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What IS an Adventure Game?
140 Plays1 month ago
We've been talking about adventure games episode after episode, but then it occurred to us that we never bothered to establish what an adventure game is. Let's correct that oversight!
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
Give us a review, they help people find this show! Unless you hated it, in which case, don't.
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Transcript
Podcast Length and Listener Habits
00:00:22
Speaker
You know, part of the question I think of that the the theme is a little bit of a different length every week. This is Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast is you know, i could ah ostensibly ah just take the MP3 file and chop it down.
00:00:42
Speaker
And so that way it is the same length every week. But i i like I like having the full however long this sound file is, however long this song is, and letting it run ah and and killing it you know when when it feels right.
00:01:03
Speaker
No, I think... And also, you know... Like, I don't like all these people out there with their podcast apps. That's right. Who are going to hit like skip forward 30 seconds. That's right. Sometimes I want them to like skip forward right into one of our wacky bits.
00:01:19
Speaker
And then be like, oh no, I messed up. Now they're doing the skip backwards. But it's a 10 second skip, whereas the skip forward is 30 seconds. They can't figure out how to land perfectly. Like, I don't want it be easy.
00:01:30
Speaker
Like, I know exactly how many skips it takes to get through this theme song of My Brother, My Brother and Me. And I take advantage of that every single time. I don't want people doing that to us. Wow. It's been so long since i've I've been a regular listener of my brother, my brother and me. i Better than ever.
00:01:47
Speaker
I almost got rid of, ah like, I almost was like...
Bean Dad Controversy and Personal Stories
00:01:53
Speaker
uh yeah i haven't listened to it since they replaced the theme song because uh bean dad was the original theme song composer how's bean dad doing these days think he's still out there think he's still playing mind games with beans uh i think that was one of the first like meltdowns of 2020 think that was a 2020 thing I feel like it was. i feel like we were already like sheltered in place.
00:02:22
Speaker
but it was It was a shelter that we were all at home. We were all ah online. we were all on Twitter. and we saw we saw this man pose this preposterously long thread about about we listen we don't need to go through that was five years ago this isn't quest quest the bean dad podcast yeah if you want to listen to that you could ah you could listen to his podcast which he has with ken jennings um yeah now
00:02:56
Speaker
ah This is Adventure Game Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast. For podcasts and adventures. That's right. Oh, good Lord.
00:03:08
Speaker
and aren't you glad to be here, Ben? I'm always glad. I'm i'm i'm glad every day i open up my eyes and I stare at the cracks in the ceiling. Not for too much longer, in the cracks of the ceiling of my ah apartment bedroom.
00:03:25
Speaker
This is true. there are ah i'm looking at them now there are multiple cracks in the ceiling of my bedroom and once the like apartment handyman was here and he was fixing some like something in my bathroom and i said hey uh while you're here can you take a look at these cracks in the ceiling over my bedroom and uh he takes a look and i go is that is that bad or those just you know the normal type of cracks yeah the good kind of cracks in an edifice and i' like is is this a problem and he just shrugged at me but i've been here i've made it and i'm i'm here for of a week and a couple uh more days uh by the time this comes out
00:04:18
Speaker
ah It will be my, i move out of here ah provided everything is is fine. i move out of here ah the day this should come out.
Podcast Finances and Humor
00:04:29
Speaker
No, I mean, this is something I've been thinking about a lot, too, because you know, the cracks in the ceiling of my apartment. Yeah, absolutely. why Not so much that. But, you know, just to give listeners a little behind the scenes peek here, you know, Ben handles a lot of the a lot of the housekeeping and and the financials of this podcast.
00:04:50
Speaker
And I am I'm doing all sorts of crimes. and I find it a little concerning that we've been doing this podcast for 20 odd episodes at this point. And Ben is moving into a nice new place. And I haven't seen a dime out of this yet.
00:05:06
Speaker
That's right. I'm, I'm, and it's, I, I built it all with quest quest money too. that's what I told you. Yeah, it's weird that you're wearing like a sequin tuxedo when we record now. Like, I just feel like, I don't know. Each of these sequins is a is a pearl.
00:05:23
Speaker
It's a Swartsky crystal. Yeah, it's ah it's it's alternative Swartsky crystals. I don't know if that's how that's pronounced. I don't either. I just said it for the first time ever and regretted it.
00:05:36
Speaker
When you said that, I was like, oh, that's how that's said. not? Why not? but that's never a good sign when your first uh reaction to someone's pronunciation of a word is interesting that doesn't that doesn't fill me with confidence well you know what what does fill me with with confidence what thank you it's uh as sure as the sun rises every day it's knowing what you've been playing
00:06:08
Speaker
Wow. So what have I been playing? That's a great question. a What a non-sweaty transition. No,
Exploring Barcades and Arcade Games
00:06:14
Speaker
that was smooth. That was smooth. That was good. Smooth and clear.
00:06:19
Speaker
Smooth and easy. Just like we like to keep it here at Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast. Ben, I went this weekend to a local barcade.
00:06:31
Speaker
Ooh. Yeah, by the name of Dave and Buster's. It was this great local place. that we that we have here. First of all, fantastic food, let me tell you. But I was there for the games and what I played And it's got me really thinking. And I want to pose a question to you in just a moment. All right.
00:06:52
Speaker
I played Giant Galaga. i You know what? I knew. i knew when you were saying this. I was like, yeah I bet he played Giant Galaga. And I also played Giant Galaga. looks pretty cool. Yeah. I also played Giant Pac-Man.
00:07:08
Speaker
It's the same it's the same screen right? and i played giant space invaders which was a different is it all the same screen where there's three different unit that's a it's galaga pac-man i think we're combined and then uh yes space invaders is on its own and was it was it a very straightforward like white like just uh like your classic or like classic space invaders like white or green yeah yeah like not nothing This isn't like an upgraded, souped up kind of space. It's on a ah big screen. Can you describe what that looks like for anyone that has a giant dot matrixy kind of screen?
00:07:50
Speaker
Like, it's just like... I mean, it doesn't. The lights in it are ah enormous. Like, it's not just that. It's not like seeing like a big TV screen. No, it's like light bulbs on a wall.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah. that light It's almost like Christmas bulb size lights that are lighting up to form your game. I don't love the giant games. I don't know. I've never played them. I've always given them the look of, oh, that looks pretty cool. And then never played them. Like whenever I've been in like ah like a Dave and Buster's type scenario or like a movie theater that has those.
00:08:27
Speaker
I mean, they're fine. They're better than what other kind of horrible games live in a Dave and Buster's nowadays. I mean, they have like a Fruit Ninja. Do they have a Fruit Ninja over course they have a Fruit Ninja. mean, Fruit Ninja's a great game.
00:08:40
Speaker
But anyway, so you said you had a ah question. Yeah. If you were going to make a giant video game, what would you choose?
00:08:51
Speaker
And let's limit this to two arcades. Arcade games. Yeah. let's Let's play honest. Like if you but if you had to choose arcade game to be giant, what would it be? ah you These things, we say giant, they're like a story tall. They're like 10 feet tall.
00:09:06
Speaker
You know? You know what would be fun, I think, is a giant joust. Because then that you have that two players. Yeah. Joust would be a lot of fun to to have on the giant screen.
00:09:23
Speaker
And I'm also trying to think, because so this heads to the game has to be kind of like lower resolution. So you're not going to have like you know NASCAR, like the the or daytona Daytona, the Sega Daytona ninety ninety
00:09:41
Speaker
Uh, I also, like, personally, I love Robotron, so... Okay. Robotron would be, i think, a good one. Uh, love, uh, Berserk.
00:09:52
Speaker
Ooh. Berserk would be, uh, a fun one. I would also, I think I would appreciate one of those
00:10:06
Speaker
Mappy. Mappy's fun. Mappy's not like a Pac-Man knockoff. I thought that was a maze game. That was a maze of It is a maze game. Yeah. I also don't think of it as a knockoff because that's also Namco, right? That's right. That's right. So it's like, I, you know, I don't, I don't think of it because it's, it's from the family.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know if we're jumping ahead, like, too far into the generation, but, like, I can imagine a giant Street Fighter 2 could be fun. See, that's a little... Because that is a little higher res. Too high resolution. don't think you pull it off. You'd have to, like, squint. Yeah.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that making Defender giant would make it better, but I like Defender. You know...
00:10:54
Speaker
Eugene Jarvis being an arcade designer. Defender, he did Smash TV. He also did the aforementioned Robotron.
00:11:05
Speaker
He's... I've done some really, really wonderful games. You can look them up. Defender is the one that doesn't do much for me because I think it's too hard. Defender, by the way, is that's the one where ah like you're a little spaceship and it's horizontal and you can go both directions.
00:11:26
Speaker
Like it's it's it's kind of in there like UFOs picking up people, right? Like at the bottom. yeah And you have like a little map that shows like where the UFOs are.
00:11:39
Speaker
Um, I don't know Defender, maybe it's like, I just always thought it was like, I've never had a good time playing Defender. Maybe it's, I just think it's too hard.
00:11:49
Speaker
I think there's already Giant Missile Command and that's honestly one that works pretty well. Missile Command would be good. I've got it, man. I've got it. Centipede. Giant Centipede. Centipede would also be good.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah. Imagine how that would look. Now we're getting into Atari. Giant, like, yeah, just like moving. young Oh man, Centipede could be good. Yeah, Centipede would be good. I think, yeah like like all the Atari classics, because these are like the ones that are in production, those are Namco games.
00:12:18
Speaker
and As is space Space Invaders is a Namco, right? I think so. think, I'm not sure. ah But Centipede would be a good one. ah Like of the Atari catalog, of the Atari classics, you know, it would also be pretty, well, well, here's the thing. I said Asteroids, but that's Vector.
00:12:39
Speaker
That's vector graphics. And so that would, I don't know if that would work as well with this oo that's good type of like the big kind of dot matrix screen.
00:12:49
Speaker
Like I don't think, the vector graphic because I was going to say the Atari ah Star Wars game, like the trench run, the vector trench run game. Like that game is really cool and it would be fun.
00:13:06
Speaker
I think vector graphics are gorgeous. did you They hold up so beautifully. Yeah. Like I love, I was playing a Tempest. I was playing Tempest on a cabinet at an arcade recently. And I was like, man, this game is beautiful.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah. I think Joust was a good pick. Joust was really good. I think that I did not think of Joust. I've always thinking about you, host. You are. mean, well, you are like a big ostrich guy. Like, yeah, you've always been going am half ostrich.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah, lot we don't talk about that a lot. Yeah. But it is the simple fact of this podcast that it is hosted by a half ostrich man. An ostrich tar.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah. It's not the half you think. No, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Jess, is there any other game that you would embiggen? No, I think i mean I would make a lot of games smaller.
00:14:03
Speaker
they'll be like How about Dragon's Lair? But now it's just like two inches by one inch. It's just like so small you can't see anything. That'd be my other direction.
00:14:15
Speaker
I'd go, Ben. What have you been playing? So I've been playing. I'm going to take a ah turn here. I've been playing on Puzmo. Have you heard of Puzmo?
00:14:28
Speaker
No. So Puzmo is a website that does your your daily i does your your daily newspaper puzzles.
00:14:39
Speaker
So they like they' their big thing that i all I'll do is they have a crossword, but then... Now it's done by the folks, and this is in here. they They did, if you're familiar with it, I wasn't.
00:14:55
Speaker
Spell tower and really bad chess.
Puzmo and Puzzle Games
00:15:03
Speaker
Neither of which I'm good at. I'm especially bad at really bad chess. Really bad chess is a chess, like, can you beat a game of chess against an AI where you have, like, they've, it's not randomized. they It's just every day there's a different setup, but you have- a completely different setup of like the one I'm looking at for today.
00:15:28
Speaker
i the first row is, uh, seven, uh, knights and one Bishop. Oh man. I sounded that that's classic chess, but, uh, you know, daughter beat me at giant chess recently. Speaking of games, Jesse, you know, is it, is it just a, do you just like a giant games?
00:15:53
Speaker
I like feeling small, you know, as, as like, you say that, but I just play giant, I just play giant space invaders. But no, mean, when I'm playing something giant, I feel comparatively small. Uh, it's yeah. So like if I'm standing beside a chess piece, it's like three feet tall. Right.
00:16:11
Speaker
You know, I feel like I'm a, a wee tiny man on a full size chess board. Uh, so, but please continue. Uh, but Puzmo, uh,
00:16:23
Speaker
You know, the ones that I all play every day is I i like their crossword. They have one called Flip Art, which bafflingly is this like rotating like tile game that I enjoy, which is strange as a, you know, a noted mosaic hater. It's not a mosaic.
00:16:47
Speaker
a Everything, you don't slide things around. They only pivot from a central point. so So that makes it a lot easier. And there's one type shift, which is kind of a word scramble, but each of, like, each, ah like, the first letter, the second letter, the third letter, the fourth letter, the fifth letter.
00:17:10
Speaker
only slide up and down, if that makes sense. So it's not that it's, you have like 26 letters, you have the four that slide up and down in the first letter and the four that slide up and down the second letter.
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah. I enjoy their crossword.
00:17:37
Speaker
And so like, you know, they'll, they'll like one of the answers a couple days ago was a Brett summer. So, you know, they're with it.
00:17:48
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yeah. I remember Brat Summer. Yeah. Remember? Anyway, so like they do that kind of thing. And but it's an enjoyable crossword.
00:18:02
Speaker
And they also they have a very fun like poker themed puzzle called the pile of poker. I very much enjoy So check it out.
00:18:12
Speaker
Puzmo. Puzmo. A free version and a paid version. And I have a paid version. So I get all the Puzmos every day every single Puzmo.
00:18:25
Speaker
And as a Quest Quest listener, just enter the code ah Quest Quest 2025 podcast discount code underscore 20% off.
00:18:37
Speaker
Now, I'm not sure if that's a percent sign or if you spell out 20% or even spell out the number, but try all of those and one of them will give the discount you're looking for. All right. Well, you know, Jess, I have another, I have a, another segment today.
What Defines Adventure Games?
00:18:52
Speaker
Oh, I have an email. I like how this song is kind celebration of life type music, you know, initially jazzier than that.
00:19:02
Speaker
Now they play music like this at my funeral.
00:19:23
Speaker
So this is an email that comes to us. It reads in the latest posted episode. And this, we received this email on February 18th.
00:19:34
Speaker
a couple of weeks ago. Y'all claimed that you wouldn't classify Papers, Please as an adventure game.
00:19:50
Speaker
Is Goblins, and I'll note, Goblins was spelt correctly. We have all three I's. Is Goblins an adventure game?
00:20:06
Speaker
That's a sentence. are the later Telltale Games titles adventure games. Elucidate us. Kevin, a.k.a. Wilco Webb, a.k.a. the guy that did the show art.
00:20:20
Speaker
And that this is a ah request quest. We're going to talk about that. this this we're up This whole podcast. Someone sent us an email, and then we talk about it. That's what this whole podcast is.
00:20:32
Speaker
That's right. We're called the Email Knots.
00:20:36
Speaker
It's not a great name. We're workshopping it. Welcome to the email knots. ah Yeah. We take an email and we talk about it. That's right.
00:20:46
Speaker
Just two guys talking about an email on a podcast. Where else are you going to get that? i i get... i i I get emails from like, here's, here's an email that like my personal, like to my personal email, uh, where the, the, the sender is, is saggy chin.
00:21:08
Speaker
uh, another one here is never drink alcohol question mark. Uh, you know, I, I, I get all sorts of wonderful emails.
00:21:19
Speaker
So saggy chin offering a solution to saggy chin. Yeah, it says a ah saggy chin. And then the subject is how to make your double chin in quotes vanish in quotes and then parentheses DIY trick.
00:21:35
Speaker
i in And then the little ah Gmail preview is double chin does not all caps mean you're fat, which. All right. Thank you. There you go.
00:21:45
Speaker
That's why it's been on like a 300 day mewing streak, ah you know, to try to really tighten that look up. You know, that's what the kids are doing nowadays. Yeah. All right. Well, ah but let's let's get to ah this email ah here from Kevin, a.k.a. Wilco Webb.
00:22:04
Speaker
what is yeah ding dang adventure game yeah that's the that's the question before us right and honestly i'm kind of surprised we didn't do this sooner i feel like we started off this podcast way back in episode one please don't go back and listen to episode one that's the one that has been most listened to I know it should be the one that is not listened to at all. think it's a perfectly fine, but yes. it yeah It's not our best work. I mean, odds are this will be our best work because it's our most recent one. Yeah.
00:22:34
Speaker
Newer is always better. That's right. But no, I mean, we talked about in the first episode how we play adventure games and establish sort of who we are as adventure game players.
00:22:45
Speaker
But this question has come up a few times. here Most recently, as Kevin mentioned, when we talked about Papers, Please, you and I both sort of pondered for a second and said we were pretty comfortable but saying it wasn't.
00:22:57
Speaker
an adventure game uh but you know certainly we've had some other i would argue edge cases that both of us at a gut level felt like yeah that one uh that one is an adventure game and to to keep this podcast interesting i'm just gonna randomly scream out game titles jess and uh force him to classify them or got trail organ trail organ uh not a uh not adventure game okay very good correct
00:23:30
Speaker
But why? Why do I know that? How do I know that? why do yeah And I think that's what we want to get down to today. I know I'm correct. And don't at me. ah And don't at Ben. ah Yeah. but Do email us. and Yeah, send us an email and review us. And then we'll cover it on email notes.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yeah, but don't at us. But no, figure out what exactly the core traits of this genre are. I think it's something worth working through. Because I know that like... I mean, gosh, if you click on adventure as a genre on Steam or GOG or any platform like that, the sort of stuff that's going to pop up that, you some of which going to fits into, I think, like, now our working definition of adventure game and then games that are just, like, wildly off, like Far Cry, and my mind, is not an adventure game. the far cry series but all right so i'm gonna i'm gonna read off here so now this is gog under adventure games uh so let's see how far we get to before we get to something that would be that that we would classify as an adventure game number one kingdom come deliverance
00:24:49
Speaker
no not adventure game aim artificial intelligence machine ah i don't know this game ah but it looks like it's a flight simulator so no uh tomb raider one through three no not so far skyrim no that sounds like an rpg decidedly morrowind uh that sounds a lot like skyrim oblivion Well, that sounds a lot like Morrowind.
00:25:18
Speaker
ah Silent Hill 4, The Room. I'm going to say not an adventure game. Control. and We're getting warmer, but still not quite there.
00:25:32
Speaker
Tomb Raider Game of the Year Edition. No, it did no matter how many awards you heap onto it, I'm not going to say this is, uh, this is an adventure game. So I, I, I'm, I'm going to save, save us all the time.
00:25:47
Speaker
We get, uh, so, uh, each row has three games. And so one, two three, four, five six seven rose Until we get beyond a steel sky, which i would say is probably what we consider an adventure game. And then you don't have something else.
00:26:14
Speaker
again for a little while until you hit Blade Runner. ah Wow. Yeah. i mean, I'm looking right now at Steam and looking at their adventure game page. And I mean, the story there is is very similar. I mean, like the kinds of games that are popping up in their adventure section are things like Spider-Man 2, you know, again, Tomb Raider games, Far Cry 5, Far Cry 6.
00:26:38
Speaker
ah farcraft six ah it's uh now yeah a bunch of games that i wouldn't personally consider adventure see what else is on here now on on steam they also have point and click adventures which you would think you would think would be more uh uh in that but i'm looking at this and it's also kind of like uh we have
00:27:11
Speaker
do no harm which is a game i do not know so maybe it is maybe this is a pnc uh a slay the princess the pristine cut i've never heard of this game but uh it's a psychological horror game they're probably not going to play this needy streamer overload ah which looks like a visual novel uh we've got alex hill colon whispers at white oak inn this looks like an adventure game of some flavor and uh the root trees are dead ah which i've heard is very good yes uh but i don't know anything about it i just know that it's very good yeah but i'm gonna say like if steam is saying the not best-selling adventure game on their platform right now is grand theft auto 5
00:28:03
Speaker
that would suggest that this adventure game genre is uh is a little tough to pin down right i mean certainly these stores don't quite have it i mean it's maybe a yeah i think a lot of us especially that are coming from more of this graphic adventure point and click tradition e etc we know one of these when we see them but clearly as a as like a hobby and a medium.
00:28:30
Speaker
ah There's not a really firmly established definition of just what the adventure genre seems to be. And we're gonna fix that today. Yeah, and and and and truly and create an all encompassing definition that everyone will agree on.
00:28:47
Speaker
And they'll all pat our backs and say, good job, you did it, you solved the game. congratulations you did it and i guess what i'm looking forward to most is seeing the first time like i'm reading a book and this episode is cited for definitively defining adventure games like that's going be really gratifying i think when this becomes just what people look to so all right so so what what is it jazz go ahead what what what makes something
00:29:18
Speaker
okay yeah yeah what sort of stuff do you have there i like lists i have a list of four or five things i'm going to propose here um somewhere in this neighborhood um of what i think defines adventure games as we talk about them here on quest quest the adventure game podcast and and in the the spirit of intellectual inquiry i'm going to attack it so yes make it the debate me bro yeah this is what this is a true debate me bro yeah scenario yeah no adventure gamer destroyed that's in all caps by fellow adventure gamer while defining adventure games all right so let's hear it jess go okay number one
00:30:00
Speaker
narrative driven gameplay story is central progress is defined at some level by experiencing and advancing a plot i think that's a big one for what i consider being an adventure it's not exclusive to adventure games yeah but i think if you don't have that you're not an adventure game none of these are necessarily exclusive categories it's all of them together i think it's balder's gate three an adventure game It is a narrative story, but it's not going to meet some of these later
Adventure Game Classification Challenges
00:30:30
Speaker
criteria. Okay. All right. Good. I'm excited to hear these other ones, but okay I'm trying to I'm trying to think of ways. So I'm trying to think of an example of what I would classify as an adventure game without that sort of central narrative, like what, what you're saying there.
00:30:50
Speaker
And maybe offhand, and we didn't, we didn't share notes before this, so I couldn't, but I can't think of a good example. And remember, if you think of one at home, you could send us an email at questquestpodcast at gmail.com.
00:31:05
Speaker
All right. I mean, that sounds pretty, pretty good to me. Okay, so that's my first one. and We can kind of come back and then start talking edge cases with all of these, because I think once we get them all together, we'll start to maybe be able to nail this down a little bit. So first, narrative-driven gameplay.
00:31:20
Speaker
Second, and here's where I think we rule out mostly Baldur's Gate and the like. um Second, puzzle solving as the primary mechanic.
00:31:31
Speaker
Puzzle solving as the primary mechanic. All right, then. is ah Is Firewatch an adventure game?
00:31:41
Speaker
oh now this is interesting now there's some firewatch doesn't really like firewatch or gone home or tacoma okay um would you classify those games as adventure games you know i will say yes which may be again how low do you lower the bar of what constitutes a puzzle, I guess, you know? um And maybe at that point, this second one is an iffy one, maybe this one, and now that you say that it's like, yeah, mean, does Firewatch have puzzles? I mean, is, is this is a locked box, go get the key for it and bring it back a puzzle.
00:32:25
Speaker
which I guess that, as I recall, if I watch, that's like the level of a lot of this. More of it is the, quote-unquote, walk-you simulator. You're not solving anything. Yeah, you're solving much. not really solving anything. Yeah, so maybe that one's iffy. mean, obviously, you take a game like Myst, you know, environmental puzzles, it's everywhere. You know, Zork is...
00:32:45
Speaker
Puzzles, you know inventory management type games like you see a lot of LucasArts and Sierra. That's puzzles. But, you know I hadn't really thought about these these walking sims. I mean, even i would say there's mild puzzle solving in most Telltale games and a game like Life is strange, you know, but those aren't exactly walking simulators either. Yeah. If you go to the full walking, I mean, is there a puzzle in Gone Home?
00:33:10
Speaker
No, it's been a very long time since I've played Gone Home. But like, I think there's like one or two things that you do, but it's mostly like, you know, and again, haven't, I haven haven't played this. Should I type in?
00:33:25
Speaker
What happens if you type in gone home walkthrough? Walkthrough. just says walkthrough. I mean, it might. It just walked through the house. Yeah, like it might be like finding all of the stuff.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah, like 100%ing it might have. ah there's like a use the combination on the locker and grab the key for the basement. That's right. Like there' there's stuff that's gated. I will note that the walkthrough for this, which is...
00:33:53
Speaker
the The walkthrough like to is can be contained entirely on my computer screen. You've arrived at the front of the house. Open the little cabinet on the left side of the porch and find the key underneath the dock.
00:34:07
Speaker
Use the key to open the door. i'm pretty sure it tells you where the key is. Puzzle solved. Yeah. ah But anyway, yeah, like so, but like in there, there are other games that exist within the genre of ah walking simulator that we haven't mentioned.
00:34:27
Speaker
um But yeah, would you consider that a, ah would do you consider that ah like Firewatch? Because I think Firewatch is an adventure game.
00:34:39
Speaker
Absolutely. I would agree 100%. And maybe, let me give you my third trait that came up with. And maybe what we're actually dealing with here is some sort of ah possible continuum at some level. So me give you my third idea.
00:34:54
Speaker
So we have narrative-driven gameplay. Puzzle solving is the primary mechanic. My third one is going to be exploration and interaction. That part of the way you progress progress in the game is by exploring environments, examining objects, talking to characters, interacting ah with the world.
00:35:14
Speaker
ah So that sense of discovery, I think, is a big part of it, which that's where the walking simulators tend to do pretty well is the idea of you are discovering a world as you play these things. You know maybe it's more of a matter of, know, there's sort of a continuum between a game where it's largely about walking around and experiencing an environment all the way up to games where it's all about sort of solving puzzles within that environment.
00:35:41
Speaker
But, uh, No, I mean, it's it's a little tough. I'm now doubting everything I came into this believing. Now, so ah in the email, it was asked, does goblins count as an adventure game? And I think that is...
00:35:56
Speaker
an interesting question for now have you played goblins i'll describe what goblins is uh no i'm familiar with goblins but i've never played it myself played goblins i think it's actually pronounced goblins yeah for all three guys uh goblins is a ah series of games published by sierra but ah created by ah Cocktail Vision, ah one of the the companies that ah I believe sarah Sierra owned.
00:36:26
Speaker
um They acquired them in that big buy-up. And i Goblins is a puzzle-forward game where you control in the first game three Goblins, in the second game two, in the third game one uh goblins that have ah like they each have kind of their own set of skills and uh each screen that the goblins are on and i believe just in goblins one it's single screens and then in the later goblins like you'll you'll be in like a set piece that might be two or three screens
00:37:15
Speaker
uh before you move on to the next set um like so you have a set of puzzles to solve whatever the the barrier or whatever mcguffin you need to get on that screen while using these three goblins and i believe that they can have certainly in the later ones uh They can have a inventory and they're very quirky, silly games.
00:37:48
Speaker
And there's like,
00:37:52
Speaker
i wonder, would I, do I classify them as adventure games because they were published by Sierra? And that's why, like, just in, because reflexively, there's the question, well, of course they're adventure games.
00:38:08
Speaker
They're adventure games. But let's, you working through your your ah your rubric here. So ah what was the first, have we gone through all of them, by the way?
00:38:20
Speaker
ah No, we have. Oh, there's more, okay. All right, well, but of these, the three that we've gone through. Yeah, narrative-driven gameplay. Does it, is it about advancing a story? Kind of.
00:38:31
Speaker
like it has a narrative king has turned into a raving drilling lunatic yeah like there there is a narrative but it's not really what like what it is is that you're you're going to be on a screen or a collection of a couple screens where you have like a couple puzzles you have to solve and there is a narrative but it's not like you're really And as as the series go you goes, you engage more with the plot in each game, if I recall correctly.
00:39:04
Speaker
But so, like, there's a plot, but it's just window dressing to get you these puzzles. Like, is Puzzle Agent an adventure game? Oh, you haven't ever played Puzzle Agent.
00:39:21
Speaker
Or like Professor Layton, which puzzling. Yeah, that's like that's a good question. ah knock kapha I guess for me to think, like, I think in my head when I was thinking about this is the idea that you know, in some games, the narrative takes a backseat to the mechanics. Yeah.
00:39:41
Speaker
And in my mind, in an adventure game, the narrative at some level is always in the front seat. ah And I wonder then in that thinking, like I look at goblins and I think, well, there are puzzles and there's a loose narrative, but it feels like that puzzle solving mechanic is really at the forefront with the narrative elements really pushed to the back. The puzzles are driving the car. That's right.
00:40:07
Speaker
Is the witness an adventure game? I don't know The Witness. The Witness is the ah game made by completely normal man, ah Jonathan Blow, the creator of Braid.
00:40:23
Speaker
And it is ah you wander around a mist-like island and solve puzzles that are all within this very specific uh like kind of puzzle style uh-huh it does not look at it creature has a narrative but it doesn't really like it's kind of i wouldn't call it i would say that's more of like a puzzle a puzzle game with this ah with with kind of a wraparound but maybe i'm just kind of being a dick towards uh
00:41:03
Speaker
I mean, that's the other thing. It's like games I like are obviously adventure games yeah and games I don't care for. I have to look at with a little bit more scrutiny. is um Goblins on the continuum. I would say goblins is an adventure game. It is. It's just more on the side of puzzles. I would say mist is an adventure game and it's more on the side of puzzles. Obviously, the mist games get more narrative heavy as they go as well.
00:41:26
Speaker
But like, ah I would say like goblins is a adventure game. Okay. I like this. Okay. So let me hit you with maybe, think I'm to call here, maybe my last ah criteria and we'll see what we think of this one.
00:41:45
Speaker
Okay. Limited action elements. um Not necessarily missing altogether, but things that require fast reflexes, again, are going to be secondary to things like narrative and puzzle solving. They may be in there. Some games have a lot of action elements. You take like a quest for glory where combat is an important part of what's happening, already it's the RPG hybrid. So it's kind of its own little world begin with.
00:42:16
Speaker
But something like Space Quest, which consistently has arcade sequences throughout, those are never the the main focus. They're still rare compared to the rest of it.
00:42:27
Speaker
Is there a single game arcade sequence that you like? ah
00:42:37
Speaker
I mean,
00:42:40
Speaker
I'm clouded by my... sort of love of Space Quest in that I like Astro Chicken. Which is an absolutely batshit opinion to me.
00:42:53
Speaker
i'm just so good at it i can't help but like it i mean you've seen me i'm like a savant uh when it comes to astro chicken one of the things that kills me about astro chicken is that it uses the same sei zero movement like that it's not that you hold up yes which seems super intuitive to hold down when you see the way the game plays yeah right that because it's an arcade game so you assume that the Astro chicken.
00:43:20
Speaker
It's not like as I like, because in SEI zero games, ah you move forward by tapping the direction once, and then you stop moving by hitting the direction a second time.
00:43:34
Speaker
And once you get used to that, like, and that is in controlling your character around the screen. Once you get used to that that, that's fine. It's not like I remember the first time I played an SEI Zero game and I was just like holding the arrow. And that's that's true of AGI as well.
00:43:48
Speaker
um ah And like, I got it. But for whatever reason, my brain you absolutely rejects that for playing Astro Chicken, which uses that same mechanic.
00:44:01
Speaker
Well, especially when like an Astrochip game, you want to keep the birds wings flapping. Yeah. Which seems like holding it down would be what keeps them flappy and letting go of it would cause them to to cease flapping.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's it's odd, but I love it in a weird way. I mean, i again, if we want to think like Quest for Glory, i love the... I love the, you know, combat there in most of those games, especially one and two.
00:44:30
Speaker
i think that like Dagnabbit, like the dagger throwing. Oh, I do i love, do love Dagnabbit. Yeah. i mean, those are good. I think of a game, like but then I think of like,
00:44:42
Speaker
ah like full throttle i hate the i
Debating Game Genres
00:44:45
Speaker
remember watching you like dream that and have motorcycle combat sequence with the combat and the the uh the demolition derby sequence yeah yeah i don't care for those like that's not me yeah but i feel like this is this is a big one like there may be action elements But they're limited.
00:45:03
Speaker
i mean, this is, you know, I think at some level, know, the Zelda series is a game that frequently gets thrown around as an adventure game in some circles.
00:45:14
Speaker
no And it has, you know, narrative. It has puzzle solving. It has exploration and interaction with the world. But ultimately, you know, the story and some of those other things take a backseat to the fact that you're constantly in action. You're in combat. There's real time reflex based stuff.
00:45:38
Speaker
There's, you know, puzzles, explorations and and storytelling. But the The action is there too. I mean, it's it's probably more accurately referred to as an action adventure game, right? That's the genre we kind of have the that sucks in those things that aren't quite RPGs fully, but clearly aren't narrative adventures either.
00:45:58
Speaker
Now, do you think, going back to the email, would you say that the later Telltale game titles are adventure games? Because those do not generally have puzzles.
00:46:12
Speaker
They might have a puzzle in the sense that Gone Home has a puzzle where it's like, pick up the key to unlock a door but it's not you know like you're not gonna play one of those games and really be like you know you're not you don't have it yeah yeah no mean this is a good question yeah i mean i i'm playing life is strange double exposure right now and i mean there are puzzles there and they're pretty simple i mean the fact that i'm breezing through them should tell you the difficulty level we're dealing with what's a
00:46:45
Speaker
I haven't been watching these these streams. what What is one of the the puzzles in Double Exposure? Well, if I can give like a slight spoiler, in Double Exposure, Max gains the ability to slide between two versions of reality.
00:47:03
Speaker
um And that becomes... She's a slider. She's a classic slider. ah this This ends up being a puzzle mechanic. for a lot of the game. So it's like, if you are walking up a path and a tree has followed in front your way and you can't go forward, like sliding over to the other reality. You the game?
00:47:23
Speaker
You just give up. It's like, oh, well, I really want to see where this path went. I don't know what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like there was one bit where she's like a stealth section where she's sneaking a lab around a ah lab. Well, they kept those in that too, huh?
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah. thing yeah So you're doing things like slipping from one reality to another to bring back items you need to complete this segment and to set up distractions in the other reality to...
00:47:50
Speaker
believe the that it sounds like action to me are you sure this isn't an action it's all still very it's still grab an inventory item and put it somewhere ah i mean it is it is very much i mean it's a low bar but even that is more puzzly than some of the later telltale games now guess the question is it's like Yeah, I mean, you're playing, say, Telltale's Batman, a game that both of us have professed a lot of ah like and admiration and affection for. Yeah. um You know, you're there and you get to a crime scene, and you click on some examine things and, you know, it's kind of puzzly. But at the end of the day, most of it's like, well, you just eventually click every hotspot and you're done.
00:48:32
Speaker
But then a lot of those games, I mean, is a QTE, a quick time event, is that ultimately it more of an action mechanic at that point? Which is why a lot of those later Telltale games turn into swipe left, tap you kind of stuff, which I'm not sure. You know, as I've gone through this list, Ben, you have devil's advocated me yeah to the point that don't know what I believe anymore. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:59
Speaker
his is left is right up is down right is wrong now uh yeah you know i don't i don't know like
00:49:11
Speaker
i to me the the the key is the most important thing
00:49:21
Speaker
is is that narrative focus yeah i think that's the and and i think and i think everything else is kind of subservient to that and ah and and then you say like well what about balder's gate three or any of the balder's gates like four or five and ah the uh but ah the the narrative in those, like,
00:49:58
Speaker
i the the the gameplay is, hmm, yeah, i'm i'm I'm working this out. This is, because narrative is number one, absolutely.
00:50:10
Speaker
But I would also still say that ah Goblins is an adventure game. So I think it would be like that you have like a hierarchy.
00:50:21
Speaker
okay of stuff and that like number one is that you're in a world that you explore that has a ah narrative uh or or that you're exploring it so this gives it space for like uh like something like mist okay and for the walking simulators they now fit in that hierarchy right Now, then you say, all right, well, what about a a game like Outer Wilds, which is this ah big...
00:51:00
Speaker
kind of puzzly and this is actually i don't know uh what the right answer uh to this is and i would if anyone uh would disagree there's outer wilds not to be mistaken ah for outer worlds the obsidian outer wilds outer wild is this game where you are exploring this small solar system in like a ah little spaceship and it's in a like recursive time loop that always ends with the uh the sun going supernova and it's over
00:51:42
Speaker
And the game is you exploring this, uh, this small solar system and going to each of the planets and kind of putting together what's going on.
00:51:55
Speaker
And, interesting I mean, that's a strong element or element of narrative and exploration. So, but then where I get bumped from saying, well, this is an adventure game.
00:52:11
Speaker
is i is that a lot of it is about i like your your movement. is It is like flying the spaceship around and gravity and being in like a spacesuit and flying around certain spots.
00:52:33
Speaker
And there are kind of puzzly stuff and like the the entire world is a puzzle itself. Like you, yeah the more you learn about it, the more you you learn about like where to go next and what you should do. And you learn little shortcuts and stuff like that.
00:52:51
Speaker
But I think that there is such an emphasis on, ah how you move in the space that, and that it is ah because you can kill yourself by ah flying the spaceship incorrectly constantly just hilarious ah the the the kind of that action aspect does take me out of that so you could say like something like there's the longest journey dream fall which is the sequel it's not really a sequel it's it's kind of a
00:53:29
Speaker
but like ah another story in that universe uh yeah and that was made i with consoles in mind it's 3d it has stealth sections it has little action segments but primarily it is that you walk around and you talk to people and you solve light puzzles I would call that an adventure game ah because the exploration and the, like the, the gameplay action is
00:54:06
Speaker
generally not about like, isn't i is, is more about like kind of puzzle solving and ah exploration and like discussion.
00:54:21
Speaker
ah And you could say in Outer Wilds, it's about exploration too, but it's like, that's so much about like kind of the movement in a 3D space, which feels more actiony.
00:54:33
Speaker
Yeah. No, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I do think thinking about this as a hierarchy. is is not a bad way to start. And I do think narrative in a lot of ways is at at the center of it. And then maybe, you know, maybe it's less about puzzles and maybe it's more about just the idea of the mechanic Maybe it's what it isn't.
00:54:55
Speaker
Maybe it's the idea that the primary mechanics aren't reflex-based, aren't action-based, aren't arcade-y in their nature. Maybe that's ah aren't strategic, ah you know, sort of a strategy-based thing. You think that that... It's about the part of your brain that's being worked out.
00:55:12
Speaker
Right, right. I think that's a big part of it. Let me get you some ah some examples. yeah You know, you threatened to do this. Yeah, I know, and I have one for you, but you go first. ah okay we'll we'll trade some off professor glighton uh is the narrative element there strong enough to is this a puzzle game or an adventure game so professor lane if you're unfamiliar with those games uh similar to puzzle agent is uh they're these very charming and fun
00:55:44
Speaker
ah I believe they they started coming out for the DS, but now you can play them on your phone. They are these games where ah you ah explore. There's some sort of narrative or mystery.
00:56:02
Speaker
And essentially you go through like this town or a series of little set pieces. Then you click on or tap on something since it's a DS or phone game. and ah instead of getting a in-world puzzle that's directly related to what you're seeing it throws you kind of a game book puzzle where like for example it will give you like the classic like all right you have to get everything across the river ah there's a raft that only has two spots there's a wolf a sheep and a bale of hay or whatever and
00:56:41
Speaker
you can't have the wolf with the sheep and you can't the sheep with the ha move it across or whatever that i'm allergic to wolves i can't be on that boat um and so i think that the the puzzles in an adventure game have to be like that the the puzzles serve the narrative and the puzzles in professor layton do not serve Like I think professor game or professor Layton is a puzzle game with light adventure elements.
00:57:19
Speaker
And, and that the, that the and narrative in it is just a little bit of charming, extremely charming and fun, ah like binding agent to move you from classic puzzle to classic puzzle.
00:57:36
Speaker
I like this idea of the notion that, the mechanics serve the narrative rather than a narrative has been slapped onto some mechanics. You know, I think that that's a that's a good distinction. I feel like adventure games tend to be the former there. You know, the idea that it's like we can come with this awesome premise for ah arcade shooter and then built a story to justify why you're running around doing twin stick stuff. Yeah.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah. So no, I like that a lot. So sorry, professor, like get bent. I've got, I've got, I've got one for you. Okay. So before we started recording the podcast, I said to, to Jess that I'm going to go through, I i classify everything in my, uh, steam library under genre.
00:58:25
Speaker
Like after I buy it, I'm sorry. You've got something in your throat. Uh, so it makes it easier to find it. Jess, I've had this steam library since 2004. Um,
00:58:38
Speaker
I only have one game in my Steam library, and it's Half-Life 2. Half-Life 2. Yeah.
00:58:47
Speaker
Anyway. And weirdly, i have it under Point Click Adventures. so Go ahead. Okay. Under Adventure, I have Escape Simulator. Ah, this is on my list to ask you Which is now but But kind of, I think I kind of gave the game away off of what I said about Professor Layton.
00:59:09
Speaker
escape simulator is a e escape room game would you call that an adventure game i think i already answered this with the professor latent thing i think that's an easy no i mean there there's not really an attempt at narrative right it's a series of disconnected levels you can play in whatever order once they're unlocked and well where the fuck else am i supposed to put it in my my steam genres jess am i supposed to put it under arcade I think you yes and think you put under ah social experience simulators. um Okay, i'll ah yeah I'll do that.
00:59:46
Speaker
All right, very good. It's technically a Jackbox. A lot of people don't realize that it's just a Jackbox. Oh, jackro oh yeah bad Jackbox. Jackbox. Are those are those ah adventure games?
00:59:57
Speaker
uh yes every one of them weirdly uh you don't know jail especially yeah zeeple dome an adventure game zeeple dome's adventure game well i mean i'll i'll i'll stand by that i have a friend that got really into zeeple dome is this friend okay wow Ben, I had that one on my list too. I think that's an easy note.
01:00:21
Speaker
Yeah. Complete lack of narrative. It's just, yeah, it's just a puzzle. Let me hit you with one. Okay. Now think this one's going cook your noodle. All right. Is.
01:00:33
Speaker
Codename Iceman. An adventure game. Or is it a submarine simulator. With light adventure elements. Oh, yeah.
01:00:45
Speaker
I'm just think about the amount of time you spend doing yeah both of these things. All right. So Codename Iceman, if you have not played it, which is baffling to me, it's a classic.
01:00:58
Speaker
Codename Iceman. Codename Iceman, you do, like the game starts, you're on Tahiti, you're on vacation, you dance a little bit, you have sex with a woman meet. Make little love.
01:01:14
Speaker
uh and then mama and then you you uh fly to the pentagon get your orders fly to california get into a submarine and then you're in a submarine ah doing a submarine simulation for the next six to seven hours
01:01:34
Speaker
i think it has to be an adventure game because it has enough of an adventure game in it like
01:01:43
Speaker
It begins and ends with an adventure This is in... Well, it ends it with an arcade sequence, which you guys get. That's true. But, ah you know, this is like, you know, this is the sort of thing that, you know, what, like that, the...
01:02:01
Speaker
like uh that once upon a time uh there was uh the the like usda and they would like classify if something was food or not fortunately we don't have such a ah foolish thing like that or we're in the process of uh dismantling it uh and this is like one of those things where it's like This code name Iceman might be an adventure game, but you might spell it with a couple of the wrong letters so you don't get sued by the federal government.
01:02:34
Speaker
It's like an avdenture game. Yeah, it's an avdenture game. How did you say that? Avdenture. Avdenture game. Like, yeah funny they have to put on the box contains 51% adventure game elements.
01:02:50
Speaker
not a not a sustainable source of adventure yeah like it's it's a adventure game but like because it's like that capstone category it's like beverly hillbillies it's like it's doing adventure game stuff with arcade stuff it's technically an adventure game in all the ways that count there's so much adventure game stuff in it It's just that there's ah also a lot of fucking bullshit.
01:03:21
Speaker
Well, I'm looking at the box right now. Yeah. What does the box say? It says 3d animated adventure game. All right. Well, there it is. It says it on the box. The end. Well, Ben, let me hit you with this one. is hit indie sensation stair quest, an adventure game.
01:03:45
Speaker
You know, this is, I mean, no, I don't think it's an adventure game. You can go to hell, Ben. You think it's an adventure game? No, it's not. yeah I don't think it's an adventure game either. I've joked it's a walking simulator because you do is walk. Right. But, I mean, it's an arcade game, right? Yeah, about reflexes. It's about learning patterns. It's about, mean, it's absolutely an arcade game masquerading as an adventure game.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think that one's an easy one. Let's maybe loop back around to where we started. What kicked this all off? What inspired Kevin's email? oh Oh, was Papers, Please. Yeah, I mean, we both, when this came up a few episodes ago, we both kind of definitively said
01:04:32
Speaker
Papers, Please is a game I love dearly. It's a game I've written about at Lemp. Why did we both... pretty definitively come down on the no end of this where is it not an adventure game by the kind of standards we've just spoken about uh because it's not a puzzle game okay it's not a puzzle game like i mean like and it's neither a puzzle game nor uh and like a game that doesn't have puzzles and is strictly narrative yeah but i mean you know a lot of games have narrative elements out there but yeah the question is is the you are the mechanics there to serve that narrative or is the narrative something that is there to enhance your experience playing through this core mechanic at the heart of the game and i feel like in adventure games
01:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, it tends to be that the narrative is what's driving this whole train and the mechanics are just a way for you to experience more of that narrative. All right.
01:05:34
Speaker
Well, we solved it. We came up exactly. We we answered that question comprehensively. Yes. And we've given you a great list, irrefutable of games that are and aren't adventure games. Yeah.
01:05:49
Speaker
Uh, so, uh, do you have any, any last thoughts before I close the door on this discussion forever? I guess I would just say we nailed it. Fabulous.
01:05:59
Speaker
I agree. All right. Well, ah thank you so much for joining us for ah Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast. If you'd like to send us a ah email, you can do so at quest quest podcast at gmail.com. Also, please send us a review rate and review us. a five star review helps other people find this podcast program and uh uh you know be sure to to join us every week and uh be sure to join us next week when we discuss the adventure game version of papers please bye