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Episode 156: Sabbats of Anciet Civilizations pt. 2
738 Plays1 month ago
Welcome back, Witches! 🔮 This week, we’re diving deeper into the shadows of ancient civilizations. In part two of our Sabbats of Ancient Civilizations series, we're uncovering the mysteries of Lemuria—a festival honoring restless spirits—and confronting the chilling rites of Carthaginian child sacrifice. We’re exploring how ancient peoples honored their dead, navigated grief, and sought favor from the gods through rituals both beautiful and brutal. So get in loser, grab your tea, light a candle for protection, and step into the ancient past with us. 🕯️🌑
We would be forever thankful if you left our podcast a 5-Star review. If you really loved the show and want more Get in Loser content, check out our Supercast & Buy Me a Coffee links below. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram @GetinWitches, on TikTok @weredoingwitchcraft, or email us at weredoingwitchcraft@gmail.com. You can support our show through our links below.
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Music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio- The Witch
References:
- City of Oxford (2014). Ancient Carthaginians really did sacrifice their children. City of Oxford. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children
- Daily History.Org (n.d.). Did the Carthaginians Really Practice Human Child Sacrifice. Daily History.Org. https://www.dailyhistory.org/Did_the_Carthaginians_Really_Practice_Human_Child_Sacrifice
- DHWTY (2019). Gods of Carthage and the Punic Power House of Baal Hammon and Tanit. Ancient Origins. https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa/baal-hammon-and-tanit-0012136
- History Skills (n.d.). The Truth About Child Sacrifice in Ancient Carthage. History Skills. https://www.historyskills.com/classroom/ancient-history/carthage-child-sacrifice/
- Robin Ngo (2020). Did the Carthaginians Really Practice Infant Sacrifice? Biblical Archaeology Society. https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/did-the-carthaginians-really-practice-infant-sacrifice/
- Maev Kennedy (2014). Carthaginians Sacrificed Own Children, Archaeologists Say. The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginians-sacrificed-own-children-study
- Laurentine, Camilla. The Lemuria: Folk Magic and Ghosts in Ancient Rome. (2015). Witches & Pagans. https://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/do-ut-des/the-lemuria.html
- Huang, Zoe and Avery Benbow. Lemuria: The Ancient Roman Halloween. The Mary Word. https://www.themaryword.com/post/lemuria-the-ancient-roman-halloween
- Silver, Carly. Lemuria the Ancient Roman Day of the Dead. (2018). https://www.thoughtco.com/lemuria-ancient-roman-day-of-dead-117915
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Transcript
Introduction to Witchcraft and Ancient Sabbats
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you feel drawn to learn more about witchcraft and the occult but feel lost on where to start? Then welcome to Get In, Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft, a podcast all about what it means to be a witch and where to get started on your journey.
00:00:12
Speaker
Join us as we navigate through various witchy topics and share what we've learned about the craft. So get in, witches, as we travel back in time to explore two ancient sabbats, the ancient Roman festival Lemuria and the Carthaginian practice of child sacrifice.
Birthday Plans and Arcade Adventures
00:00:38
Speaker
My birthday's this week. Yay! Yay!
00:00:57
Speaker
my birthdays are sweet ya yeah thank You know what you're doing? You said Mike's going to surprise you, right? Yeah. I don't know exactly what we're doing, but – because he's just like, well, what do you want to do? don't know. This birthday is kind of weird because it's like – usually every year i'm like, oh, we we have set plans you or something where i'm just like, I want to do this. But there's nothing that I'm just like, I just want to do stuff, but I want you to figure it out.
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah. I don't want to make any decisions. just want to be surprised. But I don't want to use my brain. Thank you. Right. Yeah. Like, just surprise me. I just – I don't want to have to do anything. So just surprise me So I don't know exactly what we're doing or what we're eating.
00:01:39
Speaker
But I did tell him, like, I do want to basically kind of go on a shopping spree and just buy whatever I want. And so we'll see what happens with that. But we're taking – since she was born on my birthday, since we share a birthday, um taking her to round one on our actual birthday.
00:02:01
Speaker
um So that's just going to be incredibly overstimulating. And then come home from there and probably take a nap. And then we'll probably celebrate my birthday this coming weekend. So is round one like a Arcade or gaming? It's kind of, yeah. it's like a I've never been there, but I i think it's kind of like a and like an arcade on crack where where every floor there's something different. The one floor I think is bowling and then there's laser tag and there's skating and there's video games. sounds...
00:02:37
Speaker
it sounds Amazing if you're a kid. It sounds terrible as an adult. so yeah I'm just thinking of like all the noises and like so many people.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah. It's going to be – because at first she was wanting to have like an actual birthday party there. And I'm just like, I cannot imagine – Like if we were to do that, first of all, it would have to be a a set number of kids.
00:03:01
Speaker
But then it would have to be very clear on the invitation. You are responsible for your own kid. You're not dropping. There will be no dropping off and coming back later situation. Like, cause I will not be doing that.
00:03:12
Speaker
um But then I was like, well, you know, her birthday, like, well, our birthday falls also during a Japanese holiday week um that the kids are out of school. And so,
00:03:25
Speaker
everywhere is going to be packed and ah the weekends are especially more packed.
Busy Weekend and Transition to Ancient Sabbats
00:03:31
Speaker
So I'm just like, uh, we're going to have to do it on a Thursday, like on the actual day yeah and get there as soon as it opens because it's probably still going to be incredibly packed, but ah hopefully less packed first thing in the morning. We'll see.
00:03:49
Speaker
so it's going to be rough. It'll be fun now. Well, and then you can come home and take a nap and then Relax and not deal with noises and children and 80 million people. Right.
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah. And then, yeah, so we'll see. And then I forgot as well, like this coming weekend, like next weekend going to be so busy because i forgot my friend.
00:04:14
Speaker
So he's in a band and they're opening for We the Kings at the – they're having a Schwab camp festival or whatever ah Saturday. And he I remember he had asked me, he's like, oh, what are you doing um the first week of April? And I'm like, it's my birthday. And he's like, oh, you can celebrate it while watching me perform and open up for We the Kings. And I'm like, oh, shit. I forgot I agreed to do that. So – We might be doing that too on Saturday. So i don't know.
00:04:42
Speaker
We'll see what
Exploring Lemuria: Rituals and Mythology
00:04:43
Speaker
happens. At least that'll probably be fun though. Yeah. Yeah. It should be fun. As long as they're good. Right. Yeah. He's pretty good. Like they've already – like they've recorded ah song um or like a single or whatever and they've been working with. But he's like active duty and everybody in the band is active duty. So it can't be like their full-time yeah But they play a lot at some of the clubs and stuff around here. They're actually really good. So – it'll be It'll be good. Yeah.
00:05:12
Speaker
It'll be good. Like, just fun, relaxing. mean Versus, like, okay. but Right? Yeah. build Absolutely. Yeah.
00:05:25
Speaker
um But, unfortunately Samantha, we are not talking about her birthday all episode. Right. Yeah. Unfortunately not. Although, she would probably prefer it.
00:05:38
Speaker
Mm-hmm. This is her time. What are we talking about? We are talking about some ancient sabbats. Yeah. Yeah. The verse keeps going out. I don't – hopefully doesn't do this all episode. Luckily, my piece is short, so in hopefully we'll just make it through.
00:05:59
Speaker
yeah It'll be fine. Spoiler alert. Not disclaimer. Spoiler alert. My – Peace is very short. I really thought there would be a lot more information on this and there wasn't, but it's good information. So there's that at least.
00:06:16
Speaker
And mine is pretty long. So you have a really good mix on this episode of a shorter Sabbath and a very long one. So it'll be perfect. oh Well, I'll jump right into it.
00:06:29
Speaker
And i'm proud i will tell you because I've already told Samantha. So just so you guys know, I'm probably going to fuck this up. And I tried practicing saying it over and over again. And in my brain, the U and the E are mixed. And so instead of saying Lemuria, I keep saying Lumeria.
00:06:46
Speaker
So if I do, my bad. I didn't mean to. But I'm talking about Lemuria. nope Lemuria, Lumeria. i'd See, I'm going to do this all episode. I can feel it.
00:07:01
Speaker
It reminds me of like Plumeria, like from Bath and Body Works or whatever. I'm wondering if that's where my brain is going. Because it just automatically is like, no, this Lumeria. And I'm like, it's definitely not.
00:07:15
Speaker
But Lemuria. And this is an ancient Roman festival that was held annually on what would be considered 9th. 11th and 13th today.
00:07:27
Speaker
And they held it all three days. And I don't know why i couldn't find out why it was only like the 9th, 11th and 13th and not just the 9th through the 13th. No idea.
00:07:38
Speaker
So you guys will be left wondering just like me. These days were considered when Romans believed the lemurs or spirits were out and about. And it's also important to note that this is not a time dedicated to those that would have been considered like good spirits or those that were given proper burial rites.
00:07:58
Speaker
But it was a time period dedicated to those spirits that were angry, restless, or that died with unfinished business or by violent means. So while many festivals and practices that surround spirits and ghosts were centered um on those of our ancestors, this one was focused on those that were confused, angry, and either stuck by choosing to stay and essentially haunt your property.
00:08:24
Speaker
So not necessarily ghosts that you were tied to. Lemuria was a moment within the year that everyone was supposed to stop and acknowledge that as a collective, people have failed others.
00:08:36
Speaker
And in the and like in that failure, the Lemures, or spirits, were still willing to remain and help us after death. It was basically a time period that people could make amends on behalf of the larger society.
00:08:51
Speaker
So all that to essentially say Lemuria is a festival that's centered around the dead that have no relation to us, but that we are still obligated to give them what they are due since in life they had belonged to our own civilization.
00:09:07
Speaker
The festival was said to have gotten its name from Remuria or Remus, who was one of the brothers that founded Rome. Remus was killed by his twin brother Romulus, and it was said that after his murder he appeared as a ghost and he requested his brother's friends to make future generations honor him, leading Lemuria, which is essentially just a day to commemorate, interact with, or deter spirits.
00:09:35
Speaker
So the Romans believed that they had to try and keep the dead happy by giving them what they're owed. And they also like needed to drive them away though. So to do this, they were required to be unfettered, which meant they had to be knotless, which I'm still not sure on what the knots were.
00:09:55
Speaker
like I don't know if this meant belts or whatever, but like it was knotless, ringless, and shoeless. So that they they basically just like walked barefoot and threw black beans over their shoulder at night, apparently.
00:10:09
Speaker
But they couldn't wear shoes. um They couldn't have like rings on their fingers. And then... I still am confused about the knots, but apparently these things would stop the flow.
00:10:21
Speaker
So ghosts or spirits wouldn't be able to like flow away from you, which is what you wanted during this night. So as for the question of why black beans, I also couldn't find a defin a definitive answer to the like why they were used.
00:10:37
Speaker
But essentially, they were thought to have been the most basic of offerings that could be used to appease the restless dead. Black beans are noted to have been used um to be thrown on graves as an offering as well as for their use in folk magic, where they could silence harmful gossip during the festival Feralia.
00:10:58
Speaker
um And it was also noted that certain priests couldn't touch black beans. But again, i have no clue why. Like, they're just like black beans, but real no information on it. So. Yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
Were they cooked black beans or like. I don't know. Not cooked. We're just like tossing black beans, I guess. Right. From a soup or something. Like, yeah whatever, you know, just.
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah. Throwing them around. Yeah. The only like solid information that I did find, um one source did mention that there was a cult called Mains and Dead who used black beans as a traditional offering. But they stated that they, like the person that wrote this article, couldn't find a tie from this cult to the Romans.
00:11:42
Speaker
So like, who really knows? What I was able to find when I went down the Mains and Dead rabbit hole was that Ovid categorized the dead into manes or the deified dead. So they considered them like godly dead and the Tassidian fairy.
00:12:00
Speaker
And that was considered the silent dead and the silent dead were considered malicious and harmful. I'm not sure if this is where like this cold stems from, but Ovid seems to be the connection there.
00:12:13
Speaker
ah Many scholars today actually theorize that the modern All Saints Day is derived from the Lemuria festival. As far as like any like tie-ins, mythology, like deities, I could not find anything tied to this particular festival. But I did find more on the ritual of throwing black beans.
00:12:40
Speaker
So this was done at midnight and this practice is actually documented Fosti by Ovid. So the practice also fell heavily on what they called the paterfamilias or the head male of the household.
00:12:57
Speaker
And so basically he would have to get out of bed at midnight with bare feet and make the sign of the Manofika, which I guess is also known as the Fig Hand.
00:13:08
Speaker
And I also could not find a whole lot on this, but apparently it was just used during this time to ward off evil. And this would help to drive off any spirits that he met.
00:13:21
Speaker
And he would then have to like wash his hands in spring water to remove any impurities, turn away from the spring water, and then throw black beans over his shoulder saying the words, with these beans I throw, i redeem me and mine.
00:13:36
Speaker
He had to say this nine times without looking back. And a couple of sources noted that the practice was done wholly in silence. But for the majority, they noted that participants had to like recite phrases to complete the ritual.
00:13:50
Speaker
It's believed that the spirits would follow him collecting the black beans. And then um he again had to wash his hands at the end and join the rest of the household to bang together brass pots, asking the spirits to leave the house by saying ancestral spirits depart.
00:14:08
Speaker
And only after this ritual is complete is it then safe to look behind himself. And the Romans believed that the dead, especially the restless dead, were not welcome to stay within the mortal Romans' home after having like been given what they were due, so being given the black beans.
00:14:25
Speaker
And so after this practice was complete, the spirits were expected to have been banished from the home and the land. And that is this festival. That's the whole thing. The whole thing. It's done three days. like So three nights, the 9th, 11th, and 13th at midnight, the male head of the household gets up, does this ritual, and that's it.
00:14:49
Speaker
Interesting. That is literally all I could find. i found 900 websites that all said the same thing. and Right. Yeah. And YouTube videos. And I didn't find anything on TikTok. I was like literally trying to go down any rabbit hole. It would give me nothing.
Carthaginian Child Sacrifice: History and Debate
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:08
Speaker
and So sorry, guys, it's very short, but at least I felt like it was hilarious, kind of like I'm just imagining like, could you imagine like growing up?
00:15:21
Speaker
You're a kid and like your dad waking up at midnight just being like, God damn it. I gotta go wash my hands and throw these fucking beans over my shoulder. right If I don't, grandpa's going to come back and fucking kill us all. yeah or some random ghost that we don't even know.
00:15:37
Speaker
right Yeah. Here, take your beans and get the fuck out. I'm trying to sleep. Yeah. And you know, there are some people that just like – They hurried up and washed their feet and just threw the beans at, and really, like you know, they weren't really trying.
00:15:54
Speaker
get the fuck away. and then they went back to bed. Yeah. So. That's interesting, though. Yeah, that's, yeah, the Roman Day of the Dead, apparently. Yeah.
00:16:06
Speaker
Well. Now we're going to cover something not quite as funny um yeah and a little bit longer. um i I'm going to talk about the Carthaginian child sacrifice.
00:16:20
Speaker
And this isn't necessarily a specific day where this is was held or specific like celebration or festival, um but it was a practice more so.
00:16:32
Speaker
And this is one of the most debated topics in ancient history. There are many Greek and Roman accounts that describe the sacrifices in horrifying detail, which we will get to in a bit later. But a lot of modern historians and archaeologists question just how widespread the practice was of the child sacrifice.
00:16:52
Speaker
So additionally, most of what we know about child sacrifices and writing comes from Greek and Roman writers like Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch, and Tertullian.
00:17:03
Speaker
all of whom were hostile to Carthage. So it's not a stretch to assume that some of the evidence was exaggerated. And as we well know, the victors write the history and the Romans have an extensive history of portraying their enemies as barbaric to contrast their own society. And we've seen this and talked about this already on the podcast with just some other societies like the Druids.
00:17:26
Speaker
So looking into some of the background and history on Carthage in general, because I feel like this is in important to the Sabbath. Carthage was an ancient Phoenician city-state located in what is now Tunisia.
00:17:40
Speaker
The Carthaginian people were said to be a mix of Phoenician culture where most of its people descended, it included influences from the Numidian and Northern African cultures as well as Greek and Roman influences as well.
00:17:56
Speaker
The Carthaginians were descended from the Semitic Bronze Age people who were from the Levant region, which is now present-day Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, and Syria.
00:18:07
Speaker
And it was founded around 9th century BCE, and Carthage grew into a very powerful maritime empire, dominating trade in the western Mediterranean area.
00:18:19
Speaker
and They were known for their navy and wealth, and during this time, they were Rome's biggest rivals. Carthage clashed with Rome in the Punic Wars, which lasted from about 264 to 146 BCE.
00:18:32
Speaker
This war would eventually lead to the destruction of the Carthage Empire in 146 BCE. b c However, with what has been written about Carthage by classical historians, there is not a ton of archaeological evidence to back up the claims of the child sacrifice because the regions needing to be excavated are the areas that have experienced ongoing turmoil, wars, and other conflicts throughout history. So it's very difficult to actually find archaeological evidence to back up a lot of the stories. But there are some archaeological evidence um that I will talk about.
00:19:07
Speaker
So as far as a religion goes, the Carthaginians followed the Canaanite and Phoenician pantheon and strictly followed all of the rituals within that pantheon. And it's important to note here that the Canaanites and the Phoenicians were not a unified empire, but at best more of a, quote, a loose confederacy of independent city-states.
00:19:29
Speaker
So while religious beliefs would be similar from city to city, certain deities took precedence depending on the city. The Canaanites followed a polytheistic religion and were literate, but not a lot of information has survived about their texts relating to child sacrifice.
00:19:46
Speaker
However, the Israelites who were related to the Canaanites through language and culture discussed child sacrifice a lot in the Old Testament. at least a dozen times in passages from Leviticus, Deuteronomy, to Kings, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.
00:20:03
Speaker
And it's often mentioned as a condemned practice in the Old Testament that was associated with neighboring cultures like the Canaanites and the Phoenicians. And even though the practice was strictly prohibited by Yahweh, the Israelites did practice child sacrifice from time to time.
00:20:19
Speaker
There are also burial grounds in Carthage that have been long linked to child sacrifice, which again, I will discuss soon, but outside of Carthage, there have been similar burial grounds found in other Phoenician settlements, such as in Sardinia and in Malta, which suggests that there is a widespread practice of sacrificial burning, whether they were as extreme as what the Greeks and Romans referenced, or whether they were done occasionally as an act of like extreme devotion during a crisis.
00:20:49
Speaker
So as far as the gods that would be associated with child sacrifice, there are a few. The first of which, um you could go back and forth on whether or not this was a god. There's evidence to assume that it that this deity was an actual deity or whether or not it just was a term for a sacrificial act of child sacrifice. But anyway, this would be the term m'lok or melquart.
00:21:18
Speaker
And this is the god most often associated with child sacrifice and was the primary god of the city of Tyre if we were looking at it from a deity standpoint. This is important because Carthage was founded during the reign of King Ithabal I of Tyre in the 9th century BCE.
00:21:36
Speaker
And so if you're looking at it from a deity perspective, this would be an important god. This deity is connected to child sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible, in Leviticus, 2 Kings, and in Jeremiah. And there is debate that he wasn't actually a god, but just a term for the act of child sacrifice.
00:21:56
Speaker
I've also heard this... um specific name tied to demons? Like growing up in the church, there was a demon with the same name. So I wonder.
00:22:08
Speaker
kind Absolutely. Well, and I think it kind of goes back to this whole belief throughout time that demonized this entire culture, which I'm not saying that there's I mean, because clearly if they were sacrificing children, like that's a fucking problem.
00:22:25
Speaker
but like Yeah. So it could be that too, where maybe this is the name of a demon or also this is the name that they, since they demonize their entire culture. Mm-hmm.
00:22:37
Speaker
It kind of goes hand in hand with that. So who knows? But um there's a lot of different varying accounts of this could be this or this could be that. Who knows? Because we don't have a ton of information.
00:22:49
Speaker
Yeah. And if that noise is coming through, it's windy outside and we have things that cover our windows called Roloddins. It's like rattling like crazy back here. So don't know if you're... Oh, I don't hear it, but it might... Okay. I'm hoping it's not coming through.
00:23:05
Speaker
Hopefully not. It's so noisy. So um the second deity is Baal Haman, and this is the Phoenician equivalent of Cronus. He was the god of fertility and considered the king of the gods.
00:23:19
Speaker
Classical sources cite that Carthaginians sacrificed hundreds of children to Cronus slash Baal after suffering a major defeat to Agothocles and the Greeks in 310 BCE.
00:23:32
Speaker
And so this was written about by Diodorus, and details from this entry that he wrote about talks about how the Carthaginians thought that Baal had turned against them because they had deviated from the traditional practice of sacrificing their own noble-born children, and over time had secretly been purchasing and raising other people's children to use the sacrifices instead.
00:23:56
Speaker
The Carthaginians believed that once this was known, this angered Baal, and they believed that their defeat was due to divine punishment. And so because of this, they desperately tried to appease their god by sacrificing 200 noble children to regain divine favor, and another 300 individuals chose to just sacrifice themselves voluntarily.
00:24:19
Speaker
So yeah, which is wild, right? And so I'm going to get into a little bit, um i guess, I think maybe even just after I talk about the deities, the toffet where a lot of urns and stuff were found and the archaeological evidence that has been found to support that there was child sacrifice.
00:24:41
Speaker
um But in This area where these urns were found, inscriptions on urns have been translated to gifts to Baal. And so this kind of helps to support that not only was there child sacrifice, but they were doing it in honor of this specific deity.
00:24:59
Speaker
Another god that is often associated with child sacrifice is Tanit. And she was a consort to Baal Haman, and she was the mother goddess who governed fertility, the moon, and war.
00:25:14
Speaker
And Urns and the Carthaginian Tophet bear inscriptions dedicating sacrifices to her as well. Some scholars believe that infant sacrifices were made to her for fertility blessings, ensuring favor for future children, which is fucking wild to me.
00:25:29
Speaker
I don't understand that concept because it's like if you have a child, why would you then sacrifice them to have a child? To have child. Another children? Like, it doesn't make sense. it Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:39
Speaker
Like just raise the one you have. I don't know. really And she is sometimes seen as a protective figure in, in death rituals. So sacrifices could have been made in her honor to return children to her care.
00:25:53
Speaker
which again seems kind of weird, but what do I know? and then lastly, Reshep, who is the god of the plague, the underworld, and war, is also associated with well-being and fertility.
00:26:07
Speaker
This deity is not strongly linked to child sacrifice. However, because he has similarities with the gods who most often were linked to child sacrifice, they kind of throw him in this boat too.
00:26:18
Speaker
And he was associated with war and fire. So burnt offerings were also tied to him as well. So moving on to the ritual process, classical historians discussed what the ritual process looked like.
00:26:33
Speaker
And who knows how accurate this is? Because again, this is something that was written by ancient Romans and Greeks. Diodorus describes a bronze statue of Balhamon with outstretched hands that sloped down and children would be placed on the hands of the statue and roll from the hands into a fiery pit to be burned alive.
00:26:55
Speaker
And other writings discuss that there were ceremonies conducted that would begin with prayers, hymns, and dances, and that the child would be adorned in special ceremonial attire and then placed on a raised altar where a pyre would then be lit, consuming the child, and the ashes would then be collected and placed in an urn.
00:27:14
Speaker
And if I was a betting person, i would assume that this is probably if child sacrifices were happening, this is probably how it happened. As opposed to being placed on a statue and then rolling down into a fiery pit. That seems a little bit too much. You know what I mean?
00:27:32
Speaker
yeah So as far as archaeological evidence, we do have some, and this is what is known as the tophet. The tophet is a term that modern scholars use generally for the known places of ancient Semitic child sacrifice.
00:27:50
Speaker
The Tophic of Carthage is the main archaeological site linked to child sacrifice and the largest tophic known to exist. The site contains thousands of urns with cremated remains of infants and small animals dating from about the 8th century BCE to the Roman destruction of Carthage after the Punic Wars in 146 BCE.
00:28:11
Speaker
Some of the urns contain inscriptions referring to the urn as an offering for MLK, which scholars have linked to Moloch, one of the deities that I mentioned earlier that could possibly be a demon, who knows, or not a deity at all, who knows? martin luther Not Martin Luther King. Not Martin Luther King. And this is also the deity that is linked to child sacrifice in the Bible.
00:28:38
Speaker
Additionally, the Semitic root for m l k not Martin Luther King Jr., um also meant, quote unquote, to offer. So it might not even be tying Moloch to any of the offerings. It could just literally mean to offer. Yeah. Yeah. so dedications from the children's parents to the gods are also inscribed on the slabs of stone above their remains, ending with the explanation that the gods or God or whoever they're you know dedicating the sacrifice to heard their voice and blessed them.
00:29:12
Speaker
Additionally, some of the remains show evidence of burning, which supports the idea that they were sacrificial victims and did not die of natural deaths. But these could be explained by an infant dying a natural death, which is not uncommon during this time period, and the bodies being cremated after death.
00:29:30
Speaker
It's hard for us in today's society to really understand the motivation though for child sacrifice, but considering the high mortality rate for children in the ancient world, it could be sensible for a parent to maybe not be too attached to their child that may or may not make it past their first birthday or even to their first birthday.
00:29:48
Speaker
And especially if ancient child sacrifice was a realistic possibility, there could be the belief that what was best for the community outweighed the life of a singular child. So, I mean, I'm not saying that I agree with child sacrifice by any means, but I'm just trying to like allow us to put ourselves in the shoes of people that may have lived during this time who maybe participated in child sacrifice.
00:30:12
Speaker
We briefly discussed sacrifices in general on the podcast. And when we've talked about different ancient so civilizations and deities, one of the things that we know to be true is that often when you are presenting an offering or a sacrifice to a god or a goddess, the sickly, weak, or dead were not used.
00:30:32
Speaker
Most often, as seen with food and animals, it was a portion of the best stock, your first bite, et cetera. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense for this ancient civilization to sacrifice their dying, dead, or weak children to a god. And considering the inscriptions found at the sites, if the children at the Tophet sites were children who passed naturally, i doubt a parent would consider their dead child an answered prayer.
00:30:59
Speaker
So as I mentioned earlier, additional toffets have been found from the same period as the Carthaginian toffet, and these were located in Sardinia and Malta. So really, there is a lot of evidence here that suggests that child sacrifices were happening.
00:31:18
Speaker
So as far as just tying everything up, though, and the big takeaways here. Scholars such as Josephine Quinn argue that the Carthaginians did practice child sacrifice, but it was not as extreme as the Greek and Romans claimed.
00:31:32
Speaker
Other scholars believe that the tophet represents a burial ground for children who died young and not necessarily a site of mass sacrifice, but we will never know the answer to that. DNA evidence of the remains of the urns found at the Tophet and other burial grounds is ongoing to determine if there was a link. So if they can discover if it was a sacrifice, whether the children were selected based on things like their status or other factors. And you know like with advancements in DNA, they've been able to find what part of the world someone would have lived in based on
00:32:08
Speaker
what they consumed, so they might be able to date some of that back as well. The big question here is, did the Carthaginians engage in and child sacrifice? Considering the sheer amount of writings about sacrifice outside of the Greeks and Romans, but also included in the Old Testament, probably, but it most likely was not as widespread as described in classical sources.
00:32:32
Speaker
And at the end of the day, we have to remember that history is written by victors and men. Many descriptions of the practice and the gods associated with child sacrifice came from Greeks, Romans, and Hebrews, all of which may have exaggerated and distorted the Carthaginian rituals to justify their own beliefs of moral superiority and justifying their own wars.
00:32:54
Speaker
So with that being said, that is the Carthaginian child sacrifice practice. Sabbath, whatever you want to call it, probably happened, probably it not exactly what we understand of it. And it's probably, there's going to be a lot of unanswered questions, I think, for just history in and of itself and for forevermore, because really it's it's going to be difficult for us living in today's society to be able to put ourselves in those shoes and to understand
00:33:29
Speaker
if it was happening, how it happened and the why, but then also we don't, we're never going to know the full story because again, history is written by the victors. So yeah.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yeah. Isn't that interesting though? It was interesting. Still wild. Yeah.
Reflections and Episode Conclusion
00:33:48
Speaker
I wish there was like more history on it. Cause it is, it is so intriguing.
00:33:53
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like we're going to run into that every time we do one of these ancient sabbats because like like mine, I was like so excited and I was like going down every rabbit hole I could possibly come across. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm not getting any more information. Right.
00:34:08
Speaker
Yeah, I guess this is it. So yeah I guess we're done. Yeah. I also, like you were saying with the sacrifice thing, like how normally it's supposed to be like the best is what you're given. You're not you're not giving like the weak the sick.
00:34:24
Speaker
And so like in this instance, I feel like what they're doing is giving the best of their week because like when you think of children, you don't think of like – this like strong, like crazy, like best thing the planet. Like, right. it's not like the top tier, like children are supposed to be like protected and helped and, you know, cause they're, they're not these like, they're fragile. Yeah.
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so like literally this whole thing, they're just like, here's the best of our weakest. Enjoy. Yeah. But also like looking at it from the standpoint of a child, like I guess not from the standpoint of a child, but like looking at it in that the terms of a child, that's like you' your purest.
00:35:06
Speaker
So maybe, i don't know. And it could be that. Like it could be a... a purity thing. It could also be, you know, sitting there thinking, well, this is their most prized possession because you're passing down your name. But then at the same token, like you're probably not super...
00:35:24
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe it's not your most prized possession because, again, who's to say if this child is going to even make it to their first birthday? And if you live ah in a society where child sacrifice is a normal thing, yeah probably wouldn't be super connected to your child like because you couldn't be. like yeah Yeah, there would have to be some detachment. Yeah.
00:35:46
Speaker
No matter how you look at it, there's so many questions and yeah so many unanswered things that we yeah really would love to know. I think this stuff is so super interesting. I could never be an archaeologist or historian because this would drive me nuts not knowing. I'm still going, why beans?
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah, why beans? I've researched it for a week and a half. Why beans? Why
00:36:24
Speaker
That's a wrap on this episode of Get In Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft. We hope you had as much fun as we did. If you love this episode, we'd be eternally grateful if you left us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
00:36:35
Speaker
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00:36:54
Speaker
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00:37:06
Speaker
Join us next week as we discuss solitary and magical practices. Until next time, stay magical, stay curious, and as always, blessed be witches.