Transcript
Patrick Abure: Welcome to the Spark It podcast, where we explore stories, experiences, and insights that spark a fire within, so you can make your next big move. I'm your host, Helen Kimaru, and I'm joined by our in-house political analyst, Emmanuel Taban. Emmanuel, welcome back to the pod.
Emmanuel: Thank you so much, Kimaru. I'm happy to be back.
Patrick Abure: Yeah, glad to have you here. And today, ah they did we are exploring a very, um quite a sad moment for Kenyans, the death of Raila Odinga, Kenya's longtime opposition leader and democracy icon.
Patrick Abure: It marks a turning point in the country's political history. For decades, Raila has shaped national debates, challenged presidential power, and fought for constitutional reforms that redefines Kenya's democracy.
Patrick Abure: And in this episode, we unpack how his passing reshapes Kenya's political landscape from the future of ODM and opposition politics to the balance of power with President William Ruto's government?
Patrick Abure: Will Raila's death weaken the opposition or will it open the door for a new generation of leaders? What does this moment mean for Kenya's democracy, the 2027 elections and the country's long fight for reform?
Patrick Abure: Coming as we explore Raila Odinga's legacy, his Kenya's political transition and the search for a new national voice in the post-Raila Emanuel, you are one of the people I know in my life who are very interested and invested in Kenyan politics.
Patrick Abure: What do you think about the death of Raila Odinga at this particular moment and how does it redefine the political landscape for Kenyans?
Emmanuel: Okay, thank you, Kimaru. I think not only Kenyans, but the entire African continent and people who love democracy are shocked by the news about the date of Kenya's former prime minister, the right honorable Raida Molodinga.
Emmanuel: I think ah the date of Raida came at a a time when so many people did not expect. And yes, as as is many people know that Raila has done so much for the country.
Emmanuel: He has been regarded as the champion of democracy.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: I mean, the freedom that so many Kenyans are enjoying today, it's because of their contribution, it's because of the suffering that Raila Malodinga went through at some point.
Emmanuel: At some point, he was jailed for having opinions that
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Resonate with so many of the Kenyan people, he was taken to prison, he stayed there almost for like six years. And that was because he dared to advocate for Kenya that looks at everybody equal, kenya a democratic Kenya that respects the rule of law.
Emmanuel: And the untimely debt of the former prime minister, I think is going to change the politics of Kenya
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: forever. The politics of Kenya is likely going to remain the same, starting from today onwards.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Because um you remember that he died at a time when
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: um the current incumbent president has been so much depending on him. i mean, like, Raila came at a very, very heightened moment where almost Ruto's government is about to fall.
Patrick Abure: Thank
Emmanuel: But then he came in and then gave a lifting hand to Ruto, and he has become an anchor of Ruto's government. So his absence, his debt will be so much fell by William Araf Samuel Ruto first, because I mean, and and also his death came at a time when his house, and the political party, the orange democratic movement has not been in the same, ah I mean, they they they they they are divided. So I feel this is going to set the politics of Kenya in the next few ah days. The politics of Kenya is not going to be the same again. We might see political parties, we might see politicians re strategizing towards
Emmanuel: ah ah uh uh 2027 and because of the absence of uh uh raila molodinga so we're likely to see that different politicians and political parties are actually going to come up with a different ah strategies on how they can be relevant to the kenyan people so the debt of raila molodinga will change the politics of the country forever starting from today onwards until 2027. yeah yeah
Patrick Abure: Yeah, honestly, I think I've already seen a lot of conversation online and how like these there's actually a lot of mixed reactions around these. There's people who sort of feel like he was holding the Kenyan um politics hostage to some extent because of how big his influence was.
Patrick Abure: Like whatever Raila would say, right yeah would easily go. Whatever, if you he's ah his handshaking with the government today, forming a broad-based government, that's where we are following.
Patrick Abure: So he's played such a ah big role. But even as before we even continue to dissect that, i would like ah for us to take a look back at Raila's contribution to Kenya's democracy.
Patrick Abure: And maybe for me, I could get started on his role, especially in the 80s and the 90s. He played a very key role in what we call ah Kenya's second liberation in the context of Kenya had always been one-party nation.
Patrick Abure: There was a monopoly for the Kanu government and we were not experiencing democracy at that point. Our parents gave us stories of what was happening and Kenya was not, um in the context of where we are at in 2025 right now, Kenya was doing so badly in the 80s and in the ninety s And with Raila and other people like Akina Matiba, they played such a big role for Kenya to be at the democratic party to be at a democratic nation, nation.
Patrick Abure: to be a multiparty a country which sort of opened us up to where we are at even having like a new constitution and stuff like that. So that has been one of his biggest contributions to Kenyan political landscape. What would you say for you stands out in the context of his role?
Emmanuel: I think Rayla being a a person in who has ah experienced so much. I mean, he is the only, ah he he until yesterday, he has been one of the ah the Kenyan politicians who has so much experience of the Kenyan
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: politics and therefore um i know so many people believe that rayla uh actually was uh carrying the monopoly of the kenyan politics because at some point so many people looked at him as someone who imposes leaders on him and to them they looked at him not as a good person but
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: I am looking at Raila at a very different angle. This is a guy who who has experience, and as an elder person in the country, of course, you wouldn't expect him to react to certain things the same way a young person does.
Emmanuel: i mean, young people, they are very extreme and they need like instant change.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: But as ah as an elder person like Raila who has experience,
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: he would always want things to get done in a very, very good way that does not actually impact so much in the country. Yes, you might have a disagreement with your opponents. You might not like the way how they do things, like what happened between ah when Ruto came in.
Patrick Abure: Mm.
Emmanuel: But Raila is one guy who understood that, yes, when we have is issues, ah you know in our past to have these issues fixed, one important thing that we need to do is we need to have a country first.
Emmanuel: And I believe that is one of the things that Raila has in his heart that I feel is going to miss in, ah that so many Kenyans are going to be missing.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: I mean, if If it wasn't Raila, we would be seeing Kenya in a very different state, right from last year, ah September 2024, from the Gen Z protest.
Emmanuel: But because he understood ah he had the country in his heart, therefore he came out and then he called for calm in the country. And just because of his call, the country had actually experienced some kind of calm.
Emmanuel: and And yes, I think that is one of the contributions, one of the things that is going to be missing in the Kenyan economy.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Someone who will bring the country down to calm when there is a political tension is happening in the country. And Raila has done that over and over again. He did it. So many people looked at it as, I mean, he did it in a way of the handshakes and all this.
Emmanuel: But yeah, that is how he has been playing his politics. That is how he has been bringing calm. into the Kenyan nation through handshake. So many people might regard him as a conman for doing all that. But I feel that is one of the qualities that every leader needs to have, that ah when we disagree, when we need change, when we need reforms in our country, the way in which we need these reforms to get done shouldn't be done in a way that can actually take our country back.
Emmanuel: We can opt for an alternative, which is peaceful, an alternative that we can discuss what needs to be done and that can actually be delivered i think that is the quality that is going to be missing in the kenyan society that is the personality that kenyans are going to miss so much someone who can bring the country to calm when there is so much tension and rila i believe the only person who has been doing that yes and i i believe really that kenyans are going to miss that so much
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Patrick Abure: And I think to just echo what you've said, ah this whole idea of ah the handshake type of government, ah people might look at it in different ways, but honestly speaking, just to also just maybe reinforce what you've said, why not for the handshake he had with Moikibaki in 2008, Kenya would have continued plunging in chaos And maybe the post-election violence would have been so bad.
Patrick Abure: And maybe the only handshake that has been a bit questionable for Kenyans, and which could maybe because of the political climate maybe ah changing a little bit, would be the handshake from last year with Ruto's government.
Patrick Abure: But they're the other handshakes that have happened before, I don't think Kenyans really questioned ah that in that way. But as you've said, for him, he's been in this game for so long.
Patrick Abure: And he i would say maybe to some big extent, he knew how to manage people. He knew how to play the cards and he knew what needed to be done so that he can manage people's expectations and maybe maintain some level of sanity in the political landscape for Kenya.
Patrick Abure: And that cannot actually be ignored. That's a quality that, as you said, should probably just be uploaded and um It should be seen. And so how do you think he managed, for example, to to you know to amass such amount of influence in Kenyan politics, even without ever becoming a president? Because I feel like for the last four general elections, he's vied to become a president. Well, even before, you know, yeah, for the last, I think, four general elections, he's vied to become a president, but never been a president.
Patrick Abure: How does a person amass such influence?
Emmanuel: Yeah, I think Raila, like he vied for, I think like five times, but he never succeeded.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And and he's the only guy who ah has been, i mean, like garnering so much influence and has been ah very, very important person in the politics of Kenya, even without holding any the presidential position.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And that clearly tells us that
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: for one to bring uh credible change in any society you necessarily don't have to be a president just like what happened in america in the u.s s in those uh years of uh uh martin luther king jr remember he has never been he never had the ambition of becoming the president but he has been a very very important person in the history of ah the united states and the civil rights movement so i i feel that raila's um
Patrick Abure: who
Patrick Abure: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: ah has been so much important in the Kenyan politics, even without holding that ah political position, because so many people looked at him, um i think it's just because of the contribution that he has done especially advocating for democracy making sure kenya has uh like the constitution that the kenyans are enjoying today and also he's his turn on a multi-party system or multi-parties in kenya i think all these small contributions met so many people to believe in raila so much that
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: even without him being the president, they still believe that he is the right person. They will still run to him when they need help. Even the presidents, at some point, most of them, when their government is about to go down, they go to Raila Molodinga and ask for his help because he has the trust of the Kenyan people.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: He's not only leader of the Luo Nganza, he's not only a leader of the Luo people, but he is a leader of all Kenyans. And therefore, in the last In the previous administrations, so many presidents who came in, none of them happened to come from the Luo nation or any other Kenyan nation, but mostly from the Kalenjin and the Kikuyus.
Emmanuel: But most of them still had to go to Raila Morodinga, even when he's not the president. So that clearly tells us that Raila Morodinga, his stance, his ideas resonate so much with the Kenyan people, and that when Kenyans want something to get done,
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: They, in most cases, run to Raila Moldo-Dinga because they believe in him so much. They couldn't just have him be the president of the country. So his contribution clearly tells us that even without you being a president or a leader of a country, you can still be destined to make changes in your country. And that is what exactly Raila has been doing for the last many, many decades in Kenya.
Emmanuel: Right.
Patrick Abure: And I totally agree with you. I think it's they they i think it's the level of consistency.
Emmanuel: Right.
Patrick Abure: From way back in the 90s when he was fighting for democracy, he's been consistent in his whatever he stands up for. He's not he's not necessarily wavered that much.
Patrick Abure: It's like this is what we are going for. this is yeah This is how we are we are going to head where wherever we want to go. And this is the road we take. So it's the consistent efforts.
Patrick Abure: that I would say has also helped him amass such amount of influence. And do you think his absence right now could open a door for general generational shift in leadership?
Patrick Abure: Like, for example, there's always been these traditional types of politics where it's the older people holding the ball and we play according to their tune.
Patrick Abure: do you think that will change?
Emmanuel: I 100% believe that that is going to change because um I think ah the ODM party has an opportunity at the moment to re-strategize and be so much relevant again.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Of course, so many people ah claim that, so many people, not i mean, not many, but the majority of the the Kenyan ah population believe that with the recent handshake of Raila Molodinga with Ruto, he has actually met the ODM party that has been in existence for the last 20 years to be irrelevant.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: So many people look at ODM as an irrelevant political party at the moment when because of the handshake, compared to when it was, like, some years ago.
Emmanuel: And I feel that the absence of right-handable Raila Molodinga will actually open ways for young leaders in ODM to take over and actually reform the party.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Because ah apart from... ah like like When we look right now at the the leadership of the orange democratic movement, who are you looking at as possible replacement for Raela Molodenga?
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Are you seeing that ah his brother? Of course not. ah looking Some of the main guys already in their oldest state, like of the governor of ah but of um what is his name?
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: ah The governor of CIA, Orengo, he's going to be
Patrick Abure: And Rengo. Yes.
Emmanuel: ah a replacement, the governor of Kisumu, Anyang Nyong'o. I don't think... So we have names that are still relevant, the likes of Edwin Sifuna, the likes of Babu Owino.
Emmanuel: These are people who can actually bring back the party to its golden days. So I feel that the demise of Raila Molodinga is actually going to open ways for these young leaders to come up because at the end of the day,
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: a So many people believe that Raila has been of so much influence in in the party and much of the decisions of the political party has been influenced by him, even putting giving political positions. So I feel the absence of Raila is going to open ways for young people like the likes of Edwin Sifuna and Honorable Babu Oweino to actually come out and take bold decision and leadership of the party and reform the party.
Emmanuel: ODM has an opportunity to revive again and be so much relevant and that can only be done when leadership is given to these young people the likes of Edwin Tifuna, the likes of Babu Owido so ODM still has a chance and it is up to these leaders to make the bold decision they have a chance to either take the leadership or let ODM disappear forever in the Kenyan politics yeah
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: Yeah. You've really touched on a very trending topic right now because I've seen a lot of conversation online on people speculating on who could be his risk replacement, especially at the party level.
Patrick Abure: And um you know you mentioned Babu and Sifuna. Do you think there could be maybe there could be sort of maybe he could have been grooming them to take over the party? Is that a possibility? Could we assume
Emmanuel: I mean, I i think bob Baba has really groomed so many leaders in in the Kenya. Even some of them are not in the ODIM.
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: Some of them are in Ruto's government.
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: He has groomed so many leaders.
Patrick Abure: True.
Emmanuel: And I feel one person that Baba has really groomed him so much has been Edwin Sifuna. And Edwin Sifuna, I mean, like he has been the SG of ODM for the last eight years, like eight good years.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: He has been.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: And he's the most famous SG in Kenya right now. Edwin Sifuna is the most famous SG, most eloquent, most articulated.
Patrick Abure: true
Emmanuel: He's well-spoken. He is one of the guys who is well-respected in Kenya right now.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And I believe that that has been, he's a student of Raila Molodinga. And I believe Raila has been grooming him. And over and over again, even during the handshake, during the broad-based government, in so many cases, Edwin Sifuna will come out and speak against the broad-based government.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And at some point, Raila will come out and and and stand with him, support him, saying what when Edwin Sifuna speaks, it is the decision of the party. So that clearly tells us that maybe Baba has been grooming Sifuna to be a very, very ah important person in the party.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: But again, in the opposite, a guy like Babu Owino, he has been an outcast in the ODIM of recent. I mean, he's not been liked by the likes of Babu.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And I feel that this is a moment for him right now. Babu Owino has the chance because he comes from the Lluo Nganza. He is is famous in Lluo right now.
Emmanuel: Only that he was rejected by the leadership of ODM, but he has support from the ground. So this is an opportunity for them.
Patrick Abure: Okay.
Emmanuel: It's a really great opportunity. And I believe that Baba has been grooming Sifuna so much and the absent
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: of baba it's going to play at the advantage of of babu owino and babu owino and edwin sifuna they have a very good working relationship you know of late they have been there making mean trends about reforming a new political wave uh kenya moja so i believe with that working relationship and their relevance probably relevant in the new nyanza nation uh region and then edwin sifuna in western or in the lawyer nation i mean
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: they could actually bring out a lot of crowds and they have the opportunity right now, mainly these two two leaders. And Babo has taught them very well and I believe they can be possible replacements.
Emmanuel: But i that will definitely depend on the decisions taken by the party.
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: They might opt for a different people, maybe Gladys Wanga or even other leaders. But yeah. Edwin Sifuna and Babu stands their chance of taking the leadership.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: And if they want ODM to be relevant and to exist for more years, then these two needs to be given a very, very good influence of position in the party.
Emmanuel: Right.
Patrick Abure: Yeah, I think actually that makes a ah lot of sense. And I like that you mentioned the broad-based government. ah Last year, after what happened with the Gen Z uprising here in Kenya, Raila, I remember there was this particular girl who was trending.
Patrick Abure: She told ah Baba, she was like, you know, it's our time. Just rest. We are going to protest on your behalf. And then, um i don't know, ah sometime later, the broad-based government was formed. ah Raila shook hands with the current president of Kenya.
Patrick Abure: And that that kind of brought a bit of bone of contention between ah now the opposition which is now Raila was like the face of opposition so him shaking hands with the current government that was seen as the government that was not for the people at that particular point Kenyans especially young Kenyans felt like they had been betrayed by him now upon his passing how do you feel like is there gonna be like an ah an altercation of balance between government and opposition?
Patrick Abure: do you think it's going, does it pose a risk for the executive powers in Kenya? Because I feel like he played such a big role that whatever he said in opposition, he kept the government in check yeah He provided some level of checks and balances.
Patrick Abure: And the most of these governments that have been in existence, as far as I'm concerned, they would probably either hand with him or listen to him or form some type of a deal.
Emmanuel: a
Patrick Abure: Now that he's gone, seeing what he had he was able to do when he was in opposition, how do you think Kenya, you know, how do we move forward as Kenyans?
Patrick Abure: And does it give now ah the Kenyan government unchecked executive powers because he's not there anymore?
Emmanuel: I think Raila's opposition role, i would say, came to an end the day he shook hands with ah William R.
Patrick Abure: Ruto.
Emmanuel: Sameruto and formed the broad-based government. From that time to his death, i mean, they have been working together with William Ruto and all plans and and and all developments, all things that Ruto has been advocating for, Rayla Molodinga has been supporting.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: He held hands with Ruto and And they were working together. And it is very clear it has been clear and in the eyes of so many Kenyans that ah they are building on a very good coalition towards 2027.
Emmanuel: There
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: a possibility there was a possibility that they're going to be working together in 2027. So ah from that day when they shook hands and formed the broad-based government, that was the time when his role as an opposition leader in Kenya And and the the the role of opposition, I think, shifted to the other side of the impeached former deputy president, Rigardi, and the likes of Kalonzo Musoka, Mata Karua, and Eugene Womalu.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: well I feel that um oh with the absence of Raila Molodinga, it's not really going to mean that ah the government is not going to be, or the government is going to have unchecked, ah I mean, they're not going to be held responsible for all their the the actions that they're going to take. We will still continue to have opposition.
Emmanuel: I mean, there are individuals who are allied to
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: the current opposition political parties or coalitions like the YPA, Patriotic Front, like the ah Democracy for People's Party, DAP Kenya and and all these PLP.
Emmanuel: So I believe that who allied to this political party who now call themselves the United Opposition, I think they're going to continue playing the role of the opposition because Raila was already in bed with Ruto, so they were working together.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: In fact, it is now i mean it was seen that the the opposition was now checking the likes of uh rila molodinga and brutal because they were working together so i believe his role or the role of opposition politics is still going to continue in uh in in in and kenya so it's not only raila who is going to in the railage not go with the the role of opposition politics
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: So still, the government is, the executive is still going to be in check and and and and opposition role is going to continue in Kenya.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Right. Right.
Patrick Abure: That's true. and And I think also, um and but as we had mentioned earlier, Raila was one person who was involved in almost all types of protests in Kenya.
Patrick Abure: he's but He was protesting the government. The government has done something small of he feels like it's oppressing its people. He's protesting on the street. I kind of feel like he normalized the um he normalized the culture of protest for Kenyans up until last year in 2024.
Patrick Abure: where now young Kenyans took up the mantle and they were like, you know what, we are going to do this for ourselves. So even as we talk about opposition, would also want us to maybe look at it in the context of the people.
Patrick Abure: The people themselves right now are also the opposition because I feel like at this point they are woke enough to know this is not the type of leadership we want. We want this, we want that.
Patrick Abure: We can go to the streets, where whether, you know, like people have, and we have talked about this in so many episodes here at the Spark It podcast, where we've talked about the power of social media, of advocacy and mobilizing.
Patrick Abure: Like right now, people can go online. We don't have to wait for Raila or another Raila, another person like Raila to mobilize ourselves. it's we We want to protest. We are unhappy. We do it. So i would also say that even we as a people are also an opposition to the government because we can we have sort of gotten and coten up to the culture and we we now can do this ourselves. We can stand up for ourselves.
Patrick Abure: We can say we don't want this type of leadership. This is what we prefer. So yeah, I think he did play such a big role in helping Kenyans get to that point of realizing that you, the people, also have the power to stand up for yourselves, which is quite commendable.
Patrick Abure: And yeah ah for a long time, he called himself a soldier of democracy. do you What does his absence mean for the strength and future of Kenya's demonst democratic institutions?
Emmanuel: I think the good thing about Reiler is I think he has been referred to as the champion of democracy, of course.
Patrick Abure: Because he was an embodiment. Sorry.
Emmanuel: And the good thing about him is that his fight for democracy was manifested through the and the the the establishment of the 2010 constitution.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And I feel that is what ah that is the print that he has delivered to the Kenyan people. And I feel that because of the existing 2010 constitution that is in play right now, and Kenya is still going to be a democratic state because they have their rules written down in form of constitution.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: even if raila molodinga is not going to be there the constitution of kenya that he has fought for is still going to exist so when people are talking about democracy when people who are going to demand about democratic rights they will always refer to the constitution that baba has been a very prominent part of so i think his absence is not really going to be uh attributed to also absence of democracy in the country because He has fought for the constitution and the constitution is already in existence and it's in play that so many people ref refer to most of the time if they want reforms.
Emmanuel: If they want things get done in a most democratic way, they don't refer to Baba, but they refer to the constitution that Baba fought for.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: So referring to the Constitution definitely means referring to him as well.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: So Baba is going to be living in the Kenyan society through the con Constitution that he has met. So I feel that his absence will never mean that democracy is going to die in Kenya.
Emmanuel: His absence is still going to make democracy continue because he has established his fought for the Constitution, which is being used in Kenya right now. And I feel Kenyans know that better.
Emmanuel: And even when he decided at some point to stand away from the protest,
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: Kenyans were still going on the war on protest because they were referring that it is our right and right in the cons constitution that we have the right to go and pick it and demonstrate. It's in the con constitution.
Emmanuel: They did not refer to Baba that Baba thought that we should protest, but they refer to the constitution. And I feel that even in the next coming years, they will continue doing the same.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: But referring to the constitution is a document that can deliver for them all their democratic rights. Right.
Patrick Abure: And now that he has also now that he's passed on, ah I feel like as we are talking about this, we can see clearly the role he's played in the Kenyan politics and he's been quite a figure. The following he had was almost cultic.
Patrick Abure: Do you think we now as Kenyans we will be able to move from personality driven politics to issue-based politics or are we like so stuck into political figures and you know we see them as demigods and whatever they say goes or do you think this changes
Emmanuel: One thing i i I, as I said, I think in and in another episode that we had that I like Kenya because, um ah i mean, Kenya is the only country in East Africa, I would say, that has, I mean, respect for democracy at some point.
Emmanuel: But I don't like the fact that the Kenyan politics is so much tied to individuals.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: Like, it's tied to kingpins. And when we're talking about... ah
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: ah the Luo nation, about the Luo politics, we are referring to Raila Molodenga.
Patrick Abure: in
Emmanuel: When we are talking about the politics in the Rift Valley, we are referring to William Ruto.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: When we are talking about the politics maybe in the central or mountain, we are referring to either Uhuru Kenyatta or Rigadi Kacha. We are talking about politics in the Akamba nation, we are referring to Kalonzo Musoka.
Emmanuel: I think that is one of the things that has really been affecting Kenya so much. So I think with the absence of Raila Odinga, it's going to change this this narrative, especially from the rural nation right now.
Emmanuel: But ah so many people would still, because I think the country is stuck to this kind of politics, I believe that the rural nation would still look for another person who can be a replacement for Raila Odinga, and they will still look
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: and that person is their kingpin and i i feel this will take time it will never disappear from the kenyan society it's never it's not going to disappear even even with the absence of raila the those are definitely going for someone who can be i mean similar to baba it can't be like baba but i mean someone who they can bestow their hope on him and and and look at him as a person who can go in and negotiate on their behalf and go mobilize for people to maybe
Patrick Abure: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: i mean, form of political coalitions towards and elections. And I think that will never disappear soon in the Kenyan politics.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: It has been happening for the last many decades, and it's not going to get out soon. Never. It's not going to get out so soon.
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: With absence of Barbara, I mean, the laws are definitely just good for a replacement.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Someone who... can do things the way baba was doing because even if it's baba only dying about the other regions they still do have the kingpins the akamba people still have kalonzo the kalijin still do have ruto maybe the the the kikuyus or the mountains still do uh uhuru or rigadi kachagua and and all these sorts of stuff so the politics of kingpin ship i think in kenya will take time to disappear it's not going to really uh disappear so soon even with the death of baba yeah right
Patrick Abure: Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick Abure: Wow. That makes a lot of sense. And I like the fact that you've talked about being a kingmaker because Baba was a king and a kingmaker himself. Because I remember even um in the last elections, you would hear stories of even from the party level when they are doing like their nominations, whatever he says goes like in his in his party.
Patrick Abure: Allegedly, that's what I know. Like if he says we are nominating Emmanuel for this particular seat, for this particular constituency, that's you. So he had so much influence even in his own political party that all you needed to do was probably be on his good side so that you could influence whether you get that.
Emmanuel: is
Patrick Abure: a nomination so that you could go to the election. So with such kind of influence and political power, and now that Kenya is headed to an election in 2027, how does this reshape politics, especially even from the most ah the most local level, even ah at a political party level to the national level?
Emmanuel: the
Emmanuel: i i One thing that I have really seen happening is what you've just talked about is that, you know, um so many people ah have been imposed.
Emmanuel: So many leaders have been imposed on the people because ah at some point because of Raya Molodinka, just because they stand with Baba. And therefore, because of that, Baba would choose them and pick them and just impose them.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: and and And I feel that with the absence of Baba, ah There are so many casualties that are going to emerge from his death. There are so many people who are feeling so hard the date of Baba, more than even Baba's closest family people, or even his wife.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Emmanuel: There are so many politicians who...
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: will have to re-strategize, will have to maybe consider their political moves carefully. When we look at, um there is by elections coming in shortly, I think next month in Kenya.
Patrick Abure: he
Emmanuel: And in in one of the constituencies in Migori County in Kasapul, because of the death of the former ah member of parliament, Bondo Were,
Patrick Abure: who
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: There is, Raila Molodinga handpicked the son of the former member of parliament, Boyd, to be his replacement, even when the people on the ground do not like him.
Emmanuel: You know, so many people in Kasapul liked the other guy called Aoko, but then Raila just unpicked him. So, and and this is not only the case with Kaspul.
Emmanuel: We have seen it even in Migori, in I think one of the constituencies that is Suba North or Suba South, where Junaid Muhammad represents, is a member of parliament.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: Junaid is not a part of that county. He's not from Migori. He's from northeastern, a Somali ah small person. But just because he stands with Baba, Baba brought him and imposed him to be a member of parliament of Suba.
Emmanuel: So I think Junaid is going to be one of the the the guy who is really going to feel the absence of Barbara, he has to re-strategize on his move because I think the politics of imposition of politicians on the people will come to stop, especially in the in the law nation.
Patrick Abure: Mm. Zowa.
Patrick Abure: Mm.
Emmanuel: We have seen that even with the current governor of Wanga, he was imposed by Barbara. Even the the governor of CIA, Orengo, he was imposed by Barbara. And most importantly, the governor of Nairobi right now, Johnson Sakaja,
Patrick Abure: Mm.
Emmanuel: This is a guy who will feel the absence because he has been building on Baba so much towards his 2027 ambition. So it is seen clearly he was going to be ordered by ODM to seek for re-election.
Patrick Abure: Mm.
Emmanuel: But with the absence of Baba, I think Sakajin needs to re-strategize. And the the politics of imposition, I feel, is going to come to a stop, especially in Lua.
Patrick Abure: Oh wow.
Patrick Abure: It's over. Yeah.
Emmanuel: There's no more imposition going to happen because Baba is normal.
Patrick Abure: Wow.
Emmanuel: Those who have been riding on his back will have to be relevant to the people, not just to Baba. And I think that is one thing that will change for but the good of the Lua people especially.
Patrick Abure: Yeah. well
Emmanuel: Because when Baba was alive, his words were considered final. When he said right, people go right.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: When he said we are doing this, people, I think his absence will a little bit like shift yeah the political narratives, especially in Luoy Nganza, because he's no more and there is no way people will be imposed when they are not liked.
Patrick Abure: Yeah.
Patrick Abure: her
Emmanuel: Politicians will be imposed when they not liked by by the common people. And think that is one important thing that Babuah's absence is going to create. It's going to bring in that change, especially in the Luoy Nganza.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: Yeah.
Patrick Abure: I think in that context, I like that point, particularly on the from the point of view of the people, ah because now they get to choose their own leaders and who they want.
Patrick Abure: And you talked about re-strategizing. So it seems like right now it's either that you re-strategize and appeal to the people or it's just going to be like a political death for some of the people who are holding... ah these particular cities, it's governors, it's um members of parliament, whichever, as long as it, now the the influence is gone, now its people can see through you and ask the relevant questions and vote for whoever they want in the upcoming elections, which is really important.
Emmanuel: a
Patrick Abure: Wow. So, um o When history books look back, what do you think Raila's legacy will mean for Kenya and for African politics on a broader level?
Emmanuel: I think, Rayla, ah ah right now, as I said, that Kenya is being a admired by neighboring countries, especially the countries in the region.
Emmanuel: They have referred to Kenya in most cases when they talk about respect to democracy, when they talk about giving people the right to go on the streets and protest, when they talk about
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: um and having people going towards an election and having ah different political dispensation, not one person is taking into power for over decades, they have referred to Kenya in that line, and I believe that that has been brought ined so much by so many people, and one of those persons is Raul Molo Dinka.
Patrick Abure: who
Emmanuel: So I believe that Raila to so many people, ah they look at him as a champion of democracy um that they have admired.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: And and and when you when you go on social media today and just see what people are posting, it's not only ah messages of ah condolences coming from Kenyans, but people across the world and the African continent.
Emmanuel: So this clearly tells us how people admire his leadership. And I feel that history will actually put him on the right side. He is on the right side of the history because he labored so much to have a country in the names of Kenya that so many people today are looking at it as a beacon of democracy. So many countries admire Kenya right now because of the the the democratic rights or principles that have been observed.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: I know to so many Kenyans, ah the country is not doing exactly what they expect, but to so many other people in other countries, they all they would want is what is happening in Kenya, but they couldn't have because of their leader.
Patrick Abure: yeah
Emmanuel: ah Kenya has been an admiration for so many countries and I feel that admiration this can be so much attached to Baba's contribution. So when we're talking about every good thing about Kenya, we cannot write Baba off from it.
Emmanuel: So Baba is not only seen as a champion of democracy for Kenya, but by the broader African continent.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: So that is how history will put him. Right.
Patrick Abure: Yeah, honestly, I also choose to remember Baba as a person who has fought for democracy for Kenya because i whatever was happening in the 90s, I think if that would have continued, honestly, we wouldn't be where we are at as Kenya and we wouldn't even be, people wouldn't be benchmarking, other countries wouldn't be benchmarking with us and our about democracy democrat and what that looks like. His contribution to the 2010 constitution reforms as getting a new constitution, he's definitely played such a key role.
Patrick Abure: And for me also the consistency he's shown in his political career is something I admire. I love his resilience and what he stood what he stood for for the longest time possible.
Patrick Abure: And that for me as a Kenyan, from my own personal point of view, I feel is something to be admired, honestly. And his legacy, honestly, lives on.
Patrick Abure: In the democracy, we get to enjoy every day. In the freedom of speech, we get to enjoy every day. In the fact that we we can have a peaceful country, work, play, and do all these things.
Patrick Abure: So um i'm I'm excited about what ah what's ahead what we are about to experience as Kenya. um And what, maybe in conclusion of this particular episode, what would be that key lesson you've taken from his life, his legacy, and his leadership as a person?
Emmanuel: um I think one important thing that I've learned from Baba's leadership is that you don't necessarily have to be a president of a country to bring about that change.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: you know Baba sought for presidency for more than four times, but he never got the chance.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: to be the president of Kenya. And to so many people, he is the person that so many Kenyans couldn't have as a president. So what I've learned from him is that you don't need to be a president of a country to bring change. You don't need to be a president of a country to be that relevant and influential to the politics of your country.
Emmanuel: All you need to do is be consistent, stand with what the people want, and therefore you can be like Baba.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: That's just' one important lesson that I've picked from him. Very, very, and importantly, consistency. When you stand with what the people want over and over again, people get trust to trust you more and they'll have to look at you and run to you whenever they need help.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Emmanuel: That is what I learned from his leadership.
Patrick Abure: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Abure: Wow. Yeah. um Yeah, honestly, I think you've concluded it that just the right way. And as ah we have our condolences to his family and to the rest of Kenya and everyone who believed in his leadership.
Patrick Abure: It comes at ah such a sad time honestly for Kenyans i I believe and even as we continue to keep the conversation going ah on social media I hope people get to remember him for all the good things he's been able to do in service of the country.
Patrick Abure: Thank you Emmanuel for gracing the podcast once again and for sharing with us your insights on this particular issue on Raila
Emmanuel: Thank
Patrick Abure: Molo's death and what that means for Kenya and the way forward. We appreciate appreciate you. And for our listeners and viewers, thank you always for tuning in to our podcast. We appreciate you. Yes, and I might have forgotten, please check out Emmanuel's podcast. It's called The Concerned Podcast, ah where he shares insight into different political landscapes for different countries.
Patrick Abure: um Yes. Until the next time, please subscribe to our YouTube channel, support us on our social media platforms. we see you. We appreciate you. It's been the Spark It Podcast, and I'm your host, Helen Kimaru.
Patrick Abure: Bye.
