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EP 27: South Sudan’s Political Shake-Up: Kiir’s New Decrees, Wani Igga’s Return, and Machar's Trial
8 Plays7 days ago
In this episode of the Spark It Podcast, we break down South Sudan’s most dramatic political shake-up in years. We analyze President Salva Kiir’s nine decrees issued in a single night, following the removal of Vice President Dr. Benjamin Bol Mel. We examine why Kiir acted now, and what these changes reveal about Kiir's strategy, loyalty politics, governance challenges, and the future of the Riek Machar trial. We discuss institutional instability, corruption risks, the growing normalization of reshuffles, and the recycling of loyal politicians like Dr. James Wani Igga, and how these moves signal the effective death of the 2018 peace agreement. A deep, honest, and timely political analysis for anyone following South Sudan politics.
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Transcript
Political Climate in South Sudan
00:00:06
Patrick Abure
Emmanuel Chaban, welcome back to the Spark 8 Podcast. It has been a busy week.
00:00:12
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, Patrick, thanks for coming. It's exciting to be back here. And it has been a very busy week indeed. Very, very busy, especially back home in South Sudan.
00:00:20
Patrick Abure
I know.
00:00:22
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:00:23
Patrick Abure
I know. And I know you have lots of updates for us, especially following the...
00:00:26
Emmanuel Taban
Oh, man. Yeah, of course, you know, there's there's no way you can run sort of stories when you're following politics in South Sudan.
00:00:30
Patrick Abure
yeah
00:00:35
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, every day almost comes with its news story. So, yeah, there's always...
00:00:40
Patrick Abure
I know.
00:00:41
Emmanuel Taban
it's always there that every day there must be ah an update on and the political happenings back home there.
00:00:49
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
00:00:50
Emmanuel Taban
Mm
00:00:51
Patrick Abure
and And just after the sacking of Dr. Benjamin Balmel, a few days or week ago, we've seen basically on Monday, like one of, I think the biggest reshuffle with the nine decrees literally issued in one night.
00:01:06
Emmanuel Taban
hmm. Mm hmm.
00:01:09
Patrick Abure
And that was on Monday. And I'm just wondering for you, why now? Why all those decrees?
Impact of Cabinet Reshuffles
00:01:16
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, like, perhaps President Kier, I think he, there's no way he can stay for weeks without filling those vacant positions. Of course, the other week, we all know that he removed Vice President Mel from his position.
00:01:34
Emmanuel Taban
And in fact, so many people were expecting that the following day he would actually make an appointment, replace ah bring in Ball's replacement, but it didn't happen. So he took a break over the week weekends and then on Monday, that is when he met the East series of decrees that did not only bring in balls replacement, but also swept up some leaders and and brought in a new one. And I think Akil couldn't just like the positions be vacant at that time. So it was the right thing to bring
00:02:07
Emmanuel Taban
the people at the right time, because I mean, in a country like that, if you keep silent for some time, then you're creating some kind of a ah controversies in the mind of people, what do you think, you know, people, people start having different perception. But I think he did the right thing. He made the replacement so fast.
00:02:27
Patrick Abure
Yeah, definitely.
00:02:28
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:02:29
Patrick Abure
i mean, some of these reshuffles, you know, um the they cause a level of worry, especially among just us as the ordinary citizens of South Sudan.
00:02:44
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:02:44
Emmanuel Taban
ah Yeah, there there's so many people who, I mean, one thing that people, think, are failing to see is that, you know, and I'm seeing it as a danger, is that we are normalizing it. its It's becoming like a culture now. I mean,
00:03:02
Emmanuel Taban
it it It doesn't even worry the people anymore. People know that every week or so, the president has to issue a decree relieving people. and And that is the danger of it when it becomes a culture, a continuous
Institutional Consequences of Reshuffles
00:03:14
Emmanuel Taban
practice. So I think you you know the impact of that. and If there's any reason why people should get worried about this frequent decrease, it's not even about maybe the the impact that the the people who get removed, maybe how maybe at some point will defect and come back and wage some kind of revengeful fight against the president of government.
00:03:35
Emmanuel Taban
But if there's one thing that people should get worried of is the consistency and the the normalizingization the the normalization of this practice. Because if it is done like this honestly, we are not going to have very good institutions build and and this at the end of the day goes down to the common person who get to be affected. And that is the danger of it.
00:03:55
Emmanuel Taban
know Yeah, it's the danger of that.
00:03:57
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
00:03:58
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:03:59
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. And I feel like honestly, like we I think we have discussed this in another episode. ah the The problem with these constant reshuffle of the cabinet is that these appointed officials do not have enough time to actually build strong institutions or to make, let's say strong improvements in those institutions and their ability to deliver services to the communities.
00:04:30
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly. Yeah, that's that's that's the huge that's the huge...
00:04:32
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:04:34
Emmanuel Taban
Because, I mean, you you bring in someone today and then let them be in that position maybe for months or a year. I mean, a year is not enough. Even like five months, it's not enough for...
00:04:48
Emmanuel Taban
a minister to probably what policies intends to to initiate that can maybe impact on the the broader society. It becomes really hard when we see this thing happening consistently, that someone is not given much time to put down what they want to deliver in that specific ministry.
00:05:15
Emmanuel Taban
And yeah, but it's it's just unfortunate that it's becoming a culture back home. But it's it's a worrying ah scenario right now. It it's it should be a worrying thing to every South Sudanese that we are normalizing it. And when when I see how people react to this, like every time the president issues, it it tells you clearly that people are getting used to it and they don't care anymore.
00:05:39
Emmanuel Taban
They don't really care. All
00:05:42
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:05:43
Emmanuel Taban
right.
00:05:44
Patrick Abure
And honestly, there's there's almost like no stability in these institutions as we have seen recently.
00:05:52
Emmanuel Taban
No stability at all. No stability. I like I was just trying I if I'm to give like just a rough number, I think right from 20, not but this year alone.
00:06:08
Emmanuel Taban
I think the finance and economic planning ministry alone has changed over four ministers. I mean, they are the same people, but at least the changes has happened like four times or so. so and And you can see like a very, very prominent ministry in a country such as the Ministry of Finance and and Economic Planning that is supposed to...
00:06:25
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:06:30
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, that is the engine of the entire country. The finance ministry... plays a very, very vital role. In other countries, that is the national treasury of the country. I mean, it controls the the national resources, the national money. I mean, that is done by the finance minister. And you can see that if you have like different people coming in within a very short time, so it it it poses like so many questions about one um ah like even the intention of these people because they know that if they get into that position, perhaps they'll only spend like a little time before
Corruption and Governance Issues
00:07:07
Emmanuel Taban
they are kicked off. So you see that someone comes into that lucrative ministry with intention ofcap of skipping out with some something because they know they're not going to survive there anyway. So they need to
00:07:19
Emmanuel Taban
ah package themselves before they they they leave the ministry. And by the time they are shown the exit door, at least when they already have something in their in their pockets.
00:07:29
Emmanuel Taban
And and that that creates a lot of ah of governance issues within the country. It really, really does. And it's not only the Ministry of Finance. We have seen this so many times. Even the vice president's position, we have seen several changes coming in over and over again. and Yeah, but and the entire thing, it creates lot of issues about the governance of the country, building strong institutions, trusted institutions and students that are accountable. It's hard to attain it when we have this practice done every time.
00:08:01
Patrick Abure
Yeah, and and i think I agree with most of what you've said, because I also feel like, honestly,
00:08:02
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:08:08
Emmanuel Taban
All right.
00:08:11
Patrick Abure
this This kind of a constant reshuffle, what it it does is that, just like you've said, it it encourages a culture of corruption.
00:08:23
Patrick Abure
It encourages a culture where these ministries and institutions that are ideally supposed to be accountable to the community become sites of corruption.
00:08:35
Patrick Abure
become sites of looting, become sites of embezzlement and very many other um acts that are really not in the interest of the public.
00:08:47
Emmanuel Taban
Right. the absolutely right. Yeah, you are right.
00:08:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah, that's quite unfortunate. And honestly, so when you look at the reshuffle that happened last Monday, have do you think it was the the largest like single night reshuffle that we've seen since the 2018 peace deal?
00:09:07
Emmanuel Taban
Thank you.
00:09:11
Patrick Abure
Or do you think there are larger ones that we've had?
00:09:14
Emmanuel Taban
it It really becomes even hard to track which one is the largest because we had, I mean, several of them that happened right from 2018.
Historical Context of Reshuffles
00:09:21
Emmanuel Taban
We have so many that are in one day is actually, we've seen like over 10 institutions being affected in the previous. I don't think this is ah this is this is the largest, but I feel it's one of ah one of kind. And but But the magnitude, the the kind of ah people it brought in, and I think it's it's it's so heavy because ah we've seen one that brought some changes into the VP position and around four or three cabinet ministries.
00:09:58
Emmanuel Taban
And then we have also the IGP and some
00:10:03
Emmanuel Taban
um ah How do you call it? Like, I think ambassadors and kind of thing, invoice and what.
00:10:10
Patrick Abure
Yeah, presidential invoice.
00:10:10
Emmanuel Taban
So, yeah, it's, it's it's out yeah, I'll say it's it's not the largest, but it's it's one of the largest in the country. And I know if we are to go and and and track all the decrees issued by the president, there's possibility of us finding one that is greater than the one that happened last week.
00:10:28
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, this week, early this week and and Monday.
00:10:31
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. And I think we can definitely see that one of the most historic reshuffle I think that we've seen as a country perhaps is the one that happened 2013, December Right.
00:10:32
Emmanuel Taban
right.
00:10:46
Patrick Abure
december fifteenth
00:10:46
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Yeah, that is, they call it the mother of recyclables. It's the most, that's the most significant carbonate recyclable that actually got in the country to where it is today. So it's undeniable. And yeah, that was the massive one.
00:11:05
Emmanuel Taban
I think that would that would be that will remain in history as one of the most impactful carbonate reservoirs that have actually impacted and and on the future of the country. That would go down in history, definitely.
00:11:20
Emmanuel Taban
The one that happened in 2013, in December, around 16 December, 15, yeah, that one. Yeah, around
00:11:24
Patrick Abure
Yeah, December 15th, I think.
00:11:24
Emmanuel Taban
Right. december fifteen ah that one
00:11:27
Patrick Abure
December 15th or early.
00:11:28
Emmanuel Taban
yeah around ah
00:11:29
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:31
Emmanuel Taban
right
00:11:32
Patrick Abure
Definitely. and And, you know, it's quite interesting. Like for me, when I watch the news and see how sometimes the the people who are either fired and those who are brought in, and sometimes how these are people that previously had been fired, and now they're brought back again.
00:11:54
Patrick Abure
I just wonder, like, what does this say?
00:11:55
Emmanuel Taban
here
00:11:58
Patrick Abure
Imagine if these people have been there the whole time in the first place.
Leadership Challenges and Indecisiveness
00:12:03
Patrick Abure
Imagine maybe the kind of changes they would have made.
00:12:03
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:12:06
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
00:12:06
Patrick Abure
Because it appears that and at one point they trusted this person so much, maybe in between something happened, then they had to let them go.
00:12:07
Emmanuel Taban
i
00:12:15
Patrick Abure
And again, they realize, oh, no, I think they are the right people for the job. So they are brought back again.
00:12:21
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, I think that clearly exposes ah the president's level of indecisiveness. I mean, there's there's no way you can ah you can dumb someone today and then you go back to them and claiming they are the best. And we have seen this happen so many times. This happened with the CDF. um Like the current chief of defense forces, that is, Paul Nang, he was previously removed and replaced, and then he was brought back. The current minister of finance and economic planning, that is, Barnabas, back, he was previously removed and replaced and again brought back.
00:12:56
Emmanuel Taban
The same person, James Wanee Iga, who was then the vice president of the Economic Cluster, was, I mean, it it clearly exposes that Sometimes the president is maybe doesn't really make very good decisions or if he does, think there is it tells me like there's a small clique of people maybe within his circle who are actually trying to ill-advise him at some point. You know, I always maintain the point that the president has some good advisers sometime maybe, but also
00:13:30
Emmanuel Taban
You know, there are a section of people maybe in his cycle who are trying to infl influence things happen. And that can easily be seen in some of the decisions that he made.
00:13:41
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, it it really doesn't make any sense. if you use If you use common sense, you're removing someone on some basis. you don't even and And one of the funniest things that happens with this decrease is that the president doesn't come out openly and tell you the reason why they're actually removing someone.
00:13:56
Emmanuel Taban
He didn't come out and tell us why Benjamin Balmell is removed, what crime he committed. and And so with the other ministers and other leaders in the military or even in the civil service, this all happened. There's no any reason why any written statement that accompanies this decree.
00:14:15
Emmanuel Taban
It really, really becomes very hard for us to to to tell his intentions or why he is acting indecisively, that he is unable actually to identify that someone is capable or incapable and try to leave them. i mean We have so many South Sudanese in the private sector, in in different aspects of life who are well-versed. They have the their skills.
00:14:38
Emmanuel Taban
They have their the the credentials. And they have actually learned how things are supposed to be done. And therefore, They should have been given way. If you don't trust someone, if you have lost hope and trust that someone doesn't someone is not going to perform, then why again go back to them and bring them? Give away to a new person who perhaps will bring the change you have been looking for.
00:15:02
Emmanuel Taban
I think that is there is that is one thing that this decrease actually exposes that either the president is acting, being indecisive, he he doesn't have like, or he doesn't also have maybe the ability to identify someone who can do the job very well.
00:15:21
Emmanuel Taban
Because ah and ah one of the qualities of i always argue that one of the qualities of ah a good leader is the ability to identify someone who can actually deliver your plan.
00:15:33
Emmanuel Taban
What do you plan for the people?
00:15:34
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:15:35
Emmanuel Taban
Kiri is seasoned politician, a seasoned leader. He should understand very well the people that are close to him, who are those people that are capable. I mean, he has been in the trenches with some of these generals that are right now serving. He should have understand their their personalities very well, their ability to perform tasks, and that shouldn't give him hard time.
00:15:56
Emmanuel Taban
But it's unfortunate that it's happening at this time that the president is acting indecisively, and and it's it's unfortunate. Yeah.
00:16:05
Patrick Abure
It is.
00:16:06
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:16:06
Patrick Abure
And I think i agree with you that to some extent, what we have seen is definitely ah show of the indecisiveness of President Salva Kiir.
00:16:19
Patrick Abure
And I feel that this has, to some extent, affected our economy and in a way
00:16:20
Emmanuel Taban
Why?
00:16:28
Patrick Abure
allowed for this volatility that we've seen in our economy to just continue and to get more worse and worse by the day.
00:16:36
Emmanuel Taban
bye Right. That's true. that That's true. And I think all the president needs to do is just have the goodwill.
00:16:47
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, the president has the power to change everything in the country. I mean, South Sudan doesn't really need so many years to change. It it only it only requires goodwill from from its leaders, and that's all what's needed.
00:17:00
Emmanuel Taban
If the president can come out and show that will, that... maybe in four, three or so years, I want to see this country different. He has the power to do that.
00:17:11
Emmanuel Taban
He has that power. He has the power to bring in the right people, keep them there, build institutions, strengthen security around himself, build that trust with people that he may be at some point losing trust with them so he feels comfortable. I mean, it it it all starts from building ah that goodwill. I think he just needs to show that. it He needs to exhibit that and everything would be good for the country.
Key Appointments and Their Implications
00:17:36
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:17:37
Patrick Abure
Absolutely, yeah.
00:17:39
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:17:39
Patrick Abure
And looking back at the reshuffle that happened on but Monday, and I think you probably have seen this, that Dr. James Wanigia was reappointed as the vice president for the economic cluster.
00:18:00
Patrick Abure
And I'm just wondering, what does this send to the Equatorial region
00:18:01
Emmanuel Taban
Thank you.
00:18:07
Patrick Abure
and maybe the international community.
00:18:11
Emmanuel Taban
i I think the the reappointment of IGA wasn't a surprise. I mean, we had in our previous episode, we discussed about this, and I gave two options.
00:18:23
Emmanuel Taban
One person that would probably come in as boss replacement is either Adut Salva Kiir, who is the daughter to the president, or President Kiir would be tempted to actually go and revisit his political garbage bin and recycle IGA. And that is exactly what happened. He went and brought back Eger reinstated him as the vice president for the economic last. And I think um last time also I said the reason why Eger stands high chances of of being reinstated is because he possesses all the qualities that Kier is seeking from someone to occupy that position. One, a guy who doesn't pose a threat to his leadership. And second, a guy who is easily disposable, who at any point, if Kier wants, he can dispose him and he's not going to do anything to Kier.
00:19:08
Emmanuel Taban
But also a guy who is very loyal to him. And I say that over the years, Iger has actually exhibited that that art. He has mastered the art of loyalty and he has acted so loyal to their the president.
00:19:22
Emmanuel Taban
You remember in 2013 when the cabinet was reserved for and Machar was removed from his position as the vice president. And at some point, Igor was reinstated as the vice president, as Machar's replacement. But when the war happened in 2013 and kind of peace agreements made in an agreement was signed and it was decided that Machari should be reinstated, even after fighting the government and creating all that chaos. So Iga was asked to do that, and he was disposed, he accepted it, and he allowed Machari to come.
00:19:57
Emmanuel Taban
When even people knew, there was actually an argument that before Machari, Iga was supposed to be advised. I mean, he was the only immediate person that was close to those of Garang and Kir, taking the history right from 1991,
00:20:09
Emmanuel Taban
one where Machare had defected. And he was actually contrary to the struggle Espelim. He was working contrary to the Espelim movement because they had formed what we call the Nasser function, which was so much a lie to the north and not actually fighting an interest of...
00:20:28
Emmanuel Taban
the southern Sudanese. and and And by that time, people argued that the the right person who actually deserved to be the vice president then that would get the country to independence was Iga. But Iga was disposed, and then Machar was reinstated. And again, um when in recently in February, when he was disposed and bold man was brought in, he he had nothing to say. i mean, he accepted that. And He was given position in the party, but again, later taken out. So um as I said, IGA has always possessed those qualities that President Keir is seeking from a person who can occupy the VP position. And it didn't take me by surprise to see that he was reinstated. Very exciting. But then to the Equatorians, I don't see any...
00:21:16
Emmanuel Taban
an impact that it's it's more of just a representation in the presidency. and And that's that's what i'm I'm seeing it because we have a regional balance because we have the president who's coming from Barakazal region. We have a um taban den guy who's coming from upper nile region we have mama and then who's coming from upper nile region and probably we'll have my child rain stated uh who's coming from up on a region again um and and i feel that we might likely see um it changes a little bit because um i don't think if uh kiri is going to keep
00:21:54
Emmanuel Taban
are two Equatorians in the presidency for the purpose of regional violence. Because right now we do have the daughter to the former liberation fighter, that is Josephine Lagu as the vice president for service cluster.
00:22:08
Emmanuel Taban
And you remember when Iga was removed from the position, and Ball brought in to create that balance, that regional balance. Kirill had to take off Abdel Baghi, who was um ah the vice president for Service Cluster, and brought in an Equatorian in the names of ah Josephine Lagou, I think just to bring in that regional balance. But now I'm seeing that with the coming of ah James Waniga, we are likely to see Josephine Lagou losing her position as well. I think that is one thing she should get worried about.
00:22:38
Emmanuel Taban
because ah um I'm not seeing it that Kirill finds it so so so fine to keep two Equatorians in the vice president position. So we're likely to see in the next few days or so another cabinet, I mean, another result for a decree is maybe taking out Josephine Lagu and bringing in a different person one to the vice president.
00:22:51
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:23:00
Emmanuel Taban
But that's just a prediction that is I'm suspecting that might happen. ah based on how the things are have been happening in the previous months. or they so yeah And to the international community, as I said before, that every time we see decrees issued and people removed and new ones brought in, it only sends one message to the international community that there is political instability in the country. The government is not stable at all. And that that also makes them create the fear that maybe the country is at the verge of getting back into war because they always know that this these politicians have the same trade traits that when they remove, they get angry. When they get angry, they go in the booth and fight back the government. So i think that is the message that the international community gets every time they see cabinet resale in Dubai.
00:23:56
Emmanuel Taban
All
00:23:57
Patrick Abure
And definitely, and I think from what you've said, it is very clear that this was a very strategic move from President Salvatore to basically keep loyalists around himself as a way to selfard his our power and and and and and make sure that he holds on to that.
00:24:07
Emmanuel Taban
right. Mm-hmm.
00:24:25
Patrick Abure
At least for us.
00:24:27
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly right that's that's right yeah mean you know it's It's all about keeping your people who are so loyal to you. you know As I said last time, in a country such as South Sudan, you don't want to keep people you don't trust. right You need people always who you trust.
00:24:44
Emmanuel Taban
Because history has shown that when you are with yourself people that you don't trust 100%, the possibility of them actually toppling your government. So I think that's what Kiri is looking for. He wants loyalists around himself.
00:24:56
Emmanuel Taban
And that's what exactly he has done. Yeah.
00:24:59
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And I think for me, it begs the question, this need to surround himself with loyalists, at what expense does it come? Does it come the expense of skills and competence?
00:25:16
Patrick Abure
Does it come at the expense of people who would have the capacity to, let's say, secure the country and ensure economic stability in the country that we haven't seen in a while?
00:25:30
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, um um it's unfortunate that at some point it really doesn't come with that consideration. You know, that the what they consider as solo is thus the loyalty and they don't mind if you you have some kind of expertise or you're someone who is capable, as long as you're loyal. So that that gives you the...
00:25:54
Emmanuel Taban
the leeway to come into this, serve into positions. So it's it's unfortunate that sometimes they do. But also, I think there is no shortage of people who are loyal but still exhibit those expit ah i mean experience and expertise or the ability to perform. There are so many people who can be very loyal to the president. I mean, he knows it very well.
00:26:13
Emmanuel Taban
and i was just kind of impressed with a few kind of uh appointments that were made especially the one of Athena Wake I mean that was a very very very I was actually expecting that to come before that came i just wrote like ah on Facebook a few I think minutes before the decals was like Athena Wake deserves the docket of the ICT and and really from the way I've seen him I think He is one of the most progressive minds in in the country right now.
00:26:41
Emmanuel Taban
He probably understands, he is a professional and he has been in that field, a journalist by profession, and they probably he he knows how to relate with the public. and That is one skill that is much needed with someone who acts as government spokesperson, but also Minister of Information. You know, you get to create that conducive environment between the government and the people. So I think ah ah but he has been a very, very, very long time critic of the government. Before he was even appointed last time as a press secretary for the president, he was a very, very good critic for the government. I mean, he criticized the government on so many issues.
00:27:19
Emmanuel Taban
And after that, he was brought in as the press secretary. But when he got removed and has been living in the political wilderness all this while, and he has also, he has been a very vocal, trying to be relevant, attending some youth sessions around Juba and just trying to keep himself within, ah to continue being relevant. and ah With his appointment, I really think theres there's so much that he is going to to to create, creating conducive environment between the government and and and the people. I think that that is that was one of the most ah important appointments. And there's so many other appointments that i I was impressed with. and
00:28:00
Emmanuel Taban
But the one with Obatena work was outstanding. And I was so happy when i when I had that. And just today when I was going on Facebook, I saw one of his videos. I think during his homecoming what what to celebration, and he he gave a very, very promising statement where he said,
00:28:18
Emmanuel Taban
The Ministry of Information is going to be a home for the journalists where when they find that they are going they're getting arrested for issues of violation of the constitution, when they are performing their duty, they should come to run to the Ministry for Safety. and And that is how the Ministry is supposed to be. And that if any journalists get arrested in the due process of doing their job, they should give him a call. He's always going to be open and he will always be there for them. I think that's a very, very huge and very important statement. which I feel that being the minister, he can perhaps work on some policies that can promote the freedom of speech and expression in the country. Because for a country to develop, really, there's this need for people to have public debates on issues
Public Dialogue and Governance
00:29:04
Emmanuel Taban
of the country. We need to have open platforms where people get to criticize some policies that the government is trying, but also The government comes out and defends some of the policies that they are doing so that if they are really important, they get to convince the people that these are the policies, these are our intentions behind these policies.
00:29:21
Emmanuel Taban
And people can easily create in that um conducive environment between the people. And that is the the ideal of leadership, is is to to be a link between the people and and and and the government, which is very important. I was impressed when I saw him appointed as the minister of ICT and Postal Services.
00:29:41
Emmanuel Taban
I think that was a very smart move by President Keir.
00:29:46
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. And I think I agree too.
00:29:47
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:29:48
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:29:49
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:29:49
Patrick Abure
and and And I think it's super important definitely to have spaces that allow for freedom of speech and expression. And I think these platforms are super important also for promoting public dialogue and reconciliation, which we really need a lot at South Sudan, given the history and some of the horrible
00:29:58
Emmanuel Taban
Hmm.
00:30:05
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
00:30:15
Patrick Abure
things that have happened in the country over the years.
00:30:17
Emmanuel Taban
Right. That's right. it that's That's right. we We're seeing only a few spaces. We really don't have so many spaces that can bring in the leaders and and and and and the but members of the public together to advise on some issues. it's It's a very important step. I mean, for a country to... People are not enemies.
00:30:37
Emmanuel Taban
Leaders are not your enemies and the public, you're serving them. So therefore, there should always be consistent, ah ah a deliberate move by the leaders to engage the people. Because if you engage them, you get to listen about their cries, what they want, what are the challenges they're going through. And that informs your policies, that informs the that informs the decisions of the government that you should take.
00:31:01
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, if you don't get to listen from the people, then what are you going to initiate? What policies, what plans are you going to initiate that can help them if you don't listen them? I think having such platforms are really, really very important.
00:31:13
Emmanuel Taban
And with the coming of a tenure, I think he he really you should do that. And yeah, which is very important.
00:31:22
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. Yeah, I agree.
00:31:23
Emmanuel Taban
All right.
00:31:25
Patrick Abure
And I think what we what we wait to see is the action beat of what he has said.
00:31:33
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:31:35
Patrick Abure
Hopefully he can deliver on the statement that he made.
00:31:38
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
00:31:39
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:31:39
Patrick Abure
And I love something you said, that South Sudanese leaders are not our enemies as the public.
00:31:50
Patrick Abure
And I think the other way around is true. The public leaders of South Sudan should know that the public is not their enemy as well.
00:32:01
Patrick Abure
And so when they're giving us the spaces, when we are demanding, for the spaces to be able to freely express ourselves and be able to contribute to public debate and public dialogue, they shouldn't see that as a threat. And I think some of these spaces extend to include things like, for example, protests.
00:32:25
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
00:32:26
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:32:27
Emmanuel Taban
that's That's true. I mean, ah the protest and freedom of expression and and the the freedom to picket, I mean, these these are these are constitutional liberties that are enshrined almost in every country's constitution.
00:32:45
Emmanuel Taban
They are there. And then on some international charters, I mean, that most countries are part of. So it it it creates the it gives you people the ah the the rights to go on the streets and for protest.
00:32:57
Emmanuel Taban
And the one thing that maybe people are not understanding, most of the leaders are not getting it right. It's that They feel when people go on the street, they want to topple their governments. I mean, no. When people go on the streets, they're just simply um telling the government to act, calling the government to to act right, or maybe they're trying to express their dissatisfactions. And and in in in the process of of policy formulation is that there are some steps where you get to, you know, is in in many, many countries, like policies are informed by
00:33:30
Emmanuel Taban
by when by ah i mean when a situation arises, you know when there is a need for something, and you you develop policies to settle to settle that specific problem, or you develop solutions to do that. And there's a way where people bring up things. If people are not satisfied with the way how things are done in in It could be in their constituency or in their country, in the broader country. What they do is that there's always, there are people who come up with that. days We have the civil society that comes up and speaks about this to tell the government to act. There's also the members of the public. They can come up to protests or demonstrations, just writing on their on their cards and moving on the streets, telling the government to act, not necessarily to overthrow or to topple your government, but they're just telling you to act. And it should be
00:34:20
Emmanuel Taban
ah those complaints presented in those ways that should actually inform the government decisions or the way on how they should create solutions to to their country.
00:34:31
Emmanuel Taban
And if they don't give people these platforms, then it becomes so hard for the government to know exactly what the people want, because every time people come on the street trying to to express themselves, telling the government what is not going around, they are shut down.
00:34:45
Emmanuel Taban
then people develop the tendency of always keeping quiet even when there are so many issues down. And therefore, the government will not get to know about these things happening down there. and If the government doesn't know, of course, they will not ask and they will not develop solutions to this problem. And this is how countries or nations sunk. it's It's not good.
00:35:04
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:35:06
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. Yeah, I definitely agree with you.
00:35:07
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
Makwe's Appointment and Machar's Trial
00:35:09
Patrick Abure
and And I hope really that the new appointments help contribute towards, you know, um guaranteeing and the promoting of our liberties that are enshrined in our constitution of South Sudan.
00:35:09
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:35:26
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly. No. Mm-hmm.
00:35:27
Patrick Abure
Yeah. um
00:35:27
Emmanuel Taban
no
00:35:29
Patrick Abure
Maybe moving a little bit far from that, So Michael McWhe has been moved from the Ministry of Information to the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Affairs.
00:35:49
Patrick Abure
And this is the appointment that everyone in South Sudan is talking about. Why is that so?
00:35:59
Emmanuel Taban
Very, very strategic appointment there. I think i when i when i when I read that, it gave me a clear picture of what is likely to happen. and But as I said, this is also a prediction. I'm not quite sure that I...
00:36:14
Emmanuel Taban
I think might happen, right? But, you know, over the years, McQuay has been a very, it's he has been a hardliner. I mean, like he has been calling my child names and um over and over again, he has come out as one of the most ah hilarious but also ah intimidating cabinet minister in the entire country.
00:36:38
Emmanuel Taban
So many people find it so hard to interact with Makwe, yet he holds a very, very prominent position that should have actually given him the um to interact with the public. But it becomes so really hard. You know the way how he engaged with journalists or the media houses sometimes, it's it's really so intimidating.
00:36:57
Emmanuel Taban
And many people find him as a bully because every time interacts, there's always one he tells you, if you feel this country is not good for you, then you have you have the... you can You can just leave it and go where you feel it's better. i mean, he has been really a very, very um a headliner for Keir's government. And people ah people know that very well. And he's one of the guys who has actually not been affected so much with all these political, I mean, cabinet resale falls and what, you know.
00:37:29
Emmanuel Taban
McQuade and Martin Elia Lumro, who is the cabinet minister of cabinet affairs, I think these are the only few people who have actually not been affected with these cabinet resuppos.
00:37:41
Emmanuel Taban
But um taking McQuade to the position of the Justice Department or the Justice Docket, I think it's a strategic move because um I don't doubt his ah credibility.
00:37:54
Emmanuel Taban
He is a lawyer by profession and he is ah he acted as a legal counsel at some point. he is a He also acted as a judge at some point, I think. at the court So he really has all the the credentials. He has the qualifications to serve. He has what it takes to serve in that inal position of of justice.
00:38:13
Emmanuel Taban
But then what I think sparked the debate in so many people's minds is why now? or Why at this point? And um when we looked at ah the changes that came, you remember when the issue of Machar came up ah in early March about the Nasser incident and he was locked in, and then they set up a committee of investigators to go and carry out if at all he is associated with the incident that happened in Nasser,
00:38:41
Emmanuel Taban
It was the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Affairs that actually came out and read out the charges against Machar. Remember, it was the Honorable Dr. Akech Gang, who was the then former Minister of Justice. He came out and read those charges against Machar.
00:39:01
Emmanuel Taban
and which actually initiated the court to be established and to carry out the prosecution of Machar. So, um and over the time, as this trial was progressing, we have seen so many discussions about the possibility, and people were saying, actually, one of the guys who was so much into these...
00:39:24
Emmanuel Taban
The driver of my child was male. There was this kind of debate where people say that male was the one behind these these ah this driver of my child. He was feeling he doesn't want my child to be there in position and kind of and all this kind of stuff. and And, you know, there was also these these allegations going um um I don't know if it's true, but that's why I'm saying it's allegations that um the the prosecutors actually they those can these these lawyers who were the prosecution team, they were actually given a day like six thousand dollars per day. and They were funded by mail. That's what I read the other day.
00:39:58
Emmanuel Taban
So taking out of Benjamin Ballmer as the vice president of the Economic Cluster and putting McQuay into the Justice Department probably tells us that in the next few days, we're likely to see a change a shift in the trial of Machar.
00:40:15
Emmanuel Taban
And I can't tell exactly if it is a positive or a negative one. But if it is a negative one, um it is going to, i mean, if it is a positive change in favor, because I mean, we are likely to see that McCoy influences the decision that is going to be made in this case of Machari. Either one, making sure that Machari is made a free man, or oh the the entire case is dismissed,
00:40:42
Emmanuel Taban
ah came ah It comes out and dismisses the entire case. Or, like but of course, being ah the the Minister of Justice in other countries is referred to as the Attorney General of the country. And therefore, in any case, that...
00:40:57
Emmanuel Taban
ah it's against the state, especially like the one going right now, it is the state against the likes of Machair. So the state has the right to withdraw the case out. you know They can either say, okay, we're not interested in this case anymore. They can they can withdraw it out and then Machair can be reinstated. So if there is any change that is likely to happen, we might see that
00:41:22
Emmanuel Taban
So yeah, I was saying we are likely to see a different shift in the case of Machar, either the case being dismissed by the seven ministry that actually met the charges against him, which is now being led by Makwe, or we are likely, if it changes to be a negative one, then it's going to be ah one that is going to be so intense.
00:41:45
Emmanuel Taban
But I don't really think ah Keir wanted to make a a political blunder in this case by by continuing with this case and maybe hoping to see a verdict that can ah make a my child guilty of all the charges that were made. I mean, if he does that, then that would be a political suicide for him.
00:42:06
Emmanuel Taban
i don't I don't think if he will ever make be interested in taking that direction. I don't think so. Yeah. But the appointment of... ah of uh of of mcquay to the justice i think it's influenced by the ongoing trial of machai that was the major decision that actually uh influence his appointment towards the justice department yeah right
00:42:27
Patrick Abure
Right. And when you look at how um
00:42:33
Patrick Abure
Michael McQua has spent maybe 12 years calling Riyak Machar a traitor, including on live radio, basically.
00:42:44
Patrick Abure
When you see his appointment, don't you think it is directly going influence the results of the trial of Riyak Machar in favor of this state.
00:42:57
Emmanuel Taban
i I really don't think so. I mean, i really don't think if Kiri is interested or if the estate is interested in in really continuing with the case of Machar, I don't really think so. They are interested.
00:43:12
Emmanuel Taban
And And as I said, if they really decide to go that direction, I think it's a direction that will take the country down. And I don't see i don't see it being ah the right. i mean ah You know, there there are situations, you know, Machar, I mean, Makwe might have been calling Machar names.
00:43:32
Emmanuel Taban
and But also he has to ah know that there is someone who is above him, and that is none other than the president.
00:43:43
Emmanuel Taban
You might have said that based on the situations the time that that were actually happening. in play, but I think this is a time where I can take, I mean, politics you don't have to in politics you don't have to be constant, you know, the way how you act, the way how you don't have to be constant, you always have to be flexible in different situations, you don't have to remain rigid in the way of your thinking and the way you relate with some people.
00:44:09
Emmanuel Taban
And and um I'm seeing really that there is I see that there is a new new kind of ah I think the president is really being fed with the new advice, I guess, if not from the daughter, I mean, from someone.
00:44:26
Emmanuel Taban
But I feel that the presence of our dude right now as a presidential, at senior presidential envoy, I mean, I feel like she's really, really making a very, very... um a high influence right now in the government indirectly by advising the president but some of the decisions that i see coming out i i just see them as she was in nairobi with my bureau and then uh later my girl was appointed and and and i think if uh there's there's no any political advisor for
00:45:07
Emmanuel Taban
advisor for kill would actually mean good for him and wants to advise kids to continue prosecuting this case to an extent where they pass a verdict that finds my child guilty in that I mean we all know the impact of treasony as a go for live imprisonment or he is he's executed which he is not good which is not good I don't think this will ever happen and when it goes when it happens the country would definitely go down And I don't think Kir wants to see that happen or any other leader or even Makwe himself. He doesn't want to see that happen.
00:45:42
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:45:44
Patrick Abure
Right.
00:45:45
Emmanuel Taban
hmm.
00:45:45
Patrick Abure
And go so Amnesty International and the UN have called the trial of Riyad Machar as politically tainted.
00:46:01
Patrick Abure
And I'm just wondering, like the appointment of McQuay, does it kill any remaining hope or fairness in this trial?
00:46:12
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, the appointment of Makwe, I really don't, um I'm not looking at it from the from the negative point of view, but um I'm seeing, ah you know, if if the appointment of Makwe could even mean like ah the results from the international community, maybe regarding the issue of ah of of my child. You know, there's a way how the international community can punish you.
00:46:35
Emmanuel Taban
when they find that you are not doing things in their interest, they can withhold some kind of support that they are giving you, like make so much, insert a lot of pressure on you, even withdraw their embassies or their support from you. And in that way, they're indirectly calling you to act in a very rightful way. so um i really I'm not looking at the the appointment of Makwe as a final ah nail maybe on on on on the hopes of ah and and of the issue of Machar, but it could be i mean the driven by the positive move to actually suspend the case of Machar or even just influence some kind of verdict that can work in favour of Machar and then we see them release.
00:47:24
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, so, and and and and I think, care by this time, we should have been informed maybe by the intelligence of the country or from the the view, how the public has been viewing this issue and and the international community.
00:47:39
Emmanuel Taban
And for all this while, the issue has been going and there are so many negative ah i mean comments that is coming out from different people, the public, but also people, the international community.
00:47:50
Emmanuel Taban
I think he must be having now a clear ah indication of what he needs to do with the issue of Machar. And if he is someone who listens to the view, I think he's going to suspend this case or withdraw the case and reinstate Machar back. So the appointment of McQuay could even mean like a positive thing in favor of Machar and his co-accused, probably making an influence to see that they are um made free people. Yeah.
00:48:17
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:48:17
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
00:48:20
Patrick Abure
I think I agree with your take that the appointment of McQuay could be a double edged sword in the sense that it could be what is needed maybe to break a compromise that maybe have this case dropped or withdrawn altogether and
00:48:27
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right. Right.
00:48:44
Patrick Abure
Riak Machar reinstated as the first vice president of South Sudan. But also there is the possibility of the exact opposite, which could mean, for example, maybe he is found guilty and he's sentenced to the maybe life in prison or he is executed or he is exiled again.
00:49:12
Patrick Abure
Do you see this as a
00:49:12
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:49:14
Patrick Abure
know the the best scenario or worst case scenario that could happen.
00:49:20
Emmanuel Taban
i I think ah if they are to make a um an influence into this case, and then which is meant to maybe come up with a verdict and find my child guilty,
00:49:36
Emmanuel Taban
then they will be left with only one option. The only option that is ah close to not being seen bad is maybe to exile him. but But again, I think that that's going to be like not in in favor of so many people. So many people, you know, my child really has a very, very huge command in the country. I mean, he has a very huge and grassroot ah command. So so But if they try to come up with that, so we're likely to see the country being destabilized again in different areas. And and yeah, but my if I was here, I think I would just with withdraw the case. Instead, I would task Mokwe to make a statement and and
00:50:22
Emmanuel Taban
follow the right procedures and withdraw the case and and and just dismiss it and then reinstate Macharo back. perhaps And maybe also that is the advice that he's getting from his advisors, maybe to take that direction.
00:50:38
Emmanuel Taban
But as I said, it's a double-edged thing. So we might see it happen in a positive way in favour of Macharo or against him. So we until the decision is made, it's hard for us to tell what this is going to be.
00:50:53
Patrick Abure
I agree. And I think that, for example, if you if you're sitting the other side of the aisle and say, for example, that the court actually finds Reak Machar guilty of the crimes that he's been charged with and say maybe he is pardoned by the president or basically not sentenced at all Wouldn't that be unfair, especially to those that he has, ah to those that have lost their lives in the nursery incident? Oh, yeah.
00:51:39
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, I think it would look so. But also, as ah as a leader, you have a you have you you have ah President Kerry has, i mean, within his his ah powers to to to pardon any other person.
00:51:57
Emmanuel Taban
But i even I'm looking at that being the wise decision to either continue with the persecution and find my child guilty, and then he goes on and and pardons him, and and make that pardon for him. I mean, it makes him look like a saint. I mean, it makes him like someone who...
00:52:17
Emmanuel Taban
who you come out like people will see that you see he has been charged was found guilty he committed this crime but the president came out and pardoned him so i mean he he'll gather like he'll get a lot of uh support and sympathy from the entire country but i think it also be unfair to the lives of those who who who were lost, perhaps they... But to do that, they they can they can as well generate the a body of people who can who can do a compensation for the lives that were are lost in Nasser. So they can insert that, and if if they are were if they are really serious about that, like they can set up a team that can work towards the compensation of the victims of the Nasser incident. So they can tell me that way, and then
00:53:03
Emmanuel Taban
and then you compensate them, those the families and and and relatives of those who were killed in and in the Nasser incident. But then, yeah, I think that does that's that's totally up to up to President Kaye. He has the right to do that. But I think ah the only good thing that is good for just to create the perception in the eyes of the public is to continue with the case but then in influence maybe the judiciary which is don't advise to really do it and come out with a verdict that my child is not guilty i think that is that is that is the most ah wise thing to do you don't have to dismiss the case one if you dismiss the case it it will first look like you have wasted state resources
00:53:49
Emmanuel Taban
in making, in initiating a persecution which you do not want to sustain, you'd have wasted the state resources in doing that. And second of all, like it it doesn't really give the government a very good image. If if you started something and then at the end of the day you withdraw it,
00:54:06
Emmanuel Taban
it It doesn't give you a very good, makes you, put you in a a good place. um So ah suspending the case, to me, is not the best idea. But dismissing it is is not a best idea.
00:54:20
Emmanuel Taban
And charging my child with, I mean, finding him guilty and then wanting him to face the penalty for that, which is either execution or life imprisonment, it's not a wise decision either.
00:54:35
Emmanuel Taban
um oh So, finding him guilty and exiling him who might be kind of... I would say it's it's it's a middle kind of thing. it's It's not the best, but not the worst either. So, you can do that. But I think the best thing to do is...
00:54:51
Emmanuel Taban
to run the entire process up to the end, just insert some kind of influence somewhere and that finds Machar not guilty. And when Machar is found not guilty, they reinstate him back.
00:55:02
Emmanuel Taban
It makes the public believe that he has never done anything during the Nasser incident, but also that the government has not wasted resources in prosecuting him. They have done it up to the end. But the courts says find that he is not guilty. he is a freeman. I think that is the best decision that the They can do, but still the government can look for ways on how to compensate the the victims of the Nasser incident. They can work together with the with the opposition after reinstating Machar and compensate the victims of the Nasser incident.
00:55:32
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. And that's the wise decisions to do.
00:55:36
Patrick Abure
That is a very interesting.
00:55:37
Emmanuel Taban
All right.
00:55:39
Patrick Abure
Yeah, because for me, I think I feel that the the the trial of Riyak Machar is a test of judicial independence in South Sudan.
00:55:52
Patrick Abure
And if ever there is such influences as, for example, you are suggesting, I think this could be the thing that either breaks the trust of the public in these institutions, or that maybe either encourages or cultivates trust in these institutions.
00:56:13
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
00:56:14
Patrick Abure
And I think for like for me, not as a politician, I would think that if the court can prove beyond a reasonable of doubt that actually child is guilty or not guilty,
00:56:34
Patrick Abure
That would be the best outcome. If the public is 100% convinced and the court is also convinced, whatever the verdict, it can play a very critical role in building trust in these institutions.
00:56:44
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Yeah, I i think that that's right. I mean, so many people have always seen the tribe of Machar as a test for the judicial system of the country.
00:56:59
Emmanuel Taban
and and And yeah, of course, like, I mean, this this there's no doubt that the judiciary or the court can still act independently without the influence of it. But but as I said, that if if I really don't have my own observation, and I've been following that case, but I don't i don't really see that. I feel like most of the the charges that we have made are really politically um generated and they are just meant to taint the image of ah my child.
00:57:30
Emmanuel Taban
And that that's my own observation. and And I feel that if the judiciary is actually given a platform ah to act independently and with sober mind, I think they would they would really let my child come out as a free person, as a free man.
00:57:44
Emmanuel Taban
And then I think that's that's an absolute decision that is likely to happen. i mean, and the possibility of the judiciary, even given their the space to act independently, they are likely to come out with ah a verdict that declares my child is a free person.
00:58:03
Emmanuel Taban
And that's likely to happen. But yeah as I said before, I really don't encourage the government to influence the judiciary. but But if if they must, I think, but I don't think they they will ever do there is a need for them to influence the decisions of the judiciary. But even the judiciary, if they're given to act independently, i think based on the evidence raised and all the claims, I think Machar and his colleagues might come out as free people.
00:58:29
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:58:31
Patrick Abure
Right. So so if i if I get you, well, in your own opinion, you would think that this is more of a political witch hunt than actually any case that exists against Machar.
00:58:43
Emmanuel Taban
that's that's That's my observation. That's according to my opinion. That's what i I'm seeing. it I'm seeing it. And and I think ah with with with the the current, you can easily see it from the current shift in the positions in the government. I mean,
00:59:03
Emmanuel Taban
you know the people the the charges were made when borne mail was the vice president economic caster and when uh the other guy was the minister of uh of justice and you know why does why why has it happened that uh these people were taken out at the same time and new person and so i mean i think some of the decisions that actually informs the decrease past i think are uh i based on the ongoing trial of my child perhaps so uh we we are likely to see really a very different shift in the next few days regarding the case of my child especially with the new people coming in power yeah because if if i feel like if if they really intend to to keep on with this case of my child there's no need to change
00:59:43
Patrick Abure
Interesting.
00:59:51
Emmanuel Taban
the minister. I mean, why change the minister? He is the one who initiated this. He is the Archangel general. He has probably better information than knowledge of how all this is started. So it it's it's it's it's it's in a very critical stage that you don't and you don't need to change that person, really, because the stage which the case is, you don't need to change a bring in some kind of instability within the the ministry. you should have he You should have kept that guy to just continue with the consistency of the case.
01:00:24
Emmanuel Taban
But suddenly he decided to to change it. So I think that clearly tells us that there is likelihood of it changing, and perhaps it will be in a positive way. Yeah.
01:00:34
Patrick Abure
Yeah, interesting.
01:00:35
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
01:00:36
Patrick Abure
So back to the issue of the appointment of McQuay as the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Affairs, ah have there been any statements yet from the lawyers of Reagma Char with regard to this appointment?
01:00:58
Patrick Abure
Or how are they reacting?
01:01:00
Emmanuel Taban
i I haven't read any reaction from the defence team.
01:01:07
Emmanuel Taban
but i and And also the silence speaks a lot. I mean, because I've i've seen that... I've seen this circulating online about... I can't confirm if it is true, but I'm seeing an ongoing ah debate about my child, Keir having like a private meeting with my child, this ongoing meeting, and there are plans of reinstating my child.
01:01:31
Emmanuel Taban
And this has been really ongoing on the social media. And since the appointment of my court, the justice, I've not seen any reaction from the the defense team regarding that changes.
01:01:42
Emmanuel Taban
And that perhaps will tell us that perhaps there's something going underground about this case that we might not understand. It can only be understood in the next few days when it actually takes the direction. So until that time, I think it's hard for us to to tell exactly what these intentions are for the new appointments.
01:02:01
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:02:02
Patrick Abure
I agree.
01:02:04
Emmanuel Taban
right.
01:02:06
Patrick Abure
Well, now looking maybe at one of interesting up when to my video the the appointment of the Inspector General of Police. So we see that the new person, Abraham Manuwa, has been appointed, um mean, was the Inspector General of Police.
01:02:31
Patrick Abure
for 21 months. And within a short time, he has been sacked.
01:02:38
Emmanuel Taban
who
01:02:38
Patrick Abure
I think he was one of the people who was replaced on Monday. And I'm just wondering, like why did Kir lose confidence in him so fast? Because it more or less mimics what has happened with Balmer.
01:02:52
Emmanuel Taban
yeah um i think i think i told you uh i i really have no doubt that uh Most of the the appointments, the the like those leaders who were taken out last in the last few days I think the decision was mainly influenced by the ongoing trial, if if I'm not mistaken.
01:03:17
Emmanuel Taban
Because ah look at the ah the the vice president, economic cluster, I'm told it was the one funding the in the entire case. I'm not saying it's true, but the allegations about that, the Minister of Justice was the one that came up with the charges against Machar.
01:03:36
Emmanuel Taban
And the police as well, they were part of this incident as well, because I think one one of the one of the the the police ah guy was acting as the investigator. So these are the people who actually carried out the entire investigation of of this case. and And they were looking at if my child was really involved in. And being the inspector general of the police of the country, so that means he has really upper information in hands on this issue.
01:04:03
Emmanuel Taban
I feel like ah ah changing these people was really informed by ongoing trial for Machar. So the police, who were part of the the the the prosecution, who acting as the investigation team, because we among the the the prosecution team, we have the the lawyers, we have the investigation team, we have the witnesses, and also these guys were all part of it. and and I feel the the decisions to to take out the the Inspector General Police was as well informed by the ongoing trial for my child.
01:04:37
Emmanuel Taban
So um I'm seeing like the major changes that happened last week were mainly informed by the ongoing trial. Yeah.
01:04:46
Patrick Abure
That is quite interesting. um So I have read comments online that suggest that
01:04:48
Emmanuel Taban
right.
01:04:57
Patrick Abure
Manuot, I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, but yeah, this Manuot who was basically removed, the allegations that he had refused to protesters or to order the shooting of protesters. I don't know if you've come across anything like this.
01:05:18
Patrick Abure
And I'm just wondering, like, if you know anything about this recording and this particular incident.
01:05:27
Emmanuel Taban
I haven't really gotten into knowing so much about the former ah Inspector General Police. so um And also, I didn't come across the story of him refusing to sue the protesters. But if I told there such information, and I feel that...
01:05:51
Emmanuel Taban
it it It might have also influenced it. But even why why why would someone be removed on the basis of refusing to suit protesters? Isn't it the right way not to to do that? is Is that not the right way, that when someone is protesting, you don't have to suit it? I mean, there's no reason why someone should be removed on that basis.
01:06:10
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, when a police the major role of the police the police is supposed to keep law and order. So if you're suiting protesters simply for just protesting, then That's not keeping the law of the country. The law of the country gives the people the right to protest.
01:06:27
Emmanuel Taban
So as an Inspector General Police, it is your duty not to do actually order people to be sought. The protesters, not only protesters, but to protect the entire making sure that people in the country adhere to the laws and there is order in every public space and everywhere across the country. So I think it will be unfortunate if it is true that the reason for his removal was because he refused to give an order to suit protesters.
01:06:54
Emmanuel Taban
I think that's that's unfortunate. But as I said, um I never come across that comment. And also, I haven't gotten so much here into knowing about their replace the replaced IDP. So ah but yeah, it should be unfortunate if that is the reason for his removal.
01:07:12
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:07:13
Patrick Abure
Right.
01:07:15
Patrick Abure
So on the issue of react maturity trial, there are comments online that suggest that on Monday, when the decrease were read or being read security around his house doubled.
01:07:33
Patrick Abure
Should do we read this as basically a routine precaution? Or is that like more like a preparation for something bigger?
01:07:41
Emmanuel Taban
I don't see it like as a preparation for something because ah even before the the the trial started, Machai was placed under, and like the other co-accused who I think kept in ah in real detention, Machai has always been put under house arrest. I mean, he is in his home.
01:08:02
Emmanuel Taban
And therefore, if you are in your home, definitely you'll have to be if you're under home arrest, so there is a possibility of ah people being around you. and and And I think the reason why maybe they beefed up the much security around his home is because ah of the intensity of ah the the decrease that were issued last night. you know Perhaps people see that maybe they there could be ah well anything coming up because of the degree decrease issued.
01:08:34
Emmanuel Taban
And maybe the military or the police try to just increase on the deployment around his home. But I don't see it like as a as a signal for something but coming up. I mean, it's a routine. If he is put under house arrest, then there's need to deploy security personnel around his home to but not only, you know, not only to protect him, but also to make sure that he does not escape or something else. So Yeah, but I think if there is an increase in deployment of um police around his home, it's it's it's it's not mainly because something else bad is coming up. I don't see it that way.
01:09:17
Patrick Abure
Interesting.
Peace Agreement and Political Stability
01:09:18
Patrick Abure
So if you look at the decrees that were read on Monday, and when you look at all of them together, do they signal that the 2018 peace agreement is effectively dead?
01:09:34
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, the peace agreement, I will say ah if if i'm given the out would I even declared it that before the recent decrease. I mean, because If we look at the peace agreement, um the agreement is ah a composition. I mean, it it came out as a result of different warring parties coming together.
01:10:00
Emmanuel Taban
We have the SPLM in government. We have the SPLM I.O. We have a South Sudan Opposition Alliance. We have the political detainees. and arab people So this this these ah all come i mean come together and formed the peace agreement.
01:10:16
Emmanuel Taban
And therefore, the peace agreement, whereas it gave powers to the president to actually make appointments, but it didn't give like these absolute powers. And it said that in an event where there is need to create some kind of ah maybe appointments, it should be done in consultation with all parties. especially the SPLMI. And over and over again, I've seen that. I think the president has taken like um not a a unilateral process of making an appointment. I mean, he has taken it like his personal decision, deciding on his own and making appointment. And that is the
01:10:54
Emmanuel Taban
clearly against the peace agreement. We have seen the the peace agreement, I mean, violated in so many cases where um the country is, even even in ah in in in March this year, where there was violation of the Sisyphe fire, where in Nasir there was exchange between the government. We have seen attacks in different parts of the country, in Morobu, in terms of Nimule Road, where where, I mean, in the community fight, that is mainly because of SPLMIO and the SPLM party. I mean,
01:11:22
Emmanuel Taban
To me, this agreement has not only been dead from last week, but even before that. So um I think ah the decrease issued is a clear manifestation that it's it's actually it's it's dead right now.
01:11:38
Emmanuel Taban
We have seen elections being postponed, not once, not twice, but so many times. oh We have seen the... lack of goodwill and and and political goodwill is shown by the leaders to actually take the country out of the transitional period, ah which is, I think, is deliberate. So,
01:12:01
Emmanuel Taban
And this clearly tells us that the agreement has not been followed by all the parties, not only the SPLM in government, but also the SPLMIO and other parties to the to the agreement.
01:12:14
Emmanuel Taban
So I feel it's not only last week that the agreement is dead, but the agreement has always been dead. So the thing we are seeing is that the country is running on the mercy of of God. So yeah, it's not informed, it's not run based on the the agreement.
Election Readiness and Challenges
01:12:33
Emmanuel Taban
That's what to some extent, maybe a few ah instances we can define to the agreement. But most times I think it's not run by what is stipulated in the in the in the agreement.
01:12:47
Patrick Abure
That is a very interesting take.
01:12:49
Emmanuel Taban
right. Mm hmm.
01:12:50
Patrick Abure
Yeah, and I understand, for example, that we are supposed to have our next elections 2026. And I'm just wondering, like, for you, you think that is possible? Are we going to see that happening?
01:13:08
Emmanuel Taban
i I think um I would be the i'll be the first person to to to say no for an election next year. evato were having I would rather opt for having an extension in the transitional period than having an election next year.
01:13:25
Emmanuel Taban
Because ah ah ah what is having an election? I mean, they there they are prerequisites for having an elections. before you have an election, you need to carry out the at least population census in the country that clearly informs the voter register, that gets the the National Electoral Commission gets to know how many people in the country, how many are in the in the voting age category that entails us that maybe in these elections, we have this number of people that are expected to go and vote and and
01:14:02
Emmanuel Taban
We get to know them so that it informs the results of an election. We need to have a permanent constitution, a constitution that clearly informs a country how it's supposed to be governed. We don't have that done yet. We don't have a permanent constitution.
01:14:15
Emmanuel Taban
For us to go into an election, we have we need to have like an open space given to all political parties to operate. without ah without them being ah mistreated, they're given the freedom to the freedom of association is given. I mean, all these are not actually, we're not seeing them happening right now in the country. And therefore, if we get tempted to get into an election next year,
01:14:38
Emmanuel Taban
I think that would be one of the worst things that will happen for the country. The country will would really not be on the right side. I really want us to have a a credible election, not just an election. And elections where um when we conduct it and the results issued, you clearly see that this is the will of the people. And the person who loses does not have to come out and and and detest the risks contest the results and maybe try to ah defect and again come back and get the country back to war.
01:15:09
Emmanuel Taban
We need a credible election that is conducted in a free and fair manner. And I feel there's no sign that the country is heading towards an election next year.
01:15:19
Emmanuel Taban
Uganda is heading towards an election, I think, early next year, in January or so. But we can clearly see that happening right from last year that the country is getting towards an election. You can see the campaign more in the country. The the country is getting, Kenya is heading towards an election 2027, but even right now you can see all the processes. You can see the moods of the country is, you can easily see that it's it's an election mode.
01:15:47
Emmanuel Taban
And we don't see any anything happening right now in South Sudan. And we are only like 12 months away towards 2026 December, respected the date for election. So I don't think we will have an election in 2026. I would rather a the encourage us to have an extension than having an election next year.
01:16:09
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:16:10
Patrick Abure
Or are elections cancelled indefinitely? Or are elections cancelled indefinitely?
01:16:14
Emmanuel Taban
Sorry?
01:16:18
Emmanuel Taban
No, I wouldn't encourage elections to be cancelled indefinitely. I mean, um we should we should we should give ourselves, I think, ah ah a a very good number of years, and then we work towards that. in every As I said before, tell clearly it's just a lack of political will from our leaders to really ah make sure we could have elections next year if if the leaders are very, very serious about it.
01:16:48
Emmanuel Taban
But they really don't see that as something that they need to do it right now. But also having elections cancel indefinitely, that that that means so much to the country. We will likely get into the worst situations that will take us time to come out from it. So it's better to have an elections conducted in the next few years.
01:17:09
Emmanuel Taban
but not immediately next year. So we can give ourselves some time and make sure we have our constitution, permanent constitution established. We have a space open for political parties, but also individuals to act freely. We have population census that informs our voter register. We have, a I mean, we create a fair environment where elections are done in the most free and fair way. And that when the results comes out, no one doubts about it. And I think that's the most important thing.
01:17:38
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
Succession and Future Leadership
01:17:40
Patrick Abure
Yeah, hopefully we get to see that happen.
01:17:40
Emmanuel Taban
All
01:17:43
Patrick Abure
And so President Salva Kher is 74 years old and he has had lot of health issues recently.
01:17:55
Patrick Abure
and And I think you probably have seen him go to like UAE so many times for treatment and stuff like that. Who is being groomed as his successor?
01:18:08
Patrick Abure
Or do do any of the appointees that basically were appointed on Monday say anything about that?
01:18:16
Emmanuel Taban
um i wouldn't really say that the the president is grooming someone but we can easily see from his actions i mean the we can we can we can easily see as the the who who is right now within the government acting as the right hand of of the president.
01:18:36
Emmanuel Taban
So you don't have to really get deep into that before you realize. And and yeah, but I think ah i was I was saying this, that so many people claim that Adut is being actually groomed to the throne. and And there are people also who claim that even Adut is the de facto president. I mean, c he's actually doing, he's influencing, making most of the decisions right now indirectly. And the president is only occupying the position, but most of the decisions are being
01:19:07
Emmanuel Taban
met by her. But I was saying this, that if if I was really a dude, I wouldn't want to come into the presidency through that way. I mean, ah she is the daughter to the president. Yes, we accept that.
01:19:22
Emmanuel Taban
and And just like any other South Sudanese protected by the laws, he has the right to serve in any position that he's appointed to. And she is a South Sudanese. She is el land person. She is young and probably bears the hope of the young people of the country. But as a daughter that to the presidency, that alone is a privilege. Serving in that position of a special envoy, that is another privilege. So if I was a dude, I really wouldn't accept myself to come through that manner to the presidency. I would rather craft my own way. And and and that can i can do that. from the position that I'm serving in today, make sure I go across the country, engage the people, engage the young people. And and in case elections come, I can influence. I tell my dad that maybe this is the time I want to take leadership of the party.
01:20:10
Emmanuel Taban
go for the national convention and ask the people to vote for you to be the flag bearer of the SPLM party. Come through that manner. I think it it it it makes you well respected that than when you're just getting groomed that way, when you're getting when you're brought up to power through the way how maybe the president just handpicked you and put you there. i mean you lost respect from the people and people see you as nothing but just because you were daughter to the president. That's why you're quiet. But get it through the most a good way. I mean, we have seen sons and daughters of former presidents that have actually came to the presidency, not because they were just groomed that way and then picked, But they came through very, very interesting ways, and people live to respect them, especially when we look at Kenya right now.
01:20:59
Emmanuel Taban
The immediate former president is a son to the first president of the country, Uhuru Kenyatta. He was never handpicked. He came through all the necessary process, joined the political party, served in the lower position as a member of parliament, he served as a cabinet minister. He got to learn about how things are done. And then he went through leading the party, asking for nomination to be a flag bearer of the party, and he wins. He contested in elections, he fails, and then they again, try again, he wins. So that's how he should come. And right now, the only person that is respected in the country is Uhuru Kenyatta. He's respected more than the president. And that is because he he came through a very, very ah good way. And I expect a dude to come also through that manner. He shouldn't really be in rush.
01:21:44
Emmanuel Taban
to get into the throne. I mean, she's pretty young and an exposed person. Perhaps she understands how things are done in other countries. She had the privilege to maybe live in other good countries that ah have a good democracies. And i think that is the thing that she needs to bring back home.
01:22:01
Emmanuel Taban
Make sure that... I don't have any problem if she advises the president at that stage right now because that is her work. But make sure the decisions you're giving the president are the good ones that can easily make the country look better, create the the initiative. And when you do that, people get to love you naturally, not because you're daughter of the president. People even forget the fact that you're daughter of the president.
01:22:24
Emmanuel Taban
I always have the argument that in the next few years to come, we are not really, majority of South Sudanese who are exposed, majority of South Sudanese who are learned, who know how things are done in other countries, who who really have the interest that things get to be done the way how other countries are done, they're not necessarily going to look to their leaders because they come from the Dinka tribe or the New World or the Equatorians, they're not going to really get bothered so much when you're a daughter to the liberation fight. But all what they want is that you get to do the right thing at the right time, do the right thing for the country. That's all what matters in the next few years. And I think Adul is pretty young. Whereas many people believe that she's being groomed for the throne, I hold the view that she shouldn't take it that way.
01:23:13
Emmanuel Taban
She should always craft her own way of getting into power and she should get it through a very, very credible way, not just being handpicked and because he's a daughter to the president, that would mean so much ah negative to her if she accepts to be done in that way.
01:23:28
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:23:30
Patrick Abure
Yeah, she has to find her own path to the presidency.
01:23:32
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly right.
01:23:36
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I agree with you on that.
01:23:36
Emmanuel Taban
and And I think she is really a capable person, i would say. and And I don't doubt her her her abilities. I mean, she can easily create a very different part for herself and and and use it even to clean the image over of his father and i mean of her father and and and and and the SPLM party. She can revive the SPLM party into something interesting.
01:24:01
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, there's no any political party right now that that has the grassroots, like the SPLM Party. And I personally feel that if I am a registered voter and if I want to vote something, I mean, and the SPLM Party at all have the good leaders who...
01:24:20
Emmanuel Taban
really possess what I believe in, I'll definitely vote for the SPLM party because this is the party that everyone in the country grew up in. And they know that this is the party that actually had the interests of the people. And it's very easy just to go back to the drawing boards and know what this party represented before. What are the things they believed in?
Strategic International Relations
01:24:39
Emmanuel Taban
Bring back those things to life and and just implement them so easy. So can easily win the support of the people. Yeah.
01:24:46
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And we we look forward to seeing that happen.
01:24:47
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:24:51
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly, yeah,
01:24:53
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Any final new thoughts?
01:24:57
Emmanuel Taban
I do. I think one one more one more appointment that but also, there's the appointment of, a ah I think, an envoy to the Middle East, which is, I think, Monica Achoro or something else, I think, Monica Achoro.
01:25:09
Patrick Abure
Yes. Monica.
01:25:14
Patrick Abure
Yes, Monica at Chol at Gwek.
01:25:17
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, I think that that's really a very, very interesting thing that I am looking into right now. I'm not quite sure if we had the an envoy before or this is completely a new, a new, do you think it's it's a new thing, it's a new position or we had it before?
01:25:35
Patrick Abure
I think we did have it before because it it looks like she was just reinstated.
01:25:42
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:25:42
Patrick Abure
So it it it does appear to me that Acheol has actually served as an envoy before.
01:25:49
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Oh, yeah. but But also, I think her appointment to that to that position, especially the Middle East, clearly tells us about the South Sudan ah Middle East relations, especially, um you know, the only country right now that South Sudan is exporting the oil the UAE.
01:25:51
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:26:11
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, in the last In the last four years, the country, UAE, has been ah the one, I think, with 50% of the South Sudan oil. And I feel there is need really to to to strengthen that relationship between the Middle East and and and South Sudan, especially UAE. And I think that that that is the basis that actually informed that appointment. So it's it's also a very stra strategic one, especially given that the the country has been depending so much on the Middle East, especially the United Arab Emirates, in so many ways, by the way, and not only on the oil, but even in some kind of support. And that is where Key usually goes to every time for
01:26:48
Emmanuel Taban
what they think is a medical treatment, though um so far this year alone he has visited the UAE three times. So that that clearly tells us about the strategic ah ah importance of ah the Middle East but also the United Arab Emirates. So I think our appointment is a very strategic move as well to strengthen the relationship between the two countries right now.
01:27:12
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. And especially the fact that South Sudan only depends on oil the UAE is one of the countries that takes much of their country's oil. So a very, very strategic move there as well from President Kierke, I think. Yeah.
01:27:26
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. And hopefully, Monica will get to play a very significant role in revamping our oil sector.
01:27:32
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:27:34
Patrick Abure
Because I think at the moment, oil production is at the historical law, especially
Promising Appointments and Future Outlook
01:27:40
Emmanuel Taban
hmm. Exactly. That's right. Right.
01:27:40
Patrick Abure
from South Sudan.
01:27:45
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I wonder what she's going to do different.
01:27:45
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Yeah. Well, let's see what's going to happen here. That's how things are going to happen. And yeah, but all in all, very interesting. I mean, I would actually say that the out of all the the the appointments by Kir, I actually, i was impressed so much by the recent appointment that that was that was done.
01:28:08
Emmanuel Taban
And when we look at the east historical, i was so much I was so much disappointed at first when when when Peter Lambert, who was the then SPLM general secretary, was removed from his SD position and just disposed.
01:28:21
Emmanuel Taban
But I, because like um General Peter Lam, by the way, he has a very, is is ah is a is I think he's a South Sudanese Canadian as well. So
01:28:29
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
01:28:29
Emmanuel Taban
he has a ah very very very good uh history he taught i think in uh he was a a lecturer in one of the universities i think in calgary he taught in in calgary He has like a very, very strong foundation of the SPLM. In fact, he runs some of the chapters, the SPLM chapters here in diaspora but at some point. So he he is really a very, very good person, a well-learned person, and ah perhaps with good intentions for the country. And also, you know, serving in the SD position, it's it's a very prominent position that you get to.
01:29:04
Emmanuel Taban
actually advocate for reforms in the party and I think with his exposure to how things are done in other parts of the world, perhaps he would be the right person to bring in change. So I held the belief that or the view that Peter Lam was actually the right SD for that position, given the way how exposed he is. But when I saw him reinstated, there's i don't know if I don't know if he has a history in ah in the docket that he's appointed to.
01:29:29
Emmanuel Taban
That is one thing I need to find out. But I was happy when I saw him coming back again today to the cabinet as a minister of ah ah what? Of... ah
01:29:39
Patrick Abure
of roads and bridges.
01:29:40
Emmanuel Taban
of roads and and bridges. So, yeah, but it's it's it's ah it's ah it's a good move. Seeing him coming back, it's it's a very I'm always impressed when i see people who possess their credentials, people who have the ability to do things are pointed into position. I was as well impressed by Mabir Garang when he was appointed as the Minister of Environment and Energy. I mean, very incredible move by the president. We have seen how much, ah I mean, Mabir has been running his tomato movement. ah I mean, very, very important thing that clearly tells us he has a vision for ah the agriculture sector of the country and and and i mean they the and the the the environment as well. So it's it's it's a very strategic move and the appointment of Athena was absolutely amazing, taking Makwe to the justice docket, very strategic. and and and And I think everything was really, really working and the appointment made of Achol, again, that was a strategic
01:30:39
Emmanuel Taban
so much needed to create that relationship with Midori. So I think the entire appointment was really, really a very good one for me personally. I looked at it in this perspective and it it was one of the most amazing appointments. So many people were appointed, they were put on the right spot.
01:30:57
Emmanuel Taban
very very strategic these are the things that they are ex they have experted expertise in uh mcquay is it's a lawyer by a profession and the actor is a council and a judge he is up to serve in that position think i work professionally a journalist and he really deserve he probably know the ethics of public relations put in the information and government spokesperson position very strategic and mabir garang as well based on his history of uh wanting to i mean the agriculture kind of thing i think that that means so much and in all that was a very very good uh appointment by the president there yeah all right
01:31:35
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think for me, I really look to see the changes that these individuals will make in the country in the coming months and years, if at all they will be there for years anyway.
01:31:53
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:31:54
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:31:55
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's what we're hoping to.
01:31:55
Patrick Abure
So as we we wrap up, do you have any final thoughts?
01:32:00
Emmanuel Taban
um i I just hope that the the president gives a chance to these people to actually serve the country. I mean, it wouldn't look so much good when we have a these people in the next few months again removed from their position.
01:32:19
Emmanuel Taban
Let's give them at least time to serve and they deliver. unless Let's get to know what their intentions, what what do they have that they want to deliver to the people. it gives us the chance to identify the ability but also ah build institutions and build a good solutions that would solve the problem that our people are facing.
01:32:39
Emmanuel Taban
So I think ah that that is one thing that the president needs to
Podcast Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:32:43
Emmanuel Taban
do. Perhaps if there is need to make lots of changes, it doesn't really have to do with the cabinet. Perhaps the majority of the changes, if he wants to make it, if he has insecurity kind of feelings, then he should deal with the military. But let's leave the cabinet alone. Give the cabinet time so that it, it, it devolves some good, uh, time to, to work on some of the things that needs to be done. Yeah.
01:33:04
Patrick Abure
right so we can have a stable leadership yeah working to stabilize the country and its economy yeah well thank you so much emma for coming on to the spark it podcast again
01:33:08
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly. Yeah.
01:33:12
Emmanuel Taban
<unk> Exactly. That's right.
01:33:21
Emmanuel Taban
Thanks. No, thanks. buty No problem.
01:33:23
Patrick Abure
yeah and uh if you're listening you tuned in to this episode uh thank you very much and we hope that you can leave us a comment and contribute to this conversation
01:33:24
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:33:35
Patrick Abure
And this has been the Sparky Podcast. Take very good care of yourself. Until next time, peace.
01:33:42
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, very good one. I think there's the, I like the flow of connection.