Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
237 Plays3 years ago
Our regular DC animation guest, Stacy Dooks, is back to discuss one of Perry's favorite of the DC animated films—Batman: The Dark Knight Returns! We discuss the legacy of the comic, the wrong lessons people have taken from it, and how the film improves on a lot of aspects of the comic.
Listen to Stacy on The Fanboy Power Hour podcast.
Help support the show by renting or buying this film from Amazon.
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
Patrons get to listen to episodes before everyone else and they also get access to my exclusive companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. If you want to join in, please consider supporting us through Patreon!
--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/superherocinephiles/messageRecommended
Transcript
Retirement Conflicts and Tensions
00:00:26
Speaker
You cost me hours of work last night. Then I'll get right to it. You have to go back into retirement. You're upsetting too many people. Mm-hmm. Why do you always have to be like this? You played right into their hands last time. When the parents' groups and the subcommittees came after us, you're the one they pointed to. You act like a criminal. We are criminals, Clark. We always have been. You're still one too. The only difference is you have a boss.
00:00:55
Speaker
and you answer to no one. You know, we almost had this talk 10 years ago when you wouldn't go along with the deal we made. Everyone else agreed. Diana went back to her people. Hal left the planet. And Oliver, did he agree? That's not how I wanted that to go. He was all torn up about it too. He made it necessary. Like? Like I'm about to. Do you even remember why you retired? I remember.
00:01:25
Speaker
Look, either shut it down or one of these days someone with authority is gonna tell me to come stop you. And when that happens... When that happens, may the best man win. I have to go. We'll finish this later. No hurry.
Introduction to DC Animation
00:01:48
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And we're talking DC animation today, so I figured I'd bring back the guy who I've had on to talk about a bunch of DC animated stuff, and that's Stacey Duke. Stacey, how you doing today? I'm doing well. Hey, everybody. Get yourself a beverage, get situated, because we are going to talk about this movie. And if you haven't seen it,
00:02:13
Speaker
Do yourself an absolute favor, find it on streaming somewhere, watch it. You can pause this podcast and come back.
00:02:20
Speaker
And believe me, Will, we're going to talk your ear off about it. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's a big movie. It's, you know, two and a half hours long is the uncut when they got the two compilations added together, which is what I picked up because I didn't want to go for the... When they released it in the two individual segments, part one and part two, I'm just like, oh, no, no, no. I know what they're doing here. I'm going to wait. So I waited and I'm so glad I did and got it all in one sitting.
00:02:45
Speaker
Absolutely. It is a it's well worth the wait. I mean, part one and part two, they, they can function sort of as separate entities, but I think they work best when they're together with the.
00:02:56
Speaker
kind of like the whole theme of the Dark Knight Rises, and then the Dark Knight Falls.
The Dark Knight Returns and Frank Miller
00:03:00
Speaker
So I don't think we actually said what it is, but we're talking about the Dark Knight Returns, the animated film from fairly recently. It was just like a few years ago, if I'm not mistaken, right? Yeah, if I remember correctly, it was back in... Yeah, so it was 2012 is when part one came out, and 2013 was part two.
00:03:23
Speaker
10 years old. Wow. Yeah. So before we jump too much into the movie, what's your history with Dark Knight Returns, the comic? Oh, it is a tale, my friend, of youthful enthusiasm followed by a growing leeriness and resigned weariness with the property. It's not that I hate it. It's still a pretty good story aside from some
00:03:53
Speaker
bits that have not aged particularly well, but on the whole, it's at the time when it was coming out in 86, it was wild. I remember trying to get the series in the prestige format like slim paperbacks. And I remember going to a comic book store and getting part two, The Dark Knight Triumphant and part four, The Dark Knight Falls. And I still have those books to this day.
00:04:20
Speaker
And trying to bring them to my dad who was like, who used to always buy the comics off the newsstand and everything he's like 20 bucks for a comic. And I was like, I don't know what to tell you. But he was he was good enough to buy them to buy them for me despite his reservations my parents were always great about
00:04:42
Speaker
letting me read whatever I wanted to read. And at the time, you know, it did have that tag suggested for mature readers. And then you read some of that stuff and it's like, wow, this ain't the Dick Sprang Batman. No, no. Danny O'Neill and Neil Adams. This is some darker stuff, yeah. Yeah. So you read it actually when it was coming out at the time, then? A little bit, yeah. I had those first two and then eventually when they did the train,
00:05:07
Speaker
I was able to grab the trade paperback with the classic, you know, him and the pose and the lightning and the Alan Moore introduction, which was pretty big back then. Cause Alan Moore had just done watchmen and this was the whole thing with that. And I remember reading it over like the course of like a feverish Friday night, just like devouring the story and really quite enjoying it and engaging with it as a kind of response to the,
00:05:34
Speaker
So perhaps the more goofier aspects of Batman that had been in previous stuff, you know, you're so great. And of course the whole, like Frank Miller's made no secret that his version was a response to the Adam Westing of media. He wanted to give Batman his teeth back. And you watch as he gradually deconstructs and reconstructs the character. Because when he shows up in part one, he's wearing a classic blue and gray with the big yellow oval in the back.
00:06:01
Speaker
And then that uniform gets destroyed over the course of his adventure with Harvey Dent. And then he puts on the dark bat symbol and the costume gets progressively darker and he becomes more and more.
00:06:11
Speaker
less and less a superhero and more like this mythic figure carved from granite.
Evil Superman Concept in Media
00:06:16
Speaker
So it's pretty interesting. And I remember reading it and being like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Superman's the bad guy? And I was like, this was the first time that it ever happened, kids. And thankfully, they've been very sparing about using the concept of an evil Superman.
00:06:33
Speaker
You barely see any of that. You barely see any of that in the media these days. I mean, it's so wild, but here's the thing. Well, Miller manages to keep the characters relatively true to who they are. The friction that comes between them is that Clark still believes in the system and Batman has no time for it anymore. Like he's just been taking it in the teeth since he retired. And we don't really know the circumstances of his retirement. That's one of the things that they keep
00:07:02
Speaker
They play pretty loose and goosey. It probably has something to do with the empty Robin uniform and, you know, Jason Todd and how Jason is not mentioned anyway beyond in passing. And you just see him just get so fed up with the system and till the point where he reaches tilt and finally he gives it.
00:07:25
Speaker
because the presence of Batman bursts out of him like a rusted cage. It's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, I
Pre- and Post-Crisis Comics
00:07:32
Speaker
first read it. So, you know, I was too young to read it at the time. I didn't get into reading comics until the 90s or so. And but I was reading Wizard back in the time. And, you know, Wizard would talk about nonstop about how like the two greatest comic books ever were Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. And so so eventually when I had the opportunity, I picked it up and read the graphic novel and
00:07:56
Speaker
It wasn't as revelatory for me as it was for other people because I had grown up with like the Batman, the animated series and Tim Burton's Batman. So it wasn't, it was all that stuff that was influenced by Dark Knight Returns. So it wasn't that surprising to me, but it was still really good. I'm like, okay, yeah, this is a really good story. One of the interesting things I remembered though, as you were talking about Jason Todd is my,
00:08:22
Speaker
assumption of it for years was that this came out after Death in the Family, and that's why Jason Todd was dead in it, but actually it was the opposite. This came out before Death in the Family, which when I found out about that, it blew my mind. Yeah, because at that point, this was still, I think, in and around the pre-post-crisis era, like Batman year one and Batman the Dark Knight Returns kind of came out during that no man's land between when Jason Todd was this young orphan who
00:08:52
Speaker
You know, he was an acrobat as well. He had red hair. He got adopted by Bruce Wayne. He dyed his hair black. He became a second Robin to the post crisis version where he boosts the tires off the Batmobile and would eventually, you know, dye the hands of the Joker kind of like the Robin gone wrong. Right. So yeah, it's really interesting. And actually speaking of that too, this came out before year one, correct?
00:09:19
Speaker
I think so, yeah. Batman the Dark Knight Returns showed the ending. And then because it was such a huge hit, Miller pretty much had carte blanche. So he decided to go back to Batman's beginnings and do Batman year one with- That was a Mezzie Kelly, yeah. Mezzie Kelly, yeah, yeah. Mezzie Kelly, I'm not sure how I'm, if I'm pronouncing it right. Yeah, please, please forgive me. But yeah, it was, it's, the interesting thing about Dark Knight Returns is it's just,
00:09:49
Speaker
It's one of those books that, and I was really thinking about this when I'm rewatching the movie last night, is it's almost been too influential on Batman. And it's like,
Frank Miller's Batman Influence
00:10:02
Speaker
And as I get older, I find myself really gravitating more towards the Denny O'Neill, the Bruce Tim Pauldini, the Grant Morrison Batman, the one who, yeah, he's dark, but he's not sadistically fascistic.
00:10:20
Speaker
No, no, that's where he's more like this globetrotting adventurer who is the best at everything because he just is. Like one of my favorite pump your fist moments from the Graham Morrison run is that sweet, sweet learning where the shots over Batman's grave and it's like digging your way up from six feet under is very difficult.
00:10:40
Speaker
And then the next shot is Batman clawing out of his own grave, but not impossible. And I was just like, fuck yes, Batman. I got to reread that run again. That shit. Oh, God, it's so good. Batman Inc., that whole era.
00:10:54
Speaker
That's, that is, that is my jam, my jelly, you know, put it on my breakfast toast. That and the all-star Batman, not all-star Batman. Not all-star Batman, Robin. Please forgive me. My brain farted for a second. The Batman and Robin featuring Dick Grayson. Oh, yes. Yeah. And Damien Wayne. That team was great. Happy Batman, Grumpy Robin. Amazing. You know, in fact,
00:11:16
Speaker
the episode I recorded just before this one, we were talking about Teen Titans, the Judas contract, and talking about the Dick and Damien relationship. And I sit in there and just like, and you know what, this really makes me want to see a Batman and Robin animated film, which we will receive like the Dick Grayson, Batman and Damien Wayne Robin partnership. Yeah, they were really great. And that series also introduced the most logical thing in the world, which is a flying Batmobile because
00:11:44
Speaker
you know, Gotham's based on New York and New York traffic. I don't know how that would be able to function with that, but it's just one of those concepts that we accept, kind of like the bat signal. Like you would think that Jim Gordon would have like a burner phone that he just texts Batman from, like, need to meet, let's meet on the roof, but that image is so striking of the bat symbol against the clouds that we all just kind of agree to roll with it and not really pull on those threads too much, but- Well, there's a great reference to that in the movie and in the book when he goes up to the roof of Gotham
00:12:14
Speaker
uh pd and he's about to and he tells the tells the officers like all right start on fire up the bad signal he's like isn't there a better way to contact him he's like oh yeah at least it doesn't but
00:12:23
Speaker
This way they all know. Yeah, yeah. And I love that idea because we even saw that reference in a way in Dark Knight Return, The Dark Knight as well, the movie. The Dark Knight, yeah, yeah. Because obviously he's got a way to contact Gordon because he's got Alfred texting him all this stuff. But he's still using the bat signal and it's just kind of like, he never shows up when we put it up, but we just want to have it on so people know he's out there.
00:12:49
Speaker
It's also referenced in the Batman where it's just like the signal reminds you of Batman's presence and then they look in every shadow and they're not sure if he's in there or not. And some of them are just like, nope, I'm not feeling it. I'm not going to do the shitty thing I was about to do. I don't want to run into that guy.
00:13:09
Speaker
which is why it, and that's a, that's more of a modern interpretation of it, but it makes a whole lot of sense because you, I remember watching a Batman 66 movie when they have the bat signal and it's like, but you've got the bat phone too. Why are you doing the signal? And they never, they never mentioned it. You know what? You just got to respect a bit. Like you respect the fact that even the Adam West version recognizes that psychological warfare is useful in crime fighting. And that's, that's part of the shtick, the signal, the outfit,
00:13:38
Speaker
Like it's all there for intimidation. I absolutely love it. See, now when this movie came out, like I said, I watched it all in one hit and I'd reread, I hadn't read Dark Knight Returns in a while when I actually watched this movie. And I think it was maybe about like two or three years ago that I finally, cause I had sold my collection when my parents downsized.
00:14:07
Speaker
And cause I wasn't going to ship all that, all that stuff. Yeah, that's fair. So then I started just getting stuff through, uh, getting stuff digitally after that. And I picked up dark night returns on one of the many Comixology sales and rewrite it like, you know, maybe like two or three years ago and rereading it again. And then watching the movie, I gotta say, you know what? I think I kind of prefer the movie in a
Animated Movie vs. Comic Preference
00:14:30
Speaker
lot of ways. The movie streamlines a lot of stuff. And then also.
00:14:35
Speaker
files the rough edges of some stuff that hasn't aged particularly well. Yeah. I mean, like one thing that jumps out to me right away is the narration. Like, God, Frank Miller's narration. And it really hit me when I rewatched Sin City after like 10 years. I'm like, oh my God, this is so bad. Well, it works within the medium. That's the thing. It's kind of like how in the Superman Batman comics that Jeff Loeb and Ed McGinnis did,
00:15:01
Speaker
that internal monologue would have been interminable in a film, but it works well in the comic because it gives you a snapshot into their heads. I mean, I still love my favorite piece of the monologue, of monologuing from, well, this would be a good death. That's pretty cool. But also the bit where it isn't easy to drag 300 pounds of sociopath up to the top of a skyscraper
00:15:26
Speaker
but the scream alone is worth it. And you're just like, look, don't get me wrong. Frank Miller's Batman is a colossal dick, but I will give him this. He is a showman. He will find the way to break his opponent and then apply that shit like a scalpel. So I gotta give him that. He's definitely more jackbooted than any other versions that I've run into, but you gotta give him credit.
00:15:56
Speaker
that whole bit where he rescues the kid. And in the comics, it's vague as to whether or not he shot the guy, but you hear the gun go off. And he's just like, I'll do it, man. He's like, I believe you. And the guy's just dead. And the whole bit about, I know my rights. And he's like, sure, you got rights, lots of rights. Sometimes I count them at late at night just to make myself angrier and angrier.
00:16:20
Speaker
Like, he is intensely creepy and it works in the film. Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about that scene with the gunshot because I think that's a very misinterpreted scene and that's one of the things that this movie makes it very clear what's happening there, which I'm so glad they did. But before we get to that, I want to talk about the casting of this because
Peter Weller's Batman Performance
00:16:44
Speaker
Yeah, this thing's got a pedigree, I have to say. I mean, Peter Weller as Batman, like, you know, I know everyone's like, Kevin Conroy is the greatest, they should never be any other, but honestly, I think Peter Weller's kind of perfect for this version of Batman. He's pretty good, but he wasn't my first choice because if you'll recall during Batman, the animated series,
00:17:11
Speaker
There is an episode called Legends of the Dark Knight. And they do a brief sequence set in the continuity of Dark Knight Returns and Batman's voiced by Michael Ironside. And that shit was dope. Where he like does the operating table bit, like chills. And don't get me wrong. Well, there's very game with the material. But sometimes I just think about what we could have had. And I'm like, damn.
00:17:39
Speaker
There was one word. There is one part when Peter Weller, I think, kind of falls short. And that's when he gives that speech on the horseback. Absolutely. It feels like I'm just like your voice sounds like it's a little bit high pitched in this moment. It doesn't seem it's not. Yeah, it's not quite where you want it to be. And you know, Ironside would have fucking crushed it. Oh, my God. Let's ride. I would have been like, yes, Batman. Let's do this shit.
00:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, I would have been right there with the Sons of Batman, which we'll talk about in a bit because, oh god, the gangs. The gangs in the Dark Knight Returns are just, oh my god. Another thing about this that I think is really interesting is just the
00:18:25
Speaker
It makes me wonder what happened to Frank Miller because he used to be so on point with the social commentary. Yeah, he was pretty good. He was pretty good in ways of like, you know, he had the whole thing where he anticipated the era of Fox News and Talking Heads because all the Talking Heads and the Dark Knight returns from Lana Lang to Jimmy Olsen to
00:18:50
Speaker
the psychiatrist, the Dr. Phil, who thinks he's rehabilitated the Joker. Oh, bless. And he thinks he rehabilitated Harvey Dent as well. Oh, yes, absolutely. You know, he's the quack psychiatrist that, you know, is ostensibly
00:19:08
Speaker
Ostensibly kind of Miller stand in for bleeding heart liberals. He's got a few of that. Like he's also got a little, there's a vein. Yeah. There's also there doing the interviews with the man on the street and they've used that one like, you know, upper-class white guy who says like, Oh, I think it's a terrible violation of their rights. He's like, Oh no, I would never live in the city. Whereas the black guy who lives in the city, he's like, Hey, I hope he comes after my landlord next.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. In the original comics, though, it was like, I think he's great. I hope he goes after the homos next. And yeah, that's kind of Yeah, yeah. I mean, but, but yeah, it's an incredible thing. I wonder how much of that was
00:19:50
Speaker
intentional because he seemed intentional. Yeah. Cause he seemed to be taking both sides to task a lot. Yes. He had a bit more like open season on both, like the hard line, the hard line, right.
00:20:04
Speaker
the hard line left, he definitely had a lot of vitriol to dispense against Ronald Reagan. But then again, the line for that forms to the left, but you know, Frank- But I don't even think he was so much against the hard line left because when you look at the hard line, like that's, Oliver Queen is definitely representative of that. Oh man, like, yes, yes, I agree. Like later Frank would probably broom Oliver Queen off screen pretty quick or just make him into a raving lunatic. In this, Oliver Queen is just like this,
00:20:34
Speaker
this kind of like mellowed out hippie who's just like really just tired of the man tired of the bullshit went underground became an outlaw and something happened where like something happened with Superman because he's like I want a piece of him because it still hurts when it's cold and he looks at his the stump where his arm used to be so you wonder what happened there so
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah. And so, and like, honestly, I think Ollie's like the most well-adjusted of anybody in the fucking series. Yeah. He's the most, he's the most chill motherfucker. He knows exactly the whole game's rigged. Don't bother trying to play. Just fucking do what you need to do and get out. And he gradually, he kind of teaches Batman how to do that because Batman ultimately goes underground with his followers. And it's clear he's going to start teaching them
00:21:22
Speaker
how to be Batman, Bat women, Bat people and spread out into the world. So that's one of those things, but we're kind of skipping ahead a little bit. We'll get to that. But I think that's even like, even though it's, you know, Batman's ostensibly the hero here, I think that in some ways, if you look at what Miller was doing, I don't think he was necessarily saying that this is a good version of Batman. Like, I don't know, it's weird. It's weird. It's a strange dichotomy where
00:21:51
Speaker
You know, we all accept at a certain level that superheroes and violence are kind of tied together.
00:22:01
Speaker
And it's a cartoony violence, right? And it's something that on its own back in the day, back in the Silver Age, you punched a giant starfish in the face and everybody went home happy and it was a great day for everybody. And it was as we mentioned earlier, like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns became the two staples of DC. And unfortunately, I think to a lesser, a greater or lesser extent, those two amazing books
00:22:28
Speaker
just steamrolled DC Comics. They all wanted to be realistic. They all wanted to show consequences and it's a tough road to hoe because you have to accept the juxtaposition that Superman is one of the kindest, most sweetest people on the planet. He's also got a whole lot of power and that kind of power could be very dangerous. I think it's one of the reasons we see Superman as a more threatening figure now because we're less willing to trust
00:22:57
Speaker
people in power who ostensibly have our best interests at heart. It can be very difficult. So it's a tough road to hoe. And I think Miller was one of the first people in his way to be like,
Tactical Batman in The Dark Knight Returns
00:23:10
Speaker
If these characters like Batman are the inheritors of characters like the shadow and stuff like that, they are intrinsically at once very damaged people and people who operate outside the law because they got no time for it. And that can be a good thing in some ways and a bad thing in others. And he illustrates both sides of the equation because Batman
00:23:33
Speaker
is fucking brutal. When he's like, he was the first to introduce the idea that the battering wasn't just to knock guns out of people's hands. They were shrieking. Yeah, they were sure they were meant to go into flesh. And you see that in the book, when he like, launches them and they embedded that one mutant guys arm, and you're like, Oh, I get it now. Oh, boy. And yeah, and he's just talking about how he'll clinically like,
00:23:58
Speaker
break this bone, break that bone, knock that thing back. And he's barely, and he shows the consequences of violence on himself because his body is barely holding together. Even Alfred, who's like older than time at this point is like, if you want to commit suicide, there are less ways. I have an old herbal remedy. Like even at 90, Alfred is just like, just dishing it. Oh, love him.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah. That's the interesting thing is like, and I think this is a larger conversation about- No, but I think it's a good one to have because I think like those two books I think are like, it's funny because they're both such classics of the medium. They're like the most off-sighted greatest comic books ever type of thing, but they're like, they're both the most misunderstood comics of all time.
00:24:49
Speaker
A lot of the law of the wrong lessons were taken from those. And Alan Moore even had to kind of come to Jesus later. That's why he started doing books like Supreme, The Story of the Year, and the ABC books that he did, like Tom Strong, Vermivia, Grayshire, because he wanted to try and bring some of that whimsy back because he realized that, you know, his deconstructionist antics had kind of like taken the poor genre and
00:25:14
Speaker
Left it a little mutilated there. So, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Those books are so amazing and so great and hold up a lens to the, to the medium. But unfortunately, everybody saw that and was like, we need one of those. We need a watchman. We need a Dark Eye Returns. And don't get me wrong. We've gotten some good graphic novels that have been in that vein, like Kingdom Come and stuff of that nature. But.
00:25:39
Speaker
Even Kingdom Come, I think, was more a hopeful story. It was more reaction than anything else. Yeah, it was a dialogue. It was the medium having a dialogue. Right, yeah. But also, like, it's funny because I had read... I read the Spawn Compendium, Volume 1, recently. Yeah, so it's like the first... My brother loves Spawn. You should have him on.
00:26:01
Speaker
It's funny. I love Spawn when I was in high school. Absolutely. And I reread it and when I'm reading the compendium, I'm like, it's not bad. It's fun. There's some interesting stuff in there. It's not good either. I mean, look, not everything has to be Shakespeare. Sometimes you go to something for a steak. Sometimes you just want cheeseburger. That's right. Exactly. Yeah.
00:26:23
Speaker
And but I'm reading it and it's it's funny how, especially the early issues, how much Todd McFarline wants to be Frank Miller in the Dark Knight Returns. Yeah. Yeah. He really he really had that that kind of bromance so much so that when, you know, when he had an opportunity to team up with DC, of course, he pulled Frank and they did Batman Spawn, which, you know, as Miller is maintained, is in line with the Dark Knight Returns version of Batman, which scratch your head on that one.
00:26:50
Speaker
But thankfully Miller never made any sequels to the Dark Eye Returns and we can all thankfully not have to deal with any of that. Don't go looking kids, don't go looking. I got some bad news for you. Oh, I will say the master race was not bad.
00:27:13
Speaker
I'm not sure if you read that. It was, no, no. And I think it was a big part of it was it had, you had Adam, I think it was Adam. It was either Adam Cooper or Andy Cooper doing the art. Yeah. And Brian Azarello doing the scripting. Kind of acting as a filter. Yeah. And I think it worked a lot better when you had Brian Azarello acting as a filter for Frank. I'm not saying no. It's just that.
00:27:37
Speaker
Frank and I have become very different people since the era of The Dark Knight Returns. And we want different things. It's like how everybody talks up Tom King and Tom King, amazing creator. And I don't dispute that the man is talented, but he and I want very different things. He wants to tell the story of Adam Strange as a war criminal. And I'm like, no, please. I would like him to just fight space pirates and have amazing Buck Rogers-esque adventures drawn by Doc Shainer.
00:28:04
Speaker
We want different things. It's not necessarily right. Not necessarily wrong. He goes his way. I go mine. So right now you got to you got to give a little together. And then we had there was also the the the last crusade, which was like the the rock, the prequel almost to Dark Knight Returns, which was again, it was OK. It wasn't like nothing was like it wasn't as offensively bad as like Dark Knight's rights again or all star Batman and Robin.
00:28:34
Speaker
It's kind of like before Watchmen with the Minutemen thing done by Darwin Cook, where you're like, okay, I know that in no way, shape, or form Alan Moore or Dave Gibbons might approve of this, but okay, I'll roll with it.
00:28:47
Speaker
Or like even like the Watchmen TV series where you know Alan Moore is never going to watch that. But it's a good addition to it. But it is an interesting, it is playing with the toys and finding new ways to do things. And if he were ever of a mind to watch it, I think he might prove on it. Yeah, I don't think he'd ever tell anybody. No, no, he would go to the great beyond telling anybody about that. But also going back to Dark Knight Returns and some of the violence and
00:29:17
Speaker
One of the things that really, it's so weird reading this now or rewatching this now after like all the BLM stuff and all the police reckoning and all that. And just like, and you see a lot of those threads early on in this, which, you know, makes me feel like, makes me wonder like how much is this Frank Miller saying this is a good thing? How much is it Frank Miller saying? Like you don't really want Batman like this because I feel like even he doesn't know because I'm watching that scene when he's,
00:29:46
Speaker
that first night when he comes back and he's got the guy down, he's like breaking his legs and you've got the cop standing over him and just kind of like, he's like, hey, he's like laughing it up with him and everything.
Batman: Authority vs. Rebellion
00:29:58
Speaker
And I'm just like, this is really fucking, he's breaking that guy's legs right there. Yeah. Or the young idealistic cop is like, step away from him. And the older cop is like, you don't want it. You're in for a show tonight, son. And like a whole bit of like these men are mine.
00:30:13
Speaker
like don't fuck with me, I'm about to fuck with them. And there's this interesting commentary within, you could make an argument that there's an authoritarian vibe to Batman and an anti-authoritarian vibe to Batman. And it all depends on how you choose to interpret his symbol. And there's the whole bit when he defeats the mutant leader, he breaks the guy, absolutely wrecks him. And then a bunch of his followers are like,
00:30:41
Speaker
that's the guy. And they start painting their faces with bat symbols and start becoming the sons of Batman. And start doing vigilante justice with shotguns. And yeah, and that's where you're like, the power of the symbol. And there's that whole bit where Superman, you know, he's become an agent of the government. Like he's basically the
00:31:05
Speaker
DC Earth, Ronald Reagan equivalent of using a nuke. Like this is our response. And when he goes to Corto Maltese and he like, there's that powerful image of him lifting the tank over his head. And he's like, you know, and he talks about how Diana went back to her people how long to the stars. We can't remind them that God's walk among them. And there's that bit where he says, and then you laughed Bruce, that scary laugh of yours. And you said, of course we're criminals. We've always been criminals. And it's just like, yeah, you're right. You're not wrong.
00:31:33
Speaker
Like his figure and his image can be interpreted in so many different ways. And sometimes I think even the character of Batman himself doesn't realize what kind of influence he's having. Like he just wants to go out, grab crime by the throat and choke it. But at the same time, there's people who are like, well, due process of law. I mean, there's a whole dialogue you could have about the Gotham Police Department under Jim Gordon. And then when the young woman
00:32:01
Speaker
comes on, yindle. That whole thing where it's like, you know, the Gotham police force under Gordon has been very pro Batman, even when he was retired, when he comes back, he's got that whole thing one last time old friend. And then once yindle takes over, she's just like, Nope, we're gonna arrest this motherfucker. He is a dangerous vigilante, and he needs to be brought to justice. And you're like, and then he and yindle have that whole conversation about Pearl Harbor.
00:32:26
Speaker
which is pretty interesting. So it's wild. I think that this work more than anything else was Miller fishing around for like, what is Batman and what does Batman ultimately mean? And I think his conclusion is that Batman is ultimately, you know, this figure who wanted to war on crime and he's still kicking in that can
00:32:52
Speaker
but he's like, this would be a good death. This will be a good life. And what does it ultimately mean? He kind of leaves it to the reader at the end. Like, is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? I leave it to you, so.
00:33:05
Speaker
And then, you know. Yeah, that's the thing. Like I said, I don't even know if Frank really knew what he was doing with this, if he really had a good handle on it, because I know if you read his later stuff, I mean, he's got this very, his post 9-11 stuff, he's got this very reactionary right wing vibe to it. But you go back and you read this and I'm just like, his politics are kind of all over the place in this.
00:33:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's almost as if he's having an internal dialogue with himself about where he wants to land because, and the two polarities of it are Superman and Batman, like Superman is very much
Batman and Superman Ideological Clash
00:33:43
Speaker
about. Look, the system isn't perfect. I acknowledge the system isn't perfect, but it's the best system that's working right now. And I have to do what I can to support it from behind the scenes. I'll work within the system and hopefully maybe try to.
00:33:57
Speaker
play to the better angels of the system's nature. And Batman's just like, fuck the system. The system doesn't work and we should probably burn it to the fucking ground. I'd actually got something of counter that because I don't think it's that Batman wants to burn the system to the ground because he works within the system a lot too with the police. Too a bit. Yeah. I think it's more that he thinks that the system doesn't go far enough.
00:34:19
Speaker
It seems to be, but like, but then, and I think Ollie is the third point on that triangle. Cause then you got Ollie is very much the fuck the system burn it all down. But yeah. And I think that you see that argument kind of play out where Batman is just like the system, I will allow the system to operate so far. And if the system drops the ball, I will be there to pick it up and spike it.
00:34:43
Speaker
at the end goal line. He's very much about that. And I think that you watch that progression as he builds himself up, as he takes down the mutant gang, as he takes on Kerry Kelly, he's very much trying to, it's essentially how Batman got his groove back. He's trying to get back in the game after so long and he wants to
00:35:13
Speaker
I don't necessarily know if he's pointing himself at the mutant leader. Well, if there's one point where it's very clear he might be pointing himself at the mutant leader as a suicide mission, but when he recovers and bounces back, that's when he's like, yeah, I'm back. We're going to do this. I'm going to retake Gotham and establish that this is my turf in my city. If you try to fuck around, you will find out.
00:35:43
Speaker
So I think he's very much that third point. And I think also too, I'm looking at this and I feel like it's, this story is basically Batman's midlife crisis. Oh yes, without a doubt. Cause this is where Batman turns 50. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he and Gordon have that celebratory, you know, drink together. And it's just like, remember when you used to just have champagne and you would just have, you would just have like ginger ale instead.
00:36:10
Speaker
and you were like playing that whole millionaire playboy act. And it's just like, and you start to see him looking around and like, he's been throwing himself into other things because there's the race car bit where he's like in a helmet that looks a lot like his Batman fucking helmet. Which is like, he might be at the point where he's like, yeah, if people figure it out, they figure it out. I don't really give a shit anymore. Cause he's like, you know, he's not necessarily suicidal, but he's not,
00:36:36
Speaker
too bummed out about being in a situation where he might die in a ball of flame. Well, I think that when you said that he's kind of pointing himself at the mutiny or as like a suicide mission, I think there's a lot of truth to that. And I never really thought too much about that until you said that, but that kind of clicked it together because it in like he says in the end, you know, this narration is not in the in the movie, but in the in the comic when he says like, this would be a good death, but not good enough. But and and then he and then he bails out. And I feel like that's the same thing.
00:37:06
Speaker
I think part of him does want to die, at least in that first half of the story. Exactly. He has had this adversarial relationship with the figure of the Batman in his psyche. He has kept it locked down and tapped down for years, to the point that when he finally snaps during the thunderstorm, he hears the voice in his head like, you've been trying to keep me locked up. You are a frail old man.
00:37:33
Speaker
And you have to fulfill your commitments to me. Cause I've been waiting, pacing like a tiger in the cage and you're going to let me out. And there's that whole bit in the Batmobile, which is like a freaking tank. And I always loved the bit in the monologue where it was like.
00:37:49
Speaker
The Batmobile, that was you, Dick. That was the name a kid would give it. And so, yeah. And that was always just fun. And when he's looking at the mutant leader, like he's huge. He's like nobody we ever fought before. And Alfred is in his ear like, sir, he will kill you. Like, he's just like, he will destroy you. And he turns off the mic and goes out to fight it. Like, it's a great splash battle, but it's wrong because
00:38:18
Speaker
He shouldn't be doing this. He's punching outside his weight class right now. He's deliberately trying to fight the mutant leader on his terms. And that's the mistake. And it takes Robin showing up, Carrie Kelly, to pull him back from the edge. And that's where Carrie enters the story. And her contribution cannot be understated. Like she's the one who kind of puts him back on the path.
00:38:42
Speaker
And he realizes, oh shit, I was kind of going off on a thing there. Cause when he's like, my name's Bruce. Yeah. And when, you know, and one of the best moments in all of comics, in my opinion is when she's like, he's like, what's your name? And she's like, Carrie, Carrie Kelly. And then she pauses and goes, Robin.
00:38:59
Speaker
And I'm just like, fuck, yeah, I can't fuck. Yeah, you are. But yeah, I like that aspect. And I think I feel like this introduced something because I remember Frank Miller talking in an interview or something about Robin. And when he was first sitting down to like start planning the stories like, no, Robin, Robin's bullshit and all that. And then I think it was I think it was John Byrne who actually kind of changed his mind about this and kind of showed him a drawing with like Batman, like really dark
00:39:25
Speaker
and then like having Robin has like this splash of color and showing that that contrast and then it and then I think Miller kind of came to this realization that oh Robin is supposed to be this kind of like moderating influence on Batman so that he doesn't go too deep into that and I think you're right I think after after he gets you know annihilated by the the mutant leader and then he
00:39:48
Speaker
he meets Carrie and then he tells her, my name's Bruce. And I think that is kind of this moment where, and I think you're right, she does become kind of this moderating influence a little bit where he's less about, let me just punch all my problems away. Let's try and think strategically because now I got a kid to worry about too, who's involved in this.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, she's the future. And he recognizes that, that he has a purpose now because he's going to teach her. Yeah. And there's that whole bit in the cave where he recovers, he has a spirit vision where he communes with the bad creature and they kind of make their peace with each other. And he comes back out of the cave and she gives him a big old hug. And Alfred's just like, look, I don't want to bring it up, but have you forgotten about Jason? Yeah. And she has that moment where she's looking at the Robin costume in the glass case.
00:40:39
Speaker
And he's just like, Jason was a good soldier. He honored me, but the war goes on. And it's just like at once that is, that is as close as Bruce, this version of Bruce will get to acknowledging the loss and then embracing that there's someone new and their dynamic is great. Where there's the whole bit of like, if you leave this cockpit, you are fired.
00:41:00
Speaker
And she comes up with an ingenious way of like, she reworks the control panels and gets the boosters to respond to the cold word peel. And Batman, and she's just like, am I fired? And he's like, you're not fired. And she's like smiling, like she's kind of the one I'm over. It's a great dynamic between the two. And it's important to show that for all his fascist leanings, there is a trace of a human being in there somewhere. Like, yeah.
00:41:27
Speaker
buried under a lot of cynicism and a lot of need to distribute violence, but he still has a heart underneath all that. Well, I think that's also shown, and this is what annoys me too a lot about the interpretations of this over the years, especially down to Zack Snyder.
00:41:46
Speaker
and the Snyder cult and all that, and like this idea of like a Batman who kills. I'm just like, the fucking book is not about that. The movie is not about that. It's not about like he, even in this, even as extreme as Batman gets, he still has that line, he will not cross.
00:42:06
Speaker
And I think, and I do think Miller is partly responsible for this because of that confusing scene with the mutant gang and the kidnapped kid, because yeah, you read that book that you look at that panel, it's fucking confusing. It's really fucking confusing. You have to look closely to see that, oh, there's a bullet hole next to her head. And he shot the wall. And you also, and you have to put the piece together when later, Yindel says she's reading this laundry list of charges against Batman.
00:42:37
Speaker
Not once does she ever mention murder in there. Yeah, she never mentions a murder. And when he goes up against the Joker, right? He fucking can't do it. He can't do it. He snaps the Joker's neck, but only to the point where the Joker's paralyzed. He can't go that extra step. And that was after he delivered the like, the coldest line in the game where he's just like,
00:42:59
Speaker
there's nothing about him i can't fix with my hands right and you're just like oh shit and and even then the joker of all people is like i knew that you couldn't do it but don't worry i'll take care of it for you and he literally snaps his own neck to fight batman that is wild like oh boy that dkr batman is
00:43:24
Speaker
Pretty fucking disturbing. Right. But that's one of the things that even in all that, he doesn't he has that line, he will not cross. And this is a great with one of the recent shootings I saw you posted. This was the the famous image of him taking the shotgun and breaking. Yes. And like this is the weapon, the enemy. We don't use it. We don't need it.
00:43:43
Speaker
We don't need it. We don't use it. And he takes this volatile mob and it's just like, look, tonight I will teach you everything you need to know, but tonight the only thing you need are your fists and your brains. And we're going to go out there and we're going to help these people. And that's what we're going to do. We're not going to burn Gotham. We're not going to raise Gotham. We're going to save Gotham. Right. And he leads them in the image of Batman on a horse eating a bunch of like other like vigilantes on horseback. It's one of the most metal things I've ever seen in my fucking life. And I don't, I like.
00:44:12
Speaker
And no matter how jaundiced I might get to the original work, god damn it, that's a good image. Did you ever listen to Kevin Smith's Fat Man on Batman podcast back in the day? I did, I did. Yeah, back in the day. He did an interview with Grant Morrison talking about Batman. I'm not sure if you ever heard this. I think maybe. It was really cool. And he talks about the killing joke, and he came up with this theory of the killing joke that Batman actually kills the Joker at the end of that.
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah. But also, he also had this. He also talked about the Dark Knight Returns. And he said the interesting thing about the Dark Knight Returns is it's an opera. He's like, you look at it and he's like, it becomes, you know, he starts off and it's just like, you know, it's very much, you know, him on the streets and everything. And then eventually you get to this point where he's riding around on fucking horseback. And it's like, he's like, it's an opera. It's operatic. He keeps ascending to the point where he literally fights a god. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, he he has the death
00:45:06
Speaker
and apotheosis. He dies and then ascends or descends is the case maybe. But yes, very like the imagery like Frank's art is by no means where it once was, but at this point. Oh God, this is just perfect. And that's another thing I want to talk about is the animation because during this time in the DC animated movies, they were trying to match the animation with the art style of the comic.
00:45:33
Speaker
Yeah. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it didn't work. Like I think the when they went when they started doing the original animated universe, they were trying to base things off the new 52 and like it doesn't work so much there because they can't really replicate Jim Lee's art style in that way. No, no. His art style is is so suited the comic book page. But when you but it's it's so hyper rendered and detailed and you can't translate that into animation without, you know, making the animators
00:46:03
Speaker
lose their fucking minds. The rendering would be like, just to get all those symbols that they have on the bottom of the boots, like, oh yeah, there'd be a mass riot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or either that, they get to a point where they could eventually taste colors.
00:46:15
Speaker
I mean, yeah, basically. But what I, but then other times there have been ones that have, and also I think the Superman Batman apocalypse where they're trying to replicate Michael Turner's style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Couldn't quite make it work. Like those styles. It's a little janky, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But when they went for the, like the more, not simplified, but less overly detailed, like it worked really well for the public enemies one where they're doing Ed McKee's style. Yes, very true, very true.
00:46:43
Speaker
or when they did Gotham by Gaslight, that was another one where we were pretty well. Yes, very, very good, yeah. But I think this, and All-Star Superman's an accent too, where they're trying to mimic Quightly's art, it worked pretty well there. But I think this one completely, 100% fucking nailed it. Look, I'm just gonna flat out fucking say it, because it needs saying, like the animation team who did the fight between Superman and Batman,
00:47:12
Speaker
They fucking knocked it out of the park. Like Batman V Superman, that one, yeah. That's how you do it. He literally picks up two packs of a steamroller and beats the shit out of Superman. And like, I was just like, holy fuck, cause that's not in the comic. And I was like, Jesus. That's what I was thinking. When I watched this, I'm like, wait a minute. Was that in the comic? I don't remember that. Nope, nope. They threw that one in and they make the fight.
00:47:40
Speaker
so visceral because it's been building to this point. And here's the thing. Here's the thing that everybody forgets. Here's the thing that everybody forgets. Even fans of the book itself, Batman and Superman are still friends.
Batman vs. Superman Iconic Fight
00:47:55
Speaker
That's the thing. It's just that each is profoundly disappointed in the other for different reasons. They still care about each other a great deal. It's just that
00:48:07
Speaker
Bruce is emotionally exhausted with Clark having to constantly toe the line and try to be, you know, living up to that whole truth justice in the American way crap.
00:48:18
Speaker
And simultaneously, Clark is frustrated with the fact that Bruce just keeps flipping over the apple cart. Like he just can't leave well enough alone because that's who he is. And even when they're fighting, Superman is constantly trying to talk to him and get him to stop. But Bruce won't do that because Bruce can't back down. Because not only is this his like last statement as Batman publicly,
00:48:46
Speaker
It's also, as we find out, a double-blind fakeout. Right, yeah. The whole fight is choreographed. Like, Batman knows what he's doing. And people are just like, oh, it's so great when they fight. It's like, no, dude. Like, the fight is a complete
00:49:02
Speaker
Sham. It's a performance. Like, and nobody gets it. They just want to see them, you know, fight and use kryptonite mist and all this kind of shit. That's just like cool. But this is another thing that annoys me about the whole, you know, Batman can beat Superman argument thing. Because first off, it, you know, it...
00:49:21
Speaker
completely oversimplifies both characters to a particular scene. But also another thing that annoys me about it is that you read that fight and yeah, Batman quote unquote wins, but he's got a lot of stuff that acts to work out in his favor. Like you've got a Superman who's just been weakened from a nuclear fucking blast. And even then, the only way Batman wins Z-Base and you've got Superman who's still holding back.
00:49:47
Speaker
Even after he's been at the ground center of a nuclear explosion, you know, he's been fucking emaciated, and then he's building back. He's in a weak state, and even in his weak state, he's still holding back against Batman. He's still trying to talk to him as Batman's fighting him. Superman, even in his weakened state, doesn't go all out here.
00:50:06
Speaker
Exactly. Like if he put the effort into it, yeah, he probably could have popped Bruce's head like a zit, but he doesn't want to do that. Like even when he like defeats the Batmobile and rips the thing open, like he still has that great bit where he looks to Carrie Kelly's like, this is a school night. Young lady. Yeah, he's still Superman. Like he's not a bad guy. He might be misguided, you could argue, but he's still trying to help his friend. It's like, it's like when you see two friends and one of them is drunk trying to pick a fight with the other. I mean, the first one's just like,
00:50:36
Speaker
No, man, I don't want it. He's constantly trying to make him stop. And like, Batman can't stop. That's the that's the gift and the curse of Batman. He's the most determined motherfucker on the planet. If he puts his mind to something, it's gonna happen. So but also to that I think like you said about the
00:50:53
Speaker
the the the fake out thing. I think that's another part that everybody misinterprets. Yeah. Yeah. Yet he he fakes his death in that moment because he knows he can't beat Superman and he's finally listening to Ali because like Ali tells him when they meet, you know, Ali says, oh, yeah, yeah, you always played it, you know, mysterious, but it's a noisy kind of mysterious.
00:51:14
Speaker
He's like, you never, you never learned how to really do this quietly and be effective. He's like, you wanted the show. You wanted the show, basically. And here, this is Batman being like, you know what, Ali's got a point. Like, I got to stop playing this game like this. And so I'll let, you know, I'll throw a few, I'll throw down with Superman and I'll let them think that I'm dead. And then I'm going to, and it, like you said, it's all a fake out. It's not, neither one of them is really committed to this fight.
00:51:43
Speaker
Absolutely. And you'll note, of course, when they are at the funeral and Clark figures it out, he's just like, I'm not going to tell. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great scene they worked in here where he's looking at, he's looking at Carrie and she's like, oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit. And he just kind of like smiles and winks it. That's it.
00:52:07
Speaker
Yeah. Cause that's the thing. He's, he, he still loves his friend, like their brothers, like their brothers that have had a fight and are, you know, they're, they're a bit contentious, but they still care about each other. Like Clark does them the decency of like showing up in that one scene where like, and I fucking God bless the animators for this because that pose in the comic was already great, but then they had the bald eagle come and land on his fucking arm.
00:52:34
Speaker
I was like, yes, yes, this encapsulates DKR Batman's feelings about Superman to a tease, just like Jesus Christ. There's one thing I found myself missing and I understand why, I don't think that it would have worked well in animation, but when Superman's introduced in the comic book and like there's this great,
00:52:52
Speaker
you know, sequence of panels where it's where he's blurred. Yeah. Well, it's just it's like the it's the American flag and it's slowly morphed into the more so the issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was beautifully rendered like it's one of my favorite pages from the Dark Knight Returns. But you I don't think you could really do that and have it make sense in animation. So I understand why they didn't do it. But man, I found myself missing that. And that was that would have been fucking cool as it stands, his introduction when he shows up
00:53:19
Speaker
to talk to Bruce and Bruce is dressed up as the bag lady and he's fighting the Neo-Nazi mutant gang.
00:53:29
Speaker
the whole bit where like he flies around and saves people without them seeing him. And then like literally the lady shoots the fucking machine gun and he's just standing there for a minute. Like in silhouette, like don't get me wrong. I've come to really despise the bit where Superman's eyes glow red and his face is in shadow because that shit is so tired, but it's still pretty fucking cool when he like melts the gun and just like, you know, he takes off and
00:53:59
Speaker
You know, we have to talk. That bit was great. Not here. Talk to you when I'm ready for you. Yeah. Meet at the manor. And then they have that scene where they sit down together and talk. And like, you know, you look better than you have in ages, but eventually Bruce, somebody's going to come to me and ask me to stop you.
00:54:17
Speaker
And Bruce is just like, well, when that happens, let the best man win. He's just like, he's that chill, like, fucking great. I think there's a big misreading of Superman as well in this story, because this is... And I think a lot of people gloss over the backstory in this comic. And I think there's that, like you mentioned that line before where Superman's narrating and he says that, you know,
00:54:45
Speaker
they referenced the parents groups coming after us and everything, which was all about, when you think about it, that he's talking about the Wharton trials. Absolutely, he's talking about corruption of the innocent, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's this,
00:55:03
Speaker
You really get this sense that all the other heroes are gone. The only one who is still allowed to operate is Superman because he's agreed to work with the government. And you really kind of see, and this is why I say like Frank Miller's politics are all over the place in this because- Yes.
00:55:18
Speaker
You see this and it's, you know, a fucking indictment of Reagan. Full stop. Like this is not this is not a Ronald Reagan that people this is not like the Ronald Reagan that, you know, the centrist media likes to remember. This is this is Ronald Reagan, the the corrupt motherfucking asshole, which is what he was in reality. Yeah, absolutely. Like he's so shifty and slimy. Yeah. Constantly talking out of both sides of his mouth. Right.
00:55:45
Speaker
And you get the sense that Clark is a, and I know they explain this in DK2, which in a terrible way, where it's like this one. I don't, you say the words, but they're not going in, I don't.
00:56:01
Speaker
Okay, so in this hypothetical scenario, we're kind of in this intersecting dimensions thing. You're in a reality world. I'm in a reality world. You disappeared mysteriously. Here in my universe, we had this, Frank Miller did a sequel called The Dark Knight Strikes Again.
00:56:22
Speaker
And Reagan was a hologram being controlled by Lex Luther and Brainiac and Superman was working doing what the government wanted because Luther had the bottle city of candor kept prisoner basically. And it's, you know, it
00:56:37
Speaker
Fucking ridiculous. But I think and I like to I like this interpretation. When I'm watching this, I get the interpretation like this is a Superman who, you know, he grew up, you know, raised in this because you got to remember this is said in the 1980s. Yes. So this is a Batman and Superman who were born in the 1930s. Right. Because they're absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So.
00:56:59
Speaker
So you're dealing with the Superman who grew up during the 40s and the 50s and the idea of like the post-war era and, you know, you know, the Americana type of bullshit and all that kind of stuff. Right. Right. And he grew up on a, you know, he's a white kid growing up on a farm in Canada. So the whole idea of like him growing up and believing in
00:57:21
Speaker
the American government in the American way, which anyone who knows anything about history or anybody who's not a straight white guy knows it was not this mythical paradise time. Yeah, not sunshine and rainbows. No, no, no, no. But for a middle-class white kid growing up in the farmland, yeah, it seemed like a pretty good time. You got your parents telling you, raising you up to believe in truth, justice in the American way. And you see that get corrupted by
00:57:52
Speaker
by the Reagan revolution and all that. And I feel like this is a Superman who's just been broken from like Vietnam, from Watergate and like the, and all that's kind of like there in the background. I kind of feel like he's like, he's like, I still want to believe in that, but I just, and it's that, like a lot of people did, like a lot of people went along with the bullshit. I think he is still an idealist. If,
00:58:21
Speaker
The Batman of Dark Knight Returns is the Adam West Batman. An argument could be made that the Superman of this is the George Reeves Superman. Oh, definitely. I think definitely. Where he is truth, justice, the American way, all that. And I think that he is, we have to assume that, of course, Momparr gone. We don't get any reference to Lois or Metropolis or anything like that. We don't know what's going on with that. He has thrown himself fully into the role of Superman.
00:58:47
Speaker
for all intents and purposes. So we don't really know like what's happening there. He still believes in the dream, but he's resigned himself to the fact that all he can do is put out fires and hope against hope that people
00:59:07
Speaker
will turn things around because he, he has the power. Like if, if Bruce had that power, Oh shit, I get what makes speed. The DKR suit, DKR Batman with DKR Superman's powers would make fucking Superman speeding bullets look like a trip through Candyland. You know, I think, and I'm going to put this in a very modern political context, but Superman in this, he's basically Joe Biden. Basically. Yeah. He's, he's Joe Biden. He just wants to,
00:59:33
Speaker
He just wants to keep the apple cart from completely flipping over. And he has the power. He wants to believe that things are still normal, but they're not. And he's not waking up to that. Yeah. No. And like, Batman has that great speech to him where it's like, you answer to an authority. Like, you have literally surrendered. And so it's like, yeah, it's as Kevin Smith mentioned in his commentary, I think, for Dark Knight Returns, was like, you fucking sold out, man. Like, you sold out. You bought in.
01:00:03
Speaker
to the bullshit. Like, there was a time when, you know, and we remember the golden age Superman in the 1930s, he was a shit disturber, right? Yeah, he was a two-fisted socialist crusader, like, he'd get a mat on against slum landlords, knock down their buildings, hopefully people got out of the first, but anyway, and he would like,
01:00:20
Speaker
he beat up like domestic abusers, he'd go after the political fat cats, he'd like toss, you know, corrupt senators up in the air and catch them. Like, you know, and he was he was a guy who spoke truth to Powell. But then of course, you know, and I think this also ties back to Frederick Wertham, because it's the development of the Comics Code Authority. And that's when the superheroes stopped being vigilantes and started moving into being, you know, defenders of the status quo. Like, they don't really flip the shit over anymore. They're more about
01:00:49
Speaker
let's just keep everything the same as it always is. And this Superman is still a party to that. But you could argue that DKR Batman has become kind of like self-aware in the narrative. And it's like, wait, this is bullshit action. Like we were shit disturbers. We were the guys who were supposed to like clean up the town, like step outside the law to help the people. And now we've lost our way, so. I think that's why I love Ali so much in this. Cause I think- Yeah, exactly. Cause he's a character who,
01:01:19
Speaker
who came to this kind of realization in, and this is kind of like a weird, I feel like the more I think about Dark Knight Returns, the more I think it's a commentary on the Reagan Revolution, it's a commentary on the 80s, but it's also a commentary on the comic industry as a whole.
01:01:36
Speaker
And, you know, it's, you know, it's calling out Superman for for selling out and for agreeing to go along with it. Whereas and if you look at the evolution of these characters, Superman had been pretty consistent with that ever since the warden stuff. And, you know, very much like that. Almost like Frozen and Amber for up until, you know, Man of Steel and John. Yeah, you could argue 1986. Yeah. Right. Which this would have been done at the same time. So it's understandable why the.
01:02:06
Speaker
I think it's one of the things that John your team decided was like, okay, he's going to be powerful, but he's going to have
01:02:13
Speaker
real limits here. Like we can't, we can't make him like it's him in the specter and the specter better be in his Wheaties. We've got to make him, we've got to make him tough, but not that strong. It's like in Superman, the animated series where like, right strong, but he'll still get knocked on his ass. Like one of my favorite bits of that is when he tries to like stop the plane by grabbing the wing and he accidentally pulls off the way and he's like, nice one, Clark. And just like, you know, he's still learning. He's still developing it. It's, it's unfortunate that that
01:02:41
Speaker
version of him was just the one that they were working with because, you know, they could have had a real commentary on him being like this force for change that suddenly decided to compromise. It's actually, you know, in a weird way, he's almost like the hippies of the sixties who became the yuppies of the eighties. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the perfect description of him. He's basically like a commentary on the whole boomer generation.
01:03:10
Speaker
Exactly. Like he still thinks that he can enact positive social change, but he has become part of the very mechanisms that he once fought against. Right. Whereas I think and I think this is like some of the meta commentary Miller's making on the industry, whereas Batman and had, you know, had
01:03:27
Speaker
kind of gone against that thanks to O'Neill and Adams. The Green Arrow had gone like completely off script from there. Like the Green Arrow of hard traveling heroes is if you read those stories back to back, you would be, and you would be for, and if I even, if I just went through and changed the names of the characters or like obscured them, you would be forgiven for not thinking that those are two, for thinking that those are two different characters. Because they basically were.
01:03:57
Speaker
Yeah, Ollie is, Ollie is just great. I mean, he's, he doesn't, he, he's basically a glorified cameo. Yeah. But when he's there, he's so good. And that whole bit where he, he pulls off the shot and manages to like get a piece of Clark with this fucking teeth, like that is the most metal shit in the world. Like let's see Hawkeye pull that one. I mean, good Lord.
01:04:26
Speaker
and he manages to pull it off in like high, oh, goddamn silver fucking no notes. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Just absolutely perfect. I was, you know, I'm rewatching this last night and I'm thinking, I'm like, you know, what I really want to see is I want to see like a green arrow series that kind of captures this version of the character or like, you know, this, like, you know, this leftist version of the character because as good as the longbow hunters were, it,
01:04:51
Speaker
almost completely eschewed all the political stuff from the character. Yeah, the thing about the Longbow Hunters is it's just kind of like a revenge narrative. Right, right. Some really not great things to Dinah that I did not appreciate and still don't. Yeah. But I do think that there is like, there was a point where they almost had the settings, I think it was around Rebirth where Star City suddenly had this big forest in the middle of it, and he kind of became like a Robin Hood analog. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was really good. Yeah, yeah, that was really good. And I think that
01:05:22
Speaker
The thing about, oh boy, the problem with Arrow, and Arrow was great, was that he was back. That was basically all he was. They didn't have a chance to really play with the actual character of Oliver Queen, where he's a shit disturbing, loud-mouthed liberal. I think my favorite interpretation of him outside of this is, of course, the one in Justice League Unlimited. I think you're what I protested against in college.
01:05:48
Speaker
He's just so great like Oliver works best in the group where he's just like in the back and
01:05:55
Speaker
always arguing for the little guy. That's what I love about him. Like he's all, like he's cantankerous, he's curmudgeonly, but he cares a lot about you. And he- It's like I always say, Oliver Queen at his best is Bernie Sanders with a bow and arrow. With a bow and arrow, yeah, exactly. And he knows Kung Fu. So he will absolutely wreck your shit. Yeah. Like, and he's creative enough to make a boxing glove arrow. I mean, for Jesus sake, that is, that's some talent there. I mean,
01:06:22
Speaker
If DC ever hires me to do a project, I would want to do a project like an out of continuity of Black Label's graphic novel or limited series or something with like Oliver Queen as like this, you know, this far left antagonist against like in a late stage capitalist dystopia. I think that's the perfect setting for that character and I don't understand why nobody's done that.
01:06:44
Speaker
I think that's just the perfect setting for superheroes in general because they need to get back to their punk rock roots. I mean, the status is not quo anymore. We've got to show them shit disturbing.
Batman Teaching New Vigilantes
01:06:56
Speaker
And I think that that's one of the things that we ultimately come away from with this is that Batman realizes, okay, the old ways aren't gonna work. I gotta be a bit more quiet, but I'll teach this next generation the best of what I've got and hopefully they can go on
01:07:12
Speaker
make something of it. So that's what I love about this. It's an interesting book and movie. It's just the way that, okay, I'm just gonna, the funeral and his relationship with Selena, because we get to see Selena in a little bit. And that was one of the first bits where I was like, I started to pull away from Frank a little bit, because he makes Selena a madam, and then I was a prostitute. And I'm just like, Frank.
01:07:42
Speaker
This is where it started. Yeah, this is where it all started to go wrong. I'm not sure. I think it was like maybe 10 years ago. There's this webcam I called short packed. I'm not sure if you ever read it. Yeah, I think I know it's one you're talking about. So for anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, there's this great one where the guy who did it, he had a lot of did a lot of, you know, it was it was ostensibly about a
01:08:05
Speaker
you know, bunch of people working in a toy store. But he also had a lot of these other stuff with just like commentary on comics and pop culture in general. One of my favorite ones is the there's there are a bunch of these shadowy like government types and they have Frank Miller prisoner. They're like, we're glad you came here, Frank Miller. Now, here's your assignment. We're going to put a gun to your head. You have to write a story about women in which she is not a woman who is not a prostitute.
01:08:30
Speaker
And he starts typing, you know, WH and the next recipe is just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And you see the gun click. Oh, Frank. Never change. But this is what started because then after this, we got year one where he came right out and made Selena a prostitute. A prostitute. And you're just like, Frank. Yeah. Frank. No.
01:08:53
Speaker
She's a jewel thief. She's one of the most talented jewel thieves on the planet. Just let her be that. Which it upset me in Dark Knight Rises when they kept that origin story for her with her being like a prostitute or like kind of hinted at it. Kind of hinted that she does whatever she needs to do to get the mark and you're like, ugh. But I'm glad the dark, the Batman didn't.
01:09:16
Speaker
They did that was refresh. Yeah. Yeah. They, they made her very much like, yeah, she's a thief. She sometimes dresses slinky to get what she needs to obtain in order to pull off her heists, but she's very much, you know, not bad, not good. Just kind of like herself, but you know, still she's got a code. There's lines she won't cross that sort of thing, which I, which I appreciate. And you know, nothing against sex workers or anything like that either. Oh, absolutely not. But I just, but the idea that, you know,
01:09:46
Speaker
there was this trend that if we're gonna make a villainous character edgy, we have to make her a former prostitute or something. And we have to make her a sex worker as seen through the filtered lens of a dude. Right, right. So like, you know, it's not gonna be the most nuanced portrayal in the world. Yeah. So yeah, and that's an unfortunate side effect. Yeah. But yeah, the animation in this is just amazing. And like, the way they capture like,
01:10:12
Speaker
One of the, when I think of the understated aspects of what makes Dark Knight Returns so good, the comic book is Lynn Varley's coloring. Like she knew how to really make Miller's, you know, pencils and inks really kind of pop. Jump off the page, yeah. And that really, and Claus Johnson too, he yanked it, so I should get him right into it. But yeah, but when you compare it to the stuff that he did since without her, it's just like, it's not the same, it's lacking.
01:10:41
Speaker
Not quite the same. Yeah, it's absolutely great. The animation is crisp. Everybody, like the cast is great. I mean, we haven't, you know, Ariel Winter as Carrie Kelly, Wade Williams as Harvey Dent Too Faced, which we haven't really talked about, but absolutely crushes it. David Selby as Commissioner Gordon, Mike McKeon as Dr. Bartholomew Wolber.
01:11:02
Speaker
And Mark Valley, you got to give it up to Mark Valley as Superman. Cause Superman is really good. Like, I mean, I, I wasn't, I wasn't so settled on Michael Emerson's Joker though. I feel like he, I feel it's tough because you're always doing a vocal performance. You're always in the shadow of him. Um, it's tough to like really break out. I mean, even Troy Baker is talented as he is just doesn't riff. Um, it's tough. I mean,
01:11:33
Speaker
I don't know who I would have cast as an older Joker. Yeah. I'm not sure. It'd be tough. I mean, I mean, I feel like you just, I think, I feel like you just need a voice that's a little bit more maniacal. Like his voice is fine when he's in the, when he's in the Arkham home. When he gets out, it still has that kind of like,
01:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it doesn't quite reach there and when it's the Joker you expect a certain amount of over the top. Right, right. He's, he's, he's an absolute monster but he loves every minute of it, but I was thinking, but now that I'm not gonna put my head on it I mean.
01:12:14
Speaker
you need somebody like who could do a really good Bowie because it's very obvious that the Joker and DKR is David Bowie's like Finn like Duke persona basically. That would be that would be something that I would think about but yeah.
Voice Acting and Cold War Subplot
01:12:29
Speaker
Yeah Ariel Winter did a perfect job like if I had ever you know when I like that was like whenever I read this book and I was like that it's basically that voice I heard in my head.
01:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, basically. She handles the future slang really well. So she manages to handle that and she's just great. I mean, Robin in this is one of my favorite Robins out there. I mean, I think it only belongs in this particular piece, but they've definitely like picked up the ball in terms of like when Stephanie Brown was Robin and you know, before she went back to being spoiler, you know, there's something to be said for the Carrie Kelly Robin.
01:13:10
Speaker
and for this portrayal in general. I mean, it's not one that I want to visit on the regular, but for this story, it absolutely works. It works, yeah. Now I read that some people, apparently they criticized the Cold War subplot in this, but I feel like it's hard to change that without making it a completely different story. I think you have to view this as a period piece. That's the only way to review it. You have to acknowledge it. I mean, my internal headcanon was like,
01:13:37
Speaker
This is the Dark Knight Returns movie that should have come out shortly after the comic book, like 87, 88, this should have come out. And we didn't get it then, but we get it now. So I absolutely think that it has to operate within the parameters of the Cold War because you have to have that. Otherwise you miss out on one of the most iconic sequences from the book, which is Superman versus a nuke. Which is just like, that imagery,
01:14:07
Speaker
was Indiana Jones cresting the rise and seeing the H-bomb cloud of its time. Like it's this classic hero facing down something that is very real and very much something that could wipe out all of humanity. And you get that amazing sequence where like he gets jacked. Like he's a desiccated husk.
01:14:28
Speaker
And that's one of the most striking images of all time, like the nuclear blast imagery. To this day, sometimes my brain is like, did he whip this up on a computer somehow? Like the way that the lightning crackles around Superman's form looks so, so weird. And then when he lands and crashes on the ground,
01:14:48
Speaker
and he absorbs the energy from the plant. And he's talking to the earth itself as though it were his mother. Like that shit is wild. It's one of the trippiest sequences in the whole book. You could probably have lifted it from the movie, but they chose to leave it in and it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. When I think about all the Warner Brothers animation, honestly, I think this might be my favorite of the animated films.
Comparing Animated Films
01:15:18
Speaker
It's touch and go with me. I really like New Frontier. New Frontier is really good. New Frontier is really good. I think that New Frontier and this film are very much companion pieces in that they are two different polarities of the superhero genre. But at the same time, they're very complimentary to each other.
01:15:37
Speaker
and Cook even acknowledges it in the book because he has Superman and Batman have a fight. But here's the thing, they faked it. They deliberately faked that fight so that, you know, ostensibly Superman was helping Batman get some breathing room. So that's some cool, cool shit. I love that scene in the New Frontier comic.
01:16:00
Speaker
Yeah. When, when Superman meets up with Batman and like Robin is just like so jazzed to me, Superman. And, you know, and Clark goes to Bruce, kids knew that's something and Batman's like, try something different now. And he's just like, like Bruce, you big fucking softy. Like, I love that. Oh, yeah. It's great. And it's a wonderful companion piece to this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would argue that.
01:16:27
Speaker
You know, year one's pretty good too. Year one's good, year one's good, but I don't know, like it just, I don't know, the year one story, it just, and I get why they focus it so much on Gordon, but I just feel like there's too much Gordon, not enough Batman for a Batman year one story.
Focus on Batman Year One
01:16:45
Speaker
I feel like Batman's almost like a supporting character in what's supposed to be his movie. And also I just really, I don't like the whole, the way that Miller handled the,
01:16:57
Speaker
the marriage affair and all that kind of stuff. I feel like it's- Yeah, that's a bit weird. It's not what you want it to be. Right. Which is, you know, and they've kind of tried to revisit this a couple of times in other different media to a greater or lesser extent. You know what I think would make for a great animated adaptation, but haven't done it yet, but they really should, would be Batman year two.
01:17:22
Speaker
Because that comic is really fun. I read that fairly recently. That'd be interesting. I mean, as its own little Elseworlds thing. Right, right. Because to my way of thinking, as much as Joe Chill is interesting, Joe Chill is also fucking horrible because Bruce should never have caught the killer. Yeah, I agree. Of his parents. Like, it's an interesting Elseworlds. And yeah, but the image of Batman with a gun is just like so jarring, especially when it's drawn by Alan Davis.
01:17:52
Speaker
I would love to see that the Reaper is just one of the most, just so cool design. Like how can you not, how can you not love that? We got a little bit of a version of that with Mask of the Phantasm because a lot of stuff came from that. Mask of the Phantasm is easily, you know,
01:18:15
Speaker
arguably the best Batman movie. True, true, yeah. I mean, it's hard to debate. Putting that one aside though, I think this one, or at least of the more modern DC animated stuff, I think this would probably be my favorite. This is a good one, yeah. It's real good. I don't know, man. Like I'm touch and go, because sometimes I'm like, yeah, new frontier. And sometimes I'm like, ooh, but Superman red sun. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm hard to settle on, but it's definitely in the top five. Yeah. Without question.
01:18:46
Speaker
It is, it's like diecast metal construction. It is solid.
01:18:50
Speaker
and it is dependable and you can slide it into your Blu-ray player or cue it up on your streaming and you know you're gonna have a good time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was, and there's parts of it that still wow me. Like that first scene when Batman comes back out onto the scene. Like that's just an amazing sequence. Yeah, the older cops like, oh, you're in for a show tonight, son. It's just like, oh fuck.
Batman as a Symbol
01:19:13
Speaker
And that whole bit with the reporters where it's like reported some kind of creature and the reporter's like, you don't think.
01:19:21
Speaker
and he like jumps across the fucking, the lightning goes off and you're like, fuck, yes, Batman, go get him. Like, yeah, yeah, it's so good. And the only thing that's missing is the rain on my chest is like a baptism. Like, oh, that shit. I mean, not all the dialogue, not all the narration, but maybe just a little bit, just a little bit every now and then. There's one line of dialogue though that I feel like they should have, I've never like, I know it's a famous line from the comic, but I've never really liked it.
01:19:50
Speaker
And it's the second fight with the mutant leader. And he says, you know, this is not a mud pit, it's an operating table and I'm the surgeon. And I'm the surgeon. I just never liked that line. I just, I'm just feel like, okay, like it feels like you're trying too hard now. It's the line that people focus on, but the real one, the one that should put shippers up your back is like, my instincts tell me to stop with the line. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:20:16
Speaker
I don't listen to them. They're just like, Oh shit, Batman. And he's like standing in the mud over the mutant leader's broken body. And you're just like, Oh wow. Okay. Um, yeah, he's not playing around anymore. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it is a weird kind of janky line, but, but you know, the whole thing of it is like, he's walking right up to the red line of his code. Like he's not going to kill him, but he's definitely going to leave him.
01:20:44
Speaker
broken for the rest of his life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's, I've got such a love-hate relationship with this source material though, and it's just like- Yeah, it's frustrating because on the one hand, like we've been sitting here and we've been like, oh, that's so cool. Oh, that's so cool. That's dope. That's amazing. But unfortunately,
01:21:06
Speaker
As we've said previously, all the wrong lessons were taken from this story. And people thought, oh, well, this is dark. We should do it even darker. And you're like, oh, you can't. Stuff like this should be an exception and not the rule because the more you try to make things darker and realistic, the more you deconstruct, the harder it is to put things back together and make them
01:21:29
Speaker
fun, you know? Yeah. I think so much of this, and I think just like with Watchmen, the lesson that people fail to learn is the whole point of both these stories is that these guys are broken. They're not, and it's not, it's not, it is, like you said, it's a deconstruction. That's what it was supposed to be. Yeah. And it's not supposed to be the standard going forward. No. And I think that's the biggest
01:21:56
Speaker
wrong lesson to take from this. Like you don't want a Batman who was like the punisher. Cause what's the point? No, because Batman, people always forget like I've mentioned this before, but you know, Batman's whole thing is that I think it's encapsulated in kingdom come so amazingly is Clark calls them out and it's just like, look, the whole reason that you're Batman is because you don't want people to die. Like you're, you, he throws himself between, you know,
01:22:26
Speaker
that family that he wants to save in the alley and crime. Like he made a child's vow. I'm going to war on crime. He gave himself an impossible task, but vengeance isn't his deal. His deal is that he goes out there to protect people. And he does it in a full court press, like with the Wayne foundation, you know, he does it with, you know, he trains all these kids. He has the biggest family in the world for such a brooding loner. Like he, he,
01:22:52
Speaker
He wants to help people. That's the core of who Batman is. He wants to help. That's what I loved about Batman. That's what I loved about the Batman. They had him go on that arc and he goes from I'm vengeance to no, no, no, I'm a hero. That's what I'm a hero. Exactly. Yeah. He realizes that one person going out and beating the Jesus out of criminals isn't going to solve the problem. Right. But if he's out there as a deterrent and as a symbol, as something that people can rally around,
01:23:20
Speaker
Like as something they know that there's somebody out there on their side who's trying to help them. Like that's where Batman's at his most effective. Like there's always this tired argument that Bruce Wayne with his billions should just buy crime and just solve all the problems. And it's like, look, I get it. That's a very glib answer. And sure, it'll get you some brownie points with certain people. But at the end of the day,
01:23:47
Speaker
Bruce is already doing that. My headcanon is that he keeps just enough money to keep up appearances and fund his war on crime. Everything else goes to the Wayne Foundation. Everything else goes to trying to live up to his mother and father's highest ideals. He wants to go out there and help people. He funds the Justice League, for God's sake. He pours money into all his various ventures.
01:24:14
Speaker
the Teen Titans, like everything, he'll do whatever is needed. Like he's probably pushed that fortune so far into the red that Lucius Fox is just barely managing to keep the lights up. I feel like, yeah, I feel like so many of the people who make these, you know, these asinine, Batman is just a cop, Batman, you know, just goes out, beats up poor people, comments you see on
Realism in Superhero Narratives
01:24:35
Speaker
Twitter. They're made by people who have never read a fucking comic book in their life. And the only image they have of Batman is from like,
01:24:43
Speaker
the Snyder movies, and that's it. Yeah. Or the Nolan films. Yeah. They're trying to apply the real world and logic to an escapist character. Right, right. Like, it's not going to work. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, well, why wouldn't Superman conquer the planet? Like, he's just, he's, he's, why shouldn't he just be like the home man? Because he's a good dude. Like, Clark Kent,
01:25:06
Speaker
is your best friend. He's the uncle who slips you a sip of his beer and helps you fix your car. I feel like a lot of these people too, they seem to miss the point that these are fictional characters. And if you say, okay, yeah.
01:25:22
Speaker
You know, Batman should would should use all his money and, you know, not not dressing up as a as a bat. But then, you know, like, OK, so then you're just going to get a bunch of stories with the rich guy funding charities. Do you really want to watch that movie? I don't think I don't I don't think you want 90 minutes of that. And I mean, look, I mean. Superhero stories were built and designed to be parables for children. And unfortunately, stories like The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen
01:25:51
Speaker
kind of shoehorned the real world in there. And, you know, it's kind of poisoned the well a little bit in terms of like, you can't really go back to the fun, good old days of like, hey, a sea monster shows up and starts attacking Metropolis. Now we gotta be like, well, where'd the sea monster come from? Where did it get spied? Is it a mutant? Did it come from another dimension? What is this? What is that? What is this? What is that? It's the cinema sensification of comic books. Like everything has to like,
01:26:19
Speaker
get ahead of a ding that somebody's gonna point out. And it's just, it's exhausting because I just wanna have fun doing it. Yeah, Derek had said something like this and he was speaking specifically to the Nolan movies, but I think this argument applies for like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns. But he said that his problem with the Nolan movies is that in trying to make Batman realistic and trying to show Batman in the real world and ground it is like all it did to him was prove that Batman doesn't work in the real world.
01:26:49
Speaker
Well, yeah, the whole thesis of the Nolan movies is that being Batman is stupid, actually. Right. So I mean, aside from that one bit, you know, Batman Begins is pretty good. But I think the reason I mainly like Batman Begins so much is because there's a lot of like similarities between it and Mask of the Phantasm. But there is that one image at the end of the movie where like Batman is staring out over the city
01:27:15
Speaker
And I think we're meant to take from it, Bruce being like, Jesus, this is never gonna end, is it? And then of course, he goes through his things where he eventually decides, oh, I don't wanna be Batman anymore. I wasn't Batman for eight years. And sitting there in dark night rises, I immediately crossed my arms and glared at the screen because I was like, Batman gave up. Batman, my friend, my dude,
01:27:42
Speaker
my brother in Christ, Batman does not give up. That's the whole thing of Batman. He will keep coming. Like Dark Knight Returns wasn't like, wasn't beyond the box case because he just decided, look, I can't keep going up this hill. I'm getting older and lost Jason and maybe I should hang it up. But even then,
01:28:04
Speaker
he comes back around to it because Batman doesn't give up. Well, I mean, same thing, if you look at like Batman Beyond, too, it's the same type of idea where the only reason he gives up is because he physically can't do it anymore. He physically can't do it anymore. Like, and to the point where he has to draw a gun. Like, I would have had a little more respect for The Dark Knight Rises if they'd shown us a sequence where he was Batman, but he physically couldn't do it anymore. Like, we see his leg give out and he has to pull the gun.
01:28:32
Speaker
And I would have respected the movie more for that rather than just having pulled a Howard Hughes and just be in his house, you know, you know, talking about a sled or whatever. Like I just, I'm, I was, I was not impressed. Yeah. But yeah. But I think that's all we got to say
Dark Knight Returns Influence
01:28:50
Speaker
about dark night. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, we, the long and the short of it is watch it, you know, have a good time with it, but, you know, just be aware that for better or worse, it had its impact on the media.
01:29:02
Speaker
And you got to take the rough and smooth. I mean, it's still a good story at the end of the day. It's still a good story. But it's just like, I think people overemphasize the impact that it should have. And I think, like you said, they're focusing on, they're learning the wrong lessons from it. And I think we've got to just remember that, yes, it's a really good Batman story, but it's not the only Batman story. There are other good Batman stories.
01:29:31
Speaker
this should not be the standard. Like this is set in a specific world, in a specific time, and it's a specific message.
01:29:39
Speaker
And I think, and Frank Miller, you know, obviously he undercut this message himself when he went and he did, you know, All-Star Batman and Robin, he shows Batman. No, no, Batman's always been like this. And it's like, well, no. Batman's always been crazy. Yeah. Which, no, that's part of the, I think part of the thing that is overlooked. I think even Miller himself forgot this. And we can get into the whole thing, like how much of All-Star Batman and Robin was Miller parroting himself. I feel like,
01:30:03
Speaker
Partly I get that argument, but partly I feel like Miller only said that after everybody started was like, this is fucking insane. Oh, yeah. Oh, oh, Frank. Yeah, boy. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like they. Yeah, people need to realize it's not the only Batman story. There's other Batman stories that are just as good, maybe even better.
01:30:27
Speaker
It allows for a darker take on the character. And sometimes that could be fun to explore, absolutely. But yeah, it kind of became a victim of its own height. Like it became this template that they didn't want to deviate from whatsoever because it almost became like a talisman to DC Comics. Like we gotta make something as good as this. We've gotta do something as good. That's why you get stuff like,
01:30:55
Speaker
Jim Starlin's the cult and you're just like, ooh boy. Oh boy. I think part of the problem too is also with a lot of people citing these as like the two books that people knew to comic should read. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. These are comics you should read after you've experienced a lot of other comics. Cause then you'll understand what they're doing.
01:31:13
Speaker
After you've found some things that you like, you know, try a few things on and if you want to go back and see what all the hubbub was about, you can definitely check out both the Watchmen and the Dark Knight Returns. They've got a lot of things that are interesting, but at the end of the day, you should also treat it like, you know, less as the greatest thing ever and more like this was where the medium was at at the time where it started to kind of question itself.
01:31:40
Speaker
started asking questions about, you know, about the genre of superhero fiction. You know, unfortunately, yeah, as we've said, you know, everybody thought this was the thing to beat, but, you know, it's just, look, I'm just gonna say it. I mean, as much as I love Dark Knight Returns and, you know, Watchmen, I'm a Squadron Supreme kid. That was the, that was the shit. Like, don't get me wrong, these guys, these guys are great, like,
01:32:08
Speaker
Both tied for silver, but it's quadrant Supreme. When they make that movie or Disney plus streaming show. I don't think they're ready for that. Like good stuff. But yeah, this is, this is great. Absolutely. Check out the dark night returns. You will not regret it.
01:32:26
Speaker
And, you know, if you want to check out year one, you can definitely do that too. You could maybe pair it into a double bill. I wouldn't go out of my way, but if you want to see where, if you want to see the bookends, yeah, by all means go ahead. I mean, also I wouldn't, one of the things I like about this too is that they, cause a lot of the DC animated movies, they try to keep them, they try to force them into that 90 minute block. And I felt like this was one of the weaknesses with All-Star Superman was in trying to force into that 90 minute block,
01:32:54
Speaker
they left some stuff out that I thought was really important to that story. And I feel like
01:33:01
Speaker
they, and here they just, they are like, no, no, we're not doing that. We're going to let this story fully breathe. I mean, like the individual parts are over 90 minutes even, right? I mean, I believe so. Oh, no, no, no, they're like 75 minutes each, but they split up in two, but you know, together it's like, you know, it's two and a half hours. So I mean, it's not a short movie when it, and it's good. They gave it the time it needed to tell the story properly.
01:33:28
Speaker
Yeah, they make a meal of it and they definitely, they are at once very attentive to the source material, but not afraid to tweak things a little bit to make it more cinematic, like the loss of the voiceover and stuff like that. And a lot of the imagery lends itself like it homages a lot of the imagery from the comic, but it doesn't necessarily have to be one-to-one
01:33:54
Speaker
translation of it, which I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a, it did a really good job of telling that line as well.
Promotions and Social Media
01:34:01
Speaker
Okay, Stacy, it's always fun when you have, when you come on, we always got to have you come back on again. Oh, definitely. I'm always game. But why don't you tell people where they can find you? Well, you can find me online at Stacy HD on Twitter, where you can, that's the most reliable place you can grab me for my own personal
01:34:17
Speaker
opinions on pop culture and various whatnots. I also am co-host of the Fanboy Power Hour podcast with my brother Ryan. Every week we sit down and talk about pop culture, nerdy stuff from our own 40s-ish fanboy perspective. So the two ironies are that neither of us are boys and the podcast is very rarely an hour because we're both talkative.
01:34:44
Speaker
Okay, and that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget, if you sign up for the Patreon at any level, you also get the companion show, Superhero Cinephiles Book Club, where we talk about comic books and graphic novels and all that kind of, all that fun stuff. And also you get these episodes, the regular show, a week in advance if you do that too. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
01:35:13
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points if you're interested in reading some comics but don't know where you should start. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else.
01:35:40
Speaker
On all of this for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash SuperCinemaPod and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:36:17
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.