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Skyrunning with Lukas Mann
5.7k Plays3 months ago
The Uphill Athlete podcast returns with a special episode discussing the newest training plans release, the Uphill Athlete Skyrunning plan. Alyssa welcomes mountain athlete and influencer Lukas Mann to the podcast to discuss his experiences working with Alyssa as she developed the skyrunning plan around his training for the Minotaur Skyrace. The two discuss Lukas’ background in mountain sports and his transition to adding trail running as a staple to his mountain toolbox. They break down Lukas’ training cycle, the challenges and growth he felt using the plan, and his experience in the Minotaur Skyrace. Tune in to learn more about the background of building training plans and to hear about a fantastic mountain athlete challenging himself in a new discipline. You can check out the plan in the Uphill Athlete Training Peaks store and hit the link in the bio to learn more.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/training-plans/running/trail/tp-488866/trail-running-skyrunning
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Transcript
Introduction and Collaboration with Lucas Mann
00:00:12
Speaker
Hi everyone, welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. I am your host today and I'm excited to bring on a guest who has, we've been working together for quite a few months now and he is an all around mountain person and we're here to talk about Kind of a collaboration between the two of us to bring a new training plan out to you all.
Lucas Mann's Background and Mountain Sports Journey
00:00:42
Speaker
And here, Lucas Mann, who is my guest today, talked about his experience with the plan and also why we developed a skywriting plan. So, Lucas, thanks for being on the podcast today. Yeah, thanks for having me, Alyssa. Looking forward to it. It's been a good couple months. Yeah. it's so Well, just right before we got on, you were even saying how things have, um like how much your capacity for vert and just getting out and moving with efficiency through mountains has increased. So I'm excited to dig into that. and But first, I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself, where you're from, and also what got you into mountain sports, because you're kind of an all-around mountain
00:01:29
Speaker
fiend, we'll say. I like being out there. Yeah, yeah. um Yeah, so I've been kind of going into the mountains consistently for um yeah around five years, so not ah not a crazy amount of time, but I conveniently moved out to British Columbia on the west coast of Canada um in approximately that same timeframe. So I grew up overseas in Indonesia and really I really enjoyed volcanoes over there. That was really cool. and There's not the same sort of alpine environment and feel there, but but there's big verdant, big mountains. So that was really kind of my introduction. My family used to travel and go hike a fair bit.
00:02:06
Speaker
and that was That was kind of my introduction to being really enthralled by this sense of being able to climb really high, really in a relatively short amount of time. And then moving to BC really um opened the door to a lot more and styles of ah of adventure. I think up until that point, it was kind of just limited to hiking for the most part, because there wasn't much of anything else. um but But moving here really kind of Yeah, that whole world just changed. so i you know On a pretty regular basis, I kind of hop between in the winter, I i splitboard a lot or and kind of getting into ice climbing and then a lot of kind of general general mountaineering.
Transition to Trail Running and Its Impact
00:02:45
Speaker
I'm a um a mediocre climber. I'm not not great, but I really really enjoy alpine climbing and just kind of being able to get out there and I think just being able to watch that. um
00:02:57
Speaker
My capacity slowly expand as you learn different things. And there's a lot of there's a lot of crossover between things like trail running and things like mountaineering. there's you know There's actually a lot more, I guess, commonality between the two then than I think one would assume. So it's been really cool to add this now component of endurance training and and and more consistency to what I already enjoyed, which was just being out in the mountains. Love it. And you mentioned trail running, but what brought that onto your radar? Were you doing a lot of trail riding kind of in the last five years or um is that something that's been a bit of a newer endeavor for you?
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. i I really haven't been a runner for very long at all. I've really enjoyed moving. I've been very active for quite a while. I played um basketball pretty competitively up until my first year of university. And I think that I've always enjoyed being able to move well, but ah the actual sport of trail running wasn't really a part of my life at all until about I really only started training about six months ago consistently, um but which seems now looking back a little a little crazy. But and but i've I think the background that I had in the mountains really helped prepare me for it. i
00:04:15
Speaker
I really always disliked road running. I i still do. i i I have a pretty strong vendetta against going and pounding pavement for a long period of time. i just i I love that other people love it. I think it's really really great. I just can't stomach it very well. i just you know If it's a nice day and I'm running on the road, I'm like, man, it could be somewhere way way more enjoyable and and not hurt my body as much.
Sky Running and Training for the Minotaur Race
00:04:38
Speaker
So um I think I kind of always almost looked down a little bit on on running just because it it didn't feel like it facilitated the kind of experiences I wanted to have. like i I didn't love the repetitive like you know run through suburbs and look at you know with the mountains off in the distance. It just didn't really appeal to me. But then realizing that trail running isn't actually nearly as aggressive as it might seem. And then there's a lot of really cool ways to kind of slowly ease your way into it. So I wouldn't, looking back now, I guess I wouldn't say I'd necessarily ease my way into it. But
00:05:07
Speaker
um I ended up signing, long story short, I ended up signing up for um a race called the Minotaur back in october and late October. and I had seen it on, I think on social media, through people that I knew that had spoken very highly of it. and It appealed to me a lot because it it was ah technically a trail race, but it's part of the Sky Running World Series. so um characterized by big vert, kind of shorter distances, like usually sub-marathon, but big vert and and relatively technical trails. So um the Minotaur seemed to be one of the more technical ones even within that circuit, and and it was only about, it was a day's drive from where I lived, so it was relatively accessible for me. So anyway, signed up for it, not so much, I mean I was quite excited for the race, but I think the goal was more so to um have a
00:05:53
Speaker
an end date in mind with a you know ah race that I had to be able to run and to help that facilitate you know a couple months of training and then be ready for summer alpine objectives. um But in the process, I think I really discovered I'd really enjoyed the training for it. i i I found it a lot more, it fit a lot better into my lifestyle than I i thought it would. and So yeah, that's kind of how the whole idea came about. And now, you know I guess a month after the race, I'm feeling very thankful I did it and and ready to kind of continue to integrate that into my lifestyle to to some degree for sure. Yeah, it's been fun to see because I still, I think you're, yeah, you're still attached to me on train peaks and sometimes I'll just be like, I wonder if Lucas is still doing some running and I'll check in, I'll be like, ah, yes, definitely the the running bug is still there. So it's it's fun to see that that has continued um forward and
00:06:49
Speaker
um I think it's, you know, it's such a, I guess it's such a great way that that was like the race was a catalyst for this to really incorporate in your training. And I think what's also fun from um my perspective of watching you grow is that When you come from a mountain background, like you weren't starting from scratch at all. I mean, maybe you hadn't been running as much, but you you understand what it means to have big mountain days. You have a lot of leg strength, a lot of capacity to go uphill, and all of that um I think contributes really well.
00:07:25
Speaker
Like, they work really well together, as you were saying. And I think that running can be intimidating. um It can also feel like, oh, yeah, I've got to run a marathon at this pace to be considered a runner. And I liked the way you said um trail running.
Fitness as a Safety Tool in Mountain Activities
00:07:42
Speaker
Gosh, what did you say specifically? Like, trail running wasn't basically as um strict as you thought it or running wasn't as strict ah because trail running involves a lot of hiking and a lot of um just you know running is I think almost the wrong word for what we do in the mountains it can be scrambling it can be almost climbing you know all of those pieces totally and I think that really is what
00:08:10
Speaker
You know, my, my end goal, if there is one with all this is, uh, I think really to just be a more, more capable mountain goer in a sense, right? Like I think, I think speed.
00:08:22
Speaker
The longer you're out there, the more you realize speed is a pretty crucial component of of safety in a lot of ways. And I care less about having the fastest times out there. And I care a lot more about just being feeling really competent. And and not just speed for the sake of being out and back really quickly, but also for the um you know that the the fitter you are, the the more easily you'll be able to tackle certain objectives. And and I think when you're in technical terrain, if I can you know get to the crux of the route and I'm six hours in, but I feel you know like 75% strength versus getting to that same point in the same amount of time, but being 30% and completely gassed, it's a really big difference. And that plays a pretty big role in your ability to move safely as well. So I find even even more so than just being able to go hammer really quick times, I think,
00:09:15
Speaker
being able to feel in control. um Kind of that this overall like trail running fitness thing has played a really big component in my ability to go out there and and do things that used to feel, I think, a but like a bit more of a stretch and and feel like, oh wow, no, I can actually do this you know very reasonably in it and a pretty appropriate amount of time and not feel like I'm i'm stressed about time or rushing or anything. Yeah, it's I truly think fitness is your one of your biggest safety tools out there. um Whether it's you know being able, like say in Colorado where you have storms that come in most afternoons, being able to get an objective done in the morning and have plenty of time to come in um before that storm hits, or getting out of rock hazard. Um, before things warm up, you know, there's just so many pieces that it's not so much, it's not an ego aspect of, Oh yeah, I'm just fast. This is great. Like look at how fast I am. It is so much of you just have the capacity to handle so much more to deal with unexpected circumstances. And I always think of it of like, man, I want an ultra runner or someone who can move quickly through the mountains on my team. If something happens because man, they can get out quickly and
00:10:30
Speaker
get help. yeah totally I think it there are very few circumstances in which being fitter is a detriment to your safety. I think it's always going to increase that We talk a lot about you know the the margin for error that you have. And there's all sorts of things you can add to increase that margin for error, like having an inreacher, leaving a trip plan with people, or are you know wearing a helmet, or just these basic things. But I think one of the things that maybe isn't talked about as much, or or maybe it isn't in some circles, but I think I didn't have this perception of speed and and just general fitness being a really big component of safety. um And it's certainly not the only one. But I do think in the long run, the more
00:11:13
Speaker
you can contribute to your overall fitness and your ability to um you know put your body through ah what would be you know kind of akin to a really big race. um If you can do that you know pretty consistently when you're on the mountains by yourself or with friends, you're just going to walk away feeling far safer, I think, more often than not in the long run because you're not pushing yourself to the max all the time. And there will be days for that, but it doesn't it allows you to have less and less of those, I think.
00:11:42
Speaker
100%. Yeah, and honestly, overall, it's probably just a lot healthier of, ah you know, you start stacking the big day after big day, your hormones get really unhappy and sleep can get disrupted. And yeah, that can that can really add up for sure. Totally.
00:12:00
Speaker
So going back to October, you signed up for Minotaur. What was your plan to get yourself ready for the race?
Training Experiences and Enjoyment of Outdoor Activities
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah, good question.
00:12:15
Speaker
um but Quite frankly, I didn't have ah a concrete plan. I think um I knew a few things about the Minotaur. I knew it was long. I knew it was steep and involved a lot of ah lot of up and down. um And I knew it was was reasonably technical as far as trail races go, anyway. um I wasn't concerned about the technicality. And I think i come you know with my i think background in the mountains, that none of the terrain really was out of my comfort zone whatsoever.
00:12:45
Speaker
um And my ability to, I think downhills always, like i I don't, I've never really struggled with downs as much. i've Even, even to date, like even on the race, that was kind of the only times that I passed people or felt like I was keeping up with people was fast downhill and then like technical ridge stuff, everything else, the uphills, it was so embarrassing. I'd go like flying down these downhills and it was really great. And I didn't, I never like really blew through my quads, which was really nice. Like even at the end, I never really blew through them.
00:13:14
Speaker
um But then, you know, you'd you'd hit the next hill and I'd be out of it. And all these people would come and pass me again and be like, Oh, wow. It's like this yo, yo back and forth. But, um, so anyway, all I, all I knew was, you know, I think the, the technical components of the race were were pretty.
00:13:30
Speaker
pretty comfortable for me. it was It was really just going to come down to the fitness thing. And um and i i didn't have ah I certainly wouldn't say I had a plan when I signed up for it. I think I kind of gradually started to form a bit more of a plan. But obviously when I connected with you, then that that became a far more concrete reality, which which made my life a lot easier.
00:13:47
Speaker
I'm glad. Yeah, so Lucas was going to use our big VRT plan, which is designed more for 50K and up. And so when he was working with Training Peaks, and I think Training Peaks reached out to us, like, hey, you're going to use the big VRT plan. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, let's not do that. This is such a great reason. We've been dying, like I've been dying to make a sky running plan.
00:14:15
Speaker
let me work with Lucas and we can kind of like come up with this or use this as the basis of creating a sky running plan. um So it was really fun to have Like writing a plan is, it's it's fine, but it's a lot of solo time and training peaks just like putting your head down. So it was way more fun to have the interaction with you of um building that plan out and kind of seeing how it was working.
00:14:48
Speaker
um as you moved through it. But also just to give the audience an idea of what the Minotaur is. So it's a 30, I just got the stats, like 33 kilometers, um which is about 18 ish miles, 19 miles.
00:15:07
Speaker
and and yeah I know I'm like asking the Canadian the conversion to miles um I think that's about 19 miles and then it is 2900 meters which yeah or the stats completely off because often they're off are like it was more like 35k and then the stats most people's watches registered over 3000 meters over I think some were a little bit less but it it seemed to come out here on that so Definitely, you know, that'd be over over 10,000 feet of c climbing. So it's a lot of a lot of up and down Yeah, that's a lot for a short um for For that 20 miles and 10 k's a lot. Oh man, it pack ed packs a bunch. Yeah for sure
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah. ah So that's kind of what we're looking at. And sky running is typically de defined between about 20K to sometimes again to 50K. And they're generally like that 2000 meters and above yeah um type profile. So they're, they're considered mountain ne or they they are mountainous. That's kind of the defining factor of it.
00:16:13
Speaker
um So as we started working together, what did you find were the challenging pieces of training and also what workouts were you like when you got in the race? Did you feel, oh yeah, those were really some kind of key workouts that helped me? Yeah, good question. So I think um but volume was was really big. I think, I mean,
00:16:42
Speaker
correct me if I'm wrong, right my sense of of training for a race like this is that if you don't have the volume, you aren't going to do much. like You can certainly improve on a plan by adding in different things like speed workouts and intervals and strength training and whatnot, but um certainly didn't feel like anything really substituted for the just ah simple act of getting out there and going uphill and going downhill and doing it a lot. um So that was, you know I think,
00:17:09
Speaker
Even your help in putting together a timeline that you know started at a you know a reasonable ah reasonable spot and then kind of gradually built over time made made a lot of sense. and that that took a lot of It took a lot of stress off my mind because I didn't necessarily have to worry about setting those numbers. I just had to make sure I got them done. um And so that was definitely a really helpful ah part of the plan was being able to start and then look through the app and look up ahead and say, OK, you know, every week I'm going to be, for the most part, building pretty consistently and then peaking a couple of weeks before the race and whatnot. So I think volume was definitely there's. Yeah, I mean, when you go from not
00:17:50
Speaker
I've always spent, I would say, a reasonably large amount of time in the mountains, but um not 10 to 15 hours a week of of consistent training. and so that was probably the biggest um
00:18:05
Speaker
Uh, not a shock to the system, but it was definitely like, that was the biggest adjustment. It was okay. Now I'm, I have to be used to, you know, putting in every day for the most part, a a good chunk of my day into this. Um, but it was awesome. It was really, I really enjoyed it. i I found, I ran a little bit before that, but pretty sparsely and, and I just never liked it because I was running on roads and it wasn't that fun. And so having the, you know, the objective in mind and saying, no, I need to justify, um, you know,
00:18:34
Speaker
the drive to the trailhead and then the time spent out on the trail and then the time back and it always ended up being something I really look forward to or or almost all the time i I really look forward to it. So I think that was the wonderful thing about about this is that it never really felt like a ton of work. And I mean, there's obviously work work involved in going up and down mountains, but it there was never a part of it where I was like, oh man, I don't even really know if I want to be doing this long-term. Like it was always like, no, this is this is totally worthwhile. And it is definitely taking me to a place where I'll be far more capable, not just for the race, but in general. So ah certainly there were things like like interval workouts and and speed workouts and uphill like uphill intervals were a good challenge. And I think that really helped a lot.
00:19:13
Speaker
um i yeah they I mean, everything was really great. like I think it all seemed to work well together to then lead towards the the final the final race, which I ended up being able to do pretty well. so yeah Nice. No, I, I think that that's a really good indicator that you were in a great spot to be able to do it.
Mental States in Running and Climbing
00:19:38
Speaker
You know, obvious, like the fact that you're saying, yes, it's hard, obviously, but I was excited to do it. I wanted to do it that. Yeah. It's when you start feeling like, Oh my gosh, I, this just doesn't feel worth it. I'm not there. It's like, maybe we want to reassess, but that's awesome that you felt, um, and and you had some awesome runs.
00:19:59
Speaker
Seemed like you found a great trail running community um for some of the longer runs, so you weren't doing those so low, because that can get mentally a bit draining. really like I have a four and a half hour run ah this weekend. i actually gone to interestingly i found ah i don't even know if i did many of my longer runs with I actually think I ended up doing more of my longer runs alone than I i did I think some of the shorter ones I did with. Oh, okay. Good point. Yeah. I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed the long runs alone. That's just me. I don't know. I, I found the moment. I mean, I'm not, I'm not way too, but some people are like, Oh, I can't. That's just a long time in my head. I'm like, no, that's, that sounds like a great long time in nature. It's a long time, but it, uh, I don't know. I think, I think the bigger thing was just making sure it didn't feel
00:20:45
Speaker
Uber repetitive, so picking trails that were maybe loops or not. I don't know. I find it excessive when people just do laps of the same thing over and over and over and over again, um which is I think sometimes that's just all you got, which is fine. But um I tried to make a point of any longer workouts, making sure I wasn't just like doing the same trail over and over over again.
00:21:02
Speaker
um But no, I i don't know. And I never really listened to anything. like i'm not a I love podcast and music, but not really on the trails. So um it was a good time. Yeah, you know there's lots of time to think and ponder and enjoy the the place that you're in. And I think that's part of the reason why trail running feels so much more sustainable of an activity in the long run, because I i do just like being out there. it doesn't always There's obviously work involved, but it doesn't always feel like you know perpetual grind. Like, well, OK, we're just going to have to work really hard and get through this. A lot of it's really enjoyable.
00:21:33
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And actually, I don't think I've ever asked this question before. But how do you compare your mental space when you're doing, say, more of an Alpine objective versus trail running? and Great question. um I find uphills are always um I mean, they're always slower than the downhills for obvious reasons. And you're not um moving particularly fast. And you're also not, for the most part, you're not wanting to to blow up. So you're kind of trying to maintain your rate of output at like pretty moderate. You don't want to be bombing uphill for for very long. um So I find the uphills are are really great to sit and think. And I find i found my my mind wanders a lot. So um that's different from Alpine stuff. But I was actually, I was out on the
00:22:34
Speaker
<unk> last two nights ago and it was a really beautiful kind of fourth, fifth class ridge scramble, super fun, and then a long kind of bomb back down to the car.
00:22:45
Speaker
and I was chatting with my friend after and and kind of comparing the um sensation of like really fast technical downhill to almost a bit like the flow state and climbing where you're you're so zoned in on on what you're doing that time passes like that. And um there's a fair bit of skill involved too. Like ah fine I because I've only been training consistently for, um you know, for this sort of thing for six, eight months, i' I'm not,
00:23:15
Speaker
really anywhere close to where i I can be, I think from a, certainly from an uphill perspective and even downhill, but because I have spent so many so many days in the mountains, I find my downhill skills are are pretty fine. um So I get a ton of joy just like bombing down steep technical trails. And that was even in the race that kind of felt like one of my bigger four days and was able to pass people on that. um And so I would compare that a lot to like that same flow state you get when you're climbing and you feeling a little gripped and and really like locked in on what you're doing.
00:23:46
Speaker
um I really tend to enjoy the, this is probably like every every person in this space is like probably slightly ADHD, but I really love the like that like insane focus that you feel when you really just like, you know, there's always a consequence involved. Like you trip on a route going fast down hell and it's not. Oh yeah, it's going to hurt. Yeah. You know, you take a whip in the alpine, it's really not pleasant. So, you know, the the introduction of potential consequence seems to lend itself to ah that kind of flow state where you're really zoned in. Whereas I don't find that on the uphill, you know, you're not, you're correct, it's not that big of a deal. But um I really find I like the downhill a lot, which is weird because I think a lot of people really don't, but it's always just been a really enjoyable part of the sport to me. And I think that's part of why I love these big, steep technical trails we have around here is because you do get the opportunity to really fly down, which is really fun.
00:24:38
Speaker
that I love that. Yeah, that makes total sense. And I am also a technical downhill lover. Like that is just the most fun part of any race to me. And that I am also at least partially ADHD. And yeah it it is that extreme focus and it does have consequence for sure. With the yeah, similarly to that to the climbing and the scrambling. I always find with And maybe this is more experience ah that I still need. But with the the Alpine aspect, there is just a level of oddness that you have to have. And it's like I can kind of let my guard down once I'm you know out of whatever that danger zone is. Whereas trail running, definitely on some of the technical downhills, but I feel that my mind's a lot more at ease in trail running because I don't have to have that edge of like, oh, there's a lot of exposure here. Like, oh, if I, you know,
00:25:37
Speaker
this could be really consequential if I make a wrong move. So that's I always find when I when we do a lot in the Alpine or do a lot where there's a fair amount of consequence to actions, when I go back to trail running, it's like my mind can just relax. Okay, I know what I'm doing. Probably not gonna like fall off this cliff. We're probably okay. Yeah, I totally totally resonate with that. And I think it's, um,
00:26:07
Speaker
Yeah, I was chatting with, well, I think, yeah, we chatted before, but Adam Campbell and he's a phenomenal athlete up in squash. And we were chatting after the race and he was saying one of the reasons he loves endurance sports so much is, and he's a big mountain guy and and you know climbs and skis and does everything way cooler than I do. But also hearing from his perspective,
00:26:28
Speaker
um the outlet of endurance athletics and and training is crucial, he he said. and And I would agree. it's it's To some degree, it's kind of crucial when when you do go into the mountains because there are days when it just doesn't make sense, um especially in the winter.
Endurance Sports as a Safer Alternative
00:26:47
Speaker
But even in the summer, I mean, there's there's always going to be times where you don't belong on that mountain and you either need to turn around or maybe even don't even go. And for people that, you know, like probably like us, who really like to move and struggle sitting around,
00:27:01
Speaker
um That can be a bit of a dangerous thing if you don't have any other kind of sort of outlet. And if your only outlet is like, I need to get up high into the Alpine. And I do love that. And I certainly, that's usually a ah pretty big goal. But I think what i'm what I'm finding is there's a lot of joy to be found in the, I guess, the pursuit of speed or or fitness or ability and in that sense. And not just, can I go climb hard and and do really cool, scary, exposed things in the mountains or ski really big lines. um But on the days where that doesn't make sense, I can also go have a really hard workout up the local grind and and push hard and and feel really satisfied and and like I've spent my time well and used my energy well. And so that's this you know this this period of time, the last handful of months.
00:27:47
Speaker
um has really opened up that world to me where i I've started to see more of that. And you you know, you pay more attention on social media and you read more stuff and it's like, oh, wow, there's a really cool world here where it, you know, you don't necessarily need to always be sending really hard to go, go really, you know, really enjoy yourself in the mountains at a, you know, below a thousand meters or, you know, below the, the tree line. And and that's still totally fine. And I, having the ability to know when, when it's appropriate to do you know each of those activities I think is is a really cool skill that I'm starting to learn to appreciate. Yeah and i I'm glad that trail running has given you that alternative um because I think
00:28:34
Speaker
It is, it's very wise to understand that like, yeah, sometimes the mountains are just saying, not today. And to realize like, oh, I can get joy or or to feel that you can get joy um from other aspects or kind of get that that feeling of like, yeah, I had a good hard workout. And I think the The thing I've always struggled with, with mountain sports, that's a bit different than trail running is that oftentimes, with well, with trail running, a lot of times it's like, Oh, you go longer, you go faster, you add more vert. You know, there's a lot of, there's things that you can increase, um, to increase the difficulty of it. And unfortunately with a lot of mountain sports, when you increase difficulty, that often means increasing risk and
00:29:21
Speaker
And that's the the tough part, I think, is that um like, okay, I'm going to do the next hardest thing. And oftentimes the next hardest thing means something that's that that's much more consequential. And yeah so I think it's fun and not that this is a you know, it's turned into a little bit more of a raw, raw trail running, but I just think it's great of your point of like, you could have that satisfaction of like, I did something hard and it felt really rewarding, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that I was pushing a grade or I was taking on, um you know, a riskier mountain endeavor. so Totally. Well, and like Steve's talked about this, and I think a lot of people have as touched on this point that
00:30:08
Speaker
um there's a really big difference between simple and complex environments. And um when you are making a regular habit of being in complex environments for extended periods of time and pushing hard, and the chances that something will happen eventually do just go up. And there are obviously ways of mitigating that risk, but when the complexity is out of your control, um Yeah, I think there's there's definitely cause to to ask those questions of, you know, are there other things I can be doing with my time on the days where it maybe doesn't make sense to be out there that are still really worthwhile and and maybe in the long run actually contribute to my safety in the Alpine anyway, which I think is the case with this, you know, endurance with endurance sports and trail running and in particular. And so i I definitely would I would definitely echo that like there's, you know, like I was mentioning this before, but
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah, two days ago, I went out on a ah really fun. It's not super long. It's like 10, I think it's 10 kilometers. So what is that? Like six miles? Like pretty, pretty sure. Um, 1100 meters of earth. So 30, 3,500 feet of gain. Not too crazy, but it's. beautiful and beautiful, rude bit of bushrocking. And then this awesome long ridge traverse with third, fourth, and like maybe a little bit of fifth involved. And then and you get to bomb back down to the car. I remember the first time I did it and it took, we weren't trying to push hard, but it took five and a half hours and and we loved it. And it was you know a great half day out. um But then I went up again two days ago. This is maybe two years after the first time I did it. And we went car to car in like two hours and 40 minutes or something like that. and
00:31:51
Speaker
and and didn't really feel like we were pushing that hard. And it was really incredible to realize, oh, we think we had a long day, like Sunday, beautiful day, went to church, had coffee, went and dumped in the lake, had dinner, drove up, left the trailhead at 6.30 and we're back at the car by like just after nine and we're home by 10. Like that was, that was mind blowing. And and that was really cool. And it, it really, you know, it it really hammered home the point that like, wow, it, it,
00:32:21
Speaker
contributes to these really awesome adventures where I don't necessarily have to go, I mean, yes, it's the Alpine, there's maybe a bit of risk, but it's it's summer and the rock was solid, and it wasn't really a ah very risky route. um It would have been easy to go do something with a fair bit more exposure and risk and whatever, but it was also just as satisfying to go do at Earth that I've done a couple of times, but do it way faster. And that was really cool too. Yeah. No, I love that. i think I think it's so easy, especially in the exposure that we have to so many people um to get caught up in like the bigger, faster, higher game and to check back in with like, no, what is satisfying to me? What is meaningful um in this moment? And it does not have to be always like pushing that yeah edge. But yeah, so you trained
00:33:16
Speaker
Trained running, you're ready to go. How did the race go for you? Yeah. Great question. Um, the race was really awesome. I loved it. Uh, it was a really stinking cool atmosphere. It was a beautiful place. I don't know if you've been to, um, that area of the
Minotaur Race Experience and Lessons Learned
00:33:34
Speaker
Rockies. It's kind of like out here on the coast, we have the, the sea to sky highway that goes from Vancouver up to Whistler. And, um, you kind of get the the sea on one side and the mountains on the other and it's phenomenal. Well, the crow's nest pass is kind of like prairie to sky. Like it's, it's right on that fault line where.
00:33:49
Speaker
um The Rockies kind of jut up out of the the plains and it's beautiful in a very different way um And so the the route follows it's I think technically like three separate mountains or at least three big climbs No, it is one two. Yeah. No, it's three three separate peaks that um that kind of border along that that that line of the the prairies into the Rockies and Um, so that the area was amazing. It was really neat to be able to race there. Um, I was definitely, I i went into the race a little sick and hadn't slept a ton and was definitely not a hundred percent. So, um, that led to learning some things along the way that I i wouldn't have known otherwise, which was just still really cool. Um, but, uh, yeah, I ended up, I think I.
00:34:38
Speaker
I think I ran a pretty decent race. It was my first race since I was 12. So it definitely was ah a whole new experience getting to do that. And especially in such an incredible race. It wasn't like, you know, going and running your local 10K, like it was a pretty, pretty special environment and a lot of really impressive athletes traveled from all over to come do it. So I really enjoyed.
00:34:55
Speaker
I really enjoyed the competitive field. i I really liked that. I think there's a lot of, it's easy to sign up for your local trail race and go do pretty well, but to to be in a place where you've got all these really you know impressive athletes that are either pro or semi pro that come travel from all over the world to do that was really cool to to witness that level of performance right in front of your eyes was really cool. um And the the place, like I mentioned, was awesome and the organizers were really great.
00:35:21
Speaker
um The, yeah, I mean, like, I won't give you like a super detailed breakdown. I think, you know, you learn pretty quick, like, don't go out too hard. And I think I probably want to maybe slightly too hard. um I think I was, I was all right. I didn't blow up, but it was definitely a little, a little too fast. um But it's funny because it's this big funnel, as I'm sure many trailers are.
00:35:44
Speaker
It's so hard not to go out fast. yeah And then it's like this single track conga line for, you know, God knows how long up, you know, with like 1000 meters. So it's like, you do kind of want to solidify your place a little bit, because you can't pass very easily on this long uphill conga. But um Anyway, I did that and then it's, yeah, it's three separate mountains. So it's a lot of, each each climb is basically a thousand meters. So it's like a big climb and then a big drop and then a big climb and then a big drop and then another. So you kind of have to pace yourself for that. I definitely
00:36:16
Speaker
I was coughing a lot. I was definitely not in tip-top physical condition. But you know all in all, it was really great. I definitely had i found the the biggest learning curve for me was um just dealing with hydration. I think the longest training run I had done was maybe four and a half hours.
00:36:33
Speaker
But the Minotaur for me ended up being like seven and a half, eight-ish. I can't remember exact time, I think. Watch, it was like right around that eight hour mark. And hydration became an issue and the aid stations are pretty sparse just because it's hard to promote it.
00:36:54
Speaker
So, you know, i I drank a lot of water before and then I started and had a liter with me, but it's two hours from the start to the first aid station. So it's, you know, you kind of just drink drink that liter pretty quick. And then I would drink at every aid station, I'd drink at least a liter of electrolytes, and then I'd take another liter of water.
00:37:13
Speaker
But even then, and I talked to a lot of people afterwards and everyone was running out of water. It was just kind of this, it was this hot, dry Rockies day. And, you know, you've got hours and hours between aid stations and you're kind of just going through it all. So and that was definitely, I would, I don't know what I would do. I'd probably just find a way to carry more water. um That would be a, probably a pretty big consideration.
00:37:33
Speaker
um Fueling went well. i found My body didn't like throw anything up. Nothing felt too weird. I think I got enough enough nutrition in. And then definitely had some cramping near the end that that slowed me down a fair bit. and I think it might have been... I don't know if it was... I don't think I was overly dehydrated and I don't think I was under fueled. I think it was maybe just ah partly just like my body was a little sick and I was pushing pretty hard. through definitely not not my greatest couple days and so um that was fine and you know really at the end of the day it was just great to go finish and I really really loved it like the definitely definitely the last hour or two was definitely more than suffering thing but um but everything else was really really awesome I really loved it
00:38:17
Speaker
That's great. Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, that's pretty far in between aid stations. I would say yeah, probably the leader in half, at least. um Yeah, which is, I mean, ah gosh, it's like, that is forever the battle of Oh, I really don't want to carry that extra half leader. And then you're like 30 minutes from the aid station going, I am almost I am like completely out. I have like a sip left. And man, I wish I'd brought that bottle. um Yeah, totally. It was a tough race like 500 started and 400 finished. um So 100 dropped, which was I mean, I don't know much but that seemed like it seemed like a lot of people to drop. Yeah, that's a fair amount for yeah.
00:39:03
Speaker
was it Was it hotter than it usually is or expected? It was wild. It had snowed. It was crazy. It snowed like a foot and a half the week before. Oh yeah, remember you sent me. Yeah, it was really quite something. And then everyone was getting ready for a big snow race. And then it all melted like two days before. um So it was like fully dry. We didn't, I don't think I even touched snow, which blew my mind. I did not expect that. And this is just the Rockies are a crazy place. But um yeah, I think I ended up like 186th out of 500 starters. I was like, yeah, you know, felt felt all right. now i Definitely lots of room for improvement, but didn't feel embarrassing at all. So that was ah fun. You know, it was just a really, I kind of went into it with the,
00:39:44
Speaker
you know, low bar of I'd like to finish and like not like stumble my way across the finish line and feel all right. And, and feel like I run a decent race and you know, there were definitely things I could have done differently. Um, and we'll learn from, but not, no glaring like, Oh my goodness, that was terrible. Um, everything was kind of ah lot good or okay. Could have been. Yeah.
00:40:06
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think, I mean, you came into it with ah definitely some challenging circumstances and sickness and everything. So yeah, I was psyched to see that you did it and had, you know, seemed like you had a great time. um Do you think you'd do it again?
00:40:21
Speaker
100%. Yeah, not a question. Nice. In fact, it's like ive and I was talking to a couple other people and they were like, this is kind of the only race we run. like We don't really do any other races. We kind of just like you know enjoy the mountains and you know train all year long by just hanging out in the mountains. And then we come and run the Minotaur. And it's really awesome. And then we wait until the next year. And I get it, because I think there's um I will be doing, I think, a couple other races this year. But I think, for me, there's there's nothing that really substitutes being up high. I do really enjoy the you know running through the forest and really enjoying that. But um i you know the thought of doing a 50K on trails at low elevation, even with even with a bit of hurt, but if it doesn't involve that that kind of technical aspect, it it just it doesn't speak to me as much. I totally still get it, but I think
00:41:14
Speaker
the Minotaur is really unique in that sense, where it's it's and short enough that you can really push and and hammer it, I think, pretty hard. And I saw that with the you know the really fast athletes that are just like going. um but But it's also long enough and technical enough that like you've really got heavier wits about you. And it's not it's certainly not to be underestimated. And there's definitely, like i would I would say, um it would not be a stretch to say there were some class three on route. like it's pretty and And with some exposure, like you can't screw up. So um that was really cool. I really enjoyed that. I found my like my strengths are definitely moving through technical training and being able to move downhill well. So um that was all great. And then I am learning that you know that there's a lot of, and it makes sense, like there's a lot of room for improvement on being able to move uphill quickly and sustain that for 3,000 meters of up. um So that that would definitely be my biggest point of improvement hopefully for next year is
00:42:07
Speaker
um I didn't never felt out of my element, but definitely felt like the the ups were just long. um And so, at you know, to be expected, considering I haven't been training for that long, but definitely realized, you know, what I learned from other people is that I didn't, yeah, I think I was always able to kind of maintain and push hard on on the the ridges and the downs, but that those ups just kind of kill. Well, I can tell you, ah she's nine years into racing, I'm still working on my uphills. There's, yeah, there's always, and I think that's the fun part. It's always, it's always pieces where you're like, I can get a little faster here, I can work on my uphill, I can work on my power, I can work on my downhill. So yeah, it's fun to always have those pieces and then the training lends itself to like, yeah, I get to do this awesome mountain to get to work on my uphill. What's the biggest, biggest vert you've done race?
00:43:03
Speaker
Oh, um. I know you've done some long races. So I know that, you know, over the long distance, you can definitely rack up. so Yeah. Yeah. I actually, so I think the biggest for I've done.
Community and Holistic Benefits of Trail Running
00:43:15
Speaker
Well, yeah, we'll see. So in a hundred mile or the biggest for I've done was your a, which is, um, let me pull up my meters to feet, uh, almost 13,000 meters.
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's all lot of about forty two thousand feet a feet. Yeah, it's a lot. The last the last climb is i about eight and a half K and 26, 2700 meters.
00:43:55
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, it's just straight up and straight back down. crazy Wow. Yeah, that's a mile. A mile 90. It's like, wow. i Yeah, it was actually the downhill that started just absolutely killing your quads are just destroyed. And you're like, not I don't want to go down anymore. Start to finish. That's a 30. How many hours?
00:44:17
Speaker
Uh, that took me 30, is either 35 or 37. I think it was 35. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is a long time. I think the cutoff is 55 hours. It's long. Yeah. It's when you start on a hundred dollar, when you are.
00:44:38
Speaker
like the top five, top 10 is going almost into a second night. It's a long it's long race. Yes, that's crazy. yeah It's interesting because Hard Rock i mean is right in that area too, and Hard Rock is, um I think the average elevation is higher, so it stays higher, but it has almost 10,000 feet less of class yeah that's really Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to, oh, you should do the, you're a 50 or the hundred other one. I think I'll be right up your alley. Yeah. yeah and you like that less Yeah. Well, Lucas, thank you for sharing your experiences on this. Anything else you'd like to add on or, or things that you learned? I, you know, I think.
00:45:33
Speaker
It was, it was a lot of fun. I just think there's, you know, if if there's, does anyone listening that's wondering, oh, you know, should I, should I do this? Should I, should I get into this? It's, um, I think you kind of just get into it however you want to. Like I, I don't, I don't anticipate becoming a, you know, a really competitive ultra runner in making this my whole thing but I do love how it fits into so much of what I love and it it really lends itself to like we talked about earlier it lends itself to safety in the mountains it it certainly lends itself to bigger adventures in a shorter time frame which is always always a win um but I also think if you know I come from a pretty competitive sports background and I would describe myself as relatively competitive and it's a
00:46:14
Speaker
so really It feels like a really healthy way to to you know kind of express that. it's It's competitive, but it's also so, I mean, you know this, it's it it is super hyper competitive, but it's also like so wonderful and the people are so great and you know the after parties and that the the time you spend with people even out on the courses.
00:46:33
Speaker
I haven't run a marathon on flat ground, but from everyone I talk to, it's kind of just like everyone's in like a big, long mass and you're kind of just like running along and like and then everyone leaves and you're done, it's whatever. Whereas it felt like such a different, it felt like so much more of a communal activity rather than ah just a big competition, which I really loved. And so I think, yeah, if you're looking for a,
00:46:53
Speaker
for for a way to kind of get out of your comfort zone and push without necessarily taking on ah a ton more of objective risk or or pushing what you would think would be like your safety limits. I think it's a really wonderful way to be in beautiful places and still be out in the mountains, but not necessarily feel like you have to be, like you said, pushing a great higher or skiing a little steeper or climbing a little more exposed. you know There's room for that if that's your thing, but it's another really cool outlet for mountain sports, mountain activities that doesn't necessarily necessitate that.
00:47:24
Speaker
I love that. Yeah, I can tell you from experience, my first marathon, I was like, why is everyone so grumpy? No one's like sharing snacks with me or is, you know, cheering me. I was like, everyone's in their own little world.
00:47:39
Speaker
I get really pig headed about road running, but I just like, I'm always just like, I, I don't know why, like life's short. There's lots of trails. I mean, I understand for people that like not everyone, not everyone gets to live in a place where they have access to the mountain. So i I totally understand that. And it's, it's a huge privilege to be in an area where I i can, but if you have the, the, you know, the blessing of being able to, you know, look into your backyard and see mountains, I just don't understand for the life of me why you want to go run on roads. it's like just go out there be out there it doesn't have to be a big summit or anything but just being out in nature and getting away from kind of the hustle and bustle is such a it's it's so much more than just a physical thing it's mental and emotional and spiritual and physical it's all it's everything kind of wrapped up it feels very holistic and i think that's how i would it's probably the best word i would use to describe trail running mountain running is like it's it is very holistic like it's relational you get to know people really well it's very much physical but
00:48:34
Speaker
Um, it certainly feels spiritual when you're, when you're out there in the mountains and especially when you're alone or you're fighting hard at the end of a race. Like it's, it's just a different, it's a different kind of activity. And I really, really love it. Awesome.
Conclusion and Social Media Follow-up
00:48:46
Speaker
Well, I'm glad brought another to the dark side. ha i can say ah Well, where can people find you if they want to follow along with your adventures?
00:49:00
Speaker
Yeah, Instagram's easy, I find. I post a lot of stuff on my Instagram. My name is Lucas Mann. Instagram is ExploroMan, made it in grade six, never changed it. Some of them asked me the other day, they were like, why is it ExploroMan? And I was like, I actually think in my little grade six head, I remember vividly being like, I don't want to be like everyone else and just make it my name. And I really like to explore. So I'm going to be explorer, oh, man. And I've like multiple times thought of changing it and been like, no, I'm going to leave it because it's funny and I just don't care. um So anyway, but ah I feel like it's become a little bit of its own thing. Anyway, that's why my Instagram and I'm on on Strapin, whatever. But that is that is very adorable. And also your six. I mean, I feel like a lot of six coders are like,
00:49:51
Speaker
I don't know, a lot more crude and not as forward thinking. And that worked out really well for ah your last name kind of tying into it. So, a 26th grader. Yeah. The fact that I feel okay still having that is definitely, I actually, like I think my email at the time was coolsnowboarderdudeatgmail.com. It engaged as well. So I've updated that a little bit, but thankfully the Instagram has stuck around and it doesn't doesn't feel too embarrassing yet.
00:50:22
Speaker
Nice. Awesome. Well, Lucas, thank you so much for joining me today and thank you all for listening to the uphill athlete podcast. If you can rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that helps us help more endurance athletes out there. It's not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.