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The Amazing Spider-Man 2
167 Plays3 years ago
Kelen "B-Hyphen" Conley is back for the second part of our double feature and in this episode, we discuss The Amazing Spider-Man 2! And despite some great performances from Garfield and Stone, the rest of this movie is pretty much a total mess.
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Introduction to Audible's Offerings
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00:01:33
Speaker
Really? You want me to a car? What are you, a caveman? I shouldn't be here. You tie me up to go after war? I know how to help you! What are you doing? I know the grip space! I can raise that system! You can't be here right now. I'm not messing around. You can't be here right now. This is insane. Guess what? Nobody makes my decisions for me. All right? Nobody. This is my choice. Okay?
00:01:55
Speaker
My choice. This is mine. Now, how do we stop him? Okay, so he's electric. He's like a battery. So what happens if you overcharge a battery? It explodes. Right. So we use his power against him. Perfect. Okay. I think I can reconnect the power lines, but what I need you to do, I need you to reset the system. Okay, when I say you turn that power on, you turn it on. No matter what. Peter. No matter what.
Discussion on 'Amazing Spider-Man 2' Storylines
00:02:18
Speaker
Welcome back to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Well, I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And for all of you, it's been two weeks, but for us, it's only been about five minutes or so, because I'm back here with Kellan Conley, the be hyphen himself, to talk about Amazing Spider-Man 2. Kell, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm great, man. I'm happy to be here, Perry. How are you? I'm doing good, doing good.
00:02:41
Speaker
got caffeinated up after our little hiatus, got to see my daughter before she started, see her before she started crying. I got to say, got to say goodnight and I'm sitting here sipping on a tasty beverage myself. So we're doing good.
00:02:56
Speaker
Good. And so obviously no news because we, which the same day for us. But so we're just going to jump right into it and talk about the Amazing Spider-Man 2. 2014, I believe it was? 2014. You got it right, April 18th. Yeah. I'm sorry, May 2nd. That was Mexico. May 2nd is when it came out in the States. So what were your thoughts on Amazing Spider-Man 2 when you saw it?
00:03:24
Speaker
What a mess. There is so many different stories in this film that are trying to be put into one cohesive story and they don't get there at all.
00:03:43
Speaker
The Green Goblin part feels like a different film. The Electro part feels like a different film. The Gwen part are interwoven throughout all of this, which is really unfair to the story. Spoilers, everybody. Gwen doesn't make it. And then you have the May, Aunt May has his can't pay bills and is working on the side but not telling Peter thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:12
Speaker
which was really weird. And then you have Peter finding out more about his parents. And then the whole opening of the film is Mary and Peter on the plane and the plane's like a sass. Mary and Richard. Or yeah, I'm sorry. Mary and Richard's on the plane and the assassin is trying to take him out and he successfully does, but then Richard's uploading these files and on some kind of wifi plane, by the way.
00:04:37
Speaker
I mean, obviously he was deep in it, but still he's like hanging on that last minute so he can get that 100% uploaded. And then we really barely touch on that the rest of the film.
00:04:51
Speaker
It is a big old mess. There's a lot of good ideas. There's a few bad ideas and it's all shoved into one thing. Oh, and by the way, let's get Peter to graduation in the middle of this. Oh, and the rhinos here. Yeah. And then we also get a sinister sixties at the end too.
00:05:10
Speaker
Oh, a big citizen. Yeah, yeah, we're. Yeah, this, still waiting, still waiting for that. Because this was when I'm Sony was trying to do their, because after, after Amazing Spider Man right Avengers came out that same year and that's
Sony's Attempt at a Shared Spider-Man Universe
00:05:29
Speaker
Everybody realized, oh shit, shared superhero universes are the new thing now. Because you had these crossover, you didn't have a big crossover like that. Avengers was the culmination of all these introductions. So after that,
00:05:43
Speaker
all these other places are like, shit, we gotta play catch-up. So on the CW, they're like, we gotta bring in the Flash and we gotta bring in Black Canary and all this. And then DC was like, we gotta bring in Batman and Superman, have them fight. And then you had, and then you had Sony's like, well, we've got all these Spider-Man characters, let's make a Spider-Man universe.
Critique of Harry Osborn's Characterization
00:06:04
Speaker
And they tried to do all that in this movie. This was the movie that they decided we're gonna, this was a lot like,
00:06:11
Speaker
Batman v Superman in that way and that there's just so much crammed in here Yeah, yeah There's a lot man And I am one of the few people on the planet who will still say that I enjoy watching Batman v Superman I know it's bad. It has plenty of faults. I I will not argue with you But I will sit there and watch that movie from start to finish I just happen to enjoy it because apparently I hate myself
00:06:37
Speaker
But you're totally right. I do get that vibe with the amazing Spider-Man 2 where they're just like, throw everything in there. It's not going to matter. We're going to do another one here in 2016 anyway.
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, because you have you've got the whole thing with The Sinister Six because they were going to do a spin-off movie with The Sinister Six. You had Felicia as Harry's assistant because she was going to spin off until Black Cat movie. Yes, yes. And I just saw her and I completely forgot about her again that quickly, yes. Felicia was there.
00:07:07
Speaker
They were sitting the seeds for the Green Goblin, of course, because I mean, we had a goblin, but that's Harry and Harry had some weird stories like I'm dying. I need your blood. And one of the most awkward Spider-Man scenes in Andrew Garfield's career. He's like, I can't give it to you, Harry. Blah, blah, blah.
00:07:25
Speaker
He's like, you're just selfish. And I was like, man, and I, who is the dude who played Harry, man? Not a fan, not impressed, not a fan. I, um, I don't, I don't entirely blame him. It was a paycheck. And you know what they say about when they back up a truckload of money and dump it on my front lawn, you're going, you're going to do that. Uh, and that's what he did, but he did not do anything for me as Harry. So I think,
00:07:52
Speaker
You know what, I cut them a little bit of slack and I think it's mostly the script, but I think with a better script, because
00:08:00
Speaker
I love James Franco in the original trilogy. And that hurts him too, because Franco was so good. But the thing is though, Franco is such a pretty boy. And it's kind of like the thing we talked about in the first movie with Andrew Garfield. He's such a good looking guy. You can't really buy him as an outsider. I have trouble buying, as much as I love Franco's performance, and it is much better than DeHaan's, I have a lot of trouble buying the whole
00:08:30
Speaker
neglected son type thing. Yeah. Yeah. Franco has trouble, especially because he's so young in his career at that point. I mean, this is like literally right after Freaks and Geeks when he got spied up. Yeah. Yeah. So he didn't do too well in those emotional scenes, especially early in the early films.
00:08:48
Speaker
In Spider-Man 3, until he made his literal face turn, like the scene in the cafe, like after he's come back to realizing who he is and stuff, and that waitress asked him how his food is, he goes, delicious. Oh, I love that, the Pisces.
00:09:08
Speaker
That's so good. Yeah, he's eating the pie. Like, that's spot on. And then, like, five minutes later, like, Peter's blowing half his face off of the pumpkin bomb. And he's like, then he's like, oh, man, I think I want to save my friend all of a sudden. Yeah, yeah. What about Spider-Man 3? Oh, God. Franco did have some good beats in that film, but he did not carry the emotional weight of what Harry Osborn went through as Norman Osborn's son. Yeah.
00:09:33
Speaker
Now the hot I think is a much better fit for Harry as a character, but he was just given such a terrible, such terrible stuff to work with. It's so weird it's like, Norman dies, you have the same poisoning. He meets up with Peter, and they have like, they have the most awkward.
00:09:52
Speaker
hang out. It's like, hey, man, I've seen you in years. And then it's like, we're supposed to believe these two guys are friends. And it's like, it's not, it's not connecting there. At least it didn't for me. It just, it also felt so out of left field where it's like, yes. I mean, like we go through this whole movie.
00:10:09
Speaker
his dad works at Oscorp, he's in Oscorp, you know, never once is there any mention of the fact that, you know, my best friend was Harry, was Norman Osborn's son, or nothing like that. And the next, next movie, he says like, Hey, Harry, the, you know, son of Norman Osborn, who I, who I apparently was friends with all these years ago, and we just never talked about it again.
00:10:32
Speaker
Oh, man. Yeah, it was again, it just worked for the plot at the time and suddenly have this best friend even though the whole first movie involved Oscorp heavily. But yeah, I digress, I suppose. I'm going to do that a lot here. But yeah, I give DeHaan, I think DeHaan tried the best he could and it's just like, nobody could have done a good job in that role, though.
00:11:00
Speaker
You're right. I mean literally he was there to ultimately be the instrument of Gwen's death. Right. And the whatever the hell he was doing once he was the goblin with obviously had just a sharp teeth and the bouffant kind of thing going and he had the costume and everything like that.
00:11:20
Speaker
such a weird people people give venom so much crap and again in spider-man 3 and no venom was not good in spider-man 3 like they tried it didn't work but this is the whole time I sat there watching it the first time and then most recently and I'm watching that final fight and you know I know how it's gonna end and it's just like man like
00:11:44
Speaker
This this just doesn't like it just felt like let's do this real quick so that we can kill her like There were there was other ways to do it man. Like I know you want to have the classic goblin kill win thing You don't necessarily want it to be a lecture by any means. Oh, you gotta talk about lecture. Oh, yeah, but
00:12:07
Speaker
There was still between me and you, your writer, I pretend to write. We could come up with like 10 different ways they could have still gotten to that point of Gwen falling to her death without going that route and shoehorning it in in the last, like that whole scene was like what, 12 minutes maybe? Between the time the goblins showed up and Tom Gwen smacked, so. Yeah, I was rewatching it. When I was rewatching it, I'm just like,
00:12:38
Speaker
This happened so quick. I'm like, wait. And I'm like, am I misremembering it? In my head, it felt like this was a longer scene. No. But it's not. It's really, and I'm just, I was just sitting there. I'm like, I was more shocked by the fact. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, you know, even though I've seen this movie like several times, I'm just, every time I'm just like, this feels like it should be longer.
00:12:58
Speaker
I feel like, I mean, I'm like, did I doze off or something for a minute? I mean, it just, it feels like there's a whole chunk missing here. Yeah. I was going to say, I wonder if it was longer and I don't know how much the studio cut, how much it got edited out. Cause by me, I by no means have the extended version of the amazing Spider-Man 2's in here where I could see deleted scenes and stuff like that. But I wonder,
00:13:26
Speaker
I would like to see what the original plan was because that because that scene deserved to be longer. I feel like they played more into the lecture role and they were like, OK, well, we can kind of just stick this here and then everything will be cool. And it deserved way more for it to be such a pivotal character to die that way. Yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
to then just be in that quick scene. Cause the falling feels a little like lengthy, you know? And the way that eventually when it all ends and she gets to the bottom, like you feel like he's about to get her. So that's excellently done. Cause it's like, he's right there on the cusp. So it's like, will he or won't he? Will he or won't he? And so I was definitely on edge about C for that. But then by the time it's all said and done, it hadn't been any time at all. Yeah. Yeah. And
00:14:17
Speaker
And the weird thing is though, the scene with Electro, once Electro was beaten, there's such a finality to that scene that feels like the climax of the movie. And it's like this whole thing, it's like, wait a minute, did we accidentally edit in part of 3 into this movie?
00:14:35
Speaker
And they might have, because it felt like in the movie vibes. It's like, all right, they say everything's over. Let's wrap it up. Let's get everybody to the after party. And it's like, hey, Peter. Oh my god, come on. And especially because that scene when Harry goes into find the goblin suit, you could have left that as a cliffhanger for the third movie.
00:15:03
Speaker
Yes. That would have been a, that would have been a great cliffhanger for the third movie. Isn't that what they did in Spider-Man 2? Didn't Harry Fawn the stuff? Yeah, exactly. You're right. It's exactly what they did. It was the same thing. He finds the goblin equipment. One thing I will say about the goblin in this movie, though, is I like that I don't like the goblin design here, but I like that they tried to
00:15:26
Speaker
do something a little bit more organic as opposed to just the Power Rangers style mask that Willem Dafoe wore. One of the most interesting costume design choices. Every time I watch that movie, and you can see his face moving beneath the black mesh, and I'm just like, yeah.
00:15:47
Speaker
Yeah, like, how did he not know it was Norman, man? Like, look through there. I'm like, dude, Norman? I'm not Norman. I'm the green goblin. I always feel like I'm a Disney World. Yeah, Disney. But William the Foe pulled it off as the crazy part. Yeah. Yeah. Made it believable. Believable, air quotes. So I am glad they tried something a little bit more organic with the goblin in this movie.
00:16:14
Speaker
They swung for it. It didn't work, but they tried. And I like that part about it. I'm still hoping for today that I will see just whoever's playing Norman Osborn. Hell, I don't care if it's Osborn. I don't care if it's Kingsley, it's Hobgoblin. I just want to see someone slip on a classic looking goblin costume, either the purple or green or the orange and blue, and pull that ghost mask over their face and it's like,
00:16:39
Speaker
That's the Green Goblin. It's not that hard, people. I know you're like, you look stupid. Not in 2021. There's so many ways to
Jamie Foxx's Electro and Character Portrayal
00:16:47
Speaker
do it. Yeah, they could easily do it now.
00:16:52
Speaker
I mean, it's so hard to think about where to begin with this movie because like you said, there's so much going on here. Well, let's go ahead and start with, let's start with Electro Man. I was so excited for Jamie Foxx to be playing Electro because he is such a good actor and. Oscar winner. Yeah. Oscar winner Jamie Foxx delivered this performance. They, I don't know,
00:17:22
Speaker
who, I don't know where the source material for Electro is drawn from. Now, when we first meet Max Dillon, he, I mean, he worked for the power company, he had the accident, everything's in Lee's version. There was a few, I remember specifically from Ejectivless, Spider-Man in the 90s, they did this story, Lee Weeks, I think was either drawing it or something, where it was like the night story with Electro, and it showed how much of a,
00:17:50
Speaker
how down and out a lecture was when he wasn't trying to be a supervillainess. And then he got his big plan. He's like, I'm going to take down Spider-Man again. And it was like this three issue arc. But I feel like a lot of those vibes are fooled in because they made Max an absolute loser. I mean, I was watching this and the entire time I'm watching it, I'm thinking to myself, what idiot watches Batman forever, sees Jim Carrey's performance before he becomes the Riddler and thinks,
00:18:20
Speaker
That's a good superhero villain origin story. And it's exactly Jim Carrey at the beginning of Batman Forever, because he's got this weird, even to the crazy person wall with all these clippings of Spider-Man. Hey, Spider, hey, it's your birthday, Max. Thanks, Spider-Man. He's doing it in a deep voice and stuff like that.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yes. And you would, and even after that, it's like, okay, even if I hadn't bought into him being so nerdy and quirky and then having an accident after that.
00:18:57
Speaker
They could have, they could have made him so much cooler. And it just seemed like he was, he spent most his time being a dang old pawn for, for the plot, you know? And there was never really, I never felt like he was a legitimate threat. I was like, I know Peter's going to figure this out. Like, yeah. Well, also there's that whole thing with him, like,
00:19:19
Speaker
just being so cartoonishly attention-starved, right? Like when Gwen is, when he's in the elevator with Gwen and he's like, he's like, oh yeah, I've got this party and a bunch of celebrities are gonna be coming and everything. And I'm just like, why? Why, yeah. And then she gets her floor, it's like, oh, this is my floor. It was nice talking to you, Max. And he's like, she remembers my name. It's like, dude, you just told her five minutes ago. Right, right. I mean, that's common courtesy for most people.
00:19:48
Speaker
It's just. And well, even when Harry breaks him out of Ravencroft and he's like, the reason he finally agrees is because Harry says, I need you. And then he's like, you need me. Yes, that's as bad as Martha. It's like, yeah, it's like it's like, can we be best friends?
00:20:05
Speaker
Like, oh man, I can't wait to go skipping through the fields together and having a picnic and stuff. Like why, why does Max need a friend so badly? And then then for his origin to happen the way it was, he's like, he's literally leaving and he's like, you got to go fix that thing right now. Blah, blah, blah. And then he just so happens to slip and fall into electric eels. Is that what it was? Yeah. Yeah. They're like, it was like some way for, to generate electricity using electric eels.
00:20:31
Speaker
Yes. More animals, more testing at Oscorp. Way to go, Oscorp. Yeah. I'm sure your accident sign, you know, so many days without an accident, it stays at zero. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Good Lord.
00:20:49
Speaker
I did enjoy the very first scene that they shared together though with Spider-Man and Max and him saving them and everything. Because again, Garfield's outstanding as Spider-Man is in the higher film. He brings it, I think he's better as Spider-Man in this film than he was in the first film and I love that portrayal too. The costume looks amazing. Exactly, yeah.
00:21:12
Speaker
Amazing, like I saw that and I was like, oh my God, they nailed it. They nailed it. Yeah. And even the homecoming and far from home versions, obviously we got tweaks and stuff. And that's pretty true to it. But the amazing Spider-Man 2 has the spot on comic book costume. And I've never seen it look better. And I would literally just look at high def pictures of that costume because I was just so in awe of it. The one thing that I think that the homecoming suit improved on was having the expressive eyes.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yes, the eyes are very cool. And that was just such a creative way, because that's something they do in the comics, right? And it's obviously, it's comic books. You can get away with that stuff. They used to make me mad as a kid. I'm like, his eyes are attached to his mask. We're like, the one that's so stupid. Blah, blah, blah. But then, especially once I started writing this stuff, I realized that that's how you convey expression. Exactly. The face never changes. Yeah.
00:22:05
Speaker
And, you know, I always thought like, well, they'll never be able to do that in live action. And then they found a way to make it work in live action like that. It was brilliant. But other than that, like, yeah, that and especially the fact that they went with the big eyes in that. Yes. Like, I love that. That was because that was my Spider-Man growing up. Right. That was like the Mark Bagley Spider-Man with the big eyes that covered like half the face. Exactly.
00:22:26
Speaker
I only complain ahead about big eyes is when they try to give them nose holes in his mask. And I was like, you don't have nose holes. That's why he's just gonna be like, what's up? I know who you are now. Like, come on, that's a little ridiculous. The costume is great. The interaction with him and Max, though, is, again, that's who Spider-Man was. He saved his life. I mean, he had a genuine interaction with people, something that I say on my podcast all the time. It's like try out genuine interactions with people. You don't know what they're going through. Max was down in the dumps and he hated his life.
00:22:56
Speaker
Ironically enough, it ended up biting him in the ass later. Spider-Man had a genuine interaction with him. He was kind to him. And that gave Max something to go on. It gave him some hope. And it gave him a weird obsession, of course. But again, it's really cool how Garfield Spider-Man is really the Spider-Man that we all grew up with. Yeah.
Peter and Gwen's Relationship Dynamics
00:23:19
Speaker
And the fact that he remembers Max later when he becomes Electro.
00:23:23
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, that was because, like, there's not a really good explanation of how much time passes in this movie, but you get the sense that this movie takes place over the span of like several months. Yeah. Yeah. Because graduation day is when it starts. Yeah. And then she's supposed to go. Where where was she going again? She's going to go to London and in the summer course, obviously, after school.
00:23:48
Speaker
And then so by the time everything wraps up, it's like fall, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like fall. Yeah. Because the because later than that, it's like a year passes at by the end because you see both like all the seasons changing. Yes. I was going to say there was a season change in montage. So so sometimes definitely pass. But but even like even like the main the main events of this movie take place over the course of at least like it's at least been like a month between the time when he saves Max and the time when Max becomes Electro.
00:24:17
Speaker
Mm hmm. Right. It's been at like at least a month. And how many people has he saved? Exactly. Yeah. And he still takes a minute, obviously, because he saved so many damn people. Right. But the fact that he does still remember.
00:24:30
Speaker
Right. And that's something Peter Parker. Exactly. Yeah. Spider-Man remembers people. I mean, he that's the reason why he's so obsessed about about dumb stuff because he he's like, oh, I can't believe I did this. And he's always beating himself up about something. And it'd be something that anybody else would be able to look over. But that's what makes him who he is because he remembers things. He's affected by it. And he tried not to repeat his mistakes. Yeah. Just obsessive about his errors and things like that or his interactions.
00:24:59
Speaker
One thing I think this movie did too, and that made it, I think Garfield elevated his Peter Parker performance in this movie. And I think having the high school graduation helped, because it took them out of that environment. And it was much more like the college Peter Parker.
00:25:18
Speaker
you get more of a sense of the fact, because in the comic books, Peter Parker is neurotic as fuck. You say the least. Yeah. And Garfield really does a good job of capturing that, I think, in this movie.
00:25:31
Speaker
He's all over the place. He's trying to figure out what he's going to do and everything after he graduates. He's trying to figure out him and Gwen. And in the back of his mind, freaking George is just chirping. You can't be with her. You can't be with her. They break up before a graduation party. That's such a Peter move. Literally, all he had to do is just go in and enjoy the graduation party.
00:26:00
Speaker
She's like, this is about what my father said to you. I don't want you to get, and she's like, you know what? And their chemistry again is great, but I feel like, again, because their story is so interwoven in these different pieces of the film, that some of it gets lost. And then also,
00:26:19
Speaker
especially with the grand gesture on the bridge with the webs and stuff. That was super cute. I enjoyed that. But then it's like, dog, you really put a big old target on her back. A real big target. Because anybody, if Captain George Stacey can figure out who you are, I mean, you literally just wrote your love out to the woman you love on the bridge. Yeah. Maybe not your best move, Parker. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
But, you know, I'm glad you mentioned him and Gwen because this is, I think they do a really good job of handling more so than in Spider-Man 2 with the whole, because you had a very similar setup in both the end of Amazing Spider-Man and the end of the Rainy Spider-Man, where Peter decides, you know, I can't be with you because it's too dangerous. And then in the next movie,
00:27:15
Speaker
You've got them having this weird, awkward situation, but it feels a lot more realistic in Amazing Spider-Man 2 than it did in Spider-Man 2. Yeah, mostly because Mary Jane had moved away from him so much in the rainy film, and then for them to kind of conveniently get put back together by the end so that she can accidentally find out who he is. Like, he didn't want to tell her who he was. Well, plus the whole thing where he's like,
00:27:43
Speaker
because it makes more sense in Amazing Spider-Man for him to still be trying to stay connected with her and all that, because it's not really his choice to break up with her. He's trying to be the good guy and trying to honor George's wishes. But in the Raimi films, it was entirely his choice. And then he's doing this thing where he's reciting poetry to her. And it's just like, it's so bad and cringy. Right, man. He's leading her on, but he's like...
00:28:11
Speaker
He's like, oh, not too close, though. Not too close. We can't be together. I'm Spider-Man. At this party honoring her new boyfriend. I love those kind of parties when you love his honoring her new boyfriend. I felt so bad for John Jameson in those movies because he's like the best guy. Yeah. And he even says, like, you know, what about your friend Peter Parker? Aren't you going to invite him to the wedding? And then,
00:28:38
Speaker
She's like, no. And literally, the moment he lost her is when she did the upside down kiss with him. And it's like, oh, it doesn't feel the same, probably because you're not suffocating from all the rain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in this, it makes so much more sense. And their interactions feel so much real because they both want to be together, but they know there's this thing between them because of George's death and everything.
00:29:09
Speaker
It's such a, it's such a real, it feels so real. Like it feels like such a real interaction with them. I've really thought it was cool, the opening of The Maid of Spider-Man 2 with the web swinging, like the first person point of view. Like when I saw it a little bit in the trailer, I was like, oh, that looks corny as hell. But once you saw it in the movie theater and stuff, every time that's on, I will stop and watch that scene. Cause I think that's a really cool scene.
00:29:34
Speaker
And again, that's after years of us watching, Ramey Spider-Man swing through the city and does a couple of flips. And then sticks to land the next to the American flag, because Spider-Man. The first thing you think of, we think of the American flag. But to see Garfield Spider-Man be that agile web swinger and just have such fun going through the city and just
00:30:01
Speaker
barreling through there, just like we do on the video games now. Yes. Yeah. It was very cool. And it still holds up today. And they still haven't even tried to recreate anything like that in the newer Spider-Man films. They're like, oh, well, they kind of got that one right. So we don't have to keep trying to do the first person point of view. Yeah. But they nailed that opening. I really like that. They did. Yeah. And I love how his ringtone is the Spider-Man theme song.
00:30:30
Speaker
Come on, Peter. Captain George Stacy built this in a cave. And then you've got the Spider-Man ringtone on your phone. Like, oh, hey, you know, you disappear an awful lot and your ringtone is, oh.
00:30:46
Speaker
I remember some people getting pissed off. I remember one guy on social media getting pissed off about it and saying like, it takes you out because it takes you breaks the suspension of disbelief. I'm like, but they did that in the Raimi films too. You had that subway performer who was singing. Yeah.
00:31:04
Speaker
And that was classic. Everybody just laughed it off. And I mean, you know, in the Iron Man film, like they like he's playing the Iron Man theme like when they're at the casino, like the opening scene. And yeah, yeah. Like when him and rodeo on a plane with the stewardesses and they have a Ghostface Killah video playing a background whose alias is Tony Stark. So it's like, come on, guys, like that did not take you out of the movie. Yeah, complain about it. Yeah. There's plenty of other stuff that you want to complain about. Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:37
Speaker
Chris Cooper, I thought, what a wasted opportunity. Because he would have been such an awesome Norman Osborn.
00:31:47
Speaker
And to see, by the time I saw this, like Norman was the end all be all Spider-Man for me. Like it or not, main orchestrator, the Clone Saga, I was a big fan of that final fight between them, not so much what had happened in the years following, before like JMS got ahold of it and stuff. Like Paul Jenkins did some cool Goblin stuff. Yeah, yeah, the Return of the Goblin story, I just reread that recently. That was really good. Yeah, I got that back there.
00:32:16
Speaker
in fact you know I was and it had such an ambiguous ending right because it looked like he was gonna he was gonna he was gonna kill himself and especially you get that silent panel with the just the outside and the next with the birds flying you get this oh my god he shot himself right and then they bring him back and they just like oh no he didn't like oh he's fine yeah I mean that was such I think that was such a perfect ending to the
00:32:42
Speaker
the goblin story. That's one of the best goblin stories for sure. And the next thing you know, Mark Millar has Peter beat them in the head with a mailbox. And when they did Marvel Night Spider, that crazy shush story that they threw together and stuff. And then you had the dark rain stuff and all that bullshit.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah. And some of that work with Norman running the entire Marvin. No, no. I mean, I could, I could buy if it was Baron Zemo, but I cannot buy Norman Osborn in that way. His ego's way too big. Yeah. That's not what Norman wants. Norman wants to replace everybody with clone people, with goblin people. That's his main goal, apparently. But it was definitely wasted opportunity because we didn't see, did we see Norman in the first movie?
00:33:26
Speaker
Uh, no, he was only, he was mentioned. And then, and then the guy at the end, when, um, when Connors is in, is in Ravencroft, there was speculation, because that was played by Michael Massey. A lot of people thought that he was Norman Osborn because he doesn't, um, he doesn't speak. Well, he doesn't know in the credits. It's just like the man in black. Right. And it wasn't, and Michael Massey comes back at the end of this movie. Then you find out he was, he's Mr. Fears, but, um,
00:33:56
Speaker
But yeah, everybody, which...
00:33:59
Speaker
Honestly, that was a little disappointing, too, because Michael Massey also would have been an amazing Norman Osborn. Yeah, yes, he would have. So that's two missed opportunities. Yeah. But to have Norman finally be on there, and it's like, OK, so this is going to lead to goblins somehow. And I didn't know anything going in. I didn't know about who was a goblin and stuff like that. So I'm thinking for sure. I was like, all right, we're going to get a green goblin. We're going to see what this iteration is about.
00:34:26
Speaker
Especially when he had when you see his hand when he hands the the data thing down and it's like he's he's turning He's transferred and you're like and then when he dies everyone I was the whole time. I'm thinking like he's not dead He's the transformation is just fully taken over now and now he's gonna become the goblin
00:34:42
Speaker
And again, that might've been something they were going to do in another film, but they never got there. So that was definitely a loss though, because it's like, oh, Norman Osborn. And like, this is a big deal. That's like saying, okay, Batman film. Here's Joker. We're gonna kill him five minutes later. Like, why? What part did that serve other than make Harry realize he was sick and so was Spider-Man's blood?
00:35:09
Speaker
And also, like, I don't understand what Harry's urgency is because Norman Osborn is like, what, 50 or 60 in this movie? He has lived a very long life, yeah. And then he tried to tell him he had a shorter time. Like, he didn't have long. I think he did mention something about it being accelerated.
00:35:27
Speaker
But Harry immediately went into panic mode. Yeah. Yeah. And he knew that he couldn't throw money at it and fix it. So I wonder how much of the problem came from that. Because as an Osborne, he's always had money. Yeah. And then for him to not be able to just throw money at his medical issue, that'll go away. And he literally has to figure something out on his own. That became immediately frustrating for him and just showed how hot headed he was. And they're trying to show
00:35:53
Speaker
Harry's hot head aside, because obviously Harry was more of a hot head than Norman was, even with the goblin formula at its peak. Like Norman was not quick to anger. Norman was always like, okay, I'll remember that. And I'll come back and get you later. Harry was always like, he was always so emotional, because to get real deep into it, that stems from the abuse he suffered at Norman and neglect and stuff like that in comic books. Shout out to Spidey Cakesplat for writing all those articles all those years ago about it.
00:36:22
Speaker
But that's just him trying to survive after his mom died. And that's that's who he was. And then, of course, he kind of became not in the comics so much, but then him and Peter became best friends and the money and things like that. And and so that's kind of who he developed into. There was no reason for this iteration of Harry Osborn to be so quick to like, I have to figure this out now. Yeah, I have like 10 hours
Criticism of Film's Pacing and Action Sequences
00:36:48
Speaker
left. It's like, no, you probably can.
00:36:51
Speaker
Sit down and breathe for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's just the plot requires him to. Yeah, it's just that and they are just in such a rush to to get all this stuff in this movie.
00:37:06
Speaker
It's such a, it's a very fast movie. Like a lot is happening all the time. Like it's, it's nonstop. And I was thinking about that the very first half of black widows like that too. Before, like before we get to the prison and everything, it's very action, action, action, action, breathe. And it's like, okay, it's going down. It's like action, action, action, action, action. And I'm like, dang, man, this is, this is like, this is pretty awesome. And then they slow things down as the movie progressed. And this one is,
00:37:35
Speaker
where Black Widow was action, action, action, action, action with a purpose made in Spider-Man 2 was action, action, action, action, feed the plot, even if the plot doesn't need feeding. Yeah, yeah.
00:37:47
Speaker
And we also, Ed, you could tell that they, I love that we get J. Jonah Jameson in this movie, but we never see him on screen because they couldn't get J.K. Simmons back. Yes, yeah. So we did get J.J.J. But ultimately, as proven in Far From Home, there is only one person graced the screen as J. Jonah Jameson. You know, we were talking about the,
00:38:14
Speaker
two episodes ago when everybody had to talk about Logan. And we were talking about the. I didn't realize you hadn't talked about Logan or I probably didn't pick like. Yeah, we feel like crying for the next two hours. But, you know, we were talking about some far from home news and talking and he said, he's like, you know what, we're talking about Spider-Verse and all that. And and he said, he's like, I want, you know, you know, J. Jonah Jameson to be one of those constants in the multiverse where it's always J.K. Simmons in every reality.
00:38:44
Speaker
Hey, man, that'd be a beautiful thing. I don't see why not. Because when you get it right, you get it right. Yeah. That's why we're probably never going to see another Nick Fury. Like, can you imagine something that, God forbid, happens to Samuel L. They're like, OK, let's get another blackball dude. Like, no, man, it's got to be Samuel L, man. You don't like this and everything. Like, it's only right. It's only right, Marvel. Well, actually, they got permission to do his likeness.
00:39:14
Speaker
They asked, they had to ask him and he said, he said, I'll do it if you agree to let me be Nick Fury in the movies. That was the deal. Yeah. So a little, little Easter egg for you guys in case you're wondering how we got here.
00:39:28
Speaker
That was a very cool idea, obviously. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You know what, also, I really liked, even though her story just seems to go nowhere, I did like Sally Field's Aunt May in this movie. Yeah, we didn't talk too much about Sally Field in the first one. She, I, as much as I love Rosemary Harris as Aunt May, and she was the perfect elderly Aunt May, and she was like, oh, Peter, I have two quarters to rub together, please take me. It was perfect for,
00:39:58
Speaker
for the Raimi films. She brought a lot of Ultimate Aunt May to the table because Ultimate Aunt May is a badass man. Any kind of shit. Permission won until today she cradled Peter in her arms and at the culmination of the series man she took no shit from nobody and she took the punches and she rolled with them and she was
00:40:19
Speaker
Even with Ben passing everything, man. Like, she wasn't anybody who really let the world beat her down, man. She was very headstrong. And Sally Fields' portrayal of Ant-Man that got a lot of that. Now, do I agree so much with the hiding from Peter that they don't have money? I mean, I'm sure Peter knows that they don't have that much money anyway. Yeah.
00:40:42
Speaker
They live in a nice house in Queens, but beyond that, I mean, it just kind of is what it is. He obviously needs a scholarship to go to college, and they didn't make him look as poor as Peter did in the Raimi films. But she brought a lot of the ultimate portrayal in. Her scenes with Peter, though,
00:41:04
Speaker
I thought they really had a nice chemistry in this film, and they had a little bit of it in the first one, but for as little screen time as they got, like you said, you really felt the relationship. Just like you mentioned, Ben and Peter having that relationship in Spider-Man, Amazing Man around one, we got that in Amazing Spider-Man 2 between May and Peter. And even at the end, when he's pretty much stalking and mourning in his room and stuff,
00:41:29
Speaker
like you expected her to go in and like give some big speech about you know like oh well you know these things happen and you gotta dust yourself off and everything like that and and she doesn't do that like she but you can tell she's still there for him and is and understands that she respects the fact that he needs distance
00:41:50
Speaker
And you can sense and it's a kudos to both actors that you could sense the emotion, her being there for emotionally without her coming in and like, now, Peter, have some wheat cakes and get back out there. Yeah. Yeah. I know is about to go to study again. So now did did you get the sense that it's even more amazing because she hated these movies.
00:42:17
Speaker
A lot of them do. She hated these movies and like she was on Howard Stern and she was asked about preparation for the role and she's like, no, I didn't really do anything prepare for it. And she said like, you know, you try to do the best you can, but you can't shove 10 pounds of shit into a five pound bag. So yeah, she said the only thing she liked about these movies was working with Garfield.
00:42:40
Speaker
I bet she did. She's like, hey, I used to date Burt Riddles. But despite the fact that she obviously hated the script and she's a good enough actress that none of that comes across in her performance. Did you get the sense at the end that she actually does know that Peter Spider-Man?
00:43:04
Speaker
I'd say throughout both films, there was heavy hints dropped that she knew. And again, I feel like they were building towards if something was going to happen to Aunt May. If they were going to do a reveal, it was going to be her coming in or him and saying, like, I'm not fucking stupid, Peter. You're Spider-Man, you know?
00:43:25
Speaker
And I feel like her portrayal of Aunt May got that. If you tell Rosemary Harris Aunt May that she's curtains, you know, I don't think she could have handled it. But this Aunt May totally could have handled it. And I feel like they were going to build to the point where she just looked at them like, you're Spider-Man, I'm not stupid. And Peter wasn't the best in these films with protecting the secret. No, I mean, one of my favorite lines is when she walks into this room and she's like, why is your face so dirty? He's like, I was cleaning the chimney. She's like, you were cleaning the chimney. We don't have a chimney.
00:43:55
Speaker
Oh, what an idiot. The montage is him coming in different times from superheroing and crime fighting was very cool, too. I like that because Peter is always messing up his costume. Yeah, yeah. That was well done. But yeah, I loved
00:44:16
Speaker
Yeah, just her interactions with Peter were so good. And like you said, like there's a lot, she does bring in a lot of the ultimate version. Up until Marisa Tomei, the ultimate version of Aunt May was my favorite version of the character. And it's funny, like in all these movies, Aunt May keeps getting younger and younger.
00:44:36
Speaker
And Peter does too. Yeah, yeah. I remember one meme after Homecoming came out where it's like in the next reboot, you know, Aunt May's gonna be a teenager and Spider-Man's gonna be a baby. Spider-Baby, Spider-Mae. Yeah, my wife Angel, we were watching Homecoming and for the first time probably within the last year. So for her, seeing Homecoming and Far From Home. And she's like, she's too young to be Aunt May. And I was like, yeah, she ain't that young.
00:45:06
Speaker
I mean, you look at her, I mean, every dude who's not Peter is literally trying to get in her pants. Like, even a dude at the restaurant. I know. I think you are, too. Yes. And then I love, I just love the idea of Tony Stark hitting on Aunt May. Oh, I know.
00:45:27
Speaker
And even the deli guy who ended up getting his deli blown up, he said it in a different language. And then Peter came back and he's like, I'm not making your sandwich today. And we're talking too much about Homecoming now, but anyway, but yeah, she- I've been all over the place. Yeah, but her- It's a movie. Yeah, exactly. We're on brand. Absolutely. And, you know, going back to the first movie too, I do like the, she had these little,
00:45:57
Speaker
like there's, you get little hints of her relationship with Ben in the first movie as well, because like the meatloaf scene is one of my favorite scenes, right? When he comes back after he gets bitten and he's like, this is the best meatloaf ever. And she's like, she's like, he's like, he really likes that. And he's like, yeah, so there's something strange going on. He's like, yeah, nobody likes your meatloaf. And then she's like, and then afterwards he's like, why did you ever tell me that you didn't like my meatloaf?
00:46:24
Speaker
Oh man. Those are the sweet moments that we don't get enough because Ben's ultimately has to die. No matter what story you're telling, Ben's got to die.
00:46:39
Speaker
Ben and May in these movies as being more realistic people than I did in the Raimi films. Because in the Raimi films, it just felt like, you know, he's just doing the Lee Ditko, Uncle Ben and elderly Aunt Nathan. Yeah. And which is fine, right? I mean, obviously he was trying to pay homage to that and obviously I get it, but I do like more that Ben and May feel like their own characters in these movies.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yes. And that's definitely important. Because because can you imagine if they try to do a Spider-Man film without May or Ben or anything like that? Well, obviously we've got without Ben, but May is a central character in Spider-Man story. Yeah. Despite what some people may say. It's important that he has that that parental figure to kind of bounce off of. Yeah. That's not necessarily named Tony Stark. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:29
Speaker
So yeah, she was great and... All right. It's so hard...
00:47:39
Speaker
One of the other things I really liked in that scene with Electro was the scene where Peter works with the firefighting crew and he wears the helmet. He has the helmet on. That's so Peter. That's some Spider-Man. That scene was very good. The whole chase scene with Alexei
00:48:00
Speaker
oh yeah yeah the beginning of the movie when he's trying to get to graduation that's that's just so well done and gwen keeps calling him he's like yeah father's way she's like what's that noise it's like no food he's like you're fighting crime are you he's like no i'm on my way it's such a it's such a spider-man scene too like that is uh-huh
00:48:22
Speaker
That scene right there is the perfect encapsulation of who Spider-Man is, right? He's this guy, he's a crime fighter, but he's also got these personal life, these demands in his personal life as well. Like that scene is the perfect distillation of who Spider-Man is. Yeah. Yeah. After that scene, I was like, oh, we're in for a good one. I was like, I got good villain about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:46
Speaker
And then didn't he get to graduation and like kiss her on stage? Yeah, that was another thing. The whole that was, you know, we were talking about in the last episode, the whole the cocky Peter vibe with playing that. That's too cool for too cool to park. Exactly. Yeah. It does not grab the girl at graduation and do that. And then give the give the principal or whatever a high five. Right. I mean, it looked great on film. It did look great. Yeah. But it's just not Peter Parker. No, no.
00:49:12
Speaker
But that opening, I'm glad you mentioned that opening scene. And just like the whole thing where he's trying to, he's trying to catch all the vials and stuff. Oh yeah. And then also when he finally beat, when he finally beats Alexi and he pulls his pants down with the webbing, again, that's such a Spider-Man thing.
00:49:27
Speaker
Just for no reason, because like everybody says he's always like, shut up, shut up, God, shut up. I'm trying to concentrate. And obviously, one of the reasons that he's always wise cracking, he's distracting his opponent. Yeah, as we now know, like Peter didn't know shit about fighting other than using his powers. You know, right. If not for the spider, not for the spider sense, you would have gotten killed long ago. Right. Right. So that that's just one way to keep his opponents off their toes is by constantly annoying them.
00:49:55
Speaker
And then he just does it so much, he just does it to his people he's teaming up with as well. So he gets a little superheroes nerves too, but it's really beautiful thing to see those touches like that to add the bow to everything. It reminds me of, do you remember the,
00:50:12
Speaker
uh one of the issues of ultimate spider-man when he goes and he meets kingpin at a restaurant or something and and then kingpin looks down he's like young man did you web my feet to the floor and spider-man's like maybe he's like what possible pleasure would you derive from that and spider-man's just like see you don't get me i don't get you
00:50:29
Speaker
I think that's right around the time I started picking up the books, because I think I started, it was after 50 or something or so, I think I started, or no, early 40s, or mid 40s when I started reading the books. So I definitely remember that scene. And because it was completely pointless. It accomplished nothing other than getting on these notes. Yeah. That's Peter. Exactly. And yeah, rewatching that movie again and just seeing the scene where you just, you know, webs down, pulls down the pants. I'm like, yep, that's Spider-Man.
00:50:59
Speaker
and it was just perfect. And you know, a lot of people complain about Paul Giamatti in this movie playing, but you know, I kind of like that. They just have, they had him in there and just even like the thing of him being the rhino at the end, I didn't mind that because it gives you the sense that if you didn't, if you disconnected it from the sinister sick stuff, right? Right. And like, it just gives you the sense of, you know, what
00:51:24
Speaker
You know, Spider-Man's still doing this on an everyday basis. He's fighting guys like Rhino in this like every single day. It's not like once every three years he fights a super villain type of thing.
00:51:34
Speaker
No, this is a constant presence. Yeah, there's always there's lots of muggers and lots of stopping petty crimes. But I mean, people like to run show up all the time. Yes, the face just like at the end of the movie. And I mean, I I didn't love it because it's like.
00:51:57
Speaker
He's supposed to be mourning and everything, but at the same time, they did show the passage of Tom for him to finally be like, all right, I'm going back out there. And then from the step right back into the role, you know, and then and then take down Rhino and stuff. It was very cool to see that despite it all, despite losing the woman he loved more than anything in life, I mean, Spider-Man still got to put down the evil within when we crossed his path with. Yeah.
00:52:25
Speaker
Another thing, another scene that I just remembered and this kind of goes back to when you were talking about the kid who collected Spider-Man in the last episode and the scene with the kid who's getting bullied.
00:52:36
Speaker
And, and he, and he comes in and, and he's, and he's geeking out over the kid's invention. Right. Like that's, you know, just, and he's just walking home with him. Yeah. And that's with the child, man. You're supposed to be excited for him. I mean, you, you haven't gotten there yet, but, uh, uh, Leah, my daughter will sit there and she'll, she'll build Legos or should draw something. And it's like, she'll show it to me. Now, if anybody else's kid hands this to me, I'm like, okay, it's still a kid. I wouldn't do that.
00:53:04
Speaker
Let's say, say you drew a picture and you're like, Hey man, check this out. I'm really proud of you. I'm like, no, dude. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:53:12
Speaker
It's like, you don't do that with a child. You're supposed to encourage that sense of wonder. You're supposed to tell them that you want them to continue creating and stuff. I do kind of get a little bit of that sense with my daughter now because she's starting to learn how to crawl and everything like that. So even just getting up on her knees, which usually she'll just kind of pull herself across the ground. But every now and then, she'll get up on her knees and she'll start pumping and get ready to move forward.
00:53:41
Speaker
When we put her in this we got this Walker thing too and she can go side to side and she could go back, but she can't really go. She has she could get like one step forward and that's it.
00:53:51
Speaker
Hey, enjoy it while you can, because once they start moving, it's over. Yeah. Yeah. Life was so easy. And all of a sudden only is like now, like, what are you doing? I've been saying that ever since. But you're supposed to encourage children like that. And again, very Spider-Man, kudos to Garfield and the writers and everybody in the director, everything. He made time for that kid and made his day, man. And yeah. And.
00:54:19
Speaker
And again, that's another big part of Spider-Man, because Spider-Man is there for the little things and the big things. Right, the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man thing. That aspect in that scene in that movie and the scene with the kid on the bridge in the first movie, those are the types of moments that sell that idea.
00:54:40
Speaker
So there's so many good things in this movie. It's just, why did it have to be so much in this one movie? Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, and there's even with the villain stuff, like there's, there's stuff I, we, we even get, you know, Ravencroft for the first time and what we got, we saw the counters in the cell, but it wasn't actually, I don't think they explicitly called it Ravencroft in that movie. No, I don't think they explained too much. But they explicitly call it out Ravencroft in this movie. And I don't know what they were doing with,
00:55:09
Speaker
Dr Kafka though because Dr Kafka in the comics is a woman, and here they make them into a man and not only that but like a German mad scientist type it was so bad. I did not love that because Ashley Kafka was one of my favorite characters from the mid 90s because
00:55:25
Speaker
She she was like the doctor Ravencroft and he was always involved in like the little stories and stuff. And eventually she got reminded romantically involved with John Jameson. So I did like that character. And to see them the gender of the gender switched didn't bother me. But for them to be, again, this mad scientist and then ultimately die. It's like, what was the point of all that? Yeah, it was so it's like this is also like the the the stuff with, you know,
00:55:53
Speaker
Jamie Foxx's Matt Dillon and like being like Max Dillon. Matt Dillon, yeah. Oh man. I don't know. Matt Dillon could have made, bro. He probably would have done a better job as Electro, yeah. But yeah, but the whole like, like I keep getting the sense that it's like, it's like you got these weird Schumacher-esque elements. Like somebody, it's like somebody spliced in these characters from the Schumacher Batman films into these movies.
00:56:21
Speaker
And it's like, where you have Jamie Foxx is like Jim Carrey in Batman Forever. And I don't know what his name is, but the guy who plays Kafka is like John Glover's Dr. Woodru in Batman and Robin. Yeah, yeah. So many bad choices.
00:56:41
Speaker
I can't say that enough. Do you want to talk about the death scene with Gwen and everything? I want to get one other thing first. And that was, I did like some of Harry's interactions with the board, right? Like when he comes in and he's telling them, and he's like, it's Mr. Osborne to you and all that. And like, I did like that. And then he notices Felicia and he says that from now on, everybody works for Felicia.
00:57:11
Speaker
And I did like those little moments when he asserts himself. Again, that was something that Harry never was that great at. So to see him stepping into that role of his dad, which is something important in his character arc throughout his history.
00:57:26
Speaker
And then to see him go to Felicia and say you answer Felicia and stuff, that's more world building. So if you don't immediately have goblin diet in the film and you want to keep him around and go forward with him and then have Felicia over here to the side, they had so many pieces that they could have worked with. So that was very cool to see that too. I like that piece too. Now, the death scene. You know what?
00:57:57
Speaker
I hate the way it's handled, but it's still, it still gets me every time. Yeah. I mean, and like Garfield, and he did the same thing with George's death in the first movie too. It's like he so sells that emotion, like you mentioned last episode. And he's just like, you really feel that emotion. Like when he keeps saying, repeating over and over, stay with me, stay with me. Like it's, it is heartbreaking.
00:58:27
Speaker
It messed me up in the movie theaters and it still messed me up last time I watched it. Yeah. You know, he's not going to get to her. And I'm I'm not a purist. I don't need her to be thrown off a bridge. I don't need I don't need you to.
00:58:43
Speaker
do that crazy thing that they did which I I still believe him believe that uh ultimate you you know the story she was dead before she hit the water but then there's a snap sound effect they've taken out of reprints and stuff like that of when spider spider-man grabs them with the web um
00:59:02
Speaker
So I'm glad they didn't go that route. Yeah. They went and the Ramey film obviously had Mary Jane thrown off the bridge several times in one and three. She was thrown off bridges. So I'm glad they didn't go that way. And with everything just falling around them and him being so close and him trying to fire the web, the saver.
00:59:24
Speaker
And like you said, the scene feels like it lasts forever until she hits the bottom and they and they did not do her any favors. They want to make sure you realize she hit the bottom because it wasn't like like a slow motion, like, oh, no, it's and it's such a.
00:59:45
Speaker
because it is going in slow motion, like the web is sliding in slow motion, but then that snap is just boom in real time, yeah. Real time, she hits and then stops moving. And it's just like your stomach just sinks. And there's that moment of silence, right? After you just hang in there and you're just like, oh shit, that just happened. Yeah, I mean, as much as I hate
01:00:11
Speaker
how they how that scene happened like everything works straight around it with the goblin coming at the last minute and just being kind of tacked on like her conveniently being there now right to be picked up in the first place you know because she had she was involved in taking out electro so i mean but she wasn't there i mean she came into the fight to help spider-man
01:00:33
Speaker
And then for her to conveniently be there for the plot so that Harry can end up doing that to her. But I did like how she asserted herself to Peter in that, right? When she comes into the power plant and she's like, you know, she's reading him the riot act.
01:00:50
Speaker
Well, they were fighting over that the whole movie, though. Yeah. Again, it goes back to her dad saying protect her. And then she's like, you don't have to protect me. I can take care of myself. And in all the details that go with that. Yeah. And again, that speaks to their chemistry because.
01:01:08
Speaker
Gwen and Peter didn't get along all the time. They didn't get along a lot in this movie. Some of it was a little overly dramatic with the breakups and I'm going to go to London with you and things like that. They needed those set pieces to move the plot along and make this scene way more. Yeah. So to see them have that argument, they were arguing right before Green Goblin showed up. Yeah.
01:01:34
Speaker
And then for her to be gone like minutes later, like his last memories of her, it wasn't even like a happy memory. It wasn't even like he got to tell her goodbye or anything. It was literally like we're bickering and then now you're dead. Which is how it works in real life, too, which makes it such a real moment, too. And yeah, like all that stuff surrounding the death, you know, aside, but just like that, those moments were handled so well.
01:02:03
Speaker
And that's why this is such a frustrating movie because there's so many good elements in it.
Impact of Gwen Stacy's Death Scene
01:02:13
Speaker
It's hard for me to tell somebody that one of the best Spider-Man scenes is an amazing Spider-Man 2 because it's at the end of the movie and you got to go through so much shit. Yeah. To it. Yeah. That by the time like is it even worth the scene? And honestly, yes, it's worth everything else that they put us through this movie to get to the final.
01:02:36
Speaker
to end this movie for the minute that Gwen starts falling through the rhino fight. All of that works. Everything works from the beginning of the film up until pretty much Max is introduced and then everything in there is just choppy from there. So the beginning is strong and the end is really strong.
01:02:58
Speaker
I wish there had been a little, I don't know what the rush was or what the mandate was at Sony that they had to put it out this way or that they had to. And I get Avengers was big two years before.
01:03:15
Speaker
But the thing is, and again, DC, DC is still learning this lesson. You can't build shared movie universes overnight. Yeah, that's what they they attempted to do. Marvel literally took four years to get to Avengers. Exactly. Yeah. And everywhere else is like, we'll do this real quick and everybody will be here. It'll be awesome. It's like, no, unless you have the perfect film, it's not going to work that way. And even so, like Marvel had the perfect film, but it took time to get there.
01:03:43
Speaker
Yes, it did. If they had just come out in 2008 with the Avengers, it wouldn't have hit me. No, it would not have worked. I don't think it would have. It would have been like, what are all these characters doing? We don't have that. There's been no backstory to any of the characters. If you just drop into Avengers without knowing anything about it, you can follow it relatively okay, but you're going to be lost a lot and you need that world building to really sell that movie.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yeah. And that's something I think Marvel has learned over the years. I know that Avengers was the culmination of phase one. But even with stuff that we saw throughout phase two and phase three and the beginning of phase four, a lot of the movies you can just jump in, especially the Guardians movies, Guardians movies are like a lot of people's gateway drugs to them. That's how I introduced my wife to them is through the Guardians movies.
01:04:34
Speaker
There you go. There you go. Because that's the best way to do it. They're funny. They're entertaining. And then it makes you say, well, you know what? Maybe I will try out something else. And then you start getting everything else. So to see all these great ideas that could have been different segments of movies. And again, I don't know what Garfield wanted to do. I don't know what Emma wanted to do.
01:04:58
Speaker
But you feel like there was definitely going to be a third one. And there was room for all these stories to be told. This movie could have literally just been about the death of Gwen Stacy somehow. Yes, yeah. And you eliminate the lecture lecture part you go straight goblin, right, Peter, you build more about
01:05:18
Speaker
um Harry's about Harry Osborn a Green Goblin mistake you lean heavy into that keep all the parts with him and Gwen you can still have your your fun parts with the graduation and you can even throw the rhino in the beginning and it's not going to matter that can be your second villain but you you focus on Green Goblin and you still Gwen and Peter's story and then by the end when you get to the emotional moment when Gwen goes down starts falling like that that sounds like a perfect perfect Spider-Man film and I by no means have the
01:05:47
Speaker
Have a screenplay or anything like that. But then you you have these elements you could still introduce you vendor you could do Lecture another time hopefully way better. Yeah, you got Felicia Hardy there you have If you want to expand on the Rano in the center six, that's there later sit up Norman. You can still do Peter's parents But they just try to do too much. They try to do too much I mean and then they also had the you know
01:06:11
Speaker
When you mentioned Peter's parents, it reminded me too, the whole Roosevelt thing, right? Where he's got this hidden subway card. When did Richard Parker even have time to build that?
01:06:27
Speaker
I don't know. And one of the things I didn't like about either of these films, I know Peter's parents died when he was very little. He doesn't remember them. He has this desire to know who they are. And I know they really wanted to work on us taking his journey with him to discover more about who his parents really were. None of the parents stuff really worked for me because they were such small elements in both films.
01:06:56
Speaker
And even if we got more in the third movie, I don't know, it would have been has been the story, the payoff that I've been hoping for. You know, I felt like because this movie was I think it was heavily influenced by Casino Royale and Batman Begins and that this whole idea of like, you know, we have to tell the untold story of Spider-Man's origins. Like, well, there is no untold story about it. And when you try to make try to engineer it around that, it just doesn't it doesn't work.
01:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, Richard and Mary had nothing to do with him, Spider-Man. Yeah. You can try to tell me that they had a lot to do with the person that Spider-Man's become, Peter Parr's become, but ultimately, no, that's all on me and Ben. It's all me and Ben, yeah. Yeah, that's who raised him. Now, if you can tell me... It's like in that great scene when Sally Field says, you know, she's like, you're my boy, I raised you. Yes.
01:07:45
Speaker
That was great. Love that scene every time. That's very, for someone who didn't want to be in the scene, she was very present in that moment. That was great. So even if you want to spring these other ideas from his parents, which eventually will come into the Spider-Man universe, it really has no bearing on the character whose story you're telling. And it's like, I understand if you want to link Richard and Mary to his origin and like, you know, Richard worked for Oscorp,
01:08:13
Speaker
That's fine. But there's not really a whole other story behind that. It's just like, yeah, his research ended up influencing this other thing. But but even still, I like the idea more that Peter gets bitten as an accident of a fate. Right. It's not it's not something that happened because of who his father was or anything like that. It wasn't this. It was just he wasn't a test subject. He was in the right place at the right time. Yeah. And that's how and that's how the world got the amazing spider. Yeah. Yeah. And
01:08:44
Speaker
Hold on a second. You know what I think you know what you could do is I would have taken the goblin stuff out of this. I would have just focused this on electro and then the movie ends with Gwen going to Europe. Right. And then which is great too because Gwen took off to Europe in the comic books. Exactly. Exactly.
01:09:04
Speaker
So that would've been great too. And then- Sit through a bad electro story. Yeah. Well, I mean, the electro story, I'd still make changes to that too. But even still, like, if you just focus on, you know, electro in this movie, that's all you really need. And then you've got the setup at the end of the movie with Harry transforming and going to the goblet suit and Gwen going off to Europe now. And now you've got the perfect setup for a third movie. Yeah, your way might be a little bit better.
01:09:34
Speaker
And also with her going off to Europe, then you can also introduce Mary Jane, which is what they had, her scenes were cut in this movie, because there were two big scene cuts. One was Shailene Woody was supposed to play Mary Jane. And then the other one is that the very end, and this, where you find out that Richard Parker survived, and he comes up to Peter at the gravesite at the end. I'm not sure if you ever saw that scene.
01:10:00
Speaker
What? Yeah, it was it was really it just it felt so forced. Oh, my God. Boy, if if Richard Parker came up with Peter Parker in that movie, I've been done. They filmed it. I need a refund. They filmed it. It's America. Why?
01:10:19
Speaker
They filmed it. You can go. It's on the special features or you can probably find it on YouTube. But yeah, that's that's May's boy. Yeah. Yeah. They filmed it. Yeah. He he came back to life. And I'm just like, that was like the. Why? There's just no. Survived an airplane explosion. Oh, my God. Too and too much. Yeah. Way too much. Way too much. That's the that's the curse. And it's it's funny because both these
01:10:48
Speaker
both these iterations of Spider-Man made the same problems in the last movie. They both tried to do way too much in the last movie. Yeah.
01:10:58
Speaker
And we know what happened with Ramey. Ramey wanted to tell a smaller scale story with multiple villains. And Sony got involved in saying... Well, not even... Yeah, he didn't even... I don't even think he wanted Harry to be a big focus in that third movie. He wanted it to be Sandman as the main focus. Yeah. Like Harry was going to be in there, but Harry wasn't... They were going to set up Harry probably for like the fourth movie, if anything. Yeah.
01:11:25
Speaker
But yeah.
Comparison with Spider-Man 3
01:11:27
Speaker
All right. Well, you know, comparing these two, like the the Amazing Spider-Man movie that did too much and the Spider-Man movie that did too much. Which one would you prefer?
01:11:39
Speaker
That's a tough one, honestly. The nostalgia of Spider-Man 3 is what my gut wants to say. But with all its faults, the maze of Spider-Man 2, it moves so nicely along at a nice good clip. Things are constantly happening. You can get lost quite easily. Don't get me wrong. Because again, we've said this many times, folks. There's like 17 different things happening in the pool. Exactly, yeah.
01:12:08
Speaker
But it moves along. It's such a nice clip. Spider-Man three slows down quite considerably, at least two to three times in the film. So I have to say, if I had to choose between the two, I'd say Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man two would be the one that I would watch. I think I enjoy Spider-Man three more overall, despite its many, many flaws, too. But for for being probably the most terrible Spider-Man movie that's been released today,
01:12:39
Speaker
It goes, the pacing of it is very good. So it's very watchables though, which is crazy. I will put this one above Spider-Man 3. I think it's, because the, even despite all the villain, both of them have the same villain problems. But despite, so you could put that aside because both of them have the exact same villain problems.
01:13:02
Speaker
where it's just three villains, it's just way too much trying to do too much with these villains and none of them get the proper amount of development. But everything else in Amazing Spider-Man 2 I think is better because you've got this really strong core with
01:13:22
Speaker
with Peter and Gwen. And the cast is better too. The cast is better, yeah. That chemistry between Garfield and Stone is just so much better than the, you can't even call it chemistry between McGuire and Duns, because it did not exist. It was like anti-chemistry. They phoned it in so hard on three, man. They phoned it in so hard. Other than Franco and Dance and Peter, like everybody phoned in all the performances. Yeah.
01:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, and it's also when you think about the, just the way they behave, like, yeah, they have in both of them, you know, Peter has conflicts with his girlfriend, they're butting heads, but it's like, you know, going back to what we're saying about with May and Ben, like, it feels more real in Amazing Spider-Man 2, whereas in Spider-Man 3, it's
01:14:15
Speaker
She's, you know, she's having a rough time and Peter's trying to sympathize with her and she's being a total bitch to him about it. Yes, he is. He's like, you don't understand. You're not struggling. I'm supposed to be on Broadway, Peter. Yeah. And it's like, it's like, bitch, he just spent like what, like the past five years getting completely torn apart by the city of New York. I think he knows a little bit about rejection.
01:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, just a little bit. Oh, and she was so jealous of Spider-Man days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not like that at all. And plus like, well also too, like even if the roles were forced, like each role had a purpose in Amazing Spider-Man 2.
01:14:56
Speaker
Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man 3 had zero purpose. You could cut her scenes completely and the movie would not be affected at all. It affects nothing. She was literally there to be a hot looking rival to MJ. And she was never even really a rival either. No, no. Other than her kissing Spider-Man. Yeah, yeah. That was just something else to make Mary J mad. Right. And then the scene where Spider-Man saves her, I do think that was really well done. Yeah, it was well done, yeah.
01:15:26
Speaker
So that was cool. But other than that, that's it. There's no big deal. So yeah, I definitely take this one over Spider
Reevaluation of the Amazing Spider-Man Films
01:15:33
Speaker
-Man 3. I think it's a much stronger movie, all round flaws aside. All right. Yeah. So any final thoughts, Kel? Either of these movies, I guess, the web series in general?
01:15:51
Speaker
Well, again, when I suggest this to you, I was ready to viscerate both of these movies. Because when you watch them, especially after we've gotten all the iterations of Collins, Spider-Man, it's really easy to dismiss these, because there's only two of them. They're not as loved as the Raimi films. So it's really easy to be like, oh, man, they were terrible. And Garfield was too cool to be Peter.
01:16:18
Speaker
And he was a good Spider-Man though, but he's too cool to be Peter. And, uh, the third one, the second one was real bad and Jamie Foxx is awful. And all those things are, can be true, but they, there's a lot of things that work in both films. The first one, the first one was a solid film. Like I said, the last episode, you, you can watch that one. I do, I do recommend that one.
01:16:41
Speaker
I recommend you watch Spider-Man 2, Amazing Spider-Man 2 as well. I cannot promise you you'll like it. I do and I did enjoy it more than I thought I would. And then also I have that bias, that little thing that's it's a Spider-Man film.
01:17:01
Speaker
Of course, I might enjoy it, but with all its flaws, just like Spider-Man 3, there's a lot to like in this movie and it has a great beginning, it has a great end, and the movie moves on a nice enough clip where you can sit down and throw it on the background or just sit and watch the whole movie and you'll enjoy it. Now, not the best performances from Jamie Foxx or the Green Goblin, of course, but
01:17:29
Speaker
We don't know who to blame on that. But it's a watchable movie, you know?
Raimi's Spider-Man and the Superhero Genre
01:17:35
Speaker
It's definitely a watchable movie, so check them both out. And Perry, I think you've changed my mind on my amazing Spider-Man film, Hate, because I did not. But when I suggested this, I was like, yes, he does. I'm just going to go in here and be like, this is awful, blah, blah, blah. But I did really enjoy myself watching both films again. Yeah, yeah.
01:17:59
Speaker
And I think one of the big strengths that the rainy films had is that they came at a point where we had really nothing else out nothing. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you had x men but even x men was like very much, you know, it was trying to.
01:18:15
Speaker
It was one of those things where it was a shame to be in a superhero movie. X-Men 2000 was, it's different man. Yeah, yeah. But, but Randy Spider-Man, that was like the first superhero movie probably since Superman, the movie that was really out and proud about being a superhero movie, right? Oh yeah. It was, they were like, it was unapologetically,
01:18:39
Speaker
joyous in its celebration of being a superhero movie. Waving a superhero project. Yeah. And there was nothing else like that at the time. So even though you go back and you watch those movies and yeah, they have flaws. Like they are not, you know, I think a lot of people are looking at those movies with rose colored glasses because, you know, there's a lot of cheesiness in those movies. There's a lot.
01:19:06
Speaker
And these movies had, I think if these movies had came out in like, you know, 2002, they would have been much more well received. I can imagine in these movies in 2002. Yeah, but they came out in a post-Avengers world.
01:19:28
Speaker
It's kind of like, it reminds me of Days of Future Past in a lot of the ways because Days of Future Past kind of had this same problem where it feels like a movie that should have come out before Avengers. Right. I know exactly what you mean because literally like, hey, we're getting the gang to back together. And it's like, okay, we got the gang back together. Here it is. Everybody's like, thanks. Yeah, yeah. We appreciate it. We don't really appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:19:57
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, they're uneven movies is basically what it comes down to, but they're worth watching just on the strength of Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone alone. And like you said, that first scene in Amazing Spider-Man 2 is just pitch perfect Spider-Man. And those things alone.
01:20:20
Speaker
The casting of everyone who's not a villain is perfect. And those moments, those human moments, they're really, and that's Mark Webb's background, right? I mean, he directed 500 Days of Summer and that was a great movie. That's true. Call classic right there. I don't even know if it's a call classic, it's just a classic. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, they're worth watching.
Recommendation for Amazing Spider-Man Films
01:20:41
Speaker
I mean, if you have to fast forward to the supervillain parts, then go ahead, but it is worth it just for the interactions between Peter and Gwen.
01:20:49
Speaker
I'm sure there's an amazing Spider-Man 2 super cut out there somewhere that has no villains in it. Oh, I'm probably, probably. Yeah. They got those things all over the place. Yeah. All right. Well, Kel, thanks a lot for coming on and for absolutely for sitting for.
01:21:04
Speaker
looking at three out over three hours on the zoom counter here that we've been talking. No, no problem. I'm used to going, going for at least three hours when I sit down and record a podcast. Awesome. Awesome. I do a lot of talking, so I don't mind at all. I appreciate you letting me talk about the main Spider-Man films with you. Oh, happy to have you come on. Got to have you come back on again at some point.
01:21:24
Speaker
Yeah, 100%, I will be here, absolutely. Awesome, 100%, you said it again. I know, I went on purpose, I said 100% and then I was like, absolutely. Okay, all right. Okay, oh, before we finish up, tell people where they can find you. You can find me on, let's do social media this time, so you can find me on Twitter, at B hyphen, on Instagram, I am VB hyphen, on Facebook, hyphen universe, but I'm rarely over there, because nobody pays attention on Facebook.
01:21:53
Speaker
And then, yeah, those those are the main places I can be found.
Outro and Next Episode Teaser
01:21:58
Speaker
And if you really want to see some maybe goofy, you can follow me on TikTok, I guess. Is that all the hyphen on the be hyphen? OK, yeah.
01:22:08
Speaker
Okay, well that does it for another episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Come back next time where I believe, if I'm not mistaken, we're going to have kind of a different thing. We're going to be talking about politics and superheroes in light of all this Dean Cain bullshit. So
01:22:25
Speaker
You got Van Allen Plexco's plan to come on and we're going to be talking about politics and superheroes. Yes. Yeah. So come join us for a special discussion. Otherwise, head over to SuperheroCinephiles.com. SuperheroCinephile is the Facebook group, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. Be sure to like, be sure to subscribe, be sure to review, be sure to toss us some money through BuyMeACoffee or PayPal or Patreon or whatever you like.
01:22:52
Speaker
Thanks again for watching, thanks again for listening, and we will see you next time.
01:23:18
Speaker
If you buy or rent any movies through the Amazon links at our site, it helps support the show. Please be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. And as always,
01:23:48
Speaker
Good night. Good evening. God bless.