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Codename: Iceman (w/ Grayson)
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Grayson joins to discuss Codename Iceman, the completely inexplicable submarine simulator slash mild spy-ish thriller that we're all obsessed with.
You can play Grayson's Codename Iceman fan prequel: Kidname: Iceboy right here: https://graysond.itch.io/kidname-iceboy
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
Give us a review, they help people find this show! Unless you hated it, in which case, don't.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Dynamics
00:00:24
Speaker
oh it's quest quest the adventure game podcast yeah i've been doing like really high energy uh you know openings and so i thought maybe i'll mix it up but yeah we've been getting a lot of feedback like it starts big and really tapers off quickly so we don't get any feedback at all but but okay that's also true ah you it We're just podcasting into the void.
Community Engagement on Discord
00:00:52
Speaker
ah nice half dozen of people kindly discuss it on our on our Discord every Tuesday morning, which is always nice to see. you're part of that half Discord, wait, half dozen on the Discord? if you're The dirty half dozen. d I salute you and I want you to know i am standing up and saluting and saluting will be a large part of discussion of today, but I don't want get too far ahead.
00:01:21
Speaker
No, that would be wrong. Yeah, this is quest quest the adventure game podcast. I'm Ben and I am Jess.
Host and Guest Introductions
00:01:29
Speaker
I twitch stream as PS underscore Garrick.
00:01:35
Speaker
And I'm Decaf Jedi. Yeah, we're also both on YouTube under those respective names. And this week, we have a guest, but don't get excited.
00:01:47
Speaker
you know, Ben didn't say special guest. Yeah, just like guest. You know, when do you see a movie... And for some reason, when you're watching the movie in the credits, the will say it will say, and special guest, and we'll have a name. You'll be like, what do mean special guest? It's a movie.
00:02:06
Speaker
Movies can't have special guests. It's just someone you invite to the set. It's like, we just invite this person the set, and then we got a few scenes with him. We found this guy.
00:02:17
Speaker
he was eating sandwiches. we point the cameras at him anyway so we have a guest uh this week his name is grayson hello grayson hello it's me i i'm here on the podcast Grayson, uh, streams, uh, adventure Tuesday
Grayson's Game Tease
00:02:35
Speaker
with us. And also, uh, he made a game, uh, which we'll discuss as part of today's podcast, but what that game was, I'll keep under my hat.
00:02:45
Speaker
Wow. I didn't know you had a hat, Ben. Yeah. Well, I do. ah big 10 gallon hat. it's ah It's a, it's a 10 gallon hat. Uh, but, uh, you know, don't, don't actually measure that. Don't, don't try to.
00:02:58
Speaker
Pour milk in it. Yeah. oh Pour milk in his hat, people. You don't do that to a Texan. What? Anyway, Grayson, how are you doing today? Good to hear you. I'm doing good. It's an honor to get to sing the theme song, as your guest always does.
00:03:14
Speaker
ah And you know what? It's nice, because normally, Ben, I'm more of a sidekick to you on our stream. ah A real lowly, sort of pathetic role. And I feel like as a guest, my status is is heightened a little bit. No, it's not. Yeah, this is huge. Now you have a chance to be a sidekick to me.
00:03:31
Speaker
Oh, okay. Oh, so are you in charge of this podcast, Jess? No, he's not. Well, mean, depends on who you ask. No! Well, I think I know who I who i should ask. and We'll talk later, Jess.
00:03:42
Speaker
All right.
Wikipedia and Credibility Debate
00:03:45
Speaker
Grayson, I brought you on this podcast because we brought you up. And by we, I mean me. brought you up two episodes ago wow uh uh because i i said ah you're my wikipedia man that's true every every guy needs to know a wikipedia man You need that person to win arguments.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah. And in that, ah ah I said, I'd ah take this ah edit, this necessary Wikipedia edit, and send it to my Wikipedia man. um looking at the and I'm looking at the Wikipedia page for Jawbreaker film, Jawbreaker parentheses film. hu And at the bottom of the the first section here, it does not have a citation needed after it says,
00:04:30
Speaker
While it was a critical and commercial failure at the time of its release, it has come to gain a cult following. up update but But there's no citation on that. That needs a citation needed.
00:04:41
Speaker
And you know how I am. I don't... You stop there. You're done. You close the tab. I point at Wikipedia and say, this needs to be changed. And then I call my Wikipedia man.
00:04:53
Speaker
yeah And that's you. Mm-hmm. Yeah, show me one ritual sacrifice inspired by the movie Jawbreaker, and I'll believe it's a cult film. Here's the thing, Ben. ah With all due respect, um right I think there are citations for it. There is down in the reception. There are multiple citations so or no supporting that it's come to be an occult following. Yeah, but it needs to have that claim up there.
00:05:17
Speaker
I have a reputation to uphold. I can't be throwing citations. If you want to throw your IP address in the Wikipedia garbage. This is interesting. Okay. So despite the negative. Okay. So under legacy, this is interesting.
00:05:31
Speaker
It has a legacyoon legacy. This is a pretty, this is a pretty long Wikipedia page. Yeah. Well, legacy says, despite the negative feedback again, ah you know, uncreative writing, but you know, I'll let that one slide.
00:05:46
Speaker
Jawbreaker found success through home video release and subsequent television airings, semicolon. It has developed a ah cult following. ah Once again, not site cited.
00:05:56
Speaker
ah Vice magazine called the film a teen classic when it published a ah retrospective of 2016 titled Perverting the Youth of America, colon, The Oral History of the Teen Classic Jawbreaker.
00:06:09
Speaker
There's a citation on that. Doesn't call it a ah cult classic. I mean, I guess I'll have to read that whole Vice piece. Yeah, you would if you were a real writer. But there's nothing I'm not seeing.
00:06:22
Speaker
I'm seeing that it was later, ah like, it was it was called a teen classic by by Vice, which, you know, I don't stand with, you know, what Vice does. Is this a podcast where you audit reference lists on Wikipedia pages?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yes, and it also, on the I will say, on the the the Vice article, they refer to it as a cult class. It's also a podcast where we audit friendships.
00:06:53
Speaker
I feel like if Ben asks you to do this as a friend, really it's not your position to really try to split hairs about what is and isn't a cult film. Just do it for your friend, Ben. it for your friend. Do it for the old Benji.
00:07:08
Speaker
The other thing as an accountant or is this like a Scientology audit where, you know, there's going be a whole, okay. Oh, wow. good All right. Well, Grayson, that is the type of comment that ah the a guy that's pretty high in Phaetons would make. Yeah. Well, my Phaetons are overflowing. my i Like, listen, we're talking on webcams and I just see Phaetons crawling all over you. Yeah. They're they're they're crawling on your face.
00:07:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I see one on his neck. Yeah. He's died neckic. yeah dad naked that a joke? Is that a joke? Dianetics.
00:07:47
Speaker
I think it's a joke. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for recognizing it. I'm trying to butter up the real leader of this podcast. wow Thank you for recognizing. grayson Grayson told me that he was going to try to work any angle that he could find when he said he would be on this podcast. and i I didn't know what he was saying, but Why is he and Jess a soft target? You know real mark. So I'm going to try and work that angle.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, if you just say one or two nice things about me, you've got me in the palm of your hand. It does not take much.
Game Reviews and Experiences
00:08:24
Speaker
Well, Ben, let ask you a question. Uh-huh. What have you been playing?
00:08:30
Speaker
Why, Jess... You see how naturally we flowed into that, Grayson? ah Yeah. Maybe you could take guys some note.
00:08:41
Speaker
Maybe you could take a note on that for your own fucking podcast if you have one.
00:08:47
Speaker
Jess, I've been playing Geometry Wars 3. Adventures Old. Wow. wow Is that a Sierra game? It's a Sierra game.
00:09:01
Speaker
It is from like a second where they revived the Sierra brand. Like for some reason, Acclaim is being revived by some guy that was like, Acclaim, it's back.
00:09:19
Speaker
And that guy got much... Acclaim for that. Wow. Oh, wow. Hey, that's pretty good too. So yeah, now I'm playing both sides. Yeah, pretty good. Anyway, Geometry Wars 3 is a good game.
00:09:36
Speaker
There you have it. Like, I don't know what to tell you. that have shapes and stuff? It's got all the shapes. Angles, braids. It's got shapes, it's got angles. It only takes 135 megabytes on my hard disk. That's what he like's like 10 megabytes per shape. That's not, you know, that's that's small.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's pretty good. I mean, listen. Geometry Wars, the exciting twin stick shooter that made everybody into Xbox Live Arcade.
00:10:08
Speaker
You know, Geometry Wars 3, they had, look, there's a bunch of levels in it. And you can like your power up. Kind of fun, right? I have a good time playing it.
00:10:20
Speaker
It kind of works on my Steam Deck. Sometimes it crashes, but most the time it works. That sounds deck verified to me. It's deck enough.
00:10:33
Speaker
Deck enough for government work. Yeah, especially these days. Am I right, folks? Those bozos on Capitol Hill? Those bozos. i away like The other day, it was why I thought I was watching Cartoon Network, but it turned out it was CNN.
00:10:52
Speaker
I thought I was watching Comedy Central. It was C-SPAN. I thought I was watching an old clip of the 435 Stooges, it turns out it was just the congressional livestream.
00:11:07
Speaker
Okay. I
00:11:18
Speaker
Charlie Chaplin. Do that a Chaplin. Yeah, you he did that gold rush I thought I thought I was watching that and it turns out that I was watching a ah Facebook live from my senator Can I do one as a guest?
00:11:44
Speaker
Can I do one you? Listen, this is an open door. Okay. So this is going to be a bad joke because I don't remember which of two TV stations had this motto, but was I watching either USA or TNT? Because this looks like characters were welcome on my screen.
00:12:02
Speaker
TNT, you did it. Okay, TNT, perfect. Close enough.
00:12:08
Speaker
Do we have any more? Anything else? I think case closed. Case closed. We did it, team. All right.
00:12:18
Speaker
Grayson, what have you been playing? Don't make up anything. Okay, well, up to you whether you'll believe this. We live by strict code here. That's not a real game. GMO 2. There were one and two, as far as I'm concerned.
00:12:33
Speaker
I've been playing one of the Smash Tests of 2024, the Dungeons of Hinterberg, which is a kind of a Zelda-like, where you go into dungeons in a place called Hinterberg.
00:12:45
Speaker
Then you fight monsters, and you get treasure, and you level up your guy. It's pretty good. i watched you ah like I watched you play that a little bit the other day, and it also had some like persona.
00:12:59
Speaker
and Yeah, there's a kind of, you know, you can't just make a Zelda like anymore. It has to have a kind of elaborate. You need to be able to make one.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, uses make one you play as a character who is a tourist in the in Hinderberg and Hinderberg draws tourists who like to slay monsters. And so it is also a game about the ethical responsibilities of visiting a place as a tourist.
00:13:26
Speaker
And so you make friends and do all that sort of stuff. So it's trying to make me feel bad about something I do for fun? Yeah. Like ah any good video game, it it makes you do something fun and then it says, oh, but what if what what you thought was fun was bad?
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah. No, it's actually quite good. I liked it quite a bit. Yeah, no, it looked really cool. It looked like a lot of fun. it was ah It's cel-shaded, right?
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah, it has ah it has a kind of comic book-y sort of halftone look to it. I think it looks quite handsome. I believe it was sponsored at least in part by the German government.
00:14:05
Speaker
Whoa. Congratulations. Good job. The German government.
00:14:15
Speaker
You know, I thought I was watching...
00:14:31
Speaker
parliament question mark yeah you were watching Deutsch TV
00:14:41
Speaker
alright Jess what you been playing You know, since our last record, ah i haven't played much. I've been doing a lot of writhing and agony, some light crying, some things like that.
00:14:56
Speaker
Why is that? I've been going through, ben and I've kept this secret from everyone. I've been going through some dental issues, and today i went to a lovely dentist who who has fixed all my issues, has has made me whole again. ah Now, i will say astute listeners may notice that my tooth acoustics or my tooth acoustics are slightly off tonight.
00:15:22
Speaker
am working with a new front tooth. So if things sound off, I'm just breaking it in. I like learning to work around it a little bit, you know, just sort of making it work. all I think give me six to eight weeks and I'm to sound just like the old Jess.
00:15:39
Speaker
That's what i hope. Otherwise, I will have to replace you. that why Grayson is here? Yeah. Oh, man. Shit. Shit! But no, what little bit I have been playing.
00:16:00
Speaker
Fight Forever Wrestling, which is a wrestling game for a wrestling federation that I do not follow nor know anything about. But it got really cheap on the Steam sale, so i decided I would buy it. And it promises some degree, uh, uh, like classic in 64 era style wrestling games.
00:16:20
Speaker
And I don't know how, uh, familiar you are with the wrestling game subgenre. Grayson, I know you're familiar with all genres of games. Uh, I think like a lot of kids who had a Nintendo 64, you just wound up with a bunch of those wrestling games yeah i had three this is four dollars yes absolutely anybody' negative i don't know that anybody has has improved upon that formula i'm not i don't play a lot of wrestling games these days but it really seems like everyone's just like just do it like it like you got it you did it That is the widely agreed upon consensus that like the N64 era, No Mercy game, NWO versus WCW, Revenge, those sorts of things.
00:17:00
Speaker
That was the like the high watermark. And that's what this game's going for. It doesn't quite get there because those games have a strange magic to them that makes them feel way better than any game like that should.
00:17:14
Speaker
I mean, hey, at $3 or $4.99 or whatever I paid for it, that's the sweet spot. I don't need to get a lot of entertainment out of that. Be happy with my purchase. All right, well, you heard it here first.
00:17:27
Speaker
He's happy enough, as we all should be. Precisely happy enough. So, you know, we we we talked ah we talked about ah the clones in Congress.
00:17:40
Speaker
ah We talked about what we're playing. So let's ah let's talk about something...
00:17:48
Speaker
for me out that I know that. Wow. Let's talk about what we're here to talk about this week.
Codename Iceman Overview
00:17:56
Speaker
here to talk about Codename Iceman.
00:18:00
Speaker
Codename Iceman. A game both of you have streamed. A game both of us have streamed. And one of us has completed.
00:18:09
Speaker
I completed it. I mean, everything but the last part. I completed it. I rolled credits on name Iceman. yeah Any percent of it. Yes.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, that is a complete. mean, I guess I just played all the game and completed it. I completed the... Oh man, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's really good.
00:18:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I played the Jeep chase at the end and successfully completed it in like three tries and you gave up after many more than that. But ultimately, we both played most of the game on average.
00:18:47
Speaker
Grayson, have you ever actually played Codename Iceman or just sat in the sidecar as Jess and I have played? I have never personally piloted that game. I have just been present while two people who I stream with have played it.
00:19:01
Speaker
Uh, now...
00:19:05
Speaker
So, Jess, could you tell a plot of Codename Iceman? Can you bring your expertise to bear on this? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, as a professor who studies foreign affairs and such, Codename Iceman, this is, of course, the 1990 Sierra adventure game designed by the one and only Jim Walls, Sir Jim Walls.
00:19:28
Speaker
ah The story here... is that it's in the near future. It's set in the near future. What year? What year was it? Does it tell us? I think it's like 2007 or something. yeah right like is it name Something in the game, because we had a good laugh about this, something in the game states it's set in the year in the 22nd century.
00:19:51
Speaker
ah whether that's Whether that's a typo, I don't know, because that seems implausible, even by the standards of that game. that would That would be upsetting. No. But yeah, it's at some point in the indeterminate future. There's a global oil shortage.
00:20:06
Speaker
Tunisia is discovered to somehow suddenly possess oil, which really isn't how oil works or how Tunisia works or how much of that sort of stuff works. But now they can.
00:20:17
Speaker
The Soviet Union, which has not collapsed. And the United States are both trying to much of that away as me. The United which also hadn't collapsed at this point. That's right. This is when both of those superpowers were still going concerns.
00:20:32
Speaker
Anyway, I think some terrorists backed by the Soviet Union, kidnapping ambassador, your naval officer, Johnny Westland, and you're sent to defuse this tense global situation. And how would they insert you into this situation? The only way possible.
00:20:49
Speaker
aboard a submarine the most subtle way to handle a diplomatic crisis uh yeah and and so just just delivered a whole lot of plot which you're just like okay is there like in so real is there yeah like is there a lot of like stuff about like oh do you go to like like uh do you negotiate with the like tunisian ambassador or something like is there some sort of like james bond ask like antics
00:21:20
Speaker
uh, Tom Clancy come to life here. It's just like, yeah. Uh, and, uh, the answer to that question is no, No, Grayson, what is most of the game?
00:21:32
Speaker
It's pretty resounding, though. Most of the game is an elaborate submarine simulator where you you sit down in the seat and you're thrown into kind of a first-person view of the command center of of the submarine. And you just see a lot of levers, a lot of physical buttons. I mean, if you're somebody who hates you know the the modern touchscreen trend,
00:21:58
Speaker
Wait until the 22nd century. Yeah, wait until the 22nd century. They're going to bring... Your knobs are going to be back. Manual submarine controls will be back. ah But... but In addition, you only ever see abstract representations of the things you're doing in that submarine.
00:22:15
Speaker
So you are doing things that like in principle are exciting, like firing missiles and navigating. think at some point you navigate like tornadoes or typhoons or something like. ah Yeah, there's a part where you navigate through typhoons or or something. you see spirals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Icebergs.
00:22:33
Speaker
Icebergs. if The fact that we can't remember. Polar typhoons. the the It really doesn't matter because they appear within the game in a screen within a screen as little tiny icons. And most of it is just kind of manipulating levers and dials.
00:22:47
Speaker
Which the game ah comes with ah like in if you're lucky enough to have the box, which just does just owns the copy of the code name Iceman.
00:23:02
Speaker
Jess, have you ever actually opened up that box? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. good it's got do you everything does it have everything in it it has everything in it i have the manual let's pull that pull that down let's see if the manual has the year okay that's a good point let's see here just a moment all right so uh grayson what are you up to you what do you have to you tonight uh well i was here we go excuse me never mind okay never mind never mind what was it what'd you say had my headphones off did miss something i was talking about about what he was up to yeah ben was talking about you know he didn't even frankly he didn't think you were coming back to the podcast jess oh oh you have a boat floppy jess is holding up a disc that says and it's a it's a five and a quarter it's a big it's a real floppy disc
00:23:52
Speaker
And it says bonus. Is that, so wait, that's someone's save files. Someone's save files. um Which is pretty exciting. Somebody's backed up. Yeah. The name Iceman's save files. I would be genuinely interested to see where and when people saved in that game.
00:24:10
Speaker
je Jess is also, he has in front of him, he held up to the camera, the confidential manual to the USS Blackhawk, which is the a submarine that you pilot in the game.
00:24:24
Speaker
the very first rule in the technical manual on how to pilot this is the boarding protocol. Salute flag, salute officer of the deck, present orders.
00:24:35
Speaker
Let's see here. Do I have the, is that the only manual there yeah is? ah I recall looking through like Gogs, like where I bought it. I thought it had a reference card. Maybe it was within it that, like, that is kind of a key to all of, like, the levers and knobs.
00:24:57
Speaker
Yes, that is in here. Okay. And I'm looking at it right now, and it doesn't tell me the year anywhere that I can tell, but let me tell you, the, like, the key to how to operate the submarine.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah. There are... It's like an illustration of the cockpit. There are 33 points of interest on the diagram. Like literally the dive plane indicators, the throttle speed indicators, the multipurpose view screen, the heading indicator, the bow plane indicator, the latitude indicator, the compass, the hatch indicator, the emergency ballast control, rudder indicator, fire control panel activate, torpedo two plus. I mean, longitude indicator, stern plane indicator. It's water temperature. In case you're curious, would be a good time to go out for a swim.
00:25:44
Speaker
ah This is complex. Water temperature ever, ever factors in. Yeah, you know I was about to say, the thing I think if you've played this game, which of course is notoriously obtuse and and and weird,
00:25:59
Speaker
is You might look at that and be like, oh, okay, maybe this isn't a throwing spy thing, but like, oh, maybe it's like it's a really cool, crunchy simulator. Yeah. It is not that either.
00:26:11
Speaker
no Yeah. It is none of the above. the The simulator segment, first off, so it's entirely in like SEI Sierra. So it's just in the adventure game like stuff it's not like you're playing like I don't know Aces of the Deep or um uh what was the what was like the death what was the the popular network death like like submarine game ah like of the like eight late 80s early 90s I seem to recall there was something it's not that isn't there something like a number yeah or something like that
00:26:52
Speaker
Anyway, but it's not like that at all. You're not playing Red Baron. Like, it is They put this really clunky, overly complicated submarine simulator in an adventure game...
00:27:08
Speaker
uh engine and uh it if if you draw outside of the lines of how it wants you to pilot this submarine even a smidge you die immediately Like you get maybe one warning.
00:27:31
Speaker
Like sometimes like you'll see a like a little like a little chat box where the guy's going, no, increase depth, increase depth. But usually by the time you get that message, it is late.
00:27:47
Speaker
Sierra must have blown through their... de death screen budget on this one. cause there is it Has anybody ever measured the Sierra games by unique numbers of death messages? Because Code the Mice Man has to be up there. There's so many ways for you to screw up and die.
00:28:05
Speaker
I feel like by putting this out in the universe, we could make this happen. Like the question of which game has the most unique death messages. I feel like some of our dear friends could answer this for right Yeah, that seems because every Sierra game has been like played to death and then like taken apart.
00:28:24
Speaker
And, you know, people have really, really taken apart, like every, every single Sierra game in every single way that you can possible.
00:28:35
Speaker
so If there's someone that said, oh, yeah, all I have to do is put it into a CI companion and push like these three buttons. And then it tells me how many variables there are under death.
00:28:49
Speaker
And it's like there's 500 and then it maxes out like if it had one more type of death, it would crash the entire game. Which, which, which.
00:29:00
Speaker
It's a possibility as well. I mean, what ah what are the police quest games? You can get too many points. Doesn't it like roll over? ah Like you can get more than 256.
00:29:10
Speaker
i I don't know. Police Quest 3 is super buggy. Yeah. Yeah. Let's listen. I know that we're very excited to talk about the entire oeuvre of Jim Walls. That is true. Yes.
00:29:25
Speaker
yeah And maybe we'll bring you back for those. Maybe you're our Jim Walls correspondent. Yes. i mean, you have a case to be. I think I've got to be in a top percentile of human beings who just in terms of time spent thinking about Jim Walls.
00:29:42
Speaker
it's ah It's you, his wife, and any other family members. His wife. His wife.
00:29:55
Speaker
Kim Walls. Well, that would be a great that would be a great couple of guests. i what a apologize guess I'll come with Jim Walls' wife. Yeah, and then and you'll play a newlywed game quizzes about him. And you'll get the answers.
00:30:11
Speaker
So, okay. but But the way that this fits in, so it's like Jim Walls made four games at Sierra.
00:30:21
Speaker
Three of those games were police quests. One of them was Codename Iceman. Jim Walls was a retired police officer.
00:30:32
Speaker
So he was mostly kind of, you know, just going with what you know. Yeah. yeah yeah Police quest. ah But, ah but something all like, ah but he decided to take a ah different tack.
00:30:51
Speaker
with Codename Iceman. i But the thing is, is that Codename Iceman kind of fits within the Jim Wall's design ethos.
00:31:04
Speaker
but Once you start playing it, you yeah, you start to real, like, it what whatever, however surprising it might seem, kind of just looking at the boxes, once you start playing Codename Iceman, you're like, oh no, Jim made this.
00:31:15
Speaker
If anything, it sheds more light on what makes a Jim Walls game a Jim Walls game, aside from just the police questiness of it. I think it brings into sharper focus the things about police quests that just aren't the theme of you're doing police work, right? I mean, it really highlights all the other elements of just the proceduralism to a fault of the, you know, i would argue somewhat ah conservative worldview. ah it seems I think think you could pretty squarely ah ah pretty squarely refer to Police Quest 1 to 3 and then codenamed Iceman as you could confidently state they have a conservative worldview.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yes. uh and uh yeah the conservatives are getting better at game design yeah lefties are getting worried but
00:32:14
Speaker
but the thing like like beyond like its general kind of worldview and point of view and and by the way i hate it when people put politics in my games to be clear i hate i hate it that's why i i hate i hate all politics i only I only play games for fun and not to think.
00:32:33
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway. I like to play apolitical games like Q-Bert, Police Quests 1-3, and Geometry Wars 3. yeah i And Adam's Family Pinball.
00:32:47
Speaker
And Adam's Family Pinball.
00:32:50
Speaker
i I only play non-political games, uh, code name, Iceman, Pac-Man to the new adventure and, uh, Mappy.
00:33:06
Speaker
Oh, Mappy. That's just upsetting. I can't even laugh. It's just upsetting to think about Mappy. Yeah, wow because they made Mappy 2 got very political. but It was weird. I didn't play it anymore. yeah I was like, no, Namco, you ruined it with your politics. yeah Assassinating world leaders? Not my Mappy.
00:33:29
Speaker
Anyway. But outside of like the general point of view, Jim Wall's games tend to have this, I could only call it like this extreme literalism like this, yes like that everything is exactly as it is.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yes. Does that, you top look at door and the response is it's a door like, Yeah, that level of literalism sometimes. Like, ah you know, this is, and that's what makes this game kind of rise to a level of some kind of art.
00:34:14
Speaker
Because, like, i don't know, like, uh...
00:34:22
Speaker
I mean, like one of the first puzzles or well one of the first first puzzles when you're boarding the submarine is in codenamed Iceman, famously so, is you have to go for for maximum points. You have to go through the proper boarding protocol in order.
00:34:36
Speaker
And again, and there's not, it's not, really presented as like this big patriotic thing. It's not like presented. It's it's certainly not ironic. Right. And so it's, it's just, it's just, Jim wants you to read this book included with the box that includes proper boarding protocols.
00:34:54
Speaker
And he wants you to demonstrate those in the video game. That's it. There's no meaning attached to any of that. It's also, you can get through the game without doing that. So it's not even copyright like, or like copy protection.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yes. No. and And what I was trying to get to is, it's like, Jim, Jim has defeated Renee McGreet. It's a scene. Uh, like Jim would look at that painting of a pipe and say, it's a pipe.
00:35:23
Speaker
It's a pipe. And he's not wrong. No, Yeah. No, mean, I think, Grace, and you hit on it perfectly. What makes, I think, Jim Wall's games oddly rise to the level of art is the complete lack of irony, which is so rare in adventure games. Even adventure games that are saying out to be comedies, I think can't help but have some level of ironic detachment.
00:35:45
Speaker
And everything, yeah, it is operating on exactly one level. And it's such a beautiful, consistent level. It's a real just this flat plateau of game design. Just a man. Yes. And you're just, you're just cruising along with Jim.
00:36:01
Speaker
The, the there's ambition and the ambition is to, it's just like, like, so you're, you're piloting the submarine and it's not thinking about what would be fun about being ah submarine pilot.
00:36:22
Speaker
It's about how would you exactly be a submarine pilot? Which button would you press? And if where is it located? Yeah. And if you deviate from the correct way to be a submarine pilot, you die immediately.
00:36:40
Speaker
I would say even even in in an early scene where he... he ah sleeps with us ah someone later revealed to be a spy. ah oh yeah, this is a spoiler cast. Sorry to anyone that... yeah It was obviously this to decide if they wanted to play Codemass Man. In its own way, it's very procedural where it's like you go to a bar, you sit down with the woman, you buy her a drink, you offer to dance, you go home with her, you have sex, you and oh... My, my, my.
00:37:10
Speaker
My, my, my. a really And then it's like... I don't understand your criticism here. the minister Like, what's wrong with that? people People have said this ah about like ah the construction of of sex scenes and stuff like that, but there is no more workman-like way, like sex scene construction I have ever seen in anything.
00:37:38
Speaker
It feels like it was written by someone who had only written like health class textbooks. Yes, it's very, it's very, it's very, um, the gym teacher is teaching health class vibes. Uh, well, Jim Wiles has major gym teacher energy anyway, like put a whistle around that guy's neck and it would look like he was born with it.
00:37:57
Speaker
ah yeah But, I mean, let's talk about this first part of the game, though, because to me, i think this is the true cruelty of Code Name Iceman. This is the most fun part.
00:38:08
Speaker
By far. It starts out, like, kind of charming, like right? You're in Tahiti. it The scenes look nice. Everything's very tropical. You have some lovely ladies. It hits you...
00:38:20
Speaker
We'll have to. All right, fine. On the lovely ladies, you could type look woman at like a couple of the women and you get like leisure suit Larry level like close ups.
00:38:34
Speaker
There's like big pixel art did this part of the game, right? Like sexy close ups of these women that that are like, but this isn't even like me being a prude or anything they have absolutely no like purpose to the point where that you could miss most of them they're just there like you have to like you have to actively like be like i wonder what that sexy lady looks like like i don't know yeah i mean there's a dance scene apparently one that was coded like a level of great complexity right from what i understand this is like actually like a simulated dance scene
00:39:13
Speaker
It's a very strange algorithm. I've heard this. I don't know. Like, I think that might be in Sean Mills book. I believe so. ah which i Which I need to read.
00:39:24
Speaker
ah It has bespoke sprites. there's big There's bigger sprites for the dancing scene. like yeah it has or it has It has its own custom sprite work. And also, Johnny Westlake has remarkably shapely thighs. He's a muscular man. Let me look at this.
00:39:44
Speaker
Man, he does. he And those are some short shorts. Yeah, he's wearing short shorts that that really show off. Different time. Man used to wear he so not be afraid of showing their legs. Juicy thighs.
00:39:55
Speaker
Like she's wearing a mini skirt dress type thing and his shorts are like several inches shorter than her. Yeah. You could see why she was into him. Like it just took that one, one little adventure on the dance floor.
00:40:08
Speaker
Um, there, uh, there's one thing that we haven't touched on, which is in this Tahiti sequence. uh the one of the first things that happens is that uh one of the the people enjoying themselves on the beach uh like uh has to receive cpr which once again i like as grayson said about like the ah ah boarding the submarine procedure you have to type in
00:40:44
Speaker
ah Exactly. And Jess, could you check the manual to see if you could find this? Because I believe it's in the manual. I believe this is a kind of copy protection. And this is like, I think you do have to do this.
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like watch a woman drown. Yeah. It's like six.
00:41:02
Speaker
full like it is very very thorough instructions on how to do cpr which i mean i guess there are worse things to put in a game yeah we're saying so thorough though that like you can't even if you know how to do cpr you're not going to bypass this copy protection because you have to do things in such a specific order and step by step process Okay, let's see here. I've got it. I've got it.
00:41:30
Speaker
All right. ah Listeners, ah please take this as medical advice. And also be sure if you're going to use this in the game, make sure that you paid for it completely. We are that not giving away Sierra's copy protection.
00:41:43
Speaker
So here we go. Lay victim on back. Shake and shout to establish responsiveness. Call for help. Establish the airway. Look, listen, and fill. Give two good breaths. Repeat step five. Look, listen, and fill.
00:41:54
Speaker
Check pulse for five to 10 seconds. Then begin compressions. um So yeah, there you go. ah That is as simple as it gets. And you have to type each of those commands in. Can I tell you the craziest thing about this, though? I'm looking at this manual now.
00:42:10
Speaker
Before it gets around to explaining to you how to do CPR, it has a section distinguishing between clinical death and biological death.
00:42:21
Speaker
And it goes the like clinical death is when your heartbeat and breathing is stopped. This is known as a near or apparent death. and it may be averted or reversed. Sudden death is sudden.
00:42:33
Speaker
unexpected clinical death. Biological death is permanent brain death due to lack of oxygen on the other hand. So if you're curious whether someone is clinically dead or biologically dead, the codename Iceman, USS Black Hawk Technical Manual is where you go get those answers. Now, philosophically, spiritually, emotionally, all those sorts of deaths are not covered.
00:42:54
Speaker
if you're If you're wondering whether someone is suddenly dead, I think it will probably be self-evident. What about Le Petit Mourne? ah that's what gets good That gets covered in the Tahiti segment. Yeah. yeah Yeah.
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah. you know, about ah like, let's say about a third of the way into the game. uh there there is another great sequence after you do your first like kind of tutorial type section of piloting with submarine and you're like all right you know this piloting stuff everyone said this is pretty hard but it's not too bad it's hard but it's it's not horrible it's horrible but like you can get over it and then it's not like all-time bad horrible at that stage but then uh then you have to
00:43:44
Speaker
you have a little free time. And, uh, so you, you go down into, the mess hall and, uh, you play, uh, dice with an old salt.
00:43:58
Speaker
It has like a Irish or Scottish sort of brogue. Like he, it's, uh, he has a sort of affectation that comes and goes. Yeah. He sounds like a sailor. I think at the very least, whether that's Irish or Scottish, I think we were supposed to, yeah, it's supposed to read sailor.
00:44:14
Speaker
And ah you have to play this RNG random, like, betting. Like, it's like this dice game with...
00:44:27
Speaker
Oh, the rules are in the manual. Yes. Just look it up in the manual. Well, here you go. Let's see. I wonder if that's before or after. Oh my God. Here's yeah. It's handwritten on the back page of the manual.
00:44:40
Speaker
Oh, good. Johnny. Here's instructions on how to play the dice game. Good luck. And then the rest of it's like boss, the player with the highest hand on first roll horse player who wins the round winner player that wins two.
00:44:54
Speaker
I'm sorry. So wait, The horse is the player who wins a round, but then a winner is someone who wins two rounds. Come up, boss player calling opponents hands, and then the hands and descending value, five of kind, four of a kind, et cetera, et cetera.
00:45:10
Speaker
But I mean, I'm holding this up. don't know how well you can see it, but it is like a full page of handwritten notes on how to play this dumb dice game. And it's worth noting, so there's a couple real bullshit things about this dice game beyond the fact that you have to play it at all.
00:45:27
Speaker
One of which is that it directly prevents you from saves coming. It gives you what? I think two saves?
00:45:38
Speaker
Two warnings, I think. Yeah, and then after that, it it says, like, all right, and not even the magic of ScumVM, it detects even if you save in ScumVM, like it yeah like it it wags its finger at you.
00:45:52
Speaker
No control F5-ing this one. And so there is, ah like, you can't save ScumVM, and you have to play it, like, to absolute completion, I believe, twice?
00:46:08
Speaker
yes And, ah which is long and you have to, everything that you're playing for, you have no and need immediate need for.
00:46:22
Speaker
So the things that you are playing for only become relevant considerably farther in the game. So it's not even that if you're playing the game for the first time and you're putting in a good faith effort, you're not playing with a hint book or walkthrough whatever.
00:46:39
Speaker
Like you have to just trust that you need these things or you could just skip it. And the game lets you. Yeah.
00:46:51
Speaker
Why? Why? why Like, why would you? The game has some of, ah maybe not the worst kind of soft locks and so or missable sort of like inventory items, but it has some pretty egregious, like, just just real punishing game design decisions in it where it's like, oh, you missed this this, you decided not to play this random dice game for something you didn't know you needed? Well, sorry, you li yeah your it's four hours later and you're in big trouble.
00:47:23
Speaker
There's, like... a way to do it if you don't get what you're supposed to get i believe so i think it's in the scuba diving section yeah it's just up apparently extremely difficult if you don't have it um so there's this dice game and then Yeah, I don't know. What else is in there? What else is in the news in the game of Codename Iceman?
00:47:50
Speaker
So you did ice. At some point, your commanding officer falls down and hurts his bottom, and he goes to the infirmary. um And then you you kind of become the kind of, like, oh even though I don't know why you would be in, like, the chain of command, you kind of become captain of the submarine.
00:48:07
Speaker
There's a really beautiful little bit of prose there when the captain... like falls on his butt butt he falls on his bottom uh there's this beautiful bit of prose there where it's just like the captain like i i don't have this written down but it's something like it's like the captain is incapacitated now you are in control of the uss black hawk all of the decisions that you make from this point on, ah are, will be the decisions that determine the fate of the world.
00:48:45
Speaker
The world is in your hands. It's something like that. It's very, like, it's very purple prose for a game that doesn't, doesn't really indulge that much. Yeah. When Jim Walls writes purple prose, it's just like, it just means he wrote like two sentences in a row.
00:49:00
Speaker
and it's, He used a couple of adjectives. Yeah, but it stands out. In a game like this, when you look at something and it's like, that's a door. You know, when you get a little bit of ah of a kind of writerly flourish like that, you're like, ooh, ooh, yeah. It's big door. It's like, yeah oh, tell me more. Yeah. Tell me more about the big door.
00:49:25
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, everybody to pause on that. Sorry, my ah my internet fell over. Well, that was a hilarious joke that I just made. ah now
00:49:38
Speaker
ah ah
00:49:42
Speaker
I got you. Yeah. yeah Yeah. There's a like beautiful moment there. There's also one of the most like, unfortunately, like, because you just sit down at the submarine panel, like, or this cockpit seat for like 90% of the game.
00:50:03
Speaker
ah There's not a lot of interesting art or scenes, but there's this one really beautiful yeah tableau where you and the captain, right before he he falls on his bottom and, ah you know, bleeds out, there's this beautiful scene rendered in 16 glorious colors.
00:50:26
Speaker
I counted 17, but whatever. oh ah of you and the captain like looking at this like beautiful purple sunset. ah It's really like there's music, like very dramatic music playing. Yeah, the music in this game is is genuinely unironically the music in this game is excellent.
00:50:53
Speaker
It's like moody and obviously if you do the full, especially if you're playing There's a fair amount. I've listened to a lot of it. ah But if you do, especially if you're playing it now and you're doing like the full like MT-32 emulation, like it's it's very elaborate, multi-layer tracks. they're very beautiful.
00:51:11
Speaker
ah and It's out of nowhere. The game, frankly, does not deserve the music.
00:51:17
Speaker
the you know The game looks good in moments. Like that scene, yeah the submarine scene is as nice looking as any Sierra scene ever made.
00:51:28
Speaker
Some of the Tahiti stuff looks good. think it's weird. Like when you get into the submarine, a lot of the interior, i mean, due to the limitation of the palette, kind is in like Tinker Toy type colors, like which I'd love to be on a submarine where everything is like lime green yeah and and turquoise and bright red and... The submarine is also bafflingly spacious.
00:51:51
Speaker
Bafflingly. Yeah. You have like a vaulted ceiling in your quarters and a couch, but I mean, we've laughed a lot about the couch, but yeah, you absolutely have like a large sectional sofa in your submarine cabin. California King, like which yeah but give have your own like bathroom, like en suite bathroom in your, in your very spacious quarters. Yeah.
00:52:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's probably like a waterbed. i don't know that, but I would assume all beds on ships are waterbeds at some level. Well, yeah. You have a coffee table. You have a coffee table. And and of course, ah ah photo of the submarine. Yeah, of course.
00:52:31
Speaker
So you don't forget where you are. anyway There's also just decorative plants is the other thing. Like... yeah to I think my my my theory is that they were they were creating these scenes and kind of populating them with all the actual like games the things you interact with in the game.
00:52:47
Speaker
And then someone was like, there's we made this too big and we're not going to redraw it. So just put a plant in that corner and a poster of the submarine over there. like Let's just fill it in. what i What I like also about the the game is that, like, you know, the submarine stuff is such a pain in the ass, but also it just makes sure to really be like, frustrating to you in other ways, too.
00:53:11
Speaker
Like, so there's the dice game that we mentioned. Then also there's this, like, completely baffling, overly complicated copy protection sequence that,
00:53:23
Speaker
Like every time that like the time that we played it back in 2020. And then when you played it again, Jess last year, like it's this overly elaborate. And so we already said that there's this copy protection where you have to type in CPR controls, but this is like, this part's miserable.
00:53:43
Speaker
Like you have to lord decode a code like and refer to the manual and then refer to like this code cipher yeah in the thing and then you have to like do it backwards and like it's with like preface depending on who you're communicating with they're like it's like lsat logic puzzles like it's yeah it's it's really really tedious i mean it doesn't serve as a fun puzzle or as particularly good copy protection it's just
00:54:16
Speaker
It's just laborious for no good reason. Like, and the per like the and because it is copy protection, a lot of walkthroughs kind of don't explain it because they don't want to get in trouble.
00:54:30
Speaker
And I think it's to some degree randomized, right? Yeah, but they don't even explain like the mechanics of how you're supposed to see. Yeah, like it's just very, it's it's just very needlessly complicated as opposed to just saying like on the manual on page five, what's the the like paragraph three?
00:54:47
Speaker
It's a ways into the game too. So like once you think like, oh, I've proven my legitimacy, my bona fides as an owner of this game and you're like a person. Throw away my manual. Yeah, I could throw it away.
00:54:58
Speaker
Don't even need to Xerox it at the library. And then it just hits you with it out of nowhere. may Like what? Even if in theory you were kind of like the one person on Earth who was like, oh, i get I'm getting it with this game. This game's clicking with me.
00:55:12
Speaker
It still kind of throws this kind of just just this horrible, horrible copy protection at you. i I want to know because like every game has someone like there's always someone like any game that you play.
00:55:25
Speaker
There's therere there there are people out there. There are people out there that like ah like Police Quest 4. Like there are people out there that that like any fucking thing. You know, some people have fucking trash taste. I don't know what to tell you, but I don't.
00:55:40
Speaker
i don't is there anyone yeah co the icema podcast Is there anyone out there that like played Codename Iceman and I want to hear ah you know, its reputation is pretty negative. didn't think it was that bad. I'm saying liked.
00:56:01
Speaker
four stars or above. Wow. Four or five stars. Now I will note that I think computer gaming world did give it a positive. You can find, you can definitely find contemporary reviewers, but ah like a lot of reviews of video games at that time,
00:56:17
Speaker
I think they were just happy to see something on screen. You know, they were like, It's seeing colors. and Yeah. just Yeah. they They liked hearing sounds and shapes. i didn' do it Yeah. Did it help that that people who made these games put ads in those magazines? Maybe that helped too. Who knows? yeah I mean, this is something i talk about a lot. Like,
00:56:37
Speaker
when I've been at Disney with my daughter and like, we get off of a really bad ride, like figments journey into imagination. And she's like, dad, that ride sucked. And I said, honey, that's somebody's favorite ride.
00:56:49
Speaker
And I'm going to say there is somebody out there who unironically loves code name. People are so like precious and picky about like Sierra games and their nostalgia for them.
00:57:02
Speaker
And people are very like, it's like, Oh, you know, not us. No. i' all I'll kill your fucking sacred cow. um But I'm an internet badass. I'm coming for you.
00:57:16
Speaker
Oh, no. I'm a tough guy. I'm a tough guy. Watch out. um guy watch out um'm um I'm swinging. I'm coming out swinging. Is it Ben? Is this the scariest you've ever been on this podcast? so Oh, yeah.
00:57:32
Speaker
Oh, good. okay be theory But it's like there, you know, there's got to be someone out there that's just like and and again, I want to be clear. It can't be. It's you can't be someone that's saying it's not as bad as people say.
00:57:50
Speaker
You can't be Jim Walls. You can't be Jim Walls. And you can't be his wife or a loved ones. You want an affirmative good game from somebody. Yeah. GG.
00:58:02
Speaker
Well, hold on. Let's go to, you know, you know where we could find this. the reference The reference list on the Wikipedia page. ah yeahp No, that, that, i that, that's a useless place.
00:58:15
Speaker
um Could you add to the police? I'm sorry, to the codename Aspen Wikipedia entry. That's a cult classic. I mean, it is. I think i and it is. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned.
00:58:26
Speaker
Alright, you know, there' is there's one place where you will always find a five-star review like... like absolute garbage yeah video games. And that's the GOG reviews.
00:58:41
Speaker
And that would be good old games. Uh, you will always find, you will always find someone, uh, that, that gives like, just like you'll, you'll see this adventure game.
00:58:57
Speaker
And, and like, be like this game, like the puzzles suck and it's not fun to play and blah, blah, blah. And then like, you'll see like 500 five-star reviews that are like played it when I was six.
00:59:09
Speaker
i And here we go. See multiple four and five-star reviews. So here they are. Like, you know, this, this person says what people fail to realize is that Iceman was made with the same mindset as some of the King's Quest series.
00:59:27
Speaker
That doesn't explain anything. That doesn't explain goddamn thing. I mean, like King's Quest, I think the goal was to sell copies of the game. Okay. Like putting it in boxes and selling those boxes in stores. and Hold on.
00:59:43
Speaker
This person who gave it five stars, and this is a long review. And if you're a listener, we're sorry. This person says, like many others, I never finished it either.
00:59:56
Speaker
Five stars.
00:59:59
Speaker
Now, Ben, this is a question for you. So you you're looking for somebody who played it, obviously, start to finish. How much would... Is there an amount of the game that someone could have played and liked and you'd be like, and you'll you'll accept that? Or are you looking only for someone who start to finish beat the game?
01:00:18
Speaker
Start to finish beat the game. and Loved it. Okay. And, and I, there's one here, there's a review here that says ah masterpiece. This feels like this, this person's, uh, uh, funning me.
01:00:31
Speaker
Oh yeah. That's, that's no way. this This person's, they're they're they're fun in me. there're there No one would call this a masterpiece. Like, yeah, if you want to call this a good game, fine. Lots of people, as you said, have terrible opinions, but no one could consider this a masterpiece.
01:00:46
Speaker
Five stars. Happy accident. Got it accidentally when I was 10 years old. i had asked for Monkey Island and got this instead. Oh, no. Are you getting fun again? is Are you getting fun again here?
01:00:57
Speaker
oh no. That is the biggest gap possible. But it is. That's like, that's you know, that did happen. and You know, you got the wrong game. Do you think that kid deserved codename ass man? And that's why they ended up with santa the might medical this person says that they beat it.
01:01:17
Speaker
Age 10. No walkthrough liar liar. It was tough, but managed to finish it without any help cheats or walkthrough. Still remember it as one of the best adventure games I have played.
01:01:30
Speaker
I'd like to sit that person down in a room right now and see if they can finish. code I'd like to set their parents down for letting them play a game where an adult has sex with another adult and they were only 10 years old.
01:01:43
Speaker
Shameful. It's true. It's just not okay. Yeah, so anyway, okay. Well, I found, I asked and answered. I have found people that would rate, who claim that they have played it beginning to end.
01:01:58
Speaker
Imagine, imagine getting that. Imagine being a 10-year-old and your mom or dad comes home.
01:02:06
Speaker
Happy birthday. Monkey Island? No, something even better. Ha ha ha. It's two games in one. It's an adventure game and a submarine simulator. Yeah. And a CPR learning experience.
01:02:20
Speaker
Yeah. It's entertainment. Uh, now do we have anything else to say about Kid Named Iceman? Because I wanted to talk about this hot other game. I have one more thing that we should talk about.
01:02:33
Speaker
Let's talk about Tunisia. Uh, the last part of the game, because i mean, on the one hand, You know, i said some of the graphics looked okay in the game. Like, you know, Tahiti looks fine, some of the other bits. But man, the wheels fall off once you get to Tunisia. It is just like a whole bunch of plain yellow buildings and nondescript rooms. I mean, it really does feel like, it's almost like if you assume this game was made screen by screen in order, that they were simply running out time and resources by the time you get Tunisia.
01:03:10
Speaker
are ugly screens very very ugly what's really heartbreaking about the Tunisia segment is that like You get through all of this, like the submarine stuff just gets harder and harder and harder and harder and harder.
01:03:29
Speaker
And I remember just thinking like, well, the Tahiti stuff was fun. So we're going be back to the normal adventure game stuff. And it's going to be ah stuff again really like that will be fun again. And then like the Tunisia stuff is just dull and ugly.
01:03:46
Speaker
it's so It's still really fiddly. Like you could still die in a bunch of ways. Like, yeah, it's constantly throwing like, like there's no, there's no walking around. There's no exploration. It's just doing very, very prescribed.
01:03:57
Speaker
Like they were like, like Jess was saying, they needed to wrap this thing up. They were like, get this, get this out the door. like Yeah, and it's such a shame, too, because they did all the work to get the culture right.
01:04:08
Speaker
yeah And then just did such a disservice with the graphics. And I mean, oh, my gosh. I mean, Sierra, I mean, in this era, they go to the Middle East slash North Africa ah three times, right? They go ah to this, like, present-day version, Tunisia, and codename Iceman.
01:04:28
Speaker
they go to the middle ages era, middle East in a conquest of Camelot. And then like the fantasy version of it. And yeah, in Shapir in, in quest for glory and boy,
01:04:42
Speaker
ah those other two i think for a game made in 1989 or 1990 uh do a decent job trying they're trying they're trying they they're they're they're trying very hard and uh you know like i you know i i would say i haven't played camelot you just played camelot uh but like you know shapir they they they you could tell like laurie and cory cole like obviously always have nothing but affection for the the areas that they they base their quest for glory yeah this one's not great i mean it could be much worse but it's not great it' that i mean but by that point have like arabic in it that's just like squiggly lines we we investigated this one day in our our
01:05:33
Speaker
discord which is named after code name ice man uh i think it was hard we it was hard to determine whether it was a real language and if so what language but there is it it it it doesn't look good we'll say that you don't look at it and go oh that's some faithfully recreated ah arabic script or or script of any language of the region yeah okay it's a bad sign if people can't say definitively yes that is arabic script yeah or a language even yes um yeah so i don't know i mean maybe jim walls if you're listening let us know uh he does speak 18 languages that yeah it comes up a lot in his interviews uh but yeah i don't know i mean this section could be much better i mean
01:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, this again, i mean, maybe a hallmark of the design here. But yeah, Code of Named Ass, man, it's not a great game, right? I mean, I think I've reached a point of ironically appreciating it, but I could not ever say it's a good game.
01:06:35
Speaker
Would play it again? ah not anytime soon. It certainly wouldn't be a game I would play for enjoyment. like i would I mean, i can like it's kind of fun to stream because it's so bad and everyone can have a big laugh about how bad it is.
01:06:53
Speaker
And I can like do silly little, like, I'm pulling out my hair kind of moments and things like that. And we can all have a good time together. But no, I like sit down to play this because I'm in the mood to play a video game. Absolutely not. would you say it's so bad it's good no you wouldn't even like it does have on the the flop house podcast scale where they have uh uh like good bad movie bad bad movie or a movie you kind of like you would say this is bad bad is that correct yeah i mean i would say
01:07:26
Speaker
like the Tahiti section for me is maybe that's good. So bad. It's good. yeah that's good be Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I don't mind that. Like that's, it's char it's as charming as some of the lesser or leisure suit Larry's, you know, or something like that. It's fine. It's whatever.
01:07:42
Speaker
um But after that, no, I don't think it, it would be, if it were easy and breezy, it could get away with being bad. But I think that very difficult and bad is a tough combo to pull off.
01:07:57
Speaker
Like one would be playing Dark Souls if it wasn't fun, right? If it was just very difficult. This the Dark Souls of Sierra games. so grayson what what do you say do you say it's a good bad bad bad or uh that you kind of liked i mean so because here's the thing i think bad bad because we played it on our stream bed years ago and then yeah i just had negative memories of that uh just bad time in my life and then when just played it uh which we were playing in anticipation of of a hot game release um
01:08:31
Speaker
i think I think what you forget about if you've been away for a little while is just how much of the game is staring at these just awful submarine simulation screens. if you could If you could, like the end of the game lets you skip the van chase, if you could kind of skip your way through all the submarine shit, maybe you could get there on... But on but then the Tunisia part is just such nothing... We didn't even talk about the lathe.
01:08:57
Speaker
Oh, we didn't even talk. And then there iss a ah there's there's. Yeah, no. We didn't even talk about that. I would say this is one of the most Jim Walls-y parts of the game where yeah you have to replace like a roller that a nuclear missile is on, like a torpedo.
01:09:15
Speaker
And you have to like manually go through the submarine tool shop. And like adjust some gaskets. Like it's just like every little step. Like it's like you pick up a cylindrical rod.
01:09:27
Speaker
You have to put washer on a nut. Oh my God. The one half inch washer. Not the one inch washer. Don't don't grab that one. And. Oh. oh it is it is. Yeah.
01:09:39
Speaker
Yeah. It is. ah It's bad, bad. It's bad, bad. Bad, bad. But. but You know, Grayson, you kind of found the the game kind of inspiring. That's, yes. i i don't know what qualifies, like,
01:09:54
Speaker
I am, as far as I know, the only person on Earth to have ah created any fan, any original fan game related to Codename Iceman, much less one, as I made, that purports to be ah the first, perhaps only, fan-made prequel to Codename Iceman called Kid Name Iceboy.
Kid Named Iceboy: The Fan-Made Prequel
01:10:16
Speaker
A name and an idea that I believe was birthed in a side chat we had years ago, Ben, where we were talking about, I guess, wouldn't it be funny if there was a game starring a 10 year old John Lessland?
01:10:28
Speaker
ah And we said, yes, that would be funny. And then like four years later, I was like, that's still funny. I will make that game. It's one of those things that just kind of burrowed into your brain. Well, at the time, I i thought it was a very funny idea, and I wrote like a little game outline.
01:10:43
Speaker
This was also, this was COVID era, so everyone yeah I was like... we're all doing Yeah, you were you were writing down anything that you were like, oh, this could occupy some time. yeah There's a lot of it.
01:10:55
Speaker
Yeah. ah So ah but eventually I dug that up and I said, this is still a funny idea and I'd still like to make it. And now it's taking time that I could use to be out in the real world, but I'm going to do it anyway.
01:11:07
Speaker
um and And what is what's what's the plot of Kid Name Ice Boy? It's a prequel. It is a prequel starring a young 10 year old ah boy named JW on his way to submarine camp, not submarine school. You go to submarine school as an adult.
01:11:22
Speaker
it This happens in Codename Iceman. ah John Wesleyan goes to submarine school. JW goes to submarine camp. on ah it' ah it's It's a camp for patriotic young Americans to learn about life on a Navy submarine.
01:11:38
Speaker
ah And ah mishaps and mischief go ah go down there. And JW stumbles on ah plot, perhaps, against America itself.
01:11:49
Speaker
One of my favorite things was, uh, like it had, it had a very good reception. ah like, uh, it was, it escaped containment.
01:12:00
Speaker
I would say like, like it was because I was like, Oh, you know, like, Yeah, it was played on Jess's stream and there's like the the the kind of, yeah like the people in like our, like the follow our streams or in our Discord or listen to this pod, like this this kind of group.
01:12:18
Speaker
But then like getting to see people who had absolutely no context for all of our various ah discussions about Codename Iceman for the last five years since we played it.
01:12:32
Speaker
I think you're a friend of the pod, ah Richard Cobbett, right? yeah Yep. Yep. He he he he ah very, very, very, very kindly said some nice things about it.
01:12:43
Speaker
And he he called it, I think, the most elaborate shitpost he's ever seen, which was... Yeah. Which is, I mean, obviously... We are, or certainly I was obsessed with Codename Iceman, and I made it for all of us to enjoy in our little in our little streaming so circle.
01:13:02
Speaker
So the idea that anybody else who is also kind of aware of these games would enjoy it is is very flattering. And so it was it was good to see a little bit of... ah Go to see if you other people enjoy it.
01:13:13
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to grease you up too much here, but, uh, you know, it is legitimately in contention for my game of the year last year. Like, I think I had more just straight out fun playing Kid Named Ice Boy, than I did just about anything else I picked up the whole year.
01:13:31
Speaker
And I would say that even if a a friend hadn't been the one to make it, it was just even more of a joy to know that it was you behind it. Also, literally, I can't anyone else on the planet that could possibly be behind it.
01:13:42
Speaker
So I like that part. I mean, that was... that was ah we we We are so obsessed with this with this weird game, which again, maybe this is a, again, we all just gave it a solid bad bad across the board.
01:13:54
Speaker
but None of us would recommend the game anyone. If someone said, I like bad games, it would not be on my list. I would say, do not play it. I would say, yeah, but there were still, I guess, just, you know, just thoughts I had to exercise about this game. Just get things out of my head and into the real world in some way. Why is that? Why has, I mean, I guess we kind of answered it the previous hour and 15 minutes, but really, why is it so sticky?
01:14:23
Speaker
Why, codename Iceman? I think... So I guess I won't like beat around the bush that there is a lot of stuff that is fun to make fun of the game about.
01:14:34
Speaker
Like we talk about this lathe sequence of Conan Iceman, which is so it's just an insane thing to put into a video game. It's like the box factory yeah The Simpsons. So there's a lot of fun of just making jokes about things that I think are very, very funny about the game.
01:14:50
Speaker
But there is... and not to get too highfalutin about this, but there is, i think a real fondness I have for Jim Walls as an auteur where he is just, this singular guy no one No one would make a game... No one could make a Like, would ever will ever be in his position again.
01:15:09
Speaker
No one. Like, you game the games industry is too well-developed. You wouldn't bring an ex... You know... college eyes um yeah Call Yeah, the Call of Duty guys just work with the CIA and the military now, right? They're not going to they're not going to call up an ex-cop friend that somebody has, right? I mean, Ken Williams, like...
01:15:27
Speaker
Jim Walls's wife was Ken Williams hairdresser. And that's how they met. It's like yeah the, the woman who does my hair, her husband's an ex cop. Why don't I give him a job making triple a adventure games?
01:15:43
Speaker
yeah Like I, and, and they were triple a for the time. They were big. Yeah. yeah These were big releases. Like a big handsome box that Jess has. And like,
01:15:54
Speaker
I think, you know, to go along with what Grayson was saying, like Grayson and i ah and and some of our friends, we watch every week a bad movie. We're we're we're bad movie freaks.
01:16:07
Speaker
And i like there's there are certain qualities that make. ah a movie that is like not very good a lot more compelling and interesting and stick to your brain and stick to your ribs uh more than like you'll watch like sometimes you'll just watch something and be like oh that's just kind of sucks and i the i mean i think the main thing that it is is like that you know as as grayson said is like you get a full sense in in his four games at sierra you get a real sense
01:17:01
Speaker
of Jim Walls as a person, of his worldview, of ah how he views policing, of how... him as a game designer. Like, he has these are very earnest attempts at yeah what he thinks are compelling about video games.
01:17:15
Speaker
There is a sincere human touch... like in Codename Iceman and in his Police Quest games, like, you feel like an absolute, like, sincerity. You feel like genuine humanity in these games.
01:17:32
Speaker
and Do I like them? No, I don't enjoy them. i Don't have fun play them. Do not play them. No, there are lots of problematic elements in every single one of them. But, like,
01:17:43
Speaker
If there there's something, there's such a a novelty to play a game ah that has like such a budget, that has such a level of gloss.
01:17:56
Speaker
like and that is so straightforwardly bad it's like sure you could play like a kojima game and you could be like ahaha you know like kojima like he has his things but you'll only play four sierra jim wall's games i mean i think he's the kojima of sierra that's why people have been saying that for years um ah Like, I love this one in the sense that it's so ambitious in conceptualization.
01:18:28
Speaker
And I feel like so ultimately unambitious in execution. It's just like... Like, it is shooting for the stars, and it's like it just gets bored with itself halfway through. It is it is it is funny that, like...
01:18:42
Speaker
you just also don't see games go to market with this, and and that are this big of a, of a failure, right? Where it's like, it, there's too many, like, there's too many quality control slash the, you'll just get laid off before the game is released, right? Like,
01:18:58
Speaker
This was put out in the world in a box. You have a box for this, Jess. like yeah It is awesome has an embossed logo on it. yeah and That's not even like flat. This is funky. It has, in big letters, doesn't it say, like, by Jim Walls?
01:19:13
Speaker
This is also why we keep bringing it Ah, he's got little picture of him on it. It has big letters. Jim Walls. He's ah a selling point of this game. Yeah, i mean, like, you buy this game because you like Jim Walls and you've enjoyed his other games so much.
01:19:29
Speaker
You want to see what he can do with a ding-dang separate? I mean, honestly, does even Roberta Williams get that treatment? I'm like, like I can't think of it. like in In the first Laura Bowe would be the the like Laura Bowe
01:19:45
Speaker
uh, uh, the colonel's bequest, does it say uh, Let's see here. let me Let me pull that off. I'm looking at the box for King's Quest IV, which would have been the closest analog to Codename Iceman as far as packaging.
01:20:01
Speaker
Roberta Williams on the corner. Now, this is great audio right now. yeah On the corner of this box, there's just like a small purple ribbon that in like in script says by Roberta Williams. But I mean, it is a tiny little thought down there in the corner.
01:20:16
Speaker
Jim Walls is like a selling point of Codename Iceman. if If you look up ah the the Colonel's bequest, ah she does get, she does like, i both of these games, like, ah and maybe this was, you know, this was something that the marketing department was thinking through. Both of these games have, like, kind of mass paperback style ah cover art because, like, the codename Iceman is kind of a John Grisham looking thing.
01:20:44
Speaker
yeah cover and the colonel's bequest looks like you know kind of a paperback mystery ah novel and it has Roberta Williams in like in big text at the the bottom in a similar way like as if she is you know the author of this interesting book but yeah i mean I mean I think yeah I think Jim Wall is really like you know and not Not to dwell on a game like Police Quest 4, which is very ugly, but like, again, Kidney Mice Boy is obviously like kind of a parody. It's having a lot of fun with it. But I couldn't do that with something as kind of ugly and simple as Police Quest 4. Whereas...
01:21:19
Speaker
whereas Iceman has like an author to interrogate a little bit. Like I can, you know, like I can actually have a lot of fun kind of putting myself in the shoes of this imaginary prequel to Codename Iceman where I'm like, oh, there's an actual like world in here to play around with.
01:21:38
Speaker
Right. And like Jim Walls was a real guy who was making these games. with like Ben saying, like an actual worldview and perspective and a kind of game design sensibility that again, not make for very compelling video games, but it's fascinating. all the same is this whole little world that he fleshed out in, in four games, which is like a, a, a, a weird, a weird and very, I think kind of historically singular achievement.
01:22:06
Speaker
i but if i'm but it's a yeah which sounds weird for game we have again do not recommend you play it but I would kind of call it an achievement
01:22:17
Speaker
All right. Well, you know, ah anything else? Or before before I close the book? It's kind of like when Time Magazine names its man of the year, but it's not a good thing. like Yeah, it's like you? That's bullshit. We're not putting this on the wall. Yeah, this is not getting changed.
01:22:43
Speaker
yeah mean Yeah, we're saying how important and like singularly ah you know evocative this game is, while at the same time saying it's not the kind of game you want to play with your hands and eyes and ears and things. but No, absolutely Just trust us when we say this is... Play Kidney Ice Boy instead.
01:23:02
Speaker
That's right.
Kidney Mouse Boy and Codename Ass Man
01:23:03
Speaker
I mean, absolutely. Go play Kidney Mouse Boy. it is available ah on Steam. If you want the deluxe version, that is $79.99. That is true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:23:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it is. No, no. it's It's on Itch, correct? It is on Itch.io. I charge it is ah wouldn't want to risk the wrath of I reuse a lot of assets ah from the original game.
01:23:25
Speaker
um and from mixed up fairy tales do you think someone owns codename ass man now no I think it's in public domain and the public domain refused it so no one owns it it's a you know a stateless Sean Hartwig you know it's a state loss and shan harwi ah you can go I think it's GraysonD.itch.io or you know what I think anybody who's trying to look something up they heard about on a podcast you should just Google Kidney Mice Boy ah well there you have it thank you so much once again Grayson our guest that's my special guest for regular guest yes ah this
Closing Remarks and Listener Engagement
01:24:07
Speaker
week a lot of fun to talk to you maybe we'll have you back when we talk more about Jim Walls yeah I'll be back with Jim Walls' wife Jim Jimena
01:24:22
Speaker
uh but uh do you have any plugs any plugs uh how do you plug your stream ben how do you how you plug your stream uh ps underscore garrick we make a 75 minute podcast every week all right i'm gonna say uh pretend this week pretend i plugged it how ben normally would but a little bit better great oh i love that uh well uh you can catch him there on tuesday nights at 8 p.m on ps underscore garrick on twitch when we do adventure tuesday jess when do you stream i stream on wednesday nights for retro adventure wednesday at decaf jedi cool and uh you know please rate review helps people find this you can send us an email at quest quest podcast
01:25:11
Speaker
at gmail.com. And you can join us next week on Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast, when we discuss Codename Iceman again. What?
01:25:23
Speaker
Again. um one more time.
01:26:02
Speaker
I'm sorry.