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The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Part 2
158 Plays2 years ago
Kelen "B-Hyphen" Conley is back in the seat to discuss the second half of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. In this episode, he and Perry talk about Sharon Carter's development, the wobbly elements of the show's latter three episodes, the significance of Sam taking on the Captain America mantle, and where these characters could go from here.
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00:00:00
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Isaiah Bradley and Racial Themes in America
00:01:11
Speaker
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00:01:32
Speaker
Mr. Bradley, we got to do something. We got to tell somebody. No, leave me dead. My name is buried. But the world's different now. I know people. Man, that's why you're here. You think things are different. You think times are different. You think I will.
00:01:58
Speaker
You won't believe jail was my fault because you got that white man's shield. They were worried my story might get out.
Falcon and Winter Soldier Episodes Discussion
00:02:11
Speaker
So they erased me, my history. But they've been doing that for 500 years. Pledge allegiance to that, my brother.
00:02:30
Speaker
They will never let a black man be Captain America. And even if they did, no self-respecting black man.
00:02:45
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and we're continuing on from our last episode. Got Kellen Connelly back here in the chair, and we're ready to talk about episodes four through six of Falcon and Winter Soldier. Kell, how you doing? I'm great, man. How are you?
00:03:01
Speaker
I'm good. I'm good. Got a chance to see that both my wife and daughter are going back to sleep. So there you go. Mine's getting ready to go to bed. So I completely can relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. She wakes me up at like seven in the morning and then, you know, as soon as I'm up and I can't go back to sleep, then she goes down for a nap.
00:03:19
Speaker
Of course. Yeah. Kids, what are you going to do? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so we're talking about the last three episodes of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I still can't believe this has only been, was only six episodes. I know. Yeah. The whole world is watching episode four, episode five is truth and episode six, one world, one people. So where do you want to start with these episodes? I think probably the first one is the big,
00:03:48
Speaker
Wakanda reveal in episode four, the big showdown with the Dora Milaje and the guys. Yeah. You mean the one that they lost? Yeah. Yeah. The unequivocally lost that vitamin, like Dora Milaje do not play at all. And obviously they were after Zemo because of the events of Soul War, because they killed King Tachaka.
00:04:12
Speaker
Um, and they adore Wakanda never forgets as we saw in Black Panther when they were going after claw. Um, and Claude stole that, uh, um, vibrating them years ago, but yet there is still like, uh, yeah, we're, we're coming for his ass. So, um, now it was very cool to see the Wakanda call back for Bucky.
00:04:32
Speaker
And I had mentioned this in the last episode, but having the fail safe in his arm when he literally were able to take his arm away from him. I mean, obviously he's still bucking a winter soldier. He can still hold his own, but it's a little more difficult when you only have one arm. And yet everybody just got their ass beat.
00:04:50
Speaker
Everybody lost in this one, man. One thing I loved about that is even Sebastian's dad looks surprised by the arm coming off. Oh yeah, because he had no clue. Yeah, that was acting on his part though, because you know, all that's done in post-production, right? So for them to, like his reaction is so great in that moment.
00:05:10
Speaker
And that's just it's such a Wakanda thing to do to have this. It's such a black man. That's that's from the comics I'm talking about. Like Black Panther in the comics totally has ways to like kill every single one of the superheroes. Yes. Yeah. He is always prepared for anything. He's not Batman level prepared, but I'd say he's more than Batman level prepared in some cases. He might be like if anybody has case studies on how to beat everybody, like you said, it would definitely be T'Challa.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yes, I love that. I completely loved it. And yeah, I mean, they came and handle their business. And then they're like, um, yeah, bring a Zemo or we won't come back and see you. Okay. It's also nice to see IO get some more development here and to have that connection established between
00:05:57
Speaker
her and Bucky because you don't really get the sense of how integrated Bucky was in Wakanda during that time because we just got because we see him you know at the end of Civil War he had put in the ice and then we see him at the end of Black Panther being
00:06:12
Speaker
you know, being woken, you know, appearing at the end there and then getting the army. Yeah, yeah. And we don't really get a sense of like, whether or not he was really integrated into into Wakanda society, but based on the interactions he has with IO and the stuff he says about his time in Wakanda,
Super Soldier Ideology and Walker's Fall
00:06:30
Speaker
you get the sense that it was actually, you know, he actually spent a lot of time there and he was actually pretty, pretty integrated into their society.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, and I would imagine that would be something that he wanted, especially once the brainwashing was gone. I mean, obviously he's never truly had a home for years because he's always been upon as the Winter Soldier. So having a place to call home and then being a place that's so built upon family as Wakanda, naturally I could see, even though they thought that he had killed King Tachaka,
00:07:03
Speaker
initially in Civil War, even with all of that bad blood that was there to see how Wakanda and the Black Panther were able to forgive all of that and really, one, help him escape the brainwashing, and then two,
00:07:19
Speaker
Let's how much time do we know really passed between Civil War and and obviously was um it was like a week in between the assassination attempt on Black Panther. So so honestly dang like let's say Black Panther takes place over like two like a month or so, month and a half. Like they they kind of got him unbrainwashed pretty quickly and then Civil War probably happens a few months later. So he was there for a decent amount of time. He wasn't there for like any five years or anything like that but actually I think you probably what because
00:07:49
Speaker
The MCU movies, they tend to move in real time for the most part. So Black Panther came out, what, 2017, I think? Yeah. And then Infinity War came out in 2019. So that's a good two years he's spending there at least.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. So and I just can't see them again, especially with T'Challa's message at the end of Black Panther about wanting to kind of open up the Wakanda to the world and, you know, kind of let it be known that who Wakanda is really instead of hiding all these years.
00:08:20
Speaker
I really can't see them, even if he is a colonizer, see them treating him any differently because, especially as Black people around the world can attest to, because we've been treated differently throughout history. I can't see them treating him any different fictional character or not. Wakanda is supposedly this technological, perfect society, country.
00:08:47
Speaker
And in that fashion, it would only be right that they would just welcome them with open arms once they knew he was okay. I mean, possibly, but I think also there's another aspect because of the fact that they've been isolationists for so long, they haven't really had any of that because I think you kind of see that with
00:09:03
Speaker
Daniel Kaluuya's character in Black Panther when he talks about when he's like against bringing refugees into Wakanda. Oh, yeah. So I think there's that as there's there's definitely a xenophobic element to Wakanda. It ain't perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's supposed to be perfect. I think that's a it's a really interesting real world parallel because, you know, the type of society you're in is really going to dictate, you know, the way you're treated like, you know,
00:09:30
Speaker
America, I'm a white guy in America, I'm, you know, top of the pyramid, but, you know, I come to Japan and, you know, where it's like your token minority status here, it's like, you're like the model minority here, it's like, oh, look, you look so cute trying to speak Japanese.
00:09:46
Speaker
But, you know, but we're not going to give you a loan or anything like that. So so you get a lot of those issues here. And it's not the it's not a one to one comparison, obviously. But it's yeah. Interest. It definitely has a similar aspect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely open my eyes to a lot of that stuff since moving here.
00:10:03
Speaker
I could see that my my best friend actually moved to New Zealand in late twenty nineteen. And he's he's still adapting to how different things are there. It's just a constant, constant thing to I mean, he's Indian, but he's still he's white. So he's like he's biracial. So here, like you said, he was white and got looked at one way and there he is literally a colonizer who came over from America and he lives in Wellington.
00:10:33
Speaker
And they don't treat him rudely, but at the same time, he's looked at differently. Yes, his wife's Asian on top of that. So I'm sure he catches a lot of straight looks that he doesn't deserve. Yeah. Yeah. And I love how just the whole thing with the Dormel, I was not expecting to get this much development of Bucky's time in Wakanda here. I thought there was
00:10:59
Speaker
Like you said, I didn't expect them to revisit that either. But now we kind of can talk about Bucky's development, like we did Sam's development, where again, he was always just, Bucky was a Winter Soldier bad guy. Oh, I'm not a bad guy. I want to save Kat, but I am a bad guy and stuff. And then it's like, oh, I'm better. Oh, I lost my arm. I'm whipped out. So it was constantly, something was happening to Bucky. Bucky was never around for any of those character building moments because even though he had a whole movie named after him, he was a side character.
00:11:26
Speaker
He was always he was always in the background, the cap. So getting to see that he did have familiar, familiar relations with Dora Milaje was really cool. And then also to see how much respect and admiration he had for him, too, because he's he told Sam straight up. He's like, you know, we're done. Like we shouldn't mess around there here. Like, let's just do what they want. And Sam's like, no way. And he's like,
Bucky and Sam's Relationship Dynamics
00:11:53
Speaker
Come on. You know, you know, T'Challa. I don't think you want to go down this route, so. And really, I think one of the things that did really well, too, was it really kind of illustrated how
00:12:06
Speaker
how really lost Bucky is now because, you know, and I think that's something we kind of take for granted when we see him first in the therapist's office, right? And we see him talking about, and you see he's got, and you see, he's trying to build a life here, but you get the sense that there's, there's something missing there. And then you realize when you, when you see him interacting with IO and when she forbids him from returning to Wakanda, there's,
00:12:32
Speaker
It really kind of clicked for me when I'm just like, Oh my God, this guy really has no place left. Like no place to go. Cause when he got out of the, when he's deprogramming everything, he's still got Steve at least.
00:12:46
Speaker
Now, Steve's gone. And so now he's got, like he says in Bucky to, no, no, he is Bucky, as he says to Sam in that episode, you know, that shield is the closest thing I have left to a family. And it's just like, it really puts that all into perspective, like how, like his visceral reaction to Sam giving up the shield. And it puts that all into the new context. And you realize that,
00:13:12
Speaker
You know, he's got, you know, he doesn't have cap. He's not technically an Avenger. And even if he is, you know, the Avengers aren't really a thing right now. We don't really know with them. You know.
00:13:25
Speaker
Sam's like the closest thing he has to a friend and they kind of hate each other. But he has like, he doesn't even have a home now because his only, the only home he's really known in the past, you know, 70 plus years has been Wakanda. Right. Because his old home, you know, Brooklyn, that's, you know, it's not, it's not the Brooklyn he grew up in. It's not the same Brooklyn, right? Yeah.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, man. That's a good point because I yeah, I mean, she literally said, don't come back to Wakanda. And again, he knows that they don't play around like she she ain't say that jokingly. Yeah. So you can't just show them up like, hey, here I am. You know, so he truly in a Captain America sense as a man without a country, a man without a home. Yeah. A nomad, if you would. So so it's
00:14:18
Speaker
It really is crazy that, again, just like Sam is struggling to kind of stand on his own two feet as Sam Wilson, Bucky is doing the same and struggling to find his own way in the world because there's no big fights to fight. I mean, obviously they're in the middle of something that they're trying to handle, but
Sharon Carter and Plot Controversies
00:14:38
Speaker
it's not like a Thanos level threat. There's just not any of these major things. They're literally just trying to get through our day to day.
00:14:47
Speaker
prior to the events of the show and neither one of them are being very successful right now. So it shows how much that they truly need each other as much as they kind of hate the fact they need each other. Yeah, I loved Zemo's speech too about about the super soldiers and about that connection like you know you know having a super soldier means that
00:15:08
Speaker
you inherently think it's a supremacy ideology. And I put a whole new spin on, because it's no longer just revenge for Sokovia. It's going beyond that. It's like this whole worldview he has now. And I thought that was a really, really cool thing to do. And one of the little things here is, you know,
00:15:30
Speaker
they tell him, it's like, well, Steve wasn't like that. And Zemo doesn't push them back on it, right? He says, you're right, Steve wasn't like that, but how many Steve Rogers do you know? And I thought that was an interesting moment because it shows that Zemo has got some respect for Steve. And I thought that was really cool.
00:15:47
Speaker
That's the power of Steve Rogers, man, like comic books, MCU. At the end of the day, you can put anybody with the shield, John Walker, Sam Bucky, and Sam and Bucky and John Walker, Toms, try to be the best Captain America they could be.
00:16:07
Speaker
There was only one person chosen to be the be the first person experimented on with the suit. Well, that we know of with the Super Soldier Serum. And it was Steve Rogers. And it wasn't because he was big, tough, strong guy in the movies. It was the one who used his brain. And he actually he he was all hurt.
00:16:28
Speaker
Like the man jumped on what he thought was a live grenade for a bunch of people who hated him. And the first Avenger man like that. And that was that was the moment that sealed it. Like all of them soldiers that he was in camp with hated his gut. So like you're too small other than Bucky. And I think Bucky was he wasn't even in the camp. No, no. Yeah, he was very good. Yeah.
00:16:48
Speaker
So the fact that scrawny Steve Rogers from Brooklyn was willing to risk his whole life to save everyone else and cover up a live grenade. And nobody else did. Everybody else is ducked and covered. That is what made Steve Rogers Captain America. It wasn't the Super Soldier Serum. It was who Steve Rogers was at that moment.
00:17:12
Speaker
Well, I mean, I love that. And that's something that they keep going back to, right? Is something that what Erskine talked about in the first, in the first Avenger is he says that, you know, the serum amplifies what's already there, right? So bad becomes worse and good becomes better. And, and- Like we saw of Red Skull. Right, exactly. Yeah. And, and Lamar echoes that too, right? He says that the super soldier serum, it makes you more of what you already are. And, and, um, and unfortunately we didn't get a whole lot
00:17:41
Speaker
of exposure to John to see like how he is really, we get a little bit at the end of the episode four when he kills the guy with Cap's shield. And by the way, like, I mean, how- Let's talk about it, man. Yeah, I mean, how, I remember watching that just being like, holy shit, this is on Disney Plus.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah, they spared no expense. Um, yeah, like obviously by this time, John took the serum that because there was a couple of vials that was floating around there. And he ended up taking it. And you can see the immediate difference because he's tossing everybody around Bucky Sam. And I mean, Bucky, Bucky supposedly does Bucky have super soldier serum?
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah, he's got a variant of it. Yeah, he's got a variant of it. And then, of course, he has a water soldier training. So and military training. So but he's throwing Bucky around like a rag doll and immediately like it triggered the worst emotions in John and John.
00:18:42
Speaker
and like he he just went off man and like you you could the cinematography was perfect you just see the blonde rage and that shield just coming down it's like yo yo is he gonna stop and we we knew he wouldn't go stop before a casual viewer they're probably like oh he's gonna stop he's gonna stop and then he just kept going it was just it was
00:19:06
Speaker
easily one of the most brutal scenes in MCU, movies or TV.
Contessa's Role and Racial Themes
00:19:11
Speaker
And it was done in a way to obviously show this guy shouldn't be Captain America, which is the gist they were going for. But it also showed again, just how dangerous again, great power comes with great responsibility. When you don't accept the responsibility,
00:19:35
Speaker
And in that moment, John did not, bad things can happen. And it just shows that, again, it's so hard. You can be Captain America, you can be called Captain America, you can go look at Good Morning America as Captain America, but you're not Captain America, even with a super soldier formula.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yeah, like that. This might be, I really liked the episode that introduced Isaiah Bradley. But this episode is probably my favorite of the entire show. I was heartbroken over what happened to Lamar, man.
00:20:14
Speaker
Because clearly it was it wasn't meant to go down like that. But obviously, John Cian read that's his best friend. I mean, who's to say that Cap, if he had saw Bucky murdered in the same way, wouldn't have been pushed that same break, because again, they always there's always an old adage of with supervillains, they always have one bad day and that one bad day pushed them too far. This is John's one bad day. And this is this is where he ended up. But who knows if
00:20:44
Speaker
Steve Rogers has one bad day if he doesn't end up in a similar place where he's standing over a body with blood all over his shield. We like to think he does it, but you don't know. I think we do see it. I think and that's kind of the contrast because we did see what happened because remember in First Avenger, he thought Bucky died.
00:21:00
Speaker
And so we do see that to an extent. And I think that shows the contrast between Steve and John really well in a way without actually having Steve there. Steve didn't have anybody to take it out on immediately though. It was the only thing. Like if Steve had a warm body that probably just beat the crap out of, we don't know what could happen. Steve obviously saw him go over, the train blew up, so they had to get out of there anyway.
00:21:23
Speaker
So we, we don't, and then he went back and kind of dealt with his feelings the best he could. And he couldn't even get drunk by that point. So it's all about circumstances, man. Yeah. But I think it does show that, that different, and just like that image of the shield covered in blood like that. And it's just, and that's horrific. Yeah. It's, it's, that's a scene we've seen so many times in the comic books, but to see it in live action like that. And in that context, like it's,
00:21:52
Speaker
And I think that did a really good job of illustrating why this guy cannot be Captain America. Yeah. They used that a lot during the comic books of a war, like when Cap died with the blood covered shield and everything. So it was definitely imagery we were used to.
00:22:07
Speaker
And even still, even with being used to that, I was surprised by how shocking it was to me. They went for it, man. Yeah, and all credit too to Wyatt Russell for really selling that rage. The guy was so good at being a jackass and being in this show that
00:22:29
Speaker
Motherfuckers were giving them death threats. Of course, because that's what we do when we think that you're a bad person at TV show. Obviously, you're a bad person in real life, which is crazy to me. OK, like I'm still I'm sure there's still actors out there who get unfriendly emails about a portrayal that they were in a movie because people just can't separate life from from fiction.
00:22:50
Speaker
Well, did you ever see how I met your mother? Oh, yeah. You remember William Zabka's appearances and he talks about how, like, you know, everyone just like throwing popcorn at him everywhere. Yes. And like even his mom, when she calls him, she's like, oh, that's exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I like to think of that as a spiritual as the reason we have Cobra Kai. I think the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this would never happen if Barney didn't take Johnny side in the first place. It's like, maybe we should tell Johnny side of it.
00:23:25
Speaker
But, and then there's the dishonorable or the other than honorable discharge scene when he gets chewed out by the Senator and all that. And I think one of the best parts of that is when John says to them, you built me, right? I'm exactly what you made me to be. And now you're punishing me because I'm doing what you made me to do. Right out of the comic books. Yeah, not only right out of the comic books, but so realistic because that's what the US government has done, right? It's like,
00:23:44
Speaker
And it's way more compelling than anyone thought it would be.
00:23:55
Speaker
we build these people up to, and then when you have things like the me line massacre in Vietnam or Abu Ghraib, and we're like, oh, we're horrified. This should never have happened. We don't know how this happens. Well, you fucking dehumanize. You put them in the position. You dehumanize the enemy. What do you think's going to happen?
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah, we didn't think all that would happen. But but again, it's that what was that that quote that you said earlier about the dick swinging. Oh, yeah. Adolescent exercise is dick waving. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what the U.S. tends to do. They're like, they're always dick waving. And then when a dick gets waved too far, they're like, oh, oh, oh, we didn't want that. We didn't mean to wave it that far. God, like you think we're monsters, huh?
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, a little bit. You guys are the bad guys. Something I wanted to ask you about that bothered me on the show, Perry. Did Sam's empathy for Carly seem... I know it was important for him to sympathize with her cause, obviously, and the Flag Smashers as a whole.
00:25:10
Speaker
I really felt like at no point, even in the season finale, I was like, you know, he doesn't have what it takes to take her down. Like he can't bring himself to do it. Did that bother you at all? Because I saw it didn't really bother me too much. It was more along the lines of at some point, you've got to draw lines like, OK, you've went so far. I got to stop you. And I never felt like Sam got to that point. And there was a lot of venom for
00:25:35
Speaker
Venom for Sam on the internet, just about how he was shooting Carly as well. And even Bucky mentioned it too on the little bit of the show. It was like, Hey, you know that she's the real, we got to stop her and everything. And Sam's like, yeah, but I got to, I got to talk to her. I got to reach her. Did you think they kind of went a little too far with Sam constantly trying to kind of change her mind and kind of, and kind of make her realize that what she's doing is wrong or did you feel like it was the right amount?
00:26:03
Speaker
No, I think I think you're definitely right. I think they did push that too much. And this could be another example of it being a victim to the changes in the scripts due to COVID-19 and everything in the pandemic. And I think that might have been a factor in it, but it definitely felt like at some point, like you said, you got to draw a line because I think even at, you know,
00:26:24
Speaker
When she's threatening your sister and your nephews, I mean, that's kind of got to be a line in the sand you draw there. I mean, at that point, I think Sam should have been like, all right, you know, I you have you have a point, but I got to bust your ass at some point now. Yeah, I think they they definitely push that too far. So, yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
that that was the one thing about Sam's portrayal was just like come on man like like the words the part where you're like i'm ready to go kick butt and it like we got the part where he's like i'm ready to go be cap and it was like he's like i am a black man as captain american i hope you can respect me which his speech was way better than that but um those are important but at the same time it's like you need to be able to
00:27:11
Speaker
you know the line ends here and put that foot in the sand and really push back against against the opposition and and he didn't really get that moment to shine um especially against Carly as the main antagonist. Yeah yeah yeah I felt I mean Carly in general I felt she was
00:27:30
Speaker
she was handled kind of unevenly. And I think that she's, and again, that could be, you know, a victim of the writing and the changes, but you know, I thought, you know, it starts off, she's got a good point, but then, I think the show keeps trying to paint her as too sympathetic even after the show has kind of made her out to be beyond the point of sympathy. Like, I mean, I think,
00:27:56
Speaker
For example, if you draw comparison in some of the other characters that we've got symphony for like Zemo in Civil War or Zemo in the show even, or Thanos in Infinity War or Killmonger in Black Panther.
00:28:13
Speaker
Each time, you can understand their point, but the movie still says, like, okay, here's the line, and here's the point when they cross the line. And once they cross that line, then you're like, okay, yeah, I mean, they got a point, but I still wanna see you get your ass kicked. The show, though, with Carly, it seems like it goes,
00:28:33
Speaker
You know what? Here's the line. Here she is, but the show's still trying to convince us that we're over here. It's like the show's not caught up to her actions. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that because I wasn't like crazy. Like, Oh my God, Sam, like I can't believe you. But at the same time, I was like, I just wanted him to put his foot down and he never did. Yeah. He was like, he was upset that parents like, all right, you stopped that down.
00:28:56
Speaker
All right, I made it this last time. One more time. And she just kept doing it and doing it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was definitely, especially when you compare it to like how he treats, how he treats Zemo, how he treats, you know, John, I think there's a lot more, it's a lot, he's a lot harsher. He's a lot more judgmental of those actions, but less about Carly. And I thought that was a very, that was a huge disconnect in the series.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't know if it, like maybe he kind of saw her as, especially cause he has the nephew and everything, like maybe saw her as some, because she was so young that there was still time to maybe kind of save her. But it just didn't come across the way I think they wanted to. I think so too. Let's talk about Sharon Carter.
00:29:44
Speaker
Because, I mean, this is, I thought it was so cool to get to finally see her have like, you know, a role with with some weight to it because we hear it, you know, she gets that little bit in, you know, Winter Soldier, you know, she gets a little bit in Civil War but still caps speech. Yeah, steals caps speech.
00:30:04
Speaker
And then they, and, you know, they were kind of, it seemed like they were kind of trying to lead up to something between them, like in the comics, but, you know, the Peggy fan base is too strong with the movies. And so they had to go back to Peggy and the, and then, yeah. Oh, they, they went back to Peggy. Literally. I really don't want to think about that timeline beyond him getting to go back and have that dance. So let's just leave it over there. Sharon kicks a ton of ass though, man. Like, um,
00:30:32
Speaker
Obviously they found her in Madripoor and like she's already mad. She's like, I can't go back to my country. This is BS. Like I can't, like I helped Steve and nobody's letting me in. Like I got no contacts. She's super mad.
00:30:47
Speaker
And I was like, I was like, yes, like, I'm glad that we're seeing this kind of fall out from, again from the Sokovia Accords, because obviously we know that that Tony and Cap weren't talking and, and they went their separate ways and then Thanos showed up everybody had to kind of make up as the action was unfolding.
00:31:07
Speaker
Um, just, just like with the blip, um, there is an important timeframe that we're missing with a lot of these characters. Like Sam was on the run with cap, obviously. Um, Bucky was in Wakanda and we're seeing shades of that. So there's, whenever they do a season two, there's still a whole lot, a whole bunch of stuff they can explore with those Tom, those, uh, timeframes with Bucky and, and Sam.
00:31:31
Speaker
But to really see Sharon, who was literally the odd man out, especially once all the superheroes showed up in Civil War. And she was like an afterthought after that. She literally to say, like, I can't go home. I'm a traitor and I need your help. But then it was Sam that offered, hey, I can I can get you pardoned or something.
00:31:52
Speaker
Like my man can't even get a loan. How's he going to get it? Yeah, I thought I was going to have like, like, Sam, aren't you kind of overselling your, your influence? Yeah. Like, like even like roadies in the military is still like maybe roadie could call in a favor or something, but he, he was really sounded like he, like he was already captain America and he was on favor or something, but he's like, we'll get your pardon. Just help us out. And, and.
00:32:16
Speaker
Sharon never bought into this chick for a second. She was like, okay, yeah, I'll help. But it was more out of a thing for, more out of respect for Cap than it was, I actually think you guys can help me as we saw down the line. But yeah, I really loved everything that Sharon did in this series. And I can't really say much, like the end reveal that we're gonna talk about here in a little bit.
00:32:46
Speaker
I didn't hate it. I didn't like it. I was just kind of like, meh, I saw it coming. But I really enjoyed her character development that we got in the episodes leading up to this finale.
00:32:57
Speaker
Well, let's go ahead and talk about it now. Cause I mean, let's talk about it now. So like my love was, I mean, the first time I watched it, I think I had kind of the same thought as you. I'm like, yeah, kind of, kind of make sense. I see how I'm coming. Not sure I really like it. Second time though, I thought it made a lot more sense. I thought it, I thought it, it, when I get, when I divorce it from what we know from the comics, I thought it actually worked really well because it's that whole idea of, you know,
00:33:25
Speaker
how far can a person be pushed? Like you were saying, that one bad day thing. And I think, I mean, it totally makes sense because, you know, they never mentioned it. I don't think she was, they ever mentioned if she was part of the blip or not. I think she was still- Yeah, I think she was around. Yeah. Cause everybody who got blipped are like, oh, I wasn't here for five years. They're making a point to kind of mention it. Yeah. So like, you gotta look at it from her perspective. Like she puts her ass on the line to help Steve and Sam.
00:33:55
Speaker
And then, you know, she gets she loses her job. She becomes a traitor to her country. She's got to run away to Madripoor. And she's got to, you know, build a new life for herself on the black market, basically. And she does really well for herself. Yeah. Yeah. Like I I felt like Shang-Chi's sister. I can't think of her name off the top of my head. I feel like she took a lot of her cues. Yeah. Thank you. She took a lot of her cues from Sharon Carter because I mean, when you get introduced to her, she's in charge of the
00:34:25
Speaker
the fight ring and everything. And then obviously we know what happens at the stinger and the Shang-Chi. So I definitely felt big Sharon Carter vibes from the way that she was taking care of herself and the way she was portrayed.
00:34:37
Speaker
And I thought it did make a whole lot of sense because the entire time when, you know, Sam's talking to her like, I can get you a party and you can go back home. And she's like, oh, you think you can, you can help me go back home. And I'm, as I was watching that the first time, I'm like, wait a minute. They didn't speak well enough. They didn't. I think that, I think that's the, they spelled it out. I think that's how it works. In a way it kind of works, I think, because the first time I'm watching, I'm like, you know, she's got this,
00:35:02
Speaker
you know, she's rich, she's got this really nice, you know, penthouse apartment with his resources, freaking art gallery. She's got all these resources and all that. I'm like, she need to go home. Yeah. Why does she need to go home? I mean, like, you know, go to a place where I'm going to have health care and you can't get a loan to the bank. Right. And I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, when I'm like, why would you want to give all that up to go back to what she used to be doing? And then when I get to the end there,
00:35:26
Speaker
And, you know, she does that thing where she gets on the phone and she says, you know, no more super soldiers but I've got access to a lot more stuff. It totally makes sense because, you know, she got sold out by her country. After the blip, you know,
00:35:44
Speaker
Steve was back in New York. Steve went back to the vendor's compound. He wasn't on the run anymore. And he wasn't trying to find her. He never came back for that. That's a great point. That's a whole other thing that can be, they can do with her the next season too. I don't think they're gonna do another season because they said they're gonna do Captain America 4. Oh, okay. Well, that would make sense. But yeah, but I would love to see like, I mean, you know what I wanna see? Like my dream MCU project would be like an animated series or something.
00:36:14
Speaker
or comic series or whatever set between two eras. One, the time between civil war and infinity war. And another one is in the time between infinity war and end game. I think those are two vastly unexplored areas with a whole lot of time. A lot of stuff can happen in there, especially in the case of the five year gap in end game. And just like, you know, and there's so much story potential. Like, you know, we know that the Avengers are obviously still active
00:36:44
Speaker
because we see them, you know, Black Widow's calling the place and everything from the compound and everything. So we know they're still doing stuff. So, you know, and that's such a rich area for exploration. I would love to see what other stuff had happened in that time.
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah. And we know from what if that they're fully capable of doing it. Yeah. Like, and just give me 10 episodes and set it in different eras and just tell the story. And the voice actors obviously will come back. They came back for what if. I mean, Chadwick Boseman's last time as T'Challa was doing what if. Yeah. And he was like in two episodes, it was just crazy. So it'd be a very easy thing to do. And there's a vast array of stories that need to be told.
00:37:25
Speaker
that can be built upon or just stand alone on their own. It's a wealth of unexplored territory. Yeah, so I think it makes a whole lot of sense for her to become the power broker and then to still commit to being betraying her country because her country kind of betrayed her first. So this is kind of like her getting back.
00:37:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Like, like I said, I wish they weren't so obvious when they first they first brought it on because they were talking about the power of power, power of power. Like, like, come on. Like, we know, we know. And I'm glad that they didn't go for the reveal immediately because then we know there's that they're traveling with the power broker. Yeah.
00:38:08
Speaker
And I kind of wish I was just more surprised at what had happened. But like you said, in the grand scheme of everything, especially with what happened to Sharon Carter in between those two time periods, why not be the firebroker? Yeah, yeah, I think I make it. I didn't like it at first, but on the repeat view, it definitely makes a whole lot of sense to me. And I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes from here.
00:38:31
Speaker
because I think it opens up a lot of interesting story potential. And it gives Sharon something to do because, you know, obviously she can't be Cap's girlfriend now, so they got to find something else for her to do. And I think, and I like that they're just not dropping her, that they're finding something for her to do. Yeah, which is, which I agree because, I mean, who thought we ever see her again after some of this? Yeah, yeah. And Emily Van Camp, like she definitely deserves more time in this than what she's gotten so far.
00:39:01
Speaker
Um, and also got to talk about, um, one of my favorite appearances in this show was Julia Louis Dreyfus popping up as the Contessa. I just like, Oh man. Talk about a, uh, talk about a real surprise, man.
00:39:17
Speaker
That that was absolutely amazing. And like, obviously, she's going to go on to be a part of MCU. She's already been a black widow. So they're going to continue to go back to that. Well, like, I don't know if she'll ever have to be like full blown red carpet album in this movie, like, especially in the contest of role. But her role, again, just like the power broker, there's so many possibilities they can get upon. So much they can do with her.
00:39:46
Speaker
Well, and she's just got like such the perfect entrance in this show. Like just the way she appears, the way she starts talking, the way she hands on the business card that has nothing written on it.
00:39:57
Speaker
Yeah, and everybody thinks she's a hot mess is the crazy part when you first meet her, but she's pretty connected. And we're obviously each appearance, we're learning more and more about what she has going on. So yeah, I love the casting choice. I've always loved Julia Louis, especially from the Seinfeld days, obviously, and her work on VP. So yeah, I look forward to seeing more from her, man.
00:40:25
Speaker
I'm glad to see, not that MCU's ever had a star power problem, but it's nice to see those really established actors that we know really well coming into MCU and getting in the sandbox and having fun with their characters. I mean, I think after Robert Redford appeared as a villain, like after that, you know, all bets are off. It's just like, you know what, they can get Robert Redford and it's like, there's like nobody they can't get now.
00:40:50
Speaker
That was a pretty big get at the time. I forget how big of a deal, because I've seen Winter Soldier, like I can close my eyes and watch it. So it's no big deal to see him now. But in that moment, I knew he was already cast in the movie. But to see him and then eventually for him to be the bad guy, I was like, oh my God, this is incredible. Yeah.
00:41:10
Speaker
Uh, you know, uh, I thought the, the last episode I felt was really kind of the weakest of the bunch. I mean, it was the most affected by COVID had to be. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it felt like there was, there was too much story left. And they, they just kind of like had to wrap it up kind of quickly. And I felt that a lot of stuff kind of got thrown under the bus because of that.
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I mean, let, let's just talk about real quick that, uh, the power broker killed Batrock and just as much as we are happy to see him, he was gone again. Yeah. I was disappointed by that. I'm just like, yeah. I'm like, yeah, Batrock's back. We're going to see more Batrock and he's down.
00:41:50
Speaker
Oh, and never mind. Yeah. Obviously, the super powered Plagsmashers, they all got easily disposed of by Zemo's Butler, who which is which is a nice callback, because we got introduced to him after he broke out of prison. We didn't even talk about the fact that they broke him out of prison. Yeah. Well, that was such a great scene when when Bucky's going over the potential plan to break Zemo out of prison.
00:42:18
Speaker
Yes. And then you find out he's he's just recounting what he's already done. Yeah, it's all done. It seems like pretty much, you know. Yeah, that was a great scene. I rewatched that when I first watched it. I actually went back and watched it again because I was I was definitely pumped for how that worked out. I love a good prison break. I'm a sucker for one of those.
00:42:45
Speaker
Um, but yeah, we got to use the Butler in that episode. Um, and when he's like, I'm a Baron, and then he's the one that actually takes out the super soldiers. And then of course, um, Sam, who had been training with the shield after he took it off of, um, John, after John killed, um, killed the flag smasher, um, RIP, man, that was a brutal way to go.
00:43:06
Speaker
Well, something else, too, about that flagship is that was the guy who also said that, you know, when I was a kid, Captain America was my favorite superhero. Yes, that made it even more crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cap was my favorite. And then for his last moments to be that damn, she'll just crush me. Oh, yeah. Great, great storytelling, Marvel. Yeah. Yeah. The Butler, though, I also this is going back to what we talked about last episode. But I do love that that part when
00:43:32
Speaker
They're on Zemo's plane and Zemo's talking to the butler in Sokovian or whatever and he says, you know, see if there's any expired, any meat back there if it's past the expiration date give it to them. Right, he's all he's always trying to find a way to do him do him dirty on the side like without completely betraying them. Yeah, because for the most part, Zemo held up his end of the bargain.
00:43:53
Speaker
Um, even, even like up to the door, Milaje taken him, like he, he didn't, like we all was expecting him to turn on him at some point. Um, and he just, he never did. And obviously we're, we're probably hoping this leads into thunderbolts, bolts at some point.
00:44:10
Speaker
But it was very cool to see him honor the contract he made and not just do the supervillain thing and be like, I got you. Why are you stupid? You're too stupid to trust me. So I did. I did appreciate that about his character as well. Yeah, it harkens back to something Bucky said earlier, right? When he said, you know, Zemo's got a coat.
00:44:30
Speaker
And I like that they stuck with that. They maintained that, yeah, Zemo's, you know, he made a deal, he's gonna honor the deal. And I thought that was really, really good work on Marvel for doing that. Instead of going the obvious route, just having Zemo betray them. Yeah, which has been done to death, obviously. Yeah.
00:44:49
Speaker
What did you think about Isaiah's speech to Sam when he says that, you know, they'll never let a black man be Captain America and no self-respecting black man would ever be Captain America anyway?
00:45:01
Speaker
That's some real shit, Perry. I mean, it hit home, man, because again, this is fresh off the events of the summer 2020 and the Black Lives Matter movement and the riots and everything. So it was still fairly fresh in my mind and America's mind.
00:45:20
Speaker
And with those events in mind for Isaiah to say that to Sam, especially after Sam's like, I got the shield and I'm training and Sam's like, I think I'm going to do it. Like this, the next move. And then, and Isaiah's like, look, Negro.
00:45:36
Speaker
You can train all you want. You can wear whatever suit they want you to. But you're never going to be black, black America. You're never going to be Captain America, Black, Black in America, Captain America to them. And you and no self respecting black man should be Captain America. That that kind of taps into the whole Kaepernick argument of it all, because obviously the reason Kaepernick started taking a knee was to protest the way that police brutality against black people in America.
00:46:05
Speaker
And obviously it turned into a big thing. He lost his job. He's not an NFL and now he makes Netflix money. So who did it really work out? I'm sure it did. But, um,
00:46:16
Speaker
that that was just something when he started those protests and myself or other people really took a look at it and got beyond uh it's disrespectful to the flag and just really looked at it as damn he's kind of right like him as an athlete all these athletes around the world all these black people in the country who who go to work every day for these corporate places and
00:46:39
Speaker
and supposedly they're part of American infrastructure and their their representatives flag or they stand for national anthem and and supposed to be honoring the the soldiers who died for them which i 100 agree with like obviously i respect any soldier who went to war for american for me or your rights um as americans or as um ex-patriots as you are um but
00:47:03
Speaker
I completely get that. But when you break it down to the basics of does my country love me because of the color of my skin? And the answer is no. Then, yeah, it's really hard to get behind the flag and then to be wearing the symbol of America and literally be the same guy who was selling war bonds prior to going to break Bucky out of the hydro camp.
00:47:33
Speaker
to be that guy on top of that guy, previous guy being so beloved and so air quotes perfect. It's an impossible task because America won't ever respect you. They might be like, oh, there goes Captain America.
00:47:51
Speaker
Like on the street, like they, they seek, they see Sam and like, Hey, Hey Cap, how are you? And Sam's like, Oh, good. You know, just having a conversation. And then they, they go home. They sit down at our dinner table and they say, guess who I saw on a black Captain America. Yeah. There's always that asterisk. Right. He's not, he's not cap. He's, he's black Captain America.
00:48:11
Speaker
So, I definitely see Isaiah's point. Obviously, the show would have been a little anti-climatic if Sam was like, yeah, you know, you're right. Let me go out here as Falcon. So, I mean, it would have defeated the purpose of putting him in the role of Cap, but it hit close to home, way too close to home pair. Yeah, and I thought that was
00:48:34
Speaker
Uh, I thought Sam's counter argument to that where, you know, he's, he acknowledges, and this is kind of touching a lot of what you're saying, where he, like, he acknowledges everything Isaiah is saying is true. But at the same time, he says, look, you know, we built this country and, you know, and, you know, and I'm not just going to sit down and, and, you know, let them dictate it. And, you know, I'm going to.
00:48:57
Speaker
You know, I hope, you know, my ancestors help build this country, you know, I know what people have gone through. I'm from the, I thought that was too an interesting change that they made Sam come from the South and the MCU, whereas in the comics he's from Harlem. I thought that was a really interesting change they made. And that really kind of, kind of ties into a lot of this stuff too, because, you know,
00:49:16
Speaker
My impression is, obviously, because I'm not a black man in New York, or I'm not a black man in the South, but my impression is- Not black, you guys. Yeah. FYI. I could not be whiter if I tried. But I'd imagine it's a very different kind of upbringing where if you grow up in Harlem, in New York, versus if you grow up in the South.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's two different worlds. And myself, I was born in Virginia. I was raised in West Virginia. So I had a very different black experience because I even though I was surrounded by white people, I actually had had a pretty good childhood where I didn't have to deal with a lot of racism, even though I was literally one only a few black kids in my county and in my area for years and years.
00:50:05
Speaker
So it definitely changes things to know that Sam is from the South and he knows all the history that has come before him and all the awful things that have happened and he's reminded of it every single day living in the South because I'm sure it's not hard for him to look up and see a Confederate flag.
00:50:27
Speaker
Um, compared to somebody who might be like Harlem Sam, because if I remember Harlem Sam, when he's first introduced, he was, it was like seventies. And so he was like, he's like, Hey man, Cap, you're a job Turkey man, man. This is, this, this is, uh, man, this is funky, fresh cap, blah, blah, blah. What you going to do for, for, for the homies around the way? Except he didn't say homies. The brothers around the way cap and caps is like, uh, you know, cause it was a, um, I don't, I forget to introduce. I think it was, I think it was Engelhardt.
00:50:57
Speaker
Okay. So you got Englehart introducing this black character and trying to make him sound hip at the same time to the slang of the Tom. So it reads very awkward in 2022. But even if he was a guy from Harlem, like his experiences in Harlem wouldn't necessarily speak to the experiences that he would have as someone from the South.
00:51:20
Speaker
because he'd be from New York, and I'm sure he would run into some bad cops and stuff, but New York is still from the north, and while racism is obviously still prevalent everywhere, it just is, it hits different up north than it does in the south. And for, and Isaiah's from Baltimore, for example, so that again, Baltimore is one of those
00:51:45
Speaker
Baltimore was in the north, right? That's about the Mason-Dixon. Yeah. So again, that is, they're from a free area, a free state at the time of the Civil War, the original Civil War, not the Congo Civil War. So people from Baltimore who were raised that way, they have different experiences and they feel a certain kind of way. So
00:52:05
Speaker
for obviously Isaiah is speaking to the horrors that he went through from the super soldier program and the way he was treated. And then obviously he just sees how he takes his experiences and he just sees how black people were treating the country altogether. So yeah, he never had the chance to be responsible for his power. Sam does have that opportunity. And again, it comes back to the great power, comes to great responsibility.
00:52:33
Speaker
Yeah, Sam could be like, you know what? You're absolutely right. I'm crazy for thinking this. I'm going to do what I can. But Sam's like, no, I was given this shield by my best friend. And he didn't look at me and say, hey, black guy, take this shield and see what happens to you.
00:52:48
Speaker
He was like, you're my best friend. You've been there for me for years. I love you, respect you. And I want to give you the shield because I feel like you will stand up for what the beliefs behind this shield. And and so he gave it to him. And obviously, he thought he wasn't ready. But now at this point, he feels like he's ready to take on whatever may come at him, whether it be that truck or racism in that costume as identity of Captain Captain America.
00:53:15
Speaker
So it's just all about perspective, man. And who's to say Isaiah wouldn't have done the same if the roles are reversed. Yeah. And that's, that whole conversation is echoed very, very well in that training scene with Bucky when they're throwing the shield around. And Bucky says to him, you know, like, you know, when Steve told me his plan, I don't think either of us realize what it means for a black man to hold this shield. Yeah. And I think that's,
00:53:41
Speaker
I thought that was such a powerful moment of realization, because he's been busting Sam's ass this entire time about this shield. And that line, you know, Sam says, you know, the legacy of that shield is complicated. And like, when I saw that in the trailer, I'm like, oh, they're gonna talk about the truth. They're gonna do, they're gonna go, I saw that coming, but seeing it in context, it really makes it, after hearing Isaiah's speech, it makes it,
00:54:05
Speaker
So much more poignant. Yeah. Yeah. And who knows how much Steve and Bucky deliberated over it? It might have been like, just, hey, man, like, I got to take these stones back tomorrow. I think I'm going to go find Peggy when I take back this last one. And I'm going to stay with her. He's like, damn, Kat, that's deep. What are you going to do with the shield?
00:54:29
Speaker
Oh, well, you know, I think I'm going to give it to Sam and like, I feel like I don't know what conversation like, I don't want to put it on you. It's a lot of responsibility. I really feel like Sam could be the next Captain America. And if I want to pick my successor, I want to be Sam and like, all right, cool, Captain.
00:54:46
Speaker
That was right. It was probably like a footnote. I don't even think Bucky would have fought Steve on that, especially because of the relationship they had and respect they have for one another. Like, after Steve became Cap, they were always like friends and, you know, the camaraderie was there. But you don't see Bucky busting Cap's chops like that. Like, he'll try. At the same time, it's kind of hard because he's freaking Adonis. Yes. So,
00:55:17
Speaker
I feel like, especially after he saved his life and got him out of the camp away from Hydra, like it was kind of like whatever you say goes, Steve, like I'll follow you anywhere, even if it leads to my death, which we thought it did. So I don't even think he questioned it for a second. And then to see Sam's journey throughout the series and then especially with him giving it up and he's like, dude, like he picked you and like you're supposed to be the one.
00:55:43
Speaker
He was like Morpheus. He's like, you're the one. Like, what are you talking about? You're not the one. Resurrection's aside. But yeah, and then obviously, like, I'm sure Sam talked to him about Isaiah. I know he mentioned him, like, in passing conversations, but
00:56:00
Speaker
um just even off camera like i'm sure sam said yo i want to go see i'll see isaiah who um bucky would know about and isaiah told me all this stuff that happened to him when he was in his open that the country did to him and everything and then bucky's like uh yeah we we didn't really think about all that we just thought
00:56:20
Speaker
Cool. I mean, I thought you were a good pick, man. Like, sorry, we didn't think about everything else that goes with it, but we are two white guys from Brooklyn. Yeah. And and to something else, too, I that keeps that I keep thinking about, too, is the fact that the I think a lot of people overlook is that that's not the same shield because that shield got busted up by Thanos.
00:56:45
Speaker
Right. Tony gave him. Oh, wait. No, you're right. That's a different shield because because Tony gave him. Because I think when when everybody would like a lot of people, their misconception of endgame is that he goes back into the past and he lives with Peggy in the main timeline and just never does anything and never interacts with the world.
00:57:04
Speaker
But I think what actually happened is he goes in a creates another timeline. There's this whole other timeline and talking about, you know, dream projects in the MCU, like I want to see that timeline where Cap and Peggy are starting together. And and then when he and he's got a shield on their film, one more film, because you look at that shield and the design is slightly different.
00:57:24
Speaker
You're right. You're right. And I've thought about that before, too. But it's just so easily easy to gloss over the fact that Thanos literally beat that thing to bits. And Steve's arm was literally dangling. Yeah. When when he's like Avengers, a symbol like we have that when the movie theaters across the country exploded and cheering and everything. Definitely not the same shield.
00:57:47
Speaker
Where did that shield come from? That's a great question. And I don't want some fighty answer. I want to see it. Show me how Cap got Bucky or Sam's shield. Show me. And then the last episode, one of the things I think was talking about things that were rushed through. I think one of the things that really got rushed through was
00:58:11
Speaker
um john's kind of like redemption in a way right because it's like he's you know he kills this guy with the fucking shield he gets discharged and and sam and bucky are like and then he pops up at the end and you know hey guys yeah and it's just like you know he's he's patting bucky on the back and bucky's you know joking with him about using the lincoln quote and i'm like i'm like
00:58:33
Speaker
Come on, man. Like you were just talking, you just spent like, you know, five episodes talking about how this guy is such an asshole and, you know, he doesn't deserve the shield. And now he helps you out one time and you're best friends. Like you didn't even give Sam the much, that much better than the doubt. It's like, hey, you look like my buddy Cat.
00:58:54
Speaker
He is pretty old. Maybe he thought for a second he was Steve. I know with that face, how could you get him confused? I didn't love that either. I know they wanted to kind of sit the redemption arc. They wanted to get him on that path, especially going forward into the next project to really use him on and get him into the US-Asia uniform that the Contessa gives him.
00:59:17
Speaker
And I thought for a second, I did think for a second, I was like, all right, they're going to go to route him redeeming himself and he's going to get killed. Like I thought first, like, because they kind of hinted towards towards that being like, I think one point there was where his life was on the line and then he managed to survive it or something. I forget. But I think they decided not to do that. And then, of course, they they wanted to set up the US agent. So
00:59:43
Speaker
It was cool to kind of see him be redeemed, but at the same time, it's like, dude, you should be facing some serious consequences. You should be walking these streets so easily, military or not. Like, I mean, at the very least, I mean, I'd expect like after they they finished busting up the Flag Smashers, like Bucky, like, you know, you know, punches him in the face or something. Yeah. Hit him like hit him like Hawk did Thor, man. It's like, yeah.
01:00:09
Speaker
See, I thought that was kind of a missed opportunity. And I do like that they gave them the US agent costume in this episode though. I thought that was a nice little touch at the end.
01:00:19
Speaker
Very cool, very cool. Cause I've always loved that costume ever since Steve Rogers was the captain and he wore that costume. So I'm glad that they did. And the MCU does such a good job with making the costumes true to their originals. So I was really glad to see that they got, they nailed that costume completely. So speaking of costumes, what'd you think of how they adapted Sam's costume, Captain America costume?
01:00:46
Speaker
Um, I never love Sam's comic iteration of it, I know that he was still, I mean it was still kind of based on the Falcon uniform just with caps colors and stuff, and then putting the star on it. I'd like his MCU uniform though I think, especially because one is Wakandan too so shout out to Wakanda.
01:01:06
Speaker
I actually really do like his costume. I feel like there's room for them to do different variations on it, which obviously they're going to do for toy purposes, because that's what they do with all the costumes. But I really thought it came across well on the screen. And that first time when he came to that window and he stood up that shield, man, I just couldn't help it, man. I got chills. I was like, Sam's back in America, man. So it worked for me on all facets.
01:01:34
Speaker
I thought it was, I thought, I like the design of it. I did feel like it, it, it felt like it was, it didn't quite fit Anthony Mackie right. Like, I think they do some alterations to it. Cause like in some of those, in some of those wide poses, it looks a little bit like Puffy in some parts.
01:01:51
Speaker
And so I think, you know, they're gonna have to redo that when they get ready for the fourth movie. But on that, I like the design. One of the things I, because I'm rereading the Nick Spencer, Sam Wilson, Captain America series now. And one of the things I noticed is I was, you know,
01:02:08
Speaker
I watch this last episode right before I, you know, jump back into the series, is that in the comics, his wings are just, you know, still the red wings that they are, they were when it was falcon. Here, they give it the red, white and blue color scheme, which I thought was a really nice touch. I thought I thought that was very cool, too. I thought it came off a little better.
01:02:26
Speaker
especially with him really embracing the personification of cap and being the face of America, even if America doesn't want them. I really liked the fact that they went all in like that to showcase that he's really doing this.
01:02:42
Speaker
Well, also I like too that they gave him a more comics accurate costume as the Falcon too, because up until now he's just been wearing like the black military thing, which has some red stripes on it. But now they just put them in the white and red suit. I really like that look too. Yeah, that just looked great, I thought. Like any time that he really got to put the wings out and really kind of showcase the whole costume, he really just looked bad-ass.
01:03:11
Speaker
Yeah. And same thing with what the little change they made to Bucky, how they kind of blended the Winter Soldier look with the Bucky costume from First Avenger.
01:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, that was a nice subtle knot as well, because because Bucky Bucky don't need no stinking costume. But if you're if you're going to give him some kind of uniform, then I think that's the way to go. Yeah. Well, I did love what you said back, you know, earlier, you said like he's, you know, because I know they're they're going to the White Wolf route, but I think making a nomad would be a much cooler nod to the comics. Yeah, man. You hear that MCU? We're writing your movies for you. Yeah. Yeah. Send all checks to superhero cinephiles.
01:03:51
Speaker
Please, yeah. And also we get another possible hero introduced here at the end because we get
01:04:03
Speaker
Joaquin Torres, who became the second Falcon in the comics, he gets the flight suit at the end of the fifth episode. Yeah, and that was a nice callback to the very first mission that Falcon went on in the whole series. And we get introduced to Joaquin, and we didn't know that we would see him again.
01:04:23
Speaker
I again, Phil and MCU obviously realizes it. It's important for them to continue to build that legacy and Claremont it as we were talking about where they leave things laying around where it's like, okay, well, we need a character for this. Oh yeah, well, we do have that Falcon run around now that we can just pull from somewhere. So I'm glad to see that Sam is leaving his own legacy as well and not
01:04:49
Speaker
And they're not completely abandoning the identity of Falcon or just leaving it laying around until they decide they want Bucky to be Captain America or they, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Well, they recast Steve Rogers. I mean, who knows? But I like the idea that MCU is willing to give known characters to new people. Yeah. And kind of leave that to be explored at a later time.
01:05:15
Speaker
Yeah. And what do you think of the boat fixing scene in the fifth episode? It was very cool. It was very cool. Also, I didn't mind that Bucky had a thing for Sam's sister. I thought that was kind of cute. Yeah. I thought they were kind of totes adorbs together. It felt very on brand for Bucky to kind of be like, hey, I'm Neil and your sister.
01:05:42
Speaker
You know, I'm not not the buck you would have to stoop so low but you know, it never hurts to have that in your back pocket when you're in an argument with your friend of me. So, um, I really did enjoy the boat the boat fixing scene though because it showed.
01:05:59
Speaker
Because obviously, Sam has this technology and they were government issued, obviously. But at the same time, Sam got to show off some of his know-how and him and Bucky got to work on a boat together and built their whole report together some more. And while they were still being Bucky and Sam, it was cool to see them kind of come together and figure things out to get the boat working.
01:06:23
Speaker
My only thing with I love the scene in general, my whole thing was the placement of it in the in the show, because it feels like at that point they got other shit to worry about here. Yeah. And it's a very lighthearted scene in the middle of a hey, like you said, there's some heavy things going on. Maybe we fix the boat after. Yeah. Yeah. So again, that could have been another covid rewrite where they're like, man, we got this great scene with them on the boat. Where are we going to stick in? They're like,
01:06:51
Speaker
I don't know, just throw it on episode five. We'll figure it out. Okay. And so, so maybe that's why we got it that way. Yeah. Um, I just want to mention here, uh, where do you think they're going to go forward now with, um, now we got, so now we get, see Val's recruited US agent kind of recruited Yelena, but after Hawkeye, you know, I'm not really sure how loyal she is now, but
01:07:17
Speaker
And we got Zemo in the raft, obviously. Yeah. And, you know, and Contessa name checks him too, right at the end there. So what do you think we're going to, where do you think we're going to be going with that?
01:07:32
Speaker
Well, the good thing about Captain America 4 is without this series, then we would have to do Sam's origin story to be Cap. So now they don't have to worry about that. They don't have to be like, they don't have to just jump right to it where he's immediately Captain America after Endgame. They told that story. Now they can really tell something fresh.
01:07:54
Speaker
I would like to see them just go completely opposite of what we've seen before. Like we don't necessarily have to see everybody from this. We don't need to see Zemo. I think obviously Bucky needs to be a part of it. I feel like they're interchangeable at this point.
01:08:11
Speaker
I don't I don't see us getting Wonder Soldier movies or Bucky movies so we just assume at this point that if there's a Captain America movie Bucky's gonna be in it which is fine but I I do feel like you can continue Bucky's story and then continue to tell Sam's stories Captain America um just just bring in some new rogues man like Cap has a rich rogues gallery that still hasn't really been touched I mean I know we got Crossbones and Batroc and obviously Red Skull I mean hell you could even
01:08:39
Speaker
there was multiple red skulls. You could bring back a red skull if you wanted to. We've gotten Zemo. There's, I mean, you could even, you can put Agent in it, obviously, and you can build history and you can put Agent versus Cap in different situations, depending on what it is, because Agent supposedly is gonna fix the things Captain America can't. So he sounds like he's still gonna be government funded, obviously. So he'll be on certain missions.
01:09:10
Speaker
I want to see, I think a good way to do it would be to go to the Cass Rose Gallery, but we still haven't gotten an Armor Wars story. So, I mean, if you know your Armor Wars, I know you do, Perry. When Steve was the captain, him and Iron Man actually clashed because
01:09:33
Speaker
because Captain America was trying to protect Vault Guardsmen, who was doing Tony's technology, and they came to blows over it, and Tony won in the Silver Centurion armor, which is the best Iron Man armor. There's a hot-ass take. And so I would like to see something like that, because again, we've seen some of the stuff where it's like, oh, Tony's technology is out here. Well, we are actually getting an Armor Wars series. Oh, that's right. That's right. It's going to be with, I think, Rhodey's going to be the center of that one.
01:10:02
Speaker
Let me shut up. But just to get back to my original point, just go digging through the Caps Rose Gallery and tell some cool stories that a new story featured him and have have Sam have a credible threat to go against in a movie, have Bucky in it. If you want to bring Sharon in, you can. So there's different elements you can pull from you, but you don't have to reuse every single thing from Captain America or Falcon and Winter Soldier to get there.
01:10:30
Speaker
I think it's possible we might see Sharon possibly becoming the main antagonist then. I think this series kind of sets her up perfectly for that. That's an easy thing to do. They could also do something like, especially now you got the
01:10:51
Speaker
especially this political climate right now, you could do something like an adaptation of the Two Americas story that grew bigger. When they brought back the Nazi cap, basically. Yeah, I mean, you could totally do that. They already did hydro cap a little bit in Winter Soldier. They kind of hinted towards that. But I mean, that'd be really hard to do without Steve, though.
01:11:21
Speaker
But there's just so many stories where Cap gives up the shield. We know Sam's not going to do that, but there can always be a situation where he's put on the run for some reason. I mean, that's just Cap's MO. That was always a go-to anyway, where it's like, Cap's without his country. He's on his own. He has no backup.
01:11:40
Speaker
So so there's there's a rich history they can dig. Yeah, I was going to say Secret Empire, but, you know, they kind of did a variation of that with Winter Soldier. So I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to sell a black, not a hydric cap. That would be real interesting. No, not not that Secret Empire, not the original Secret Empire. Oh, oh, got you. When he went up against the government. But OG. Yeah, yeah. But also like, you know,
01:12:05
Speaker
Like you were saying, we haven't even seen like the Serpent Society or anything like that. That would be interesting to see what they do with that. Or if they want to lean on Zemo, they could use the next Captain America movie to introduce the Thunderbolts. Yeah, I was thinking too. And then I'm wondering about what they do with like, because you've got Zemo now, you've got US Agent, you've got Yelena, Abomination's still out there as we saw in Shang-Chi.
01:12:30
Speaker
It really feels like they could they got the makings for a Thunderbolt series now. There's plenty of people that Spider-Man's put away that they could use. I mean, we we still haven't seen what happens with Scorpion that they from from Homecoming, which was in the Stinger, Michael Mando's character. They could always build off of that. There's so many to choose from.
01:12:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Thunderbolts' Path: Redemption or Chaos?
01:12:57
Speaker
Yeah, it'd be kind of cool to see if they went the Thunderbolts route, what kind of way do you think would, or would you like to see, would you like to see it do like the the hero redemption angle, like the original Thunderbolts, or would you like to see more the post-Civil War era where they were like, you know, almost like Marvel's Suicide Squad?
01:13:18
Speaker
Um, I would, I would probably want to see the hero redemption target first, especially with Zemo, um, because I don't want to see Zemo ever be completely good, but, but it would be cool to, to kind of see him take the reins of a team like that. And then also be doing his, his bad shit on the side still.
01:13:36
Speaker
I think that could be really cool, especially in the machinations of it, again, being something that can be pulled from for another TV series and movie from something Zemo did in Thunderbolts. So I would go with the redeeming the villain's idea first. Okay. I think I'd probably like to see the
01:13:54
Speaker
I lean more towards like the Suicide Squad version type. Yeah. Especially because you got, you know, Walker is kind of like the serving as like the agent flag for role type of thing. Yeah. Kind of like Luke Cage did when he was leading the Thunderbolts. I think that's one way to do it too.
01:14:10
Speaker
Yeah, you can do it either way, for sure. The only thing I think it would stop them is people would be like, man, this reminds me of Suicide Squad. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, as I was saying. That's the only reason why I think they wouldn't go there. Because who would have thought that we'd have not one, but two Suicide Squad movies prior to Marvel being able to get to Thunderbolts? Yeah, yeah. Well, it was such a weird choice when they made a Suicide Squad movie with all these rogues.
01:14:39
Speaker
before you even introduce the heroes that have put these rogues away. That's the DCEU for you, man. Let's just do it and see what happens. Yeah. People love it when MCU does that. But at least we got James Gunn, Suicide Squad, out of it, and then Peacemaker.
Final Reflections and Future Speculations
01:14:55
Speaker
Yeah. Peacemakers so crazy. Every time I, every time I'm watching that, I'm watching that show, like it gets to the intro and there's that little skip intro button. I'm like, Oh, fuck no. What are you crazy? No, skip that intro. And my daughter's getting into it now too. Like, yeah, I'm watching. She loves intros to TV shows. Like the X-Files intro, she goes back shit over. She like searched. She's like,
01:15:24
Speaker
I don't know what it is about, but she loves that intro. And then like, and I was watching Peacemaker yesterday and I had like two episodes left on of the current ones. And intro comes on in the first episode I'm watching. She stops what she's doing. She just stops and she just stares at the screen. And then later the second episode comes in. Again, same exact thing. She just stops and turns and looks at the screen as soon as she hears the music come on. Raising her right, man. That's what you're doing. Okay. We got anything else to say about Falcon and Winter Soldier?
01:15:53
Speaker
My final thoughts is, there was a lot of story in the sex up six episodes. I've already said that a lot of world building a lot of character growth from almost everybody we saw.
01:16:08
Speaker
I, for it to be the next one we saw after WandaVision, I was really, really happy with how it came out. And then Loki came out and I was like, oh my God. And so it is worthy of anyone's time to watch it. I don't care if you just watch them see you casually.
01:16:29
Speaker
I don't give you your die hard. You definitely need to watch it. I think it has something for everybody. And just outstanding performances from Mackie and from Sebastian Stan and all across the board, man. Great casting, great storytelling, and looking forward to seeing more in Captain America 4. Yeah, same here. I thought they did.
01:16:51
Speaker
I thought the main story is a little bit weak, but I thought everything else surrounding it is really strong. Like you mentioned, the casting was great.
01:17:00
Speaker
love seeing Daniel Ruhl come back as Zemo. He's just being like, I was so excited to see him come back and I never, and I wasn't expecting how much I would love him. Exactly. He's doing a little dance right now. He's doing a dance. Zemo dance. Oh God. It was so much fun. You know, getting a magic war introduced, cause I love magic war. It's such a cool location in Marvel and seeing that. Anything can happen in magic. Yeah. I mean, just like, you know,
01:17:27
Speaker
Fuck it, man. Let's get a Wolverine series set in mad report. Forget it. Forget the X-Men. I just want to see him his patch and like running the princess bar. Don't don't you play with me.
01:17:39
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, that would be, that would be awesome. And Marvel, if you're listening, you know, fuck, get us a patch series, get us a, yeah. Uh, that would be, have Zemo come in and appear as the backup dancer. Have Wolverine like walk by and smack him in the back of the head. Stop dancing, bub. You're a parent for crying out loud. Uh, but it, you know, we finally get to see, you know, we knew what was coming, but to actually see Sam put on the costume, I thought was, was, was such a great moment. It was, it was big. It was big. Yeah.
01:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, and getting the stuff with Isaiah Bradley like I had expected we get some hints of Isaiah Bradley as soon as they said Carl Lumley is going to be it. I'm like, Oh, they're doing Isaiah Bradley, they're going to do the truth. But I wasn't expecting the way they did it and I thought they
01:18:22
Speaker
did such an amazing way of incorporating that into the MCU. And yeah. And being as real as possible. Being as real as possible. Yeah. I mean, it's got some story issues, but overall everything surrounding the main story I thought was just pitch perfect. I think you can easily overlook a lot of those story problems by focusing on those other things.
01:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Because as much as the Flag Smashers didn't end up really being everything we wanted them to be, they were still quite a credible threat. I didn't love Carly all the way through. But again, her characterization, we talked about it. We were trying to make her so sympathetic. And there just was no point where everybody was like, besides Bucky, who really wanted to beat her ass. So. Yeah.
01:19:09
Speaker
So so there was that like bucket was like, oh, let me get my hands on her and say I was like, no, let me talk to her. Let's talk. He's like, oh, damn, it's whatever. But yeah, all right.
Show Promotions and Farewell
01:19:21
Speaker
Kel, you want to tell people where they can find you?
01:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, last episode, I told you you can find me at my website, which is hyphenuniverse.com. I have a YouTube channel, which is also hyphenuniverse. Just type that in. I'm on Facebook under hyphenuniverse. If you like Instagram, I'm the be hyphen on there and I'm on Twitter, be hyphen. And that's about it. And hyphen podcast group, that's where you'll find my podcast as well as other podcasts that are on our nice little network over there. So come check us out.
01:19:53
Speaker
Okay, great. And, you know, my stuff, all my, all my writing, all my, all my work can be found at PercivalConstein.com. This show, SuperheroCinephiles.com. Drop me a line if you want to be on the show, if you want to come on and talk about superhero movies. A lot of fun, guys. A lot of fun, yeah. And other than that, you know, Super Cinema Pod on Twitter and Instagram. Got a Facebook group as well.
01:20:15
Speaker
Feel free to join, feel free to rate and review us on Apple podcasts, anywhere you get your podcasts. Five stars. Five stars. Yeah. And that does it for us. And we'll talk to you next time. Kel, thanks so much for coming on again. Always fun to have you on for these. Oh man. Great, great sitting in this, in this great seat, man. Thanks for having me. Always welcome back. All right. That does it for us. And we'll talk to you next time.
01:20:37
Speaker
You have been listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at SuperCinemapod. Join our Facebook group by searching for Superhero Cinephiles, where you can interact with us and other superhero fans. If you'd like to support the show, you can become a regular supporter at Patreon or make a one-time donation through PayPal, both of which can be found at our website, SuperheroCinephiles.com.
01:20:59
Speaker
If you buy or rent any movies through the Amazon links at our site, it helps support the show. Please be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. And as always,
01:21:29
Speaker
Good night. Good evening. God bless.