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Parsing parsers
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Pretty clever title right? Well, we never say that in the episode I don't think, I just thought of this while uploading the MP3.
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
Give us a review, they help people find this show! Unless you hated it, in which case, don't.
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Transcript
Editing Challenges and Natural Flow
00:00:29
Speaker
run long I decided to let that one run long this time you know that's 10 seconds less of talking we have to do so that's right because we are on a strict timer these are exactly the same length every week yes the editing you have to do to get them down to that to the second well I mean it's very little editing because we just do it naturally You and i have a limited amount of energy to talk to each other. And once it runs out, we just shut down like robots. That's right. That's right. Now we just clock out and don't speak to each other again until the next quest quest. That's right. And this is quest quest.
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:01:09
Speaker
I'm Ben. I'm Jess. This is ah the adventure game podcast. ah You know, and and we're recording this.
00:01:20
Speaker
Um, uh, uh, we, we just watched separately, uh, half of the, the big euphemistically titled the big game, which was very big game. Wow. How about that football as, as we join you, uh, it's a lopsided contest. It's still underway. I believe it is still underway.
Podcasting During the Big Game
00:01:41
Speaker
We're recording it. This is, this is sad. We're recording a podcast during it.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yes. The commercials for this episode are going to be fantastic. Yeah. We, we got all the celebs that are best friends to do special AI commercials that you're going to love. Yeah. We've got Tostino pizza rolls. We've got, uh, pizza bagels. We've got the zones from pizza hut. We were sponsored by all the best pizza adjacent products.
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, everything but the pizza. No, we could not get that. We could not land that account. Dan was there at Pizza HQ in Chicago all week trying to hammer out a deal. I i made some threats. It was like the beginning of ah the
Quest for Pizza Sponsorship
00:02:26
Speaker
prisoner credits. I was like banging on the table. Yeah, that was specifically what I'm referencing. Yes.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes. No, he's on the table. Yeah, teacup. Like, you know, shakes. and what What is number six saying? What horrible secret does number six saying? And and I, you know what, I know what it is. Yeah, it's why it's like, please if you get pizza ads for the podcast. Well, Ben, I have to ask you, I don't want to put you on the spot. But what is the best Super Bowl snack?
Ben's Dip Potluck Dream
00:03:00
Speaker
I'm a dipsman.
00:03:01
Speaker
You're a dipsman. Now, when you say a dipsman, why are we talking? i Listen, I'll go any dip. There's just something about a warm, I prefer it warm, but I'll have it cold. ah Something about a warm dip. i love i i need In my head, I've had this as a dream for years of having just a dip potluck.
00:03:25
Speaker
Oh man. I feel like never far enough from 2020 that we could finally have a dip potluck and note like, you know, I think we could do it. I think we, we, we, we can have a dip potluck. Okay. So Spanish artichoke dip, obviously. Spanish artichoke dip. So there's a dip that I make that a couple of friends of mine go crazy for. it they'll They'll say, oh, Ben brought his dip. you know are you Are you known for a dip if you're rolling in? Are they like, oh, Jess has got the dip he makes. I think a chicken cordon bleu dip. Oh, tell me more. it It is. It's a slow cooker dip that's just a... shitload of the stuff that's in chicken cordon bleu. It's like a two blocks of cream cheese, chicken breasts that I ah leave in the slow cooker for a while with ah like cheap white wine and then shredded up then you add ah the cream cheese and Swiss and then I'm doing this from memory and then you know, ah chopped up ham and stuff and then you you let it deal even more till you have a delicious hot chicken cordon bleu dip.
00:04:34
Speaker
Wonderful. You get some bagel chips, or you need a heartier chip. Oh, yeah, you're gonna sort of scoop that with like a, you know, simple tortilla. Yeah, cafe style tortilla. Ben, let me ask you an important question.
Chicken Cordon Bleu and Regional Names
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah. ah Late on me as a follow up to my initial point question. All right. Yeah. I have family in Michigan. Okay. And they call chicken cordon bleu chicken packets.
00:05:01
Speaker
Is this something you have ever heard before? I have never heard that. Chicken packets. I guess it's a packet made of chicken with ham and like a cheese inside of it is the concept, but chicken packets. I've listened to America's Midwest for since 2007.
00:05:22
Speaker
I thought this could be a great thing. I know many people from Michigan, including mic anders our friend Sarah lived in Michigan for for some time, I believe. ah Or at least she got married there. But I'm pretty sure she lived there for a bit. Um, I've never heard but you know what, here's the thing.
00:05:44
Speaker
Never really had that much chicken cordon bleu. Like it would be one thing if it was like in Michigan, they call hamburgers, you know, yeah, exactly. Like a little, a little, uh, if they call them beef packets, I'd be like, Oh, I've heard of that. Like a made right or something. But the thing is I don't have chicken cordon bleu enough for me to notice if there are variations on chicken cordon bleu. What do you think the last year that chicken cordon bleu is fancy?
00:06:14
Speaker
Oh, 1918 was World War One thing. Oh, wow. Yeah. Do you think it was the end of the war that really like killed it? Yeah, that was the end of the war. You know, we had a surplus of blue.
00:06:31
Speaker
Wow. Well, this I mean, I'm just gonna say guacamole. I mean, it's a simple treat, but a homemade guacamole. I mean, that's a good day. Yeah, I don't know if you've had it, but it's good stuff. ah good gu A good A good guac.
Dip Potluck Planning
00:06:45
Speaker
I like a I like a hot chicken wing dip. Oh, yeah, chicken wing dip. What are we're at for then hummus. You know, what's good French onion dip. Nothing wrong with that and a wavy chip.
00:06:58
Speaker
pretty tasty. Yeah, see, this is think about the dip potluck. No, this is all these potluck. Imagine all those dips out available to you. And then you have a variety. The nice thing about a dip potluck is that you can have all the different vessels for dips as well. You can have those crisped up, you know, little slices of rye bread. Yeah, some, some flat bread is in play for an event like that. No, I mean, the potluck it's it's time everyone.
00:07:25
Speaker
everybody get on board. I've been to a soup potluck. And that was pretty good. Soup potlucks are great. But if you have a dip potluck, please let us know and send us an email with a photo at quest quest podcast at gmail dot.com.
00:07:40
Speaker
yeah we will like We will fit it into our first 30-minute long segment on food that we do every
Civilization 7 Anticipation
00:07:47
Speaker
single week now. I realize we really probably should vary this. It'd be great if we talked about video games or something. Ben, why have you been playing lately? Oh, what have I been playing?
00:08:00
Speaker
It shouldn't make me laugh every week, but it does. Well, Jess, when we record this, We are just a couple days from the official release of Civilization 7. Yes.
00:08:21
Speaker
People are already playing it now because they might have bought, like, the the deluxe edition, which gave it to them, like, I think a week early. to play a game for a week. What kind of fool do you take me for? What kind of fool do you take me for?
00:08:45
Speaker
i So you know what, you've not been playing. Yeah, worried. I'm playing it just a little bit to kind of hype myself up for sieve seven. But I'm not playing six too much because I don't want to burn my sieve attention span you know I mean absolutely like if because I've done this if I play too much of civ6 civ7 will be out and I've already pre-ordered it I just think it the deluxe edition it will be out and I'll I'll download it and start it and go I've been playing civ all week
00:09:37
Speaker
can't do this yeah no I mean this is like a skill I feel like civ players have been honing since around 1992 or so like this is always the challenge as a new sim our new civ like lurks on the horizon it looms you have to be careful not to burn yourself out I mean this is this is a challenge just actually happened to me recently I was like Looking at some, yeah I like a good wrestling sim. I was gonna play a little bit of WWE 2K24, but then it's like 25s right around the corner. If bad I got my body slamming done now, am I might be ready to body slam when the time comes. That's right, yeah. Well, are those games that different, like the the year to year on those? I know that some generally
00:10:21
Speaker
for those yearly releases, some are, yeah like, definitely... Yeah. Really, the only difference from year to year is they pick some superstar, and for some reason, their model is far, far worse than the previous year, and you're like... It's a fun little game. Yeah, did they just, like, make you angry or something and you decided to make John Cena look like an even bigger goof than he already looks? Yeah.
00:10:49
Speaker
But, uh, so that's what I've been playing. i Here's the thing also with Civ VI, and this is true, actually, of any, like, sieve of advanced siveness. Yes. I don't even know what...
00:11:05
Speaker
Civs like civilizations. I like Playing anymore because there's been so many DLC. There's been two expansion packs There's like five thousand civilizations and eight billion leaders, and I don't know anymore I don't know who I like to play all America started up. It's just be all these folks and I'll just stare at the list and be like i mean what's this bonus? I don't even know what that bonus is yield. What's a yield?
00:11:34
Speaker
No, what not until I say yield with you. where I mean, is there a bonus you look for? Like, is there something that, like, do you lean toward military bonuses? Do you lean toward anything in general like that? Science science or or culture, because just progressing through those trees very quickly is... I'm not usually a war player. Every now and again, I'll play, like, a domination.
00:12:08
Speaker
I always like a civilization with some sort of like starting sea power of some sort, either like better harvests of fish or like an early, you know, sailing advantage or something like that. I'm never good at ruling the seas, but I like to imagine I'm a win. I don't know if anyone's good at ruling the seas. Yeah, I mean, that's a hard game to play instead. Like that is a, I will say sometimes the computer player is quite good at ruling the seas as they dominate me, but I wouldn't know where to begin.
00:12:38
Speaker
Yeah. The only C's I rule are C, volization. Jess, what have you been playing lately?
Dixit Game Experience
00:12:50
Speaker
Ben, what have I been playing lately? I am going to, I think, break new ground here. um i I'm going to talk about playing a tabletop board game. Wow, you're breaking newgrands.com. That's right. So I have been playing, and I don't know if this is one you're familiar with at all, Dixit lately. Dixit. My family has always called it Dizat.
00:13:14
Speaker
is that why it is I don't know because it's a French game so we were always like oh I believe it's French what if I've been lying what if I'm lying to all of our incredible ah but we always called it my family we called it these in yeah we got it's a French board game okay we got dicks it
00:13:33
Speaker
that's such a fun do you is that a is that a family game is this it is a family game we've been rate family game it's a great family game oh man it's it's beautiful I mean it may be some of our listeners if you don't know decent perhaps you know Mysterium I think is built on a similar premise of it's a art based deduction and bluffing game of sports where you are dealt a hand of cards with beautiful art just like really beautiful evocative pieces of art on each card. but What would be something on what's what's one of the cards? Oh gosh there was one in our set that was just like
00:14:16
Speaker
I don't know like a fantasy of clock faces that you were falling into or something like that. You know, just like a lot of them are pretty trippy. They're pretty far out there. Yeah, a lot of those. But they're gorgeous. I mean, that's the first thing about this. They're just a joy to look at. And the idea is the person whose turn it is, you look at one of your cards that you're playing to play. And you kind of have the clue about that card, like maybe an emotion that evokes or a small story you want to tell, or we even open it up to like interpretive dance type things or anything you want to like hint at the contents of this card. And then everyone else, once you get in the clue, they're gonna play the card from their hand that they think matches that clue well.
00:15:00
Speaker
yeah and your job is to throw people off your head without completely misleading them so far that nobody guesses your clue. It's kind of like in apples to apples-ish. It is. It has a little bit of vibe. It exists within that lineage.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah, there's a a level of creativity to it that's sort of fun. it's a <unk>s I think it's neat for a different kind of thinking that a lot of games give you. We also have a Disney edition, which is kind of fun. It has the same sort of surreal, beautiful, impressionistic art and everything, just oftentimes featuring Disney characters or films. So that adds a little bit, i especially when we're playing with kids. But yeah, DC um is is a game I've been enjoying quite a bit.
00:15:49
Speaker
that's a Yeah, I haven't played that in a long time. Maybe yeah maybe I should pull my my box of it out. Well, yes, I would also like to turn on another tune we haven't heard a lot of lately. So we have an email I get to play this other tune. ah There it is, the sound of feedback.
00:16:13
Speaker
So we received this email from Chris. I'm going to condense it. He's a behind on the podcast, but that's okay because we're behind on responding to this email that came to us in December. But this ties us actually
00:16:40
Speaker
Among many points he was talking about, including he was talking about some of his favorite comedy please take take a look at the YJ games. We're on that. We're on it. Check.
00:17:09
Speaker
Also worth discussing is The Longest Journey.
What Makes a Good UI in Adventure Games
00:17:13
Speaker
Maybe. Maybe someday. have you Have you played The Longest Journey, Jess? I played it at release and played like a few hours into it, but not far enough to really form a strong opinion other than at the time I didn't want to play a lot more. So it's why I need to revisit. I've never finished The Longest Journey because
00:17:56
Speaker
that it doesn't? The thing is, is I love everything else about the game. I love how it looks, I love the voices, I love, like, I think the puzzles in general. are fine and And I love the whole world that's that's built into it. It just all doesn't coke here for me. But maybe maybe I need to give it another we're going to talk to talk about today. It's a a request quest.
00:18:29
Speaker
Request Quest. Chris says, it's a niche topic. I know. But could you cover what makes a good user interface in a point and click game? Because there have been some howlers over the years. What bugs me personally is either not enough items to interact with on screen until the world comes across as dull and stale and a difficult to use inventory. I think Under a Killing Moon had a great interface for examining and finding items, but it looks clunky today, which I would agree with.
00:18:56
Speaker
And thank you, ah Chris. And if you want to send us an email, perhaps we'll do a request quest off of it. ah And an email, of course, again, is quest quest podcast at gmail dot.com. Jess, would you like to take it away?
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah, I know. This is a great question. I think adventure game interfaces are something that we've touched on a bunch of times already. I think this is this is fascinating. Like, you know, so many genres, the interface, I think, is, you know, a lot of what drives this genre definitionally. And interfaces in adventure games have evolved so much since those early days. I guess My question that I would like us to tackle here definitively, objectively, once and for all is what is the best adventure game interface? yeah I think we can settle it here. We'll finally solve it and finally solve it. The one empirically best interface. Yes. And hopefully we will see then developers heed our word and dispense with all of these interfaces that simply aren't working.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah. Get rid of all the junk. Toss out the crap. Get rid of crap. Get rid of the crap. We're tired of the crap. Look at at you tank controls. Look at at you Grim Fandango. You know, I listen, I played Grim Fandango at the time but and beat it. Yeah. and The tank controls. And, you know, ah some say that that Stockholm syndrome isn't real, but, you know, I came around to the Grim Fandango tank controls. That's what I'm saying. Did you beat that without hints? No, come on. OK, I was going to say.
00:20:42
Speaker
but I think I did a fair amount of some of the I remember the i like messing around with you know this is this is a great question Jess because last week uh Francisco asked us what, what a hard adventure game puzzle was. And my brain just completely froze. Like I just could not think of one, but that's a great example of a game that has a lot of difficult puzzles, which I would agree, like he, he said, and he wasn't saying this about Graham. I don't know if he'd agree or not with this. Um, but, uh, like Rubicava, I always like have difficulty with like the stuff with.
00:21:29
Speaker
the ah dress tickets or the like the co claim tickets and that little ticket maker thing that always has confused the hell out of me. Some of this stuff in part three really ah confused the hell out of me like I just could not put together some of it is just ah because those um
00:21:57
Speaker
There there is a lot of puzzles in grim that are are very kind of finicky like that require you to twist around like other items interact with items directly. Yes. And ah so They don't allow for random chance if you're you've just kind of given up and you're just running around and mashing things into each other. Yes. Now, I mean, I hesitate to go down the Gran Fandango path too far because that's eventually an episode and I feel like my hot takes on Gran Fandango are probably what will get me and by extension our podcast eventually canceled. ah so So let's talk about ah let's let's talk about you eyes.
00:22:44
Speaker
Let's talk about us. Now, yeah, obviously, a for ah they stand it stands for useful icons. oh go yeah As I understand it, ah user interface. So we're thinking here, you know, how do you actually interact with these worlds? And we've seen, I mean, at some level, there's been a chronological ah your progression of this that I think in part is of course tied to the technologies of the day. It's no surprise we start out with text parsers at a time when you know the idea of displaying graphics on screen was still several years off. And as we move through to
00:23:24
Speaker
modern games, I think rather than it being quite so much of a, you know, we, we leave one interface behind and move to the next one today. We're at a kind of lovely place at venture games where there are lots of old and new takes on these interfaces kind of popping up in the games they're game made. I thought it might be good to maybe walk through some of these categories, highlight some games, and then maybe talk about which ones really click with us and and which ones oh which ones click with us. ah Oh, yes, that was on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I see. I see that you wrote everything that you just said in longhand. You've been reading it very carefully. So that's true. Yeah. I mean, that's how this whole thing is. Yeah. I mean, we actually record these separately and we just drop in our audio with one another. This is all very scripted. um I mean, while we're both in different states, how would it be possible otherwise? So let's go all the way back to the beginning.
Text Parsers: Appeal and Challenges
00:24:18
Speaker
Let's talk about text parsers now.
00:24:22
Speaker
You know I love text parsers. Text parsers are kind of my ideal. I love the freedom of being able to interact with a game by typing any ding-dang thing I want into that parser. I love the illusion when those parsers are able to give the impression that maybe they understand more than they possibly could. Like ah sometimes a good, you can't do that, at least not now.
00:24:44
Speaker
at least gave me that feeling that the game was somehow understanding what I said, you know, in King's Quest 2 would say that to me rather than that's a generic thing to, you know, yeah so we can say we rather than us saying again, we didn't recognize that noun or verb or something like that. Yeah, I love a good text parser. Ben, where are you? I mean, we go back to Zork. Yeah, I think I've I've said I'm not see I mean, I grew up with text parsers, but that those weren't my games. You know, yeah, like, like text parser games just weren't weren't my games. And so, like, I appreciate them. And I, you know, when I played ah Crimson Diamond last year, and I played, i was I was kind of like, Oh, you know, like, I think it's very cool that she threw back and did this
00:25:40
Speaker
text parser thing in the the game, but i you know I wasn't thrilled about it just because that's not a thing that I necessarily enjoy. But it was such a responsive parser. It was very clearly tested so much that when it works and you type a thing and then the like you know if it's just straight zork. So like by using Crimson Diamond, I'm kind of skipping ahead a little bit.
00:26:11
Speaker
But in Zork or in Infocom or something, and Infocom was generally very good about having a fairly flexible parser. It feels like a magic trick, as you were saying. Like it feels like, oh my, oh my goodness. Like how did they, how'd they do that? How'd they figure that out? Like how we're, I'm talking to the computer.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah, no, especially when you do stumble on something like kind of unexpected that actually does pick up on. Like those are always very satisfying when you dig out that piece, that unexpected joke that is lurking somewhere in that text parser. I think that, yeah, that freedom for me is where the appeal is made. And obviously there are problems with that. but I mean, you're very much when these are poorly designed, you're in guess the synonym that the game wants territory when you have a bad text parser.
00:27:05
Speaker
Uh, obviously this is a challenge if you're operating outside of the games, you know, original language that it was developed in. I mean, text parsers cause all kinds of potential challenges when they're done poorly. You know, you mentioned Crimson diamond, one that I've had my eye on, uh, an indie game, uh, that's been the works for a while. Oh, I appreciate.
00:27:28
Speaker
Are you familiar with the Cascadia Quest? Have you? No, I've not heard of this, please. Okay, interesting. Yeah, this is ah one that it's been in development for a while. I've been following it on i'm goingnna ah on various platforms. ah Phil Fortier. I hope I'm pronouncing Phil's name correctly. Oh, oh I think I did. I think I was working on this one. Yeah.
00:27:53
Speaker
What's neat about it is that it's a text parser, but it implements auto suggest and auto complete, which what a fun idea. I mean, if you look at this game, it looks very much like a Sierra SCI style game. It a kind has like.
00:28:10
Speaker
Code name as Manny looking vibes, even though it's not that setting at all. um Add this to the wish list. Yes, absolutely. I mean, you're looking at now and you're added to the wish list and everyone should. But yeah, the idea of using an old Sierra style parser and it incorporating autocomplete auto suggest.
00:28:30
Speaker
I think that is one of the most interesting iterations I've seen on this. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's great. I mean, cause again, these, I think that this feels like a very challenging interface for a lot of people and this help get over that hump a little bit. Yeah. You also have interesting things like these are still there. It does look super cool. Doesn't it? This game looks neat.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. To me, it's a lot like some of the scenes look like Codename Ask Man. Some look a little bit like Larry three to think, but it's definitely. I i have not. i I have not really. I heard about this a long time ago now that. Yeah. I believe at one point it was called Cascade Quest and now it's Cascadia Quest.
00:29:13
Speaker
Yeah, and and I hadn't like checked in on it for a while. So I'm watching the animated gifs in the ah on the steam page really looks very neat. um Yes. So yeah, anyway, that's the one. Yeah, I think another game that kind of played with this concept ah somewhere in the middle of this era, you know, we taking a like leisure suit Larry seven that is largely a point-and-click adventure with an optional text parser for maybe a puzzle or two here and there and for some extra jokes and things like that. I don't know if this implementation, I mean, like to me, Leisure Suit Larry 7 feels like it has too much interface already. I don't know that adding a text parser back into a point-and-click game really was a great value add, but I get what Al Lowe was going for. He was going for that sort of, you know,
00:30:04
Speaker
I got the sense that they always missed like, you know, didn't like Scott Murphy say that he preferred the like having a text input parser, like on the the AGI and SCI zero games. Yes. I think a lot of the designers did. I think they missed that ability. I do think it lessened their workload a lot. I mean, you can now like.
00:30:29
Speaker
You don't, you know, the hotspots are the hotspots. You know, whatever you say is clickable, is clickable, and you don't have to write messages for all those things that aren't as important to you. But yeah, I do think a lot of the CR developers in particular mentioned that as they moved on later down the road to an icon style, they'll talk about in a moment that they they missed some of that element. and Yeah, I think Lucious Suit Larry Seven was an attempt to bring that back a little bit. But boy, yeah, like I said, it turns into a lot of interface in the process. Too much interface. Yeah. You know, before we get to the CRS style icons, though, you know, I think that the next evolution
00:31:09
Speaker
step here is to what I think of as the, a symbol, a sentence with point and click style interface. you know um Here, of course, scum engine, that's the, the most obvious version. Legend does maybe an even wilder version of this where you have way more verbs, way more nouns on screen. Legend, those are ah text adventures. It just has like a list of nouns and verbs, right?
00:31:37
Speaker
I think they usually have graphics too. like um they yeah yes and the graph thing is but It's a still shot. You're usually in each room is a still image or maybe with some minimal animation on it, but you're getting like a scene and then text description and then like a big long list of verbs and a big long list of nouns. And you're clicking your verb with your noun to assemble a command, much like you do in a simpler form in a scum game, you know, maniac mansion.
00:32:02
Speaker
uh, introduces this, you know, you click on look and then you click on Adam on the screen or you click on open and you click on a door. it's And it's really funny to think of how text parser leads to that scum style of, uh, like how that works or, or like a Sierra, you know, parse like a size zero, uh,
00:32:29
Speaker
Like, especially in like maniac mansion, it is heavily, it's letting you know exactly what the text sentence that produced the action that you're about to take showing up on the screen. So it bridges.
00:32:47
Speaker
like a mouse interface with with text, it's you're constructing sentences, you're just not typing. That's right. You know, I think as a kid, I kind of lumped all the point and clicks together, like this is this is one thing. But I do think this is an incremental step, the more I thought about it, you know, this idea of, yeah, I mean, still, you are parsing commands, it's just instead of typing those verbs and nouns, you're now assembling them through pointing and clicking, but still, yeah, you're still creating sentences, you know, exactly what command you put in. ah You know, it it was open door, it wasn't interact with this spot on the screen, which is a little bit of an incremental step before we get to the full blown
00:33:34
Speaker
you know, icon interface. I feel like this yeah Sierra popularizes the icon interface with Kings Quest 5. I feel like a lot of other companies very quickly adopted this as something of a standard feels like we have a period where there are LucasArts style scum type games, and then very icon driven games.
00:33:53
Speaker
It's I like going back to the the the scum style for a bit. And yeah, because there were like some non LucasArts games that had scum style ah ah interfaces as well with like a list of verbs on the bottom. Yeah. um The i
00:34:16
Speaker
what what's interesting is, is that with like maniac mansion, as as those went on, they lost more and more verbs and yes yeah ah like how it works became simpler and simpler to like where you have maniac mansion where you have push and pull and open and close. ah And you know, all of ah like turn on turn off, I believe is in there. Let me let me take a look. Maniac Mansion screenshot. No, not TV show. No, although that could be an episode in the future mark that down.
00:34:53
Speaker
So you have in maniac mansion push pull give open close read walk to pick up what is unlock new kid use turn on turn off and then this is this is a really useless one fix.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yes. But if you think about it within not the context of, oh, these kind of duplicate, it's more that it's like, well, if I was playing a text adventure, if I was playing King's Quest I, those are the verbs that I would use if I was playing, you know? Yeah. No, I mean, and this sort of whittling down, I think that's where we head. You know, I think that You know, LucasArts whittles down its list of verbs. And then as we move into a more icon focused approach, now you have. It's completely abstracted. yeah Your hand is every possible interaction. Yeah. And it's not like you don't put the hand over a shoe and it doesn't say interact shoe. It just.
00:35:57
Speaker
Like there are some games where it might highlight that, but I mean, not, not Sierra games generally. Uh, it would just be, you have the hand over the shoe. Um, that's right. Those were my favorite. When I say like, that wasn't my game. If, if I, if I was to say what my favorite interface was as a child, it would be the basic, uh, like starting with King's quest five mouse interface with those icons. I just thought.
00:36:27
Speaker
I was just like, Oh, this just makes perfect sense. There's there's no better interface was my thought. And yeah the the predominant one that they had for most of the games kind of is annoyed when they added more buttons in Gabriel night one. Oh, and they're so unnecessary. Yeah, you what you have open you have closed you have like,
00:36:50
Speaker
pick up and more of an interact are a little bit broken apart there. and Aren't they separate? They have like a gear to interact with something versus pick it up. Are you? Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it adds a lot. um They're pretty icons. It's a great looking UI. But yeah, I mean, at some level, I think that move towards simplicity made sense. I don't know that Gabriel not did enough interesting things with the extra icons to really justify adding four or five of them. Did you have a preference in the 90s between like a scum style and a ah and into Sierra style?
00:37:26
Speaker
You know, I was kind of grumpy about the Sierra style icons. Yeah. You know, I didn't I didn't love the shift to the icon interface. um i I mean, yeah, I love the text parsers. Those were my games. That's why I grew up on. ah So it's really what I identified as like core to an adventure game.
00:37:47
Speaker
ah I kinda was able to see LucasArts games as something else, but I really felt like when my favorite series that used to be a parser interface, like a King's Quest or a Space Quest, jumped over to the icon interface, I was a little bit grumpy about it. I just didn't like it. I mean, part of that was,
00:38:05
Speaker
I don't know that the puzzle design on the first round of Sierra's point-and-click games for any of those games was the strongest. Like I don't know if the puzzle design in Kings Quest V, you know, ah Space Quest IV, or certainly Leisure Suit Larry V were their strongest games. And I think that in my head at the time, I blamed a little bit of that on the icon interface, which it wasn't. Clearly, later games were quite good using that icon interface. But yeah, I mean, like Leisure Suit Larry 5 in particular, I remember, I got all three of those games for Christmas one year. Like, yeah, that was the best Christmas ever. It was King's Quest V, Larry V, and Space Quest IV.
00:38:46
Speaker
And I remember I had beaten Larry five by New Year's after a receiving on Christmas like, Oh man, this is all the, the icon interfaces fault. This game's too easy. It's like, no, turns out Sierra set out to make that an easy game as an experiment to see if players would be happy with easier to complete games and then go back and replay them for maximum points, which of course they never did. And people stayed mad over religious suit, Larry five, but not for the right reasons. Cause there are lots of good reasons to be mad at leisure. See Larry five that aren't that So, yeah, I mean, I didn't love these. I've come to appreciate them. Some of my favorite Sierra games are from this era now.
LucasArts vs Sierra Interfaces
00:39:24
Speaker
But yeah, I didn't love it right away. And I think I preferred the LucasArts, you know, scum style, ah point and click a little more.
00:39:35
Speaker
I think what I liked about the LucasArts style of it when I played it as a kid was I did love dialogue options. Yeah. Because most Sierra games, not all of them, like Quest for Glory allows you to to say certain things and like Gabriel Knight, some other names, ah but in general,
00:39:58
Speaker
like in a LucasArts game, you can so you have multiple dialogue selections for every single ah interaction that you have. And in Sierra games, you don't you just have talked to person multiple times and eventually they just say the same thing. Yeah, and you know, we'll say The LucasArts scum interface also allows us one of my all-time favorite adventure game gags, which is the breaking into the governor's house on melee island and the fight with fester shine top behind the wall. If you didn't have that assemble a sentence with point and click verbs interface,
00:40:38
Speaker
You couldn't have that series of wonderful jokes as guy brush fats with fester as series of increasingly ridiculous sentences are assembled in the parser using birds. You don't have right before your very eye. That sequence made me laugh so much as a child. I was like, there's nothing funnier than this. Like there will never be a funnier joke than this. This is so funny. I bet we talked about in our comedy games episode, but that might be my favorite.
00:41:07
Speaker
like adventure game joke about adventure games. that has ever been made. It's so good. But again, you can only do that in the scum ah sort of interface where you're assembling those sentences. It wouldn't be nearly as funny if it crossed the bottom of the screen to said hand on yak. It's not not the same thing. um And so yeah and there there are other interfaces within like that that aren't necessarily either the Sierra or the scum or what we're going to talk about next.
00:41:40
Speaker
Uh, like as mentioned in the email, there's under under a killing moon, like those access games have their own interface, which I think it's fine. The, the problem with the text Murphy games is just more how you move, which is terrible. Um, you move forward by moving your mouse forward and it's a 3d game.
00:42:02
Speaker
Like, so it's not like with your arrow keys or WS ASD, this would be before it, WSA ASD. But, uh, like you, if you move your mouse forward, you move forward. If you like, it's really yucky.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah, but like all the other stuff on the interface is perfectly fine. ah but But just what was next on the list? Ben, before we go out, I do want to, i've this is unprecedented, but I've sent you a message in our Discord about one of these terrific icon-based interfaces. oh It is the lanes world point and click adventure game by Austin games. Yup. From 19 93. Could you tell us what's the difference here? Doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, it does a little bit, but could you describe the series of icons that appear in the Wayne's world based on the popular, uh, SNL sketch and film, uh, can you describe the icons that you see here on screen that we interact with this point and click adventure game through? So I'm looking at an image, the theta top half is of Wayne's basement where they recorded the Wayne's World, a little public access show that they do. And at the bottom we have, um it's a scum style, always it's always up, right? It doesn't pop up. Always up.
00:43:23
Speaker
Oh, he's up a bunch of that's one of the nice things about the Sierra one is that it pops. Like if you put the mouse over it, yeah you can just make sure of it. Yeah. um But this is always up but it has a Sierra style. ah This still makes me laugh. This is so funny.
00:43:43
Speaker
um ah and So you have pictographs instead of um instead of ah written words, except some of the pictures are unclear, they've put words on them to help. Yeah, so you like close up of of Garth. And that that's probably look and then there's a hand that's open with an arrow pointing down. So I'm assuming that's drop, then there's a ah magnifying glass up to an eye, which I'm assuming more closely. Yeah. Examine, examine versus look. I always like when those are separated out, don't you? Then you just have Wayne holding a sign that says you use, which is very funny.
00:44:26
Speaker
And you have like speech lines coming out of Wayne's mouth. Okay. We're we're back in business. This is good. Then you have push and you have pull. That's pretty clear. Um, then you have a closeup on maybe Wayne's face and the side of his, like you see one eye and the side of his nose. So I'm going to guess it's smell.
00:44:51
Speaker
Is it small? No idea. I have no idea. It's been so long since I played this one, but it's inexplicable for visually. And then and then you have what looks like give. Yeah, like a hand dropping something into another hand. And these last two are my favorite. who Then you have Wayne with his mouth open and underneath it in very light text, like translucent text, it says open. So it isn't talked to.
00:45:19
Speaker
And then the other one with his mouth open, but it's not talked to. Yeah. And then the other time looking, you know, kind of like he's pondering something, but his mouth is is kind of pursed and it says clues. Awful. Just terrible. Right. I mean, that is then just right next to it. in in the menu. Yeah, I mean, it's a terrible implementation of this and just write about that inexplicable. And again, probably legitimately, like five to six of these are completely unnecessary. ah You can, if not more. um I mean, yeah, when this is done poorly, it is truly awful. And that's why
00:46:01
Speaker
I think elegance is so important. And what I love about this next incremental evolution of the of the icon interface, then I'm going to lay all my cards on the table here. I love me a verb coin. You're a verb coin boy. I'm a verb coins man.
00:46:20
Speaker
Now, okay. versus The coinage of the realm, as far as I'm concerned. So there's the Lucas heart's verb coins, which I like return full throttle in crucial monkey Island. And especially in crucial monkey Island, I think it's excellent. Then their verb coins does like returned to Zork, which is considerably earlier. Is that a verb coin?
00:46:41
Speaker
Ooh, that's a good question. It's been so long since I played return my return to Zork when you interact with something, I believe it's a right click. It opens up like a verb coin and it has bespoke. Um, options like so it might have different ones and kind of scum style, but more specifically, info com style, it has the text of what the action you're going to take. Ah, so it's like a context sensitive verb coin. Yeah, it's like, exactly. Let me how do we describe a verb coin. If people don't know what we're talking about. That's a great question. A verb coin is you put your ah like you you click somewhere in
00:47:27
Speaker
In the LucasArts ones, it is that you hold ah like you hold down your mouse for a second, and then it shows up. um ah And then you get like a little pop up with a couple verbs on it, like open, close, or not open, close, but like, look, you know, interact, talk. um You have a right click to the inner inventory.
00:47:55
Speaker
Uh, yeah. Um, I really verb coins. I like, I don't like the verb coin in, uh, the Star Trek games in 25th and, uh, in judgment rights. Yes. I think it's really yucky. just It just feels good. No. And I mean, I wonder like I say I'm a verb coins man. And I mean, do you just like that Lucas arts one?
00:48:21
Speaker
I think I might just like the Curse of Monkey Island one. I don't even love the full throttle one. um I think I just love Curse of Monkey Island so much that it makes me love a good verb coin forever. I mean, I i designed a game late last night ah where we implemented our own verb coin much to my team's ah dismay because I was like,
00:48:42
Speaker
I'd like this game to have a verb point. and Everyone said, do you know how much more work that will be to implement an AGS? And I said, I don't really care. I'm not the one coding it get to work. We've got two weeks to finish the stair stair quest to has a verb coin. Stair quest to should have a verb coin. The verb will be walk.
00:49:00
Speaker
Um, and you'll be able to choose, uh, up or down depending on, uh, on the context at any given time. Yeah. So you just like the the curse verb coin because yeah, the one in Star Trek is is just yucky. I think the one in, um, like, uh, the, the one in returned his work is neat, but is kind of annoying.
00:49:24
Speaker
Um, just like little swudgy. Um, yeah, but it's it's, it's neat. I think it's flexibility and that it's context and sensitive is actually pretty cool. Um,
00:49:38
Speaker
But, uh, but, but sometimes it feels a little, a little yucky. That just might be the game. The game is a little yucky. It's really, I mean, we love it. We've talked about this an episode. Our most listened to episode up to this point, our Star Trek 25th anniversary episode. And I mean,
00:49:57
Speaker
It's a game, but it's one of those games that's good in Spivet's interface rather than because of it. There's, I mean, Curse of Monkey Island is just a blessed game that fires on all cylinders. Do you love the verb coin or do you just love Curse of Monkey Island?
00:50:15
Speaker
I just left Curse of Monkey Island and that means I love everything about it. Right. That's why I thought, you know, yeah you're also is saying like, it should just, all games should have Dominic Armato doing voice work, which honestly, I mean, it wouldn't, it it would, it would be good. You know what? He would be a fantastic Nathan Drake. Yeah. I could see him as maybe an assassin, an episode of Assassin's Creed. I mean,
00:50:42
Speaker
What can't Dominic Armato do? I mean, we've seen him do one thing so far, but he does it really well, so I can only assume he would do other things well as well. That's true. ah Yeah, I mean, I'm okay on verb coins. i'm not I mean, the one in in monkey Curse of Monkey Island is great, but you know. It's unfair because it's the best game ever. all I'll note ah that this is also a case of that pairs down the amount of verbs you have.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yes. Yes, absolutely. I mean, typically, that's going to take it even further into very few verbs territory. um So yeah, in that sense, it's another one that simplifies. And you know, all of these that are using a completely graphical interface, I mean, the the biggest advantage business wise with that is definitely the localization thing. I mean, this is something that Sierra saw as important when they made the shift to icons was you need to sell this in international markets around the world.
00:51:42
Speaker
It's a lot easier to convert a user interface based around a picture of an eyeball, a hand, a walking person, ah you know simple things like that into into other languages versus something that's much more text driven. And the curse verb coin is just three verbs. It's hand, eyes, and mouth. Yeah. I mean, what else do you need? Those are the three main things I use every day. That's right.
00:52:13
Speaker
i yeah that just true where i use some You know, I think and we we even see elements of this. I think a lot of context sensitive interfaces nowadays, like maybe you see it as an evolution of the verb coin, you know, something like, you know, return to Mikey Allen has something of a context sensitive, you know, radial menu style ah sort of thing when you interact. I think that even games like laugh is strange have elements of this as you interact in many cases where it's, you know, maybe less of a full stylized coin, but more of a, you click on an item and it contextually gives you some options on what you would like to do with it. I feel like that's the, almost the successor of the full blown verb point. The scheme for monkey Island kind of does that also yeah i guess it gives you, it gives you some bespoke options. Um, uh, when you walk up to something,
00:53:09
Speaker
Yeah. No, I'm just even remembering like the little tutorial intro where you're tied up to the mast and it gives you a bunch of options. Yeah. in it yourself but yeah yeah Like in a, like a choose your own adventure, but that's a trademark. So a twine like way. Yeah. I mean, this is bad because we worked so hard to say big game at the beginning of the episode to avoid that lawsuit. yeah And you just trot out choose your own adventure. Like we're made of money. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:36
Speaker
I mean, I am, but I can't. Are you? I mean, yeah, you're a property owner. um ah Yeah, but not yet. Not even by the time that this comes out. Oh, man. But I mean, from there, I feel like things get a little bit less of like a chronological progression. I don't know that from here, we move through such distinct stages. I mean, certainly there's a move toward single-click that a lot of games, you know, go with the, well, why do we need a separate talk, look and interact? We paired it down to three. Why not just when you click on something, the rat thing happens. I mean, Kai Randy, it does that.
00:54:20
Speaker
Yeah, early on, like, yeah. I mean, Kings quest seven, I think is a single click interface, isn't it? Yep. Yeah. So I mean, this takes hold and then maybe one that I think has had a lot of, uh, you know, history to it at this point, the left click interact, right click look or, uh, or vice versa. Yeah, I think it goes both ways, right? I mean, you'll see some games where maybe it flips those the other direction. But yeah, the using left and right click basically to to examine something or to interact with it. Oftentimes left click will also walk you around the screen. Did broken sword have that or no, I don't even remember broken sword has broken broken sword angle click. I think broken sword had the left right. I think I don't remember.
00:55:10
Speaker
I was just playing it. I was just playing the remaster. And I don't remember. now Yeah. I mean, even like some of the early scum games had a simple version of that. Like maybe if you like. Oh, yeah. Well, I would have right click on door. Yeah. Right click on door. It would automatically go to open for you. But yeah, later ones got a little bit smarter with that. um How do you feel about that? I mean, do you think pairing these down to a single click or a left and right click?
00:55:37
Speaker
you know, how how does that work for you? Are we are we losing too much interface or backing your own interface? Can we really focus on the game? So I feel like I'm kind of burrowing down to a, like a kind of thesis here, ah which is that maybe I feel best at the polls, which is to say, like,
00:56:01
Speaker
like the more it's either the more interface that you have or the less interface that you have, you know what I mean? Hey, like, I like this, you're like in between, like, like, ah you either have this text interface where it's either a text adventure, or something like an AGI or SEO.
00:56:21
Speaker
um ah like text parser, where it's a like, but at best, it's responsive. And i it does what you say it to do. Or you're playing a game where the interface is just out of your way and doesn't really, you don't have to worry about it. Because, like, I don't know if I need to open and close. You know, yeah, does that do anything for me? Really?
00:56:53
Speaker
Like, you know, I don't know if I need, and the thing is, is that once you have use as a verb, use is such a broad thing. Uh-huh. And whereas like open and close are so specific, you know what I mean? Yeah. So like, I think I, that's, you know, and I started to think about this in, during this conversation where I'm like,
00:57:23
Speaker
i think I like it either with like a ton or very little. And I don't know how I feel about the middle. Okay, so like a scum or a nearly invisible interface are kind of where you're leaning toward. Yeah, or or a text or an invisible. Yeah. but Yeah, I think Even though I said I didn't come up, you know, the funny thing is, is that I don't have as much fun with the Sierra point and click interface anymore. It doesn't. I've when I was a kid, I liked to that one more. And now if I'm using one, I prefer like a scum. um But I think just in terms of playing a game, like, I guess as a player, I i
00:58:17
Speaker
I'd rather the the game knows what I'm like, it tells me what it wants me to do with something as opposed to giving me 12 options for it. Or I figure it out. Like I type in smell the roses, you know? Uh huh. Sometimes you have to stop and do that. exactly and That's why I've always been saying and that's the thesis of this podcast. Yeah, gather your rosebuds while you may. And don't forget to stop and smell them while you're doing it. um I don't know how do you feel about that? How do you feel about this idea? I just tossed this, i like like I just threw on the floor. I like this idea that if you're going to give me a bunch of interface, man, give me a bunch of interface. I want to wallow in like something where, yeah, I mean, again, I love a text parser. I like the, you know, scum with a whole bunch of verbs on my screen. I have some affinity for that or
00:59:13
Speaker
kind of just take it away. Like I don't, I think a left click, right click interface for, uh, you know, interact and look that works awfully well. I mean, I can't, it's hard to be real mad at that sort of thing when it allows you to sort of get the interface out of the way and appreciate the game. yeah I was thinking it as you were saying that like, I'm trying to think.
00:59:36
Speaker
You know, I guess it's possible for a good game to overcome a bad interface. But, oh man, there's nothing worse than a bad game with a bad interface. Like I go back to a game like Wayne's World, or really any of those horrible capstone adventures. Listeners who haven't played them, capstone entertainment released just some real stinkers. Wayne's World, ah they do hillbillies, which is maybe one of the worst games I've ever played. A I haven't played yet.
01:00:06
Speaker
I haven't played yet because I'm afraid to. It feels like one of those games. I mean, this is something we have to ask ourselves, Ben. I think you'll back me up on this as streamers. You look at a game like that and you think, oh, boy, that'll be hilarious to play a game based on homie decline. Damon Wayans is hit in living color character from the 1990s. But you also have to ask yourself,
01:00:27
Speaker
what horribly problematic thing was clever ideas. Did they think was funny that they were in that nanny, whatever. Yeah. And how is it going to fill when that joke appears on screen when you're seeing dozen people watching? Yeah. And possibly even my own mother um and she's a big fan. She's a, she's a beer to subscriber.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah. She, she will spring for tier three. She doesn't really need a benefit in those extra emotes. Uh, like those extra moments, but two, she, that's her sweet spot. That's right. I mean, she wants to know them. She's, you know, she's my most special subscriber. we We love you, mom. Thanks for listening to quest quest too. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean this,
01:01:09
Speaker
Oh man, I think there is no bigger slog than a bad game with an interface that feels like it's working ah against you right the entire time. And some of the worst adventure games unfortunately tend to come with some of the worst. I don't know if they're bad because of the interface, but certainly the interface doesn't do him any favors. right But yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think of good games with like, really, just bummer kind of interfaces are 25 already said Archer 25. Good game bummer of an interface. That's yeah ah again, yeah, a good one to return to. ah Think of others that just really are real stinkeroos. And there are a lot of stinky adventure games out there. You heard here first. I don't know. Um,
01:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to think of ones with just like interfaces that you're fighting with because that's what that's what like i I think the first journeyman project ah game is supposed to have a really unpleasant UI, but I have not played it. I believe I've only heard heard tell. Hmm. Yeah, I don't I don't know. I think I mean, it doesn't help that like, I mean, the big company sort of standardized these things. So the games were most familiar with it's like, yeah, I mean, LucasArts and Sierra neither one had a terrible interface, you know, at any point. And then a lot of the other brands were following so closely with them. part of my brain is also screaming star starship Titanic, which I also haven't played but kind of has like another case of like, Oh, ah we prefer like I want to bring back text adventure interactivity. and But I haven't played this so I can't. Yes. I just know that game. Yeah, that's my read on
01:03:03
Speaker
that one as well. Yeah. It's like, we've got to get back to this old school approach, but then we haven't done a particularly good ch job of achieving that. that were remember We're making you remember all the things you didn't like about, uh, about these older games instead, which was not our intention. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I think this is interesting because I mean, for me,
01:03:28
Speaker
I guess I don't think about an interface that much when it's working well. Like the good interfaces are the ones that feel like they are just integrated into this game. We even talked about this a little bit before stream, you know, there are some games that have almost like the, uh, you know, the, the bespoke interface that's so unique to their gameplay. Like right her story is.
01:03:52
Speaker
none of these sorts of things you're searching around on a computer interface to to unravel this case or if we call like Obra den a a adventure game, you know, where you have like a magic pocket watch this world, what I would say about her story, and I would say the same thing about Hypnospace, which we've talked about is that those are diegetic. Yes, interfaces, the Thank you, Elrond Hubbard.
01:04:20
Speaker
Yeah. this what i reveal This is a Scientology podcast. And yeah, thank you for being here. No, go ahead, please. But but they're diegetic, which is to say that you are interacting ostensibly within the world itself, that the inner interface that you're interacting with is actually like, so it's not abstracted through, like an icon or something, it's that you are using the computer system in her story.
01:04:48
Speaker
that has all the archived video or in Hypnospace, you are searching through ah the directories of the Hypnospace.
01:05:02
Speaker
Uh, so those I think are really neat. And I don't know if I can think of any other really good examples other than, of course, the other couple of Sam Barlow games. That's right. Uh, those fit in there pretty nicely. There are other games that are diegetic, like where.
01:05:21
Speaker
within you are the actions that you're using are directly correlated with the action taken in the game, but I yeah theyre got mediated through some sort of abstraction. Exactly. Wow. This, this is, this is really crunchy language we're using. I want know this is like grad school, cool talk here. yeah like Yeah, I mean, I do feel like that's like, got all the, all the Sam Barlow games. Yeah, I mean, and then it is rare to find ah other games ah that do this. Like, you know, I, I searched around a little bit about this before we, before we talked. I mean, yeah, it's like,
01:06:03
Speaker
I've seen people try to throw papers please in there, but I'm not convinced papers, please is an adventure game. I don't think I'd put it in that category. You know, mean oh no i I know it's not really an adventure. I don't feel like it is. No, I feel like it's not. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's definitely a diegetic interface in a way, but at the same time, yeah, I don't think that it's, it's in this genre. Right. Yeah, no, I wouldn't I wouldn't call papers please an adventure game. I would call it a
01:06:36
Speaker
papers, sort of, please them up. Yeah. It's a papers, please alike. Yeah. but's And we paint with a very broad brush of what's an adventure game. Uh, for instance, you know, we are willing to call all kinds of things, adventure games like sandwiches, uh, and, uh, you know, certain soups and dips, uh, like anything can be an adventure game, but not papers, please. yeah I'm sorry. I'm just Lucas Pope.
01:07:01
Speaker
We'd love to have you on sometime. You seem like a fascinating designer, but I'm sorry, Papers, Please just isn't an adventure game. What about Braid? Um, no. Uh, let's see, is it, are there any, are there any other interfaces there's, um, like the ankle kind of, uh, uh, interface where like you're clicking on like sort of to like it's, it's sort of choosing options, but it's a lot more like flexible. Uh, and it, it is mainly text. Now, what was is the, how'd you describe this? Uh,
01:07:39
Speaker
Inkel Inkel what's the name of the company Inkel they did 80 days and they did sorcery and they did um overboard. Okay. ah And they they've done a couple other games I haven't played. The ones I just listed are the ones I've played. um Yeah. And those games are like so ankles, like their first couple games were adaptations of the I believe it's Steve Jackson sorcery games like their ports of these books of these game books. So they have that sort of
01:08:16
Speaker
You know, uh, select your own adventure style. I was going to say, I mean, visual novels are essentially that too. If we want to, you know, they're typically, again, we can't yeah select your own, you know, choice, heroic journey, um, sort of stories. Uh, I mean, yeah, visual novels.
01:08:37
Speaker
generally follow that path, right? And I mean, it's it's something a little different than these other options, but certainly circumscribe quite a bit to, you know, these are these are your options. There's not really much room to to deviate from that.
01:08:52
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, I really like what, what ankle did with their games. There's a ton of twine games, as said and visual novels, uh, which would include, I would believe like Phoenix, right? Some of those other games. Yeah. Which, which has that.
01:09:11
Speaker
It is interesting kind of thinking now to console games is that, you know, some of them just tried to straight port those, those interfaces like the scooby doo games that have a scum style interface in them and, and so on.
01:09:27
Speaker
the like King's Quest 5 on the and NES, which has the SCI like point and click style. And it works flawlessly with a control pad. You know, I really like to play that one though with the power pad because when you're running and grams moving across the screen, there is just nothing more invigorating than, you know, having to solve puzzles through physical activity. could Play it with ah the power glove.
01:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, so cool. I get robbed the robot there and he does all the Cedric parts ah for me. So yeah, I mean, ah he drops. Yeah, it's weird. The only games he works with her gyromite and Kings quest five people don't know that ah that he does. There's the only two that he really supports. But man, if you get Rob going, he loves Kings quest five. Yeah.
01:10:18
Speaker
What was his is that robot operating buddy? What does Rob stand for? to Come on. Do you think I know? Yeah. You seem like you'd be a a big Rob fan. You don't say a I would listen. I'm we we did not. I think I think it was called the action pack. We had the one that just came with the light gun. Oh, man.
01:10:40
Speaker
Yeah. Duck hunt is an adventure game. The verb is the gun. Hogan's alley. That's an adventure game. Lots of adventure games on that. Yes. Mega Man. That's an adventure game. Mega Man 2 is not. Yeah. Only the odd number of Mega Man are adventure games. Point and click adventures. Yeah. A lot of people don't know that. Yeah. Heavy Man 2.
01:11:08
Speaker
That is the incredible UI of a slingshot that you tortured. Now, do a lot of other games use that? Like where you take maybe the most iconic figure in adventure gaming history and just irritate the shit out of them with a slingshot? Has that been used anywhere else?
01:11:29
Speaker
And I'm sure, I'm sure there's some, I'm sure there's some freak out there that has a game on itch where they're like, Hey, check this out. We're using the famous Pac-Man two interface, a slingshot where you torture the protagonist in trying to manipulate him. I mean,
01:11:48
Speaker
It'd be more fun to do it like emotionally and psychologically, like to really just, you know, gaslight ah famous, like maybe gaslight Frogger into crossing a road or something like that. You know, like what why do we have to do this with a slingshot? Can't we just manipulate some beloved? Dig, dig in my con. Mr. Dew, those are all adventure games. Well, Mr. I mean, Mr. Dew has an adventure game verb writing his name. Yeah. um Mr. her so
01:12:23
Speaker
but but Ben, I feel like we have at least 45 more minutes of this yeah to go. I mean, like you have any other great bits? No, no. ah You know, i've I've used them all.
01:12:38
Speaker
I mean, I feel like. The adventure game interface. Yeah, I mean it. It is such a part of the story of how this genre evolved over time is how the interfaces themselves evolve. But I mean, I think what's nice about adventure games in 2025 now that they've been dead for 30 years or whatever. Yeah, they've been dead. The last game was the last, the last, the longest journey. And then, uh, and then we've just been playing those games ever since. Yeah. Yeah. Ever since adventure games died. The good news is they've been reincarnated with a lot of diversity of interface. Yeah. And ah can that is fun. I mean, it's, it's nice that if you love an old text parser style. You've got games like the Crimson diamond. You've got games coming up like Cascadia quest that take that, you know, classic parser and and play around with auto complete and other things of that sort. If you prefer something that's more of a Lucas arts style, Lord knows there are lots of games out there. Are you telling me that people are saying that a game is like a Lucas arts classic? Are you kidding me?
01:13:51
Speaker
I would say you even say some of these games, like my favorite Lucas hurts games that I love as a child. Yeah. And I would describe some of these as love letters to those old Lucas arts adventure games like Monkey Island. No way. You know, there are people out there who are inspired by Monkey Island. They're trying to make games that in a lot of ways, you know, reflect back on that sort of comedy adventure, even Day of the Tentacle, believe it or not. There are people out there who are saying that's crazy.
01:14:19
Speaker
And yeah, you won't believe this, but there are even a number of fan projects based on Maniac Mansion. ah All of them in development for the last 10 to 20 years, some of them coming out eventually. So I mean, yeah, this is, you can get kind of a wild variety
Podcast Wrap-Up and Listener Engagement
01:14:38
Speaker
at this point. and now Now, hold on, Jess. Hold on. ja Yeah. I kind of said,
01:14:44
Speaker
I, in the middle of this, I kind of gave what my conclusion was, which is that I feel that I, I prefer the polls. Is it for you? Is it the verb coin? Is that it? Is that the best one? And specifically the curse of monkey Island verb coin? Is that it forever? never even I feel like you I don't know, like Socratic method of me. And it was only like a one step Socratic method, which is like, that's not that massive for you or me. ah Like you asked me one question and my entire argument collapsed. Like play those dialogues would have been like a short pamphlet if that's what if that's what Socrates is able to pull off.
01:15:21
Speaker
Yeah, but you you like literally said, is it just that you like person, Mikey? I was like, yeah, you're right. That's all it is. So maybe, maybe now I don't know. Yeah. it's but That's what our thumbnail for this on YouTube will be, you know, uh, decaf, Jenna, absolutely destroyed. Woke college professor destroyed by a single question, like a photo of you with your, your hands over your face and me like pointing and laughing.
01:15:48
Speaker
Yes, that's exactly college professor destroyed by one question. You know, I'm curious now I'm googling this again, because I do love the monkey. I mean, maybe at the end of the day, what do I love? Maybe I just that's the question I think that we're all asking or ourselves constantly. What do I love? That's I mean, one of the essential questions of our lives. Yeah. And I think maybe the answer is,
01:16:16
Speaker
I'm always going to be someone who just loves a text parser. And I have to say, as someone, you know, a big part of stair quest was always the team, not to make everything about stair quest, but here I go. ah Was the team developing ah for a text parser because I just love those sorts of games. And it was so fun to get to write one like to especially to write such a unnecessarily large one. There was just a unnecessarily in total. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. You know what I was just looking up on the side too is there are some vendors on Etsy that sell gold cast verb coins. I was looking at that. I was looking at them. There used to be a seller who was selling one that like you could get in 24 karat gold that was like
01:17:03
Speaker
$5,000. And you know, I've looked at it and I've thought to myself, boy, I'd love to have a real gold verb coin. But you know, yeah, if listeners out there want to get me a Christmas gift next year, you know, just a nice little verb point. But yeah, maybe at the end of the day, I just love typing stuff in because that's what I did as a kid. And that felt The same way that wandering around in a Sierra game made me feel like I could go anywhere and do anything. So specifically like a Sierra in a like a text parser in a Sierra game. Yeah, especially a text parser i'd be of the two options Sierra did in their heyday.
01:17:38
Speaker
I love an SCI zero. I liked, you know, when I was a kid, I didn't know these were different engines or anything. I said, you know, there's the text parser that freezes the screen, SCI zero, and then the one that didn't, which was AGI. And immediately, I like the idea of one that froze the screen was very satisfied too, because I remember I used to have like preload commands before I'd walk onto a screen if I knew there was going to be a time sensitive Do you think the person that came up with that, it freezes the screen? Like, what do you think that day was like when, you know, someone walked in and said, Hey, how about when you start to type a command, it freezes the screen. Do you think everybody like just turned like, you know, they were in a big open office, like cubicles and stuff and everybody just turned around and said, what?
01:18:26
Speaker
watch why He was probably stoned for it. Like they probably started hurling staplers and stuff at him. And then they're like, actually, that's a pretty good idea. I wish we hadn't done that to Bill. i Yeah. ah I thought you were going in the other direction with stoned. It's like, hey, man, you ever think it freezes typing and freeze the screen? There was like, yeah cool, man. Yeah.
01:18:53
Speaker
Hey, Ben, you mentioned that. Could we write down a note for our fledgling development company? Cheech and Chong Adventure Game. All right. Yeah. Copyright us. I just mailed it to myself. ah Copyright and copy written. ah You can't steal that.
01:19:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, that'd be a big hit. And I think we could probably get them. They seem cheap. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people call it cheap and strong. Now, i do you know the listeners don't have the advantage of what I have, which is that I get to see Jess's video. He is.
01:19:35
Speaker
like for you fell back at his chair, you don't get to see what I see. Then I almost get the impression we don't have anything else to say about this topic. i I think we have at least five more hours. But you know what, we'll stop there to this off street. I mean, that's for the patrons. Yeah, for the patrons only. Um, all right. Well,
01:19:59
Speaker
Thank you everybody for listening to this edition of QuestQuest. If you have any ah request quests for us, ah shoot us an email at questquestpodcast at gmail dot.com or yeah if there's like a ah UI or something that you want to talk about or you ah like that that we didn't mention or or one that you love ah that you'd like to give a shout out, email us for that.
01:20:25
Speaker
Uh, give us a review or, you know, let a friend know so, uh, people can, can find out about this, this gosh darn podcast. And one of the best ways to spread the word about this is listening to it without headphones in public transit. We've been getting a lot of feedback from that, just like loudly playing this over your phone speaker on a plane where people can't get away. There's no stop. They can just hop off.
01:20:51
Speaker
I mean, there's no better way to get new people listening. ah So please do that. And if people say stop, just say, hey, I'm just playing quest quest, man. Well, you don't need to do um just plain quest quest, man. And then you do like to hang 10 sign and then they do it back to you. And then you've made a new friend. And that's actually one of the other great things about life is making new friends. So Uh, do all of that and you'll make new friends. And then also join us next week for quest quest. Uh, when we are going to discuss, uh, the exciting new game, Freddy, the fish for adults. Join us then.