that didn't dance. So I was seeing other friends of mine in their various industries, like what it takes to succeed or not succeed. And then I ended up having a mentor. I love women in business stuff. like I think women supporting women in business is really wonderful. So I actually weirdly started going to, she would hold big conferences, like week-long conferences. And it was all like women in tech stuff. And I was like, hello, I'm a ballet dancer. I'm going to come to all of these women in tech education things because So much of it was about leadership and entrepreneurship. And so what I decided is like, okay, if I am going to do this, just as I take my education and what I pour into being a dancer seriously, i think artistic directors should hold themselves highly accountable in so many ways to the position. You know, you wield so much power, so much influence on so many levels. I believe that more artistic directors 100% should be seeking additional education for themselves. So When I was about 22, I started on site and I did this every single year, very seriously, you know attending conferences like this. I did marketing training programs. Very fortunately, we had a program on site that could help us get FD&B money for school. But even still, it's like still that money was not near enough to like a roll of school. And I, from my background, just could not afford to go like the full college route. But also I wanted to move quicker through things. So I started doing certificate program. So I started doing leadership training and management training and LR executive education, nonprofit and leadership management certificate. Given what I have to do on a daily basis, and even if I had a larger team, we don't have a large team. So I have to do a lot of the work myself, not because I don't have an awesome team, but just we all wear many hats. I can't imagine taking on what I take on or feeling deserving of taking on of what I take on without having additional education in a variety of things that all apply to this work. It honestly confuses me. like We didn't become professional ballet dancers without having had a fairly serious dance education. I view leadership and business and management the same way. you know I have a whole bookshelf outside the store of leadership books and radical candor and all the Brene Brown books and all these things.
00:31:43
Speaker
I'm listening to podcasts constantly. I just kind started when I was 22 because I knew by the time I stepped into that role, I wanted to feel like I deserved to step in that role. And I think that's for me, just like a personal accountability thing. Like apparently people view that differently, but I would not have felt right in taking a position as an artistic director without having done all of that other work and all that education and having a network of people in my life beyond dance that taught me about professionalism and business and management of people. I started that functional process behind the scenes while I was still dancing professionally. Fundraising, donor relations, nonprofit sector versus for-profit sector.
00:32:24
Speaker
Very different things, very different functionality, very different legality around how you have to do business. Some artistic directors, I guess it works because they have these big mega teams. They handle a lot of things you could delegate.
00:32:34
Speaker
However, I like to think that even if I was In one of those situations where I did have this massive team, not in a micromanaging way, like not that I would be intimately acquainted with every single thing happening in day-to-day business as soon as possible. I would like to think that I would know what my team is dealing with, to have appreciation and an understanding around that. So it didn't feel like a jarring transition for me for a few reasons. One being that I had been teaching for a long time. i had been choreographing for a long time. One of the last pieces of choreography I did at P&B before I retired and left, I was commissioned to choreograph a piece for the school show at the end of the year for the professional division students. And so I had this half an hour piece to make with two casts of 29 dancers, all of whom were young professionals. You know, they were all right at that precipice of taking the next step into true professional life. So that was my moment, you know, of having several months on and off, depending on their rehearsal, my rehearsal schedule, time in the studio at the front of the room with them to really lead and steer this group of young professionals through this dance work. So I was at the front of the room with them in that way, in addition to other times with them. And then also I was directing and producing a documentary film at the time. So I was very actively taking on that director role in that project. But the transition to Ballet Tucson kind of happened through osmosis, which is the pandemic. So basically what had happened was I had known that I wanted to leave PNB. I wasn't happy anymore for variety of reasons. And I've always been very strict with myself professionally around retirement in general, but also too around workplace environment. I've had a lot of experiences, not just at PNB, but other dancers I knew in other companies where I've seen people stay, let's say, too long, not always in the way of like, oh, you just can't dance so strong anymore. A lot of it having to do with your emotional and mental state. It's hard out there and there's not a ton of jobs, but I always had the mindset of like seeing how some people stayed in an environment that was not supporting them, how they needed to be supported and what that did to them as people like it changed them.
00:34:34
Speaker
And I've always wanted to have a very strong sense of self. I don't want my environment to influence who I am as a person in that way. And if I'm ever unhappy here, and if I ever feel myself start to shift my worldview in a way because of how anxious I feel or and unhappy I feel, I need to get out of that environment because that is not the person I want to be. And that's not what I want to let any place do to me. And so I had seen that happen in some colleagues, again, all around the country of like, I've known you for years. It's not who you are anymore. Like you're not a husk, but like you're a shade of your former self because of just how unhappy you are. And some of that is, you know, we have to make positive changes in our own lives as well. Spend more time with friends, find something else you love on the side. That's also a strategy. But also too, there is like,
00:35:19
Speaker
maybe this place is at its time with you. Maybe this has served its purpose and now you need to explore something else and whether that's another company. So like I'd actually been doing auditions for other companies, got offered a contract I almost took with the company, but I'd gotten to this place. I'd already had a major hip surgery and i was like, you know, where I'm at is What I love in my performing life now is not only performing, but also if I am going to be on stage, having my husband there and having my friends come to the shows, having that shared experience with a community of people that I care about. It's not just about me being on stage. At least it wasn't for me at that place. got into place where it's like, if I was going to do this, I'd be so sad. Long distance, my husband had a job in Seattle. i was going to be moving away.
00:35:56
Speaker
It's like, do I really want to do that anymore? and be separated from him the whole time. I wasn't feeling strongly enough about being in a company again. And I think also too, because I'd always been kind of an anxious dancer to begin with. It's like, do I really want to rebuild who I am within a ballet company again and all the judgment that that might entail? Oh, the new dancer coming in as a principal. Like, oh God, I'm not the kind of person be like, I'm here. i have arrived. i'd be like, oh, everyone's judging me. So I i didn't think of that. But I was like, do I want to go through that? and How anxious it's going to make me to be this person that stepped in with a principal contract? I don't know where, like probably not. That's at least just not who I am personally. I would feel too nervous about that. So what I decided to do is like, okay, I'm going to leave p andb And what I have been able to do is I can still find dance work. I can do gigs. I can be guest artist.
00:36:40
Speaker
And because I choreograph and I teach and I already have some gigs on the side, I'll go into a freelance career and I'll do some dancing because I still want to dance, but I'll do choreography and teaching and Plus I have these other side projects I'm already working on. So like all of that will come together. I'll just be a freelancer. My husband and I are now planning on having kids and I have the freedom of time to do that. And it still allows me to have a home base with them. That'll be the life thing. Then what happened was the pandemic hit and the entire world shut down. Everything disappeared. So it's like, okay, well, we'll see how long this lasts and the months dragged on and was like, okay, all of my gigs have been canceled. I have no other work. What also happened at that time pretty immediately was i had always really loved Valley Tucson and especially Chaco and I have always been very close and when I was recovering from my hip surgery, I actually went back to Tucson for three months to be rebuilt by Chico. Went back into the basics ballet and she helped me with my recovery. Wendy Wellen had actually given me that advice. She's like, you know, you're going to feel really self-conscious for a while after this surgery. It's so hard.
00:37:37
Speaker
It's such a hard recovery. And she's like, if you feel uncomfortable, like taking company class, she's like, I did. I had to go away from the New York City Ballet building and do a recovery for this surgery that was like separate. away from prying eyes, basically. So I decided to go back to Tucson. And I've been a guest teacher during the summer workshop for many years. And I always like to come back to visit. And that's where I met you back in the day, originally. i always loved visiting home. And I always loved the dancers that were in the company. And what I knew of Ballet Tucson based on the prior directorship was that Ballet Tucson was not very out in the world. It wasn't a very like arms open place, but it also wasn't very good at exposing itself. Social media was really really small. There was kind of an e-newsletter, barely. And seeing all these companies, including PMB, instantly just pivot online. Like, okay, we now have this digital season. I was like, Ballet Tucson is so not going to do that. And this ballet company is not going to survive. And I actually really love this organization. I'd like to see it survive. I'd like for a great dance to exist in the community I grew up in. I'd like for kids to continue to have the kind of access that I had so that kids that can't afford to go away early will still have a home base that is strong. Like I don't want that to be gone. And so i formulated a young patrons group of former students and former company dancers that we all just started meeting virtually and started doing all this digital work. And the former director was dealing with an angle surgery at the time. And she kind of just threw her hands up. She's like, I can't deal with this. I don't want to deal with this. I'm gone. I've got my own stuff to work with. So she kind of just took her hands off the wheel and I was like, all right, I guess I'm kind of as a volunteer. working remotely from Seattle, grabbing this wheel to keep this company going. And so I worked with Chaco. Chaco was doing pop-up performances around the community to try to get dance still out there and you know free outside stuff that people could still go to. So she was arranging all that. My title became with the board, Artistic Associate and Media Director as a volunteer. was on page. just as a working volunteer. So I started contacting press, making them the aware of the pop-up performances. I took over the social media accounts. I started the newsletter. And then we got a match from someone that was affiliated with our board for a matching gift to do a digital fundraiser, worked with everybody in the organization as far as our young patrons group put together this big digital fundraiser that went out and actually ended up raising enough money thanks to the match.
00:39:50
Speaker
to have hope of having a season again. Chaco was the boots on the ground and still holding classes as was safe. So we just kind of cobbled together between she and I, and I give a lot of credit to Nancy Cosby, who was our treasurer and one of the founders of the company who hass since passed away. And Justin Carroll, who was very kind dad and had stepped into the thing. He's like, I guess I'll kind of be company manager. I call Justin the world's greatest volunteer. He still does like anything and everything he can do. He's still involved. So it was like just this, I don't know, ragtag team that like,
00:40:18
Speaker
just didn't want to see it end. And so we worked together and I actually, as a volunteer, started getting called to like board meetings and stuff. So I was like virtually in board meetings. I was like, hello, I used to dance here, kind of like, I'm just <unk> trying to make this work. And so when we had raised enough money to get the company on stage again. And when theater started reopening, the artistic director said, I've been doing this for a long time. I'm tired. i don't really want to do it anymore. How about you come out and you'll be associate artistic director for half a year, and then we'll transition you into being artistic director. It's funny because I had actually approached her a few years earlier about, I do want to put out there like one day, i think I would want to be considered to be artistic director for Valley Tucson. And she actually was like, she had her eye on somebody else, a gentleman that had been dancing with the company. And I like,
00:41:03
Speaker
okay, nevermind. But that relationship with her and him didn't work out. And then she's like, yeah, I'm ready to be done. So like, you're here, you're already doing this stuff. We'll make that be a thing. now I was like, okay, so I moved to Tucson. And it was interesting. It was really like trial by fire of she continued primarily like she had a laundry list of things that she wanted me to do. But I actually didn't really get mentorship from her. I just became the executor of things. So I came here and I was immediately responsible for booking theaters, book crew, doing contracts, arranging all the ads for shows, building the playbill, building the ads with a graphic designer, all of this stuff. She's like, okay, do it. I just started doing it. And in a way, like it was exhausting. was really exhausting, I would say first seven months of working professionally. But at the same time, again, I was up for a challenge. I knew I wanted to do it. I got to work with these dancers that were great. A lot of dancers didn't end up returning that year. I understand they didn't want to come back after the pandemic. We ended up with some vacancies in the company and so we ended up hiring some dancers I still get to work with now that year who became like just such early parts of what I view as like our valley Tucson community as it is now really helped redefine the culture. So I kind of just dove in but I am again really
00:42:08
Speaker
very grateful that I spent the years that I did doing some preparatory work and also being used to being busy and juggling a lot. I would never have survived that first few months had I not been used to, i remember just even that last year I was in the company, I was you i was dancing full time. was choreographing that piece for the two casts of 29 dancers. i was premiering a documentary film. I was hosting my podcast. I was a member of the press for International Film Festival. I was like used to doing all these things simultaneously. So I've always had like a bit of a workaholic in me, I would say. Thank goodness, because I would have collapsed, I will be very honest and with an effort. But the transition happened, eventually she stepped away. We finally got to place where it's like, oh, I actually get to own this now. And it took a while to get in the swing of that. When she had told me, she's like, you know I feel like I'm done. i kind of took that as I think the universe is just maybe telling me to take this next step because I've already fought my way back to the stage from a couple of major injuries, especially this hip surgery. It was so exhausting. i always had in my mind that a dance career ends, but also too, I had some teachers and mentors at the PNB school that I know had super promising careers. One in particular was a star on the rise in the company. And then she ended up having a career ending injury when she was 22. It was like the whole world was ahead of her as a performer and then it just abruptly ended. Amazing teacher, really wonderful person. like She did the work that she needed to do to move on from that and not bring that into the studio with her. But I think I always carried her and a couple others with me in my mind of like, it could have been that. How lucky am I? and another mentor that told me, like you're always going to want to dance longer. All of us wish we could dance forever, but we can't. And knowing how lucky it was to have had 14 years professionally that I could have so easily not had.
00:43:48
Speaker
like I could have just not made it at all. I could have had the career-ending injury. Any number of things could have kept me from having 14 years that I had. And I always have loved helping other dancers. I love coaching. i love passing the baton. And so, you know, it's been months now. All this freelance stuff I was going to do dried up anyway. I've not danced for months. And I've already been down this road of like, okay, here we go. Rebuild yourself from the ground up again. Like, I think might be done done with that. And it was such a weird realization to come to because' like all I ever wanted to do with dance. And it's like,
00:44:19
Speaker
That doesn't mean I didn't want to dance anymore. I still love it so dearly. I mean, you know, that little kid, the dream of being ballerina is always within you. That part, I guess, is hard, but I kept just trying to remember how lucky I was. so Like, you also care about all these other things and you also had the time that you had. So now it's okay to pass that on to somebody else. And so when that opportunity was like, okay, I think this is just maybe what needs to happen. This position is now going to be open. i had that time.
00:44:44
Speaker
I think I need to like leave that there and just take that next step into something new because it's also something I wanted to do. How fortunate that the stars aligned in that way. So that's how my transition happened. It's just very strange. Wow. Yeah. And I think it's so much like right place, right time, but also all these things you did for so many years before you see this overnight success almost. This just happens. Yeah.
00:45:05
Speaker
But if you hadn't been doing all of those things, you like you said, you wouldn't have been prepared for the moment when it came. So I think that's a great lesson for dancers. If you have a dream, just start doing the things on your own because you're the only one who can prepare yourself for that. And then when the opportunity comes, you don't just get lucky, you've prepared. Yeah, a friend of mine literally just asked me this question on Sunday, who is not involved with dance. He's the of the Tucson Pops Orchestra and also the Tucson Jazz Festival. Wonderful, wonderful man. We've become friends. he He's become a great mentor to me. And we just were getting together to one kind of brainstorm some ideas of how to collaborate. But additionally, just as friends. He's such a passionate artist. And he just always has like such good questions. Like, I just want to know. We ended up talking about retirement.
00:45:43
Speaker
And he's like, how are you okay with retiring? He's like, you know, I've been thinking about more and more now that I've gotten to know you and the company better and the dancers better. He's like, you know, i think about that all the time. Like, there's a really big shelf life to your art form, isn't there? i was like, yeah, there is. He's like, that's unique, right? Like when I think about in the scope of what I do with music, obviously, you know, your age plays a role somewhat physically at a certain point, but you can do it for so much longer. And you're working with Arizona theater company now. And I know actors too, like same thing, you know, not always not guaranteed, but you have an option theoretically to do that much longer. And he's like, what is that like? What is it like to know that it's such a short career and to do it
00:46:22
Speaker
okay What is retirement like? It's like, that's such a good question, Chris. But I told him, I'm probably gonna sound like a really harsh person, but I was really, really strict with myself. I'm a very reflective person. I think about all these people that have not even just been like very intimately in my life, but just things I feel lucky to have witnessed that shaped my worldview. And for me, it was when I first joined PNB for like the first, say two, three years, I was fortunate to come into PNB at a time where there was still like an old guard, like the Kent Francia era principals. And wow, what a company. The heyday of PNB as far as like level of dancers, oh my goodness. Just internationally exceptional artists, utterly extraordinary people. So i actually was coming in at a time when some of them were still there.
00:47:08
Speaker
So I got to like, one, just witness, witness the greatness. And like, you know, as a summer nurse kid, had the pictures cut out from the brochure on my wall. Like those those people I got to be alongside. But then I realized, and I will not say who, two dancers, I got to witness something negative but positive for me, which was, i got to witness what it was like for a dancer who had utterly poured everything into a dance career and was utterly consumed by it.
00:47:35
Speaker
And then realized that that was going to end and had no idea what to do. I witnessed kind of like a midlife crisis of like, who am i without this you know other part of myself? There was that. And it was at the time alarming, but also very positive for me to see that it can happen to adults. Life is hard and I have so much empathy for these people. you know I know what it is to pour your heart and into something and have it then change and be taken away from you. But what I witnessed that became a cautionary tale for me was these adults that I had admired so much and just revered and looked up to kind of entering almost like a childlike state, like they were becoming children again, and they were lost.
00:48:10
Speaker
And then it started to show up with them, you could just see a change in them as people of like becoming clearly more tense, I hesitate to say hostile, but just like agitated. But you could tell it was coming from a place of fear, that feeling of really being lost and not knowing what to do. the fear of stepping away of like, but I'm this.
00:48:28
Speaker
And without that, who what do I do? And does anybody kind of care about me and anymore? And I think something I realized year after year was retirements happen every year. And there's all these answers that you're like, oh, so-and-so will never be forgotten. And then two years later, the kids are like, who?
00:48:41
Speaker
Like, oh. Ugh, my heart. And you're like, you're in the school of this company. How do you not know who that was? You know that poster over there? That's them. Like, they were incredible. That's kind of like the normal life cycle of ballet anyway is what I've discovered, but also to just seeing them feel so lost. I kind of made a pact with myself right then and there. i was like, I don't want to be that person. And I want to be a person that it's like, God, this is everything to me. And I could not love anything more. It's what I wanted to do my entire life. But I have to accept that this will end.
00:49:14
Speaker
Whether I like it or not, at some point, this will end. And I have to know that. And I have to remember that. And it's not to say that it's not going to be painful and I'm not going to mourn it as a loss because it is.
00:49:26
Speaker
But I have to just remember all these things, all these roadblocks can pop up at any time and cut that experience short. Making an agreement with myself to remain very aware of that.
00:49:37
Speaker
And not to feel great about it, but to make peace that that is just the reality of the situation. I really thank them for that because again, being 19 and 20 watching that, it was really something I did not expect to see. And I think you know we see the glamour of the retirements online and stuff now. you know There wasn't like social media in the same way, but still like you know there was so-and-so takes their final bow and it all just looks so like ah gracious and happy. and like But you know it's hard. It's so hard. you know All these answers, you know every single one of us has to walk away from the thing that we love most in the world. It's a very sad experience, but I've always been a Grace Kelly fan. It's just like bring kindness and calm and grace into everything that you do has always been a goal of mine. And that's how I wanted to handle whatever that transition ended up being.
00:50:25
Speaker
Whenever it happened, I wanted to know that gratitude, grace, and kindness, I hope will be the prevailing part of that for me as far as like my identity through it. This has a timeline. Yeah. I don't know what the timeline is exactly, but I know there will be a timeline. It's really cool. We're in a dance culture now where there's so many more possibilities than there were. When I first started my career about what a career in dance can be at all. Maybe you've stepped away from that ah professional ballet time, but now there's like this choreographic project that you can be a part of. There's all these side entities that were not in existence. And so really was like, you're in the company, you're not in the company, you're in the Broadway show, you're not in the Broadway show. like So now there is like a much broader world. And I always try to remind dancers of that, like as they're maybe thinking of retirement, or we're talking about potential retirement, but just to put it out there, like it doesn't necessarily have to be
00:51:11
Speaker
the end of your dance experience like for me it was the end of my dance experience but i was okay with that the passing the baton thing was something i cared about it's interesting we are actually now in a time too which is cool that dancers maybe can take an additional step that didn't exist before but it's still as chris pointed out not a not a terribly long career compared to some other opera or or music or theater per se yeah definitely dancers who accept that that's the reality do a lot better even if it's a hard transition Does the mere thought of audition season make your palms start to sweat?
00:51:43
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:52:48
Speaker
So I'm curious, looking forward into the future, what is your vision for Ballet Tucson? My vision for Ballet Tucson is not a lofty vision. i guess because I've had to be in my life, I try to be a little bit, I guess, emotionally cautious in some ways. Like I try to be grounded in reality and that it takes a lot of steps to get to the big dream kind of thing. So I think just seeing the day-to-day-to-day-to-day hustle and work behind everything, my dreams tend to be a little bit smaller, but I've actually feel like that's Kind of a good thing in some ways.
00:53:19
Speaker
Big in the integrity and the love of it all, but small in the day-to-day work, knowing that when I was a dancer at PNB, I always had friends and I still do, which is learned so much as well about ballet companies in other departments. I wasn't a dancer that like just knew the artistic people. Like I knew people in the costume shop and people in development people in marketing and the stage crew, the box office people, the education people, not just teachers in the school, but the actual like outreach education teachers. All of those people were my network of my colleagues. I considered them. I really appreciated all of the work. that they did to make P&B what it was. People see the glamour of the big shows and it takes so many people doing so many different jobs, working so many hours, a lot of them not for enough pay, in my opinion. You know, just people pour a lot into making it organization like that successful, not just the artistic side of it. I still ask so many questions of the person who does HR at B&B, and she was so kind to me. have and continue to learn so much from her and people in accounting. There's all these moving parts to these organizations and all these value companies that have these kinds of people like I know do their jobs. They are so lucky.
00:54:25
Speaker
They're so lucky to have all these contributors. So anyway, for me, it's like the dream for Valley Tucson is kind of in my own mind built off of the early days of PNB in the sense of, because I knew know these people and the history of PNB. When I came from Valley Tucson to PNB, I was utterly awestruck. this huge building and oh my God, they're all, look at this beautiful costume shop and there's all these people making, oh my God, this tiara is stunning. Like just all this like utter reverence for all this work because I had grown up seeing, you know, all the grandmas and the moms in the lobby, like sewing these costumes, which is also wow. Like there's wow for all of it. All of that work, again, the daily hustle that I saw, there's like 10 people that did literally everything, even less than 10 people sometimes. There's departments for that. I went in with a lot of reverence and got to know people. And then because I got to know people, I started learning from the people that have been there longer what the early days were like. She's retired now, but one of the old heads of the marketing department, I learned from her. She's like, you know, I actually started as a volunteer.
00:55:25
Speaker
I started my work not doing marketing for PNB. I started my work helping with costumes. I was just like a volunteer seamstress and I was a school nurse. My kid was in the school and so i was just there a lot. While she was in classes, I just asked what I could do to help and was sewing costumes and then started taking on other roles and Ken and Francia just had such a good way of building a community of people and Francia especially still like a mine like an iron trap. It's wild. but She will meet you once 15 years ago and still remember your name. It's incredible. But she's always been that person. She always saw every person.
00:55:56
Speaker
in the building. She saw every person doing every volunteer position, doing everyone. And she was really good at like, okay, well, do you want to do this now? And like, this creating this team. And so I started to realize it's like this mega company that I was looking at you know, all the bells and whistles building was built the same way Ballet Tucson was.
00:56:11
Speaker
What was really extraordinary, you know, it's like obviously very different city, like greater financial capacity, especially with corporate support and everything, having things like Boeing and Alaska and Starbucks and Microsoft. Obviously, that changes things when you're able to access that kind of funding. So very different city than Tucson. But what I saw was like the origin story was technically the same. I've carried that with me. When we had the 50th anniversary P&B, it would have been maybe my second year.
00:56:36
Speaker
as director. There was like a big alumni thing and I was like, I want to go up to Seattle for that. That'd be fun. Midsummer Night Dream is one of my favorite things. So I just went up for like a long weekend and wanted to see people I danced with and everything and celebrate the company as I knew it. And so much respect for what kind of brands they have built so quickly. We're coming up on what is our foundation's 40th anniversary next season, actually. And it's like very different and scale. And again there's a lot of reasons behind that on many fronts, but it's incredible to see what they were able to build so quickly before they even passed that off to Peter. And so I reached out to Ken Francie and i was like, can I get together with you while I'm in town? Like, I just, I want to pick your brains about some things. And they were so sweet and they had me over to their home for like three or four hours, one afternoon for coffee. And I was like, I just want to ask you, so like I see what you built.
00:57:20
Speaker
I see what P&B is now. and I also like, I do understand the difference. I do understand how the city itself differently sustains arts here versus where I'm based. However, i would really like to know about the first five years. Tell me about the first five years of you doing this and building this company. Things that stood out to you on the negative end of things that you tried and failed, but also like what worked? What were the things that were most effective?
00:57:44
Speaker
And I've carried a lot of that into the work that we're doing with Ballet Tucson, especially on the front of bringing people into the studio. It's not something we did very regularly as an organization before. my colleague Lisa, who is new to us, we finally have a development person. It's very exciting for us. It's a very exciting step to take as a small nonprofit. Lisa herself actually also used to dance and loves ballet, and she danced both as a student and professionally. So she not only is a development professional, but also brings her own personal love dance, which is a fantastic fit for us. but I told her when she came in, it was like, you know, as far as cultivation goes, I realized that we are still heavily in a relationship building phase and we're going to be there for a while.
00:58:17
Speaker
We have had a very different identity as an organization in the city. And there's a lot of new relationships to be built and there's a lot of relationships to change. So just be aware, I have an open door policy. Like if there's people that you want to have come in and watch rehearsal or class, bring them in. We love this. We love sharing it. It doesn't have to be perfect all the time. And What I learned from Francie in particular, is she said, hands down, just having people in to see the process was life changing for them around what they understood about ballet. Just being in the studio, we you know watching the work, watching the sweat, hearing the notes of like the amount of detail, because you just see the end product and they're like, did they think about all that?
00:58:52
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, they just learned that choreography yesterday. Are you serious? Yeah. Getting people into the process has been really effective for us. But anyway, all of that to say, you know, my dream for Ballet Tucson is not lofty yet. I still feel like we are kind of in our own origin story phase and the world is you a changing a lot. It's very complex right now around arts funding and arts stability. And part of me just wants to be for all of our emotional support a little bit conservative in my dream of, because I just want to make sure that, especially from the pandemic, I've seen and heard horror stories about so many ballet companies that had artistic directors alike. We're going full bore and all these different things. And then it was not sustainable and it literally ceased to exist.
00:59:34
Speaker
And so for me, it's like the balance of ambition with actual reality. Ambition and reality have to meet. We are too small. We don't have huge safety nets. So like every decision I make to move the organization forward has to have a lot of thought behind it all the programming, all the rep, everything has to be held really carefully, not in a fearful way, but just because I've seen that happen over and
Company Culture and Communication
00:59:56
Speaker
over again. i don't want us to fizzle out because we didn't play our cards, right? To me, it's a little tricky because it's like we're in that place still as an organization.
01:00:06
Speaker
However, the bigger dream for me is just around really the dancers and the company itself. I do genuinely dream of this little oasis. in Tucson of positive culture and integrity. And that is something I feel like, particularly this year, i was like, wow, this is a first season fully. I feel like we've really hit our as stride. And I look around the room and I'm like these there are our people.
01:00:30
Speaker
We're really intentional with our hiring process and what it takes to stay in the company. And so much of that is we have a super talented group of dancers. And that is without question. Like the talent is not up for' for question, in my opinion. All of them are capable, fantastic artists that love what they do. What we are looking for is the human beings that are actually a part of this team because especially in knowing that we do want to continue to grow this organization, like it so takes all of us.
01:00:57
Speaker
And we all have to do the work together and we all have to trust each other and we all have to believe in the organization in a genuine way to do the kind of work that we need to do to both survive and grow. I view the dancers as a really active part of that. And so many of them are teachers in the school now too. So it's like some of them really hold a lot of weight and power within the organization in their influence. They're influencing our audience on stage. and off the stage in our things that we do to invite our community in now and go out into the community. i really view them as ambassadors for us and then also impacting our kids. you know And as a former student myself, I take that really seriously, who I have speaking and influencing the young minds of the people in the school. The dream is on that front is kind of happening. like I have dancers that are capable of dancing, extraordinary rep. I do everything in my power to call in all the favors. I feel so lucky to have...
01:01:48
Speaker
the friends that I've had. I think gratitude pays off. And I remember always talking to some of first kids when I was a guest teacher about this, when I was doing things like press stuff and getting invited to events and all this stuff. I was like, I want you want to be very clear. That's not because I'm PNB star dancer.
01:02:01
Speaker
There's so many great dancers in this company. It's not because I'm like the best dancer at PNB. What I am is someone that really appreciates every opportunity that I'm given and shows that. Also appreciates those opportunities in the sense that I always show up fully and I follow through. So why are people reaching out to me be like do you want to be a press member for this film festival? Not because I'm a journalist. It's because they met me at this thing and they got to know they could always count on me and things like that. So i' realized that I've been lucky that that's followed me to this new phase of career where now through my wonderful friends have them giving us these free fantastic ballets that for our scale budget-wise, we have no business doing, but they're trusting us with these works and making it feasible for us to perform them. And same thing on the costume front. I cannot thank the P&B Costume Shoppe enough. They have been so supportive of me as a director, you know not only just giving me affordable rates for
01:02:53
Speaker
beautiful costumes that they built. Like that costume shop is fantastic. So I have these like extraordinary costumes on our stage where people are like, the ballet tunes and performances look amazing. those These are from like a major American ballet company. But also too, even trust me, like I've been transporting costumes to and from PNB primarily like in my suitcase. I will go visit Cory for Thanksgiving and be like, load up with rubies from balance sheet, just even to avoid shipping costs. Like all these people that are taking all these steps to make it feasible for us to do this stuff. So the rep, I have a dream of us continuing to really bring, and for me, a lot of it is as a low-income kid, access to world-class ballet is a genuine goal of mine. And it doesn't mean that we're necessarily, you know, we're not going to double our budget in a year or something. We're in a position, luckily, thanks to all these generous people to do these great works. And that's important to me because having been a kid that only got to see great performances because they came to my backyard, because I could not afford to go anywhere else to see them. And I wasn't an age of like social media. And some kids still access-wise aren't. Social media might be out there. Not every kid can afford to have an iPhone. Having that exists, world-class art in every community. And a huge shout out to Justin Peck for his belief in that as well. Like great dance belongs everywhere as long as there's artists capable of delivering it
01:04:03
Speaker
That is a big part of who we are and the the dream that I want to continue for the sake of our community, but also for sake of the dancers, because I also know what it's like as a dancer. if You do want to dance great works. That's the rewarding part of physically, emotionally, artistically experiencing great choreography, having some bucket list ballets checked off of like, oh I always dreamed of doing rubies last year was a big thing. Cause I remember meeting with the dancers when I first took over and they asked about like what rep I wanted to bring in. And I ended up flipping it on them. was like, well, what? things you potentially want to do. And Rubies came out of several of their mouths. And so like to finally get that on stage, was like, ah, I still remember the people in that meeting that said that. And for them to get that chance to do that ballet, like that means a lot to you as a dancer. We also have a no monsters policy. I do not invite choreographers and streeters into the building that I know to be monsters. There's plenty of good ballets out there. So we don't need to have that be a thing to get good ballet. There's plenty of options in the world. I will say the biggest dream for me is definitely the culture. It feels really good to feel like we've gotten in there. And it's really a matter of like maintaining it now I feel very strongly that a lot of conscious decisions need to be made to not further perpetuate the trauma of this field. And you can do that. And I also believe, which I think is maybe the caveat to how we approach our work here. I also believe that then you don't need to sacrifice quality and integrity of the craft.
01:05:18
Speaker
I believe both are possible. And so we work really, really hard to make both those things possible. I always tell the dancers too, I believe in the Brene Brown thing of clear is kind. I saw so many dancers go through so much mentally out of not knowing where they stood and then almost like finding out too late that something wasn't necessarily going well or it's like, well, now it's just over, you're done. And it's like, well, I thought I didn't realize anything was even wrong, like all those things. so I always tell them that, you know, we will communicate with you transparently and we ask that you communicate with us transparently and, you know, know that you can always talk to us and you can always ask questions and we are always here. We want to know as much about each and every one of you as humanly possible, really, within what feels appropriate and professional. But you know, too, that if you come to us, like, I want this role or I want this, the answer isn't guaranteed to always be a happy one. But do trust that we will always have a reason.
01:06:13
Speaker
And I think that's the thing, especially for a company of our size, we do five shows in the Nutcracker. Everybody wants to be the Sugar Plum Fairy. There are five shows. We all know everyone in this company has big dreams and that we can't perfectly satisfy every dream all the time.
01:06:26
Speaker
or even most of the time, because dancers grow through their careers, like so much shifts. But what we promise is that we've always really, really thought out every decision we're making around casting, around promotions, and that we will have answers for you. So if you feel like you need to understand something better, why decision was made, it is my responsibility to have an actual answer for you, even if it's not an answer you like. I think that's built a lot of trust. And it's hard to have conversations when you know you're going to disappoint someone. Like it doesn't feel good to be the bad guy. But again, i know a lot of artistic directors kind of it's like they take it once you're like the harsh person or you're the person that runs away from the hard food back and you're so nice until you're not.
01:07:01
Speaker
Both of those I don't think are good options. But the nice until you're not thing too, it's it's such a self-serving thing. Because does anybody want to be the bad guy? I'm sure most of the time, no. But did you also take on a position where you are wielding like essentially ultimate power over someone's career? Yes. So maybe you might have to feel uncomfortable sometimes.
01:07:23
Speaker
because you also then get to have utter power over someone's livelihood. We work really hard to hold ourselves very accountable and work-wise, i always say that we expect a lot, lot of hard work and a lot of dedication and a lot of professionalism and care for the craft. But what everyone can know is that we are also doing that work.
01:07:43
Speaker
We are really pouring ourselves into this organization. So it's like any level I hold any answer to is 100% the level I hold myself to. And I have a great team, all really, really hard workers that really, really care. So the dream for me more than anything, and again, even if it's just this one little company in this one little part of the United States, if we can at least just have that here, i will be very proud. And something I've realized we've ended up because of our hiring practices and how we've looked at people, we've ended up with this group that I remember like everyone's story when they came in of like, I was told I was too big or I was told like, and you know, I needed to have a breast, like crazy things. like I knew that existed when I was a dancer generation wise, but i've kind of felt like generationally maybe that was moving away more.
01:08:25
Speaker
Like all these like ridiculous, terrible things. And I just see this beautiful dancer that's doing such good work for us. But be I remember it's like, I was told this and I was told I would never make it here. And I was told I would, have like I've somehow attracted a lot of people that have had these like really,
01:08:38
Speaker
rough roads in ballet into this company and to see them look and feel joyful in what they do. And, you know, I get a lot of compliments from our audience of like how much the company has grown. And I think the company itself has always contained like yourself included a lot of really, really talented dancers. Talent has always been here. But I think what's changing now and the audience is actually noticing is like that the dancers feel really empowered and like in love with what they do. And that's shining through, that they don't feel afraid. That is radiating on stage. The amount of times I've been told the phrase by a dancer within our you know artistic staff dancer meetings, having a dancer schedule something and be like, I never felt comfortable sharing this anywhere else, but I really feel like I want to be honest about this here because I really appreciate the environment and like I want you to know the things that will help me based on what I'm going through. like
01:09:26
Speaker
I have had so many of those meetings. That's a dream for me, that dancers actually feel so comfortable to be that vulnerable about whatever it is happening in their lives, and they feel safe in sharing that. And actually, most of the time that those moments of sharing have happened, like we've then been able to have an even stronger relationship with that dancer and like, oh, now I understand that this is happening. So therefore, I need to work with you in this way. When I'm seeing this reaction, it's because of this thing is happening. taking out the barrier, but not in an unprofessional way. I don't like to say we're a family because I do find that a very typically very corporate manipulative phrase. I think employers use it oftentimes to create an unfounded sense of safety and closeness that then is manipulated for their gain. so I try not to say that, but what I will say is that we have a fantastic team.
01:10:11
Speaker
of people and that I really do believe that we're all believing in this together and that the trust is there. And I do expect that sometimes people are not gonna be happy with certain casting things or whatever, but again, that they always feel like we're at least really thinking about that stuff. Like it wasn't like an offhanded willy nilly move that we made.
01:10:27
Speaker
Well thought out and they know that we hold ourselves accountable to the integrity of what we're trying to do, that there really is accountability and integrity here. And I tell them too, constantly remind them All of you are around each other all the time.
01:10:41
Speaker
There is absolutely no expectation that all of you have to be best friends and hang out. All these things are great if it happens. It doesn't have to though. You're all adults. You're all adults and this your life. don't know, maybe you don't want to see anybody after dance and that doesn't mean like you're a bad person. As far as when you're in this building, when you're on our premises, when you're out in the world with us, on behalf of us, we are a kindness and respect forward organization and that extends to all of you with each other.
01:11:05
Speaker
Every person we interact with, even if it's the janitor refilling the paper towels in the dressing room, like every single person, including you to each other, make it possible for us to do what we do and what we love. And that's not guaranteed. And that's a really wonderful thing that we should be grateful for. So gratitude around that. And if you're ever not happy about a promotion, if you're ever not happy about casting, none of you did that to each other.
01:11:28
Speaker
We did that. If you're ever upset and you're ever angry, the anger should come to us. Chaco Brick, our rehearsal director, and I are like very aligned in how we view the dancers and the kind of opportunities that we provide. And we never make decisions without each other's buy-in. Like we make decisions as a team. So if you're ever upset about something, do not ever take it out for even a second on your colleague because they didn't do that.
01:11:51
Speaker
We did that. So we're the people to send that energy to. We're the people to talk to if you have a problem. No dancer within this company holds that kind of power over another. That does not exist. And I think that's kind of prevalent in other companies where that competitive nature thing, I think it's nurtured. A lot of directors s think it's going to make put everyone on their A game. That competitive edge is really going to make this company come alive. And all the dancers are going to be exceptional because they can't wait to elbow the other one out of the way. It's like, that's so gross to me, to be honest.
01:12:20
Speaker
And I think what I've seen is it's so possible for all these people to thrive next to each other. And then also to see the support that they're now giving each other. it's like when somebody has a premiere or something, it's like nothing but love in that room, which is so cool. Obviously, like I know there's always like if you want to depart, there's always like a pang of like, oh, I wish it were me. But I never see that taken out on another person. You know, you're allowed to feel that personally, but I don't see that coming back on each other, which is I'm really, really proud of. So that's my romantic bigger dream, Caitlin.
01:12:48
Speaker
I love that, Maggie. And so much of the culture you have built and everything, a lot of the questions I had for you today about leadership and that kind of thing, I really feel like you have answered because it's not just that you want to create this environment, because I think a lot of people say that and they say the right things, but how you are actually in practice doing it and sharing with us your leadership practices and the way you're building this culture is really impactful for dancers to hear and for other leaders to hear because we all want this, but how do you actually go about doing it where you do balance the excellence you want to see on stage and the culture you want to build?
01:13:25
Speaker
Thank you. yeah not a perfect person. like I've learned a lot in the last few years and staying grateful for all the people that teach you lessons in your life, good and bad, is so important. It's really hard when you're going through a bad moment with someone. and I've had some rough ones, especially a couple of years ago that will remain vague, but I have been taken advantage of. I've had my trust really violated. I've had people around me manipulated by people with really self-serving agendas, we'll call them. I've seen and experienced some things that were really, really hard and traumatic, but I really stay very committed to integrity. And I'm fortunate to have such a strong team, especially in Chaco and Brick and everybody, everybody in this building that's part of our staff. We work together well, and we also just care about each other a lot And we're really good at
01:14:10
Speaker
maintaining our moral compass and that it's like the Michelle Obama, like when they go low, we go high. We don't dignify speculation around things and gossip with a response. In the dance world, especially, I think, god you know, gossip is a thing. And I really try to stand by like, I know who I am.
01:14:27
Speaker
I know the decisions I've made and why. And I, at the end of the day, and the person that has to live with everything I do. That is how I operate. I work with the utmost integrity and I feel very confident about that. It's like I don't have to publicize anything ever on that front because doesn't matter. What matters is who you are and how you serve your community.
01:14:51
Speaker
And that is, i think what's called all of us together through any Rocky moments. I am very grateful to the people that really taught me. As you're building something, you get really excited about it and you try to keep all the optimism in the world. And it it is hard when that's disrupted by negativity of any kind, but it's also helpful because you then learn like, yeah, there are bumps along the road and one,
01:15:12
Speaker
I can survive this. But two, it really makes you double down on who you actually are and who you want to be and the kind of leader you actually really want to be. Are you going to let someone just because they might have a compromised way of acting influence how you behave? No. You learn from what happened.
01:15:29
Speaker
You carry it with you. You apply it so that you're a smarter, wiser, stronger, better person. And then you move on with your life because that's what you need to do for the betterment of, again, the community that you serve. Yep.
01:15:44
Speaker
Okay. So talking more about your hiring practices that you spoke of before, can you share with us, because I know there's a lot of aspiring dancers listening when you're holding auditions, what is drawing you to
Auditions and Dancer Qualities
01:15:56
Speaker
a dancer? What are you looking for? and I know people are going to want to know, do you actively have positions open this year for dancers in your company? Again, I go back to, I've ended up with a lot of dancers for some reason, which utterly confuses me. It seems like other companies didn't really what, which is, I'm like, but why? So we apparently see something different in people overall than what they've experienced previously like overall. I can't always speak to what that is, to be honest, because, you know, looking at the company that we have, it's a very unique company of dancers, which makes me happy. if Every single one of them,
01:16:30
Speaker
is different from the next. So there's not like a through line aesthetically or otherwise. I think what we look for is a lot like energy wise. So I guess on the technical standpoint, clean technique, we love. We love cleanliness. We love good placement and everything. We talk a lot in company classes and in general, Chaco passes on to me and then me just recovering from injuries and Brick, same thing. We really think a lot about, and it looks different for everyone, but just tapping into the musculature around proper placement for not only the technique ballet, but also personal health.
01:17:03
Speaker
So I think you can kind of see in an audition when when you feel like you're going to be able to get to that with them, open to feedback, good energy, technically clean technique. But I think more than anything, we've really intentionally created a process of a pipeline through the apprentice program into the company. I feel bad because we do have dancers that come in and even ones that I've taught when they were PDs at P&B that are like, you know I've been dancing in the core of somewhere and i really want to transition ballet juice. And I'm like, we're only hiring apprentices. Little, I will be candid, trickier with men. We have hired more into the general company because with any small ballet company, one of the things I've learned is just it's
01:17:36
Speaker
harder to find men for ballet companies. So we've had more of a mixed experience with the men. But as far as women go, our apprentice group is fully integrated into the company. As it sounds, every company class are together, they're cast with, even you know when choreographers and stagers come in, they're part of those auditions for being considered for works. And even some have had really great opportunities on that front. And they're integrated, but we also just really like having that time with them to assess both from a dancing standpoint, but really more than anything like a culture standpoint, whether they're a good fit for us. We take our corps ballet work extremely seriously. And I think that's something that a lot of ballet companies don't do enough of anymore is one seeking high quality corps de ballets. It's the backbone of any good ballet company. Having a good corps, audiences can tell. We get a lot of compliments on our corps ballet from our audience members. That corps ballet was so clean. I'm like, yes, so that was primarily Brit because she's the corps cleaner of all time. But I have friends that retired from the corps de ballet that were extremely talented dancers and did really hard, important work for ballet companies that were definitely made to feel like they were
01:18:40
Speaker
less than in their careers because they didn't make it quote unquote, pass the court of ballet. Just making it into a professional ballet company is so hard. And then to have served that ballet company as an exceptional core member is something to be celebrated and applauded, not looked down upon because also too, it's such a subjective art form and promotions within companies. We own that too. It's subjective. Like it's all just our opinion. If it doesn't feel like it's working with us, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work with another company. The world is big and it's part of artistry is like, as people, we all gravitate toward different qualities. within art. For us, basically, we always start out for Women With The Apprentice Program and then and really utilize that to see if it feels like they're going to be a part of our team moving forward. And something that we have started doing, because I know you know this, our snow scene is hard.
01:19:26
Speaker
Our Valley Tucson snow scene is no joke. I do love that. It's very popular. I remember during the pandemic polling our audience on social media, like, what's your favorite scene of Valley Tucson's Nutcracker? 90% of people said the snow scene. It's like very, very popular. So we want to keep it. I've made a couple little tweaks, but primarily still the same, but it's challenging. It's really, really hard. So actually, like, purely speaking, technically, part of our vetting process is could this dancer...
01:19:50
Speaker
do our snow scene. If we took this apprentice in and threw them into the snow scene, could they do it? Or could they, within the first couple months of working with us, be coached into doing it? Does it feel like there's that capacity to do? So we also think about it in that scope as well. of Like, could we coach this person into being ready for snow scene? But it's like, that's a thing. Because we do do the Nutcracker every year and that snow scene is demanded. And we've been trying to be better about having, especially for dancers that have been doing the snow scene for years, like having double casting of things so they don't have to like carry that every single show because in every single rehearsal, because it's hard. So we've been doing more double casts of snow. So we do fully expect The Apprentices to go into the snow scene, even into like center snow stuff. Lots of jumping, lots of running. The short snowflakes don't have to run around the wing anymore. I re-choreographed it. It's good news. I'm sure you were probably one of those snowflakes. I mean, it's legendary. It's legendary. People I talk to, like, even I feel like a few weeks ago, I was talking to a dancer here at Madison Ballet who was at Valley Tucson for a time and she was talking about how hard that snow scene is.
01:20:47
Speaker
It's legendary. If you're one of the short snowflakes, you don't exit anymore and then have to run all the way around the length the stage. You stay the stage and you do something else. It's much better. Yeah. But yeah, sorry so that's actually like, I guess, strength-wise, where I'm at, I will say too, we love strong dancers. Our rep is very dynamic. We gravitate toward it because all three of us in artistic staff really push ourselves a lot. The rep that we bring in is not easy rep. We do look for strength. Beyond that, you know, artistry 100% always stands out to me a lot. I can really tell when someone loves what they do.
01:21:14
Speaker
And there's one dancer in particular, I told our students this. She's been with us for three seasons now. She's also a teacher in the school now. And she had me at plies. I remember seeing Lauren in her audition. First combination, standing at bar. She did her preparation for plie, and there was just a depth of heart and care in like her port de bras.
01:21:34
Speaker
I was like, unless this dancer utterly blows the rest of this audition, there is no question that I want her. And it was literally her preparation for plies. That's how immediately just her expressiveness grabbed me. It didn't feel put on or like schmaltzy or anything. It just felt like it was like literally radiating from her heart. Now with working with her for three years, like that is so true to who she is as an artist. We notice the heart coming through for sure. And acknowledging too that dancers are, you nervous in auditions. Like we always have a grain of salt for that, of course. But I've gotten to place where I feel like primarily like I'm not perfect at it.
01:22:09
Speaker
I still end up learning things for apprentice years, but I would say like 90% of the time I can now spot an ego a mile away. We are not the place for you if you are that person. I think our dancers have a lot of kindness and humility, and I see that in them. And and one of the things that we do that is a bit different is we have people into the studio so we can see them Because I have realized this has been a learning curve for me as an artistic director then. videos and in person are very different sometimes. I've been kind of amazed actually. I never would have thought that there's somebody who's like, oh yeah, yes, absolutely. And then the person will have, like, is that the same person? It's really fascinating. So we do require in person because one, we want to really see, but also two, just because for us, it's a vibe check. More than anything, we try to be really intentional about who we invite here because we understand auditions are expensive, dancers are doing so many. We will really only invite you to and engage with us in person if we're like strongly considering this as a possibility. We don't want to waste your time. We don't want to waste your money. We don't want to waste our time. Collectively, it can be a respectful experience, but it's such for us that in-person interaction is so essential because it is such a solid vibe track. And we do after every audition, whether it be like an audition itself or like having someone in for company dance, we always say, do be prepared to have an actual interview with us. And we will sit there with you 15, 20 minutes.
01:23:27
Speaker
And we will talk. And sometimes, you know, instantly just how someone's communicating with you. Like, okay, this is not a good fit for our culture. And some people too, that just so immediately capture you in that way. You're like,
01:23:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah, you're okay. You're our kind of person. Absolutely. come on in. I ask dancers questions. We always start with an iceberg of like, tell us a bit about yourself. And I always say like, it could be anything. One of the cutest responses I've received was last year when was interviewing a dancer and they're like, I love to bake.
01:23:56
Speaker
I make cakes a lot. And I was like, I love that. That's how you started. I like this. I like this. But I actually asked him, like, what drew you to ballet to someone else? Like, what are you looking for in a company? Maybe I'm saying too much. Please don't use this as a tool to unless you mean it. But and if you're auditioning for us, but the dancers that we've ended up gravitating toward our dancers are very much process driven.
01:24:19
Speaker
And culture driven. Their answer contains something about seeking an environment of quality and professionalism and teamwork and the hard work in general, not in a put on way, but you can tell when someone sees that they understand the kind of work that is necessary to do this work well.
01:24:37
Speaker
Dancers around that and and certainly, again, environment-wise, I can always tell when a dancer is a nice person that is being nice, but clearly how like had an experience that was maybe not so good. It shifts something in you and it shifts what you're looking for and how you communicate about what you need emotionally and it not in a like needy way, but just I've been able to now spot it in dancers where it's like something off happened to you and you're being very gracious about it now, but I can tell that you're seeking a different kind of experience and that you would then, because you'd be given a better experience, appreciate that and then contribute. Every dancer feeds into this culture. Like the culture is made by all of us. So it's like, you can tell the people that are going to be given this new opportunity to have a different life in dance and carry that preciously. And then they also want to positively keep that moving forward. Yeah.
01:25:27
Speaker
We are trying to identify not just good dancers, but good people. I've received so many compliments from our audience members and our board of directors now. When they talk to the dancers, we're like, you just have such a nice group of people here and and actually fellow auditioners. I was really blown away. I think I had six or seven people that came in to audition last year that came in and it was like, it was such a genuine reaction. Like,
01:25:49
Speaker
Everyone's so nice here. like Everyone's just so welcoming and like all the dancers are so kind. and it And I love that they're not only treating each other in the company, but it's like the fact that they're rolling out the red carpet to company auditioners. Typically for ballet companies, it can be such a tense experience and becomes like almost like a territorial vibe of like, I'm in the company and what are you doing here? And I love that ours are like the polar ops. They're like, where are you from? How's it going? do you need anything? The bathroom is still there. like let me show you how to work the water machine." like That's so genuinely the group that we have, which I love.
01:26:18
Speaker
I now, because we've hit our stride this year, now more than ever, it's like I feel so protective of that. I go into like a little bit of a bodyguard feeling of, if I'm going to invite anyone into this sphere, I don't want them messing this up.
01:26:30
Speaker
Like we have worked too hard to get to this place and all these dancers are just such kind people. i The last thing in them I want to do is invite someone in that's going to disrupt that. I want this to be the team that it is and I want to continue that. And, you know, it's almost kind of scary a little bit now because we hear so much about that.
01:26:46
Speaker
please don't come in if you're going to be crazy. So yeah, I mean, in a company like Valley Tucson, that is so important. I mean, i feel like in a larger company, of course, culture and vibe are important, but the day-to-day reality of how you're interacting with people is different than when you're in a company where it's like everyone's together.
01:27:03
Speaker
All of the personalities can make a really big difference in how the interactions go and how people feel. And I think it's really a testament to your leadership that people feel so safe in their positions and feel so nurtured that they are able to then interact with each other that way, interact with new people that way, that they don't feel threatened because you've made them feel that way. It takes a lot to lose your job here anymore. Some substantial stuff needed to have happened. I'm glad that they all don't feel like they're hanging on by a thread. Like at any given moment, we're going to pull that rug out from under them. If they're doing good work,
01:27:37
Speaker
I'm not trying to sound silly, like that's actually the key to success here. It's like being a kind person that works hard, that does good work and is respectful and positively contributes to the culture of the organization and the quality of the organization. Like that's it.
01:27:50
Speaker
Like that's actually it. but There's no like secret agenda or that is actually all I want it to take to succeed. And that's been working. I will say as far as hiring this year, we're actually not entirely sure. Because we're a small company, we don't have a big budget.
01:28:06
Speaker
Our contracts are nowhere still where they need to be. Every year we've been issuing raises to the answers. We've been trying to chip away at that work every single year. But we're so small. I remember so romantically my first year being like, everything's going to change in a year. And then i was like, oh, this is way harder between ticket sales and funding. Okay, well, this is going to take longer than I thought. So we've been working every year to improve what we can, including pay, but it's still not to be kind of like, it's not a glamorous contract. It's really not. It's still a 20 week contract. contract. It's on a long contract. That's another thing that I was romantically like, three years from now, we're going to need 30 weeks. Like, well, there went that, especially now with all the things that are happening in arts funding. So that part is hard. But what we have tried to do is we went ranked for a few reasons. One, to give more understanding of where people stood, especially for dancers that had been with the company previously that really felt like they, what am i What am I to this company? So we were kind of trying to create some clarity around that as we went through the transition of trying to become a different organization. But two, part of it was Also trying to, it's like, okay, I can't night and day everyone's salary overnight, but what I can do is try to create a structure where we can, again, year after year, like per portion of this company, try to create one more equity between men and women was a huge goal as a women-led organization that didn't previously exist. And then gradually it's like, where is this? and dumi sosis How can we like bring each of those things up?
01:29:29
Speaker
year over year in a way that is sustainable for our budget. So that's how that was born. But additionally, it's also given me the ability to try to just get more dancers into it's like, okay, even if it's a modest pay, like that first year core salary is not what I would like it to be.
01:29:43
Speaker
But it's still a first year core contract, and it's still a salary. So it's like, how do we then get more people out of apprentice into core. So I'm actually really excited this year because I feel like we finally hit where I wanted to get, which is now having a more robust core and a smaller need for apprentices, which is the lowest in resources as far as what we were able
Apprenticeships and Growth Opportunities
01:30:04
Speaker
to offer. So every year, you know, with Chaco and Brick, we've made a lot of moves to try to get dancers out of the apprentice program into the core de ballet. First year we promoted four.
01:30:13
Speaker
Second year we promoted four. This past year we promoted five into the core. This year we're promoting three because money has been a little bit tighter, but also two because we're finally getting to more of like our true core de ballet are these women. And now we're in a place like theirs comfortably. We know them. They've been with us for a couple of years or more. These are our people that are carrying the shows now this way. and We're more just like minorly contributing into that as far as new people go. So this year actually we do plan to only have four apprentice positions available. We have offered first rights to our apprentices that were not promoted in his core. Sometimes our apprentice program is a two year program. So they do have a right to do a second year with us if they so choose. So we're kind of in that place where it's like we actually only have four spots.
01:30:53
Speaker
And I don't know in this exact moment, the moment this interview is happening, I don't know. who or if any of them are going to return for a second year CORE. And we always are, again, very transparent with our apprentice program people that there's no guarantee to get into CORE. Every year, I don't know what the budget's going to look like by the time we get to the half year mark. I also don't know if anybody is going to retiring or leaving for whatever reason. and We just ask to be kept apprised. If you are planning on to audition, just let us know. doesn't have to be like a secret here. Like it's fine. It's fine to seek other opportunities. And so we're in that place of just kind of waiting to hear back from those apprentices that didn't make that move into the Corps to see whether they do plan to explore another option or if they do want to come back. It's going to be our smallest apprentice group in a while.
01:31:34
Speaker
We might have spots available. We're kind of in the early stages of knowing what we actually have available. And then same thing with we are seeking another male dancer, but we have had a couple of conversations with dancers already. So I don't know if that's going to free or not free. So it feels good to finally have a more solid group and to see the returning faces year over year. Being a newer director myself, it feels cool to finally have a group that's been with me for a minute and that it feels like we're going to continue to be with each other for a while. So maybe we may or may not be...
01:32:02
Speaker
Well, I think it's great for dancers at that apprentice level to know that this is a company that really nurtures the dancers within the company and does once.
01:32:12
Speaker
to have a pipeline into the Corps de Valet as opposed to we're just bringing in apprentices to fill our corps for a year or two and then good luck out there. This could lead to something more. i mean, of course, apprentice position anywhere is like there's training, there's experience, there's something to it, but you do want to know that there is also opportunity to move into that corps. It's a priority that I feel like I've seen fall off with some companies, especially with trainee programs growing. And you have not only situations where dancers are either not being paid, like ours has been an unpaid apprentice position where we're giving what is, again, a small stipend next year, but still very small. But, you know, you have dancers either
01:32:51
Speaker
essentially working for free as pre-professionals or sometimes paying to be in programs, just desperately hoping to be considered. And then I've been seeing it happen more often than not. It seems like the pipeline does seem to kind of not exist some places anymore or barely exists where it's like, yeah come spend the year or two with us.
01:33:09
Speaker
And we're still going to grab a dancer from another company from the outside that's going to jump ahead of you in the queue. And I want to, as much as humanly possible, not do that. So we've basically haven't. I've only ever made that exception once in my life. And that's the only time I intend to make that exception. And it's a dancer that I have seen nothing but wonderful thing. I knew her as a PD. She was a dancer that was thinking she shouldn't be dancing professionally.
Integrity and Personal Growth
01:33:31
Speaker
And i was like, you're wrong. You're not quitting. I'm determined. You are so not going to give up on this as a career because you 100% should do this as a career. you're going to come to me for a year and then you'll send you out in the world again. But yeah, just that's the only time ever ever. And it was a very extraordinary person, extraordinary circumstance. But yeah, I want our apprentices, you know, they work really hard for us and I want them to believe that that work is paying off and that it will be valued and honored. And even if that doesn't mean a contract with us, like if we don't have room, If we don't have the budget, if we don't have the space for everybody, who knows what my funding will look like next year if I don't even have a position in the Corps or whatever way it will happen. I hope to have an environment where they feel like they can trust that we will honor their commitment to us. And even if we don't have a spot here, if you have worked well and hard for us and we you know, note like, and trust you, then you can count on also a good reference from us, like genuinely. And you don't have to be afraid to audition somewhere else. It might just not be able to work out here. But yeah, it's hard out there. Like i said, art spending is dwindling nationally and dancers, there's so many that need work. It's hard. Yeah, I don't envy that position that you're in to have to make those tough decisions.
01:34:40
Speaker
This has been so amazing. So much wisdom in this conversation for dancers. I The last question I had for you is if you had to give dancers who are pursuing a professional career one piece of advice, what would you tell them? Have integrity. I know that sounds really woo-woo probably for me, but just have integrity. You know, as we talked about, this is ah finite career. Your time in it is, first of all, not guaranteed at all.
01:35:06
Speaker
And it's not guaranteed to be long and it's not guaranteed to be successful. But having been through the career myself and again, just all the people I know, not just through the dance world, work in a way where you can be proud of the work that you did and the person that you are so that no matter what happens, you can always carry that with you because success is not guaranteed.
01:35:29
Speaker
And at the end of the day, then we all have to sleep at night with ourselves. And I feel like that commitment to integrity just... is something that will see you through no matter what direction life takes you. And it's hard because it requires a lot of patience. You'll encounter things that will push your boundaries and you'll have people that operate in a different way that will expect you to operate in a negative way with them.
01:35:55
Speaker
And to define for yourself a path of integrity in this world generally is hard. So I think the more that you can actually actively commit to that in yourself, the better that will serve you, not only in your work, but also in your life in general. And I think integrity of work tends to lead to better dancing. It's mastery of a craft. As much as we work to nurture our dancers, we still have very high expectations around the actual quality of what we're doing. It's a beautiful craft.
01:36:20
Speaker
art form to be a part of. And it's a wonderful, challenging art form to be a part of. When you approach your work with integrity and authenticity, that you not only want to get something out of it for yourself, but you also believe that is a beautiful art form that deserves the best possible care you can give it you will probably dance better because you will acknowledge and identify all the ways that you can do whatever piece of choreography, whatever class you're taking at the highest level, because you're identifying every little thing within that class, artistically, technically, that you can pour more of yourself into and up-level. So I think when the up-leveling of a dancer comes from a place of genuine love for the art form and integrity for the work,
01:37:04
Speaker
It's a natural progression. When you hold the opportunity of dancing so preciously that you want to do it well, and you work to think about what that actually means and all the ways that you can explore that intellectually, you know there's so much to do. That's the thing I realized a dancer was like, I can think of any given piece of choreography I've ever had the opportunity to dance and think about every single moment of what could be done with it.
Influence of William Forsyth
01:37:30
Speaker
Technically, musically, artistically. And I will say the best compliment I ever received in my entire life, i was like, I could die tomorrow and put it on my tombstone. William Forsyth, who, what a legend, first of all, what a legend, but also what a kind man and what a beautiful mind. Like he's one of the most eloquent people I've ever met.
01:37:47
Speaker
Just what he says about the work and the choreography and dance in general. like He thinks about it all the time from so many different angles. like It's a highly intellectual experience for him and he inspires that in dancers. It's not just about the dancing and it's, on do oh great, you balance whatever, everything. I got to be a part of the Celebrate Forsyth Festival in LA. We did the Richiginous Earl of Exactitude, which is the hardest 12 minute ballet I've ever done in my life. It's so short and it feels like you've done a full length ballet. It's like, am I on point at the end? I don't know. I might be on point. Like I can't feel anything. It's so hard, but it's also, as with everything he does, it's incredibly musical. And there's all these like weird washing machine transitions. I think to dance stuff like that, well, David Dawson stuff, all these things, like you have to actually intellectually plot all that stuff out to do it well. And that's also the fun part. It then becomes like a cool, fun maze slash puzzle, which is the work I love where it's like not just dancing, but like, wow, there's so much to chew on here. And there's so much to like figure out how I can do better. And like, that is a weird transition. What do I need to do with my weight or my angle or what other part of my body needs to activate? There's all these little things to tie in together. But he came in and he watched us in Seattle before we took it to LA.
01:38:56
Speaker
And he stopped at Short Valley, section by section, gave feedback. and I had a solo in it. And I went to X of the solo and he stopped. I said, well, this will be a podcast, but he motioned with his finger to come to me.
01:39:08
Speaker
And I was like, oh my God. Am I in trouble? I'm probably in trouble. Had me come close. I mean, had me get really close to him in his face. And he like leaned into me and he was like, you've thought a lot about this, haven't you?
01:39:22
Speaker
I said, um Yeah. of like Face to face with William Forsythe. He said, I can tell. I wish everyone thought about my work the way that you do. Great job. That's it.
01:39:36
Speaker
And it's like, oh my God, everything from here on out, I will just like echo, that will echo in my head and sustain me for the rest of my life. But it's that kind thing. It's like, I feel the same way about dances he felt and like identifying all this, the process. And I think that's something that I,
01:39:50
Speaker
genuinely believe integrity ties into and will like help you shine through as an answer is the natural care that you commit to your work.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:40:00
Speaker
emotionally, mentally, and physically on a daily basis will carry you forward. You can't help it. If you put that much care in, you will grow.
01:40:09
Speaker
That was another 10 minute response to your one. I love it, Meg. That was great. And I love that story. That's amazing. Yeah. Like that's If I have to retire tomorrow, I'm all right. Yes. That will, yeah. Have you walking on a cloud for sure. This has been so great. Thank you for being so candid with all your answers and with all your experiences. If anyone listening wants to learn more about you or about Valley Tucson, where can we find you?
01:40:34
Speaker
You can find us on social media primarily. So we do have a Valley Tucson website, valleytucson.org. But beyond that, I have a personal Instagram account, so Margaret Mullen. And then Ballet Tucson.
01:40:45
Speaker
And we also have our wonderful school, the School of Ballet Tucson. So if any young dancers in Southern Arizona are looking for a place to be, really proud of our school, really proud of our teachers and the work that we do. And 100% commitment to give everything that served me well in my life to our students. So I'm excited to continue on that legacy. So i hope people will join us if you're in Southern Arizona. Amazing. Thank you so much, Maggie. This was wonderful.
01:41:06
Speaker
Thank you.
01:41:10
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
01:41:23
Speaker
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01:41:36
Speaker
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