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EP 26: Kenya vs. Uganda: Museveni’s Indian Ocean Claim Breaks the Internet │ The Spark It Podcast
9 Plays10 days ago
Uganda’s President Yoweri Kaguta Museveni shocked East Africa after claiming the Indian Ocean “belongs” to him (Uganda) —sparking outrage, humor, and serious geopolitical debate. In this episode, we break down the legal, historical, military, and economic implications of the statement. From Kenya’s online reactions to Uganda’s landlocked position, EAC politics, regional security, and the role of social media activism, this conversation unpacks it all. We also discuss unrest in Tanzania and the rising Gen Z movement across Africa. Tune in for a sharp, insightful, and humorous breakdown of a statement that rattled the region.
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Transcript
Introduction to Museveni's Ocean Claim
00:00:00
Patrick Abure
Welcome to the Spark It podcast. I'm your host, Helen Kimaru. And today we are diving into a bold and controversial statement made by Uganda's President Yoweri Mseveni after he suggested that Uganda should have ownership or at least direct access to the Indian Ocean. These comments have created a heated debate across East Africa about sovereignty, trade, international law, and the future of regional
Implications of Museveni's Statement
00:00:25
Patrick Abure
cooperation. To help us unpack the legal, economic, strategic, and political dimensions of these, I'm joined by our political analyst, Emmanuel Taban. Welcome back to the podcast, Emmanuel.
00:00:37
Emmanuel Taban
Thank you, Kimaru. And nice to see you again on the Spark It podcast. It's exciting always to be here.
00:00:44
Patrick Abure
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us once again. And for those who don't know, maybe those who are probably watching us for the first time, you should check out his podcast.
00:00:55
Patrick Abure
It's called The Concerned Podcast on all platforms. He's a political analyst and he does a lot of commentary on politics, especially around East African countries. Yes, a lot of good things to check out there.
00:01:08
Patrick Abure
So um on today's episode, I know you heard what Museveni said. You even, I think, did an episode about it. So we are going to to unpack that because for me, I have been, ah i was watching what he said and then i would go to comment in sections and read the things people were saying.
00:01:17
Emmanuel Taban
right
00:01:26
Patrick Abure
And for me, it was just, it was funny. It was so hilarious. And people are like, oh, if he wants more, he can come and get it. So, ah so Immanuel, you can get us started.
00:01:38
Patrick Abure
What do you think about what Museveni said?
00:01:42
Emmanuel Taban
i when When I first saw the video, um
00:01:46
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
Public and Historical Reactions
00:01:47
Emmanuel Taban
I thought maybe he was speaking um in some kind of a... I mean, you know, in English, they they always have like these literary words where they don't really mean words directly.
00:01:59
Emmanuel Taban
But when I saw the...
00:02:00
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:02:02
Emmanuel Taban
When watched the video clearly, I realized that I think he was really... um He really meant what he was saying. And a few... a few I think a few hours when he said that statement...
00:02:15
Emmanuel Taban
I also went on the on the on the page of ah the Sun, who is the CDF, the Chief of Defence, and then it was like, it would only take them like for the eight eight hours or eight hours just to take over Kenya. I was like, what the hell is this?
00:02:30
Emmanuel Taban
So when i when I saw that statement, I didn't take it so serious, but when I saw the the level of debate that that statement actually initiated, then I started seeing that.
00:02:30
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:02:33
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:02:39
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:02:40
Emmanuel Taban
I think there is there iss something that is really, really serious about this statement here, and
00:02:40
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:02:44
Patrick Abure
okay
00:02:45
Emmanuel Taban
And so many people were not happy, especially Kenyans. And you know how Kenyans are. very very
00:02:50
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:02:51
Emmanuel Taban
They're always like very active online. And when they see things like that, oh, man, they don't take it lightly.
00:02:56
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:02:57
Emmanuel Taban
so They always go hard on you.
00:02:57
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:03:00
Emmanuel Taban
And I thought many of them are going very hard against them. President of the Ngueri and the sun. But it if it is what really he meant, that I think it's it's unprecedented. It's something that is uncalled for.
00:03:14
Patrick Abure
yeah what has been like the most hilarious thing you've seen like what are what what have people been saying
00:03:14
Emmanuel Taban
here
00:03:23
Emmanuel Taban
I think when he said that Osen belongs to me, some people were like, the moon also belongs to us.
00:03:33
Patrick Abure
yeah
00:03:35
Emmanuel Taban
They were like, the moon also belongs to us, so no one's will temper with it. I was like, oh.
00:03:41
Patrick Abure
and just Someone says, like i already miss the fish in Indian Ocean.
00:03:47
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Yeah, it's it there are so many hilarious comments actually came up after the statement.
00:03:53
Patrick Abure
ah
00:03:54
Emmanuel Taban
And yeah yeah, they are very, very hilarious and exciting at the same time.
00:03:56
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:03:59
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:04:00
Patrick Abure
Actually, before we continue, i would love to read like a few.
00:04:00
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:04:04
Patrick Abure
ah that there some Even Ugandans actually chimed in into this conversation and they had a lot to say. Like someone said, we as Ugandans are protecting the gains. So every gain our president states, we have to get and protect.
00:04:18
Patrick Abure
So anytime Kenya, we are coming for our worship.
00:04:18
Emmanuel Taban
is
00:04:23
Emmanuel Taban
but i mean It is funny how, like when the president says the ocean belongs to him.
00:04:27
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:04:30
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, Uganda is a landlocked country. It's very far away from the Indian Ocean, only connected to Tanzania and Kenya.
00:04:33
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:04:38
Emmanuel Taban
So when the president says that the Indian Ocean belongs to him, what does it mean? I mean, that that could only mean that maybe he is trying to do some kind of, ah maybe annex some part of Kenya that can lead him to the Indian Ocean. Because there is no way that Uganda...
00:04:54
Emmanuel Taban
is part of the Indian Ocean. It is far detached away from from the coast of the Indian Ocean.
00:04:55
Patrick Abure
Yeah, true.
00:05:01
Emmanuel Taban
So there's no way Uganda can claim ownership of the Indian Ocean.
00:05:01
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:05:05
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:05:06
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:05:07
Patrick Abure
And then another one says, he didn't say it is for us Ugandans. He he said it's his, please. Leave us alone.
00:05:07
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:05:13
Emmanuel Taban
a And that's that's what even makes it worse. When you say this, it's over. It was like personification. So he wants to personalize the whole Indian Ocean tree.
00:05:23
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:05:26
Emmanuel Taban
That even makes it more hilarious.
00:05:26
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:05:28
Emmanuel Taban
You know, when you say something of that kind is your personal property, I mean, it it really doesn't make sense.
00:05:29
Patrick Abure
yeah
00:05:33
Patrick Abure
who
00:05:34
Emmanuel Taban
But also, I think Uganda has history of ah of ah like annexation of parts of East Africa.
00:05:38
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:05:44
Emmanuel Taban
You know, when you remember, it's especially under Ida Mindadao,
00:05:44
Patrick Abure
That's true.
00:05:48
Emmanuel Taban
ah in I think that was in ah around 1976, when Ida Min was the president of Uganda by then.
00:05:48
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:05:56
Emmanuel Taban
There were similar claims where he wanted to annex some parts of Kenya.
00:05:57
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:06:00
Emmanuel Taban
I think it was around the the parts of Turkana. So he really wanted to annex that part. And then he sent a very strong message to the then president of Kenya that is Udala. Jomo Kenyatta, which Jomo Kenyatta was, I think, very strong. So he came out with a statement warning President Idemin not to play around with that. And he had even to deploy some some troops at the border between Uganda and Kenya. So i think that's when he backed down.
00:06:25
Emmanuel Taban
But not only Kenya, there's there's also, a you know, the reason why... um Ida Min was overthrown from ah the presidency in 1979 when he fled the country.
00:06:37
Emmanuel Taban
It's because of similar cases of wanting to annex some parts of Tanzania. There's a ah part of the Kagera River where he he deployed his armed forces there. And by that time, he overthrew the president of Uganda by the name of ah Dr. Milton Ubotte.
00:06:52
Emmanuel Taban
and Obote went and stayed in exile in Tanzania.
00:06:53
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:06:55
Emmanuel Taban
There are also some kind, some some some some soldiers, I think, loyal to Obote who were all exiled in Tanzania. So when he took his troops to annexed part of Kagera in Tanzania, so what they did is Tanzania by then under President Julius Kabarenke Nyerere, they actually came and they fought against Amin's forces.
00:07:03
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:07:17
Emmanuel Taban
They chased them out of Tanzania up to Kampala. In fact, they had to come and up up to Uganda with the help of the Tanzanian forces and they chased out the president of Uganda, Ida Min, he had to to flee the country.
00:07:28
Patrick Abure
Oh, wow.
00:07:33
Emmanuel Taban
And that is when Obote was reinstated for his second presidency.
00:07:33
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:07:38
Emmanuel Taban
So Uganda has a history in that.
00:07:38
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:07:41
Emmanuel Taban
so
00:07:41
Patrick Abure
A history, yeah.
00:07:42
Emmanuel Taban
ah praza Maybe President Museveni has forgotten nothing from what happened to Ida Min by then. yeah
00:07:48
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:07:48
Emmanuel Taban
so But it's a very dangerous move, I think, that he is trying to make.
00:07:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah. And also even with Lake Victoria, there's also been issues with the particular Magingo Island. For a long time, fishermen from Kenya, I think that island does not necessarily belong to Uganda or Kenya. They do share it But if a fishermen from Kenya have always had trouble.
00:08:07
Emmanuel Taban
Hmm.
00:08:10
Patrick Abure
then there's always even growing up would hear those stories there's always a back and forth between kenya and uganda about even who owns migingo island yeah as you said it's like it's just something that has been ongoing and even i think it either it is idemine or museveni they also said like parts of kenya in the context of up to naivasha i think it was idiamine up to naivasha too was was part of uganda and you know naivasha is so close to nairobi so it's like all that western region of kenya could have been part of uganda if they had been serious about it interesting ah
00:08:47
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. It's it's it' a serious one. It's a serious case, yeah.
00:08:50
Patrick Abure
o
00:08:51
Emmanuel Taban
All
Uganda's Access to the Ocean
00:08:52
Patrick Abure
So Uganda being like a landlocked country, what claim does it lay on the sea in the context of trade and stuff like this? Or how does it work?
00:08:53
Emmanuel Taban
right.
00:09:06
Emmanuel Taban
i
00:09:06
Patrick Abure
Because it's a landlocked country.
00:09:08
Emmanuel Taban
yeah I think like every every country has a...
00:09:09
Patrick Abure
Sorry.
00:09:13
Emmanuel Taban
For instance, when you look in the constitutions of so many countries, you'll find that out ah in the initial stages of the constitution, like I mean, in the first articles, mainly
00:09:17
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:09:26
Emmanuel Taban
they define the territories of countries. you know it defines ah For instance, they say Kenya, ah the land Kenya includes maybe places like these, from extending to this, bordering this, in the West, in the East, in the
00:09:39
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:09:40
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:09:40
Emmanuel Taban
and and then the Indian Ocean, maybe be like in many constitutions, it's always indicated there.
00:09:47
Emmanuel Taban
So I feel Uganda as well has its territories that belong to Uganda clearly so um indicated in their constitution and so do other countries.
00:09:47
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:09:58
Emmanuel Taban
But also we do have, apart from being in and individual countries, you know, ah we often say that there's no country which is an island. I mean, countries have to coexist.
00:10:10
Emmanuel Taban
And in the move to do that, there are so many other and ah and initiatives that have been initiated, like things to do with integrations.
00:10:10
Patrick Abure
yeah
00:10:20
Emmanuel Taban
And that that comes in where we have like the East African community, which brings together like-minded countries like Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi, South Sudan, Congo, all together.
00:10:24
Patrick Abure
her
00:10:32
Emmanuel Taban
And there are always agreements that actually these countries have that ah forms that that informs their are coming together. So I feel there must be also ah some kind of ah rules on how these countries can relate when it comes to to to things of accessing the the the oceans, like what countries like Uganda, like South Sudan, that are mainly detached from the coast.
00:10:56
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:10:58
Emmanuel Taban
Very important... ah ah go routes to the countries, how they engage with the country. So I think this is where the East African community ah part comes comes into play. I think it's it's it's it's it doesn't look really good when a country claims ownership of the other. In these years, we do have the territories of individual countries was stated in their constitution.
00:11:25
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:11:26
Emmanuel Taban
Whereas Uganda is a landlord country, i think they they kenya I don't think Kenya has ever denied them access to the Indian Ocean. Probably there's a way how they access the Indian Ocean through Tanzania and Kenya.
00:11:35
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:11:40
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:11:41
Emmanuel Taban
They can easily get their goods transferred to their country. and and like oh finance their economy through access to the Indian Ocean, but they can get it only through Kenya and Tanzania.
00:11:53
Emmanuel Taban
So claiming ownership of it as an individual nation and landlocked country, I mean, it'ss it doesn't make any sense. there But I think they can access it.
00:12:01
Patrick Abure
yeah
00:12:02
Emmanuel Taban
Being members of the East African community, they have rules on how they operate regarding access to maybe the ocean and and some of the ports that are in in the ocean or in the coastal region.
00:12:14
Patrick Abure
yeah and Yeah, and actually they do use the port of Mombasa. Yeah, they they have access to the port of Mombasa. And a lot of times there's trade between the port of Mombasa and Uganda. There's always trucks moving around. And the thing is, all these goods that go to Uganda that come from the port of Mombasa, when they get to Uganda, they're usually cheaper than what we as Kenyans who own a port Actually, like these are expensive here in comparison to Uganda. So from an economic point of view, I wonder if they are doing so well, why do they still want like to sort of have ownership yet when they use their pot, their stuff is...
Political Diversion Tactics?
00:12:56
Patrick Abure
cheaper and it passes through Kenya but us we buy expensively do you think that ah in ah in ah kind in an economic um like they have like sort of an economic disadvantage or this is just stories that Museveni is trying to make up
00:13:13
Emmanuel Taban
i you know i was there There's one thing that I was um i was thinking about, this whole statement. The timing of the the timing of ah ah the statement was...
00:13:21
Patrick Abure
mm-hmm
00:13:25
Emmanuel Taban
it it it meant I actually started thinking so deep because when Museveni was issuing that statement, that was the very day when he actually said...
00:13:29
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:13:34
Patrick Abure
Ah.
00:13:39
Emmanuel Taban
ah about the guys the ken the two Kenyans who were actually detained in in in in Uganda.
00:13:42
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:13:46
Emmanuel Taban
So that was the time when they were released and then they were taken back to Kenya and Museveni came out and said, actually we had some two Kenyans who were under detention, we kept them and we had their masters of Mandamano or Keo, so we had to keep them in in in in freezers and all kinds of things.
00:13:46
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:14:04
Emmanuel Taban
so and And that statement alone, I mean, that story was so popular on the Kenyan media and kind of like, I mean, on the discussion on the internet was so was really, really so popular.
00:14:04
Patrick Abure
Oh.
00:14:11
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:14:16
Emmanuel Taban
And when I feel like and And also that was the same time when the issues to do with the Tanzanian elections were going on. right And people were so confused about like, what is going on exactly in East Africa?
00:14:29
Emmanuel Taban
What what are all these countries?
00:14:29
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:14:31
Emmanuel Taban
And and I feel like that statement issued by Museven was deliberate maybe to divert the major focus of the people from disc discussing about the abduction of the two Kenyans who were kept in freezers, but also the elections that were was going on in
00:14:39
Patrick Abure
In
00:14:47
Emmanuel Taban
in in but yeah in Tanzania.
00:14:47
Patrick Abure
and Tanzania.
00:14:50
Emmanuel Taban
But that that's what I was just like, I was thinking maybe they were trying to, because I mean, there was no even clear communication from the foreign ministry of Kenya.
00:15:00
Emmanuel Taban
They never came out and then ah like tried to criticize the statement issued by the president.
00:15:01
Patrick Abure
Mm-mm.
00:15:08
Emmanuel Taban
In fact, they were trying to support him and and that gave me thinking like, what what is happening here? So I was thinking that maybe the reason why they
00:15:14
Patrick Abure
That's
00:15:17
Emmanuel Taban
President issued a statement at that time, was just to divert the attention of Kenyans from calling for accountability about these young men who were tortured and kept in Kula, but also the the election, that the sham election that was happening in Tanzania, of which so many people did not agree with.
00:15:34
Patrick Abure
a good one.
00:15:36
Emmanuel Taban
and And I feel that people only...
00:15:36
Patrick Abure
who
00:15:39
Emmanuel Taban
like ah send their their congratulations message to Samir Zulu, and one of them was Ruto. But I also think Museveni is so much even worried about the elections there because he knows his country is going towards an election.
00:15:46
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:15:52
Emmanuel Taban
So the whole story, I feel like it was just meant to divert the attention of the public from discussing the major issues.
00:15:56
Patrick Abure
All
00:15:58
Emmanuel Taban
And also, you don't want like people to keep thinking and keeping eyes so much on the upcoming elections that is coming in Uganda very shortly. So maybe that is the intention.
00:16:06
Patrick Abure
right.
00:16:07
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. All right.
00:16:08
Patrick Abure
Yeah, I think actually you could be on to something because I think with the use of social media now, right now politicians are also becoming um very good at it.
00:16:19
Patrick Abure
They know how to spread propaganda and divert you from the real issues.
00:16:19
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:16:24
Patrick Abure
So you stop you stop talking about people being, you know, like being massacred in Tanzania or whatever was happening over there. So... Yeah, you are on to something. And that also brings me to maybe this is a little bit off topic, but kind of related in a way. You've mentioned something about mandamano gurus and something like that.
00:16:44
Patrick Abure
Do you think that East African countries right now view Kenyans as like, um how do I put it? I like the words. they view us as a threat because we do speak up so much and we are always willing to show up. Are we like a regional threat to, do they feel like we will influence their their people and they will revolt against their governments or what is happening?
00:17:10
Emmanuel Taban
i think I think so, but i wrote I don't really see Kenya as a threat, but rather I see Kenyans as an inspiration, especially in in the entire East Africa region.
00:17:19
Patrick Abure
Ah.
00:17:19
Emmanuel Taban
But it is only the politicians who look at Kenyans as a threat because they know the danger that comes with young people coming on the streets and calling for accountability.
00:17:20
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:17:29
Emmanuel Taban
Of course, they have seen that happen in different countries.
00:17:30
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:17:32
Emmanuel Taban
And by the way, the protests that happened last year in Kenya has not only inspired the protests across Africa, but even across the world. The protests that happened in Nepal, the protests that happened in Bangladesh and all around the world, in Madagascar, all this all came after the protests that was done in in in Kenya.
00:17:41
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:17:45
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:17:51
Patrick Abure
Okay, now.
00:17:51
Emmanuel Taban
And the Kenyan protests actually inspired most of these protests.
00:17:52
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:17:55
Emmanuel Taban
Before Kenya had what we call the Gen Z revolution revolution or the Gen Z protests, there was never anything termed as the Gen Z protests, never.
00:17:56
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:18:03
Emmanuel Taban
So that only came after the Kenyan protests.
00:18:04
Patrick Abure
I
00:18:06
Emmanuel Taban
ah To me, Kenya has inspired so many young people are across the world. So it's only the politicians who look at Kenyans as a threat.
00:18:11
Patrick Abure
will.
00:18:14
Emmanuel Taban
But to me, i don't I don't look at Kenyans like that. That's why when the president, Samir Suluhu, who came and then she was like, she's well known that there are other people from other countries who came to protest. And even the Kenyans who were kept in, ah they they were arrested during, they claimed that Kenyans went and joined Tanzanians in protest protesting.
00:18:34
Emmanuel Taban
ah Yeah, but it's to me it's only a section of politicians who look at Kenyans in that lens.
00:18:34
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:18:40
Emmanuel Taban
But to me it's an inspiration. It's a good thing to call for accountability. It's a good thing to call out leaders when they're not doing their duty. It's a good thing to to act according to your constitution.
00:18:50
Emmanuel Taban
Your constitution has given you the right to protest and picket. So there's there's nothing wrong about your acting according to your constitution. So there's nothing wrong acting according to a constitution of a country.
00:19:03
Emmanuel Taban
It's only those people who behind those positions who look at these young people as threat because they know when they come out in large numbers, they're likely to overthrow their governments. And when their governments fall, they're likely to fall as well.
00:19:16
Patrick Abure
Wow.
00:19:17
Patrick Abure
Yeah, honestly, we take this opportunity to give all the young people from Kenya their flowers for inspiring a revolution around the world.
00:19:17
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:19:23
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
Global Influence of Kenyan Protests
00:19:26
Patrick Abure
And come to think of it, I was watching some TikTok videos, I think yesterday, and I saw that, i was it is it is it a prime minister from Bangladesh who is being sentenced to death for what happened there?
00:19:26
Emmanuel Taban
Right.
00:19:37
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that's Bangladesh.
00:19:38
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:19:39
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:19:40
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:19:40
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, that was the former prime minister, actually.
00:19:41
Patrick Abure
so you
00:19:43
Emmanuel Taban
So he's sentenced to death.
00:19:43
Patrick Abure
wow
00:19:46
Patrick Abure
Yeah, so I think change change can happen. We just need to do something about it. And because we have the platform, we have the strength, we can advocate for ourselves, then we definitely need to do something.
00:19:58
Patrick Abure
And yeah, I would see why i take your point on the aspect of inspiration. it works are a lot better.
00:20:04
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
00:20:05
Patrick Abure
Wow. and is there a real strategic or military justification behind Museveni's linking access to national defense?
00:20:06
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
00:20:15
Patrick Abure
Or is just...
00:20:18
Emmanuel Taban
um I don't think there's any... there's any why Why would Museven want us to build a NAVI in the first place? i I don't really think there's any country that is acting a threat the security of country, rule the seas and all these.
00:20:28
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:20:32
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:20:36
Emmanuel Taban
So I don't think this there is theres there's need for Uganda really to to build on a very strong NAVI at the moment for what purposes. for what purposes and ah yeah And unless they are trying to to engage in an international war scale, that's why they they need it.
00:20:54
Emmanuel Taban
But if you're only aiming at protecting the security of Ugandans, I mean, there's no if there's any country perhaps who wants to, there's need to build a NAVI, it's Kenya, because they are alongside the coastal region, I mean, the Indian Ocean.
00:21:06
Emmanuel Taban
so But still, I don't see any any need, because there's no any, ken Kenya is not a threat to any country, and there's no any country that is acting as threat to Kenya at the moment.
00:21:13
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:21:16
Emmanuel Taban
So, I mean, the claims by Museveni about building a strong navi, I mean, and I look at them as like basically it doesn't hold any water to me.
00:21:16
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:21:24
Patrick Abure
It doesn't hold water.
00:21:27
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:29
Patrick Abure
Interesting.
Museveni's Election Rhetoric
00:21:30
Patrick Abure
and and come to think of it, ah do you think now that Museveni is vying for presidency once again for re-election in January, do you think that maybe some of these statements that he's been making lately could be because he wants to have that appeal on the people of Uganda, like, you know, I'm taking care of you, I'm taking care of our you know national interests or regional interests. Do you think that could be just, it's just politics at the end of the day?
00:21:58
Emmanuel Taban
but But again, what what what relevance does owning the Indian Ocean like be Ugandan, so common Ugandan, for what for what for what reasons? Like, the this I mean, I don't see it like as something something important to that common Ugandan.
00:22:14
Emmanuel Taban
You're talking about owning the Indian Ocean, you're talking about building a navi.
00:22:15
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:22:18
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, of what relevance is that to a common Ugandan? I mean, majority of Ugandans right now, they are really so much into... finding jobs and all this kind of stuff. So um speaking on an international scale, things maybe I don't think they really appeal to the young people or to the voters, not at all.
00:22:29
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:22:37
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:22:37
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, he might be seeking for re-election, but ah I think what he said, I don't look at it as being part of his campaign strategy, maybe to lure the voters to vote for him.
00:22:49
Emmanuel Taban
Because if you were talking maybe about accessing the Indian Ocean and so they could have maybe access to importing and exporting their goods, so the economy of the country, maybe that's what I would say that is trying to to to to appeal to the voters.
00:23:07
Emmanuel Taban
But ah just ownership of the Indian Ocean, I don't see it's very relevant thing to the common Ugandan.
00:23:12
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:23:13
Emmanuel Taban
All right.
00:23:14
Patrick Abure
Interesting. Wow. for any other landlocked ah African nation, should they have stronger guaranteed rights to the sea as a matter of regional equity and justice?
00:23:26
Patrick Abure
Or how do you think people should actually work around it, especially like different countries that, yeah?
00:23:31
Emmanuel Taban
but What I think is that, you know, in in a in as ah as a country, when you know that you're landlord country, all you have to do is you need to have a very good international, I mean, you need to have very good foreign policies.
00:23:43
Emmanuel Taban
That that is one important thing, especially how you deal with countries that are so much immediate or have access, immediate access to such a platform like the Indian Ocean.
00:23:44
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:23:56
Emmanuel Taban
So if you're landlord country like Uganda, So I think you should be very strategic in developing very good foreign policies, having a very good regional relations with countries like Tanzania. Countries like Kenya have a very good relationship. And you already have the already in ah in a pact, I mean, through the EAC.
00:24:15
Emmanuel Taban
So I mean, being a member of the East African community, you can initiate some kind of some relationship with with Kenya and and come to a common sign memorandum of understanding based on something. And you can access the Indian Ocean in a very peaceful and and good manner. That does not pose a threat.
00:24:34
Emmanuel Taban
to the territorial integrity of the other country.
00:24:34
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:24:37
Emmanuel Taban
So I feel um as a landlocked country, you don't have to pose threats to those countries that have immediate access to the ocean. But all you have to do is develop very up appealing foreign policies that can easily lure your friends, to those who i have access to the to the oceans, to actually be your friends.
00:24:55
Emmanuel Taban
and And from there, that is when you can easily have access to the ocean. And you can reap the benefits from it, just like the the the country that has immediate access. So it's all about
00:25:05
Patrick Abure
Um,
Africa's Trade Potential and Regional Cooperation
00:25:06
Emmanuel Taban
open good foreign relationship with foreign countries.
00:25:10
Emmanuel Taban
and from there, that's how you can easily ah get access to it. Not through easing threats now. Yeah.
00:25:18
Patrick Abure
i totally agree and now that you're talking about diplomacy international relations and trade and stuff like that it reminds me of one another time we talked about trade here i think you were also in that episode i can't remember which exact episode um do you think like african countries the reason like we have we don't have like good trade ties which kind of makes it even hard um to like for goods to be cheaper from one country to another. Like for instance, I'll give ah you an example. When we are traveling from one country to another here in Kenya, maybe I want to fly to Uganda. It's super expensive in comparison to people traveling from in Europe, from one country to to the other. And what can Africans do, especially in the context of maybe how can we improve trade to make it way better for Africans anyway?
00:26:09
Emmanuel Taban
I think in in in terms of improving trade, it it it simply um it it starts with realising your potential as a country.
00:26:20
Emmanuel Taban
What are you endowed with?
00:26:20
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:26:22
Emmanuel Taban
I mean, if you are good in in agriculture, you have very fertile soil, then you specialize in agriculture. Make sure you produce abundance that can feed your country, but also that you can export.
00:26:30
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:26:34
Emmanuel Taban
If you have abundance of resources, for instance, you have ah oil, then you have some other resources.
00:26:35
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:26:42
Emmanuel Taban
how How can you refine these resources to finish good and they can only be maybe taken to other countries? I think that is that is where we have to start with.
00:26:54
Emmanuel Taban
Discovering your potentials as a country, what are your countries endowed with, and harnessing all these these these resources, making good use of them and perfect them that can meet international standards and that's where you can export them.
00:27:09
Emmanuel Taban
And so that, you know, there are so many African countries. Africa is a very huge economy altogether combined, very huge economy.
00:27:15
Patrick Abure
Yeah. who
00:27:17
Emmanuel Taban
But most of the goods and services perhaps that are ah being consumed in Africa are not produced within Africa, they are either gotten from other foreign or European or these American countries.
00:27:31
Emmanuel Taban
So I think the reason is because we have not discovered our potentials, we have not harnessed them, we have not made good use of them.
00:27:32
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:27:39
Emmanuel Taban
But I think the first thing that we need to do to improve trade within Africa is to realise our potentials as individual countries, harness them and perfect them to meet international standards.
00:27:49
Emmanuel Taban
We will learn that we will only not export this to other African countries, but even to European and these Asian American countries. It starts all with the just finding out what we our potentials are as individual countries. Yeah.
00:28:06
Patrick Abure
I totally agree. Yeah, and be more intentional about now working together as a bloc.
00:28:11
Emmanuel Taban
Right. Right.
00:28:12
Patrick Abure
Yeah. I was looking up what Kenya had to say about Museveni's sentiments, and Msalem Davadi, the Foreign Affairs Minister, said, um Kenya ki is a responsible member of the international community, and it is in our interest to facilitate any landlocked country that wishes to use the port of Mombasa.
00:28:13
Emmanuel Taban
Mm-hmm.
00:28:32
Patrick Abure
Mdavadi also said, and in any case, what would be the value of the pot if it does not generate revenue? ah So in closing, what do do you think what Museveni said like holds any water or it's just hot air? Yeah.
00:28:47
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, i i i i'm up to now, I think I'm failing to understand the intention of that statement exactly.
Kenya and Tanzania's Cooperation Efforts
00:28:55
Emmanuel Taban
Like if it is meant to, if it really meant what he said, or it was diversionary statement,
00:28:55
Patrick Abure
yeah
00:29:01
Emmanuel Taban
or he made it out of a just like mistag, what I am failing to understand. Because Uganda always has access to the Mombasa port. That's where they got goods into their country. They import goods, export.
00:29:19
Emmanuel Taban
And i I'm failing to understand that up to now, why he issued that statement.
00:29:23
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:29:25
Emmanuel Taban
There are so many reasons that are actually coming up in my head right now. But yeah, go to me, I think he he might have, you know, Museveni is ah he' a guy who speaks out his mind freely at any time.
00:29:29
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:29:39
Emmanuel Taban
He can say anything he wants. So sometimes he doesn't necessarily mean what he said.
00:29:40
Patrick Abure
of
00:29:43
Emmanuel Taban
So yeah.
00:29:44
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:29:45
Emmanuel Taban
Until maybe he deploy armed forces in the Kenyan territory, we should not take him serious.
00:29:45
Patrick Abure
Yeah. i
00:29:52
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:29:54
Patrick Abure
And Kenyan they are going to defend it themselves.
00:29:57
Emmanuel Taban
I know, Kenyans do not even accept that.
00:29:58
Patrick Abure
those are They said he doesn't know how how powerful our army is. Yeah.
00:30:04
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah, I think I saw some Kenyans. Some Kenyans are like, man, when it comes now to play with our territory, I know we're saying Ruto one time, but if you try, and this time, we'll first unite with Ruto before and then chase you out after chasing you, then we'll come and chase Ruto.
00:30:11
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:30:25
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:30:26
Patrick Abure
Yeah, and honestly, i think keeping up with East African politics, ah it's it's quite something, honestly.
00:30:26
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:30:31
Emmanuel Taban
mean
00:30:33
Patrick Abure
I don't know. And and I don't know.
00:30:34
Emmanuel Taban
is
00:30:36
Patrick Abure
um I have also watched a lot of, maybe in closing, which is not related to this episode, but generally, what do you think about what happened in Tanzania?
Tanzania's Political Landscape
00:30:47
Emmanuel Taban
Oh, what happened in Tanzania? it's it's a very It's a very unfortunate thing, I think. um I mean, it's clearly... it's clearly seen by everyone that the election was sham election. It wasn't really done in a very free and fair manner.
00:31:04
Emmanuel Taban
And um I think it it speaks so much about the current administration.
00:31:04
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:31:09
Emmanuel Taban
And my my worry is that Samir Sulu, who within a very short time has actually erased or has actually given Tanzania a very, very bad name and this used to be a country that was respected by by so many people in fact tanzania is the only country in east africa before kenya that was highly respected because the country produced so many good people likes of julius nirere john pombe magff these are all great people who had the i mean who really meant so well for their country they upheld the principles of good governance they wanted
00:31:23
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:31:25
Patrick Abure
Uh-huh.
00:31:30
Patrick Abure
who
00:31:36
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:31:46
Emmanuel Taban
good things to happen not only for Tanzanians, but the entire African continent. So I think Samir Suluhu coming with her own style of leadership, it's it's so ugly. And and i I feel that it's it's it's going to give her a very bad name internationally. I mean, internationally she's not going to be a very good leader. And I feel it's going to be a hard time for her to actually make some international visits this time around because people are just going to look at her as the most...
00:32:16
Emmanuel Taban
ah ah female dictator that they have ever seen in the African country. I mean, going for an election and then you're locking all your opponents in prison, it's it's not something that is that is good at all.
00:32:29
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:32:30
Emmanuel Taban
It doesn't make, and there are so many people who got killed, I'm told. and Some of them are not, the actual number is actually not even released by the government.
00:32:38
Patrick Abure
It's unknown.
00:32:38
Emmanuel Taban
and Yeah, so, and the government is still not even backing down, trying to charge those ones who participated in the protest.
00:32:39
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:32:45
Emmanuel Taban
for treason, which is still very harsh. yeah
00:32:49
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:32:50
Emmanuel Taban
So what happened in Tanzania, I think it's it's shameful.
00:32:51
Patrick Abure
Wow.
00:32:52
Emmanuel Taban
And it's it's also a shaming to all those who actually took their time, especially the leaders, to congratulate her for the victory. I mean, it's that clearly tells us that whosoever went to attend her inauguration and those who are congratulated her, they're all buds of the same feders.
00:33:03
Patrick Abure
Mm-hmm.
00:33:11
Emmanuel Taban
So probably there are people who believe in the all the the the the the style of leadership that she applied during this election. Yeah.
00:33:21
Patrick Abure
oh Honestly, yeah, our hearts go out to all Tanzanians. It's such a sickening and, you know, such a saddening thing too, what happened in their country.
00:33:32
Patrick Abure
And we hope in due time they'll get their justice.
00:33:33
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:33:35
Patrick Abure
the peace will prevail and things will be better because the other day i was talking to someone from there and whatever she told me, it's just, it's it's really sad honestly being there right now.
00:33:46
Patrick Abure
And there's people who are also even burying like pieces of cloth because they cannot find their loved ones. So it's a, yeah, it's sad.
00:33:55
Emmanuel Taban
That's a lot.
00:33:56
Patrick Abure
Yeah.
00:33:57
Emmanuel Taban
Really sad. Yeah.
00:33:58
Patrick Abure
Yeah. Thank you, Immanuel, for sharing your insights about Museveni.
00:34:00
Emmanuel Taban
and
00:34:03
Patrick Abure
It's been ah quite ah ah great discussion, full of humor.
00:34:03
Emmanuel Taban
Thank you. All right.
00:34:07
Patrick Abure
And for those people who don't know, again, Immanuel has a podcast called The Concerned Podcast.
00:34:08
Emmanuel Taban
Yeah.
00:34:12
Patrick Abure
Actually, the hoodie you're wearing has the logo for the podcast.
00:34:16
Emmanuel Taban
No, no, no, no. Yeah, no.
00:34:18
Patrick Abure
Oh, I thought so. Yeah, so you can check out you can check out his podcast on all platforms. Subscribe and share um and follow him. And also, thank you for listening to our podcast episode and for engaging with us. We appreciate your support. Check us out on YouTube, on all other social media platforms, and any of your favorite podcasting platform. Until the next time, I've been your hosts.
00:34:45
Patrick Abure
Helen Kimario joined by Emanuel Taban. Bye.
00:34:49
Emmanuel Taban
Bye.
00:34:51
Patrick Abure
yeah ah