Transcript
Speaker: It is Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast brought to you by longer and longer ah pulls off the the theme. Like, i'm i you know, i'm i'm I'm passing the joint to you.
Speaker: I'm just, but I'm, i'm you know, i'm I'm pulling more, more and more. i want more of the theme. I want more of the the royalty free theme. We paid good no money for that. No, we want to get...
Speaker: I paid what you paid. You didn't pay a a red cent. I, I paid that, that humble bundle. We're to pay the minimum amount. i've I remember we actually talked about it and it was such a great charity.
Speaker: All those kids. And Ben was like $1, please. um I will take all of your royalty free music. And i was like, Ben, you know, I'm willing to chip in if you want to help those kids out and had a higher minimum.
Speaker: Don't,
Speaker: It was $2. That helps twice as many kids.
Speaker: one dollar one kid all right folks it's quest quest the adventure game podcast i'm ben also known as ps underscore garrick on twitch and i am jess also known as decaf jedi on twitch where i stream adventure games and i come here and talk about them yeah and we're also under those respective names on youtube as well he could watch us if if if you do you think there are, I, I'd be curious if, if, if you're a listener and that hasn't watched either of our streams, I don't think, I don't think you're out there, but if you are just, just send a, just send an email to quest quest podcast at gmail.com. Cause I, I'm just curious.
Speaker: And tell us why you aren't watching our streams. If so, like what's your problem? I mean, I know people, some people have have said to me, Ben, I watch all of your streams. I don't need to listen to a podcast. That makes a lot more sense. It's like, yeah, I've had plenty of exposure to your opinions about adventure games already.
Speaker: I don't need an additional hour per week. Yeah. Or usually like hour to hour 20 the sweet spot for us. i mean I think that when we're recording sometimes, that's kind of tune you out. I'm like, I've heard all of Ben's but adventure game opinions already. I'll just wait until it's my turn to speak.
Speaker: That's the the horrible thing. Are you much a podcast listener, Jess? I am. i listen to some podcasts. I have a ah long commute to work that I usually fill with podcasts.
Speaker: I see. I have a head full of intrusive thoughts and I live alone. So I listen to a lot of podcasts while I'm walking around to to to keep the demons at bay. yeah But the the, and this isn't an original thought. I'm stealing this thought from someone else. So copyright, whoever said it um is, is that like the, the, the eventual problem of a podcast. Now this is our 19th episode, which is, mean, it feels like, you know, a pretty significant number to me.
Speaker: But ah that like the curse of like a podcast that's been running for years is that eventually the hosts kind of run out of all their mildly amusing anecdotes. Yes.
Speaker: I believe that happened to me about episode six. Yeah. Like I'm just on autopilot at this point. Like, and then we we just both have to start experienc experiencing the world more. And we're, you know, i don't know about that.
Speaker: If I wanted to experience the world, I wouldn't have a podcast. You've been paying attention? I don't want to experience that shit. a Good Lord. No, things seem seem really not great right now so I'd rather just talk about... Pass.
Speaker: Yeah, but i'll pass on real life. And you know, you know, what's really interesting is a point click adventure games and stuff like that. I'll, I'll choose to live in this fantasy world we've constructed for ourselves.
Speaker: So Jess, I have a, I have an email here. That's right. There it is.
Speaker: And his email begins. Hey, Quest Quest podcast. I just wanted to thank you guys for the podcast. I love the topics and watching your gaming streams.
Speaker: So he's a watcher. A viewer.
Speaker: I particularly enjoyed your AGI game podcast. you offered some great perspectives.
Speaker: KQ6AGI.com. Thanks again for the great content. Take care, Brandon. Now, I went to that website.
Speaker: kq6agi.com and you were fished and i was fished but also while i was entering all of my my credit card information i noticed that the the gentleman that made k q six agi His name is also Brandon.
Speaker: The email matches. Uh, uh, so I see right through your ruse, but also I have heard of this and I have played it even before you sent the email. Oh, uh,
Speaker: we've we've turned the tables yet again yeah um i'm not even sure like which way the table is going at this point so this is ah a uh a demake of uh king's quest six done in the uh agi engine which was the engine that king's quest one through three and a version of four Was made in i and ah King's Quest 6 was not.
Speaker: Yes, decidedly not. It was definitely not made in that. And it is such a fascinating. I played it for a good afternoon because I like it was a nice little.
Speaker: was amazing. one of those things, and I think this is the treat of a D make is that you go to each screen and you're just like, Oh yeah, that's, that's neat.
Speaker: That's how they did that. That's how the lab guy got D made. Yeah. And like, and also to kind of live in the fantasy of it's like, if, if this came out in 1985, uh, what would it be like now? I don't know.
Speaker: I don't recall how, how big, um how big it is so maybe it wouldn't have come at like i don't know how many uh five and a quarter uh floppy disks uh this would have had to be on i'm very curious or if it it would have worked on like a a pc jr it is in agi i don't know could be somebody got think has someone done that Yeah.
Speaker: And if someone could just like crowdfund ah for us a vintage PC junior, we would be happy to, to test it out. Ben, you could have it on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. ahhu I'll take you on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and the weekends.
Speaker: and seems a little unfair but well i mean how are you going to divide up seven days between two people that live eight hours apart that's fair uh and i don't have a car and so you will be doing the driving um how far how close does the uh l come to west virginia like if you took the outermost loop
Speaker: i'd probably take the red line to 95th and uh that is about as the the the extent of how far the L goes to the south and east okay so yeah just get to that station and then I will drive and meet you there so it's you know we're both going as far as we can but no I've this project is fascinating to me too I mean on the one hand you're working with some good bones right I mean King's Quest 6 is a fantastic I don't want to spoil my thoughts on King's Quest 6 maybe I hate it
Speaker: That's a good point. I mean, maybe bit ah Ben does hate King's Quest VI. Stay tuned yeah for episode 42 when but we will ah we will discuss King's Quest VI.
Speaker: ah It is widely held as a as a pretty good game. And you know I love, i mean, This is again, that broken record problem you talked about before. ah love AGI.
Speaker: I love 16 color graphics. This is a, this is a charming project for me. I've only watched a few playthroughs on Twitch of this one, but it's on my list to play ah sooner rather than later. So it was great. Great hearing from Brandon. Glad to yeah thank you for reaching out. That was, yeah, absolutely. and Nice hear from you.
Speaker: Yeah. Everyone go check this game out. You should give it a play. Uh, Jess, I have another question for you. Uh-huh. And that question is, what have you been playing?
Speaker: Video games, Ben. Great. Video games. Well, that's that, Ben. Good night. Kill the music. No. You know, lately, just recently, I streamed, and again, I'm cheating here by actually talking about adventure games. I feel like we've been way more on topic already this whole episode. Like, we haven't talked about a sandwich yet.
Speaker: You know, well, we'll get there. We'll get there. and Okay, yeah, we'll work around to it. But no, I played a little bit of Sierra's Conquests of Camelot recently. I streamed that.
Speaker: And Ben, i don't know your feelings on Camelot. I know you're a longbozeman. And... like we'll defend that one uh i love conquest of camelot i had this feels like at least maybe like a duo episode with the two conquest games or maybe both solo um uh because yeah like they're they're they're both very interesting games but please continue Absolutely.
Speaker: i I haven't played Camelot in forever. Going back through it, man, I love it. So you played it at the time? I played it at the time. i bought that sucker at release. Like I saw that at Radio Shack and i was like, I'm going to gobble that one up. The box had your tooth marks on it.
Speaker: It's your Your teeth meets. That's right. i I could not resist it. And yeah I mean, as a kid, it was one of my favorites. But like looking back, I was like, hey I haven't played this thing in decades.
Speaker: Oh, I loved going back and playing it. the The focus on the history, like I know it's a lot of copy protection, but I dig the history enough there that the copy protection doesn't bug me.
Speaker: I had a really fortunate run with a lot of the arcade sequences. I know when you streamed this a couple of years back, that arcade sequences were not kind to you. That's correct. Am I remembering that correctly? That is correct. That's correct.
Speaker: Yeah, i had an easy run. I got lucky on a lot of the arcade stuff. But even with all that, i feel like the game really rose above it all. I just loved it. It's it's one that you know I loved as a kid and coming back to it, I expected to be like, ah looking at it through a fresh set of eyes, I'll probably see a lot more of the flaws.
Speaker: Still love it as an adult. I'm i'm holding back because i could I could talk about this for the rest of the episode. Maybe we should have made that for this episode. Maybe we should. But that's fine.
Speaker: Audible. Yeah. No. We're not talking about Conquest of Camelot. So, Christy Marks and Peter Ledger. My favorite Conquest of the Longbow. One of...
Speaker: the absolute best Sierra games of all time, but we'll get there one day. We'll get there. Put a pin in it because Ben, I want to know what you've been playing. Well, Jess, what I've been playing is so a couple episodes or one episode ago or some episodes ago, I don't even remember anymore.
Speaker: i I was playing Civ 6 to prepare for 7. <unk> seven So I'm now playing Civ 8. No. ah so Okay. misunderstood where that was going.
Speaker: So I'm now playing Civ 7 and, and I, you know, I'm probably going to repeat myself. So i apologize. See, this is where, this is the ultimate destiny. Destiny, as I've said, just going to be repeating ourselves.
Speaker: We're just going to be ASMR for people that, that like two male voices, which is if you like that, you'll love podcasts. Um, good news.
Speaker: And you know, it's a launch Civ. What do you want? Like I've bought Civs at launch since four. So four, five, six, seven.
Speaker: And they, I remember four being especially like just kind of crummy at launch. Like didn't they like overhaul? That game was good.
Speaker: but it it crashed a lot in my recollection, I could be wrong. And then they overhauled like major systems of the game with the later expansion packs Well, that's always the case. That's always the case. That's the case in all of them.
Speaker: Yeah. hi Like, so Civ 7, which I, to be clear, I haven't played a ton of, I'm i'm like nine hours in, so that is to say I haven't finished a game, but,
Speaker: also, uh, it's not that a game has taken me nine hours. It's that like, I've had a couple of false starts where I was just like, Oh wait, no.
Speaker: fucked up one of my save games. And so I had like, it was like either go back to this auto save from many turns ago. And I was like, I'm not doing that again. I'm not playing, picking it up from there.
Speaker: If you're familiar with Civ 7, it's playing to three distinct ages. So I've just started on this game that I'm probably going to complete, the modern age. And i think it's I think all their changes are really interesting and cool. I also think that, you know, they're they're not all there yet, which is the case with Launch Civs.
Speaker: see Like just some stuff, like a lot of people complain about the UI. That's, I mean, sure, it it isn't very communicative in some stuff. i Everybody talked about how bad the UI was for so long that I was expecting it to be like way worse than it is. Like, I just, like, it's just not great.
Speaker: As opposed to, like, I just thought it would just be, i don't know. like just completely incoherent. <unk> Yeah. Based on how people talk about it.
Speaker: um But yeah, I mean, yeah, i like, I think all of the changes in it are really interesting can be done well. I think it's also that, like, it's a shame. I don't know if ah a civilization game could ever be made early access, at to which I'm sure someone at home is saying, well, it is an early access. You're playing Yeah.
Speaker: But, ah like, I think about the couple games that Soren Johnson, who developed Civ IV, has done since Civ which is... Oh, gosh, like this Mars trading, Offworld Trading Company, yeah which is amazing.
Speaker: And then Old World, which is also very good. And for both of those, he kept them in early access for a while. And then I bought them at 1.0. And what I got was a beautifully well-tuned game.
Speaker: that just felt so nice. And with like a big complicated rules board game game, e playing the game and knowing that all of the rules, they all feel very, you know, just nice.
Speaker: There's a nice feel to them. I don't know what the the technical term for it is, but they all feel like those two games, nice all the rules. Yeah, the the rule niceness is at like 10.
Speaker: on both of those they just have a good feeling and like with civ 7 it it doesn't have that niceness it it it does not have and it's like if if you know civ 7 if it was in an actual announced early access for like a year and they're like oh we're trying this idea out we're trying this and and we want to see like, you know, what happens and blah, blah, blah. I think it would make a considerably better game, but I also think that Civilization is too big a franchise for them to ever do that.
Speaker: Maybe wrong. Yeah. It doesn't feel like the kind of game that you would go early access on, even though it's exactly the kind of game that seems like it would benefit immensely from that. And again, you know, someone listening is probably saying to themselves, like, i yeah, Early Access is now.
Speaker: when Like, the 1.0 version of any Civ game, or at least in the Internet era, where they just keep releasing patches and X-Packs and, you know, DLC.
Speaker: Like, that is the early access because, you know, crossed arms, scoffing, it's like a Civ game doesn't really become a Civ game until after the second expansion pack, which is true. Yeah. But, you know.
Speaker: Now, I've read a bunch of reviews of this game. Is it true that civilizational leaders are now divorced from a specific civilization? That's an yeah interesting thing to me.
Speaker: It is. They're divorced. So what it is is that you're a leader and that holds. Though I think you can change that too, but I'm not like, but like you're the leader and that holds and then the civilization, like at the end of an era, that changes.
Speaker: Um, and, uh, the, uh, like you have a limited pool of civs to select from for the next era based off of, uh, and I could be getting this wrong because I'm only in, you know, this, this more complete game.
Speaker: ah But I believe that it is based off of like your options are two that relate to your leader. Like, so I'm playing as Ben Franklin right now.
Speaker: And in the modern era, I had the option of America and I had the option of France. And like it has a little bit of text like that's like,
Speaker: Like one of them is, it's like Ben Franklin was one of the founding fathers of America. and It's like, okay, got it. And then for France, it was Ben Franklin was an ambassador to France or whatever he was. I think he was an ambassador. I've played Pepper's Adventures in Time.
Speaker: know all this. For... for many years. So it's like, it will give, and then it has, I think, two more or something that are kind of based on your actions the previous era. So it's like, oh, well, you had a big navy, so yeah you could also be this civilization that's very naval-focused or whatever.
Speaker: Naval-gazing. Yeah, the naval-gazing. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's really cool, like, there I think are are some people are just outright hostile to all the various big changes. To which I'd say it's like, that's fine. Like, you know, there's a bunch of other great Civs.
Speaker: They all still work, largely. Like, i was I've actually been tempted to reinstall Civ 4 because Civ 4 is extremely good um and and play that. And I like i like that all of the Civs are different.
Speaker: Like they're not each like a like the same game with like slightly retooled stuff and better graphics. They're all kind of a different game. Yeah, core mechanics change. Like probably my big like sim game franchise that I've locked into.
Speaker: It's like been a Tropico fan since the beginning. And there the core mechanics have changed very little. Like you're getting... I would say almost not enough.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it probably needs more. Like, I mean, it really is like... You're getting a few new buildings, maybe you're getting a couple of yeah new options in your policies, better graphics, some new scenarios and stuff, but the core gameplay is virtually unchanged. I appreciate that the Civ series is willing to, yeah especially around things like how it handles like diplomacy or culture and religion and things like that, just like gut that stuff and start over from installment to installment, sort in search of what's be a little bit more fun and what works best. I mean, some level, I know they've like, you know, received criticism. I guess it was six where they really changed the combat mechanics and everybody their mind. It five that they changed it. It was five that did that. Yeah, okay. Stop the music on this. But no, no, that, I appreciate that. mean, I love Tropico and I'll just keep buying those for 49 bucks.
Speaker: even if they're minimal improvements for installment to installment but you know i mean also civ has the 333 rule or 33 33 33 rule which is like 33 new 33 old and then 33 reworked which is like sid those sid meyer's aphorisms and uh the which is like a said one of those sid meyers aphorisms and i the I think the lead designer on Civ 7, Ed Beach, said, yeah we probably went more new stuff on this one.
Speaker: Good. So, yeah. No, I think it's cool. i I think it's cool, but I also think that it doesn't have that nice feel. you know it'll get there i mean that's the nice thing about it i have total faith that it will know it will get there yeah it would yeah it is almost a lot more so than your average game that after a couple of patches this is going to start to fall into place because if it doesn't that's going to be a real departure from at this point decades of uh of this pattern unfolding and having played launch civs and knowing that they're they the game you get
Speaker: you know day one is very different you know like you know i just i went into it expecting that and i i was not surprised all right so yes i have a terrible announcement i have something really tragic to tell you that's oh wow really horrible a very sad thing let me sit down yeah you know what because normally we both do this standing cup yes uh all right jess are you seated yes okay ben And, okay, let me get in my lazy boy.
Speaker: okay and let me kick the feet up. Great. The tragic news is adventure games have died. What? That's right.
Speaker: They're dead. It's going to be bad for our podcast. Well, you know, but I mean, listen, I got, have like, I don't know, three years out of doing a podcast out of a long dead TV show.
Speaker: You know, it got a, it got a cartoon a couple, like a year ago, but I don't count that. But no adventure games are dead. That's why they died. They died. They're dead.
Speaker: buried. I disagree. i think adventure games are alive, but they deserve to die.
Speaker: You know, we we didn't talk about that part, but i I thought you were kind of positing yourself into that we're going to do like a point counterpoint. And I was like, oh, that would be fun. Like, it's like Jess will be on the side of they're not dead. And like, I'll be like the crossed arm people. It's like they don't make games like Monkey Island anymore. And but you went in a completely unhinged direction, which was a delight.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I think that, yeah, I think this genre has run its course. I think that development on all future adventure games should, should shut down immediately. Yeah, well, but you know why?
Speaker: Why? Because I said so. And I'm just, yeah, there you have it. I just, I think it's time. i think it's time for a change. I need to move on with my life. And if people keep making adventure games, I'm just going to keep circling this drain ah possibly until, you know, the day I die.
Speaker: yeah and and then you'll be buried next to adventure games um in that very cool retro game uh graveyard yeah no this been this narrative that adventure games are dying or have been dead has been kicking around for a quarter century or so now yeah they've there because adventure games died the okay so let's let's Let's rewind a smidge and say, when is the time that you would say within the popular imagination that Adventure Games died? If you're somebody that would announce Adventure Games are dead, when when did they die?
Speaker: Ooh, if I had to time at the time of death is 4.30 Dr. Morris. Yes, that's right. I mean, if I'm going to find this like cutting off point, I'm thinking like,
Speaker: 98, The talk had been there for maybe a year or two at that point, but I feel like it's right around 98, 99 that they're really being pronounced dead. 99. Already, like there have been people fretting about it as first person shooters rose to popularity a few years earlier and stuff. But by 98, 99, I think this narrative, the adventure games are dead had really set in and the gaming press, it was starting to set in on the internet as well. What do you think, Ben? Where where would you pinpoint? Yeah, I would say i like, so when did because so there's, there's the, the day that everybody like, not like that,
Speaker: everybody or like the people in Oakhurst or whatever, it like, uh, got laid off at Sierra.
Speaker: and when was that? Was that 98, 99? think that was 99 when they did the final cuts. I mean, they've been slowing down adventure game development for a few years at that point, but was 99 that maybe they asked everybody. So you could say it's like, oh, well it was when they, they did that.
Speaker: But then also like to what you were kind of like, you were starting to say is that it's like, well, I mean, even before that, like, it's like, okay, you could tell that they were trying to get out of it because they,
Speaker: or either they were trying to get out of it or they were trying to, to find ways to make, make them survive, like reinvent it or yeah. Get out of it. One or the other, a little bit both. it looked like it's Sierra was the case at the time. Like we're trying to develop a whole lot of these non-adventure titles.
Speaker: ah Well, and then you have like, so the last King's quest is this like action game. game with like an RPG type like progression system kind of uh and then the last quest for glory uh is definitively a quest for glory game like it doesn't you know you you can't say like in king's quest you're like but uh they tried to to have add this multiplayer component that never like that never shipped I think it was in a demo
Speaker: Yeah. and Even like the Space Quest 7 game that was under development and eventually canceled. I mean, the idea there was some sort multiplayer scheme. Everyone was going to be a clone of Roger Wilco and presumably a lot of the adventure game elements, therefore, would have to be sort of downplayed in favor of whatever probably more action oriented mechanics were.
Speaker: would go on to replace it. So, yeah, I mean, already Sierra was making these sorts of shifts. By this point, you know, LucasArts was starting to focus more of its attention ah war Star Wars. I mean, this is around the time that the prequels are hitting too, right? ah This is the, you so they're in a big boom of Star Wars games around this time.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess for LucasArts, it's fun to point fingers at the games that killed uh adventure gaming but you know grand fandango is one that oftentimes is singled out as ah very expensive game that was you know beloved well i think they said it sold okay i think i think you know i think at the time it was reported it sold kind of poorly um i think that One of the numbers I came up with was around 95,000. Oh, that's not good. The year 2000.
Speaker: I think that later, a lot of the people who worked on this have gone back and said, well, actually the sales weren't quite as dismal as was reported in the media at the time. But I do think it was an expensive game. was a game that got glowing reviews, but didn't catch on in the way that I think a lot of people expected it to. I know it gets pointed out occasionally as a as a game that signaled, oh, wow, the the money that takes to develop adventure games versus the sales we can expect from them by the turn of the millennium makes it a bad business proposition.
Speaker: And then they have Escape from Monkey Island, and then they had two other games that were in, like two other sequels that were in development. They had ah Sam & Max, which i remember i was watching i would i think they had ah even a website for the salmon max i think they did that sounds and i remember checking that website constantly because i was yeah so excited like i was like oh my god there's gonna be max it's gonna be and then oh my god you imagine a 3d salmon max game i i can't i can't uh
Speaker: And then, yeah, there was a Full Throttle, which I know it didn't go through. because Full Throttle was like their last. like That did really well, I believe.
Speaker: Again, you know this is entirely from memory. But I believe Full Throttle what did well for LucasArts. um I believe so. That sounds right to me, too. and But I think they like it also had like a little more of an action.
Speaker: I don't know. I don't know what the, like, I think there is some concept art for, for full throttle to, uh, out there and like some design documents. i'm I'm not entirely sure what that would have, but it doesn't matter. Neither of them happened.
Speaker: Yes. Exactly. Cause adventure games are dead. And then you had, uh, the, the longest journey, which came, which came out then. And, ah like, you know, that felt also like, i because I got it at the time I got it at release.
Speaker: And like, that was a big chunky, like, you know, regardless of, of however you feel it did mark the end for a while.
Speaker: of like a full fat, like game that has like a big budget and is very long. Like say the longest journey, like the longest journey gets a sequel, but it was more puzzle light and had really unpleasant action sequences.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, yeah I feel like the longest journey is like one of our last high profile. mean, don't know I'd call it triple a, but certainly like, you know, There's a budget behind this thing. I think it's it's one of the last big ones for a few years there.
Speaker: And I guess one the questions that that leads to is, you know, what killed adventure games exactly? Or what made us believe that adventure games were dead at this point? Now, I want to go on record here. I don't want to start beef with the Old Man Murray.
Speaker: But famously, ah ah old Man Murray, ah a ah website dedicated to gaming commentary around the the turn of the millennium. Don't go back and read those. they've Some of them have aged poorly.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, they lay the blame squarely at the feet of Moon Logic puzzles. And especially, know, this is the article. Gabriel Knight 3, it just put a big jump on Gabriel Knight 3.
Speaker: Yeah, big a bunch of like cat hair mustache talk is a big part of this. And I don't think this is a compelling argument for why adventure games went away. I think the idea that one game had a few bad puzzles that caused it, caused an entire genre to go away ah feels like a bit of a stretch. It gets satire. This is an exaggeration for the point of you know driving home this argument.
Speaker: i moon logic had been such a part of this genre forever i don't think that is what drove people away from it i don't i think it it you know listen i'm not a a sales analyst but i mean i think i think it's a combination of things and i i think i've you know i've read read again these are not original thoughts like the like adventure games were And i'm I'm sure you've seen this, Jess. I'm absolutely sure you've seen this, this, like the Sierra video about how like cutting edge they are that they put out in like 1993 or 94, where it's like Roberta Williams being like graphics.
Speaker: We always have the cutting edge graphics. It's like, I was the first person to put graphics in an adventure game. I was it like, And like adventure games were kind of the, like the front, the front guard for a lot of computer technology.
Speaker: so it was like types of graphics. And then it's like, wow, like, you know, higher, higher res and then voice acting. Like they were, they were interesting show pieces.
Speaker: Yeah. it' Full motion video eventually. Yeah. They were really on the cutting edge in a lot of ways. And you know, whether or not the people that bought those games or got them bundled with their computer to kind of show off whatever the capability was, it's like, oh my God, like it comes with, like, ah you know, my computer comes with Myst or my computer comes with whatever.
Speaker: um Like, eventually you could, you know, adventure games not only... were not the showpiece genre anymore but also like when they tried to fit in and well like within the new design look it's like all right well we're gonna do gabriel knight in 3d it looks terrible and it controls terribly like it looks worse than the two games that preceded it right like and
Speaker: You know, and that's, that's looking back from 2025. ah You know, that's, that's kind of unfair. It's like, at the time, I remember being excited by anything in 3d.
Speaker: Like, it's like, oh, my God, it's in three d Like, but i I remember seeing a lot of things that today I'd be like, that's hideous. where it at the time it was just exciting because it was in 3d um uh but like want to put my voodoo card to its limits oh my god it was so cool that seeing that 3d effects logo but before you started a game oh it's good stuff you you knew you were in for a good time oh yeah uh like we we had this this uh monster 3d card that had two megabytes of video ram oh my
Speaker: um man that thing would play a blazing round of dakotana uh it was uh we played uh uh the the racing game the pack-in game for our 3d card so here you go the packing game that came with uh our first uh 3d card was uh a racing game was uh this game whiplash i don't know you ever played that um and and i remember seeing whiplash in like voodoo three d for the first time and being like this is like i'm at an arcade you know the place where you would see the best graphics uh like that's right in my house yeah like and uh yeah i don't know i think but i like i'm sure also
Speaker: that Because adventure games are not fun if you're stuck. and you know, like if you're broadening out the the audience...
Speaker: Now, you know, ah some people had have have said it's like, well, it's because ah people got stupider, got computers. yeah And i I mean, that was definitely like you were living on forums around this time, ah just like I was, I think, you know, i mean, that was a lot of the breakdown. This is like we have first person shooters now. And if you were on an adventure game forum, the talk was.
Speaker: that's for stupid people. Yeah. you you Like doom quake, whatever one you want pick out of the pile. Like that's for, you know, for dummies and, uh, and us, us true, uh, true geniuses. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. We'll cling on. Yeah. but Yeah. That will cling to this adventure genre forever. Ben,
Speaker: and So, i mean, you talked about the business side of this. Yeah, I do think that something that happens around this same time is like as we're moving into the 2000s, kind of the, as I understand, the middle market for game development also fell out a little bit. Like we enter into an era where it feels like the business shifts toward the development of giant triple a games and then much smaller indie titles and casual stuff and increasingly as we go forward through that timeline you know moving toward mobile games and things like that and adventure games had always kind of occupied that that middle market position and i think in a lot of ways there wasn't
Speaker: perceived to be a lot of value. mean adventure games, especially you're doing a 2D adventure game, the cost of developing those assets of, you know, generating all that art of getting voice work recorded and stuff. Think about these are pretty costly.
Speaker: what's that toonstruck yeah i mean like a po absurdly expensive and it looks expensive it that's a triple a adventure game i mean the like phantasmagoria and like the fmv like sierra tended tented they had tenter hooks um yeah sierra tended to to to really put their full ass into ah at least some of their adventure games but man toonstruck like you know i think you could look up what the budget was and it's still impressive even like it has this this great cast it looks it still looks remarkable like it such a good looking game the animation and it is so like so smooth like the art is wonderful like
Speaker: As a game, it didn't really do much for me, but I was so impressed playing it. Like, I felt like I was having, like, you know, I was at, like, a very fine dining restaurant. No, i mean, it's a great example because ultimately it's incredibly expensive.
Speaker: It doesn't sell all that well. You know, this is, i think, the fear that a lot of developers got into. You you can't make a game... that looks as good as Toonstruck, or you can't make a game even like a Curse of Monkey Island, for instance, um if you aren't sure that you can get the sales numbers to justify that on the back end.
Speaker: And as the costs began to scale up, yeah I think that the math quit making sense in a lot of ways. And that's when... That's something we're seeing now.
Speaker: like Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this is this has been the story, i suspect, for for all of the history of the video game industry. I mean, now we're in in a bizarre world where game...
Speaker: marvel rivals exactly that's what i was going for it can be wildly successful yeah and yeah it's like well this is great this is really a triumph everyone in the world's playing this and talking about it time to start laying off studios and just you know it's it's unfathomable uh i don't know like i don't know how many business degrees it would take to understand some of these uh some of these decisions my mba only have a few yeah yeah yeah i have two nbas jess of course has an nba played in the nba yeah just played in the nba
Speaker: but no the you know i think that seeing this shift over time i it's when we start seeing you editorials pop up and a lot of these pc gaming magazines about the the death of adventure games there fewer games being made And we have some high profile flops and other genres, especially first person shooters.
Speaker: And then as we start to see like, you know, all the rage around games like Tomb Raider and and some things like that start to take center stage and adventure games start to feel a bit old fashioned. And that's when everyone pronounces them dead.
Speaker: And it's, it's funny because it's like, even then like so yeah, So Adventure Games as ah as ah as a genre, and as yo ah you know, had... An oeuvre?
Speaker: No, not yet. ah Had a fallow period for a bit. But, I mean, you can't even say that there weren't, there were still adventure games being made. it was just not like by like these massive American studios. They were still popular in like Germany and they were still popular, ah you know, internationally some places.
Speaker: So they were still being made. ah like I remember, there ah you know I constantly reference ah they they the digital antiquarian on here because I really like that blog. And he i i recently did a post about, i I think he's actually still in a series ah about like the RPGs are dead ah like post that era, like when they came back.
Speaker: And somebody wrote this very long and thoughtful comment, uh, like in the, the comment section. And you know, that's one of the few blogs where I will say, read the comment section because they're usually very interesting. Absolutely. And not like, you know, a series of slurs.
Speaker: Um, yes, they're very interesting comments and then occasionally slight editing suggestions for tapos and stuff. He always says, thanks. It's very sweet. Yeah. It's very kind.
Speaker: ah But somebody wrote like this long response, which is just like, you know, this is a very like kind of American point of view. This is kind of ah a myth.
Speaker: There were still RPGs being made and played on computers, like in in other countries. You're looking at it from a very limited point of view. And this, again, this is from recollection.
Speaker: So ah apologies if I'm mischaracterizing ah that that commenter's remarks. But it like, The point that is to say like it's like, there's still Siberia, not yeah like the the game, not the region. That's where we should send adventure game developers straight Siberia for their crimes. No, mean, yeah. I mean, you've got broken sword sequels that are coming out, you know, after the supposed death, you've got really good ones, but no, like you've got dream fall. You've got all kinds of stuff. I mean, think this is a really good point.
Speaker: I don't, Part me thinks that when we talk about the death of adventure games, what we are actually talking about is simply the death of adventure games at LucasArts and Sierra. As you said before, a couple of North American countries ah companies quit making these games. And granted, they were the companies most closely associated with the genre by that point.
Speaker: But they never quite disappeared. And it's not like a lot of these titles that are being developed and by European studios at this point are necessarily obscure titles. i mean, these things are getting American releases.
Speaker: These things are showing up on shelves at Walmart. It's not like you have to go and get an imported copy of Siberia. know, they were selling it on the shelves at Best Buy and Walmart and and other fine retailers. These were widely available and selling respectable numbers at the time.
Speaker: there were a bunch of like little, ah like you have stuff like the Nancy Drew games, which, you know, I played one of them and didn't particularly like it, but again, like it's, it's just to the point where it's like, well, they're, they're out there. And it was also at this time. And so this is, so generally we can agree that within the popular imagination adventure games die,
Speaker: uh at the at the the the close of the 20th century uh uh a 20th century art form the adventure game and then uh in addition to that there are a bunch of smaller uh international studios and smaller like studios like you're in the u.s uh making games And I mean, you know, I'll like, I will say, i don't know if I've played that many games from the, the, the odds that I particularly like.
Speaker: Um, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough. Um, but there was also, ah you, you start to get into the, uh, the AGS games.
Speaker: ah uh at that time let me let me see i think ags is made um let's see adventure game studio i've i've got wikipedia this is live this is live wikipedia searching the initial release according to wikipedia of ags was released in 1997
Speaker: That's wild. That's like five years before I would have guessed at least. And then, but the, the first, uh, according to this, the, the, the first complete AGS game, according to this, uh, comes out in late 99.
Speaker: And then, and then this is when I, it caught my attention, which is that, uh, Yahtzee, like, uh, uh, puts out, the the rob blank uh games uh in like uh in 2000 i think and and uh i was actually uh talking to to our friend uh michael uh recently and they uh like they've been playing through some of those early ags games lately
Speaker: That's fascinating. I missed out on this early AGS revolution. Yeah, this is this is an area that i was just not like the odds were a time when I just wasn't playing a lot of adventure games. I kind drifted away from the genre for a little while, even a little bit into the tens.
Speaker: Uh, so like I knew AGS was happening out there, but I just wasn't checking these games out. And I'd be, I should go back and revisit some of these early landmark games. I, um, the,
Speaker: all the Yahtzee ones are like at the time they were considered extremely good. I have not revisited like them, them recently, but I remember like they were so impressive.
Speaker: ah The, so, so AGS for, for those of you not ah familiar, like you might be familiar, ah you know, if you've played Blackwell or really most independent adventure games these days,
Speaker: uh or a lot of them anyway are are made in and ah it's the engine that runs them uh it's a fairly straightforward engine to make games in which is why a lot of people got into it and at that period in the like from like the year 2000 on on there was, I, I'm sure there are still people doing like free games with it, but I'm, you know, I haven't got an eye on it.
Speaker: There was this, this scene of people making, ah these freeware adventure games and they, they were, I played a ton of them at the time.
Speaker: Uh, I, I played, uh, like I was so fascinated, ah by those, ah by those games i because they, it was so exciting that there were new adventure games, but they were also new adventure games made by like, you know, people, my age, like made by people that played adventure games.
Speaker: And they also like, they were all very handmade. Like they had like MS paint. Yes. Aesthetics. That's the aesthetic I imagine when I think about this era. Yeah. And honestly, that's something that I think that's aged like a fine wine playing, playing a game that, ah you know, that somebody that's like 16 years old or like probably like 16 to like early twenties, probably I would guess ah like drew an MS paint or or something like that. Maybe a pirated version of like an earlier ah like Photoshop.
Speaker: uh like and it has that that kind of you know you just you just know it you know you're familiar with what the spray paint spray is yes you can spot that anywhere absolutely yeah you can that particular collection of pixels is very uh very recognizable yeah and like i mean and and i remember Like, you know, ah through you, through your website, like I got to know of ah those two AGI, like ah Space Quest ah fan games.
Speaker: Yeah, The Lost Chapter and Space Quest Zero Replicated. Both impressive games. Replicated in particular is is ah is a really fun little romp. And like, it was, you know, like, so that period, I don't really think about like the, the commercial releases because I didn't, I didn't, uh, like I played a few of them and and they didn't do too much for me, but all like the fans stuff,
Speaker: was exactly what I was looking for at that time. ah Not entirely just because they were free also, but that helped because I was 16 years old. Yeah.
Speaker: No, I mean, and this is fascinating. and We've got that boom going on basically as adventure games are being declared dead, you know, at the at the turn of the century. ah That boom is happening. here I was looking up some of the numbers on this earlier.
Speaker: You know, It's in 2001 that the Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney series launches. Got that. Got that at release. um Yeah. and As we get later in the aughts, you know, by then Professor Layton is out there. Both sort of interesting spins on the adventure genre. They're not point and clicks in the traditional sense, but. And also very international series.
Speaker: Like, that's right. Not from America. Like, so it's like, you know, you can't say it's gone. You could just say that it's like, they're just not being made by ea you know? And then here's what really fascinated me.
Speaker: So we're declaring adventure games dead, 1999, 2000. Sam and Max saved the world from a telltale games is releasing by 2006.
Speaker: two thousand and six Yeah. Like, and I, I played that at the time that, that came on. that that was on game tap which was a early game streaming service but not really a game streaming service it was just like a front end where you would download the games yeah and you play the digital storefront yeah like you you paid a subscription so all the games on it which had a remarkable catalog yeah including like had like dreamcast games on it um
Speaker: uh like it had it had some really cool stuff on it and uh and then yeah salmon max and american mcgee's alice uh was it no not alice it was uh american mcgee like he had like some sort of a game on it alice alice was a game he did before that but he had some like it was a fairy tales game or something gotcha twisted fairy tales game yeah those were the originals on it and i remember like getting like getting game tapped so i could play the new salmon max because was you know i was so heartbroken that uh the the salmon max didn't come out and was like oh finally finally they're doing it they're doing it
Speaker: doing it See, I think that I played the first episode that, which I think at some point was part of a free trial or something. I seem to remember playing the first episode of of Sam and Max and then didn't revisit it again until years later when the remaster came out.
Speaker: But again, that's 2006. This idea that, I mean, if adventure games were dead, they didn't stay in the grave very long, right?
Speaker: Well, you know, the funny thing is, is that I played it And at the time i was just kind of like, it really, I was, I was just kind of disappointed. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Like I'm playing it now, uh, on my, my stream. I'm, I'm playing this really great Skunk Ape, uh, remasters. Uh, I'm, I'm playing the the first season right now on my stream.
Speaker: Shout out to Skunk Ape. And, i I think it's so funny and I think like it, it, I mean, it looks great, but you know, that, that is like the remaster. They, I think the, the visual upgrade is, is so well done.
Speaker: But I mean the writing is, they, they, they changed a couple jokes and one of the voice actors, but in largely like it, it's a similar product. And I think at the time,
Speaker: And I know I wasn't alone in this at the time. it just kind of felt like I was getting in the same way that if, if you played ah like some of those point and click, like those lower budget, non Sierra, non Lucas arts ah adventure games that came out ah in that like kind of interim period.
Speaker: i the it it felt like i was playing like a lesser than product you know it felt little budgety to you it felt a little too budgety especially like if you compare to and like as we're speaking you're playing on your stream i was having fun uh watching you last night uh the uh hit the road and like hit the road still looks incredible like this yeah like it just has this really beautiful art style
Speaker: ah And like, I just remember thinking like, it's like you got a handful of locations. Each, each game could be completed.
Speaker: Like each episode can be completed in like two hours, two, three hours. i You know, the voices are wrong because they're not the same ones from hit the road. So I'm like, I hate the voices. They're not the right voices.
Speaker: And i just remember being like, kind of like I played it. And in the Abraham Lincoln episode and the following one, they brought me in because they were lot more elaborate.
Speaker: That's episodes four and five. um But like, especially those first three, I was just like, yeah and the funny thing is now playing it, uh i'm like i would love to play a game that's like an adventure game that's just ah couple little ah pleasant bites as opposed to like playing it and it's you you have these these nice you could finish each up each episode in like a little sit down maybe two if you're having you know some trouble with the the puzzles and it's like that's so nice
Speaker: Yeah, I think I said this our Discord recently. I don't think I've ever been angry at Adventure Game for being too short. um There's something beautiful, especially as I've aged into, you know, someone who's in my twilight years now.
Speaker: yeah yeah this is it for you yeah then and yeah an hour and 45 minutes yes please i want a story with a beginning middle and end that i can complete in you know less than two hours absolutely give me that every day and it works really great for streaming too it's really a win-win all around the first season is is a lot of fun too because it's like the it's by design very formulaic and by design like it's like it's just like episodes of a sitcom and i think that's what they had in mind ah yeah i believe and
Speaker: i for for all the the people that felt that they were being ripped off like me like each subsequent season like in seasons two and three are way more elaborate ah Yes. yeah Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah I was just thinking, isn't it wonderful that here in the mid aughts, you know, we're going back, we're going to dip into the yeah original golden age of adventure games. We're going to pluck out a game to create a new sequel to how perfect is it that like Sam and Max is the property that comes back. Just just what a fantastic series.
Speaker: and uh just wonderful couple of characters it's good that you know if adventure games are going to be dead that sam and max don't stay dead very long yeah and it but i mean at the time it felt like it was forever but also i mean to like the first like hit the road is 93 and yeah that's a big gap and i mean but also we were like tiny children and young adults and like a small gap of a few years oh it feels like a lifetime you know and And by the i mean but by the end of the aughts, I guess 2009, we've got Tales of Monkey Island ah coming out. and
Speaker: yeah it's really gone Which again at the time I didn't like. And then I've gone back and played and been like, you know, bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I was wrong. Yeah. I feel i feel i was so uh i was so rude ah to to telltale games i think think a lot of people owe apologies and i include myself in this yeah oh apologies to telltale games they did really good work and i'm sorry I think it's also important for those listening, you know, a lot of the opinions that Ben is expressing now will also turn out to be wrong in the long run. I mean, he has a proven record, as he's just stated, ah being incorrect about adventure games. So, you know, just just stick around. His opinions change like the weather.
Speaker: But then, so As we get to 2010s! we We start to... Then we enter, and we we've talked about this already, but this is when the the beginning of... And actually...
Speaker: uh you know again this is probably another case of that uh the the first one is actually way earlier than i thought like so you have uh time to open ah time to to open uh wikipedia again you have the shiva which is a uh a commercial game uh and that comes out in 2006 wow uh wow
Speaker: ah and i don't know actually if the uh like the first version of like because there's the shiva and then there's the shiva kosher edition which like he redid the graphics um i don't i don't recall if the original version is uh was on sale. I'll say it is. Uh, but also, I mean, the, the first Blackwell game comes also comes out in 2006. So whatever, doesn't matter.
Speaker: We've already talked about the Blackwell legacy, but those are ags games. And those are also, pretty short you just played legacy fulfill the legacy from our our earlier podcast and that was was that one stream was that it was like a good two hour stream yeah that probably should have been hour 45 but i was really struggling toward the end yeah it's it's a it's a one streamer would and i would say probably the second game and maybe the third game are also one streamers uh maybe the third is like one and a half
Speaker: ah But like, so you start to like once, especially ah Steam allows people like you don't have to go through like a ah shady website because that kind of prevented me from buying some of those AGS games. And also I was like, AGS is a free game platform.
Speaker: Why would I pay for something when people are making free games? That's right. why Harlan Ellison got so pissed off about people working for free. um but but like you know i was just kind of like well ags is for free games why would i why would i get that but then also and i think and in a in a chat that i have like not on this podcast but like francisco uh brought that up grundislav brought that up uh like uh in ah in a conversation once it's like, oh, well, you know, also like then games, adventure games started to go on to Steam and and that also kind of changed how things were.
Speaker: Absolutely. I mean, by the time, I mean, Blackwell and ah the Wajidai games in general are are ahead of the curve on this. and You know, but i think by the time we get to the 2010s, we see this, you indie boom, sort of ah an indie renaissance in in adventure gaming.
Speaker: that really takes hold. I mean, there's some high profile games. yeah I'm thinking of like a broken age, which famously, you know, rose to prominence on the back of a Kickstarter. That's about 2014.
Speaker: You've got games like Firewatch in 2016, Thimbleweed Park in 2017, some high profile indie stuff. You've also got big studios. uh, dipping this. i mean, by the uh, you know, telltale is booming like crazy. The walking dead is 2012.
Speaker: Wolf Among Us 2013 by 2015. Life strange. has there, life strange as 2015. Yeah.
Speaker: but twenty fifteen laugh is strange ah has your wife as strange as twenty fifteen Ben, life is strange is 2015. Jesus. Another thing that I thought was a lot sooner than it there was. Holy shit. That was 10 years ago. And then you've got like big wild budget stuff. Like, I mean,
Speaker: la noir has some adventure game elements uh incorporated into it you've got games like heavy rain uh that are offering some cinematic choice driven narrative adventure-y kind of stuff i mean the 2010s is full of ah mix of very traditional point and click games and then games that increasingly are you know like walking dead or life is strange that are building on the narrative focus of adventure games with maybe lighter puzzle elements incorporated at the same time i mean for a dead genre there are a lot of pretty big games happening around this time and and
Speaker: And now can we, can we jump to now? Or do you have more to say about ah the last decade? Jump to right now. I like, listen, and this is, you know, you, you were, you you alluded to it.
Speaker: I'll allude to it. Like I'll, I'll say it like, I'm going to say it now. And with my whole chest here, just say, just say it the games being the adventure games being made now that you can find now on itch and steam and gog and wherever else you look are better.
Speaker: They are better now. These are better games. They have more thoughtful design. That is not to say that the games made before were bad. It's not to to to attack, like, you know, especially a lot of those developers are still around.
Speaker: yes no well man Why do you hate Day of the Tentacles so much? It's just... It's like, listen, if you've ever watched the Kohl's do their Twitch stream, they're a very sweet old couple.
Speaker: It's like, all their games how can you be saying that? These nice, this remarkably nice people. yeah But he's saying it and he's going to stand by it. So go ahead. What do you hate about the Kohl's?
Speaker: They seem like the nicest people. They really They honestly do. I mean, it seems like they've been the nicest people for decades now. Like, I've never heard anything bad about it. It would be fun to have like a big feud between our podcast and the Kohl's. But I feel like we're going lose a lot of a lot of goodwill in that argument. side um Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I would quickly turn against you and join the Kohl's.
Speaker: But the the game's being made now. Like, obviously, i we we talked about Hypnospace Outlaw, which I've said is one of my absolute favorite games, like, made.
Speaker: Yeah. hypnospace outlaw you you have i mean the the previous game ah that uh jay tholen worked on dropsy i think that's a remarkably good game i you know there's a lot of great like locomotive uh which we played and not only that the game's coming out now i would like they are like i don't feel like like i'm being like cheated by length or looks or anything like as a as a player like everything looks really good stuff they're in not entirely but uh like you're also starting to get games where uh that that play a little more out of uh kind of
Speaker: There's the indie game ah Adventure Aesthetic, which is a very, like, stuck-to-1992, like, VGA pixel look. And, you know, now you'll you'll play games that are... And not, again, not to say that they there weren't games that were playing outside of this before.
Speaker: It's just that you're, like... I'm seeing more games now, or at least ones that attract my attention, that that look, that have an aesthetic of their own that isn't trying to either evoke 1993, nor are they trying to be like, oh, like this is like you know doing the most cutting-edge technology.
Speaker: they They look like a game that's an adventure game made 2025. in twenty twenty five Right. They they have a thoughtful artistic ah aesthetic that they pursued in service of their own game rather than to remind people of a game they loved 30 years ago, ah which, yeah, there's definitely something to be said for that. I mean, yeah, when you I think what fascinates me about.
Speaker: the modern era is just the amount of variety that's out there. If you want a game that feels a lot like the Sierra and LucasArts games that you love, those are out there.
Speaker: I mean, locomotive very much feels like it could fit right into the LucasArts catalog in a lot of ways. It definitely has those sorts of vibes. If you want something way more experimental you know you can take like a kentucky route zero uh or you could take another one of my favorite yeah i mean even if you want like disco elysium uh into you know sort of an rpg adventure uh combo sort of sorts you can go in some pretty weird places um there's a lot more diverse games which yeah i take a like you know that's uh the the ankle people um
Speaker: you know come out of ah like interactive fiction, text adventures, ah and like ah the the scene ah from there, and then made their own kind of... They made the the ink engine, which has its own very specific look and feel, and then they've been even doing...
Speaker: more like kind of wild and experimental games from starting from adapting ah adventure books uh like the sorcery yeah ah books and then they did you know like overboard which is just a remarkably fun and and clever and strange game and uh 80 days which i adore um and uh like uh you know they they've been doing great work i highland song i think was a recent one that i play i've played a bit of i forgot it's it's it's title highland something uh that was really good
Speaker: But I mean, and I think it's worth saying too, you know, not only do you have all this variety, but you also have such a more diverse group of developers who creating these games, which means you're going to get the kinds of stories that wouldn't have been told back in the early 1990s, which is fascinating as well. I mean, can you imagine 1993 playing a game set in Canada?
Speaker: But here we have the Crimson Diamond now Anything's possible. know what Canada was in 1993 and I went to Niagara Falls yeah but say it on the on the U.S. side yeah famously the the place where you get the good view that's right that's exactly right um but now I this is think one of the advantages of you know what I would argue is a second golden age of adventure games that we're living in right here and now. I mean, I think that describing this genre as dead or boy, you know, I'm someone who has built like so much of my
Speaker: my online persona, my brand, if you will. You know how like to think about branding, Ben. know, I'm a big branding kind of guy. um I've built so much of that around nostalgia.
Speaker: And it's a little bit risky for me to say that the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia may be getting the way for some folks out there of appreciating where we're at now. But yeah, i mean, if you're someone who loves adventure games,
Speaker: you can fill up a steam wishlist and library with more adventure games that you could play, ah in a year's time, no problem. Uh, and that's, uh, I mean, compared to, yeah know, what we tend to think of as the golden age, the late eighties, early nineties of adventure games, uh, you know, Sierra and Lucas arts were,
Speaker: never turning out that much product ah with that much variety and with that kind of, you know, ah you know, consistent quality, even when they were firing in all cylinders.
Speaker: Yeah. And I, you know, and I think also there's the. Yeah. you know, and i I've said this on here before, there's a level of thoughtfulness about the design that comes from the people who are making the games being fans and people who played these games themselves where like, it's like, you know, they look at,
Speaker: you they they all everybody remembers the uh the boot in king's quest five and they're just like well i'll never do that fucking thing or like the goat and broken sword yeah and and so there's generally a much more like thoughtful and responsive design ah like ah that you know ah as as much as it was said ah was it was a canard and I do believe it was but it's like you you can't hold to the the old man Murray complaints with with the the games today because they're made in a very ah like thoughtful and interesting way ah because they're people who have been frustrated by adventure games
Speaker: That's right. You one of the strangest things, like, especially i think with a lot of the Sierra developers, like when you hear stories about just like how many of them weren't necessarily gamers themselves while they were designing adventure games. I mean, you have some like, you Josh Mandel came into the company as someone who was a gamer. The Coles had a lot of experience with tabletop stuff and other things. But, you know, ah I don't know if Jim Wiles had ever seen a computer game before he sat down to design. And and what do you know? ah Somehow those games turned out perfect. He was a savant.
Speaker: yeah you know he was down at the the piano and you know ah created right in c plus plus it was just it was it was just beautiful um no i mean it's uh yeah uh that level of thought that goes into the uh into the modern games in the genre Yeah, I think it gives us an opportunity to power through some of those old man Murray style frustrations of cat hair mustaches. And here, Ben, the cat hair mustaches isn't even the worst puzzle in Gabriel Knight 3.
Speaker: What is? ah What is the worst puzzle in Gabriel Knight 3? Yeah, Jess, what is the worst puzzle in Gabriel Knight 3? the worst puzzle in Gabriel night three. Is that what you're asking about? Yeah, Jess, I'm asking you in Gabriel night three, uh, the blood of the damned question, sacred blood of the damn. Yeah.
Speaker: What is the worst puzzle? Oh, it's a Gabriel, not three, uh, the worst for the damned. Yeah, okay. So the worst puzzle in Gabriel Knight 3, Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned, is later in the game when you have a window that's stuck that won't open and you need to like climb through this window, I think to get into a church, if I recall correctly.
Speaker: And the way that Gabriel Knight gets this window open is he smears hemorrhoid cream on it, which causes the swelling of the window to go down.
Speaker: I don't know why anyone has ever talked about the cat hair mustache. When there's a puzzle that you use hemorrhoid cream to reduce swelling in a wooden window ah so you can open it more effectively. That is a thousand times crazier than a cat hair mustache. Is that that's later in the game?
Speaker: Yeah, most people didn't get there. was going say, I don't think that people made it that far. I think that was why. That's right. I mean, yeah. So, yeah, we've learned our lessons from ah from cat hair mustaches and hemorrhoid windows. That's pretty funny, though.
Speaker: I kind of like is that puzzle. That puzzle would be great in like Sam and Max or Day of the Tentacle. Yeah. That, I mean, yeah, that's that's actually a really good puzzle concept for a more absurd adventure game. it's If it was Toonstruck, it would have absolutely worked and everyone would be like, that's so funny.
Speaker: yeah cause you're Yeah, it's like a thinking outside the box. How do I make something that's swollen less swollen? Oh, I found some hemorrhoid cream. Ha ha ha. But in Gabriel Nat 3, which is a very serious adventure about a baby that's kidnapped by vampires, Ben, you've got to take things seriously.
Speaker: It's like kind of like Labyrinth, except it's goblins. Um...
Speaker: All right. Well, you know, I think ah we we solved it. And time to to call up the Gravedigger because ah ah this genre. We need to exhum this body. Yeah. Time to exhum it.
Speaker: It's banging. Oh, my God. Jess, I i hear it. I have my my ear to the ground and I hear, help. Is it like Uma thermoning its way out of it? Yeah. With little punches. Yeah. um it's It's Uma. It's Uma-ing. It's Oprah-ing. It's doing it all.
Speaker: Yes. As soon as I said Uma, i like had a countdown going in my head on how long it would take you to say Oprah. And I was like thinking 10 seconds and you got it in six. it' So thank you.
Speaker: you You say Uma to me and I i make a Uma-Oprah reference, of course, referencing David Letterman hosting the Oscars in about two seconds. Like ah it just...
Speaker: There's a part of my body. It's it's like ah the the bus and speed. If I do not make an Oprah reference the second that I hear Uma, but not or Oprah. but what Would Oprah do it though? i feel like Oprah does not trigger that part of my brain. like No, Oprah doesn't trigger that. it's it's I think it's because Uma comes first in the construction.
Speaker: ah That wonderful joke that deserves to be talked about ah years and years later.
Speaker: what's wrong with our brains ben maybe that should be an episode like why is it and why should i know that i can say that and that you will immediately say oprah like that seems troubling too this is why we're yeah co-hosts i mean yeah we're just our destinies are always tied together i think i think we have uh brains that kind of stick to the same stupid jokes uh i i think that's it like it's it's just i mean okay all right so time to get off topic i uh jess you watch drag race right absolutely i do yeah so you remember uh like this season um uh when hormona did that stand-up set that was just dog shit yeah
Speaker: Yes, for Mona Lisa during a stand-up challenge. guess it was a talent challenge. No, it wasn't. It was a talent challenge. She chose to do this. She was not forced to do this. It was not a snatch game, which was also a mess, but it was.
Speaker: it was a talent it was open-ended do a talent that she's like i'm gonna do stand up and everyone around her is just like what are you talking about yeah i mean you know in a world of drag queens on this show many of whom are quite funny the idea that she would choose to do a comedy show was already a fraught endeavor and So, so anyway, when I watched Drag Race, I watch it, uh, uh, with, with my friends.
Speaker: Uh, I, it's a, it's a good show to to watch with pals. Um, yeah and when that happened, when we were watching Hormona, uh, uh, do the, the standup, which was all ah terrible one-liners,
Speaker: I was losing my shit laughing. I was laughing harder and harder and harder. Every joke that came out and bombed. I was just like, this is so funny because it like, it just kind of looped around for me. Like to see someone and who, who spent the entire time remarkably confident that like she like just had this in the bag and then just kind of comes out and just confidently delivers these terrible jokes i was just losing my shit laughing and then i'm gonna take us even more off topic to say please
Speaker: It took me back to a memory of I was in this ah comedy ah variety show here in Chicago. and This is in like 2008. This is a long time ago.
Speaker: And there was this awful comedy variety show. i And like the the type of show that ah the only people going ah like that were in the crowd were the performers that were waiting to go up.
Speaker: and maybe like yeah maybe a couple of their friends and it was hosted by this guy who was also ah dog shit stand-up just awful um and he goes out and he does his jokes and he like like hammers like just grinds the punchline into the the audience and gets no laugh and then so he says he says his joke terrible punchline and then there's a beat of silence and this was a tiny theater and then immediately backstage like behind the curtain the actually good stand-up that i was there to see who was who's going to follow him just lost his shit laughing and then the audience started to laugh because then the joke was that the next stand-up was just making to
Speaker: like it was silence like and then we're all like no all right okay are we done what's the hardest you've ever bombed oh my god i i mean like you know i've been in a couple really I've been in a couple terrible improv shows and a couple really terrible sketch shows. And the worst, the worst thing about that, like, it's like, i don't, I don't have a really good story about it because it's it's just essentially that like I'm doing sketch or improv and I'm, I'm out there and the audience is there and we're, we're doing stuff and no one laughs when they're supposed to. you
Speaker: ah And like, you know, you just have this, this horrible, horrible feeling, ah terrible, terrible feeling. And it's like, and you like that. It's like this intense, like I have to fix it.
Speaker: feeling and so you start to either go off script if it's scripted to see if you can kind of you know make a little funnier or uh uh uh you know you you really just go ridiculous in your improv both of which are worse and the audience can smell it.
Speaker: The audience knows. And I remember a very good, uh, instructor, I had, he like, I was talking to him, uh, uh, not specifically about when I bombed, but like I saw somebody else bomb. And like I said to him, I was like, what do you do?
Speaker: Like if you bomb and he's like, that's when you go ah slow as possible. You just slow down and you check in with the person you're doing it with or just slow down with yourself and stand up or whatever.
Speaker: You just really, really slow it down so you can get control of the situation. And that's what works. And he was right. Like that. Yeah. That works, but that is against every single one of your impulses.
Speaker: It is you rush turning into the skid when you're when you're like on ice and you're just like, I gotta gotta to get out of this. you know i Okay, we're gonna we're going to have to save this for another one. because they Maybe even save it for the Patreon because I have an incredible story about seeing something just eat shit.
Speaker: Yes, please. This is going our longest podcast. um So i i years ago, I was at like a ah small time film festival.
Speaker: And like tiny, tiny, tiny, small time, like not like the the tiniest. And ah there's like... And it was all like, you know, kind of local people and they were all like high schoolers and college students.
Speaker: And so everything was like, you know, a five minute little comedy video and none of them were particularly good, but they were all kind of, you know, charming. And then this one guy who is not particularly well liked by some folks, ah like he had a movie in it and it was a short film.
Speaker: He was somebody that was going to like ah film school. It was going to be like a drama. And it was like 15, 20 minutes. And so like there's kind of anticipatory buzz ah because it's just like, oh, you know, like there's all this, you know, all this goofy crap.
Speaker: Like there was one guy that just did like the the Six Flags ah commercial where it's like the old man. Somebody just and did that. That was their short film.
Speaker: they just did that okay like you know like that was about the the level of quality we're dealing with but it's like all right this guy he has he has this short film and it's a drama and um so it goes is awful ah and it is off And it was, like, starring people that we knew in town.
Speaker: oh no. So it was, like, also, like... you know, you kind of see like someone would walk in and they were all acting, but they're not good actors. So that's already kind of funny.
Speaker: Like seeing someone that you recognize and then like they're acting and they're not an actor. ah And like, and then it's like very dramatic and sad and no one's able to hit anything.
Speaker: And the... so
Speaker: the
Speaker: the the The movie has like three parts, it's three little short stories, if I recall correctly. And in the first one, I'm watching it and and I'm like, it's it's driving nuts. I'm just like, this is...
Speaker: this is this is something and then in the second part this uh there's a scene and the the the first part's also a slog it's about like a father who's like daughter dies so it's just like you know boring well it's it's but it's like a slog in that it's like really depressing and then also you know not well done yes which is the worst um weird combination and And so there's a weird energy because it's like, and it's, it's just a bunch of bad things happening to this guy. They're all really tragic, um but it's done in like not well. So it's kind of like, but the second one starts and it begins. And there's a guy sitting at a desk and,
Speaker: And you can see on the camera, he's sitting at like a computer desk and you could see that he's just banging a keyboard and you could tell, like, you can see the screen. You could see Microsoft word and you could just see like HKJ, like, you know, just like, he's not, he's not.
Speaker: So you could just see that. And then the phone rings, he picks it up and then just immediately says, you're firing me.
Speaker: and This was not, you know, ah know this isn't one of my proudest moments, perhaps, but maybe it is.
Speaker: um
Speaker: i I broke. I broke. and my breaking gave permission. to the entire audience oh no and so now like the floodgates are open because it's just like yeah like i'm just sitting there the whole time i'm just like and then it's just you're firing me and then i'm just like and then everybody's just laughing and just all this shit happens we're all just laughing and laughing and laughing and then the the host like comes out and like makes like dryly
Speaker: they says something that makes fun of the movie and everybody just loses their shit like just scream laughing and then the intermission ah the uh i see that guy and his entire family which occupied a room stand up and exit and i'm like oh no so that's the hardest anymore after that yeah i think that's the hardest i've ever seen anyone bomb and i've seen colin quinn bomb um wow uh anyway that's his story and he's sticking to it and folks that's why adventure games aren't dead they sure are alive that's right yes now
Speaker: if you enjoyed this episode of quest quest and why didn't you, because it was great. Uh, why don't you give it a review? Five yeah early numbers look great. Yeah. Like what we're hearing the feedback already. The Q rating is through the Q. Um, now,
Speaker: I've had such a bad day today. I'm so, I've had such a miserable day today and and there's just something going on up here. Um, anyway, uh,
Speaker: so, um, uh, if, if rate and review, yeah have find and suggest us to a friend, here's the thing. If everyone listening to us recommends this podcast to 20 people,
Speaker: it will grow our numbers so immensely. I can't tell you like just yeah take 20 of your closest friends who love adventure games that can't overlap with anyone else's 20 friends who love it adventure games.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That, and yeah. I mean, we'd be the hottest adventure game podcast in, uh, North America right now. That's right. but Take that. Um, now, uh, and you could send us an email at quest quest podcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: Uh, and, Join us and next week. Yes. When we talk about. yeah When we talk about.
Speaker: Next week. Next week.
Speaker: King's quest five dash two, where you just spend more time in the city. you get, you work at the tailor. You find out what's really going on there until then.
Speaker: Bye.
