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96. Penny Saunders on the Moment She Finally Called Herself a Choreographer
35 Plays2 hours ago
Penny Saunders is an absolute force in the dance world and a choreographer every dancer dreams of working with. But before she was a choreographer, she was a dynamic performer dancing with companies including American Repertory Ballet, Ballet Arizona, MOMIX, Cedar Lake, and Hubbard Street Dance Chicago.
She is now an acclaimed choreographer who has created works for companies including Grand Rapids Ballet, Hubbard Street, Cincinnati Ballet, Whim W’Him, Pacific Northwest Ballet, Parsons Dance, Oklahoma City Ballet, BalletX, Sacramento Ballet, The Royal New Zealand Ballet, Tulsa Ballet, Diablo Ballet, Dayton Ballet, Eugene Ballet, ArtEmotion/Ballet West and Seattle Dance Collective, among others.
In this episode, Penny shares how her early training shaped her independence, and what it really looked like to transition from a classical dancer into a contemporary artist. We also dive into her evolution as a choreographer, the moment she finally claimed that title, and how motherhood has influenced both her creative process and career.
Key "Pointes" from this Episode:
- Training at Harid Conservatory and how dance fostered independence at a young age.
- Her transition into a professional career with her first job at American Repertory Ballet.
- Navigating the transition from classical ballet to contemporary dance.
- The story behind one of her favorite performance experiences and falling in love with her husband.
- Taking the leap into choreography at Hubbard Street Dance Chicago.
- Overcoming imposter syndrome and growing into the identity of “choreographer”.
- Balancing motherhood with a demanding dance career and why it matters for children to see their parents pursuing fulfilling work.
- Adapting choreography across different companies while staying true to her voice.
- An inside look at her current commissions, including Romeo & Juliet with Diablo Ballet and Sherlock Holmes co-produced by Ballet Idaho, Grand Rapids Ballet, and Nashville Ballet.
Connect with Penny:
INSTAGRAM https://www.instagram.com/pennyfix/
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Let’s connect!
MY WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Schedule your complimentary career consultation: https://www.thebrainyballerina.com/career-mentoring
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
00:00:00
Speaker
And I'd been in the company a couple of years and i i kept chickening out. And then finally I was like, just do it. Let's do it this year. And then I did it every year after. it was frightening, especially around those kinds of peers. They were all exposed to the same brilliant choreographers and very creative people. And my challenge was getting over that, the imposter syndrome a little bit of allowing myself to step in the front of the room and say, okay, I'm going to make something because I have something worth saying.
Caitlin Sloan Introduces the Brand New Ballerina Podcast
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Guest Introduction: Penny Saunders
00:01:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Penny Saunders. Penny is really an artist that needs no introduction, but I'm going to share a small part of her bio with you anyways. Penny danced professionally with American Repertory Ballet, Ballet Arizona, Momix, Cedar Lake, and Hover Street Dance Chicago. she has choreographed pieces for Hover Street.
00:01:28
Speaker
Cincinnati Ballet, Wim Wim, Pacific Northwest Ballet, Parsons, Oklahoma City Ballet, Ballet X, Sacramento Ballet, the Royal New Zealand Ballet, Tulsa Ballet, Diablo Ballet, Dayton Ballet, Eugene Ballet, among others. I could go on and on and on. She is also the recipient of the 2016 Princess Grace Choreographic Fellowship and is the resident choreographer at Grand Rapids Ballet.
00:01:52
Speaker
So Penny, you have such an impressive resume. Before we get into all of your experience, I would love to hear from the very beginning, why did you take your very first dance class?
Penny's Early Dance Journey and Training
00:02:02
Speaker
I love this story. Well, ah my mom just figured it was something I should do, i think. Yeah.
00:02:08
Speaker
And she needed some help babysitting. I think she just needed that hour off. So she put me in a dance class. I think I wasn't even three yet. i was It was like a birthday present when I was turning three. Not any purpose at first. And then i just really loved it, I guess. And my teachers were telling her from a young age that I had talent and discipline or whatever the things were. And she said, okay. But she wasn't a dancer. Nobody in my family was an artist at so. It wasn't like a planned event. It's a happy accident.
00:02:38
Speaker
What was your training like growing up? Yeah, from there, I was in schools that did some competition. you know, i studied jazz and tap and acro. and And then I was creating lyrical solos and ballet solos and duets with my best friend. And, you know, so I was just sort of being creative, learning all kinds of movement and competing. So performing a lot with this little dance troupe.
00:03:02
Speaker
And it wasn't until I went to Harrod Conservatory when I was 13 for high school that it got more formulaic and a little more strict and contained with it being ballet. I was also going to summer programs by then, SAB and CBYB.
00:03:17
Speaker
So yeah, i was almost sort of ah squeezing the fun out a little bit. The habits that come from performing in a competition kind of way. i was having to work on getting that out. It just got more strict, more disciplined in the realm of ballet, which I loved.
00:03:33
Speaker
And wasn't until later that I realized I needed to go back a little bit. You know, I wanted to make that a bigger range. Yeah, so then I went to the Herod Conservatory. I graduated a little bit early so that I could start my first job with American Repertory Ballet. And I went there because i had met a teacher at Herod, Elizabeth Carroll, who I just fell in love with. And she was a teacher up there in Princeton, New Jersey. So i was able to get a traineeship and continue taking classes from her in the evening. So that was my way of continuing to educate myself.
00:04:07
Speaker
And I just sort of told my parents, i'm going to go live in this lady's attic and dance in New new Jersey. And luckily they said, okay. Yeah. And then the rest of, you know, my training kind of came from just being in the dance world. I never really took modern or contemporary and, you know, and it just became part of the rep experience as I was going along that directed me. So at 13, how did you choose Herod?
00:04:34
Speaker
I had a fellow student that had gone to Herod from my little school, my little competition school, a couple years ahead of me and she was kind of my idol at the time I was like oh that's the ballerina want to be and she went to Herod and Herod was about an hour I think from where we lived so it was still in the same state I was moving there I had to live in the dorms and so at 13 that's a big decision and again I just told my parents this is what I need to do sorry yeah
00:05:04
Speaker
And luckily, I got enough of a scholarship that ah we didn't have to argue much about it. And I knew it was my dream. And you mentioned the discipline of a school like here. And were there any other experiences that you had there that prepared you for your professional career?
00:05:17
Speaker
You know, there was, i don't want to speak ill of the school, but I think a lot has changed since then. and I feel like I kind of grew my backbone a little bit there just because it was tough and there were things that are, you know, no longer practice probably like weighing girls. And i remember some of my friends, you know, were told to,
00:05:38
Speaker
go audition for Disney because they'll never make it as a ballerina. And they were good, you know. So i remember thinking, this is not cool, you know. I needed to stay and I needed to graduate because I didn't know where else I could fit at that point in my life that my parents would be able to support and financially and thated that, and I wanted to dance. so i was like, okay, so I'm going to navigate this system. But I remember standing up for my friends and I remember thinking this can't be the way it is.
00:06:06
Speaker
i made a lot of outside friends. That was really wonderful for me to see, to get out of my little bubble as a young dancer and realize that people come from all kinds of different places and there's all kinds of different teachers. And I was exposed to a lot and met a lot of people that I'm still you know friends with today and probably set up my sense of you know empathy or wanting to do something a little bit less rigid as I you know grew into this role that I am from an early age. Yeah, I noticed that's not cool.
00:06:40
Speaker
What was your transition like when you started your professional
Transitioning to a Professional Dance Career
00:06:43
Speaker
career? How did that go for you? It was scary, but I was always so determined. i don't really know what bug I had.
00:06:51
Speaker
But again, I just sort of told my parents they were divorcing and I think were kind of a hot mess at the time. And I was just like, this is what I'm going to do. so don't worry about me. And, you know, I just started being independent. I felt comfortable in Jersey because of the teacher that I had already met at Herod. And so i was kind of under her wing a little bit.
00:07:11
Speaker
And then I had also met another young dancer who was my best friend at the time, Aaron Mahoney, who went on to dance with Washington Ballet and other places, but we were both 16. Her family lived around New Jersey, but they kind of adopted me in a way. So I had this pretty quickly. I made friends and it just felt okay. But i I was frightened at first. I thought, what did i do You know, I miss my mom. I suddenly had to drive all over the place and Jersey's got weird turning circles. And, you know, it was all stressful.
00:07:41
Speaker
But then the work in the studio was awesome. I had a ah lot of beautiful artists around me. And Satine Weber at the time, the director, was just so much fun. And we were creating nonstop. And I loved it. That was the part that just lit me up.
00:07:55
Speaker
And I sort of fed my creative juices. And I think that's probably part of the reason I started making things too later on. It was just so fun to make something new.
00:08:06
Speaker
And it was it was a great group and we toured a lot. And I had the time of my life. I did a lot of things I shouldn't have done probably at 16, 17, 18, because all the other dancers were older. But, you know, I had dance to sort of pull me back in line when I needed it.
00:08:20
Speaker
And my parents didn't whole know a whole lot of what was happening, I guess. But they didn't need to know. Like, I just decided to be independent from a very early age.
00:08:31
Speaker
Over the course of your career, you've danced with so many different companies. Can you talk about how you found yourself transitioning from more of a classical ballet company to more contemporary companies?
Shifting from Ballet to Contemporary Dance
00:08:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I just, like I said, I think the creative part of it was more intriguing to me. I loved doing the classics. It was great. You know, we would do our swan legs and we would do our, you know, Nutcrackers and Sleeping Beauties. And it was fun doing the variations. But even in high school,
00:09:00
Speaker
My favorite parts were figuring out how it was going to end if it didn't go well. I was one of those people that could figure it out, you know, physically and just finish it however I needed it to finish. And no one seemed to stop me because I was i was making decent choices.
00:09:17
Speaker
so that always interests me. So I think I want to say I got bored, but once I... Was in American Repertory Ballet for four years. I was making a lot of stuff. And that was my favorite part of the process. And then I went to Ballet Arizona, did some more classics. But then the same thing, when when guest choreographers came in, that was my favorite part, ah finishing their sentences. So then this is, yeah, maybe not a moment that I'm most proud of, but a boyfriend that I had. was interested in moments. And i was like, oh, okay, sure, cool.
00:09:48
Speaker
And he went to dance with them and I was still at Ballet Arizona. And then they needed someone to do this point solo. They don't typically have dancers on point. And I went out to visit him or something and I learned it and and they offered me a position touring on this one show. And i remember thinking,
00:10:08
Speaker
sure, why not? You know, like I could, I had a job at Ballet Arizona if I wanted to continue. And I remember talking my director, E.B. Anderson then, and he's like, are you sure you want to go join that circus? You know, and I was like, oh I don't know. And he said to me, do you know work by Natu Duato or Yuri Killian? And I was like, no. He's like, I think you'd like that one day. And he's like, I could see you go into that, but not Momix, you know? And I was like, well, I don't know. I think i'm going to go anyway. And it was multiple feelings. Like I didn't want the boyfriend to go away. And And it was exciting.
00:10:40
Speaker
But ultimately, I'm really glad I did it because I toured all over the place. I ended up doing the same show over and over again. So that got old. But it was also just so fun. And I got to see lots of different places and meet lots of different kinds of people and see theater and stage in a different way.
00:10:56
Speaker
i appreciated, you know, a different kind of storytelling. But then I started craving getting back in class because I wasn't taking class every day. I was just sort of warming myself up. And then um Cedar Lake Ensemble started. And I don't remember how I got it attached to the founding director, but it became a quick...
00:11:16
Speaker
understanding that I would be one of the founding members. She turned out to be a little bit crazy. ah And and and that that job didn't last that long. But it got me back in the studio, got me back in class, got me back feeling good about my technique and doing, you know, neoclassical slash contemporary work.
00:11:36
Speaker
But by that point, I was already obsessed with the DVDs that I had from Yuri Killian and Nacho Duato. don't know if it was because of Eve's talk. or if it was just sort of all coinciding at the same time, I became pretty obsessed. And I thought, how can I do that?
00:11:52
Speaker
How can I do that work? Because that felt to me like something that would apply all my skills. And it was just beautiful. I think I saw Hubbard Street at Jacob's Pillow, maybe. And I had a friend and and we got to sit up in the Y space.
00:12:04
Speaker
and watched a show and I was just, I was like, that's what I got to do. So i started auditioning and it took forever to get a job. But then I finally got one and i stayed for 10 years and that transition was, was epic. That was where i wanted to be, you know, i kind of put all my skills in one place. i had to let some things go ballet technique wise in order to allow a more expansive understanding of physicality.
00:12:29
Speaker
And I'm so glad for it. certainly serves me as a choreographer now. Do you have a favorite piece that you danced in your career?
Memorable Dance Pieces and Personal Connections
00:12:37
Speaker
and There are a lot of very happy to have experienced, but Petit Mort by Yuri Killian is one of the top ones for sure. That's my husband and I were partnered together and we ended up sort of falling for each other in that process. So it's always a soft spot for me.
00:12:56
Speaker
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00:13:15
Speaker
Whether you need help setting goals, planning for auditions, navigating mindset blocks, or or just having someone in your corner who gets what you're going through and can hold you accountable, mentorship can make all the difference.
00:13:29
Speaker
If you're curious about whether working with a dance career mentor is the right fit for you, i offer a complimentary career consultation so we can talk through your unique goals and challenges.
00:13:40
Speaker
Just head to the show notes to schedule your consultation and let's fill the dance career you've been dreaming about.
Venturing into Choreography and Gaining Confidence
00:13:46
Speaker
What point did you start choreographing? It sounds like you were kind of always exploring it from even a the young age, but there was there like a more structured time that you started choreographing?
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't until later that I realized, oh, I was doing this. I did this earlier, you know, as a 11-year-old making dances. And my mom says that I used to direct my little friends. No, no, no, like that. You go they there, you know. and I was always a little director. Maybe it all started early, but I didn't think I could be a choreographer. I was working with choreographers, so I don't know why it didn't occur to me that I could be one.
00:14:16
Speaker
But I always found it fun. And then while i was at Hubbard Street, they have this inside-out workshop that allows for the dancers to choreograph on their peers. And I'd been in the company a couple of years, and I kept chickening out.
00:14:29
Speaker
And then finally i was like, just do it. Let's do it this year. And then I did it every year after. as I just, I enjoyed the process. It was frightening, especially around those kind of peers. They were all exposed to the same brilliant choreographers and very creative people. and My challenge was getting over that, the imposter syndrome a little bit of allowing myself to step in the front of the room and say, okay, I'm going to make something because I have something worth saying.
00:14:57
Speaker
But it was always fascinating to me to think about how you could put something together to transport an audience. And it still is. What was that first piece you choreographed for Inside Out? Inside Out, let's see, Two Coins for the Boatman. It was like a bluegrass piece.
00:15:14
Speaker
And something I've always thought about revisiting because it had good bones, but I don't know if it was like because of my upbringing or the music that I grew up with that influenced me. And and i loved the age of the recordings I was using. And and it talked about life and death and putting the coins over your eyes so you pass over the river into the into heaven and that kind of thing, but very lighthearted in a hard subject.
00:15:38
Speaker
And I ended up using a lot of people and, you know, like all of a sudden it was just, it just kept growing because I was trying to throw my ideas out. Yeah, that was my first piece. And then luckily... I think the next year, the year after, I made a duet that got picked up by the company.
00:15:53
Speaker
And I still set that today. So just little things allowed me a little bit of confidence. And, you know, and then I started making things for the company, which was very hard for me to feel like I deserved. And it really wasn't until I was stepping out of the Hubbard Street bubble when I got my first few commissions outside in other places that I felt like, okay, I've got something to share and these people seem to like it.
00:16:19
Speaker
So let's just go with that. and But then, yeah you know, it took years for me to call myself a choreographer. I always thought I was just going to try that and try that. and And then I just realized that, okay, at this point, this is what you do.
00:16:34
Speaker
And you won the International Commissioning Project, which you said in your bio, launched your choreographic career. Can you share more about that experience? Yeah, that was still at Hubbard Street. They had this ongoing project with the second company when it existed.
00:16:51
Speaker
So that was my first commission piece. Yeah, and I won that competition. However, was in the inside, so it was kind of rigged. But yeah. But they allowed me to work with a second company, which I had a great time doing. And I made a piece called Bonobo.
00:17:07
Speaker
And that was a good level for me because they were younger than me. You know, they looked up to me because I was in the main company and they were eager to do whatever. So yeah, I made a work and that went pretty well.
00:17:18
Speaker
And then that sent me to the main company. And so and then I had something to show on reels and people gave me a chance because of Because my relationship with the Hubbard Street, honestly. What is your choreographic process? Are you more story-driven, music, phrasing?
00:17:34
Speaker
It depends. I would say it's never phrasing. It's never dance steps that send me anywhere. i get there later. Storytelling is more and more appealing. I don't know if it's my age or what my attention span.
00:17:50
Speaker
Nowadays, I'm like, eh, I don't want to use all these resources unless I'm saying and something. But initially, it was just fun to put things together, pile this and light it this way. And i was always fascinated by lighting and music.
00:18:03
Speaker
I think initially music, music's a huge part of everything. But nowadays, I have some freedom because i i mix a lot of my own stuff, either from source material or sound effects or text or, you know, so then i can have an idea and then go searching for what that sounds like, which is nice.
Innovative Projects and Personal Inspirations
00:18:24
Speaker
And then if I'm using text, especially i sit and edit for hours to figure out ah just the right dynamic of the text or what sends us into what song and and how that carries whatever journey we're on through the piece.
00:18:39
Speaker
Right now I'm creating a one-act Romeo and Juliet with Diablo Ballet, and I had my son do a bunch of recordings. He's 12, and he read from some books, you know, just what the scene was, and then he would just comment, and I'd provoke him with questions about, so what do you think about that?
00:18:55
Speaker
Well, 13 and 16, that seems really young to get married, you know, that kind of thing. And so I would use those little nuggets. And now it's through the Prokofiev that you have these little gems from my son. yeah And then it it shifts the whole perspective through a child's eyes. a legendary tragedy becomes sort of a comedy almost. That's the kind of thing that intrigues me now.
00:19:20
Speaker
I got to do a little bit of musical theater recently, and that was just fun working off a script. I love collaborating, though, if I have a good scenic designer, costume designer, and all of that makes everything much more interesting to me. I don't want to just stay on my own head, you know, the whole time. And I certainly don't think I have anything...
00:19:39
Speaker
so valuable that I can't share. Like, it's just fun. It needs to stay fun and play. And it gets stressful sometimes, but ah luckily I've been able to surround myself with awesome people and work with awesome dancers and and directors that hire me over again. So then I feel comfortable in the spaces that I'm in, try something new and Yeah, I've just been really, really lucky to feel supported. And and then my husband knows dance very well and is my sounding board. And my kids inspire me You know, everything is just inspiring.
00:20:12
Speaker
I still love it. I would love to hear more about your experience as a working mom and how you're doing all
Balancing Career and Motherhood
00:20:19
Speaker
of that. Honestly, like I remember when you were at Missouri Contemporary Ballet choreographing on us, I think that Elias was probably four or five at the time. And he was just hanging out in the studio and just, yeah he was just there. And like, he seemed very comfortable in the studio. Like he was used to being around dance and being in the atmosphere. How have you but able to continue to grow this career while doing mom thing too?
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's not easy. Luckily, my husband is awesome. He he gets it. We can organize our work together because he often coaches and sets work. So when he's gone, I have the kids full time and vice versa. It's a calendar mess a lot of the time and figuring out who's going to fly here. And sometimes I have to fly a grandparent in to watch the kids for a couple days while we're both in jobs and So it's it's just an ongoing, you know, step-by-step process.
00:21:11
Speaker
But yeah, it was it was worrisome at first because I was like, I'm going to be gone for two weeks. You know, he's only three, he's only four, whatever. But then once I got doing it, I realized what was so great about my job and the time that I spent away was that i I wanted to be home again. And for me, it was a real struggle to be home all the time when I did have a period of time where I was just a stay-at-home mom, and i I was losing my mind. And I was not a good mom. you know i was I was unable to be my best self for my kids.
00:21:44
Speaker
you know And I've had a lot of those ups and downs through parenthood. But allowing myself in this day and age, I feel like there's more room for us as women to do that, to take ownership of our own careers simultaneously to motherhood.
00:21:58
Speaker
And I met enough awesome women to go, okay, I just have to figure it out. It's just one step at a time. And I'm going to be a better mom because I'm satisfying these these urges selfishly. I'm away from them right now, but we're talking constantly and they're coming to visit me on Friday until they get to go to California. And, you know, so it's financially a bit of a burden sometimes because there's this extra stuff to do. But it's also they've been all over.
00:22:24
Speaker
as kids and they've met all kinds of people. They've seen all kinds of shows. It's a different kind of education and a different kind of life that's kind of awesome. So yeah, I stopped feeling bad about it.
00:22:36
Speaker
i always have some small moments of feeling it bad about it, but the general sense of I shouldn't be doing this left me a while ago. And now I just try to be within reason. You know, I can't disappear forever.
00:22:47
Speaker
more than two weeks, you know, and I'd have to go home or they have to come to me. And we just sort of figured it out as we went our on our way. And yeah, a supportive husband is everything. And I think we've always appreciated one another because we've taken time away from the family where when he's gone for a week, he was just at PMB setting something And everything fell on me for the week. Okay, so I got to, click you know, go turn over the Airbnb apartment. I've got to put the chemicals in the pool. I take the trash out, you know, and all is me. And then when I go, it's all him. So when we're together, it's like, ah, and we really appreciate what the other one brings to the table.
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah, mike like you how special for your kids to get to see you doing something that you love. and i think that is important, yeah. And more and more, like, as I'm aging, you know, watching my friends age or some of my family members, like, I'm just so lucky to do anything that interests me, to have that sort of fervor for what it is I spend all my time doing. So many people don't get that, and I want my kids to have that. So I'm hoping by watching us experience that, they'll figure out a way to to make that true for them as well.
00:23:58
Speaker
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00:24:19
Speaker
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00:24:34
Speaker
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00:24:50
Speaker
Head to the link in my show notes to download the Chronicle Studio app and have everything you need to build stronger, smarter dancers right at your fingertips.
Adapting Choreography Across Companies
00:25:00
Speaker
I am curious how you adapt to your choreography and your voice across all these different dance companies you work with. You have your own style, but how do you make sure you're complimenting the dancers and staying true to yourself?
00:25:11
Speaker
It's a little tricky sometimes. I think early on, I was constantly trying to get people to move like me. And I don't know how long it took me to realize that that was not going to work. Not because I was so spectacular, but I had spent 10 years in Hubbard Street transforming my ballet self into a contemporary self. So expecting people to do it in 10 days is not possible. So I made it a challenge for myself to meet people halfway. Like I want to impart some of that knowledge
00:25:42
Speaker
and concepts and other things. But otherwise, I'll just get frustrated. And they'll get frustrated and no one's going to have a good time and we're not going to make something beautiful. So, you know, before I go, I learn more about the company now. You know, I didn't always do this. and But over time, I've figured out that this is the way it works better.
00:26:01
Speaker
Like right now with this company, you know, it's a large company. They're beautiful dancers, but they're not all contemporary dancers. Some of them have more physical energy than others. i cast them accordingly.
00:26:12
Speaker
And I choreograph accordingly. And I want them to look good. I want them to feel good. So then it's just a constant sort of conversation to figure out what that language is. i like that a lot because depending on what kind of group I'm working with, it changes my movement and my instincts. And I'm quite sick of my own movement like that just comes out of me. And like I have the same...
00:26:36
Speaker
you know, sequences that pop out, the same steps. I don't want to see any of that anymore. I want to see them. And I think that's a good place to be as a choreographer or director of movement is, show me that again. How can you connect? And watching instead of turning my back to them and showing.
00:26:53
Speaker
So as I transitioned out of dancing myself, and I still try to move and I have to show things sometimes, but I really am trying to see and take and converse with whomever I'm making with so that it's as much theirs as it is mine. And you have such a massive body of work. What is keeping you excited or keeping it fresh when you're making all these new ballets? Like how many are you choreographing this year?
00:27:18
Speaker
I don't know, actually. Yeah, I had this one act at Roman and Juliet, and then I'm going to restage my Sherlock piece, which is a one act at Nashville. And then I'm making, see, probably four or five more new works in the 15 to 20 minute range for the rest of the year. Yeah.
00:27:34
Speaker
It's not always that busy. Sometimes it's more restaging. Sometimes it gets a little hard to conjure something up if I have too many things back to back. And I try to space it out, but you can't always plan these things. They need you when they need you.
00:27:50
Speaker
So then I'm kind of constantly throwing ideas out in my Google Drive. I have little, what if I did this? What if I did that? And so if I'm ever really stuck, I could go back and go, oh, yeah, let's do that. Or yeah one word or a title that puts me into it a new place. and It's amazing how much new things. There's always more to learn about anything, you know, and I think I'm just a curious person. It it is hard. If you get too busy, then you see yourself repeat and then you start to judge yourself. So I guess it's important to keep a pace. But with this job, you take it when you can take it because you never know when it's not going to come.
00:28:29
Speaker
think I just try to stay curious. And every group that I meet is different, you know, so allowing it to be different, and take more chances each time. Try something different if I can, like give myself new parameters wherever I go or try a new element of something, a new collaborator with something. Those kind of things really spark. And it could just be something simple like, I'm going to wear long skirts. What is this? What could this mean? What could this, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:54
Speaker
But it's, yeah, it's an ongoing curiosity, I think.
Finding Inspiration and Co-Producing Works
00:28:59
Speaker
Do you find that you draw inspiration from seeing other people's work or other performances? Or does that kind of like cloud your own personal movement?
00:29:08
Speaker
I wish I could see more, honestly. I love even going to see bad work. I love it because it makes me think about why it is I think it's bad or why i think it could have worked better this way. or you know, I'm very analytical that way.
00:29:21
Speaker
Going to see something and I'm like, that's way too long. I don't think we should ever do 200 missions. You know, I'm just like note taking to myself constantly. Oh, that one cue, the way they use that flashlight, you know, I'm just sort of gathering information.
00:29:34
Speaker
And so that I could rearrange it into my purpose. I think that's important. I think reading good stuff and meeting interesting people, and I think that fuels me in a way. I've heard about other choreographers that don't want to see anything. They just want to stay pure. It's boring. I don't know.
00:29:53
Speaker
And you're creating this new Sherlock Holmes Valley. Well, you said you're restaging it. So it's not new, is it? It is new. I just made it, it premiered in October. Okay. But it's a co-production. So there's three companies performing it this year.
00:30:07
Speaker
so two of the companies already performed it and Nashville's the third to to perform it in May 1st through 3rd. So I'll go there for all of April, basically, to, they know some of it because I created some of it with them, but, you know, they don't know the full product. so it's sort of a staging, but a premiere for them.
00:30:25
Speaker
yeah and you talk more about that process of three companies co-producing a ballet? That's so interesting to me in the dance world. it's happening more and more. I didn't invent it, but I see it needs to be that way from now on, I think. i mean, we're constantly short funded There's never enough money for anything.
00:30:46
Speaker
And we're all trying to do the same thing, but we don't have the same audiences, so we might as well share goods. So this worked out really well. I mean, two of the companies I'd been involved with for many years, Ballet Idaho and Grand Rapids Ballet.
00:30:59
Speaker
So they were, they're just my good friends. I'm like, I kind of had this idea. And then I was working with Nick Moore at Nashville. And I just sat with him at this and I said, I have this idea. I don't know if it's too many cooks in the kitchen. You know, can we can we maybe do it together? And he was on board. So they worked really well together. I don't know if it was because the company size or humility of the person, you know, directing the company or what, but it worked well. There was some stuff to figure out contract wise that I was able to step away from. but The fact that we had three purses investing in it, I could dream a little bit bigger, which was my goal in co-producing. I knew I didn't want to be limited to one small company budget because I needed a scenic element that was going to ground the piece.
00:31:46
Speaker
And so, yeah, we decided to do one hour and we split it evenly. They split my fee, they split all the production costs, and they I found a place that would make a scenic...
00:31:57
Speaker
piece that would fold up or like come apart into one truck. So we knew that it was able to travel right away and we're already looking at renting it to other places. And so hopefully it becomes ah something that they, i think, will repeat.
00:32:13
Speaker
year after year hopefully peacefully they'll they'll figure things out and then be able to rent it out to other companies as well for me that's fun to revisit a work especially as full as sherlock and being like 50 minutes lots of characters lots of props you know it's a dance dramedy it was one of those things hey i was like okay want to make something like this that i can keep coming back to and keep finding new sherlocks and new little storytelling devices and It's fun. So each time you stage it, does it change a little bit? Do you adjust it for the dancers you have or like decide, oh, I wish I would have done this when you see it and go, oh, I'm going to add
Current Projects and Future Aspirations
00:32:46
Speaker
that next time? Yeah, you can't help but fiddle. And I do that anyway when I'm restaging whatever work.
00:32:51
Speaker
I want the dancer to feel good. And, you know, if it means changing a a step and make it to the left instead of the right or or that prep thing, and why don't you do it with the plie here? And luckily, it's my piece, so I can do whatever I want. And I just, yeah, I want them to kill it.
00:33:06
Speaker
What's next for you? What are you excited about coming up? Well, I'm deep in this Romeo and Juliet, so it's it's coming along. It's fun. I'm in week one of five. And then a lot of smaller things. I'm going to dance Aspen again for like a third or fourth time and making it a short work. And then... Chamber Dance Project in D.C., Richmond Ballet next year. Yeah, just new people, new connections. There's a modern dance company in salt Lake City where I live that's invited me to make something. And so it'll be nice to just be home and making something.
00:33:39
Speaker
with people in my community. i like it all. I think it's awesome. And i also love being home from the in-between because then I just, you know, I feel like I deserve those breaks and i have a great time with my family. I can focus on what that is.
00:33:53
Speaker
Do you find it hard to choreograph when you're at home? Like when you're traveling, you don't have all the responsibilities of a home in between. You can maybe relax some more. Is it challenging to do both at once?
00:34:03
Speaker
I mean, I often do it both at once when they come to visit me or whatever. And and I know that I won't be able to think in a straight line, you know. So I do look forward to, you know, the times that I'm alone so that I can just ah be absorbed in what that is. And I think about that when I'm planning calendar-wise, like with this particular trip being away for five weeks, they come for the third week because I wanted to feel like I've established what I'm doing. They'll be here the whole third week, okay. You know, it might be a little chaotic, but then I'll have two more weeks before the premiere and I'll get it all together, you know. So, yeah, it's not that it's a distraction, but it's it's just a distraction. Yeah. You know, I think about all the things that I do from when my kids wake up in the morning until I start work at, if I teach a class at 930, I'm like, I have lived six lifetimes and before I get to the studio. So it's just, it is a lot. It it is a lot. And their needs come first. And, you know, so you get diverted from whatever train of thought you have going on constantly. And I'm already, you know, a little bit scattered. So it's lovely to have some quiet. Yeah.
00:35:11
Speaker
Honestly, I miss them. I miss their little faces, but it's nice to be able to concentrate on what I do. When you have free time, what do you like to do outside of dancing or choreographing? I take lots of walks and hiking, things like that. i end up going to lots of activities with my kids. My son is singing in a band for the School of Rock, and he's doing a little guitar and that delights me. My daughter loves gym and ballet and and swimming. I love swimming. Whatever. I like it all. I even like going to the grocery store, you know, except that it's really expensive.
00:35:44
Speaker
I'm trying to—or not trying to. It's just happening naturally. I think I'm— middle-aged and a little past the the middle. So now I'm thinking, okay, this is all valuable. I'm going to miss all of it.
00:35:56
Speaker
And I'm so so blessed to have any of it. so Yeah. Last question I have for you. If you could give aspiring professional dancers who are pursuing their careers or even choreography, either way, one piece of advice, what would you tell them?
Advice for Aspiring Dancers
00:36:11
Speaker
Go for it. Fear is not going to serve you in any way, shape, or form. As a dancer, as a choreographer, It's going to happen and that's okay. It'll keep you humble. But make yourself get past it. Make yourself believe that you deserve to be out there, whether it's as a dancer in a particular role or as a choreographer on the stage. When I work with dancers, if I see them timid, I get exhausted. Like I don't have time to keep inviting you to the room.
00:36:42
Speaker
I need you to be there for me and let's do something fun together. Like, so that engagement, that willingness right away will will make you have connections with choreographers. It'll make you have connections with directors. And then you just go from there. you Then you get to learn. um ah ah The sort of, you know, holding holding back, pretending, or not sure, the timidness, it doesn't serve anybody and it just slows everything down. So I think the sooner you can just be ready and willing to work in any capacity is just way more more interesting and less time consuming. Penny, this has been so fun and so cool hearing your story. If anyone listening wants to learn more about you and your work, where can we find
Connect with Penny Saunders
00:37:25
Speaker
you?
00:37:25
Speaker
I mean, I have an Instagram at PennyFix. That's probably the most that I'm current on. I am terrible at that. Otherwise, if you see my name pop up in a program, come see it. And if they have any questions for you, I'm happy to answer. Amazing. I'm so grateful for your time today, Penny. Thank you so much. Of course. It's nice to see you again.
00:37:46
Speaker
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00:37:59
Speaker
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00:38:12
Speaker
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