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#193 - Michelle Vernal
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Best-selling women's fiction author, Michelle Vernal joins us all the way from New Zealand to talk about her journey into publishing, her writing process and the perks of being a hybrid author and having a contract with Bookouture whilst simultaneously indie publishing another series of her own.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like, you could've fixed plot holes, but if the writing... Yeah. So some readers love that, and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble. Hello, and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. With me today is a bestselling women's fiction writer chatting from the other side of the world over in New Zealand. It's Michelle Vernal. Hello. Hi, Jamie. Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:28
Speaker
Great to have you on. um Let's jump right in and talk about your latest publications. um As of recording this, ah your most recent publication was matchmaking at Omara's, which came out in July, but By the time this airs, you will have a new novel out um and that is Saving Christmas in the Little Irish Village. Tell us a little bit about the the new one, Saving Christmas and about that series, the the Irish Village series. ah The Little Irish Village series is set in a fictitious village. um it's It's sort of somewhere between Galway on the World Atlantic Way
00:01:12
Speaker
ah That's where I picture it anyway. And it's it's it's a little um a pretty little village and it's full of quirky characters. And it's one of those places where when you're young, you you sort of can't wait to get away. You don't think anything happens, but you find yourself coming back and realize actually everything happens there. um it's all about It's all about going home, I think, basically all the stories. are This will be the fifth book in the series to date.
00:01:41
Speaker
not It's not really a series that's written in any particular order. You can dip in or dip out. um And it features the five Kelly sisters who live, well, they've they've moved out in each story, but but sort of find their way coming back to the Shamrock Inn where their parents live. um And each sister has her own story. They've definitely got a romantic element, um but they've also got a strong family and community element to them.
00:02:09
Speaker
Okay, so it's a sit it's not a series in terms of like a ongoing sequential story, more ah based around the same characters in the same place. Yeah, I so i sort of feel you you you will get a better feel for the characters if you if you read them in order, but you could definitely pick up the fourth book and enjoy it without having to have read book one, two, or three. So none of them end on Cliffhanger or follow on, ah they're all standalone stories.
00:02:38
Speaker
Okay, okay, so you've published From my count it was over 30 almost 40 books. Do you know what the exact number is or have you lost count?
00:02:49
Speaker
I have actually lost count, yeah. I would have to get on my website and and actually count them up. um Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing how many authors that have, like ah a certain number of books, it feels like it you just kind of lose count and you kind of start missing things out and things like that. But um so has being an author, has that always been a sort of ah a goal, a dream for you?
00:03:12
Speaker
Honestly, I always, I never thought about it. It was um always wrote, like i've I've always written in some form or or another. I used to keep travel journals. I did a lot of traveling when I was um younger and and always kept travel journals. And I was a prolific letter writer. but um ah My family is, a lot of my family is in England. So I was always writing letters from New Zealand back to England. And and when we were traveling, I was queen of the postcards.
00:03:41
Speaker
just yeah i've always written in some form or another, whether it's poetry, not very good poetry, but poetry and um yeah journals, diaries, all that sort of thing. But I never ah never really thought about um writing as a ah career. I don't think I ever, it was just something other people did. And then when I had my children, when my oldest son was born, there was a course at our Canterbury University and it was for continuing education on creative writing.
00:04:10
Speaker
And I thought, well, I'd love to have something that I'm interested in that I can talk to people about that's not to do with babies and, and you know, all things babies. So i it was only part time so I could do it. And first thing I ever wrote on that course towards the end actually got published in the magazine and I got paid for it. And that was like, that was unbelievable. You know, somebody has actually paid me to write something. And and it was just like a light, entertaining piece about being a mum.
00:04:40
Speaker
So I did that for a little while where I was just writing these little things about whatever my boys had done and or silly things that had happened. And then ah one day I think I was probably reading one of my favorite Irish women authors. I've always been a fan of Marian Keyes, Maeve Binchey, Kathy Kelly, all those sort of all those writers. And I was reading one of those and I thought, you know, I can have a go at doing something like this.
00:05:08
Speaker
And the task seemed monumental to, you know, to go from page one to, I think I actually counted up how many, I tried to tally up how many words it would take to actually write a ah novel. um And then I started telling people I was going to do it. And once I told people I was going to have a go at writing a book and, you know, I had an idea in my mind of what I was going to write, I sort of had to do it. So I sat down and, um yeah, i I sat down and over the course of a year I actually wrote a novel.
00:05:39
Speaker
you know I thought I would send off an instant fame and fortune, and of course that didn't happen. Yes, it takes ah it's it's one of those industries where people are often like, yeah, it took 10 years for me to become an overnight success. Pretty much. Okay, so it sounds like almost like you did have a kind of passion for this, but you sort of almost fell into it. Is it strange looking back now, sort of 35 plus books in to think how far you've come?
00:06:11
Speaker
It is, and it's been, you know, it has actually been quite a long long journey because I sat down to write that that first novel I was just talking about. um One son was, he was ah he was about 15 months when I wrote that, and he just had his 19th birthday. So um um it has been a very, very long and winding road. um yeah Yeah, lots of ups, lots of downs, but always enough ups to keep going. I think, yeah, you get pretty resilient.
00:06:39
Speaker
That's it. Yeah. That's why people are always very, especially in publishing, they're like, you've got to celebrate every little win because. You do. Yeah. yeah You really do. There'll be almost as many downs as as ups in in this in this industry. um but But since then, obviously published lots and lots, the amount that you're writing and publishing now is pretty astounding. From what I can see online, you're publishing around three to four books per year.
00:07:09
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. What does what is your like weekly routine look like in terms of writing? um i'm I'm pretty fortunate now because I i do write full time. um And so that I'm very spoiled. Actually, I've got this gorgeous husband that brings me up a cup of coffee every morning. And so, you know, I pitch up in bed like Lady Mark and I start writing. And it's it's quite a nice way to start the day. So, yeah, I find um I'm usually more productive in the morning, so and you know I tend to get my most words done during the morning. And I set myself a daily word target of 1,500 words at the moment, and I'm finding that's a comfortable pace. And it it doesn't sound a lot, but I'm one of these people. I don't um i don't just straight write. I sort of i'll write a paragraph, and then I'll rework it and rework it and rework it. And so on. so I'm actually quite a slow writer.
00:08:08
Speaker
but I'm a consistent writer. And I think when you're consistently putting those words down every day, it does add up. And and you know before you know it, you've actually got your whole story. And because I'm doing that sort of editing as I go, Touchword most of the time is not major structural edits to be done when I'm finished. Okay. could because you Yeah, because you are editing whilst you go as opposed... you're You're not doing a vomit draft like a lot of people do.
00:08:36
Speaker
I'll do a page of that and then I'll go back and I'd love to actually, I i would actually love to write like that to be able to do that format draft and get the whole story out. But I've just, I've tried and it doesn't work for me. I've, I think I've tried all sorts of processes, which I think sound like they should be more linear or, um, you know, get that book down from, from start to finish so much quicker, but but it just doesn't work. I need to actually play with the words and play with the paragraph, um, and tease the story out that way.
00:09:06
Speaker
Okay. So you don't, so it's not all planned out. You don't have like a map of what the story is going to be before you start writing. Not usually, but um I'm working on something at the moment, ah which it'll come out next year. And for that one, I, I use the save the cat. um What's, what's the word I'm looking for? The save the cat. It's a writing problems. they Yeah. Yeah. and i' used that So I have actually mapped out each chapter, but then when I've sat down to start writing out those chapters, something different's happened in every single chapter. So now the story's gonna be actually very different from that original draft, but I think it still gave me a good leaping off platform. um Yeah, of ah where I wanted the story to go from the beginning instead of, because most like more times out of, more, excuse me, more often than not I sit down and I'll have a, um
00:10:06
Speaker
I'll have a thread of an idea, but I really don't know where it's going to go until I start writing. So I'm very much ah a pincer. Okay, right. That's interesting because I would have thought given the amount of books you're writing per year that you would need to be planning everything to kind of keep that level of of efficiency going. Well, I think because I write a long running series, which you mentioned matchmaking at Omara's,
00:10:31
Speaker
and That's an independently published series that I write and those books come in they're about 60,000 words in length so they're not on the longer side um and I try and do two of those a year and those ones are very much they're very character driven so I mean there really isn't much of a plot other than where they're going to go in that story location wise or um perhaps a character they're going to meet or something but the it's the characters people seem to enjoy and sort of situations they get into. And those just unfold as I write. So um those books, they're they're a bit different. The ones that I'm writing for book a tour, like The Little Irish Village, um I've got to have a bit more of a but more of an idea where I'm going to go with it from start to finish because you know my editor likes to know before I even begin the book. you know Or a they'll have suggestions as to what they think.
00:11:27
Speaker
yeah um should sort of pan out a bit more in in this particular story. But still, ah I'm winging it for a lot of the way. it's its I think it's maybe because my story is a conversation led so often that I have to wait for the conversations to you know to play out in my head when I'm writing for the story to unfold properly.
00:11:49
Speaker
Oh, okay. ah Sorry, my thing disconnected for a second there. Okay, amazing. What were we talking about? We were talking about your process and planning and things like that. Or lack of. Or lack of, yes. yeah The other thing I was interested in is, and this is big in romance and women's fiction space, but other genres as well, but those two Seasonality plays like a really big driver on publishing. When you were like thinking of a concept for a book or planning out a book, do you have like a season in mind for when this book is going to come out? No. Bookattu does and and they've been excellent um for that for me, um but I i never ah never really think about it. and
00:12:35
Speaker
If I was more organized, perhaps, I would think, oh, I'll do a St. Patrick's Day story for the Omara's. But it just never seems timing wise, things like that don't work out. But I do have a St. Patrick's Day story with um one of my little Irish village stories. So those books have got a much stronger um seasonal f feel. Three of them are actually Christmas books. So, you know, they they're full of all things Christmas as well in this little Irish village.
00:13:05
Speaker
Okay. So the and those are the ones that you publish with bookature, whereas the other ones you publish independently. h What's it like doing that, sort of having but having one sort of going through a contractor thing and then the ah this other series, which presumably is why you're able to put out so many books per year is because obviously the independent ones you can do as and when you want to. I can swap them in more around.
00:13:33
Speaker
with what what but I'm doing with Book of Chua. And i like I like the variety. I really like the variety of being um independent and having having a bit of control over how those books are marketed, um all that side of it. But then I love having somebody else do that sort of thing as well with Book of Chua. And you know they've they've bought new readers to the table for me as well as having someone one to bounce ideas off and, you know, because writing can be, it's quite a solitary thing. um So I like that that contact that I get with Booker Chua because they're very they very supportive as publishers and very um great with communication with you all the way through. um So I really enjoy that side of it. So it's just a really nice balance of both worlds. And I think i think because I'm independent, I have a better understanding of what is happening
00:14:30
Speaker
you know with my traditionally published books as well, that perhaps I would have if I'd gone straight from being unpublished to traditionally published. Yeah, it's definitely something that if you just, people who have just done traditional publishing, I mean, there's no reason why they can't do, you know, their additional research or speak to their agent if they have one. But I think, yeah, one of the things that keeps people away from independent publishing, self-publishing that their writing is because there's a lot to learn in that space. And like you having done that, obviously, yeah, gives you a great glimpse into what bookiture are doing with with on those signs of that side of things.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, and and it can all be. like Well, I'm not. Book a tour. They've got teams full of, you know, experts that do things. But if you're interested in self-publishing, there's so much information and so many courses online um that that teach you the basics of getting a book out in the world. um And I just that side of it is also it's really fascinating and really interesting. And I think because and otherwise I would just be, you know, I'd be writing all day every day to have that other interest and um aspect of my work. I really enjoy it. Yeah. And when you're doing the self-publishing, the indie publishing stuff, do you have like a little sort of um freelance team that you work with, like a cover artist or an editor or anything? I do. Yep. I have an amazing cover artist that I use and um he he he sort of came up with the
00:16:02
Speaker
the theme for my Omara series. So all the box lock uniform, but, you know, point of difference with each one. So branding, yeah he came up with the branding for that. And I've had a few ups and downs with finding an editor, um you know, trying to book them in on your schedule. It's not always that easy for me to know exactly when I'm going to have the book ready, but I have got a lady now that I'm working with and she's brilliant. So I'm hoping that continues to work out.
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I guess, you know, they are, and I just thought freelance editor especially obviously needs to be working all the time and well they can't necessarily reserve yeah they have a space when you might or might not have a book ready for them. They're not sitting there waiting for me to, to your name now and say, Oh, I think I'm going to have that finished next week.
00:16:50
Speaker
yeah Yeah, they're not on retainer for you. no um Before we head over to the desert island, I wanted to ask, so women's fiction, a very competitive space. What advice would you give to new writers who are looking to start writing within that genre? I would say, um i think I think what worked for me initially ah was Writing a series, for starters, I think it's it's easier to to build a, you know, to attract readers that will continue to read your books if it's series fiction. And I also think that that your own voice, um be true to who you are when you're writing it. don't Don't get too sidetracked by what you think is popular or how somebody else writes or um
00:17:46
Speaker
any of that sort of stuff. you've just got to You've just got to listen to your own voice and your own head and be true to yourself. And I think that's why Omaris has been so popular because those characters and those stories people are ah quite fond of because they just literally are a lure unto themselves. And I'll just let them do what they like on the page within reason. And I think that comes across in the stories, that authenticity of voice. And yeah, I think that's really important. just be yourself with your writing. Yes. Chasing trends is a dangerous path to go down for sure. um Especially when I always think that people say that voice is like a very important part of being an author and kind of being successful. And I think
00:18:32
Speaker
Some people, you can chase a trend and potentially get one really high concept book and maybe that will get published. But if you don't have if you haven't found your voice and you haven't got that consistent kind of theme throughout, your next books, your follow-ups are going to struggle because you know you don't have that through point. You don't have that drawer as an author if you haven't yet found your voice. that's Yeah, that's true.
00:18:56
Speaker
And that brings us to the desert island question um as always. So, Michelle, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you wish that it would be? Well, I think i think that I would probably pick Maeve Binchey, Light a Penny Candle. um I've read so many good books that I couldn't even, you know, it's very unfair to choose one. But that one I would choose because I remember when I first moved to Christchurch, the city where I live now and I didn't know anyone and I went to the local library and I got that book out and I'd never read any Maeve Bintry books before and I took that book home and as soon as I settled down to read it I felt like I'd sort of stepped into a world with new friends and you know feeling a bit lonely and that all that went away and that's yeah that's why I would pick that because I wouldn't feel lonely on my desert island if I had
00:19:55
Speaker
ah I may have meant your book to read. Oh, that's nice. and ah Nice to have a little backstory to that as well. Go to a new place, find yourself in one of those books, meet new people, or at least be reminded of being okay and settling into a new place. o um So next up, I have some questions about finding the right balance of staying on genre whilst keeping things fresh.
00:20:19
Speaker
also about um the book deal with Booker Cho, how that came about, and the processes of working with the digital first publisher. yeah But that will all be in the extended episode available through the Patreon.
00:20:30
Speaker
um So it can be very useful to get that kind of feedback. um But that brings us to the to the to the end of the episode. but So thank you so much, um Michelle, for coming on the podcast and chatting with me and telling me all about your your kind of journey and your experiences with writing and publishing. It's been really really awesome chatting with you.
00:20:47
Speaker
Oh, thank you, Jamie. Thank you so much for listening to me and I hope, um you know, I hope I haven't waffled on too much with my answers. No, it's been great. It's been really interesting. You've got such an interesting publishing journey and like you're doing at the moment what I think a lot of people dream of doing where they have the book contract as well as the the indie publishing both going concurrently. The hybrid author is a very popular thing I think nowadays.
00:21:15
Speaker
It is a nice place to be and honestly, you know, all it it just takes. um Just don't don't give up if that's where you want to be. Don't give up because, you know, you can get there.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michelle's latest book, Saving Christmas in the Little Irish Village, will be out by the time this airs. And if you want to keep up with what Michelle is doing, you can find her on Facebook at Michelle Vernal Novelist. To support this podcast, like, follow, and subscribe. Get the extended episodes ad-free on Patreon, and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again, Michelle, and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.