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103. The Reality of Raising a Professional Dancer with My Mom, Brenda Younker
177 Plays8 days ago
In this episode of The Brainy Ballerina Podcast, I’m joined by my mom, Brenda Younker, for an honest conversation about what it’s really like to raise a professional dancer.
After hearing from so many parents who feel overwhelmed trying to navigate the ballet world, I decided to bring my mom on the pod to share her firsthand experience. We dive into everything, including the whirlwind of pre-professional training, summer intensives, injuries, college decisions, and ultimately building a professional dance career.
From backstage memories and pointe shoe fittings to navigating casting disappointments and learning how to communicate through difficult decisions, this episode is filled with insight, humor, and heartfelt advice for dancers and parents alike.
Key “Pointes” in this Episode
- My late start in ballet at the age of 10 and how quickly my training accelerated
- The emotional and logistical reality of navigating summer intensives and pre-professional opportunities
- How parents learn the “language” of the ballet world alongside their dancers
- The pressure of making career-defining decisions at a very young age
- Choosing between college and a direct professional path
- The importance of dancers developing identities outside of ballet
- Advice for parents on supporting their dancer without overstepping
- Why dancers need trusted adults and mentors outside of their parents
Links and Resources:
Brandllet: www.brandllet.com
ORZA: www.orzabrand.com (use code BRAINYBALLERINA for 10% off)
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Growth in Dance
00:00:00
Speaker
If you're accepting the fact that you don't know everything, then you can ask questions and learn. If you go into the situation as a parent thinking, I got this, I know everything there is to know about this, you're going to miss something because you can't know everything. This is a very unusual world.
00:00:19
Speaker
I'm Kaitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:35
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Dance Journey Begins
00:00:53
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina Podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by my mom, Brenda Yonker, the ultimate dance mom. I have had an influx of parents reaching out to me lately asking for support because They feel like they're coming into this dance world with their child and they want to be supportive, but they don't really understand the world. It's not their career. And so they're just feeling a bit overwhelmed and unsure of what to do. And so I thought I would bring on my mom to talk about her experience in this dance world. So mom, do you remember my first dance class? Do you remember how it went?
00:01:33
Speaker
I do. I remember the very, very first when you were very small, three or Maybe three and a half. And it was more like a creative movement class, but it was at a community center. And you loved the costuming and the tutu, and you loved the music, but you didn't love the instruction all that much.
00:01:53
Speaker
So the first class at the end, the teacher said, i think she maybe needs to be a little bit older before she comes back to have instruction. So I think we just kept up with the music at our house, ballet music, and kept the tutu to play in.
00:02:08
Speaker
But we didn't go back to a class for quite a while. So when I went back, I was 10 years old. How did that go? Did I just tell you that I wanted to go to try ballet again?
00:02:19
Speaker
It's interesting looking back on this after so many years, but for those listeners who don't know, Caitlin's the oldest of four. So when she was ready to go back to ballet, the youngest of our children had just been born.
00:02:32
Speaker
There's a 10-year gap. And we decided, my husband and I decided, that they could each do one extracurricular activity because with four children, if you have more than one activity per kid, it just gets overwhelming. So Caitlin said, I'd like to try ballet.
00:02:47
Speaker
We didn't do a lot of research because this whole conversation is pre-internet. So it's really a different world. But there was a ballet studio very near our house, just a mile or two. And we thought, oh, this will be easy to get to. And you know she can take her class once a week.
00:03:03
Speaker
And you loved it. and You really loved it. And you loved the predictability of it. You loved that there was etiquette involved. That was a real nice thing that you really enjoyed. I mean, obviously, at our house, it was pretty chaotic. So to go to a ballet class where you could have the instruction, you really did like it.
00:03:19
Speaker
It's so interesting to me that I had such a turn from being, i mean, it's normal as a young kid to want to just do a little bit more of the creative running around part of it, I guess. But like going from that to being so obsessed with almost like the order and the etiquette and everything, was that a personality shift I had as well?
00:03:38
Speaker
Oh, I don't think so. I think it's because when you started, you were an only child. Yeah. At the other end, it was just a lot going on at our house. I don't think there was any complaining about it or you didn't complain about pain and you know you you like the teacher.
00:03:56
Speaker
After about six or eight months, you came home, you got in the car one day and you got really upset and you said, she just keeps giving me corrections and I i just i just feel terrible. And I said, oh, she knows that you have the potential to do more.
00:04:10
Speaker
So don't worry about the corrections. That's a good sign. But yeah, things kind of took off pretty quickly after you got back into it at 10. Yeah, that was really good advice because I took that with me the rest of my career when you said that. and I don't know that I would have had that mindset shift because that wasn't explained to me, I think,
Mindset Shifts and Parental Support
00:04:26
Speaker
as a dancer. It was kind of known by your teacher.
00:04:29
Speaker
yeah If I'm paying more attention to you, then that means I believe in you. But it wasn't spoken out loud. And – knowing more about myself now and how my brain works and everything – getting the corrections felt like rejection. And so I felt like I was just terrible and being rejected constantly. And you saying that was definitely really pivotal for me.
00:04:49
Speaker
And shortly after that, It was interesting because it was only a year and a half or so after you started instruction that the director of that school, which, by the way, can I just say what a serendipitous kind of situation to be in to have that level of instruction.
00:05:05
Speaker
And we just fell into it. We didn't really do research. We just were like, this will work. This is close. But the level of instruction at the Rochester School of Dance is phenomenal and yeah has been amazing.
00:05:16
Speaker
for years and years. So that was just really a blessing. But not long after you started, your teacher said, we need to up the level of instruction for her. So she invited us to come to the second studio, which was 40 minutes from our house for a whole summer. So if I remember correctly, they kind of gave you like two years and a year of instruction. By the end of that year, you were you were ready for pointe shoes. And after pointe shoes, yeah, all bets are off because you were you were like hooked, hooked big time.
00:05:47
Speaker
When you first signed me up for that ballet class, did you have any idea that it could turn into a career or were you just like, she's going to try an activity? i think the latter. I think it was more, this will be a good thing to do. And she obviously enjoys it. And I loved watching it. It was my dream. i was like a little girl who wanted to be a ballerina. So I was all in on this. I'm like, this is great. But no, I didn't really think that far ahead until you got into maybe when you were like 13 and they started talking about summer intensives and
00:06:19
Speaker
things like that. Then I realized, oh, this could go quite a ways. So when I started getting into that stage and I wanted to go away from home for a summer intensive, well, I actually remember the first time I wanted to go away from home and that first summer you had said no yeah because all my friends were going away. And I think that was what drove a lot of it. But I went dancing like two years and you were just like, I don't think we're ready for that yet. And I remember being really upset about that, which now looking back, I understand as a parent.
00:06:43
Speaker
But when I started wanting to go away for summer intensives or getting those offers to train year round, What were your thoughts about that? How did you help me work through those decisions? Your dad and I tried to, before we had the discussion with you, we determined as a couple what we were comfortable with, what the cost was, because the cost became a consideration. I laughed when I say that each of the children had one extracurricular, but your extracurricular ended up being six days a week. Yeah.
00:07:10
Speaker
And many more hours than we anticipated. So anyway, we did have those discussions where we were talking about cost, what our comfort level was with you, who was going to be there, who was the supervision. And then we would come to you and talk about, okay, what do you feel comfortable doing? Do you want to do the one that's in Detroit where you can come home every night? Do you want to do the one in Pittsburgh where you have to stay there? Are there any particular program that you're really wanting to dance with or learn their rap? It was a pretty high learning curve at that point, because here's the thing about ballet.
00:07:41
Speaker
It's an entirely different language, literally and figuratively. It's yeah in French, and it's a whole world that has some built-in rules that we had to learn in a hurry. I don't remember us disagreeing a lot about where you were going to go. I think once we got to the point of you were in a pre-professional program and this was what was expected, then we just kept going.
00:08:03
Speaker
When you were trying to learn that language and make those decisions, did you have anyone to turn to to ask those questions? How did you figure this out? Well, because I am a lover of dance, I was reading point magazine, you know, I was reading trade magazines and backstage was where all the moms helped during performances. So your company, the pre-professional company, did Nutcracker and Sleeping Beauty, and the Ballet Guild, which was all the moms, did all the work. So there was a lot of conversations happening backstage. There were some mothers who had daughters that were older, and they were very helpful.
00:08:43
Speaker
There were some moms that... were older than me, but they had children the same age. They were a little bit more helpful as far as not getting too worked up about things like this will pass, don't worry about that casting. They had a better perspective, I think, because they had the benefit of age. And a lot of the other moms were professionals themselves in different areas. So they had a broader view of the world in general. That was really helpful. There might have been one or two classes or discussions from the school director But I don't remember there being a lot of help otherwise. Your programs would have been wonderful to have.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. mean, it was sort of baked in, I guess, in the sense that we were auditioning for summer intensives. I thought it was really great that our program had auditions for our company every year that we had to go to. We had to bring our resume and our photo. And there was a guest panel of judges, even though it was internal.
00:09:36
Speaker
So we got used to that whole process. So I did feel like even though i didn't have a sit-down class that told me how to do that stuff, it was like you said, we kind of asked other parents and it was sort of this whole built-in ecosystem where they had maybe trained the first parents.
00:09:52
Speaker
And then everyone just kept trickling it down as it went. But yeah, I don't know that there was someone we could have, at least at the time that we knew of, at least like you said, there wasn't a lot of internet or social media where you could have like found someone who specifically was specializing in what I do now.
00:10:08
Speaker
Exactly. Yes. I had not heard of any program that was available like yours is now. I think that, like you said, it was just that we went from level to level. And at each level, we gathered a little bit more information.
00:10:23
Speaker
We understood, as I saw other dancers from your school go on to professional careers, then I was able to understand more what the process was.
00:10:33
Speaker
Like I said, the women, the mothers that were in business
Choosing Dance Over Other Paths
00:10:36
Speaker
had a different view of this. And they said, oh, well, these things have to happen in order for there to be enough money for that person to get hired. Those kind of conversations were helpful. I have to say, I don't know if it's true for a lot of couples, but I was the one doing most of the investigating. Your dad was like, who do I write the check to?
00:10:52
Speaker
He was busy with his career and I was busy with three other kids. So yeah, there wasn't a lot of investigating on his part. I was doing most of that. Yeah, that's like a whole other job to try to manage your kid's career when they're 14 years old. And like you said, the oldest of four, you have a lot.
00:11:09
Speaker
yeah That you're juggling. Right. What felt the most confusing or overwhelming to you when you were trying to figure out how to support me in this process? Oh, like I said before, learning the new language, that was a lot. I don't know if you remember, but we used to have to travel quite a ways even to get pointe shoes. Yeah.
00:11:29
Speaker
which was a pretty good-sized community we would have to travel another hour to find a store that had a lot of pointe shoes to choose from. I remember that appointment. What was that store called? I don't remember the store, but it it was in Lansing. Yeah. And it was like the place to go. And she had so many shoes and she would climb down in that basement and just bring up like 50 pairs of shoes.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yes. And you had, and there was a little, like a mom chair that you could sit there and that was great. And then, then she had the small stage with the bar so you could get up on point you could see all your things. But,
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, it was amazing because she literally, it was like the store itself was very small, but she had it stacked from floor to ceiling, eight foot ceilings with four inch boxes of Point shoes. Yeah, that was amazing. But I got to tell you, the look on your face the first time you rolled up on point, it was oh it was so sweet. You were just beaming like, this is it. This is the thing. That was great.
00:12:24
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like kind of going back to that, I tried so many other things before I did ballet and nothing really captured my interest. And I see it with my kids now, or at least with Ollie. I see him trying all these things and he's like, yeah, that's fine. But I don't see that level of where he's like, I really want to do this.
00:12:44
Speaker
But when I found ballet, it was like, it just made so much sense to me in every way, physically, mentally, everything about it just was like, oh, this is exactly how my brain and my body work.
00:12:57
Speaker
It was like the language. I already understood it. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah. Other things that were overwhelming were navigating casting, casting that didn't go the way you hoped, casting that went the way you hoped and other dancers were not happy about it. That was sometimes an issue. Yeah. The summer that you went to Kego Harbor, which was the second studio, that was a lot of driving, coordinating.
00:13:20
Speaker
The summer programs, the first one seemed very confusing, but after that you realized they were pretty much run the same way, so you understood what was going to happen. Although that one was weird when I went to APT Detroit that first year. Do you remember we stayed in a hotel?
00:13:35
Speaker
Oh, that's right. There was no dorms and it was like just a public hotel. Yes. And looking back, I'm kind of like, huh, because there was just other random people in there. And I don't think I realized at the time of looking back because I went back and was a counselor later and was in a whole different situation, able to be in the dorms and everything. And I'm looking at that going, I don't think there was a level of security that I thought there was. Yeah.
00:13:56
Speaker
That's a good point. At that time. really great Well, I was thinking the other day about how you went to Pittsburgh on crutches. Remember, you had you had the accident. You went to Pittsburgh on crutches. and Yeah, it was a golf cart accident. Yeah. It was a fundraiser for the ballet company, and you got hurt at the fundraiser on the golf course. You recovered, and you danced in Pittsburgh, and...
00:14:18
Speaker
you called and said, they want me to stay. he asked me to stay. And your dad and I were just like, this is so great. This is so cool. But then we realized, how many careers do you have where you get to make the decision at 15 or 16 that you're going to be part of a company or you're going to move on into that next level? It's just a very niche kind of thing.
00:14:42
Speaker
There's very few things, I think. Maybe other professional athletes might have that same situation where they're picked really early and they have to make a decision very young. But
Balancing Dance and Education
00:14:51
Speaker
15 is a hard time to make that kind of decision to move away from home.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah, that whole process was so crazy too because like you said, I had that injury. I had second-degree burns on my leg, so I couldn't even bend my knee. i had to be in a wheelchair at first because I couldn't bend my knee to use crutches. and Then eventually I got there and i was on crutches and so barely dancing. and Then by the end – and that was amazing too because they had a whole sign-up sheet at the intensive that said, if you're interested in talking to us about the year-round program, sign up for a slot. and I – which is coming off this crazy injury. I was 15 years old.
00:15:27
Speaker
I was barely back to dancing. scene And I was like, i don't think that I'm going to do that. And then they called me in anyway. And I remember the director of the school saying, why didn't you sign up for a slot?
00:15:38
Speaker
I think you should. and I told him my whole spiel and he said, well, we want you to come and offer me the spot. And so that was also like kind of amazing because it was like, oh, they want me to come. But then I decided not to. Do you remember? i don't even really have a super clear memory of those conversations. I remember just thinking like I'm not writing away from home yet, but do you have a more clear memory of how that went and how we decided that that was not going to be the path that I was going to take that year?
00:16:04
Speaker
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00:17:06
Speaker
The discussion I remember between your dad and I was that we started comparing the school system you would have been in. Because you would have had to finish your high school career at that program.
00:17:18
Speaker
And the school district that we lived in was, you were in public school, but it was a very highly rated public school. That was one of the determinants that we said, it's better to just finish. And as well, you were not completely gung-ho about being away from your family. So that was another indicator to us. Truth be told, we probably were just nervous about it and were just like, no is the easiest answer at this point. And looking back on this whole process, sometimes I made decisions out of fear instead of information.
00:17:48
Speaker
I think that parents now have such a tremendous ability to access information. that they're able to make those decisions with a lot more factors involved. a lot of times mine was what I was afraid might happen instead of understanding what the program was.
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah, and I remember even Cornelia calling me into her office, and I don't remember who this teacher was, but we had these amazing masterclasses over the summer for two weeks where she would bring in guest teachers. and It was like a little summer intensive at our studio, and I cannot for the life of me remember which teacher was there this particular summer, but she had her in the office too, and they both were like really trying to talk me into going away. And that was one thing I always think that Cornelia did really well is she didn't ever want her students – to stay because she wanted to like keep them in her studio because they were her good students. You know, she was always like, as soon as you got an offer, as soon as you were ready to go away, she was super encouraging of that. She knew that that was the path that a lot of dancers took, and especially in her generation. That was the way.
00:18:53
Speaker
Right. Right. So I think she was already dancing professionally around that age. Yes. She was in New York by then. Yeah. Yeah. So she was like, you have to go. She was really encouraging of me. And I just, like you said, i don't know if it was fear or what, but I didn't feel ready. And I also did know that I had great training where I was.
00:19:11
Speaker
So it wasn't like I had to leave to get good training. I was getting such excellent training where I was. So there was that too. But i think it's always important. I always tell dancers and parents this. Like I didn't take that path and I still became a professional dancer. So maybe would have happened sooner if I had done that or a different way.
00:19:31
Speaker
and I definitely would say like you should look at is it fear that's driving the decisions Or is it a real not wanting to go because you don't feel that you're ready? I think you'll never feel ready, but is it just not right for you?
00:19:45
Speaker
Yes. And I'm curious about you, what your mindset was at that point. Did you realize how fast it was going to go? From 10 years old when you restarted to 15 when they were saying you could join a company as a core. No, it wasn't even a core. It was probably an apprentice. It was. No, way it wasn't even the company. It was just the year-round school. I see. Okay. Okay.
00:20:02
Speaker
But it was like a pathway into the company, right? Right. Did you realize it was going to happen that fast? No, and I don't think I was prepared for that at all. And I think that's another thing about it is I didn't go into that summer intensive thinking I'm trying to get a spot in this program. Yes.
00:20:17
Speaker
And so when that happened, it was so fast, right? Because you're going from this intensive, it's five weeks... pretty much in July. and then three weeks later, I was going to be starting at this school.
00:20:29
Speaker
Like there wasn't enough time in my brain, I think, to reconcile that I would move away from my whole family, all my siblings, my parents, what everything I knew, my dance school that I loved, my academic school that I didn't love but was comfortable with.
00:20:44
Speaker
Right. And yeah, it's familiar and go to a whole new place. And I think that quick of a mindset shift was not available to me. And if I had gone into it thinking like this is what I'm trying to get out of this program, it would have been a totally different situation.
00:20:59
Speaker
And so I think that is the case though for a lot of dancers is things do happen quickly. And I think also like at that point, I remember talking to you about the fact that I wasn't even really sure if I wanted to be a professional. Like I was training at that level and I loved it and I loved doing that, but I wasn't 100% sure I wanted it to be my whole life.
00:21:17
Speaker
And I think that was another thing we talked about a lot was like, if you stay at your academic school you're at now, which like you said was a really good school, there might be more options open. If you choose this path, the other ones might kind of fade away for you and this is the path you have to take. And I wasn't totally sure that I was ready to make that commitment.
00:21:35
Speaker
Right. Which now I realize like I could have always changed my mind and come back and all those things. But in my mind, it was like, if you do this, that's your life. You don't get another choice. And that was another thing that I think I dealt with a lot too that I still do. We talk about this all the time is like, that black and white thinking pattern that you get stuck in is like, it's this or that, instead of it could be let's try this. And then that didn't work. Let's try this instead. I didn't have that thought.
00:22:01
Speaker
We didn't have that direction from us as parents. For our family, we were, you're going to college. That was our mindset from the time we had children. We're saving money for them to go to college. There was not the thought that we were saving money to send you to a ballet company. That was more in the mix. So when that option became available, then we all had to shift our thinking.
00:22:24
Speaker
So there was a couple of things. One was that you had a pretty tight knit family. We're pretty close. And so that's a consideration. The fact that you had a good school system was the fact that it was farther away from your house. So these are all factors that are going to vary between dancers and Every family has a different situation about what's happening in their family and their finances and their geographic location.
00:22:46
Speaker
So those things might happen differently for everybody. But I do remember there being a year, a gap year kind of, where you had one summer that you did not go to an intensive. Yeah. I didn't go after Pittsburgh.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah. I think that after that one, I just had this idea that I wanted to have a normal childhood. it was like something about that experience triggered something in me that maybe made me realize how quickly this pathway was going to force me to grow up.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yes. And – I had a really like intense reaction to that, almost like, oh, no, I'm not ready for that. I don't want to be a grown up yet. I want to be a kid. And didn't go to a summer intensive for, I think, the next couple of summers and got a retail job. worked at Abercrombie and just like stayed home. You said, if you don't go to a summer intensive, you have to get a job. And I was like, all right, I'll just work at this retail store.
00:23:39
Speaker
And I still took classes all summer at my studio. wasn't like I didn't dance at all, but I just was like, okay, maybe I don't want to have my whole childhood defined by this one thing because I don't even know if it's for sure the thing that I want to do forever.
00:23:54
Speaker
Right. So I think you as a dancer and we as parents arrived at the same realization about the same time that this could be fast tracked if you wanted it. But if you didn't, you still had opportunities to dance, to
Passion and Performance
00:24:09
Speaker
perform. You've always loved performing. You loved training, but stage is where you just light up. And that conversation came back around at the end of your senior year when you were looking for college programs in dance and you also were auditioning and your director was thinking, you really need to go. This is it. You have to go to a company.
00:24:27
Speaker
And there was a little bit of tension there when you decided not to. You decided to go to college. And I remember one experience where we had gone to a graduation ceremony for one of your cousins. And you had said to me, if I don't go to college now, I'm not sure I'll ever go back and do it. If I'm on that path, I got to stay on that path. But we had gone to a graduation ceremony for one of your cousins. And there were women at the end of the ceremony receiving PhDs, and they were in their 60s and 70s.
00:24:55
Speaker
And you looked at me and said, oh, you can go to school anytime. i never thought about it like that. There was constantly this revision of what you were going to do going forward, which I think happens to everybody.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah. But we were pushing you to go to college, I think, and you were feeling like that was something that you needed to do at this particular age, 18 to 22, and that was a decision you made and still had a fabulous career. So yeah it could work. yeah Although you did go graduate with college in three years.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yes. Because when Cornelia was saying, like, you should go audition, you're ready, I don't think she was wrong in that sense. Like, she was right. And she had so many...
00:25:36
Speaker
alumni, going professional careers. I mean, the number of people out of that studio who have become professionals is pretty staggering right for you know a non-company affiliated school, a local ballet school.
00:25:49
Speaker
And I think as a dancer too, like that was helpful for me because I actually saw that it was possible. I didn't have to like dream about it. It was like, oh, if I do these things, this is what happens. All these people I know are are doing this.
00:26:02
Speaker
And I feel like I was one of the first people to say I'm going to go to college who was going to keep going with it. Yes. i think I think most of the people who decided to keep dancing were going directly into companies. And so I was one of the first who was kind of like, I think I'm going to do college. And another thing that I'm just thinking about is how much I actually really liked the idea of like being an academic.
00:26:24
Speaker
Like I loved reading. and I liked all of that. Like I liked the idea of being in a college setting. Like when I went to visit university, I thought, oh, I could see myself here. i like this whole idea of being in the setting.
00:26:36
Speaker
And I did graduate early because when I was in that setting, the program shifted so much that it turned from a ballet program into a more modern program, which i was still at that point like I want to be in a classical ballet company. And I did see my technique.
00:26:49
Speaker
slipping away and was like, I got to graduate and go audition if I want to make this happen. And so i was fortunate that I had been double majoring up to that point and had a ton of credits and could graduate early. and when I look at videos of myself freshman year, I'm like, yeah, you know what? I was really strong technically as a ballet dancer. And at the end, I was a different dancer. And it wasn't that I was a bad dancer, but I was just a different dancer than I had come in with. And I gained a lot of skills that did really inform the rest of my career.
00:27:18
Speaker
But again, that's like a choice that it didn't put me where I thought I was going to go, but it ended up working out in a way I think it was supposed to. of i do remember visiting colleges. I know Dad took you on several auditions, but I do remember you and I going to SUNY Purchase. okay And when you just said a minute ago you could see yourself on campus, at that campus you didn't.
00:27:41
Speaker
No. I didn't like New York. I never liked New York. like That was the thing where I was like, I don't want to move to New York City. i don't even want to be on campus here. It wasn't in new York City. It's like upstate. But even being there, I was like, I don't know. Something about it just didn't feel right.
00:27:59
Speaker
like When I went to Grand Valley, I guess I should say, it wasn't maybe all college campuses. When I went to Grand Valley to visit, I could see myself there. Yes. I felt immediately the sense of this is where I want to be. And that's why I always tell parents and dancers to go visit because you can have an idea of a program in your head of what you think it's going to be like, but there's nothing that can compare to stepping foot in a place and just having that overwhelming sense of, oh, this is where I belong. Well, that was an experience that we had with all four children as far as visiting colleges. Like there were some where you felt the right vibe and others where you didn't.
00:28:35
Speaker
And I feel like that was what happened when you got to Missouri Contemporary Ballet. It just resonated. Yeah. So I feel like that's an encouraging thing for parents to understand is like follow your dancers lead on where they feel the right vibe and the right resonance, the atmosphere, the teachers, the students.
00:28:52
Speaker
Be cognizant of that because they are the one who's going to be living there. And they need to be able to make it work. Because again, you are dealing with people that maybe are not even legally adults yet, but they do know themselves and they know where they feel good dancing.
Parental Support and Holistic Development
00:29:07
Speaker
So let them be the lead on that part of it. Yeah. I hear a lot from parents who are worried that they're either not doing enough or they're doing too much or they're just like not really sure if they're making the right decisions. In a lot of careers, there's a more straightforward path, right? Like if you're going to be a doctor,
00:29:25
Speaker
You have to go to undergrad. you have to go to med school. You have to do all these steps to get to being and attending. If you're going to be a dancer, the options are a little bit more scattered and infinite. Just the idea that like there's not as straightforward of a pathway to becoming a dancer.
00:29:40
Speaker
Or the same steps you have to follow. And I guess I'm curious if you ever questioned whether we were making the right choices or if you worried about the kind of guidance you were giving me.
00:29:51
Speaker
I didn't really second guess our choices because when I saw you on stage, I knew that this was who you were. And I want to say that to parents too.
00:30:01
Speaker
Spend as much time as you can watching your child dance because it is, I miss it so much seeing you dance. I loved it. To feel the audience energy when you stepped on stage. Don't take that part for granted. I just want to tell them while they have their dancers at home.
00:30:16
Speaker
And if they do move away, do what you can to get there to see them perform because it's such a special thing. Looking back on what I would do differently, i think I would have not taken things so seriously At the studio level, there's always a little bit of drama because you're dealing with dramatic artistic people.
00:30:38
Speaker
And I would have understood better that dance time is not the same as real world time. When a dancer says we're going to be at rehearsal for two hours, that might mean four.
00:30:49
Speaker
you know It didn't come together. We needed more time. I would have been a little bit easier on you and myself and probably everybody else. I wouldn't have taken things so seriously and felt like it was the end of the world if you were hurt or that weren't cast or whatever. It was important. In retrospect, it was important to help you grow as a whole person because growing as a whole person spiritually and physically and mentally was going to help you be a really good dancer.
00:31:17
Speaker
Because you were going to be a healthy person that stepped on stage. And you were able to absorb all of the choreography and the direction and handle everything else that was happening in your life if you had that support. So that part, I feel like we did right.
00:31:32
Speaker
We tried to do right. But sometimes we got overwhelmed just by life and a busy family. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to go back and be gentler for everybody's sake. That's such a good point. I feel like as a parent...
00:31:44
Speaker
It starts to feel like your kids' emotions can be so big that they become yours. Yes. That is definitely good advice to like try to be that calm in the storm instead of jumping in with them because everything they're feeling, you feel it. Isn't that actually a real physiological thing like when you've had a child? you're always connected to them. So you actually feel it in your body, their sadness and the fear and all of those things. And so what is your advice for parents to be able to sort of have that layer of, of course, I empathize with you, but, you know, be able to hold the space for them?
00:32:19
Speaker
I believe that it's important for you as a parent to have your own habits and your own support systems. However that works for you, if that's your friends that you spend time with that are outside of the dance world, if it's your faith, if it's your job, or if it's a volunteer position that you do, to have your own well-rounded life.
00:32:41
Speaker
so that you can keep perspective for your child's sake. I know for myself, I was living vicariously through your ballet career because I thought it would have been so cool to be a ballerina.
00:32:53
Speaker
So that's why I got super involved and over-involved at some points. I have a husband who's an engineer, and he's very practical and very logical, and that was helpful if you can find somebody to be your counterpoint. The other thing that's important, I feel like, is that you need to let the dance...
00:33:09
Speaker
instructors be the dance instructors. Most parents don't have professional dance experience as a dancer, so they need to leave that to the instructors, I feel like. However, you know your child, so be your child's advocate as a person, but you don't have to be their advocate as an artistic director or a school director. Those jobs are already taken. You can let that go.
00:33:33
Speaker
i do remember one time when you got hurt, that more serious injury when you were in the golf cart, you got pretty depressed after when you couldn't dance that summer. Yeah. I realized at that point that your whole personality was wrapped up in dancing and that you really were having a hard time seeing beyond the spot you you were in. And that was another reason that we kind of realized you need to have things in your life that bring you joy besides dancing.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah. Because I went through that too when I had mono the following year. Right. And I was out for an entire month at least. Yeah. month of school, probably more of dance. Those moments, I guess, yeah, having those major injuries and illnesses.
00:34:10
Speaker
did help kind of have that realization that like, oh, without this, I don't really know who I am or what I do with my life. And that was another like a light bulb moment telling me, okay, maybe I need to make sure that I'm experiencing other things in my childhood.
00:34:25
Speaker
right And you said, you know, that you would get really wrapped up in things, but I actually never really thought like from my perception, you always seemed pretty hands off, like supportive, of course, always there for me and always working backstage and do all the things for the guild and you were the president and all that kind of stuff. like you were incredibly involved, but I never felt like you were the kind of dance mom who was like, run your solo again, and do that. You know, you never were like on me like that.
00:34:53
Speaker
How did you find that balance of being supportive without overstepping? i felt like it was important for me as a mom to start building an identity other than mom.
00:35:04
Speaker
So I had a lot of volunteer work that I did. I was involved a lot in the church and friends and neighbors that we did things with. It depends how old you are when you have your kids is one thing. It's an ongoing process always because life is consistently changing and you have to roll with that.
00:35:20
Speaker
Finding the balance for your child, I think means you find the balance for yourself first. You can't be an anchor or ah the North Star for them if you aren't paying attention to your own physical health, mental health, spiritual health, all those things. Your dad and I, when we had children, we said we want to have children that we enjoy and other people enjoy as well. So that when we were out as a family, we weren't disruptive. We weren't causing, didn't have people, you know, yelling, screaming, whatever. It was important to us to have a good, stable family life. And also to make sure that you guys had other people in your lives besides us. You needed other adults in your lives that could speak to your life.
00:36:00
Speaker
Sometimes that was neighbors. Sometimes that was friends, moms. That was your instructors. You each had a favorite teacher at some point who really was important to you. All those pieces go together. It's really, really hard. When you were hurt or you were upset, you're right, it does hit harder. And especially with the firstborn, you were the first of everything always. You were the first to go to school, the first to try this career, the first to drive everything. You're our beta.
00:36:27
Speaker
So yeah, it's hard. It really is hard. Just because it gets hard doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. Sometimes things are just difficult and you have to work your way through them. It is an extraordinary career. I was talking to some friends after you had graduated college, and I think it was your second job. I don't think it was Tucson. I think it was Missouri. And we were out to dinner, and the husband turned to the wife and said, you know that their daughter is a professional ballerina. Isn't that the coolest job ever? And I was like, yeah, it is really cool. But then I thought back to all the years and the blisters and the broken ankles and the toenails that fell off and the pain and the... Stinky car rides. Yeah. Oh my gosh. The smell of backstage with all everybody's pictures. Yeah.
00:37:12
Speaker
It's a lot all in one big basket, but it was a beautiful experience. I still have moms from backstage that I keep in touch with on social media because it's like you're in the trenches together. You got to get this production out. And we were all learning how to be backstage moms at the same time. We were learning how to do props and sew costumes and do the quick change.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yes. And I remember that I only had, would only let you do my quick change or Mrs. Tull. So if you were watching the show that night, i guess I was a bit of a diva about that. But I was like, in that stressful moment, you were the ones, you just hold out the costume.
00:37:45
Speaker
You know, i just rip it off. Always kept me very calm. And I was like, okay, I got to make sure I have one of these moms backstage. And
Learning and Communication in Dance
00:37:54
Speaker
Mrs. Tull was one of the moms that I did go to for advice. She was always very steady presence.
00:38:00
Speaker
and just a great person. Yeah, she was and beautiful daughters. There are those people. If you're accepting the fact that you don't know everything, then you can ask questions and learn.
00:38:12
Speaker
If you go into the situation as a parent thinking, I got this, I know everything there is to know about this, you're going to miss something because you can't know everything. This is a very unusual world.
00:38:22
Speaker
And it's such a small world. The people that you have had on your podcast that you knew from all different stages of your career because you keep crossing paths. It's fascinating, really. I know. So often i will interview someone and then we're talking and we know someone else from some other, it's like there's always a few degrees of separation between almost everyone.
00:38:42
Speaker
right Everyone's worked with everyone. It's a very insular world. And I was just saying to another teacher at the school the other day about how important I think it is for my kids and kids in general to have other authority figures in their life who they can learn from and hear from because – You need to be able to have other adults in your life, I think, who can give you advice and give you wisdom and be able to – like as a parent, I need that. I think that's so important. I can't be the only one who teaches my kid everything. I see how much Ollie's learned at kindergarten this year. He has an amazing kindergarten teacher and he comes home and teaches me things that I never knew about, academic or emotional.
00:39:23
Speaker
He's teaching me all these really amazing things. And I'm like, I'm so glad you have these people in your life who are there. So I think that's such good advice to make sure that you are finding the people that can be a steady presence in your kids' life and then trusting them. Because I feel like there was a point where I saw my dance teachers more than I saw you.
00:39:42
Speaker
oh my gosh. During the pandemic, I was cleaning out files. And i don't know if you remember, we had that giant calendar that was on the back door. It was a muddled door. So I had this giant calendar on the back. Yep.
00:39:53
Speaker
And every child had a different color of ink to map their activity. So it was, you know, analog, paper calendar, different colors of ink. And you would be at school from 7.30 to 2.30, and then at dance from 4.30 to 9.30. And then you would come home and do homework till midnight, sleep five hours, six hours, get up, do it again. it was amazing. Dancers are incredible, their level of stamina and time management. I mean, any employer out there who wants to know if they can hire somebody who's reliable. And yeah, it's incredible. I always say that. I think like dance dancers have a whole different idea of what it means to be a good employee.
00:40:28
Speaker
Yes. Our level of where we're at with that is just, we'll do it in anything. It doesn't matter if it's a dance career or my waitressing job, you know, I'm going to bring that same level. Yes. One waitressing job, you had a huge menu to to memorize and you were like, yep, I got this. No big deal. I had to make flashcards.
00:40:46
Speaker
I couldn't believe it But It makes sense. If you have to memorize choreography every day, you do that every day for three hours. Those skills are transferable. That was amazing. Let's pause this episode and take a moment to talk about something that can feel incredibly complicated for aspiring dancers and artists, navigating the US visa process. Whether you need an O-1, P-1, or P-3 visa, having the right guidance is crucial.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:42:21
Speaker
Is there anything that you think matters way less than parents think in those formative years? Like what do you think parents need to kind of let go of? And then what are some things that you think are the most important for parents to maybe focus on? What's least important but seems most urgent is some of the drama that goes on in your early training when you're at a studio.
00:42:45
Speaker
If you are able to separate yourself from that and help your dancer – keep their perspective in that. It'll help everything. It'll help your relationship. It'll help their relationship with their instructors. It'll help their dancing. Because like you just said, you were in that environment more hours a week than you were with me. You were home, but you were sleeping. I didn't see you.
00:43:06
Speaker
So... If you can keep the perspective of it's important and my child loves this, but it's it's just ballet. It's not the tragedy or of the ecstasy that I think it is. So I think other people's opinions of you as a parent or them as a dancer, really not so important.
00:43:22
Speaker
It's harder now because of social media and there's more opportunities every day for hours to compare yourself to people. But that's an important thing. The things that are out of your control, I read somewhere that you can make a list of every single thing that's stressing you out and then cross out all the ones that you have no control over. The list that is left, take one action on each of those things.
00:43:45
Speaker
That's good. As a parent, I honestly feel like as long as your child is safe in their studio and in their situation, your opinion about how things are run is really not pertinent.
00:43:59
Speaker
You know your child best. Your child's instructor knows the dance world the best. Put your energy where where it needs to be for your child. I had a parent at MCB who told me that one of her like personal rules was if she ever had something that she, maybe not complain about is the right way to say it, but that she had suggestion for or something that she didn't like how it was running, she said, i always have to have a solution.
00:44:25
Speaker
So I'm never going to come to you with a problem unless I have a solution that I think could work and that I'm willing to help you with, which I loved. There's things that maybe you just can't see because I do agree with that. Also, as a dance teacher, I know that like you're doing so many things. Sometimes you miss things. So that kind of communication style was great because she would say, hey, I think maybe this isn't working as well as it could.
00:44:47
Speaker
Could we try this? Here's what I can do. And then that made me, first of all, really open to criticism because I was like, okay, here is a solution. Not just like someone complained to me about whatever it was that day. and then the willingness to help and realizing, recognizing that dance teachers and studio directors are doing so many things and saying like, I don't want to put more on your plate, but can I help you? And here's exactly how. So it's not like an ambiguous offer. Yeah. Right. That was really great. I always think about that and I try to do that in my life too now. That was a really good lesson. And I feel like you also did that. Maybe you didn't say those words to me, but I feel like I saw that in you as well.
00:45:28
Speaker
That's an extraordinary lesson. i I appreciate that mom taught you. I'm going to carry that with me too. I'm thinking more of the years that you were in pre-professional because once you got to college, I wasn't really involved so much in those decisions. We were there for you if you were injured maybe or if you needed us, we were available to you. but Yeah, if you're dancers in college, don't call their director.
00:45:48
Speaker
Yeah, please don't. I remember there being a thousand ways to help at your child's studio, especially backstage. So if you can't be there, if you work, you know, 40, 50 hours a week, your physical presence is going to be a challenge, but you can offer to provide food. There's a thousand things you can do.
00:46:05
Speaker
I love that idea of make a short list of things that you are good at that you could offer as a service to your child's studio. If you want to be involved one year, I only did the studio that you were at. They began the competition team and They needed someone to coordinate communications for that. So I did the email list and I wrote out the emails and I said, this is where we're going to be this weekend. And this is when you need to be there. And yes, you really do need to be there two hours ahead of time, even though it doesn't seem like you should.
00:46:33
Speaker
And that was something I could do for my house that. was helpful. So there's always a way to be helpful. And now there's even more ways because there's social media accounts to run and you could be in charge of that. Yeah. So the most important thing, I guess, is really to listen to your child, be there for them, understand that they need a wide experience of things and all that they have will bring more to their dancing and really enjoy their performances when they're on stage. They know you're there. They really do. And they feel that.
00:47:07
Speaker
So just enjoy it. You'll miss it when it's done. That's for sure. Yeah. One thing that I think that we got better at over the years was, i guess, listening to each other. i feel like I remember conversations when I was younger and where we both just were like not feeling like the other person was hearing what we were saying and we got frustrated. And I feel like as I got older, we got a lot better at actually like listening and acknowledging and then giving the perspective. And that just helped – I think, our communication so much. Sure. If you're in this this world and like you said, it's you're making decisions really young. You're having to make decisions for your very young child who's trying to become an adult all of a sudden and you're like, but you're still a my baby. like You were just born. How is this possible? And I think for dancers to remember that, like for your parents, this time has gone by in a flash. So you feel like you're in this place where you're ready to go away. And maybe you are, but your parents are still, they still see you as this like little three-year-old sometimes where they're like, I remember you running around the house in your tutu and now you're doing this and it's hard for them. So remember that perspective, I think is always helpful to like give your parents a little bit of grace to realize they're kind of going through it.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think that description you said when we were having trouble listening to each other, i had a ah realization that time when you're trying to help your child decide about their career choice is developmentally an area where they are trying to break away from you. Like it's a very normal process that happens with teenagers. The communication sort of falters.
00:48:38
Speaker
So that's another layer that you have to remember. All parents of teenagers are going through something like this. You've just added a whole other career choice on top of it. be patient Everybody be patient with each other as much as you can.
00:48:50
Speaker
And yes, I love that idea that we did get better at listening to each other. we got better at listening to what was being said and what wasn't being said. There was some realization and revelation in that too. Yeah.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. You're very good at asking the right questions of like, you you always ask me, what are you really worried about here? That's one thing you always ask me because I think I'll call you sometimes with lot of concerns and you're like, what is the real deep fear or concern? And that usually unlocks something that I didn't even realize the surface. Right. Because you're trying to distract yourself from what it is you're afraid of with a whole lot of other discussions of things. And art is tricky. Dance is tricky.
00:49:28
Speaker
I mean, it is. it's It's a whole world of people expressing themselves through movement and That sometimes means you don't express yourself that great with words. ah You've gotten used to using your body and maybe not spending as much time understanding yourself with words or you're helping your parent understand yourself or helping your child.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah. when you were in these all these discussions and all these situations did you have a sense of what else was happening around in the family no and that's another thing that i meant to say is that i feel like i was very egocentric which i think a again is a normal thing for a child or a teenager You're just in your own little bubble.
00:50:11
Speaker
There was a few things that happened that helped me a lot. i remember when I was in college, my communication was trash, and I would only call when I was having a bad day. And finally, you said to me, you can't just call me only when you're having a bad day because now I just think you're having a terrible experience and you're upset all the time because that is the only picture I have of you at school.
00:50:34
Speaker
And the majority of my experience was greats. But I was, one, only calling you and I was upset. And then you were like, when you call me, can you please say, is this a good time to talk?
00:50:47
Speaker
Because i would just call you and immediately launch into my speech about what was ever bothering me. And you were doing 10 other things at the time. It wasn't a good time for you. And also, if you call me when you're upset, then can you please call me later and tell me the resolution and close the loop? Because I'm just here worried. I'm sitting here worrying and worrying and worrying about this problem that you called me about.
00:51:11
Speaker
Well, you've moved on. And it's still sitting with you. So I thought that was really good advice. That was probably, and I feel terrible saying this because I was in college. So I was 18, 19 years old. But i feel like that was the first time that I thought of you, my mom, as a person with a life outside of being my mom.
00:51:27
Speaker
That makes sense. And it was like, oh, she has other things she's doing. She has other stuff that's going on in her life. Like she's worrying about me when I'm not calling her. Like it just didn't really occur to me before then. So that was really helpful.
00:51:42
Speaker
And then I feel like the other part of it was just having my own kids because that emotional part of it, I think, that really helped when you talked to me through that. And then – Once you have kids, then the logistical part became so much more clear. Because i remember asking you questions more recently like, how did you pick me up from ballet at 9 p.m. when you had an infant? Like, how did you do bedtime? Like, all these things that I never even considered or even worried about at the time. It's now amazing to me that you got me to all my classes. Dad traveled a ton for work. Like, you were –
00:52:12
Speaker
often solo parenting for children. And he was out of the country, like at least a week out of every month. right So now looking at that and just seeing, I always knew how much he did for me, but I don't think I realized how much of your own personal time and sanity you sacrificed to get me to ballet and to get me to this place. And to answer your question, I did not have a sense of like this whole family is trying to operate and my siblings, all of activities they're trying to do and my parents were Maybe you want to go on a date every once in a while and see each other and have a conversation.
00:52:46
Speaker
i just was focused on myself. And I don't know that that's abnormal, but I think for parents, maybe you have to actually say it to them. I'm a human being who has thoughts and feelings too, you know, and could you please ask me how my day is sometimes?
00:52:59
Speaker
Because for some reason, it's just not intuitive to a kid. Egocentricity is absolutely a normal developmental thing happening. And that goes back to what we were saying before about having your your own tribe, your own people, your own crew. I could call a neighbor and say, can you come sit for 20 minutes while I go pick up Caitlin?
00:53:16
Speaker
My next door neighbor would come and just everybody else would be asleep, but she could just be there in case there was some problem. You have to build your your network. as much as possible. And because you mentioned before that I wasn't a dance mom that was pushing you beyond your comfort level as far as what I was in charge of, I don't think that that's my personality, but other parents have different personalities. So that might be something they have to work through or work with. A lot of people will use control of a situation to relieve their anxiety.
00:53:48
Speaker
If I can control this person, if I can control this situation, if I can control this teacher, then I won't feel so anxious about the unknowns that are coming up. So if that's something that you struggle with as a parent and you're feeling like it's not helpful, it's not being useful in your world, then maybe it's just something you have to work on. Yeah, and I think as a dancer, well I think as a human, we don't want to be in the messy middle. We want resolution to things. And as a dancer, most of your career exists in the messy middle.
00:54:15
Speaker
You have 95% rehearsal, figuring things out, dress rehearsal, things go terrible, costumes are falling off, people forget their steps, and then you have a show, it all comes together. And that's the resolution, but that's such a small part of it. So you have to get comfortable living in that uncertain space. Yes, it's very ambiguous. And isn't it amazing the amount of...
00:54:35
Speaker
hours and hours and hours that you devote as a dancer for that performative experience that lasts two hours, two and a half hours.
00:54:45
Speaker
You might be on stage 30 minutes of that. It's mind boggling, really. It's an amazing world to be a part of, any artistic endeavor to me. But ballet is a sport and an art at the same time. And what dancers can achieve with strength and flexibility and musicality to me is it's just beyond understanding. I i just love it so much. This question came from Instagram. mom How long did you keep all my old pointe shoes and costumes from a dance mom? The pointe shoes, once they were dead, they had to go because they you wore those suckers out.
00:55:20
Speaker
yeah I don't keep any pointe shoes. Although when I was a little girl in second grade, there was a rummage sale on my street and somebody had a pair of pointe shoes and I bought them and hung them on my bed. My mom thought I was a nut. They weren't used, but anyway, that's another story.
00:55:35
Speaker
I saw at the pointe shoes that Julie Kent signed when I was in Corsair. Yeah, I mean, I never get rid of those. They were my shoes. Oh, she signed your shoes? Oh, that's true. Because we had for your graduation, we had a pair your pointe shoes in a shadow box. So that's probably one. So we have a a few, but not the hundreds of pairs I've worn. The costuming, there's still costumes, I think, in my guest room. I know there's some for your sister, and there might be one or two. I think I tried to give you most of yours when you got married. and got i would say Steve always jokes every time you come visit, something shows up in one of our closets.
00:56:09
Speaker
but You just bring another box of stuff. So yeah, as soon as I had space, you started bringing my costumes to me, but you saved them. Decades, we kept the costumes.
00:56:19
Speaker
Okay, mom, last question, and you know it's coming. if you could give dance parents whose children are pursuing their professional dance career one piece of advice, what would you tell them? Enjoy the joy of your dancer while they are in this process and educate yourself on the dance world. so that you can be a guide for them with information and not fear and offer to help people in ways that don't completely deplete you because you do need to be there for your dancing. Great advice, mom. You always have the best advice. Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate this. and this was a really fun and interesting conversation. Like I feel like a lot of these things we've never really talked about. I enjoyed it. i enjoyed thinking about getting ready for this discussion and I enjoyed having it and i just am so proud of you I'm so proud of what you're achieving in the dance world that you're expanding your influence in a way that is so necessary and I hope people really understand that they can take advantage of it it's hard won you know those those experiences are hard earned so true you're making me cry mom I love you i love you love you proud of you tell you mom thank you for this thank you
00:57:36
Speaker
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00:57:49
Speaker
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00:58:02
Speaker
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