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Puzzles!
99 Plays16 days ago
Jess comes up with a full proof and completely correct system to explain all puzzles. Ben talks about a disappointing episode of Family Guy.
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
Give us a review, they help people find this show! Unless you hated it, in which case, I recommend a podcast called "WTF with Marc Maron"
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Transcript
Introduction and Family Guy Musings
00:00:31
Speaker
you i i I don't know where I was going with that. Like my brain was like starting to swerve into it's like, you know, do like a hey Jude parody. And then it was like, but was it like a parody? You know, like, would that just be Jess, I'm Ben. This is Jess. Hey, it's me, Jess. All right, but I just have to, something pressing, an intrusive thought just entered my mind ah that I'm going to have to talk about before we even introduce the show or anything like that. But this intrusive thought just entered my mind. um Please proceed. So you remember, we were all so upset that Family Guy was canceled in 1990, whatever, 1990. Yeah, I was out in the streets. Early 2000s.
00:01:22
Speaker
ah We were all so upset. Did you watch it? Were you excited about it? Like did you watch the first like what three seasons two or three seasons of a Family Guy before it? came back forever. I believe I watched the first episode and said, this is not for me. I have not watched it since. All right, well, okay, so all right, I'll just have to tell this tale ah to the adoring listeners, which is that I so that came out, I remember watching in the basement with it used to be just Steve affixed a once yearly ah cameo appearance on
00:02:00
Speaker
Uh, my, my Twitch stream, uh, we watched the, we wore out the family guy DVDs. We would watch him and rewatch him. It was so sad. It was so sad. They took family guy away from us, those criminals.
00:02:13
Speaker
And ah then ah they announced
Analyzing Family Guy's Humor and Its Cultural Impact
00:02:17
Speaker
it was coming back. I was just like, this is the most exciting thing that's ever happened in my life. They're bringing back a show. I think I was a freshman or a sophomore in college. And ah they ah were having a live reading of an episode of Family Guy at Town Hall Theater in New York City.
00:02:35
Speaker
right before the premiere, and they're gonna read one of the their old classic episodes live the full cast, and then play the the premiere. ah And so they they read the episode out loud, which was kind of fun to watch. It was kind of fun. Table rings are always fun. And then I played that they played the episode and you want to know what I just sat there and I was like,
00:03:01
Speaker
This isn't that funny. Oh, no. Oh, no. And but the reason why ah that became an intrusive thought that I must swerve the beginning of this podcast from is that ah the first episode or one of the first episodes of like when they brought it back has like an extended recreation of a scene from airplane, a thing that's a comedy.
00:03:26
Speaker
Yes. And they they got the the music from airplane, the theme from airplane, they played it and they just do a scene from airplane. And it's like, that's not a joke. Also, it's not like even a funny reference if you're just doing something from a comedy. I don't know. I mean, if I go out there and and I just still like a tight 10 from Daniel Tosh, and I'm like just cracking up all my friends with his with his comedy,
00:03:53
Speaker
Am I not? ah Am I not telling jokes? Am I not parodying the Well, well that I think this is but but we're supposed to laugh the laugh of recognition. so It's like that's from airplane you that's that's just theft.
00:04:10
Speaker
Well, no, I mean, this is the the the the joy. Like, unless you're like now, i unless you say to your friends, which this would be interesting to do. Like you go up to your friends and say like, Hey, I'm just, I'm going to drop 10 minutes of Daniel Tosh on you. And they're like, Oh, hell yeah. I love your, your witty takes on Daniel Tosh.
00:04:29
Speaker
you They can't get enough. I mean, you say this jokingly, but when I come out and I'm just like, hey, would you listen to me say something that a comedian said earlier, like a few years ago on his comedy special? If I just said that at you for a few minutes and people are like, yes, please. That sounds like a free ticket to a comedy show. Yeah. Perfect.
Gaming and Streaming Adventures
00:04:50
Speaker
Uh, uh, uh, just point Tosh. All right. Anyway, folks, this is quest quest.
00:04:57
Speaker
Clearly, it's your game podcast where we talk about Family Guy and Daniel Posh. I'm timely hot references to yeah never been hotter. Either one of them. Yeah, they're very everyone. Well, at least Family Guy is still in the air. ah But um anyway.
00:05:16
Speaker
ah We are a long time adventure game, point and click adventure game guys. We also both stream them. You can watch me on Twitch, PS underscore Garrick, G-A-R-A-K. And Jess. And you can watch me on Twitch at Decaf Jedi. Yeah, that one's easier. You know, the the thing is, is that Garrick can go a couple different ways. You might you might think it's G-A-R-E-K.
00:05:45
Speaker
I didn't think about that. But unless they're, you know, a Star Trek fan out there anyway, Jess, uh, what have you been playing lately? What, what, what have you played anything interesting lately? Have you just been staring at a wall? I'm just staring at a wall, man. It's getting rough. Um, I mean, I'll tell you what I am. I'm playing with fire. I'm playing with fire right now. Okay.
00:06:11
Speaker
Well, that's, you know, this already, that that's terrible to play with. but That's the only game I have. That's horrible to play with. Yes. Don't play with fire. he burned Yeah. Also Jess, we're going to get in big trouble because kids talk about old references. ah Kids are going to listen to this podcast.
00:06:36
Speaker
the massive audience of children that love point and click adventure games. And they're they're going to run home and ah start playing with fire because they want to be like their hero Jess.
00:06:49
Speaker
Now, Ben, can you check with our legal team to see if it's cool if I say kids go eat tide pods? Like, is that a problem? I'll check with them. Okay, so I'll just say it now. Kids go eat tide pods if you need to edit that out later. But what I've been playing, I installed World of Warcraft, and I'm gonna play the World of Warcraft. oh It's the worst mistake a person can make. oh worse No, it's not good. it's not I mean, I have a documented problem with this game going back to a severe addiction in the early 2000s, mid-2000s, I guess. And I got the itch the other day. It's like, wouldn't it be fun to stream this 20 years later? And ah I've played up to like level three just to see what it feels like. And I don't know.
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah, so you used to play it. You haven't played it for a very long time. yeah eighteen years never I've never ah played World of Warcraft. Not once. the The only Warcraft anything that I've played is ah three. That's it. That's all I've played. um I didn't even play two or one.
00:07:57
Speaker
um And all I associate World of Warcraft with, uh, returning to my college years is that that was like, there was like, kind of like a group of people where you'd walk down dorm halls and you would just see like someone that you never saw. Just like you only saw like the back of their head and they're hunched over, like leaned over, uh, posture over their keyboard and mouse.
00:08:27
Speaker
That's going to be me while teaching my own classes in a couple of weeks. Like, students are going to be asking me questions. I was going to be holding up a finger while I'm running the mouse at the other one. It's like, I'll get to you in a minute. I'm going to rage right now. um Yeah, this this is going to go all downhill quickly. This may be the last episode we record. Yeah. Yeah. um Well, this could become a wow podcast, but you would have to find someone else. Or you could just do it a solo pod. Yeah. Or I can just tell you about wow for an hour every week. It's like, you won't believe what I did in wow.
00:08:56
Speaker
But what's funny about WoW is that also it's like I have a lot of knowledge of WoW from like kind of its peak era of popularity where like in the same way that I know a lot about Marvel even though I don't read comic books and I've only seen like a couple of the movies. But I know everything because I exist.
00:09:19
Speaker
And I have friends. um and for um not Not to brag. Look who exists. It's Mr. Ontological debate over here.
00:09:31
Speaker
i I think therefore I'm aware of MCU.
00:09:39
Speaker
Why have you been playing them? I have been playing so I have started I ah like last week or so I started to feel very you talk about talk about going back to games ah that you've you've played a lot. I started to feel the itch of ah of a ah game that i I very much enjoy and that I like to go back to.
00:10:05
Speaker
Uh, and I hadn't played the, uh, the classic in a long time. So I've been playing, uh, roller coaster tycoon.
00:10:19
Speaker
I've been doing open RCT two, which is, so you get roller coaster tycoon two, and then you could also have an installed one if you want to port over your stuff from roller coaster tycoon one course I do and I did.
00:10:34
Speaker
um And, uh, it is like kind of a, like somebody made like an open source port, which like you can, like it runs at a way high resolution and you could put in plugins and, uh, like there's all sorts of, like you can do all sorts of additional stuff in it. Um, and I'm not really messing around too much with that though. There is a thing that I, a plugin I installed that I'm
00:11:06
Speaker
I've been toodling with, and I don't know if I'm going to keep it because it feels like cheating because it is cheating. Um, which is to say there's a plugin on open RCT two, which there's a website. and I wasn't aware of this until I started to play this, which, uh, makes like that is a calculator for you, you punch in what type of ride it is.
00:11:34
Speaker
any punch in some other information, how how old it is, etc. And it will tell you the optimal price, and price the tickets for that ride. And there's a plugin that just has that math in it. And it Uh, you know, much like, uh, you know, our, our future AI grocery shelves, uh, it automatically every day resets the prices for every single ride based off of like.
00:12:07
Speaker
demand age, uh, like all of the different, like, you know, statistics of a roller coaster, all of that. So you just turn that on. No one ever complains about price. It gets them all the way up to the maximum amount that they will pay for any ride without whining about it. Uh, and I've been playing with it and it is absolutely a cheat code because I think part of like,
00:12:33
Speaker
The puzzle of and I didn't even introduce what the the the plot of this whole podcast is. um But the like, you know, I think part of the management of roller coaster tycoon is trying to.
00:12:50
Speaker
you know massage and figure out how much yeah people are willing to spend and so this this it is it is essentially game genieing out part of part of the game I assume that there's some people that are like absolutely this makes it so I can play it with like it's not a ah total sandbox but uh trending that direction it sounds like yeah it turns down the difficulty like two ticks and let's be real here roller coaster tycoon is not a difficult game uh it's the dark souls of thing park management yeah like
00:13:27
Speaker
I and and and I dusted this off because I played a lot of Percotect, which is like the indie version of that type of rollercoaster cocoon game. and It's very, very good. ah But, you know, I just needed a hit of the original. I just needed to hear those original sound effects and I needed to see those original graphics, you know, just sometimes just need to see them like that. yeah I see them. You got to see them anyway. So today.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah. Before we move on, can I just say because I don't know when we'll get to talk about roller coaster tycoon again, right? How crazy is it that there's a game coming out next year? That is a Mars attacks themed theme park Sam. mar we up yeah One of us might be playing that, ah but that's the loudest thing I've ever heard of it. We don't have to go down this rabbit hole, but we're. Yeah, it's a it's very ah one tiny little ah side quest and a podcast where I talked about family guy for 20 minutes before we even introduced each other. ah But um
00:14:38
Speaker
ah You know, it's, interesting I think we're at a very interesting time for tycoon games because like, if you remember like that massive success of a roller coaster tycoon, like there was that window of time where like there was just a billion tycoon games and some of them were okay. Uh, but none of them were as good as roller coaster tycoon. And I want to be clear here. I am.
00:15:06
Speaker
sub tweeting zoo tycoon. Not as good as you think it is. Wow. Shots fired. All right.
Adventure Game Puzzles: Types and Discussions
00:15:13
Speaker
Uh, Jess, would you like to take us into today's to pick?
00:15:17
Speaker
Well, to today's topic is adventure game puzzles. We want to talk a bit about what puzzles have stuck with us through the years, puzzles we thought were particularly good. I don't know, Ben, I don't think we're diving into the puzzles we hate. That seems like an entirely separate episode. That's like kind of a different, I feel it's a different thing. I guess we want to talk a bit about the ones we love, games that we thought were particularly strong in terms of puzzle design. We wanted to get a sense of ah maybe hopefully we come around to what makes a good adventure game puzzle, because honestly, I feel like I know it when I see it, but I'm i'm not sure that I can pin down for myself exactly what makes a good puzzle. Well, and it's it's really fun. Like, ah you know, it ah you and I are ah two people that
00:16:09
Speaker
ah like a very is specific type of adventure game, listen to our first episode, we go and do it. um And i those have a very specific style of puzzle. And so like,
00:16:25
Speaker
You know, there, there are games like, you know, I, I know I'm not, and I'm pretty sure you aren't like, I'm not a missed head. Uh, we're like, uh, you know, uh, of that style. And so.
00:16:40
Speaker
you know, I don't know if I could i conclusively say like, this is a good puzzle. This is a bad like, what makes a good puzzle in its totality? Because i i you know, there, there are a lot of people that enjoy a dense, chewy puzzle.
00:16:59
Speaker
And I like a light floofy puzzle. I like a cotton candy puzzle that melts in my mouth. And like, whereas like, I know they're, they're like, there are a lot of people that love like,
00:17:16
Speaker
you know, the the remake of Riven just came out ah earlier this year. And you could spend, you know, a very, very long time just kind of walking around with a like, here, here's something. So If you're a person that speaking of note pads if you're playing a game and you get thrilled by the concept of like you have a notebook out and you're chatting stuff down and then you're like you know putting together like a little grade and figuring all that out.
00:17:47
Speaker
That is not how I ever do a puzzle. I'm not ever going to do that. You will never make me do that. I will never have a pen or a pencil and a piece of paper. It's not happening. I'm really glad you bring this up because I have to admit I'm not either. Like that's not me. That's not how I play games. I will be completely honest. I really wish it was me. Like I see people who play like that.
00:18:12
Speaker
I dream of that. I do wish I could be that dedicated and focused and systematic. Like shout out to a streamer who I love, RobotSpacer, who plays a lot of adventure games, who sometimes even has like a second camera focused on the notes that are being taken on, you know, maps that are being drawn and everything, like very meticulous and just very organized in the approach. at i yeah like I wish that could be me. I wish I could be this good at thinking about stuff. Yeah, I'm sorry. I have a degree in the humanities. It's just not how I've ever done anything.
00:18:52
Speaker
oh I just wish I could though. that seems I want to be that guy. I want to be like, oh, look at Jess. He has all these meticulous notes that he keeps. and yeah What a dream. What a dream. Yeah. like so to be and i every time like To go back to the re-release of Riven, every time something like that happens, I have the dream of like maybe maybe I'll buy this remaster Riven.
00:19:20
Speaker
And it will open up something inside me. it I will become the guy that takes notes, solves puzzles with a notebook. And then I'm like, I i i know myself.
00:19:40
Speaker
yeah been alive you know I've been alive for a while. I'm yes aware of what I will do and that is I will make the attempt for maybe 15 minutes and then I will stop.
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, this is like when I buy a new pair of hiking boots, and I'm like, I think I'll be a person who goes outside now. And I know that's not happening. If I were going to go outside, I would have gone outside by now. ah There's no chance that an ass pair of boots is getting me on the hiking trail. And same thing. Like, you're you're you're you're like, well, surely I spent all this money. So that's like going to guilt me into doing it. and then It's not how it works.
00:20:23
Speaker
No, I'm shameless. It turns out, yeah, that doesn't bother me. And I start to resent myself for even the suggestion. yeah That would be that that obsessed with money. How how dare I?
00:20:35
Speaker
Well, all right. So with all those provisos out of the way, Jess, you, you said when we were discussing earlier that you have like, you've, you've broken it up into types of puzzles. Uh, I'm intrigued, yeah intrigued by this. And then you gave me a hard time. You didn't share any of the notes. So yeah. Yeah. You said I was like preparing, uh, for this, like it was a, uh, a classroom lecture and I realized exactly right time. That's just me saying facts.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's it's the only way I can think. Well, you like, yeah, you teach classes, like, yeah you yeah, that makes sense. Like, that wants to be putting you down. Well, let me drop some knowledge on you, Ben. Take notes. Or I guess you said you don't do that. So never mind. Forget that. So I was thinking like, what are yeah what What are the kinds of puzzles that are out there? What is a topology of adventure game puzzles if we had to break this down? And I kind of came up with, the let's see how many categories I have here. One, two, three, four, five. I have five categories I came up with and help me figure out what I'm missing here as we break this down.
00:21:40
Speaker
Okay. And you can always email us at quest, quest podcast at gmail dot.com. If there are other categories that you think of. Okay. Yeah, but don't at them. I think that part, you can only at our email and never criticism of me. That's right. I'll take criticism because I'm confident and that's not going to break me down, but that's beside the point. ahha ah I would wither. I would wither and. OK, my first category ah puzzles that involve object interaction. I think this is like the classic inventory puzzle inventory. Yeah, you click an inventory item on something in the world or on another inventory item that solves it. For me, that's like the bread and butter of an adventure game. So ah ah what do I mean, my little list here of good
00:22:32
Speaker
ah puzzles. I have a couple that would fit in there. What what what would you say is a ah good example of like well what's one of your favorite inventory puzzles, you match the thing on another thing.
00:22:47
Speaker
a really good inventory puzzle. and What's bad is I immediately thought of like the worst one. ah Like I thought of throw bridal on snake from King's quest to that just like nonsensical logic to that without hints. So you figured it out. Yes. I mean, that's true. and what What is a good one? solve that How did young Jess?
00:23:08
Speaker
figure out to throw a bridal on a snake. Are you ready for a pro tip? Are you ready for the new everything to my exit? No, no, even better. I met a game that here's how I did this, Ben. Okay. My copy of King's Quest two. Oh, I think you've said this was a gatefold cover. It opens up with a bunch of screenshots of the game. Oh, that's so cool. This three hats.
00:23:32
Speaker
The screenshot of that scene showed a Pegasus standing there and instead of a snake. So I was like, I would do this all the time. Yeah, I looked at and I was like, OK, so there must be a way to make a Pegasus appear on the screen. After all, video game designers hadn't learned how to lie to us with screenshots yet at the time. So I was like, that's what happened.
00:23:53
Speaker
So it only made sense at that point to try throwing the bridle on. So I just met a game. If I had pirated that, I would have never seen that screenshot and I would have never finished that puzzle. But again, let's use an inventory item on him on another but um something in the world. That's an object interaction puzzle. That's the bread and butter of the genre, I would say.
00:24:10
Speaker
I like, uh, there, there are, do you want to run through all the different types or do you want to fill in, uh, uh, our favorites here? Either way, hit me with one. If you got one, one one of mine, uh, and is, uh, I, I like, uh, there, there are a couple good object interaction puzzles. I really like one of them is I love.
00:24:33
Speaker
One of my favorite puzzles that I think about all the time ah is ah from the ah final Zork game, not counting like that the MMORPG they attempted. ah But um from Zork Grand Inquisitor,
00:24:53
Speaker
Uh, there's a, uh, puzzle where you, so, uh, over the course of the game, there are little segments where you, uh, possess like a different character. and okay Um, like, so you, uh, like fingers, like two or three different characters that you can become for like these short little vignettes. And one of them is, is that you're, you become like this stupid caveman.
00:25:23
Speaker
And, uh, you, you go and you have to get like some sort of important artifacts because it's a Zork game. So you have to get like some sort of important artifact. And, uh, you're this caveman and this important artifact is, is hidden like under like a glass, uh, like this, uh, like it's hidden under glass and you can't tug it out. And sitting in front of it is a seventh guest style chess board.
00:25:54
Speaker
ah And like, if you click on the chessboard, the caveman just moves one of the chess pieces back and forth and then just comments to himself how like, how how smart he is and how he's solving this and he's doing a great job.
00:26:12
Speaker
And so he's doing that and he's just kind of moving it back and forth. And it, uh, and then eventually you have in your inventory, the caveman's club and you can just smash the chess board. And then the little glass case opens up and you get the inventory item. And it was, that's very oh, that's very funny. It's you i wass a little meta humor.
00:26:34
Speaker
Yeah, and along those similar lines, like a couple that I'd mark down as all time favorites, like the scene from Secret of Monkey Island, where you've been thrown off the dock, and you're weighted down by the idol of many hands, right? And the solution is you simply pick up like it up the idol and walk away. Like, I think that's brilliant. I think it's a fun twist on this sort of environmental stuff. Did that take you a while the first time?
00:26:59
Speaker
It did. like I definitely tried to pick up every sharp object that's there. i mean The joke completely played like I imagine Ron Gilbert and the rest of the team wanted it to for me. like I did all the things that you were supposed to do yeah before I had the aha moment. It was yeah it worked. and Another one that I think maybe Not quite as successful, but I like for similar reasons, uh, the magic marker at the end of, uh, leisure suit, Larry three, when you're trapped in the cage with passionate Patty and you, the only item in your inventory is a magic marker. And when you use it, you just draw a magical door that transports you to the world of the Sierra backlot, which I kind of like the, just the.
00:27:42
Speaker
the complete ridiculousness of real like ah it's literally a magical marker. And you know, is there any indication? Is there any hints? Does that include you to this at all? Nope. Well, the only thing is it's literally the only item you're gonna have in your inventory. I see. So it's sort of a you figure it must duck a buck your way out.
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly you du it's you're exactly you duck a mic your way out. So object interaction. Yeah, that's classic okay stuff. Okay. Okay. Category to to to to. All right. Environmental puzzle.
Environmental Puzzles in Games
00:28:14
Speaker
Okay, here we're talking about navigating a maze, maybe climbing a tree, walking up some stairs, maybe aligning some mirrors to direct light towards some sort of target stuff like that. Right.
00:28:30
Speaker
Um, you know, I mean, I have a couple, I have a couple, uh, uh, but I wouldn't call these, uh, environmental, so I'll hold onto those. Trying to think, like, obviously Amaze is a, yeah, that, that fits in there and those stink.
00:28:45
Speaker
um Yeah, that's not a good puzzle. Yeah, most I don't know that I love a lot of these puzzles like the yeah, I mean, I just finished playing manhunter, you know, the manhunter New York and it's got plenty of mazes and stuff. It's like, yeah, I guess I'm puzzling while I'm doing those. But I wouldn't say I'm having fun doing it. To me, it is like,
00:29:06
Speaker
my least well, I say that there may be a category I like even less, but it's one of my least favorite kinds of puzzles to encounter in most cases is the Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's like a good they like Because like mazes are one of the, you know, the obvious and transparent bids to like just kind of eat up time because yeah all you could do is just trial and error. And they also ah expect you to
00:29:39
Speaker
either ah just kind of wander around or take notes, which ah big no no. So it's like, you know, in Zach McCracken, a game that has many mazes.
00:29:53
Speaker
ah who
00:29:56
Speaker
um i The like, You know, ah the those mazes probably aren't that bad. If you just sit and write them down, do the minimal amount of work. Yeah.
00:30:11
Speaker
Would I would you say, ah see, go back to secret but of Monkey Island, would you say that like, ah getting the bananas off the tree on Monkey Island is an environmental puzzle. So you're moving, you're moving like a little thing and then you're pushing. Maybe so. I think it has elements of that. Definitely. I mean, maybe I'm being a little too literal.
00:30:36
Speaker
Yeah, the term environmental because it's like well it's a stone and yeah three what was the game is it like crown and pawn that recent got the broken sword ah type of game like yeah the the indie that came out a year or two ago that crown and pawn um Yeah. I was thinking of that one. Like I remember you walking into several rooms where it's like, I just walked into a puzzle room. There's a bunch of stuff. I'm gonna have to turn a bunch of statues around and stuff like that. If I'm going to proceed, right. That game had some of that going on that that game in in.
00:31:15
Speaker
It was it was a perfectly fine game, but I do not remember very much about it, unfortunately, other than there are two things to remember. that One is the reason why we picked it to play, which was because it ah the beginning of the game takes place in Chicago where I live. So it's like, wow, they could see the beam.
00:31:36
Speaker
I remember the being, it was great. And ah the the second thing I remember is ah that the final scene of the game is obviously a puzzle scene that they didn't have time to implement. It's just something that someone later ah like pointed out on the Discord like found an interview with the people and said like, yeah, it's a puzzle we didn't implement because the final In the in the final like I think they ran out of time or something in the final scene where you have your final confrontation with the bad guy ah Like you're in a room and it looks like kind of chessboard II and it's just kind of like ah like I obviously have like three jumps or whatever and like some of these are wobbly and it's kind of like Indiana Jones and And the Last Crusade, speaking of environmental puzzles, is that has a couple that are obviously inspired ah by ah the movie, like all of the
00:32:37
Speaker
the grail quest, like the the the three grail challenges. Yeah, very much environmental style puzzles. Yeah, that fits into this category really neatly. Yeah. You know, what I thought of yeah that just occurred to me, this is one of my all time favorites. And I think it fits into this category well.
00:32:55
Speaker
um And space quest three when you dispose of arnoid on fleabot by causing him to walk under the yeah yeah on the ceiling of the overhang there that like the go gobble him up. Yeah, the plant thing was him.
00:33:12
Speaker
That's very much an environmental puzzle. You aren't having to use any inventory. It's simply how you steer Roger and how you guide him to where he needs to be. And then it becomes an object puzzle because you use the or add on a stick to grab his invisibility belt safely. So yeah, but I think it fits into that environmental thing. So good. Yeah. Here's my third, ah third type. And this one I may this may be my least favorite of the bunch.
00:33:35
Speaker
I have it listed here as a puzzle puzzle.
Classic Puzzle Mechanics: Tiles, Towers, and Layton
00:33:39
Speaker
This is when you just drop a puzzle that exists in the real world. Right. right seems your yeah yeah yeah This is a sliding tile. This is a towers of Hanoi.
00:33:51
Speaker
yeah man. This is going non men's Morris. it Man. I you know, nine men's Morris I can I can it's sad. I don't hate. on because that's like They just added like a little board game challenge, which was commonplace in Sierra games. Yeah, to that point and it's fun. It's fun history stuff. Yeah, like whereas like towers of Hanaway is in so many fucking games.
00:34:20
Speaker
Yeah, the one I thought of immediately was Chirandia 2, but that's just scratching the surface. I mean, there's so many. It's in the Zork Zero.
00:34:32
Speaker
speaking of zork zork zero has a towers I think they call it like towers of robots or you know, they call it some kind of zorky thing. I zork it out. I mean, you know, ah the the lesser zorks all have, ah like the stock puzzles because ah return to zork has a truly terrible a mosaic puzzle that's just miserable, just dire. That has an awful, awful, awful, ah like a mosaic. Yeah. And you see, this is where I betray the fact that I'm not a missed head either, because in my head, missed is just a game that's all these things. Like everything becomes a logic key. No, that's a very, that's a different, that is totally a different type of puzzle.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, you see, I don't have a different type of puzzle. I don't have that category down, which is where I think I'm missing something missed. No, like missed puzzles. The best I could tell ah are are environmental um and and I like in in the sense that like you you observe clues from like you you you piece together uh this world this surrealistic uh uh place that will become your world uh and and then deduce um uh what you're going to do uh yeah i don't know like i don't know if those are like but mist is not like bolting existing because it's like what you're saying is like um
00:36:13
Speaker
Like, uh, like professor Layton, have you ever played any of the professor Layton games? um Those are actually a lot of fun. Uh, but like professor Layton, if you are unfamiliar or like, if you're listening and you're in here, uh, that is, uh, like this series of games, I think they started on the DS, um, where, uh, you like, there's kind of a, like a little bit of a, like a, a very cute narrative.
00:36:43
Speaker
ah Where ah you and like this little boy that you solve mysteries with like go from place to place It has like a little bit of the veneer of like a visual novel type of adventure game But it's just that you walk into various situations and then someone's like hey I have this for you and it's like they're like then it's there's a wolf and a sheep and and a bale of hay and you have to get them across the river, you know, like that puzzle. Yeah. And yeah know it's like, or riddles or like, how can you go in this category? riddles you do Like match sticks in a certain way or something like that. And one person only tells the truth and the other only tells lies. And, and like,
00:37:32
Speaker
The thing is, is that because Professor Layton, like, and those aren't invited, like it's just that you click on, uh, or tap because you're playing on a DS, like you you tap it and it just drops you into like a puzzle window and it has its own different like UI and you know, you're in a different place. And it's just like, you are now solving a puzzle and.
00:37:57
Speaker
That I am less irritated by because that's just what the game is. yeah Like it's like it doesn't make any secret of it. It's not been like a regular adventure game up to that point. And it's like, here's towers of Hanoi surprise. Right? Yeah. It's like, uh, you know, did you ever get, I don't know if this still exists. Hopefully it still exists. Do you ever get like games magazine?
00:38:24
Speaker
Remember games magazine? I don't know if I did. Games magazine was like be relevant to my interests. Yeah. Yeah. ah Games magazine, which, you know, hopefully I, you know, I don't know if it's still going, but like, uh, it was this, uh, magazine that would have like, it would just be cover to cover. It was all like newsprint pages and they were all just like little puzzles and there would be like,
00:38:51
Speaker
their variation of a crossword puzzle and like, you know, little chess puzzles and little like other like riddles and stuff. And it was just ah like a big ah magazine full of that. And I think they also reviewed board games.
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah, other stuff. It was pretty neat. And hopefully it's still neat. But ah Games Magazine, I ah like it. That's what Professor Layton is, is it's just a whole, but I mean, even not Games Magazine, I'm sure you're familiar with like just a book.
00:39:22
Speaker
That's just I've seen those. Yes, like doctors. you're You've seen books. I've seen books. I mean, looking at your bookcase right now, we ever did. But it's completely empty. So maybe you haven't seen a book. I don't read books anymore. I've done enough of that. I've reached my limit. Ben, can I speak to you privately for a second reader? Go for it. So readers, listeners, um just skip ahead about 45 seconds. Okay, Ben, Ben.
00:39:46
Speaker
we should make a video game where there's one of these puzzle puzzles in it. Only it is like an adventure game set somewhere in the rural parts of America. And the game we put in is that little golf tee pyramid game that they have at Cracker Barrel where you have to jump the golf tees over each other and make somebody solve that for an adventure game.
00:40:12
Speaker
ah see I think those are in the late and I think there's a little peg. Oh, dang, they are. Okay. Well, my favorite thing about those ones at the cracker barrel and listeners, if you're coming back, skip ahead another 45 seconds. Yeah. Keep going. Sorry. Yeah. Uh, my favorite one about those ones at the cracker barrel, this little peg puzzles, the little book, peg puzzles.
00:40:34
Speaker
is uh on the bottom where it has like the the like the pharexis or micro pro style like if you scored this this is when you have yes yes yes i think angles are my favorite like it's like if you are left with like five pegs you are a dunce i like the ones that use the phrase left you're a genius like if you if you have five or more left you're an idiot it's a great word Okay. Are we ready to get back to the podcast? We're back. Okay. All right. Hey listeners, welcome back. If you listening to that shame on you, we ask you to skip ahead, but, but, but yeah, I think like going back to you, uh, like I, I, I think
00:41:17
Speaker
You know, an important thing about puzzles, talking about like with professor Layton, and then you talk about like, hi, Randy to like, if I saw a towers of Hanoi in a professor Layton game, which is possible, it might be, I haven't played all of them. Uh, but if I saw one, I would like kind of roll my eyes and then I'd be like, well, that's what this game is. But it's like, it's fair income. Yeah. And is that what they say? Is that phrase? No. Uh,
00:41:46
Speaker
I just said yes because I was mid a point and I didn't hear what you were saying. Okay. I still don't know what you said. Fair dinkum. It's I think Australian slang to confirm Google says the genuineness of something. So yes, please continue. ah But um anyway, the ah like, but then like at the end of Kyra India, it's just like, well,
00:42:13
Speaker
Like it feels out of place because we've been doing like these inventory ah puzzles and like exploring and ah these magic puzzles and potions and stuff. And then you're right at the climax of the game. You're at right before the final confrontation with the bad guy. And now I have to do this fucking puzzle that I've done a million times, except they, they configured it in a way that makes it even more frustrating and a pain in the ass. I just sucks dude. I just want to fight the hamburger helper guy. Just let me go fight the hamburger helper guy and be done with this. It's, it's not necessary. You know, though Ben, I i the do think, you know, I said, this is one of my least favorite categories and I think I betray an important fact about myself. I think you probably know this already. I don't know if our listeners have picked up on this.
The Art of Dialogue Puzzles
00:43:06
Speaker
Right. Um,
00:43:08
Speaker
I'm not very good at these sorts of puzzles and anything I'm not immediately good at, I hate by default. Like that is my, that's my stance on anything that I'm not immediately good at. So yeah, that's just how I only do things I'm good at. yeah That way people think I'm just good at things because they never see all those things I'm not good at. Uh, so that's probably part of my problem with that category. Um, here's my next category. Okay.
00:43:38
Speaker
dialogue puzzles. Well, these are good. And I've got a, I've got a good one lined up and it's probably the same one that you have lined up. Okay. What do you got going? All right. So first off, yeah, dialogue puzzle. It's a puzzle solved by talking with people and making optimal choices and dialogue can be done. Well, it can be done terribly because there are awful dialogue puzzles. Um, uh, but, uh, a good example of one,
00:44:05
Speaker
I would say the gold standard of one oh is ah Curse of Monkey Island, the musical number. Oh, that's very good. that I think that is canonically the best one. In fact, I mean, I'll just go ahead and say here.
00:44:24
Speaker
this This isn't entirely fair. When I was writing down the games that I think overall have some of the best puzzle design of all time, Curse of Monkey Island is on my very short list. oh Curse of Monkey Island is one of the the fairest like there there's one or two that are a little bit of ah a pain but I think it's so fair and so clear and it reminds me constantly yeah yeah it it it like and I you know and that's a big thing with with any sort of puzzle design is that yeah you have to feel like they're playing fair
00:45:06
Speaker
Absolutely. And yeah, I love, I love the, the pirate song and and that's great. I mean, yeah, you have to get these guys to get to work and eventually just spoiling their rhyme scheme. Brilliant. Perfect dialogue puzzle. And it's also, it's like, I mean, eventually you just run out of options. Yes. You have to say that thing.
00:45:27
Speaker
Um, like it it is not, it is probably one of the easiest puzzles in the world because it ultimately solves itself. Uh, but you know what? It's still great. It's great. Yeah, great. You heard it here. First gang curse of Monkey Island. A good video game. Uh, then so the art is. This was one I had written down. Would you say so?
00:45:56
Speaker
I'm not, uh, to be clear, I'm not saying this yet, but I'm asking it's insult sword fighting a dialogue puzzle. I think I'm going to say. Yes. In that it's completed mechanically through the dialogue tree. I'm wondering though, at some level.
00:46:18
Speaker
Did those like functionally, did the insults and the responses almost work like inventory items where you're just like matching two things? I mean, you know, this is all, this is all nonsense. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, we aren't going to walk away at this with an exact science. You know, it's like, yeah, but I do think, I mean, yeah, I think insult sword fighting is definitely what I would think of as a dialogue puzzle. I mean, it requires.
00:46:44
Speaker
watching paying attention, looking for patterns, and then replicating them through the dialogue you speak. yeah Because I because what I wanted to ah say is that I love I've been playing Tales of Monkey Island. And like, ah you know, I would say a curse of Monkey Island is that ah save for ah Monkey Island, ah like with Chuck's Revenge, and no I don't think they do anything in return. I forget now.
00:47:19
Speaker
um But in i the all of the other Monkey Island games, they have some sort of ah revisit of insult sword fighting and all of them are inferior to the original, which is ah very clever and fun and and deviously put together. And um it's something that takes so ah like a fair amount of time because you're humiliating all the insults. Just to like, Jess, could you explain what the insult, uh, sword fighting puzzle is, uh, uh, to people in case they, if they're listening to his podcast, they don't know it. It's bad point to me, but just, yeah, no, I mean, you are want to be pirate gabash three, but you want to impress the, uh, three important looking pirates. So you need to defeat the sword master of melee Island in order to do that in the world of monkey Island, rather than fighting with the sharp sword, you fight with the sharpness of your wit.
00:48:20
Speaker
And to do that means to out insult your opponent and you are seated a couple of test insults. You know, you fight like a dairy farmer and Ben, if I said that to you, you would say. How appropriate you fight like a cow.
00:48:37
Speaker
nailed it. First try very good. And there was a moment where I was worried that I didn't remember the was really hoping you wouldn't just go dunk all over you. it It just came unbidden. And I also have to say that, like references to that are so tired. They're so tired, but also put them to bed joke. It's a good joke. But it's tired. But Then you just accumulate enough of these sort of, you know, insults and responses until you know enough of them that you can reliably beat the sword master. Hooray. And it's great fun. I mean, I think it is the signature moment of Secret of Monkey Island. And maybe in some ways, I think if you ask people what they remember about that series as a whole, there's a good chance insult sword fighting is right at the forefront, which is why they go back to that. Well, so many times and every time it's lesser. But I will say I thought
00:49:31
Speaker
They did the best variation of it. I'm now playing Tales of Monkey Island. They did one of the smartest and clever variations of that puzzle in Tales of Monkey Island. And I thought that was very, very good and clever. Did you see this, Jess? Were you watching this when I streamed this? I don't think I saw that part. Oh, this was very good. There's a scene where in Tales in the final episode,
00:50:02
Speaker
Uh, where you are, uh, you have to, uh, do a sword fight with someone. And also what's great about this is that it's mercifully short takes like this whole sequence tastes like five minutes. Um, is that there's a guy that desperately wants to sword fight you. And then, and you're not interested in sword fighting, uh, uh, him, but he's going to insist on sword fighting you. He's like, no, no, me, me, me. I want to fight. I want to fight.
00:50:30
Speaker
And then there's someone that you really want to sword fight, but she's like feeling very depressed and dejected. And so like everything she says is like, like upset. And so you have to, so what the puzzle is, is that she says something, putting herself down. And then the other guy who's joined the fight says an insult a fight like a ah witty insult sword fighting thing at you and you have to select from a list something that is a compliment to her and a witty put down to him oh wow it was just like this is so smart and it's also short which by the way
00:51:21
Speaker
Let's, you know, again, I think the length is perfect in secret monkey Allen and every other game, especially in curse. Sorry. A game that I love that we were just seeing praises up way too long. Anyway. Um, but like, I was just like, wow. Wow. They did a clever, and that was like, and that's why I had this down as like a really clever dialogue puzzle because it had, it really made me think of it's like, so I have to say something.
00:51:50
Speaker
That that like I have to double entendre I have to select three double entendres in a row. In order to solve this puzzle and I thought that was just and and I loved it because it really made like you had to parse.
00:52:07
Speaker
like there was no collection of ah responses. So you just are given a list. And so you just have to like pick through the list and try to figure out what a good response to both of those statements that serves both of those. And I was just like, this is, this is so smart. um That's, it I mean, that's a thing I like, I love when ah I solve a puzzle and I feel like smart,
00:52:35
Speaker
And then I also love when I like am I doing a puzzle and I'm like this is Like you know because as as we're saying a lot of these puzzles all like kind of like fit into boxes and so like there's a And, and it's also it's like, you know, this is something you and I talked about Jess ah is it's like, as adventure game players, you just kind of see something when you walk into a scene and you're like, okay, well, that rope is going to have to be cut or or chewed through or something. And puzzles, and like, you just see something and your puzzle sense starts to tingle. And so it's like,
00:53:18
Speaker
you know You're like, well, I'm playing a game. And if you play enough of this genre's games enough, you ah like it's possible for you to just walk into each scene and break it into its component parts.
00:53:34
Speaker
And just be like, okay, there's like these three characters and there's these inventory items. And I'm going to have to look at these four things and they might have two or three clues. And then those that clue will lead me to this thing. And this will lead me to this thing. And I pull out my notebook and I write all of it down studiously.
00:53:49
Speaker
That's right I mean when you're in that flow that's when an adventure game is at its best right when you see even if you don't know the solution yet when you see the progression of. Where this series of puzzles is actually taking you and you can have anticipate the direction you're going in and there's just a matter of what steps do I need to take to get from.
00:54:09
Speaker
what I see needs to eventually be done and where I'm at right now. Like for me, that's when the adventure game is at its best. Like adventure games, I hate the moment where I'm just like, okay, now what, what in the world do I do? It's flowing like that. That's where it's good. Yeah. Before we leave dialogue puzzles, I want to put a, I want to put it i want a request out there to adventure game developers. Are you listening adventure game developers?
00:54:33
Speaker
yeah Okay, thank you. It's good to good to know. We have a small audience of adventure game developers who attend all of our recording sessions. So there they are. That's them in the background. ah Hey, how's it going? Good. Would you like another tea biscuit? Sure. All right. Well, there's some more. There's some more on the end table. Thank you. There we go. So adventure game developers, assembled adventure game developers don't ever make I'm sorry. i mean Adventure game developers. Yes. Okay. We need to take this seriously. Adventure game developers. Okay. Please never make me choose the same dialogue choice two or three times to actually solve your dialogue puzzle. Don't make me just like have Guybrush say please three times. And then that's the solution to the puzzle when the first time didn't work. Yeah, that's I mean, that's one of the the the challenges of designing a good dialogue puzzle is that it's kind of like a
00:55:45
Speaker
Uh, like kind of like a branching path with one specific, like, uh, like with one specific route, uh, through it, like it's, it's kind of. Maisie a little bit because it's like, what you do is like a lot of dialogue puzzles is it's like you, you get like an AB or ABC, but it's like, you want to pick B and so then that progresses you to the next.
00:56:12
Speaker
thing you have to say. And then if you select the wrong option, then it like, at any point, it just takes you all the way back to the start. And you're like, Okay, all right. Well, it's be it's kind of like a Simon puzzle. Like it's like, okay, it's like B and then a and then because it's also like your adventure game sense starts to tingle if like, you like in a dialogue puzzle, like when you start to see a bunch of options open up,
00:56:43
Speaker
You know, like, the yes, it's like, okay, you know I've done something. Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, a dialogue puzzle is basically just a gamified flow chart at some level. And yeah, when you see those new options open up, it's like, okay, now I've done, I like the idea of thinking of like a salmon puzzle to you. I was just playing, uh,
00:57:03
Speaker
Telltale's Sam and Max, the Devil's Playhouse. And I was on episode three, they stole Max's brain, which at the beginning of the game has some ah like almost LA no noir style interrogations of some of the characters where Sam's like a hard-boiled detective and he's really like, you know, turning the screws on these people. And they're all just dialogue puzzles where it's like if you don't know when to threaten them versus when to ask them for more information versus when to accuse them of lying and everything else,
00:57:33
Speaker
It'll take you to the end and Lupiel just like say, try again. So it becomes like a Simon game. It's like, okay, when he says this, that's why I need to be intimidating. Then when the character moves onto this next thing, that's why I need to accuse them of lying. And then just sort of getting the, getting the pattern of that and then writing it through the end. Uh, and eventually getting all of them in the right sequence becomes the puzzle.
00:57:55
Speaker
Yeah. And it's like, I mean, in, in, uh, I haven't played, uh, that episode of devils play house. I'll get there. I, uh, but, uh, by the way, pardon yeah it's a, uh, but part of the, the, the challenge with those and, you know, I, look like, I really enjoyed LA noir, uh, though it's a game I probably will never play again is is it's like it does require like it does like assume a fair amount of the of the player ah like kind of reading
Observation and Search Puzzles
00:58:31
Speaker
in or like especially in a game like Sam and Max where it's like funny and so then like it kind of becomes hard to parse between like well is this a joke or is this a hint you know anyway Yeah, absolutely. No, that's good, though. Yeah, dialogue puzzles. We know them. We love them. Now, this last category, Ben, I don't know either this is not a category at all, or it's such a giant potpourri category. That's like 12 different categories all rolled into one. Sure. In my notes, what I called it is an observation based puzzle.
00:59:03
Speaker
Okay, here's because I had a bunch of these. Okay, here's gonna be everything from pattern recognition. Did you see or hear the right clue to apply it now? Did you read and follow the manual? I think maybe this like a missed puzzle is is in here because that's based on okay.
00:59:22
Speaker
Okay, yeah, you he turn the dial, see what happens, and use that to sort of build your next move or how to proceed from there. Yeah, I was thinking this would include everything from, like, manhunters full of these things. Like, you observe your suspects moving around the city, and then you have to go and repeat their actions, and you have to notice that this guy had a funny tattoo that had a weird pattern that may not be relevant for several hours of gameplay down the road. that's what I got a lot of it.
00:59:51
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of it's just like, you're, are you paying attention? And are you paying attention closely? I don't know. I mean, are like police quest style? Can you just follow the manual puzzles? Something similar to this? Are they there? I would say it's a procedural puzzles. I would say it's a copy puzzle. Yeah. and the Like, like the steps of logic in King's quest six, like that's a copy proposal. Yeah. Um,
01:00:17
Speaker
Which isn't really a puzzle at all. Yeah. Here, here are some of, here's some of my, uh, uh, ones. I, I note, I, I, I put these down as like kind of search and I, like, I wrote in shorthand, like search and deduce. Yeah. I like that.
01:00:34
Speaker
Uh, and, uh, I would say I don't have one in particular, like there were a lot of aha moments when I played this, but, uh, like detective games that really have you become a detective, uh, are very like a kind of search and deduce. So one of the best.
01:00:56
Speaker
Uh, like, and I would say one of the best, uh, one of my favorite games made this century is, uh, Hypnospace Outlaw. And that's a search and deduce game because that's a game, uh, like for, for context, uh, that is a game where you are a, like a content moderator in 1999, uh, geo cities, not a, like, you know, knockoff.
01:01:22
Speaker
you know, fantasy world geocities. And, uh, so a lot of the game is navigating through like in your given assignments to search for things. And a lot of the game is searching through, uh, like, um, the, uh, uh, like reading web pages and noting things. And then like, uh, using the search.
01:01:50
Speaker
Uh, like the search bar on, uh, the, you know, the phony internet that they have hypnospace and like finding other websites, uh, that line up with that. And that's really cool. Uh, I would also say that, uh, like tech, the text Murphy games have that, like a lot of the texts, like the text Murphy games have every type of puzzle in, in them.
01:02:14
Speaker
uh, including dialogue. Um, uh, I was thinking the serpent Rouge, uh, from Gabriel, not three. Uh, I mean, it's death. I don't like that puzzle. I've reacted poorly when I brought it up. Yeah. But I do think it falls into this category. I mean, again, it's that thing where you're a detective actually doing, yeah, you know, observational deductive work, which weirdly most detective adventure games, largely,
01:02:40
Speaker
Don't ask you to do I mean, you know the Nancy Drew games have you make lunches? um I Mean that's part of being a detective also if you don't have lunch You aren't going to have like the the energy needed to solve late afternoon mysteries And I would also say like the Sam Barlow ah games are kind of searching to do like, you know, like her story or immortality. I didn't play the the the the second one. He did ah telling lies. lies i believe telling lies and
01:03:12
Speaker
I haven't either but no i I mean her story I think is a game that does this beautifully just in like a very stripped down straightforward if you want to observe this kind of puzzle I mean her story is about as good of an example as I can think of I like that a lot.
01:03:28
Speaker
Yeah, and and to if you have not played her story, it is ah a FMV. all All three of his recent games have been FMV games. And ah in her story, the only thing that you can do is type into a search engine.
01:03:47
Speaker
Uh, and it's a limited search engine, so it only pulls the top three results. So you can't like, just type in like the, and get, you know, 500 results in every single clip in the game.
01:04:01
Speaker
And you're going to be an AI summary of your search results. What kind of search engines that? Yeah, it's ridiculous. You know, actually, hold up. All right. ah I'm writing an email right now. Sam Barlow at prodigy.net. Sam, are you going to do a remaster ah that has the AI overview of the searches?
01:04:27
Speaker
and like immortality does that too yeah ah to an extent immortality is also an FMV ah ah game that defies all description or yeah it has a similar it has a a similar type of ah thing but it's worth You know, if if ah you're able to pass all of the content warnings ah that are on the the Steam page for it, you should play it. um It's on Netflix too, I believe. I believe it is a Netflix game. I had no idea. there There are a couple Netflix games, so wow i don't have like I don't have Netflix anymore ever since they started.
01:05:09
Speaker
Ever since they crashed down on sharing passwords, for some reason, I don't have Netflix anymore. Weird. Well, you you actually I mean, you canceled your subscription and protest. Yeah, solidarity so yeah. No, absolutely no. um Those are my five categories. Ben, do you have puzzles on your list that don't fit into any of those? I don't know if they they don't fit into this. I would say that i It tell me what what you think is what
Unique Game Mechanics: Parsers and Spellcasting
01:05:41
Speaker
do you think of ah games where and this kind of ties into what I was talking about, ah like, like her story and Hypnospace are games with like non traditional parsers, like extremely different parsers. So not like a difference between like a first person mist type, and like a third person point and click.
01:06:05
Speaker
Uh, but, um, uh, a game like, uh, loom or, uh, you know, a, a game that offers, uh, a, uh, a mechanic that is completely different in how like, in what your verbs are and how you interact in the world. Like, okay.
01:06:30
Speaker
Loom. I mean, you could say a lot like it is there's a fair amount of like kind of deduction and observation because you're going around you're observing ah and and filling in ah the notebook that you got with the game. ah ah But ah All like the only way that you interact with the world is like you you can observe things and you can listen to stuff, but like to interact, you can only use your staff and cast spells.
01:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, that idea of like something very much driven by game specific mechanics is an interesting category. I mean, I think you could bend that a little bit and say it's like, Oh, well, that's its own version of one of these observation puzzles or, you know, yeah yeah you you could, you could, you could classify a lot. that's all I mean, first of all, you don't have to classify anything. That was just my attempt to make sense of the world. And I don't think it is exactly the same thing. I'm trying to think of other good, I mean, spell casting and Kings quest three kind of works as a series of inventory puzzles, copy protection. It's its own spell casting mechanic that exists sort of irrespective of the inventory. It's a weird thing too that I feel like, yeah, maybe some games just have their own mechanic that becomes, you know, a ah part of the puzzle structure of it.
01:07:58
Speaker
I think I think spell casting is one of the most like straightforward ways that a adventure game can really like mix up their like kind of parser and like to some extent like it's just like a spell eventually can be like its own inventory item or something like that but it's like you know something like Chirandia 2 to go back to that, like the spells are part of that. ah There are like, if you go back to like info-com games, ah like the enchanter ah games are all about like spell casting.
01:08:38
Speaker
um ah Yeah, i like, but when I think about a lot of those, the spell casting are like, the spells are all kind of essentially they're inventory items with a different name.
01:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a good Yeah, it's a good way of thinking about it. No, it is something you then just deploy, like you would inventory in a lot of cases. No, that's good. Are there any other puzzles that you like, had on your list that we need to talk about? You know, I wrote down that I thought the mime puzzle in Gabriel Knight one is is pretty clever. That's kind of an inner ah environmental ah puzzle. Like where you where there's a like you need to ah access a bike cops radio. And so you have a mime that follows you around Jackson Square. ah Like follow you up to the point that you take him to a police officer who follows the officer around. That's a great puzzle. Yeah, that's a fun. I think like the I mean, you know, the those game real late night games all had
01:09:47
Speaker
very interesting puzzles, even if I wasn't always you know, like I was I never was able to figure them out. But ah you know, I think that's a clever I think like that's not something that I like that's not a type of puzzle that you often see. And absolutely. So you know, I wanted to single it out. I mean, one that I always think about like I was thinking about some of my favorites and one that I like so much that I've ripped it off and won my own games at one point. I love the improvised voodoo recipe from Secret of Monkey Island. ah When you're on the ship and you need to cast the voodoo ritual to transport you to Monkey Island.
01:10:32
Speaker
And you have the list of ingredients, of which you have on hand, like you need a pressed human skull while you take the Jolly Roger um yeah flag and use that.
01:10:43
Speaker
I love that gag. I think Monkey Island did a couple of times improvising recipes. um That's one that I think is is a good one to come back to. I won't bore the listeners with this hot take I've made elsewhere already, but I love the Babblefish puzzle from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Innovative Puzzle Designs and Time Travel
01:11:03
Speaker
Notoriously difficult, but I mean in terms of like object interaction and a game that is steadily through failure teaching you how to solve this puzzle. I think that is one that functions really well. Just in terms of by the time you get done with it, I felt like, yeah, this is fair. I had to reload a few times. I felt like I'd accomplished something at the end of it and accomplished it largely through my ability to apply some logic and rub some inventory items on things in the environment. So that's a big one.
01:11:39
Speaker
I like, yeah. And, you know, I, I really liked, you know, now I'm just thinking of interesting puzzle mechanics, like in the Blackwell games, uh, some of the, like when you could, and this is only in a couple of the games, uh, like combined notes in your notepad, like using stuff. I think that's really clever in ah the Wajidai, uh, uh, Blackwell games.
01:12:05
Speaker
Yeah. I wanted to call those out just so we didn't stay in the eighties and nineties. That's true. I mean, that's where I'm going to be. If you don't, if you don't go out of your way to make that happen. I mean, yeah if we want to stay in the nineties, I love all of the time travel puzzles and day of the tentacle, of course, cause it's a perfect game. You change something in the past and it affects the future so that you can now start solving puzzles there. Other games have done it. No game has done it as well as a day of the tentacle.
01:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, Dave, the technical is definitely one that I was thinking of because it does have like just like, you know, getting the gerbil from the past into the future, you know, just all sorts of really clever stuff. But yeah, but uh, well, no, no, finish your thought then I'll fight because that was a bugging out. Okay. Well, I don't know. I want to kind of butt back end. Yeah. Yeah. But back, but Speaking of the tentacle, I was thinking of Maniac Mansion also, which is sort of its own thing where now you have characters with special abilities, which is something that doesn't pop up in a lot of adventure games. you know i One character who can fix a radio and another one who's strong or whatever is it kind of an interesting mechanic that does puzzle-y stuff that not a lot of games do.
01:13:25
Speaker
Yeah, it must have been hard to put together. I understand why. When I think about Maniac Mansion and I think about it, it's like, okay, so you have one character that's in every playthrough and then you could pick two out of a pool of what? Five others? um Somewhere around there. ah Then um Like, you know, that, like that, that must have been very complicated. And that's probably why they were like, Oh, wow. It's so much easier to not do that. That's right. I mean, a much more bespoke experience. Yeah. When I think about like the, the, the design challenges of maniac mansion, like I started to get a mild headache. I just can't imagine putting that and making sure that there's no combination of kids that can't win the game.
01:14:14
Speaker
It's wild stuff. But that's a discussion for another time. But you are about to segue. But I think we've wrapped it up and we've talked to every single type of puzzle and there's no other ah type of puzzle to ever talk about. We've done it. We've solved it. We've solved the puzzle of puzzles. Case closed. All right. Case closed. um
01:14:42
Speaker
All right. Well, uh, thank you for joining us for quest quest. Uh, you can always join me on Tuesday nights for adventure Tuesday on Twitch. P S underscore Garrick G A R a K.
01:14:56
Speaker
And you can always join me on Wednesday nights for Retro Adventure Wednesday. That's Decaf Jedi on Twitch. Yeah, and we'll be back next week when we talk about the best guybrush costume in all of Monkey Island. We'll see you there.