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EP 28: South Sudan Elections 2026: Why Elections Without Reforms Could Be Dangerous for the Country's Future
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In this episode of the Spark It Podcast, we unpack South Sudan’s long transitional period, the 2018 revitalized peace agreement, and the repeated extensions that have delayed the country’s path to stability. We explain the purpose of the pre-transitional and transitional phases, the challenges of forming security arrangements, and why elections without key reforms, such as a permanent constitution, a census, and functional institutions, risk deepening insecurity. We also reflect on what ordinary South Sudanese need most: fairness, stability, and meaningful participation in shaping the country’s future. Tune in.
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Transcript
Emmanuel Taban's Yukon Experience
00:00:07
Patrick Abure
Emmanuel Taban, welcome back to Spark It podcast.
00:00:12
Emmanuel Taban
Thank you, Patrick. Thanks for having me again here. It's exciting always to be on this parking podcast.
00:00:19
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
00:00:19
Emmanuel Taban
Good to see you.
00:00:20
Patrick Abure
How are you feeling?
00:00:20
Emmanuel Taban
I'm doing good, man. It's just cold over here. Extremely cold. We're experiencing like temperatures of over minus 38 and yeah, but we're coping with it.
00:00:31
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:00:32
Patrick Abure
Minus 38. That's a lot.
00:00:34
Emmanuel Taban
Minus 38, it's crazy, man.
00:00:35
Patrick Abure
that's a lot
00:00:36
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:00:37
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I think here is like right now it's minus 11. Yeah,
00:00:42
Emmanuel Taban
Oh, that's nothing.
00:00:45
Patrick Abure
yeah it's not much.
00:00:46
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:00:46
Patrick Abure
Yesterday was minus one.
00:00:49
Emmanuel Taban
Oh, my god. That's good, man. That's a good one.
00:00:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I feel like Ontario is just much better in terms of weather compared to Yukon.
00:00:57
Emmanuel Taban
It is. Yeah, man. Yeah, but also I feel like, like if, if, if, like, I being in the Yuko, like it's, it's one of the, the proofs that you've been to Canada. I think maybe one time you should, should come this side. Yeah.
00:01:17
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:01:19
Patrick Abure
By the way, it's it's one of those places I plan to visit.
00:01:23
Emmanuel Taban
and and I feel like when you go back to Africa and you want to tell people stories about qualities, I mean, it won't make any sense that you've been to Canada.
00:01:34
Emmanuel Taban
So being in the Yukon, it's one of the, I mean, evidence that you've actually been to Canada. It's a good one. Yeah.
00:01:42
Patrick Abure
That is so true.
00:01:43
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. But yeah, it's it's as good. It's good one here. Everything is fine and you're coping up with the weather. Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:53
Patrick Abure
That's nice.
South Sudan's Transitional Journey
00:01:54
Patrick Abure
So I wanted us to chat a little bit about South Sudan, but in particular the peace agreement.
00:01:54
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:02:04
Patrick Abure
So South Sudan has been under a transitional period since 2018. And particularly governed by the peace agreement, the
00:02:04
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:02:14
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:02:21
Patrick Abure
revitalized peace agreement on the resolution of the conflict in South Sudan. And the transitional period has been extended for so many times, at least like over the past few years. And now there discussions around a planned election ah that is likely to happen in December, 2026.
00:02:48
Patrick Abure
twenty twenty six And I'm just wondering, like for listeners who might not have an idea, what is this transitional agreement a period and why is it such a big deal, especially for ordinary South Sidonese?
00:03:06
Emmanuel Taban
The transitional period, um just like the name suggests, and in respect with the situation in South Sudan, I think it's ah part of the the period that is stated in in the revitalized peace agreement on the resolution of conflict in South Sudan. And it's supposed to be that temporary period where South Sudan was to trans to be i mean transition from that that conflict into a democratic and and peaceful and and and stable state.
00:03:43
Emmanuel Taban
and And so when we look from 2018, there are mainly two phases, i would say, of the the transitional period. There's what we call the pre-transitional period, where it's supposed to be for eight months, and that was supposed to be at a time where the government supposed to form the security arrangements and all the institutional reforms.
00:04:07
Emmanuel Taban
And that was supposed to be taking like eight months. And then after that, then would have the transitional period, which is supposed to be for three years. So that was the time which was supposed to begin in 2020,
00:04:19
Emmanuel Taban
ah the unity government was supposed to be formed and and and that that brought in all the warring functions like the South Sudan, the SPLM government, the SPLM I.O., the former political detainees, the South Sudan Opposition Alliance and all other political parties.
00:04:35
Emmanuel Taban
um And we've seen that both the pre-transitional period and even the transitional period have been extended so many times.
Goals and Challenges of Power Sharing
00:04:43
Emmanuel Taban
so in in so uh the transitional period is mainly that temporary period where the country is supposed to be governed and then uh taken into a stable and peaceful democratic state where would have a elections and then the the the established government abolished i mean the one that was supposed to be governing in that period would be abolished after an election is formed so that was basically
00:05:10
Emmanuel Taban
the transitional period that was stated in the agreement that was signed in 2018 in Addis Ababa. Yeah.
00:05:17
Patrick Abure
Right.
00:05:18
Patrick Abure
And so in a nutshell, the transitional period is a power sharing arrangement that is supposed to lead to an election and permanent systems like the permanent constitution and stuff like that.
00:05:18
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:05:38
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly, that's that's right, because well when we look at the the structure of the government that is is in place today in South Sudan, you'd realize that it's a very weird and, and and um I mean, a structure that does not exist in a normal state.
00:05:57
Emmanuel Taban
And ah the ah the the peace agreement actually crafted that structure so it could actually um bring in on board like almost all the warring parties, those who feel dissatisfied and who feel they were maybe removed from the 2013 cabinet resupport, so that this agreement bring them all on board and then they will be working together in order to take the country into a democratic uh state or level so yeah that's that's basically it' so it's about the power sharing period where all the the functions were supposed to be brought into government and work into taking the country into a stable state yeah you're right
00:06:36
Patrick Abure
Right. Yeah, I agree with you. and And I think probably just something to add on to what you have already said is that the delays and extensions that we have seen over the years do affect people's trust.
00:06:57
Patrick Abure
of this very peace agreement, but also does affect, I think, services and even like security. And I think we have seen that over the years because like now we're in 2025 and ideally the the eight months and the and they three years for the transitional period have ended a long time ago.
00:07:24
Patrick Abure
but we haven't seen any election or some of the institutions that are supposed have been rebuilt within this period.
00:07:24
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:07:34
Emmanuel Taban
That's right. That's totally right. I mean, you know, and and in most cases, I always argue that um the people who drafted that peace agreement and its content, I feel like there was... um like an intentional plan to just make the country remain stagnant in this way.
00:07:55
Emmanuel Taban
Because you can create a government that that that actually brings all these people, and then also you task them with the responsibility of i mean taking the country into into i mean into into an election in order for it to have a new government. because There's so many people who feel that, in other words, so many people who actually today in the government, they were only brought in into the government because of the peace argument agreement. But if we look at their
00:08:26
Emmanuel Taban
capability or the ability to actually get into a government through an electoral process, most of them will not get there. So when you give these people the power to extend the transitional period, obviously, because they they know that once we go into an election where people are elected, they probably will miss out. So they will have the the the deliberate move to actually make an extension in order to prolong their stay in power. And I think that is the weakness of the peace agreement.
00:08:56
Emmanuel Taban
and and And that is actually hurting South Sudanese so much. It's hurting them a lot. Yeah.
00:09:02
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I definitely agree with you with on that.
00:09:07
Emmanuel Taban
All right.
00:09:08
Patrick Abure
yeah There are actually recent reports that do suggest that the presidency has sat in a recent meeting and that the presidency has ruled out NMO extensions of the transitional period, which I think is good news.
00:09:34
Patrick Abure
And at the same time, maybe not good news, but
Election Plans Amidst Unmet Prerequisites
00:09:38
Patrick Abure
I think the reports circulating around to suggest that the presidency is pushing to have an election in December, 2026. And I'm just maybe...
00:09:53
Patrick Abure
to get more from you who follow these things very closely, what exactly did the presidency decide in the recent meeting? And also, what message are they trying to send to the public or even the international community?
00:10:08
Patrick Abure
Because for all these years, it has been the presidency like, you know, let's extend. And now all of a sudden, it's like, no, let's have these elections.
00:10:21
Emmanuel Taban
Right. And Patrick, ah if if you may recall, the the last time when ah the transitional period was extended, the president came out and said this would be the final time for them to extend the elections.
00:10:25
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:10:38
Emmanuel Taban
And they they they won't do it again. That is what they said. And just last week, on Wednesday, and There was a meeting, as they said, i think that was when on Friday, the the minister in the office of the the president called African Monday came out and He gave a a brief on a briefing on what actually transpired between ah the presidency. They call it a presidency, but there was one prominent person who was missing there, and that was Machar. So in the presidency, they meant ah the president of the Republic of South Sudan and then the all other four vice president, then excluding Machar.
00:11:19
Emmanuel Taban
And also in that meeting were some of the prominent us senior leaders to the signatories of the peace agreement, members of the the former detainees, the South Student Opposition Alliance and all other functions that were part of the the peace agreement. So they had a meeting, and in that meeting they agreed that the country would not extend the transition period anymore. They will actually not pass point elections. They will stand with the decision that the country will go for polls in December 22nd, 2026, that is next year. And they say that ah the country will go to these elections
00:11:58
Emmanuel Taban
without some of the most prominent elements stated in the peace agreement, which suggests that these elements should be first met before the country gets into an election. And one of them is a permanent constitution.
00:12:12
Emmanuel Taban
the second of but is The second of it is the the population census. So the presidency and then the senior leadership of some of the the signatories to the peace argument agreement,
00:12:24
Emmanuel Taban
the apparently agreed that they will take the country to an elections without the permanent constitution and without even carrying the population census. So that's what they agreed on on Wednesday.
00:12:36
Emmanuel Taban
And the nation was briefed on that on Friday, I think yesterday or so, about the the meeting that was held by the president. So that's what they agreed on, that regardless of the country not having a permanent constitution and even not having done population census,
00:12:54
Emmanuel Taban
The country is heading towards elections. Oh, the country is going for an election next year in December. That's what they agreed on. And that meeting was done in absence of Machar, who was the most prominent signatory to it.
00:13:02
Patrick Abure
That,
00:13:08
Emmanuel Taban
There was one guy called the Stephen Parr. He is actually one of the guys who leads the SPLMIO function that actually broke out from the mainstream. But still, there are so many people who ah stand with Machar, and they they actually distant themselves away from that meeting that was held by the presidency. And they say,
00:13:29
Emmanuel Taban
that's not their stand because a country they can head for an election without a permanent constitution and without the population sense has been carried out because these two elements are really really very prominent a for any country to head toward an election they are very very um these are are these are these are interesting things that first needs to be done before an election is done just like stated in the peace agreement but unfortunately ah the government the the government and then the presidency agreed that even without this being done, they would still go for an election. So that was the meeting that was held on Wednesday by the presidency and some of the top senior leadership of the signatories to the peace agreement.
00:14:12
Patrick Abure
Right. And so basically, as South Sudanese, we should not expect to see a census conducted leading up to these elections in December 2026.
00:14:32
Patrick Abure
we also should forget about a permanent constitution for now.
00:14:37
Patrick Abure
And right. And so these this look like a agreement is a form of like the government coming up to show commitment to holding elections on time. But I really do think that it so much appears like a facade because the same people had enough time over the years to have conducted a census
00:14:37
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's what they said.
00:15:13
Patrick Abure
and to have done all the processes required for South Sudan to have a permanent constitution, ideally by now?
00:15:24
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:15:24
Patrick Abure
Don't you think so?
00:15:25
Emmanuel Taban
They really had so much time. I think, of I just have the feeling that most of the the steps taken by the government to extend these, I mean, it's these these are all deliberate efforts. They really don't want ah the country to have a permanent cons constitution because they know um the the importance of that and they know how they would actually limit their powers as as leaders. and They know how this is going to abolish the government that was established through the peace agreement. So every single step, I feel it was planned kind of thing. Because, I mean, the piece the transitional period was supposed to end in 2023 on February 22nd. So you can imagine from 2023 and 2025 were like two years.
00:16:16
Emmanuel Taban
and and and And the government still can't get like a... and a permanent constitution and then ah conduct population census. So I think this was a deliberate move by the leaders of a that is in the country just to make it hard to attain a permanent constitution, but also carry population census.
00:16:38
Emmanuel Taban
and And yeah, that's that's my feeling. I feel it's a deliberate move, but that's a dangerous one. I feel it's really, really dangerous move to go for an election without permanent constitution and conducting population census.
00:16:51
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:16:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah. I mean, they the idea
00:16:56
Emmanuel Taban
is.
00:17:00
Patrick Abure
ah making changes to the peace deal, the peace agreement, ah and then excluding some of the most crucial parts, I think it's a risky thing to do.
00:17:16
Emmanuel Taban
is
00:17:16
Patrick Abure
and And I know, like, ah aside from the co-institution, and the elections, in particular, the census that ideally should have been done leading up to the elections. What are other changes from this meeting that they suggest to make to the peace deal, aside from the constitution and the census that they think are necessary?
00:17:45
Emmanuel Taban
I think ah some of the so some of the things that they agreed to go on without them is up the reforms, the institutional reforms, because as as I said before, that ah before the elections we're supposed to have a permanent constitution we're supposed to have a population census conducted and we're also supposed to have some kind of institutional reforms carried out and in this case we have institutions like the national mean the electoral commissions so these are some of the the institutions that are supposed to be reformed so it can have the capacity to actually handle a national election but these things are not done So when we look at the impact of all these excluded as the country heads towards an election, I feel it's so huge.
00:18:03
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:18:37
Emmanuel Taban
Because one, if we're not going to have a permanent con constitution, What does it imply? What does it mean if we go for an election and then have a government established and then we have a permanent constitution later on post-elections? What does it mean? One, this means that if a government is formed, it doesn't matter if it is the SPLM I.O. that forms the government or the SPLM mainstream or any other political party forms the government.
00:19:05
Emmanuel Taban
and there's no constitution so the government of that day will probably have the upper hands of manipulating the constitution they can have it and therefore wish to if they want to eliminate time limits from there if they want to create a permanent constitution where there's no time limits there's no age limit if they want to to to create a constitution where the president has absolute powers he appoints and his powers are unchecked so that is the problem we're not going to change it because the government of that day will have the powers to influence it.
00:19:40
Emmanuel Taban
That is the impact of going into an election without a permanent constitution. The impact of going into an election without conducting population census. One, what what is the what what is the use of ah of having the population of the country determined? Demographics is very important in determining results of an election. One, it it informs us of the voter register. It informs us how many people are in the country. And therefore,
00:20:04
Emmanuel Taban
um when population census is carried out, it also informs the entire electoral constitution to actually um create constituencies because we know that we have this number of people in this place and therefore when we have this number of people, this specific place qualifies to be a constituency and therefore we should have a representative in the parliament that is to represent this number of people. But if we don't have that established, so how are we going to determine the number of constituencies that we are going to be electing in 2026.
00:20:38
Emmanuel Taban
But also the importance of having a population census is such that in case the country goes towards an election and at some point, maybe those who are aspiring to be the leaders or those candidates in the presidency who are who are actually contesting for the presidency, one of them, or even those who are going to be elected as governors, any of them feel feels that they are not being, I mean, they are being rigged in the elections.
00:21:04
Emmanuel Taban
and their evidence is supposed to be based on the numbers, they would say, These are the numbers of people, maybe ah we have ah this number of people manipulated. They are not actually there, but these are ghost voters because we have the electoral commission, the population census, we have this number of people who are supposed to be voting for us, but where where have we gotten this much number?
00:21:24
Emmanuel Taban
These are ghost names, and therefore they should up they they will have like the evidence to support them themselves. That is the important in the population census. So not having all these means that ah it's it's it's going to be very hard to actually, go into an election. But also one of the other elements that the presidency has actually decided to just ah ignore it is the institutional reforms.
00:21:49
Emmanuel Taban
That is one of the things that's supposed to be done. So we do have institutions like the electoral commissions that is supposed to be reformed, so that it acts independently. It is given the capacity to actually handle national elections without influence of the executive or any other branch of the government. So if all these reforms are not done, so it is very, very dangerous to go for an election next year. and And these are the things that the government has just thrown them in today into the dustbin and they say this doesn't matter. And this don't matter, actually. And then they've agreed to go for an election without all these prominent elements that are supposed to be done before an election.
00:22:26
Emmanuel Taban
So it's unfortunate.
00:22:29
Patrick Abure
Definitely is.
00:22:30
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And I think I 100% agree with your point of view. and
00:22:30
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:22:38
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:22:39
Patrick Abure
And honestly, like you, I do agree with these critics online who say that revising the peace agreement instead of completing it could weaken safeguards.
00:22:53
Patrick Abure
that were meant to, you know, protect his citizens and prevent a return to war, basically, for South Sudan. And I think really what you've said fits nicely into that.
00:23:07
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:23:08
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Yeah. yeah
00:23:10
Patrick Abure
But also I feel like, you know, for for us as South Sudanese, I feel that the more this goes on and important provisions of the peace agreement are delayed or left out or not implemented at all, I think it makes us feel cheated.
00:23:32
Emmanuel Taban
that's That's right. I think the majority of South Sudan seems to be really excited to go for an election because this this is a country where almost 90% of the people have never casted a vote.
00:23:47
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, if I told there are people who participated in and in any a maybe electoral process, it's the ones, those who who were there in 2000, I mean, those who were 18 and above in 2010.
00:23:59
Emmanuel Taban
and also maybe those who participated in the referendum. But apart from that, we didn't have any other electoral process that was carried out. So I feel so many South Sudanese are excited and they really don't care what is going to be the impact of going for an election in 2026. So they just feel desperate and they feel this is this is the only way we can have change if we go to an election. But they don't look at the way how the country is heading towards an election. so Yeah, but also, and and I think this this this this is really a very bad move. And it's a bad one to many South Sudanese.
00:24:35
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, it's it's it's unfortunate.
00:24:39
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I think it is.
00:24:40
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:24:41
Patrick Abure
Yeah. It would be nice for us to see dead get the peace agreement implemented to the later.
00:24:54
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
00:24:55
Patrick Abure
I think it would be good for us as a country But it so appears that maybe, to some extent, there is a lack of political will, especially amongst our leaders and parties to the peace agreement.
00:25:14
Emmanuel Taban
That's true.
00:25:15
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:25:16
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. There is a lack of political will from the leaders.
00:25:17
Patrick Abure
I...
00:25:20
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, most of them are just reluctant. They really are very reluctant in taking the country into the next step of the peace agreement. agreement they They just seem stagnant and i have no idea of what next to do.
00:25:33
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:25:34
Patrick Abure
Yeah. All they do, I genuinely do not believe that they do not know what to do. I genuinely do believe that they do know what to do, but they are more focused on keeping themselves in power. And so that takes priority over, for example,
00:26:03
Patrick Abure
anything around implementation of the peace agreement.
00:26:08
Emmanuel Taban
That's true. Right.
00:26:10
Patrick Abure
Yeah. and And speaking of that, um so I think some members of the SPLM-IO, Dr. Yagmachari's party have come out to reject the findings or the outcome of the presidency's recent meeting.
00:26:34
Patrick Abure
and And I remember like a couple of them were like, the meeting was not inclusive, which I think is something you mentioned when we started this conversation.
00:26:34
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right.
00:26:46
Patrick Abure
And that um they have been excluded because Dr. Ryakmachar is under house arrest up to now and also on trial.
00:26:58
Patrick Abure
or Like, in your own opinion, why do you think the SPLMIO is rejecting the outcomes of the presidency? Although I would think this is probably something they have always wanted, to have an election.
00:27:15
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, you know, oh some sometimes politics can be a little bit tricky because when when we look at the peace agreement, I mean, the most focus to this peace agreement, apart from President Keir, I mean, we can obviously see it's my chart.
00:27:34
Emmanuel Taban
Even all those who came to be the political, I mean, former detainees, the South-State Opposition Alliance, most of these people in the on-start of the conflict that happened in 2013, most of them were all under my chart, right?
00:27:50
Emmanuel Taban
So, and therefore, I think it it would be it will be like, ah it it would won't really make any sense if we are talking about making any reforms, if you are talking about having an elections in 2026, if you are talking about making an amendment to to the peace agreement if you are talking about that.
00:28:12
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, it will look more of a comedy if we don't bring in Machak. Because what is the peace i agreement meant without Machak? What is having an election in 2020? It's not that I'm supporting Machak.
00:28:24
Emmanuel Taban
I'm not his supporter and I don't buy his, I mean, his politics at some point, but For us to have really a piece that makes sense, we should always have him on the table. We should have we should consider the level of influence that he has on the opposition.
00:28:47
Emmanuel Taban
He commands, i mean, if not the largest opposition, he commands the largest opposition, would say, in the entire country. Don't even bring in Korean opposition alliance or the former DGNs, but Macharelón and his followers, they command, I mean, he commands a lot.
00:29:05
Emmanuel Taban
And therefore, if we are talking about any peace, we should always bring my child in. And I feel that these SPLMIO guys who came out and distanced themselves from the meeting that was held on Wednesday, I think they were within their
Exclusivity and Risks of Conflict
00:29:19
Emmanuel Taban
right. Because even the peace agreement alone,
00:29:22
Emmanuel Taban
The peace agreement stated that the presidency cannot make any decision without consultation. If we look at the structure of the peace argument agreement, that there is not supposed to be any ah decision made within the presidency without consultation.
00:29:39
Emmanuel Taban
and And that one, they have to consult. And one of the focal parts that needs to be consulted is the first vice president. And up to now, we don't have any person who occupies that position position who we would say, since the constituency, we should consult the first vice president. So since we have this person, Machar's replacement, we have consulted him.
00:30:01
Emmanuel Taban
We don't have that that position right now is vacant. So who would we say then we have consulted as the first vice president of the country? No one. And therefore, I feel those people from the SPLMI, they have the right to reject it because they were the most important part of the peace agreement.
00:30:20
Emmanuel Taban
And therefore, any decision made without them would remain null and void. And that's what they are saying, right? So for them to have like a very comprehensive decision that at least is inclusive, then much else will be brought in.
00:30:33
Emmanuel Taban
He is under house arrest. I mean, he's going under a trial. He is not found guilty yet. So he can still be consulted if if I was killed, right? Or we could even just let him bring a representative and and just who can speak in his be behalf.
00:30:48
Emmanuel Taban
and And maybe someone who can bring in it I mean appear like my child's face in in in the meeting, but there was no one of that that of that kind. So um these people probably, they were right to say that they're not part of that meeting and they disagree with whatsoever outcome that was met from that meeting.
00:31:09
Emmanuel Taban
So they were right, according to me.
00:31:13
Patrick Abure
Yeah, and and I think that the whole idea of their exclusion from that meeting was unfair, given that the SPLM-IO party is probably the major party after the SPLM in government.
00:31:14
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:31:36
Emmanuel Taban
That's right. Mm-hmm.
00:31:36
Patrick Abure
And so it was only fair that they needed to have been involved in such a significant meeting where major decisions like those who were made.
00:31:48
Patrick Abure
I think it needed to have been done with them, at least consulted or at least in participation. But I also think that excluding a major signatory to the peace agreement like the SPLMIO does threaten the legitimacy of the peace agreement ah as well as its implementation. But I think it it does undermine the legitimacy of the elections in December 2026, should they actually happen
00:32:28
Emmanuel Taban
That's right. You know, I've been following my child and um he has really been advocating for, I mean, to have an elections when we have um a free and, I mean, like a space, a political space that can accommodate all people of all kinds of opinions. I mean, if you don't agree with the president,
00:32:54
Emmanuel Taban
And you can still try being in that environment. That is what he has been asking for. We can't go for an election when we are so much better about the opposition, and then now we feel we can have like a free and credible election. I mean, of course, just like you've said that they're going for an election without the SPLMI or, I mean,
00:33:16
Emmanuel Taban
it's it it's it really doesn't make any sense. So I would i would i would love to see that Machari has been part of that meeting or any other person maybe that he sends to be part of that meeting so that it it it brings in that that structure of the peace agreement so we can see that his views are being represented or he's being represented in that meeting. And also someone can have maybe say what Machar thinks about that. So, but just going for that, mean, i mean going for an election without him, honestly, it threatens the peace argument, just like you've mentioned.
00:33:50
Emmanuel Taban
And that puts the country at at, I mean, another risk of getting back into war. Of course, if we go for an election, a without much help and is still under trial, or maybe they will say, and and we never know when this trial will end. We might even have it pushed until next year. So we could even see that this is, a I mean, the way how they are rushing towards it could be a technical criteria of eliminating him from the ballot. That could be also another another thing that they're looking at because maybe they want to extend the trial to go and they would say he can go for an election because he's still under trial. So that would be like a a
00:34:28
Emmanuel Taban
kind of a a legal argument to actually eliminate him from the ballot. So I think they are very right when they're worried about that because they might see this as a political ah tactic to actually just eliminate him from the ballot. So when you see the Espelemayo guys coming out and disagreeing with what the presidency said, then, of course, they might they might be looking at it from that lenses that these people are trying to be rashy with this process because they want to eliminate Machar from the ballot.
00:34:57
Emmanuel Taban
And that that could be true. so but But yeah, that's that's that's unfortunate that this might be the scenario that they actually the president or the SPL government is thinking about it.
00:35:08
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:35:09
Patrick Abure
Yeah, definitely.
00:35:10
Emmanuel Taban
right.
00:35:12
Patrick Abure
And I also feel that the nature in which this process leading up to the elections has started in a very not inclusive manner.
00:35:28
Patrick Abure
already is starting to feel like it has it thrown out of the window any hopes of a free and fair elections should actually elections happen.
00:35:37
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:35:41
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly. Yes, because if you have to think, I mean, you know, an electoral commission of any country always have their own road map toward an elections. So they might come out and say from January to maybe February, this is where we will have all political parties maybe bring in their, their, what do you call it? there I mean, do like go and seek for signatures for nomination around the country.
00:36:10
Emmanuel Taban
And that might be the time when my child is still under the trial. And they would say, this is the time when each and every candidate would be cleared by the electoral commission. And that if you're not cleared, you're not going to be part of it. They they put deadline, maybe April, and then that is it. And then after that, we'll have the campaign period where you traverse through the country and go and do campaigns.
00:36:32
Emmanuel Taban
If maybe by mid next year this trial is not done and the electoral commission sets the deadlines that this would be the time maybe in July would be the time when all candidates aspiring to be presidents or governors should be cleared by the electoral commission and anyone who's not cleared by that due date is not going to be on the ballot. So we're seeing Machiave being eliminated from there obviously.
00:36:55
Emmanuel Taban
so I mean, this this could be really a very tactical move done by the SPLM government just to get rid of him from the ballot. Yeah. And we might even see this trial being extended, I mean, for the very longest.
00:37:09
Emmanuel Taban
We might see it even extending until mid next year. And since the Machari's under-trial, they will have the argument that it's not qualified to be ah and and and i mean on the ballot. So, yeah, that could be another possibility.
00:37:26
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
00:37:26
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. i actually thought so too.
00:37:28
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:37:30
Patrick Abure
I thought that this was a very tactical move by the presidency that actually will work in favor of President Salva Keir.
00:37:30
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:37:45
Patrick Abure
She did continue in that nature. Very tactical.
00:37:49
Emmanuel Taban
Right. That's.
00:37:49
Patrick Abure
Because basically by bringing the timeline down,
00:37:49
Emmanuel Taban
Mm.
00:37:53
Patrick Abure
and fixing it there while there's trial going on and the future of Dr. Yachmachal is not yet clear, you can easily basically organize a shaky election and all of a sudden, you know, you have yourself declared as the winner and as the president.
00:38:13
Emmanuel Taban
he
00:38:14
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:38:14
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's that's that could be true. But let's let let keep watching. But yes, if we have if we have this trial continued, and maybe we we're likely even to have the the entire code, maybe
00:38:18
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
00:38:27
Emmanuel Taban
um they might have a break. They would say, okay, since it's a festive season, we're going to take like maybe three weeks without the sitting, we're not coming back for the, um because of the Christmas or the festive period, we will resume next year.
00:38:42
Emmanuel Taban
So, and then from next year, they will have it like, if we are going to have it maybe in in a weekly or biweekly phases, obviously we're going to get into July or something of that kind.
00:38:54
Emmanuel Taban
And if the electoral commission sets the deadlines, So they're likely to eliminate Machar from that. They are likely. And that's why Machar is worried. That's why the people lied to him are very worried about him.
00:39:05
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:39:05
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. So but well as we hope that it does that is not what they meant because it it will take the country in a different way.
00:39:13
Emmanuel Taban
i mean, it won't be embraced by everyone. Many people would be angry about that. Yeah.
00:39:19
Patrick Abure
Yeah, hopefully.
00:39:21
Emmanuel Taban
Because that that that would mean that if if we have an election conducted without Machar, because Machar is only being perceived right now as someone who is a legally, in I mean, legally in the government because of that the peace algorithm agreement.
00:39:43
Emmanuel Taban
The peace agreement recognizes him as the first vice president, and he is in the government on that basis. So if we have, mean, next year, in 2026, and twenty twenty six An election done and we have a new government established, let's say, SPLM in government, SPLM mainstream wins it and then they form a government.
00:40:03
Emmanuel Taban
And then we have the transitional government of national unity abolished, which has my child as the Vice President, and if since we have a new government, That government established by the peace agreement is no longer going to be existing. It's not going to be recognized.
00:40:18
Emmanuel Taban
So where is Machado going to be placed in the political atmosphere the country? He's not going to be a first vice president. He's not going to be anywhere. he's going i mean, it's it's going to put him in the political exile. I mean, he might be out outside the politics of the country.
00:40:35
Emmanuel Taban
So when we look at it at that lens, says then we're seeing a very dangerous move that being done by by by by by the presidency or by the Espelier Main Street. Yeah.
00:40:46
Patrick Abure
Yeah, they are playing a long game.
00:40:50
Emmanuel Taban
A long one. Right.
00:40:51
Patrick Abure
Yeah, to keep this guy out of the game for good.
00:40:55
Emmanuel Taban
For good. Yeah. and I mean, like, you know, I think i'm um um I'm just now collecting some kind of ah some kind of thoughts that I've never thought of.
00:41:07
Emmanuel Taban
Because, because i mean if I mean, these whole things, like if you bring them together, it it it creates another different perception. Because as I say, that if we have Machar eliminated from ah from the politics of the country through this way that they're they're trying to do, and then we have um a government established without permanent constitution um or ah just like maybe what Dr.
00:41:39
Emmanuel Taban
Luca Byung suggested, one of these scholars who said that maybe the country should go for a pass over election. If we have that, maybe that the legislature, members of parliament are only appointed, and then these members of parliament can be used maybe to extend, since we don't have a permanent constitution, the members of parliament elected maybe that then can be used to actually extend the time limit or eliminate it so we can have
00:41:46
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:42:03
Emmanuel Taban
ah the president of the country without any terms and then he has the power since with the powers are not limited by the constitution he has the right to bring whosoever he wants to be his replacement to bring on the vice president position i mean that's that's like we're going we're going to have who very weird kind of ah government in in the country existing that is going to be based on maybe ethnicity or dynasty where we feel people who we are close to should be the one taking over power.
00:42:36
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, the whole thing just doesn't make sense. And it's going to create some kind of anarchy in the country. We're not really going to have a very peaceful country. when you When you collect all these elements and just bring them together instead of analyzing, it it creates a very scary image.
00:42:52
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
00:42:52
Emmanuel Taban
It really does. Yeah.
00:42:54
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:42:55
Emmanuel Taban
Very scary.
00:42:55
Patrick Abure
It is very scary.
00:42:57
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:42:57
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:42:59
Emmanuel Taban
It does.
00:42:59
Patrick Abure
My hope that we do not get to that point where we return back to a war.
00:43:03
Emmanuel Taban
What? Mm-hmm.
00:43:10
Patrick Abure
That would be a disaster. So the SPLMIO argues that you cannot amend the peace deal.
00:43:22
Patrick Abure
without their participation, since they are a major signatory. From your view, and because you have looked at the peace agreement very closely, is it legally and politically acceptable to change the peace agreement without the SPLM I.O.
00:43:45
Patrick Abure
and Dr. Ryak Macha in participation?
00:43:48
Emmanuel Taban
it is not It is not acceptable. I mean, it's not even about amending the the the peace agreement, but a mere appointment, especially in the presidency, it's not supposed to be done without the consent of one of the of the of the the component component of the presidency, whether being the vice president or any of the vice president or the first vice president. But we have seen that there are not once, not twice, but so many times that the president does an appointment without even my child knowing about it. And that is being embraced and they go, they move on. He walks away with it. No one's arguing about it. So it's not just about amending the Constitution. Any single slight decision that the president or any single of them, whether it be the president or one of the vice presidents or my child himself wants it to be done. He's supposed to do it in consultation with the other members of the presidency, the president, and they should have like consensus, come up with a unilateral decision and say, this is our stand. We all agree. And this would be, leave but live alone just, I mean, that that bigger part of amending the peace agreement. Mayor's decision about appointment of a minister should have been done in consultation with all the presidency and also signatories to the peace agreement.
00:45:02
Emmanuel Taban
But that has not been done. Yes, the the the meeting that happened recently was done and the four vice presidents were in attendance. The president himself was in attendance.
00:45:15
Emmanuel Taban
The signatories to the peace agreement were also in attendance. and then But there was one person missing, which was very prominent, and that was my child. So that alone is against the peace agreement.
00:45:27
Emmanuel Taban
That alone needs against is against the peace agreement. The exclusion of my child in that meeting, I mean, it's it's a violation of the peace argument agreement, and therefore, any decision or any outcome that they came out from that meeting is not going to be binding. I mean, it's not going to be in line with the peace agreement, which had actually suggested that they make consultation.
00:45:51
Emmanuel Taban
And unfortunately, unfortunatelyly my child was not consulted and he was not part of that. Yeah, so it was illegal to have that agreement to do the extension of the the I mean, to have an election next year without much help. It was against the peace agreement.
00:46:10
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:46:11
Patrick Abure
Yeah, that is that is quite interesting that the president knew and understood that all senators must agree to amendments such as are those a agreed in the recent meeting of the presidency.
00:46:16
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:46:33
Patrick Abure
However, with all that information, they went ahead to sit for such a meeting and agree on such outcomes without the that that that that that the presence of Yakmachal.
00:46:50
Patrick Abure
And I think this really goes back to what we were discussing earlier, that this really appears like a very deliberate, long game decision.
00:47:04
Patrick Abure
It's more like playing chess.
00:47:07
Emmanuel Taban
right
00:47:07
Patrick Abure
And this is like one of those moves that is just aimed at taking this guy out.
00:47:13
Emmanuel Taban
it's exactly yeah yeah it it appears so it really does and uh yeah my child really you can't make any decisions right now about the country and and i'm not saying that he is such a powerful guy
00:47:14
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:47:26
Emmanuel Taban
But just to be in line with what the peace agreement says, we should bring him on, right? Bring him on board and ask his consent because he commands the major opposition of the country. So majority of the guys are anti-K, anti-Mainstream government are allied to my child. And therefore, you can't make any, i mean, move without without him being part of it.
00:47:50
Emmanuel Taban
So that's that doesn't really make any sense to me. Yeah.
00:47:53
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:47:54
Emmanuel Taban
right.
00:47:55
Patrick Abure
And also like making really such a move, like major decisions could trigger major disputes and even war.
00:48:07
Emmanuel Taban
That's correct.
00:48:09
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:48:11
Emmanuel Taban
that's That's really, that's correct. And yeah, we we have seen like fighting and marching duty very slight decisions, not these major ones. So this is this is one of the decisions that might actually take the country back. So if they intend to exclude Machari, that is their intention, then I think they risking taking back the country into war.
00:48:33
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:48:33
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:48:35
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:48:35
Patrick Abure
Speaking...
00:48:35
Emmanuel Taban
Because my my My child might not be, he might be under house arrest, but there are people out there that are still alive to him and they can cause any havoc in the country. They can do that even without my child being part of it.
00:48:48
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:48:49
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:48:50
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:48:51
Patrick Abure
That is so true. And actually speaking of that, Riyad Machar... is on trial over the Nasir incident that happened, I think early this year.
00:49:07
Patrick Abure
And the prosecutors are using the idea of command responsibility to link Dr. Yakmachal to the killings that happened in the Nasir incident, even without direct orders from Dr. Yakmachal himself.
00:49:32
Patrick Abure
What exactly does that mean?
00:49:35
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, like You know, when I look at the charges made against my child, especially the one on murder, and the people who argue that he actually is the one that he murdered, the general, Maturo.
00:49:53
Emmanuel Taban
And when I look at that, and I was wondering, what does what what is the legal definition of murder, perhaps?
00:50:05
Emmanuel Taban
does it I mean, like, is it, do you have to get directed to, like, contact maybe with someone? Is that what the court's defined as a murder or ah through a command or some kind of authority? That's what they call it. Because um the time when the the the incident in Nasser happened, I think my child wasn't there. He was in Juba.
00:50:30
Emmanuel Taban
And they... brought in charges about murder. I mean, they could they could say about the treason, but the one with murder, I don't really think that is legally um and i mean a charge that should be made against him because he wasn't there. In fact,
00:50:45
Emmanuel Taban
When I heard from ah some of the witnesses, they said, in fact, Machar was trying to rescue the general who got killed there. But then the people, who those white army generals as well, they disrespected Machar's order of actually bringing back that general.
00:51:02
Emmanuel Taban
They killed him. And over and over again, Machar has always refused that. He denied that. the White Army is not actually ah affiliation an affiliation of the SPLMIO.
00:51:16
Emmanuel Taban
And also the leadership of the White Army have said that, that they are not affiliated to the SPLMIO. So when you're talking about murder, machari committing murder, I'm yet to hear from maybe verdict passed by the court, if at all they're going to to find him guilty of murder, and we see what argument are they going to to give or on what basis do they consider him a murderer or someone who has participated in the killing of the general. I'm yet to to see that verdict passed by by by by the courts. yeah
00:51:48
Emmanuel Taban
But speaking of murder, I don't think if what was done in a nursery can be really um something that is equal to murder done by child because he wasn't there.
00:52:02
Emmanuel Taban
Right? Unless, I mean, maybe the court has its own definition of what constitutes murder. Yeah.
00:52:10
Patrick Abure
Right. um mean I mean, I have watched a couple of crime movies and TV shows.
00:52:18
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right.
00:52:20
Patrick Abure
And I think at least I have understood from some of those shows that you can be found guilty of murder even without necessarily being directly involved in killing, let's say, a person.
00:52:38
Emmanuel Taban
involved.
00:52:41
Patrick Abure
Could be because, you know, you were the one that hired the person. And maybe you're living in a different country, but the others came from you.
00:52:48
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:52:50
Patrick Abure
And I think in that case, the court can find you liable, or you can be charged and probably or even convicted of murder.
00:52:51
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:52:59
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:53:00
Patrick Abure
Could be first degree, second degree, depending.
00:53:01
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's...
00:53:05
Patrick Abure
But...
00:53:05
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's... Yeah. that's That's why I said I'm yet to wait from the courts because there's also an evidence of my child actually giving command for the late general before he was killed to be actually airlifted to Juba.
00:53:24
Emmanuel Taban
So that was also another evidence. So we're having these two contradicting evidences here of of him actually giving a command for the general to be brought back so he won't be killed.
00:53:35
Emmanuel Taban
and then there was also another another argument that you actually you actually get the orders for the general to be killed so we're seeing two contrasting uh evidences here that the court we will have to wait for the courts to pass a judgment on that yeah all
00:53:49
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. And Emma, what I am struggling to understand in this whole thing is what exactly does command responsibility mean?
00:53:57
Emmanuel Taban
right
00:54:05
Patrick Abure
Because that is what the prosecutors are using to link Dr. Yagmachar to the killings in the Nasir incident, even though There were no direct orders from my child.
00:54:22
Emmanuel Taban
I think maybe the command responsibility might be coming from ah the fact that Machare holds a very, very prominent position.
00:54:33
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:54:33
Emmanuel Taban
And perhaps there are people, in fact, when look at the trial, Machare is not the primary suspect. In fact, according to the to the list, the order of the names, Machare is a number five suspect.
00:54:49
Emmanuel Taban
So when you look at that order, so that means the primary suspects starting from that order maybe are the ones that are closely linked to that. So we do have someone like um ah the the Minister of Petroleum, the former Minister of Petroleum, Po Kang, who is the primary suspect in that case, in that trial. So and this is a guy who's close to Machar.
00:55:10
Emmanuel Taban
So perhaps they might feel that because he is close to Machar and Machar is senior,
00:55:20
Emmanuel Taban
and get from my child and therefore extend it towards the field. So, but ah the commander responsibility of committing that murder, I think can best be defined by by the courts. and And just like I said, we're yet to wait what verdict court is probably going to pass.
00:55:37
Emmanuel Taban
And and until until that time, probably we won't be able to come up with a very clear ah argument of how that should be oh what it is.
00:55:49
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:55:50
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I agree.
00:55:51
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:55:52
Patrick Abure
We definitely look forward to seeing what the cuts.
00:55:52
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:55:55
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Yeah. but But I've seen but but i've seen ah so many leaders of many countries, people who have not even participated directly in killing.
00:55:56
Patrick Abure
Maybe...
00:56:02
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:56:04
Emmanuel Taban
For instance, instance in 2007, there was an election that was held in Kenya. And then in that After that elections, the country had violence that led to killings and people were massacred. And and that has made actually the current president of Kenya and the former president, Ruto and Ugur Kenyatta, were taken to the to the International Court of Justice. they're taken and they were prosecuted there.
00:56:34
Emmanuel Taban
And one of the one of the charges was that the way they were the committed murder. because And they they were not even directly in participating. They didn't participate directly in those killings. But because they feel the people that actually did the direct murder, they received the commands from them because they hold these high high positions.
00:56:51
Emmanuel Taban
One of them is the the deputy president. I mean, before they were actually elected into the presidency, there were very prominent people in the opposition who had very huge followings.
00:57:01
Emmanuel Taban
And therefore, there was this belief that the people who actually participated in the direct mother of the citizen, they received commands from these people. And this this this actually brings in the argument that if you are someone who has authority, so you should be very responsible how you actually command the people around you.
00:57:22
Emmanuel Taban
Because anything that the people around you will do, it will come back to you as someone who is above them. People will definitely that you're the one who
00:57:28
Patrick Abure
Right
00:57:31
Emmanuel Taban
who who actually directed those those those commands. And yeah, that makes it very important that if you hold such prominent positions, so you should always be very careful about the people that act the people around you commit.
00:57:44
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:57:45
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
00:57:46
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:57:47
Patrick Abure
and
00:57:48
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:57:48
Patrick Abure
And i think that even in the case of my child, this is very interesting because, for example, just to... building on what you've said, there are even no any direct orders from Riak Machar.
00:58:00
Emmanuel Taban
Mm
00:58:05
Patrick Abure
And I was trying to understand, like, what does actually command responsibility mean? And here it says that ah command responsibility is a legal doctrine that holds military and civilian leaders accountable for the actions of their subordinates.
00:58:25
Patrick Abure
especially in cases of war crimes and violations of international law.
00:58:25
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:58:32
Patrick Abure
So technically, there needed to be an order from you for you to be held accountable.
00:58:40
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:58:41
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:58:41
Emmanuel Taban
But that's also makes it like very hard because I mean, the people, people around me might have their own their own motives, right? So it really doesn't make any sense if anyone who subscribes to my politics, to my ideologies, and if they decide to go and do their own thing, out day I should be the one like charged with the crime they've committed.
00:58:50
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:59:05
Emmanuel Taban
I feel this is legally unfair. I mean, for this to be done because Just like the case of Machai, there wasn't really any direct command from him. He didn't didn't he didn't do that.
00:59:19
Emmanuel Taban
But because people believe he holds a prominent position, commander-in-chief of the Espelim, Iwo, armies, and and and and those things, and they believe that um the people who actually committed the crime because they are his subordinates perhaps should be also charged with that, which is, I feel like it's legally unfair.
00:59:40
Emmanuel Taban
it's It's really, really unfair. But
00:59:42
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:59:43
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, maybe if that's what the court decides and that's what the the kind of definition they've come up with, then yes, let's wait and see what is going to come out from that.
00:59:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:59:53
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:59:54
Patrick Abure
And honestly, for me, like, I genuinely look forward to seeing what is going to be the verdict of this case and how exactly prosecutors actually going to realistically link Machar to the killings in the nursery incident.
01:00:07
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:00:16
Patrick Abure
But I think, honestly, that is something that maybe we'll learn more in the coming days and weeks and perhaps months.
01:00:21
Emmanuel Taban
Right, it is. Exactly.
Preparing for 2026 Elections: Challenges and Hopes
01:00:25
Patrick Abure
But I think
01:00:25
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:00:27
Patrick Abure
One thing that is very clear is that actions such as these, for example, the the ongoing trial of Dr. Ryak Machar and the recent meeting of the presidency do affect whether the opposition leaders in South Sudan feel safe and comfortable to compete in an election in 2026 fairly fairly
01:01:00
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Yeah, I think that's and even those guys who agree to the belief that the country should go for an election, I think yeah they should really very be very worried about it unless they are not seeking for any positions, because how do you really go for elections in such a country?
01:01:24
Emmanuel Taban
where you don't know have any constitution that actually guides the process of the election. How are you going to get into an election?
01:01:35
Emmanuel Taban
And I'm still wondering, because some of the people who actually were part of that meeting, these are people who I and respect them so much, you know, but unfortunately they had to fall into that political deception that, i mean, it's okay to get for an election.
01:01:53
Emmanuel Taban
next year. So, but for the opposition, as the country agrees and they finally decide that they're going to be on election, I think they shouldn't be really excited about it.
01:02:04
Emmanuel Taban
There's nothing to be excited about being in the opposition unless they want to disown their political outfits and then go and join Espelim. And if they're interested in vying for other positions, they go under Espelim mainstream.
01:02:17
Emmanuel Taban
But apart from that, I don't see any, any, any, any I mean, possibility of someone going into this election as an opposition a candidate in whatsoever position, in the presidency or in the governatory positions, or if you're intending to be a member of parliament, it's going to be hard.
01:02:36
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:02:37
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:02:38
Patrick Abure
I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:41
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:02:42
Patrick Abure
And honestly, you know, like when I came across the reports of basically the, the slated election for December, 2026, was like, are we realistically ready for an election in 2026?
01:02:58
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:02:58
Emmanuel Taban
look
01:03:00
Emmanuel Taban
do look at look at them Look at this. like um
01:03:02
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:03:03
Emmanuel Taban
In Uganda, Uganda is heading towards an election 15th of January. But you could see right from last year, i mean early this year, you can easily see that there is an election going to happen next year in in January.
01:03:13
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:03:18
Emmanuel Taban
The way how the country has been preparing, you see that the all the the opposition parties are actually gearing up towards 2020 seeing you can see that the country is on campaign mode and you can easily see that you can see people going on the national tv talking about it lots of ads on tvs about these uh these are these slated election up in the next year and all this kind of stuff kenya is sitting towards an election in 2027 but the country when you look at their political
01:03:47
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:03:51
Emmanuel Taban
um the the the the temperature, political temperature in the country, you feel that the country is heading towards an election maybe tomorrow. And in South Sudan, the country is heading towards the elections in 2026 December.
01:04:03
Emmanuel Taban
But there's no any single sign that there is an election going to be.
01:04:03
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:04:07
Emmanuel Taban
No preparation. not The electoral commission is slipping. I opposition parties are not even coming out. No candidate is showing up. Nothing happening in the country.
01:04:18
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:04:18
Emmanuel Taban
That tells you a lot about, i don't know what kind of election we're heading, but let's see what's going to happen. Yeah.
01:04:25
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:04:26
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:04:26
Patrick Abure
Genuinely, and this is my opinion, but I really do think that South Sudan is not ready for elections in December 2026.
01:04:40
Patrick Abure
Because when you look at the peace agreement, the 2018 peace agreement, peace agreement We have so many tasks that are not completed.
01:04:53
Patrick Abure
So many of them. For example, ah we do not have the unified security forces up to now. That is still pending.
01:05:06
Patrick Abure
We do not have a permanent constitution up to now. We have not done a census. And refugees have not returned back to South Sudan yet.
01:05:24
Patrick Abure
and And just like you have said, we are not seeing any full-scale election preparations going on in the country, whether it be from the government or otherwise, it's not there.
01:05:38
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
01:05:40
Patrick Abure
And yet, in the recent meeting, the presidency sat and agreed that no, we need to have an election in December 2026. I feel that that is impractical.
01:05:57
Emmanuel Taban
It is. It is. but because Look, the creation of the unified ah forces, that was um those were supposed to be done in the pre-transition of Hilo, in the eight months after the signing the peace agreement, that has never been achieved after now.
01:06:15
Emmanuel Taban
And just like I said before, the last time the country had census, I think it was in 2008, when the country was heading toward the 2010 elections. And right from there, There has been series of conflicts, civil wars that erupted in the country. So many people fled the country, Georgia living as refugees.
01:06:33
Emmanuel Taban
And from that year up to now, there has been a consistent increase. People have been producing, others dying. So there is perhaps maybe increase or decrease in the population due to the civil war. And therefore, we don't have any clear demographics of the country.
01:06:46
Emmanuel Taban
We don't have any clear number of the population of the country right now. So, I mean, like on... to be very serious, how are going to head towards an election in this manner? We don't know the number of people that are living in this country.
01:07:00
Emmanuel Taban
We don't know how many people are going to be voting in this election. How are we going to? Perhaps we're going to have ghost names being brought into this election, and people are just going to... It's weird.
01:07:14
Emmanuel Taban
If you look at the entire thing, it doesn't really make any sense. It's so weird. So it's practical, just like you've said.
01:07:19
Patrick Abure
It is.
01:07:21
Emmanuel Taban
We shouldn't really focus on having an election, according to my own opinion, next year. It's unreal.
01:07:27
Patrick Abure
Yeah. and And even if we are to have ah the elections, I doubt da i that the elections would be free and fair.
01:07:43
Emmanuel Taban
It won't be. No.
01:07:44
Patrick Abure
Yeah, they probably wouldn't.
01:07:49
Patrick Abure
Yeah, because we still have
01:07:50
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:07:52
Patrick Abure
we we have insecurity in a lot of the parts of the country up to now. And if you are having a general election in 2026, like the presidency has suggested, how are candidates going to traverse the country to campaign and reach the electorate?
01:08:01
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:08:13
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, across the country.
01:08:18
Emmanuel Taban
Look, and the most scary thing, look, we still do have like holdout groups, right? These are people who don't want to be part of the peace agreement.
01:08:25
Patrick Abure
Yes.
01:08:29
Emmanuel Taban
Right now we have the NAS, the National Service in front.
01:08:31
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:08:32
Emmanuel Taban
We have the group to Paul Malone, one. We do have other major guys that are still out there, likes of Pagana Mung, the former SG of the Spillen Party.
01:08:45
Emmanuel Taban
They are still out there.
01:08:46
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:08:52
Emmanuel Taban
who is called Nyal Deng Nyal, who recently defected from the SPLM party and is now working with the UPA, the new, the associate of all the other holdout groups.
01:09:03
Emmanuel Taban
So they are still out there. And we are trying to have an election. And then if you if you want to be the president and you're going to be moving across the country, trying to sell your manifesto, and most of these people, in most cases, they attack these roads, right?
01:09:19
Emmanuel Taban
How are you going to be traversing towards the country?
01:09:19
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:09:21
Emmanuel Taban
They will kill you. Honestly, like what what would you kill, right?
01:09:23
Patrick Abure
Of course.
01:09:25
Emmanuel Taban
So why not first bring these holdout groups, make them part of, to be part of the process so they feel safe, so that we can have an inclusive kind of a
01:09:25
Patrick Abure
ah Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:36
Emmanuel Taban
process where everyone feels is part of so they won't be out there terrorizing uh people when you doing the the elections i mean it's more of putting the country in more risk i mean candidates are going to be at risk even citizens are going to be at risk we will see instances where electric i mean polling stations bring this tab even attacked by these other groups.
01:10:03
Emmanuel Taban
It's going to happen. So it's really unfortunate that people don't look at it that way.
01:10:04
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
01:10:10
Emmanuel Taban
They just want the way of consolidating themselves in power and that's it.
01:10:16
Patrick Abure
yeah I agree with you. And honestly, we we do have very significant gaps in security, our institutions, our census, and even funding.
01:10:31
Patrick Abure
That is something that is not talked about.
01:10:34
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly. Mm-hmm.
01:10:34
Patrick Abure
But we have lots of gaps in these areas. And I think the emphasis on just having the election in 2026 does not necessarily mean it's going to be and a credible election or a fair one or a free one.
01:10:54
Patrick Abure
But neither does it also mean that necessarily it's going to end the war, which is why it's always important to engage everyone. Yeah.
01:11:04
Emmanuel Taban
That's right. I think that issue of the funding is one of the the most ah important one because I'm still wondering how this government is going to have an election.
01:11:10
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:11:14
Emmanuel Taban
Like how are they going to secure the fund? I mean, the funding for this election because
01:11:21
Emmanuel Taban
I don't think if there was the budget that was passed, if there was some kind of a location given towards an election, I don't think so. And we are still having a section of civil servants even running for almost nine months or so without getting paid. So I'm wondering where this government is going to get this money in months, in a period of months to, I mean, do the whole process.
01:11:47
Emmanuel Taban
The government needs to secure ballot papers. They need to employ some officers in all polling stations. and then Ibadol.
01:11:58
Emmanuel Taban
But I don't think they have a system right now. They don't have any system, like SAVA, some kind of thing that they don't have that at the moment. So we probably have like a manual kind of election where we have it today.
01:12:10
Emmanuel Taban
It will take us maybe one month or two weeks to come up with the results.
01:12:11
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:12:14
Emmanuel Taban
So it's it's really going to be hard. It's it's it's hard.
01:12:17
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:12:18
Emmanuel Taban
and And it's just hard coordinating the whole thing. Look at that that that part of coordinating the elections, I mean, being all
01:12:34
Emmanuel Taban
It's really...
01:12:35
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:12:35
Emmanuel Taban
don't think it's going to happen something very... In a good way, because that that that issue of the funding, it's it's a very important one. But I don't see any...
01:12:43
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:12:45
Emmanuel Taban
I don't see this government having the capacity to run a very credible election. I don't really...
01:12:50
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:12:51
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. I mean... Things happen, perhaps this is our first time. Some of us will buy the belief that this is our first time, we should be looking for something that is perfect, just start with that.
01:13:03
Emmanuel Taban
But yeah, still, at least we should have the basics. To have the, we are starting, we should at least have the basics. But with our government, we don't even see that those basics are still not there.
01:13:15
Emmanuel Taban
We're not seeing them, right?
01:13:17
Patrick Abure
Yeah, it is.
01:13:17
Emmanuel Taban
So it's hard. It's a very, very good question.
01:13:20
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And I feel like this is really a conversation that needs to be had again and again. um because I genuinely do think that South Sudan does need to go into an election.
01:13:39
Patrick Abure
That is for sure. But I also understand that, um,
01:13:46
Patrick Abure
A bad election can be worse than an election that is delayed but well prepared.
01:13:55
Emmanuel Taban
That's true.
01:13:56
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:13:57
Emmanuel Taban
That is right.
01:13:59
Patrick Abure
Especially if we if we go into an election in 2026, without some of the major parties taking part in it, like for example, the SPLMIO, I think that would be risky and would do maybe even like throw the country back into violence and deepen just mistrust altogether.
01:14:22
Emmanuel Taban
right.
01:14:25
Emmanuel Taban
That's right. that That's why I say that you know, going towards an election in 2026 would be a suicide for the entire country. I mean, it's it's it's really, it's really, it's it's really, because without all these prominent elements that are required, you know, would be really just deceiving ourselves we're going to have a credible election.
01:14:48
Emmanuel Taban
We are not going to have that at all. We are not going to have it all. And just as you've said, it's good to have a delayed election than having a rusty one, one that is done in this way. I don't know what's the obsession of this government having an election next year.
01:15:03
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, you you are still in control.
01:15:03
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:15:07
Emmanuel Taban
So, and I feel like there's one important motive that they are trying to make because you still have most powers of doing doing things in your own way as the president is doing it today, but you still want to get an election. What are you trying to do? What are you trying to achieve very fast?
01:15:26
Emmanuel Taban
that you want elections to get done so you can have that.
01:15:29
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:15:30
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:15:30
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:15:30
Emmanuel Taban
So, yeah, I think there's something that maybe they are planning for. Yeah.
01:15:36
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
01:15:36
Emmanuel Taban
So, yeah, just like we it's either the elimination of someone something else. Yeah. Yeah.
01:15:43
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And I was reading also like um some Facebook posts, and I think there are a lot of people who seem to propagate the idea that South Sudanese want elections.
01:15:44
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:15:51
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
01:16:02
Patrick Abure
But I think civil society too, seems to suggest that South Sudanese want an election and that that sentiment is very strong.
01:16:15
Patrick Abure
but But I also think that South Sudanese want security. and They want fairness, not just another peace deal, because we've had a lot of peace deals that have not materially materialized into some of the positive changes that we'd like to really see you know in the country and in our own lives as South Sudanese.
01:16:35
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:16:42
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, I think there was a survey carried out and on on the and if South Sudanese really wants election, and the majority of them really responded that positively, they really want an election.
01:16:56
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:16:57
Emmanuel Taban
But what is the reason of these South Sudanese wanting an election? They are tired of the current status quo. They are tired of a of insecurity in the country. They are tired of having a government that exists in place, but seems not to, I mean, not doing, performing its duty and it's not held accountable. They are tired of going, I mean, ah going to another country, being forced, i mean, just to go and live in the refugee camp.
01:17:22
Emmanuel Taban
That is the reason why they won an election, because they have the believe that if they have an election, they would have that opportunity to elect the people that actually they won.
01:17:32
Emmanuel Taban
And that these people, since they are the one who elected them, They will also have the power to hold them responsible in case they engage in doing other things that are not ah and out of their will. That is the reason why these South Sudanese desperately need elections. But what is the importance of going towards an election that is going to cause more harm than the one that you're going today?
01:17:55
Emmanuel Taban
but So it's there's no need for that. but I mean, I understand the desperation by so many South Sudanese wanting an election. because they want an end to everything that is happening in the country today.
01:18:07
Emmanuel Taban
But they should also understand that going for an election without a well-prepared election will be more hurting and will create more harm than having even no elections at all, right?
01:18:22
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:18:23
Emmanuel Taban
So they should understand that. So I understand the belief by so many young people. Perhaps they have that obsession of going to a ballroom, I mean, polling station and maybe casting their votes for the first time.
01:18:36
Emmanuel Taban
They also want to experience that. They want to have that experience of going, working up early in the morning, going to the polling station and i mean, doing your, you I mean, casting your vote.
01:18:49
Emmanuel Taban
They want that as well. But We can have that when we have an election that is not done in the most credible way. So whereas
01:19:03
Emmanuel Taban
most of us want that to happen, we should also understand it from the view of having it not in a credible manner and its impact. What is it going to cost to us right vis-a-vis what is happening right now?
01:19:14
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:19:15
Emmanuel Taban
I think that is one thing that is lacking in the their in their obsession, in their need for elections. They don't have that perhaps deeper analysis of how this is going to impact them.
01:19:27
Patrick Abure
Yeah. But I also think that many South Sudanese strongly want an election ah in December 2026 because they see the election as having, ideally, the potential to deliver a peace, to deliver a security, deliver stability, and maybe eventually improve our economy.
01:20:01
Patrick Abure
But I think if the process leading up to the election has started in such a very non-inclusive manner, like we've already seen with the recent meeting of the presidency and its outcome,
01:20:20
Patrick Abure
ah I doubt that the election would changed the capacity to deliver the outcomes that the South Sudanese people are hoping it would be able to deliver for them.
01:20:36
Patrick Abure
Because I think like genuinely, you know, like you said, we are tired.
01:20:37
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right.
01:20:41
Patrick Abure
It's been a very long time of running to different countries, of losing our loved ones and property. We're just tired of that. But I also feel like, do the leaders really want to deliver the peace and security and the stability and economic viability that we want to see in the country that can trickle down to improve our own lives?
01:21:10
Patrick Abure
you know Because, come on, Emma, we do not leave off handouts from the government. We work, but you can only do as much if the place is so insecure, you see.
01:21:26
Patrick Abure
But I also feel like to some extent, the government maybe, and this particular government, could be just preying on the strong interest of the people
01:21:26
Emmanuel Taban
right
01:21:40
Patrick Abure
South Sudanese people to want an election, preying on that desire and use us, South Sudanese, pawns to basically keep themselves in power and make themselves seem legitimate to us while our actual suffering continues and never really ends.
01:22:00
Emmanuel Taban
That could be true. And, um you know, um just like you said, i think, ah as as you said, that the majority of of the people really want the peace because they hope that, I mean, they need the election because they hope that this will actually put an end.
01:22:18
Emmanuel Taban
um to what's the suffering that most of us are facing. We are tired of everything that is happening right now, going into refugee camp and losing our loved ones and all this stuff. So, ah but it's it's unfortunate that, I mean, our our our our need for an election is mainly centered on having, so we could actually have ah a reform we state, a country that can actually have our basic needs made and and and give us that kind of stability and and peace and and freedoms and liberty all that that is the hope of many young people in the country. But that the the reality is that this is not the same the same view of the political elites. This is not what they want. Just like you've said, perhaps they're going to use these as and and and then make it like look legitimate that these are the South Sudanese who want it.
01:23:14
Emmanuel Taban
But in real sense, they have a very different motive of wanting an election to very first. Perhaps, just like we discussed in the initial state of this recording, that perhaps ah the way why they are making this process to be in a rushing way, perhaps they want to like try to consolidate themselves in power. You know, when we go toward an election without a permanent constitution, then we are likely to have a government form. that is not being led by any constitution and therefore the government that is going to be created is going to have the power to create that constitution in their favour and that is going to make them consolidate themselves in power, stay long in power and just have all the powers given to one person who could be their president. So that is or that might be the desperation of the political elite.
01:24:02
Emmanuel Taban
to have an election next year. But that is not our intention as the common people. our intention is such that we can have a country that can actually get us away from the current status quo, instability, insecurity. I mean, people suffering, almost most of the states and counties are in need of severe food assistance and there are floodings coming at some point. i mean, lots of things. This is the reason why majority of us want that election to be done so it could deliver all this things that we want.
01:24:33
Emmanuel Taban
But the most unfortunate part is that this is not what the political elites want. They don't need that at all. They want situation where they can prolong themselves, stay in power, manipulate our brains, manipulate the constitution that can give them more time and more powers to control everything.
01:24:53
Emmanuel Taban
That is the unfortunate part of it. It is unfortunate that that is the truth that is in the mind of these elites.
01:24:57
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:25:01
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:25:01
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. Yeah.
01:25:02
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right. Right.
01:25:03
Patrick Abure
And honestly, you know, like for for someone maybe listening to us for the first time, they would think that we are just a pessimistic about the people in the government. But I really do think that You know, this is this is not just about us being pessimistic or dismissive of the efforts that the people in the government are making, but I think it's just what they have shown us over the years in terms of where actually the decisions they make lie and the the agendas, those decisions seem to be driving
01:25:37
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:25:48
Patrick Abure
You see? Because if really they had that in mind, I think to we wouldn't be in the current state that we are in as a country.
01:26:01
Patrick Abure
A lot would have changed. Yeah.
01:26:03
Emmanuel Taban
Right. and And maybe one one other thing, Patrick, you know, we are not just ah being critical of maybe specific people in in in in the government.
01:26:06
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:26:13
Emmanuel Taban
I'm not being critical of maybe Kir and his government. But when I talk about the political, I mean everyone, those who are, whether being in opposition, whether being machar, who, you know, most of these people who are holding these prominent positions right now, they really don't hold any interest of the common people.
01:26:32
Emmanuel Taban
They don't have it. That's why even when the people don't want to go back to war at some point, these people will go and still create the kind of instability that we're seeing.
01:26:33
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:26:42
Emmanuel Taban
And they have done it not once, not twice, but so many times. that They have worked against the interests of the common people. So um it's always good, you know if if a government wants to try, it's good to listen and to and into your critics or people who criticize your opinions. I'm not saying or I'm not just trying to say that there's nothing good that the government is doing about it. There are perhaps other things that the government is doing very well.
01:27:10
Emmanuel Taban
But also we believe that there are things that they need to do much better on. And these are some of the things that we feel they should, right?
01:27:15
Patrick Abure
Yeah, absolutely.
01:27:17
Emmanuel Taban
Because we gained independence like almost 14 years ago. And right from that time, what change have we really experienced that has impacted so much in our lives, apart from over and over again, running up and down, going to foreign countries and staying the refugee camps?
01:27:23
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:27:34
Emmanuel Taban
What change have we done? What have we created to our people, apart from most of them, the civil servants, even those who really fought for our freedom, going several months without getting paid.
01:27:45
Emmanuel Taban
They couldn't send their kids to schools. They couldn't even send their their kids to the cheapest ah hospitals in in in the country. but change of women when we have young people who should have been actually the heirs of the country most of them are just staying their own life they have nothing there's no hope most of them are losing hope because the government seems not to be prioritizing them no jobs someone goes to school and comes and start doing something that is completely different from what they study in school that is
01:28:18
Emmanuel Taban
the people need change on, right?
01:28:20
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:28:21
Emmanuel Taban
So when we, you know, sometimes when you are in this political position, you become so, I would say, blind that you don't see really what the people want.
01:28:31
Emmanuel Taban
But it is good to always hear people who, who are critical of of you because, you know, as as a government, as a politician, you are not, you don't actually hold a monopoly of of knowledge and power and knowing. You don't know exactly what's happening in the ground, you know, and it becomes worse when you are a government and you don't want critics.
01:28:52
Emmanuel Taban
It becomes worse because the essence of having critics when we do have a civil civil society, when we do have opposition leaders, when we do have people who are critical of your government, the essence here is that these people get to raise the issues that are actually happening downgrad in places that you are not able to access.
01:29:10
Emmanuel Taban
And when these people come up with these issues, it informs you as the government of the day. and you get to know about these issues that these people are facing and this informs the basis of your decision, the basis of your policies that you should. You realize that this is a very prominent problem that the people are facing Therefore, what you should do, you should look around working solutions that can actually tackle this problem.
01:29:32
Emmanuel Taban
And the policies you meant, if you want to create bills in the parliament, should be ones that are actually centered on solving that problem. So if you're dismissing critics, if you're dismissing opponents, then you are likely to be a government that has no idea what the people are facing down there.
Debate on Democratic Processes and Reforms
01:29:47
Emmanuel Taban
So that is the reality about having oppositions in the country Right. So when we're talking about them, we are not really criticizing them for the sake or we're not hating people, but we just want the good for the country. We know majority of them have the love for their country. They want the better things. They want elections, perhaps because they want to get out of this mess that the country is in.
01:30:08
Emmanuel Taban
But also, other people are trying to show you the impact of having an election done when you are not when it's not seems to be, I mean, premature. Right. So As leader, you should look at all these arguments, comprehend them, analyze, and come up with your final decision.
01:30:24
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:30:25
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
01:30:27
Patrick Abure
And I think really, you know, like we are basically, you know, saying all the good ideas that they have, all the good ideas that for a very long time they have promoted to us, all the ideas that over the years, because of how well they sold out those ideas to us, we have bought them.
01:30:27
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
01:30:36
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:30:42
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:30:50
Patrick Abure
We're saying it's now time to stop talking about them and actually implement them such that we can see the material changes in our own lives and in the country.
01:30:50
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:30:55
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:30:58
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:31:05
Patrick Abure
And I think there's so many other people who have a lot of suggestions, good ones, that have, I think, potential to to improve how things are in the country.
01:31:12
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:31:18
Patrick Abure
And I think one of those people is Dr. Luca Biong. who you mentioned earlier from the start of this conversation, he has some really interesting suggestions.
01:31:25
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:31:36
Patrick Abure
Dr. Luca Byong is suggesting a couple of options leading up to the 2026 elections. And one of his suggestions is to have partial elections.
01:31:50
Patrick Abure
And the other one is to have a technocratic government. And a third one that is very interesting for me is limiting which seats can be contested for.
01:32:06
Patrick Abure
Do people only contest for the, let's say, president and vice president? Do they contest only for president, Liva, the vice president? How about maybe leave out you know the the parliamentarians so it's not contested, but they are appointed. So I wanted to hear more from you.
01:32:26
Patrick Abure
What do you think um about these suggestions by Dr.
01:32:28
Emmanuel Taban
i think I think I really have a very, very profound respect for Dr.
01:32:29
Patrick Abure
Luca Biong?
01:32:37
Emmanuel Taban
Luca Byung. I think he's one of the few scholars that we as South Sudanese, we are proud of. i mean, um he is one prominent person and and a scholar from Harvard University, perba one of the the best universities in world.
01:32:56
Emmanuel Taban
And over and over again, i mean, he served in the current government before as a the press um mean minister in the office of the president. He was a member of the Espelham party. And therefore, I really do have a very, very high respect for him.
01:33:12
Emmanuel Taban
And ah when i read about his literary craft and that he came up with that article that he wrote about ah how we should go into 2026, Sound interesting.
01:33:24
Emmanuel Taban
end oh But out of all the suggestions that he gave, the most interesting one, just like you've said, is the one where we can go for a partial election, where we can only have the executive elected and then we can defile the legislature.
01:33:38
Emmanuel Taban
And then when when i when I analyzed that, when I look at that suggestion by Luca Biang, um You know, it's it's it really doesn't mean, I mean, that if you are someone who is highly educated as Bjorn, then you also have the monopoly of knowledge sometimes, right? So whereas i I respect him, I have a very profound respect for him, but I also criticize some of his ah some of his opinions on his article that he published.
01:34:08
Emmanuel Taban
For instance, when you look at the Niso statements that he released on that article, he actually has cited that the reason why the River Eliza agreement has come to standstill is because of the incident that happened early this year in Nasser.
01:34:24
Emmanuel Taban
And then heat again he, again, he went deeper and said that the White Army, and then the he continued that, which is lie to the SPLMIO, or which I disagree with him, that the White Army, you know, several times,
01:34:41
Emmanuel Taban
The SPLMIO, Machar, has come out and say he has no command over the White Army. The White Army operates separately, operates differently as an independent armed militia group that is not linked to the SPLMI party. And some of the leaders of the White Army yeah have also come out and say they're not linked to the SPLMI. But in that article, ago when I looked at it, and then he referred to the White Army as I lied to, I think I started questioning his's um I started trying to find out some biases that he was trying to put in that article.
01:35:15
Emmanuel Taban
And just so you say, the most interesting part of that article, I think it's where he suggested that the country should go for a partial election where we can only have an executive electorate. And in the executive, he mentioned that we can only have the president, perhaps, and his branding made. We can have the governor as elected and then the chief administrator for the administrative areas and maybe also commissioners. We can have them elected in the counties.
01:35:39
Emmanuel Taban
which is very interesting. And then we cannot, we're not going to have a legislature that is elected. We can have either an appointed legislature or we don't have the legislators at all. I don't know if that is what he meant, but obviously if you're not going to have a legislature, that will mean we will have one that is appointed by the elected president, or we're not just going to have a legislature.
01:36:01
Emmanuel Taban
And that brings me to think about the reasons of having a legislature in a democratic state. You know, in every democracy, you always have the three organs of a government that works together. You know, they are interwined,
01:36:16
Emmanuel Taban
None of them operates without the other. We always have the executives. that The executive comprises of the presidency, whether be the vice president and the president, and then the cabinet ministers of the states. And then we do have the elected representatives of the people. In fact, the most important part of any government, the most important organ of the government is the legislature. Because these are people who come down from the constituencies that have actually known what the problem that people are facing are.
01:36:43
Emmanuel Taban
Right? So leave alone the judiciary. So the legislature, if we are not going to have the legislature, so what is going to be the mandate of this government? i mean The function, the use of the legislature is such that these people hold the government, the executive accountable. They can have the powers of the executive checked. These people can go and actually debate on bills.
01:37:08
Emmanuel Taban
that can be enacted later and become roles of a country that performs a very vital part of any country. So if we are not going to have this legislature in place, this means we are going to have an executive that is unchecked. We are going to have an executive that ah the presidents will have absolute powers He appoints, and and for instance, if we say we're going to have and a legislature that is appointed by the president, we will have these people appointed and they will just be like a rubber stamp for the executive or the president because they know that they're appointed by the president, they must always do everything that favors the president.
01:37:45
Emmanuel Taban
If you're not going to, if the president decides to come with a bill and these people are going to vote for, they must always vote for it because they know if any of them don't vote for that bill, they are going to be chased out. They're going to be part of that legislature. That is the danger of not having a legislature in in in any country.
01:38:03
Emmanuel Taban
So i when i when I saw that and then I questioned his, I don't know where he got his argument from, why that the country should go into it with their legislature.
01:38:16
Emmanuel Taban
In fact, If there's anything that needs to be eliminated, it's not even the legislature, but the executive, which is not even you have an executive, maybe. But I mean, just like I said before, they all play a very prominent part.
01:38:28
Emmanuel Taban
So in any democracy, the three organs of government are very important. The executive, they come up with, they craft the policies that they want the country to embrace, solutions. And therefore, if ah maybe these are these technocrats that works in the ministries, that under the undersecretaries, if they come with these policies and they draft them, they can use maybe the government members of parliament, maybe a leader of the government businesses in parliament, they can take these bills to the parliament. They debate about them, right? They debate about them and if they feel they go and make consultation with the people down there and if they feel the people really want this to be enacted into bill and they go and vote for it.
01:39:09
Emmanuel Taban
So if we don't have this process established, so we are going to have a very authoritarian executive that is going to have powers and checks that is going to pass finance but finance bill that is uh money that we don't know where it's going to go i mean it's it's just going to be a total uh kleptocracy and the kind of a total authoritarianism in a country and that doesn't really make any sense So I don't subscribe to the belief of Dr. Byung that we love apao alex we should In fact, I have the argument that going for a partial election is more dangerous than going for an election in 2026.
01:39:51
Emmanuel Taban
So if if if the president says we should go for a Passover election, i just at least let's go for a general election then in 2026. It's less dangerous than than having Passover election.
01:40:05
Emmanuel Taban
That is it. But also another element of his um of of this argument where he said we should have like... a technocratic political structure where we can have the current presidency, ah the presidency, there's the president and vice president, and then instead of having a cabinet
01:40:15
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
01:40:26
Emmanuel Taban
cabinet of ministers, we can have some technocrats, people who have been working in the civil service for quite long, probably the undersecretaries in all ministries, they can form that cabinet and they become the ministers. And so should be applied to states where the most senior civil servant in the state should be the governor. and also the undersecretaries in those state ministries can be or can form the cabinet ministries.
Citizen Participation and Structural Reforms
01:40:50
Emmanuel Taban
That is what he suggested. And and that is something that is is it's debatable. But again, i mean, I feel like we are going to create some kind of a ah a government that is based on on on on status, on on class. I mean, we're not going to... because If we have like a free kind of government where we can have someone who has not even acquired the highest level of education, he can still go and become a member of parliament, even even appointed a minister. But if we try to create some technocratic kind of government, I think it's going to eliminate so many people out of the system. There are people who have the will. We have two different kinds of people.
01:41:28
Emmanuel Taban
We people who have the qualification but don't have the will. But we do have some people who don't have the qualification but they do have their will. So what we need right now as a country, we need people with good political will rather than qualification. We might need the qualification as well, but we don't really, we're not looking at that highest level of qualification. We don't look at seniority. If seniority would so would actually solve the problem of South Sudan, they would have it solved because most of the people who are today in government, these are senior top government officials who have been there since the liberation of the country, but they have done nothing for the country. So I don't buy his beliefs of that at all.
01:42:07
Emmanuel Taban
I don't agree with what he said. Yeah.
01:42:11
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And i I genuinely actually do believe that whereas the suggestions by Dr. Luca Byung are good to some extent, ah they just are a temporary fix.
01:42:30
Patrick Abure
Not really... a very radical structural change. I don't think it would be able to deliver that, which I think is what we need as a country.
01:42:38
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:42:41
Patrick Abure
We need structural changes. We need reforms that change how things at a structural level operate in South Sudan.
01:42:53
Patrick Abure
and And going ahead with these temporary fixes could be very dangerous, like you have said, and could end up concentrating power on the president, whoever gets elected, if it is Kir, or Ryak Machar, or any other person.
01:42:53
Emmanuel Taban
That's right.
01:43:18
Patrick Abure
to basically end up concentrating power on these people. And the idea of having the executive and the judiciary and the legislature as and independent flies out of the window.
01:43:38
Patrick Abure
Because basically, like you've said, they become more like a subsection of the executive that are entirely controlled by and loyal to the executive.
01:43:51
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:43:53
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And I think that is even very dangerous.
01:43:54
Emmanuel Taban
That's right.
01:43:57
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:43:57
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:44:00
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, it's.
01:44:00
Patrick Abure
Probably we we should look beyond that. Yeah.
01:44:03
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, maybe maybe that's what I was about to say. Maybe maybe i I think I need to go back into his article and then make a deep analysis of it. But otherwise, he had very interesting arguments there, which would provide a temporary solution to the problem of the country.
01:44:18
Emmanuel Taban
But in the long run, I feel it's it's it's not really going to work out. Yeah. All right.
01:44:22
Patrick Abure
Yeah, yeah. it It gives the president a lot of powers without any political checks.
01:44:30
Emmanuel Taban
Thanks, John.
01:44:33
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:44:34
Patrick Abure
Yeah. So I don't know. i mean, unless maybe we want to go into a totalitarian totalitarianist state where everything is controlled by the president.
01:44:50
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, but I really don't want to do that because there's nowhere in the world that members of parliament are appointed.
01:44:54
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:45:00
Emmanuel Taban
you can never have an appointment. There some instances where we can have an appointed member of parliament, but that is also, should be in the constitution where we do have a ah maybe some people that are appointed to represent some special groups in the parliament, you know, like maybe ah maybe like unions or we do have the army or we have the youths.
01:45:10
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:45:26
Emmanuel Taban
Like in Uganda, we do have a, members of parliament representing these special groups. So sometimes some of them are appointed, but not majority of them, not ones that actually represents the main constituencies.
01:45:39
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:45:39
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Definitely. I think maybe, i genuinely wish we had the opportunity to have Dr. Luca Biong here.
01:45:52
Patrick Abure
It would be nice to have this conversation with him directly.
01:45:52
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. It's nice, really. Yeah, that was going to be a good one.
01:45:58
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:46:01
Emmanuel Taban
But yeah, just like I say, Byung is it's it's one of the few elites that the the country is proud of. so And he has been writing lots of ah notes of ah lots of articles and he wrote some books as well.
01:46:18
Emmanuel Taban
And yeah, he's he's a great guy. But also, people no not i mean watching understand that you know we are all humans. we sometimes make decisions that a can be criticized, right?
01:46:35
Emmanuel Taban
So no one has the monopoly of knowledge, just like I said, right?
01:46:35
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:46:40
Emmanuel Taban
So whereas you give ah views about certain things, you should also be ready to be criticized about
01:46:40
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
Implementing Peace and Accountability
01:46:48
Emmanuel Taban
them because as humans, we don't look at things in the same angle, right?
01:46:52
Emmanuel Taban
We are created differently, have different perspectives on certain things.
01:46:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:46:55
Emmanuel Taban
So, yeah. That was it.
01:46:57
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. Yeah. And I also do think that whereas, you know, there are definitely two sides to the suggestions made by Luca Biong that can be explored and maybe discussed in depth and that maybe perhaps could offer, you know, some good temporary fixes.
01:47:25
Patrick Abure
I think something that ah maybe even takes this critic of of his ideas a little bit deeper is what civil society and observers are calling and say,
01:47:43
Patrick Abure
should South Sudan go into an election in 2026, South Sudan needs security, independent institutions, agreed rules, you know, of how to conduct the elections and everything, but also inclusive participation from all interests.
01:48:05
Patrick Abure
And I would think that Even if it did the suggestions by Young were good, and let's say maybe parties accepted them.
01:48:16
Patrick Abure
If they do not accept them, it would be difficult for them to be implemented.
01:48:21
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:48:22
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Yeah.
01:48:23
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's that's right. You know, we can't really have independent in independentlin institutions because the independency of institutions, when we look at the transitional constitution of South Sudan, it establishes most of the institutions and how they're supposed to operate.
01:48:40
Emmanuel Taban
So um the independency of any institution is only in the constitution.
01:48:47
Emmanuel Taban
in the constitutions So, but in an instance where we're heading towards an election without the constitution, so where are we going to refer to the the independence of this institution?
01:48:49
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Yeah.
01:48:58
Emmanuel Taban
We are not going to have any li binding document that can actually protect these institutions to be independent because we don't have it. So that that that raises still the biggest question of having the elections without the permanent constitutions being established in the country.
01:49:15
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:49:15
Patrick Abure
yeah
01:49:17
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
01:49:17
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
01:49:19
Patrick Abure
Yeah. We still have a lot of important reforms that need to be made.
01:49:19
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:49:27
Emmanuel Taban
A lot of important ones. We don't, we we even need, even our army alone, ah we don't have a unified, by the way, the most dangerous thing in every country is to have two different rival armies.
01:49:42
Emmanuel Taban
That's one biggest thing. I mean, we can't have like, two different armies in one country. That is the biggest, I mean, that that that is a time bomb.
01:49:54
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, we can we can easily see it.
01:49:54
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
01:49:56
Emmanuel Taban
We don't have a unified army in the country.
01:49:56
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
01:49:58
Emmanuel Taban
We have armies that subscribe to individuals. They're under the command of individuals. And we want to go to an elections in a country such as this, where we don't have one army, where the other one subscribes to the president and then the other one subscribes to
01:50:04
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
01:50:15
Emmanuel Taban
ah the opponent and that is so dangerous that is a big that is a dangerous thing we don't have the the the army as an institution tasked to protect the citizens of the country united we don't have an independent and it established electoral commission that is supposed to actually run the entire process of an election
01:50:27
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:50:37
Emmanuel Taban
If at all we do have it, if it is independent, but it is not well funded. And therefore we cannot have an independent one if it's not well funded. How is it going to run all the processes? We don't even have an established hybrid code that the peace agreement had suggested that should be established before an election. We don't have that hybrid code.
01:50:56
Emmanuel Taban
How are we going to solve grievances post-elections? when things people find that they are not they feel that they've been rigged or the election was not credible there was kind of staffing and malpractices during the election how are they going to to handle this issue how is it going to solve who are these people going to run to for help we don't have these institutions established so i mean it's very hard to have an elections in such an an environment right yeah
01:51:00
Patrick Abure
Right. right
01:51:25
Patrick Abure
Yeah, definitely. That is going to be difficult. And actually, that really reminded me of something.
01:51:30
Emmanuel Taban
What?
01:51:35
Patrick Abure
So Dr. Luca Biong, in his piece, argues that civil society and citizens must not be sidelined.
01:51:48
Patrick Abure
ah in the processes leading up to the elections and that civil society and citizens who should help to monitor, ah inform, and hold the leaders accountable. And I'm just wondering, like, from your own perspective, what critical role can civil society, women, and youth play in this regard?
01:52:19
Patrick Abure
in terms of the transition and the processes leading up to the election.
01:52:25
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, that we we know in every country the same the role of a civil society in almost every country is is very important. And because they, in most cases, are in contact with the common people, they really know what the people want. And therefore, you cannot exclude such um i mean a civil society from every process of a country because they seems to be the one that really understands the people better.
01:52:53
Emmanuel Taban
but So when we do have groups like the women, the youth, these are all people who are very important. But again, as Byung argued that we should have them included all the process, it it really might be hard for us to have them included. That means there's some kind of logistical conditions that needs to be made for these people to be included, right?
01:53:16
Emmanuel Taban
We need to have them maybe taken through some kind of ah ah engagements or have some trainings or even have some conversation with the the leaders and and have to listen from them and also the leaders have to listen from these groups.
01:53:16
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
01:53:31
Emmanuel Taban
But if we are not going to have an environment provided, because some of these youth, some of these civil society, They really don't hold the same views, just like the political elites. And at some point, they want to criticize some of the beliefs that these people hold. But if we don't have that space created where the leaders can be criticized openly, then it becomes so hard for me to air out my grievances as a civil society activists or any other maybe women or young people.
01:54:04
Emmanuel Taban
It's going to be hard because they will fear for their lives. They will fear that if they do this, they become critical of the establishment, they will probably be monitored and and and be be followed wherever they go.
01:54:17
Emmanuel Taban
So that's that's the danger. But of course, they are very important in every democratic process of the country. Civil society is important. Women groups important. Youth groups as well very important in every country. So we cannot eliminate them and then we say we're going to have a democratic state established with the absence of these people, absence of their voices, it's hard to have a democratic state established.
01:54:40
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. totally agree with you. And I think, like you, i do definitely believe that South Sudanese citizens cannot and must not be spectators to this process, but they must be active and critical actors that are part
01:54:59
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Yeah.
01:55:05
Patrick Abure
and parcel of this process of the election, should that actually happen? ah For example, things like, for example, um education of the voters or what do we know as a civic education.
01:55:23
Patrick Abure
I think this is a very critical role that civil society can play in that regard, as well as local, women groups, youth groups, and very many different other groups, basically, but also peace messaging.
01:55:42
Patrick Abure
And rightly said by you, this could be, for example, post-election. I think peace messaging can be very critical and partial.
01:55:54
Patrick Abure
We've seen how ah sometimes post-election violence can be so devastating. And I think Kenya has been an example of that in so many cases.
01:56:08
Patrick Abure
And I think that civil society and South Sudanese citizens can play a critical role you know, in peace messaging, ah but also in monitoring the elections and documenting abuses.
01:56:23
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:56:25
Patrick Abure
Yeah. I mean, African countries are not like...
01:56:26
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:56:30
Patrick Abure
her india I would say not foreign to the culture of democratic process abuse, whether it being rigging, whether it being what, or even like sometimes suppression or repression of, for example, the opposition and stuff like that.
01:56:44
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:56:52
Emmanuel Taban
Okay.
01:56:54
Patrick Abure
And I think the citizens can play such a critical role in documenting some of these abuses.
01:57:03
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
01:57:03
Patrick Abure
Wouldn't you agree?
01:57:04
Emmanuel Taban
I totally agree with that. You know, um in in many, like when you have a process such as an election, um the common people play a very vital role, you know.
01:57:17
Emmanuel Taban
and and And there's what we call like ah the citizen journalism, where and The people do direct broadcasting, right, even in the polling station. There is one way of doing it. So people get to understand the environment around this polling station. What is it like?
01:57:35
Emmanuel Taban
Are there rigging being carried out? there ballot staffing or um ah people being surprised or being threatened to vote for specific candidates? You know, this this all needs to be allowed to be done for any state to be considered democratic.
01:57:52
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
01:57:52
Emmanuel Taban
And yeah, and and this, this just just like you mentioned about the civil society, they really do play a very important role.
01:58:01
Emmanuel Taban
Very, very important role. Just like you said in civic education, trying to educate the people on their civic duty as as a citizen. I mean, these are all very important roles. If we have a country that the people itself knows what their their their their roles, their duties are, I think they will carry it forward. It's a good one.
01:58:23
Emmanuel Taban
And that can only be done when we have the same society brought in and given all the the support and and the the space to actually play their duty in in that in a democratic state.
01:58:35
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
01:58:36
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. Yeah.
01:58:39
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
01:58:39
Patrick Abure
And I think that is important, especially now, now that there is a a deep fatigue, I think basically around everything to do with the peace deal and peace processes in the country.
01:58:54
Emmanuel Taban
right.
01:58:55
Patrick Abure
I think there's real fatigue because it almost feels as though we are not making progress at all.
01:59:04
Emmanuel Taban
What?
01:59:05
Patrick Abure
And I think in so many cases, that is so true. it's It's like we are literally two steps forward or five steps back.
01:59:19
Patrick Abure
Or one step forward and then two steps back, which is kind of, I think, devastating um but also with this fatigue there is some real hope like if you if you listen to a lot of south sudanese or read uh south sudanese content online i think you see like this south sudanese have real hope that you know things in the country will change and i and i think i am one of those too i genuinely do believe that things are going to get better
01:59:26
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
01:59:53
Patrick Abure
in South s Sudan, but I think it requires political will from our will leaders to make that.
01:59:58
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
02:00:01
Patrick Abure
So um maybe in your own view, what are some of the core things we should have in the place ah for us to have an election, a general election?
02:00:17
Emmanuel Taban
Very important. We do have most of these things stated in the agreement.
02:00:21
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
02:00:21
Emmanuel Taban
One important thing that we should have prior to the election is we need um a free space, a free political space given to everyone, whether you are in opposition or even if you are just a mere citizen but critical of the government, you must be given that free space to express your opinions, to express your views on certain things and and just just express it freely without the fear of...
02:00:56
Emmanuel Taban
rich tradition You know that you can get maybe arrested or tortured or arrested and all this kind of stuff that when I write a post on and my social media handles or when I speak out, I don't get to be threatened or followed after.
02:01:00
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
02:01:10
Emmanuel Taban
And then we need that space that when someone, a member of the opposition get into a national TV and speaks against is the government of the day, he is not, he can still go back home and then he s sleeps well.
02:01:23
Emmanuel Taban
These are the kind of the things we want because it is through such free political spaces that we can easily transition into a democratic state.
02:01:33
Emmanuel Taban
We cannot have a democratic state when we don't have a free space given to people who are critical of the government or people who are critical to those in power. When we do have people critical you get to learn from them you know when you are government in place you should always take that advantage of having critics because some of these critics do have very very uh good ideas that you could actually use and just make things work for yourself and your government and you render service to the people so creating that free political space for everyone to express themselves in whatsoever where they want very very important and that should be done before election
02:01:49
Patrick Abure
Absolutely.
02:02:10
Emmanuel Taban
of which I don't think it's existing right now. We do have people who are threatened, and that's unfortunate. Second of all, we need the permanent constitution, just like the peace agreement has said.
02:02:20
Emmanuel Taban
It is through that piece that permanent constitution that gets to establish and then define the powers of the president. It is through that permanent constitution that actually defines how long the president is going to serve maybe for how many terms, what powers it holds, what state does the South Sudan even, what what what what is the status, because we do still have undefined status our country.
02:02:36
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
02:02:44
Emmanuel Taban
We don't know if we are federal state or we don't know if we are a centralized kind of a state because the peace agreement is stated that the majority of South Sudanese would want to be a federal state. but it will only be defined in the constitution. So we can have a federal state where we have the national government and then we do have the states operating separately with different government, have the different policies, have their different system, bars different education system, have their different policies on housing, their different policies on healthcare and things to do with transportation. But also we do have other oh areas where the two governments can actually work on together things to do with taxation, maybe the national army and security of the country, immigration.
02:03:26
Emmanuel Taban
We do have this.
02:03:26
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
02:03:27
Emmanuel Taban
We need this to be done, the permanent constitution, and it is only in the permanent constitution that can define what state South Sudan is. It is through the permanent constitution that defines the powers of the president, and this is not done.
02:03:42
Emmanuel Taban
We also need to have a population census. It is through this population census that can inform the voter register. that tells us how many people are registered in the country, what is even the population of the country, how many people are registered as voters, how many people are there in this state, how many people, what is the state with the highest number of ah of individuals of South Sudanese, how many constituencies are we supposed to create at this state since it has is the most populated state, how many constituents are we supposed to come to to bring out of here. So this is the purpose of having
02:04:14
Emmanuel Taban
And what the purpose of having population census, but also the other importance of having a population census is such that we get to know about the number of people living in ah in a particular state so it can inform the government on resource allocation. We get to know that since we have this number of people, we're supposed to take these resources, this number of resources to these people so that it can actually facilitate. their well-being can provide services, whether it be allocation of funds and other things by the central government, it's supposed to be determined by the number of people living in that state.
02:04:44
Emmanuel Taban
So we can't do that without knowing the number of people. These are very important things. We need reform institutions. The electoral commission needs to be independent, needs to be funded. You know, a judiciary with a hybrid code created. That is not that.
02:04:58
Emmanuel Taban
So these are some of the things that I feel have to be done before we get into one election.
02:04:59
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
02:05:05
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
02:05:06
Patrick Abure
Absolutely. And I think honestly, you know, as you were speaking, I was like, yeah, you're just to saying the peace agreement should be fully implemented as it was.
02:05:07
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
02:05:11
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right.
02:05:15
Emmanuel Taban
It's not the insult.
02:05:18
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
02:05:18
Emmanuel Taban
This critical way to implement the peace agreement.
02:05:21
Patrick Abure
Yes, fully as it is.
02:05:22
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Exactly.
02:05:24
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I totally agree with you. yeah as a we wrap up, what are your final thoughts?
02:05:27
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
02:05:30
Emmanuel Taban
Oh,
02:05:32
Emmanuel Taban
oh My final choice is also the news we're excited about having an election. You should. There's nothing exciting about having an election next year if we don't have all these preliminary elements met.
02:05:45
Emmanuel Taban
If we don't have a permanent constitution, if we don't have population census, if we don't have independent institutions established and reformed judiciary with the hybrid code established, there's nothing to be excited about having an election next year.
02:05:58
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
02:05:59
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And I think also like if one has the opportunity to have conversations, so at least, you know, make our voices known to these leaders, it's very important to do that.
02:06:10
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly. Right. Right. Because I feel the government is riding on the notion that the majority of South Sudanese needs an election.
02:06:13
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
02:06:19
Emmanuel Taban
So I think it is also we need to come up and say, no, we don't need elections since we don't have these things met so that they can also maybe know our view that has changed. Now we don't want elections because we have certain things not met.
02:06:33
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Yeah.
02:06:34
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
02:06:36
Patrick Abure
And I think even like also the survey, the recent survey made it very clear that as South Sudanese, we do not just want elections, but we need security.
02:06:36
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
02:06:50
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
02:06:50
Patrick Abure
ah We need fairness in the elections, but also basically stability in the country. So this very critical thing.
02:06:58
Emmanuel Taban
Exactly.
02:06:59
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
02:07:00
Emmanuel Taban
he That's true.
02:07:02
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
02:07:04
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
02:07:04
Patrick Abure
Well, Emmanuel, thank you so much for coming on to the Spark It podcast once again. It's been a good conversation.
02:07:11
Emmanuel Taban
No problem, man. Thanks a lot for having me. I know, yeah. Good one. Good.
02:07:20
Patrick Abure
Yeah, man. Thank you.
02:07:22
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
02:07:22
Patrick Abure
Yeah. um To anyone listening, if you've been following this conversation with Emmanuel and myself, Patrick, thank you very much. Leave us a comment or maybe share this episode with anyone you know and keep the conversation going.
02:07:40
Patrick Abure
Thank you very much. This has been the Spark It Podcast. Peace. Yeah. yeah
02:07:47
Emmanuel Taban
Oh, great one.