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Sharp Objects Part Two
29 Plays1 month ago
📖✨ In this episode of Book Watch, we’re diving into the haunting world of Sharp Objects — Gillian Flynn’s chilling debut novel and its gripping HBO limited series adaptation starring Amy Adams.
How does the show capture the psychological depth and Southern Gothic atmosphere of Flynn’s writing? What changes amplify the tension — and which ones cut a little too deep?
💡 In this episode, we explore:
✅ The complex character of Camille Preaker and Amy Adams’ mesmerizing performance
✅ The unsettling mother-daughter dynamics and small-town secrets that drive the story
✅ How the adaptation uses visuals, pacing, and sound to mirror Camille’s mental unraveling
Tune in as we peel back the layers of this dark and twisty tale — where every scar tells a story. 💙
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Book Watch and Character Arcs
00:00:47
alyssa
Hi. I
00:00:48
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Hi Alyssa, welcome back to another episode of Book Watch where we will be doing part two of our page to screen discussion. So in this episode, we'll get into kind of the key plot points and our our our character arc conversation. We moved from our first episode to this one because I feel like their character arcs in this story are so integral to the key plots.
Camille's Return to Wind Gap: Past and Present Challenges
00:01:13
alyssa
i agree.
00:01:13
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Um, so I guess let's go ahead and dive in, and um with kind of our introduction to Camille and, um, she knows she goes into work and her boss says, you're going to go to wind gap, your hometown to investigate these murders.
00:01:18
alyssa
but
00:01:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Um, how did you think that went from page to screen?
00:01:34
alyssa
The very concept of her having to return to a place that she lost her previous ah her sister, um having to return to a place where she grew up in a claustrophobic house that honestly looks hella haunted. It's one of those things where like I felt incredibly bad from her from the very first chapter. um And I do feel like there were so many undiagnosed people um things that she was experiencing that she just wasn't getting the the support she needed.
00:01:57
alyssa
So from the very first chapter, I could really see it mirroring the book perfectly.
00:02:01
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hu
00:02:02
alyssa
um And I just, I wish I could have grabbed her and and as a friend been like, turn around, don't do it.
00:02:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah.
00:02:07
alyssa
But she needed
Substance Abuse and Work Pressure
00:02:08
alyssa
to do it for work. and And as you previously mentioned in our, in the previous episode, she was already struggling with substance abuse issues with just drinking and alcoholism. I think her boss also that line between boss and friend he was like a father figure but i think he could see as she was struggling as you mentioned so in a lot of ways she did not want to go back at the same time just adult things she had to she has to make some money um so she ends up going back for work but the murders mirror something that happened in her past which is interesting
00:02:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:02:35
alyssa
um So that's ah very, very spooky. um Also, the murders are quite grisly.
Comparative Themes: Show vs. Mindhunter
00:02:40
alyssa
It definitely reminds me a lot of another show, um the Mindhunter show based off ah the FBI and the development of um that new fields within them. It's kind of analyzing why killers kill, um not just out of random acts of rage. um This book was also similar to that, where you could see the police trying to track this crime and then Camille kind of being in the background, slightly inebriated, also continuing to cut herself. It was just too many. It was too many moving parts. My girl was fighting for her life, literally.
00:03:09
alyssa
um So it was a lot. It was a lot for her.
00:03:11
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:03:12
alyssa
From Lily chapter one, she she was already on the edge.
00:03:12
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:03:15
alyssa
um So it wouldn't take much to push her off.
00:03:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. And do you feel that, you know, these these actors really conveyed that messaging?
00:03:24
alyssa
Oh yeah.
00:03:24
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I know we talked about Amy Adams a lot in the in the last episode, but.
00:03:27
alyssa
Fangirls. She deserves it. Like,
00:03:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:03:30
alyssa
i I do think that Amy Adams, um I'm a huge film buff and show but like show person, as you've I'm sure you've heard, but Amy Adams to me, um oh, maybe this is another book to adaptation you can definitely talk about, Annihilation, um which is like a sci-fi horror.
00:03:45
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Hmm.
00:03:46
alyssa
um But it's another thing about like womanhood and grief and mental health and the horror of it in some ways. Yeah. But Natalie Portman also did another role similar to Amy Adams in this show, um where she goes into an environment that is not safe for her, knowing it's not safe for her, seeking answers, seeking closure, seeking understanding.
00:03:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:04:07
alyssa
um And a beast is preying on her.
00:04:08
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hu
00:04:10
alyssa
Same thing with Sharp Objects. Amy Adams comes into a situation, Camille comes into a situation knowing it's not
Family Dynamics: Camille's Relationship with Mother and Sister
00:04:15
alyssa
safe. known as there's a killer in her midst, um but she is seeking answers and she is on, in a lot of ways, looking back into her past and the past rears its ugly head and the killer is not far away as we know.
00:04:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Mm hmm. So let's talk about her relationships with her mother and Richard um and her sister and how these characters or I'm sorry, how these actors portrayed these relationships from the story and how they brought them to the screen.
00:04:37
alyssa
ah yeah. Okay.
00:04:42
alyssa
like
00:04:47
alyssa
In a lot of ways, I feel like her mother from the book to the show, in like essence, beautiful transition. The mom from the the book to the show, I feel like her acting wasn't the right actor, but I enjoyed her acting on the show.
00:04:59
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hu
00:05:01
alyssa
Just her mannerisms and the way she spoke to her in comparison to the way that she spoke to her younger daughter was divine. Because the way she spoke to her younger daughter, there was still this freshness, this love, this active appreciation.
00:05:13
alyssa
Whereas with Camille, I feel like she was a lot more exasperated and a lot more like she only liked her when she could mess with her or control her.
00:05:20
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. And there's a scene in the later episode or where, oh, actually it's when, Camille has realized that she has Munchausen's by proxy and she's protecting Emma because she – the mom is bringing Emma upstairs and she's like, no, no, I want cake.
00:05:34
alyssa
Mm-hmm.
00:05:43
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um I don't want to go upstairs because I know you're going to poison me.
00:05:46
alyssa
That's right.
00:05:46
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um So Camille is like, oh, my stomach. Mom, mama, mama, help me. And she immediately – Dismisses Emma and grabs Camille um and starts babying her.
00:06:01
alyssa
This terrified me so much. Um, that this is also set ah in the South. So that concept of like, um ah unless I have family who are Southern.
00:06:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hmm.
00:06:10
alyssa
So this is a concept I do understand where it's like mother knows best. um And also that concept of like, ah let me get all the fixings for you.
00:06:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm hmm.
00:06:17
alyssa
Let me run you a bath. Like, let me, all these things, this concept of like, no matter how old you get, your mother can still care for you and you,
00:06:24
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes.
00:06:25
alyssa
You can only say so much. You have to allow her to some extent.
00:06:27
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Uh-huh.
00:06:27
alyssa
um And I see this in a lot of Southern households. I have a lot of friends who whose moms to this day are very much like, come, don't go on the road, sleep here. Let me cook for you. And you don't question it because it's a mom. It's ah it's a loving school mom.
00:06:37
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:06:39
alyssa
um But in this situation, what was incredibly spooky was that by her saying, mama, like
Southern Family Caregiving and Control Dynamics
00:06:44
alyssa
bring that back. like Some people transition to sort of calling their dads like daddy when you're a child. You call them dad or you call them a father as a woman.
00:06:49
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yep.
00:06:51
alyssa
the way she was able to tap into that like youthful young side of herself in the same house she lost her other sister to me that was the spookiest thing is that like her old her other sister was a ah I always felt her presence in the book and in the show and she never left my mind that you had another sister um so if you kind of follow this path with your mom that's what's going to end up happening to you that was like all I could think about was like she'll do the same thing to you you know
00:06:59
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:07:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:07:20
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, in the show you said that she never left your mind, the sister.
00:07:23
alyssa
Yeah.
00:07:23
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And the show did a really great job of reminding you of her with all these little flashbacks.
00:07:28
alyssa
Mm-hmm.
00:07:29
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And we mentioned it in the last episode where amy um Camille would remember something in it. Like she would feel the word that she had carved into her body heat up.
00:07:38
alyssa
Absolutely.
00:07:39
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um And in the show, they did the little flashbacks and like her sister was in a lot of those flashbacks. So I think they did a really good job of making, you know, exactly what you said you were feeling during the book, um bringing that to life in the show.
00:07:49
alyssa
Mm.
00:07:52
alyssa
Even I think we also even have to consider for character development sake, um her younger sister never met the sister who passed away. She wasn't born yet. she has no concept of like what her mom's actions can do.
00:08:02
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:08:05
alyssa
she doesn't really understand that. Like, you know what mean?
00:08:07
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:08:07
alyssa
Like, of course she's the killer.
00:08:07
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:08:09
alyssa
So she understands death. She understands the ending of a life, but I don't think she really understood like within your family, your mom has already done this to another daughter. know what I mean?
00:08:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:08:19
alyssa
Like she's already like you, like, she gave birth to you to do this all
Family Power Plays: Amma's Manipulation
00:08:24
alyssa
over again. Like it, it, you're not the first, you won't the last.
00:08:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, and she has this sense of I need to be better than her.
00:08:30
alyssa
hey
00:08:32
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And so even if she thinks, even if she realizes that her mom did kill her, she needs to survive because she needs to be better.
00:08:37
alyssa
Oh yeah.
00:08:41
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:08:41
alyssa
Right. That, that competitiveness, even like, um, there's a shot in the film where when Amy Adams finds her sister's dollhouse,
00:08:44
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:08:52
alyssa
Her sister's in the doorway. Like that girl had a whole act.
00:08:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:08:56
alyssa
Like she was going to keep acting like, you know, the sweet, like mom was doing this to me and I had to get out you saved me. Now we can have a whole life together. She was to keep acting like that.
00:09:06
alyssa
um
00:09:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. But the moment Camille showed attention to someone else, because you see, yeah, well, you see the blanket that the other girl had made was in the trash.
00:09:07
alyssa
The moment she said, oh my God. Seeing her in the doorway. Mm-hmm.
00:09:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And so she was like, no, like, I'm not having that in my dollhouse. And then she ended up missing.
00:09:22
alyssa
girl even just like the the teeth in the floor mirroring her mom's white floor like like that there was something about like in a way I think she was a little bit obsessed with her mom like just that sense of like I know you and you're mine
00:09:24
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Oh, Emma. Yeah.
00:09:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:09:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah. And making her happy. Obsessed with making her happy. Yeah.
00:09:43
alyssa
I was like, oh my God.
00:09:43
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:09:44
alyssa
like i yeah yes Like, yes, you know your mother and like you, some people are very close to their moms and they're almost like best friends. As we referenced previously, like a Gilmore Girls, like that perfect relationship.
00:09:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:09:55
alyssa
But like, even in Gilmore Girls, like they had problems, they had conflicts. Like there was definitely a control issue um for the goalies who know
00:09:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:10:03
alyssa
Stanford. And long story short, Harvard. There was a control issue. um But for me, I'm like, I look at the actors and the way they played these characters and ah all of them were unlikable. Camille, she had problems, yes.
00:10:16
alyssa
But she, I still cared about her. um
00:10:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:10:19
alyssa
But everyone else, I did not like. Like, only Camille and her boss. I did not like anyone else. Oh, and then the detective. But that that was it.
00:10:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I was going to say, did you not like Richard?
00:10:28
alyssa
He was it. He was all, um yes.
00:10:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
but Okay. How do we feel about how Richard in the show?
00:10:32
alyssa
um All. All.
00:10:35
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I don't think makes it as evident as the book did.
00:10:37
alyssa
Yeah.
00:10:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
But once he saw the scars, he was he was done with her.
00:10:42
alyssa
hello
00:10:42
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um And again, you saw him react
Vulnerability and Rejection: Richard's Reaction to Scars
00:10:45
Sarah-Daye McDougall
to that in the show. But I think the book really lays it out clearer than the show did that he like she never heard from him again after that.
00:10:46
alyssa
yeah
00:10:53
alyssa
I also think that like a lot of people don't know how to respond to individuals when they share super dark stuff or super personal stuff from their past.
00:10:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Sure. Mm-hmm.
00:11:02
alyssa
A lot of people freeze and think like this is too much and they run away, you know? And and and people have the right to say, you know what, this is this is a lot for me. I don't think I have the emotional bandwidth to to navigate this with you.
00:11:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:11:11
alyssa
That's mature to communicate. i don't I don't have the emotional bandwidth to navigate this. In the book and in the show, it broke my heart that she already had a band of issues. I think losing her sister, i think, um, feeling lonely, feeling unlovable, thinking her scars were going to deter anyone from her, even wanting to keep her clothes on during intimacy.
00:11:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:11:28
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:11:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:11:33
alyssa
It was just, there were certain things where I was like, I don't think she's been shown like unconditional love without pain.
00:11:40
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:11:40
alyssa
Um, and it broke my heart because the first person who loves you is your parents,
Pain, Womanhood, and Generational Struggles
00:11:45
alyssa
you know?
00:11:45
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:11:45
alyssa
So imagine if you don't get that from your parents, you just, you spend your life seeking it in other places. Um,
00:11:50
Sarah-Daye McDougall
ah yeah
00:11:50
alyssa
yeah So it's the that's the first heartbreak, like the first cut. And, ooh, symbolism. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up.
00:11:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
her
00:11:58
alyssa
Anyway, so long story short, i um I felt for Camille because I feel like even though a I don't think she was going into the into the situation with him, like, oh we're going to fall in love. I do think she was hopeful, maybe.
00:12:12
alyssa
um A good looking guy, you know, attention, maybe this could be fulfilling of a need right now.
00:12:12
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:12:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Great.
00:12:18
alyssa
And it it broke my heart, even just seeing like her sister manipulating her. I don't think that they had like a wholesome, beautiful relationship. It felt, even that felt like a game, you know?
00:12:28
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:12:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah well and going back to richard and her attraction to him not only is he a good looking guy but he also can see through the bullshit the town is presenting you know and like so she can see too and she's escaped that and he so they kind of connect on this this town is wild you know and like they are not living in reality basically and um
00:12:31
alyssa
oh. oh
00:12:41
alyssa
Yeah, he's self-aware.
00:12:54
alyssa
Yeah.
00:12:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
For her, you know, she has um but the curries, um but to lose that only other, like, friend she really formed was, was like you said, heartbreaking.
00:13:01
alyssa
Yeah.
00:13:08
alyssa
I think that this entire story is about pain and how some people face it, how some people bury it.
00:13:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:13:14
alyssa
It's about girlhood, which inherently, like, you can even think about, like, like periods. The first thing you go into womanhood is with pain. Like you experience, like, this is what we all go through.
00:13:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Ugh.
00:13:24
alyssa
This is what we all go through, right? This is part of it. You lose a sense of, um yeah like, what is it? Innocence, you know, like now you're aware, like, oh, well, we all bleed.
00:13:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:13:33
alyssa
And under these pretty dresses, like we all do this and we all do that. um And I think that that's like the gnarly part of girlhood that yes, it's natural. Anger is natural. rage is natural.
00:13:44
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:13:45
alyssa
know mean? Like ah having resentment is not like every, a lot of people feel these things. It's how you approach it and how you navigate it That
Control and Entrapment: Camille's Mother vs. Coraline's Mother
00:13:53
alyssa
matters. Like that you can't, you can't unalive people cause you need attention.
00:13:54
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:13:57
alyssa
Like, you know um but it's one of those things where it's like, if you're not told this is wrong, if you never experienced like upfront, like this is wrong, this is right. How are you supposed to know? um so that's why for me, I'm like,
00:14:10
alyssa
I look at Camille and I feel like she had so much in guilt and like suffering. She just, she took what she felt on the inside and put it on the outside and she only punished herself.
00:14:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hu
00:14:20
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:14:20
alyssa
But the mom, I feel like her mother, like she just enjoyed control and like, oh, she wanted to keep her daughters like,
00:14:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah.
00:14:30
alyssa
sick and like weak so she could like just get to them like a spider and i just i can't help but compare her to like the mother from coralline like that sense of like control you know um and i think that's the scariest thing is coralline like the eyes weren't the scariest thing to me the scariest thing was that sense of like you're trapped in this world your mom built for you like you cannot leave that was the scariest thing you know the father in that is complicit
00:14:35
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oof.
00:14:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
so Yeah.
00:14:49
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
00:14:55
alyssa
Even the father in that is complicit. Silence is, you're complicit, you know?
00:14:57
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:59
alyssa
He's a bystander.
00:14:59
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:00
alyssa
The father in this is a bystander. Like, i um oh, the parallels. Tell me I'm wrong. Like, it just, yes.
00:15:07
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oops. um
00:15:11
alyssa
No, it's it's technical difficulties. Oh, yes.
00:15:13
Sarah-Daye McDougall
ah
00:15:13
alyssa
um
00:15:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
So um going so when i when I break down part two of our adaptations, I do you know the key plot points.
00:15:14
alyssa
Yeah.
00:15:19
alyssa
Mm-hmm.
00:15:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And like I said earlier, we're moving the character arcs to this episode because I feel like most of the book, before we get to kind of like the last third of the book, is really just learning about these characters and seeing them interact together.
00:15:29
alyssa
yeah
00:15:35
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And the murder mystery is is ongoing. you know That's in the background. But – you know we're getting through We're getting to know these characters and seeing these relationships play out and seeing the relationship between Camille and her mother and her sister.
John Keane as a Suspect: Societal Biases
00:15:50
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um But the first real big thing that happens is John Keane kind of becomes a suspect.
00:15:58
alyssa
oh
00:15:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um And then, the you know, all the gossip and his girlfriend wanting to be in the newspaper and just seeing her name in print.
00:16:06
alyssa
Red herring.
00:16:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um How did you think about um all of that kind of from page to screen and and the the actor for John Keene, which i think I wrote that down is Taylor John Smith.
00:16:17
alyssa
I think this concept of like the Boo Radley character we're like you blame the person who looks the shadiest, you blame the person on the edge of the town.
00:16:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh.
00:16:24
alyssa
Like you just kind of find
00:16:25
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm hmm.
00:16:27
alyssa
it sounds horrible, but you find someone you can pin it all on who looks who looks bad, like societally, like, oh, he was an older man and there younger girl, he was in the area. And like, it's this sense of like, you have to find someone because you can't blame the person you know it is.
00:16:42
alyssa
Like, how are you going to explain that thiss this as 14 year old girl?
00:16:42
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:16:44
alyssa
How you gonna explain like, you know, you have to have proof versus you already have this preconceived notion of what a predator, of what a killer is. People rarely think, and this is sexist, but people rarely think that women are capable.
00:16:51
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:16:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, and they talked about that in the book a lot, that they just don't think that a woman could do this.
00:16:56
alyssa
neith We are capable.
00:17:00
alyssa
i What blows my mind is that's why so many criminals who may be women get away with these crimes because no one considers.
00:17:05
Sarah-Daye McDougall
No,
00:17:07
alyssa
yeah And that's what also breaks my heart is that as the mom, no one was was going to look for her. Like no one was going to look at her, you know, a pillar of the community.
00:17:11
Sarah-Daye McDougall
no. no
00:17:14
alyssa
You know, even we can even put class, class, race, um consideration of, you know, well, she's a mother and she would never do that.
00:17:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
right
00:17:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, in bringing up class, that brings up a really good point that before we even get to John Keene, they're looking at Nash, who is the first little girl's father.
00:17:23
alyssa
hmm.
00:17:28
alyssa
Yeah.
00:17:31
alyssa
yeah
00:17:32
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um And then John Keene is the second little girl who who disappears, her brother. And they describe the house. um Camille describes the house. And like you can just see a clear difference between their houses and Camille's mother's house.
00:17:45
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:17:45
alyssa
ah Even just this concept of this this, you know, your house is a reflection of you, your car is a reflection of you, your clothes are a reflection of you. If you see a beautiful house and you see a Tesla and you see a woman and her beautiful daughter and her happy husband, you don't think that there's abuse.
00:18:01
alyssa
You think, oh, well, I would know.
00:18:02
Sarah-Daye McDougall
ah
00:18:04
alyssa
You don't know. Behind closed doors, how would you know?
00:18:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
You don't know what happens behind closed doors. Yeah.
00:18:07
alyssa
Exactly. Even if you see like a lower income household or if you see like, well, they have like grass in their front yard that hasn't been mowed in months and, you know, their son is you know, looks dirty.
00:18:18
alyssa
What if he just plays outside? you You have these preconceived notions and this discrimination inherently. You pin things like they were pinning things on people. who were already grieving, like the fathers in the story, like people may not cry in your face, but they may be grieving in private.
00:18:34
alyssa
And then you see the mother in comparison, lost a daughter to her own actions, and you don't really see her grief at all. You know i mean? No tears, no pain, no, none of that.
00:18:40
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I
00:18:42
alyssa
Like she didn't learn anything from that experience or try to get help.
00:18:46
Sarah-Daye McDougall
know.
00:18:46
alyssa
It was things like that in the story that was, that was the most monstrous part to me was this concept of like indifference. The opposite of love is indifference, you know? So I, and I, I do think that like, even having an eyewitness say, I saw a woman, even though he's a child,
Police Oversight and Child's Testimony
00:19:04
alyssa
no one listened to him.
00:19:04
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I know. i know
00:19:05
alyssa
I was, I was like, okay, can we, can we, can we hear the kid? What do you mean saw a woman? Who? It's a small town. Who did you see? Like, show him pictures, show him something, you know?
00:19:12
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:15
alyssa
um Also like not considering that the way that the girls' bodies were found in the story um did no one question who, like, where they saw them last? Like...
00:19:27
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:19:27
alyssa
I have so many questions. I have so many thoughts. Like you're missing all these, like my textbooks say you're supposed to, you know, do A, B and Obviously life is not like that, but like in my head, I'm like, there's ah there's a, there's a ah chain of series of events that have to occur.
00:19:40
alyssa
And that's where this small town bullshit police force, you see how bad they are.
00:19:44
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:19:45
alyssa
You know, I'm not saying big city ones are better. I'm just saying that like, it was things like that that made me incredibly angry and frustrated. and um i was I kept saying Anora in my mind, it's Adora.
00:19:58
alyssa
um When I was reading the book, I'm like, Anora, no, but it's Adora.
00:19:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Adora.
00:20:01
alyssa
But um I did make a note where I was like, um the major themes in the book as Ama, I'm sorry if I say your name wrong, um this contract of like sickness, this concept of teeth, it made me think of like baby teeth.
00:20:19
alyssa
Like the the teeth could even symbolize like going from girlhood to adulthood.
00:20:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
her
00:20:23
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:20:23
alyssa
In that sense of like, I will take away your youth. I will take away your teeth. Like you can't speak anymore. Like that insane amount of pain.
00:20:28
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:20:29
alyssa
So I don't know.
00:20:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
ah
00:20:30
alyssa
There was little things where I was like, oh, that's a lot. Oh, that's a lot. so yes, i thought it was interesting.
00:20:35
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:20:37
alyssa
And also I found that quote I referenced before that I was like, that made me want to read the book all that time ago.
00:20:37
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. yeah
00:20:41
alyssa
i actually did end finding it.
00:20:43
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, good. What was it?
00:20:43
alyssa
oh yes. The quote is, i love images and photos, so I screenshotted it, but it was, sometimes I think illness sits inside every woman waiting for the right moment to bloom.
00:20:55
alyssa
um I have known so many sick women all my life, women with chronic pain, with ever gastrointestinal diseases, women with conditions, men, sure, they have bone snaps, they have back aches, they have surgery or two, yank out a tonsil, insert a tiny plastic hip, women get consumed.
00:21:13
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um
00:21:13
alyssa
There was something about that quote.
00:21:13
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Wow.
00:21:15
alyssa
When I first saw that in high school, I was like, and I was, you know, you're you're in high school, your body's changing. You get your cycle, things like that. Hearing my mom say you're in pain and for the and until you hit a certain age, you will continue to be in pain. This is just part of life.
00:21:31
alyssa
Terrified me. But this concept of like my mom knew the whole time and she's telling me now as it's happening.
00:21:32
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:21:35
alyssa
um But isn't that spooky? The concept of you to tell your children, you will always be in pain. Like you will take pills and you will do this and you will do that.
00:21:41
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:21:43
alyssa
to manage this pain. But until you exit this part of your life, you will be in pain and I cannot help you.
00:21:45
Sarah-Daye McDougall
ah
00:21:48
alyssa
This is the first moment you're in pain and mom can't fix it.
00:21:51
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:21:52
alyssa
And this is part of womanhood. That is terrifying. you know So it's spooky. You know what mean? You think your parents can fix all and you have faith.
00:21:57
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, it is I know. Yeah. Right.
00:22:01
alyssa
It's scary. So imagine your mom saying like, you know let me run you a bath, come upstairs with me.
Munchausen's by Proxy Discovery
00:22:07
alyssa
How are you supposed to know what she's doing?
00:22:09
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:22:10
alyssa
um Yeah, spooky.
00:22:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:13
alyssa
Very spooky.
00:22:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um Well, that brings us to the discovery of the Munchausens by proxy and Camille and Richard talking about like coming together and and talking about this and then she has to go back to her house. So um walk me through your thoughts on how you thought the show brought that to life on the screen.
00:22:33
alyssa
Oh, um how can I describe this thought being mean? Okay, so, okay, so I feel like Between seeing the mom, know to describe this because i don't did we I don't think we saw her in the past like glimpses.
00:22:49
alyssa
I think we saw a lot of her sister in flashbacks, if I remember correctly.
00:22:52
Sarah-Daye McDougall
right yeah
00:22:53
alyssa
But the sense of her actions towards making the girls sick seeing flashbacks of the mom with the girls who died i don't i think it was in the book where like you would see flashbacks of her she was the one hanging out with the girls and they come to the house to see um ama seeing how all these moments connected where the mom had she had cause like she had them there she had access to the resources to make them sick um and you later see camille
00:23:05
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hu
00:23:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:23:19
alyssa
experiencing that as an adult and her tolerance. I didn't consider this, her physical tolerance that she built up because her mom made her sick for so long. How many drugs, how many things would she have to take to be able to get sick on the level she was when she was a teenager?
00:23:32
alyssa
She would have to take quite a bit, you know, including also her alcoholka um alcoholism.
00:23:33
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:23:37
alyssa
So I think for me, like I couldn't stop getting away from like the themes in that because Camille has built up such a tolerance versus her sister has also built up a tolerance.
00:23:42
Sarah-Daye McDougall
her
00:23:48
alyssa
it terrified me that the mom knew she would had to give them quite a bit. know what mean?
00:23:52
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:23:52
alyssa
to To make them sick, like to the level I assumed she was trying to go for.
00:23:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:23:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:23:56
alyssa
So from the book to the film, or the book to the show, i think it's very important to consider the mom was a well aware of what she was doing both times.
00:24:05
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:24:05
alyssa
um Oh, it was scares me is like that. That's cause what if they get sick and they don't get better? What if they aren't alive in your house? What are you going to do? Like there was never a consideration for that in the story, which made it even more dangerous.
00:24:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:24:19
alyssa
It's a small town.
00:24:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:24:19
alyssa
They're going to see you deposing the body like, girl, what are you doing?
00:24:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:24:23
alyssa
Oh, I don't know. It scared me.
00:24:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. And we talked a little bit um in the last episode, I believe, about um how Camille getting home and eating that dinner and then taking over for her sister, like pretending that she was sick so she would get the brunt of the medicine.
00:24:42
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um i just thought everybody really acted that scene really, really well. And like, you know, as we're getting to the climax of the story here.
00:24:50
alyssa
i can't even the climate even the end seeing ama like pushing the girl like the what is it like the chain link fence like seeing her like
00:24:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:25:02
alyssa
the look on that actress's face,
Ama's Jealousy and Unhealthy Relationships
00:25:04
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:25:05
alyssa
for me, like the imagery in my mind of the teeth pulling and the dollhouse is the images I think of most when I think about this book.
00:25:12
alyssa
Is the dollhouse, is the red sweater from the very beginning, is that is just Camille's like,
00:25:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:25:19
alyssa
the words on her body, all of that, it terrified me. um But yes, I think that the the moment where she puts herself in front of her sister in order to protect her, metaphorically.
00:25:29
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:25:29
alyssa
And that might've been the first time that Alma's ever seen anyone love her, like love her, like sacrificing her right.
00:25:34
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. Yeah. I did. I almost the actress that played Ama is like, I almost is like, is she appreciating that she's taking the brunt or is she jealous that she's getting the attention now?
00:25:50
alyssa
good
00:25:51
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And you, you kind of see what she was.
00:25:51
alyssa
I'm going vote jealous. I'm going to vote jealous.
00:25:54
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:55
alyssa
Yeah, I'm going to vote jealous.
00:25:55
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:25:56
alyssa
Yeah. Seeing her mom, the cops come to get the mom.
00:25:57
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:25:59
alyssa
And i don't I don't think she knows how to live without this cycle of manipulation.
00:26:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:26:07
alyssa
And if her mom can't give her attention now, who will? Will she have to find new victims? Like, it would change her, like, motive too. Like it it was just one of those things where I'm like i don't think she really knows who she is without her mom.
00:26:20
Sarah-Daye McDougall
No, of course not.
00:26:20
alyssa
Like that fun, that fundamental but identity. She doesn't have it. Like she doesn't have a core self away from ah approval, that whole of love. I need it. I need it. I need it. She'll never have that fulfillment.
00:26:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:26:32
alyssa
It in a way is an addiction. She needs it. And without it, who are you? You know, she, she doesn't know. And that's heartbreaking.
00:26:41
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. And we see, we've talked about her being in the doorway, that end twist. So Adora has been locked up.
00:26:45
alyssa
Yeah.
00:26:47
Sarah-Daye McDougall
We think she's the murderer. She hasn't said she's not. Well, she has, she pled not guilty, but um we have talked about that. We think that she knew Amma was really doing it, but she's protecting her.
00:26:58
alyssa
I think so. Oh,
00:27:00
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And so the final twist is, Camille finds the teeth in the dollhouse and Ama's in the doorway and says, don't tell mama and cut to black credits run.
00:27:14
alyssa
God. I think that sense of don't tell mama, don't tell mom. I think it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a...
00:27:26
alyssa
two routes manipulation in a sense of don't tell her you know let me explain okay and then the second route to me which i think is more valid is that sense of you're still a child like you don't actually understand like the repercussions for what you've done like just the accusations that your mom could have done this which yes she made them sick and she fucked them up but she didn't kill him she didn't kill him she did kill another girl she never killed her yeah she killed her other daughter but she didn't kill these girls you know um her reputation will never recover
00:27:32
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:27:37
Sarah-Daye McDougall
who
00:27:47
Sarah-Daye McDougall
and her
00:27:49
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, she did kill. Yeah.
00:27:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:27:56
alyssa
what mean? If she went back to that town, she tried to move anywhere, she will her life is over, you know, in that sense.
00:27:57
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah.
00:28:01
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:28:01
alyssa
She can't rebuild it. um And then at least... For me, with her saying, like, don't tell don't tell mama, for me, I was like, you really don't understand, like, the level of the depths of what you've taken from these families.
00:28:16
alyssa
And, like, you took these girls' futures away from them because you were jealous. Like, that's such a ah a child, like, you only see so far. Like, you know, the forest from the trees. Like, you only see so much. um And that comes with time and maturity. But for me, that's the most scariest thing is that she had so much power.
00:28:32
alyssa
And she had these girls in an isolated state, in a weakened state.
00:28:36
Sarah-Daye McDougall
han
00:28:37
alyssa
Even the victims, like they just wanted a friend. They just wanted approval. And that that sense of girlhood, that sense of like, I just want to be loved. I just want to be seen. Like if you're not getting that from your home life,
00:28:47
alyssa
You may look for that in your romantic relationships. You may look for that in your friends.
00:28:49
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:28:51
alyssa
If you have a bad friend, if you have a bad boyfriend or girlfriend or partner, abuse can happen anywhere. That's the most terrifying thing for me. Like if for anyone who has children or siblings or nieces or nephews, your worst fear is them meeting someone who's horrible, you know?
00:29:05
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:29:07
alyssa
Like who takes and doesn't consider what that does for another person.
Cycle of Violence and Family Dysfunction Exposed
00:29:10
alyssa
Ama to me was the epitome of like, ah like a a parent's worst nightmare in the sense of like, you know, your kid just wanted a friend. She picked the wrong friend.
00:29:18
alyssa
Yeah.
00:29:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. And when she goes, don't tell mama, it's almost like
00:29:20
alyssa
and When she goes to know she's almost like she...
00:29:27
Sarah-Daye McDougall
she
00:29:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
It's not so much that she got caught by Camille. It's like she doesn't want her mom to know. Even though I think she knows. Adora knows she was killing the girls. Like you we keep talking about this cycle.
00:29:41
alyssa
She knows.
00:29:43
Sarah-Daye McDougall
You know. But like her first thought is don't tell mama. Like I don't want to get in trouble with mama.
00:29:48
alyssa
Mm-hmm. Even the quote from the book, problems always start long before you really see them. Just that, like, I kind of kicked myself in the butt for not considering that, where I'm like, in The Grown Up, in Gone Girl, in Sharp Objects.
00:30:04
alyssa
Gillian Flynn really does present it from the very beginning, something's wrong here.
00:30:07
Sarah-Daye McDougall
oh
00:30:08
alyssa
You have to find out what's wrong.
00:30:09
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah right well that's the beauty of her stories right yeah
00:30:10
alyssa
um But you know from the very beginning, you know something's wrong. Yeah, you have a feeling in your gut because you don't listen to it. You don't listen to the warning. Something bad happens. We knew there was a killer in that town.
00:30:22
alyssa
We just didn't know who, you know?
00:30:23
Sarah-Daye McDougall
right
00:30:24
alyssa
And Camille does not want to go home. Why doesn't she want to go home? um All of these things, I think, I think the only difference between Ama and Camille is time You what mean?
00:30:36
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:30:36
alyssa
Camille was there for so long and she lost her sister and she was so isolated. She was able to get out, but you know we saw without her boss's support, she probably would have been in an even a worse state.
00:30:46
alyssa
Her sister, the only difference is time. You know?
00:30:49
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, and I think also, though, she was able to get out, Camille was, because her little sister was more willing to – or not more willing, but – well, yeah, more willing to listen to her her mother than Camille was.
00:31:01
alyssa
She played into it. 100%.
00:31:04
alyssa
be said
00:31:05
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Like, Camille was very argumentative, but she didn't waste time with Camille because she had another child to – manipulate and Ama didn't have like that she was alone.
00:31:14
alyssa
Oh, yeah.
00:31:17
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And i think that's one of the things that Camille really feels guilty about is that she wasn't there for Ama in the way that she was for her other sister.
00:31:22
alyssa
Yeah.
00:31:25
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And um well, I guess she wasn't there for either one of them at the end of the day.
00:31:26
alyssa
Yeah. But had Camille been there, she... That's true. That's true. But even her other sister, we see that, like, if the mom is focusing all her attention on the other sister, making her sick, you know, eventually leading to her death.
00:31:40
alyssa
And then Ama was there alone as well. um i i guess i would make Camille the middle sister at that point. But... um Camille not being there was integral to her being able to combat her mom and to be able to argue and say, you know what?
00:31:53
alyssa
You're upset. You don't like my opinion, but I'm a fucking adult. Like in that sense, she was able to move away and have a sense of self. Ama didn't have that. And that, it just feeds into the story.
00:32:02
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:32:04
alyssa
Was she already a killer from day one or did she become a killer because of her mom? Like, you know, um and also had, what if Ama was a loving, wonderful mom?
00:32:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:32:15
alyssa
would would her daughter have still become what she did? Like, these girls did not have to die.
00:32:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
No.
00:32:20
alyssa
They didn't.
00:32:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
No.
00:32:21
alyssa
um But her jealousy led to that. um And I do think her mom played a role. just Just the sense her mom was in the forest with that girl. Why? Like, you know, she was she there to spend time with her alone?
00:32:34
alyssa
but she letting her away from her home? Like, I think her mom was also an active participant, maybe not in the murders, but I don't know.
00:32:42
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, yeah, I mean, like weve we've talked about how we thought it was a cycle. Like she brought the girls in to punish Emma for his thinking out.
00:32:48
alyssa
Absolutely.
00:32:48
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Emma kills the girls. She finds a new girl, you know, so I think.
00:32:49
alyssa
Yes. Yes. And she was a bully. She was kind of a bully. She wasn't a nice person.
00:32:55
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Emma, this is.
00:32:56
alyssa
Yeah, she was not nice.
00:32:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:32:56
alyssa
i don't.
00:32:57
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, no, no.
00:32:57
alyssa
She was kind of, she was mean. Like she was mean, you know, her mom was mean, never got punished.
00:32:58
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, she was. Yeah.
00:33:02
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah. Generational trauma.
00:33:03
alyssa
Yeah. So her daughter eventually becomes mean.
00:33:04
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yep.
00:33:05
alyssa
And I was like, oh, it's like Serena, like Regina George, but like serial killer Regina George.
00:33:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. Yeah.
00:33:11
alyssa
Yeah, it was definitely like that.
00:33:12
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:33:13
alyssa
It was spooky, you know? um Yeah. I think that's so scary. Like, oh.
00:33:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, let's wrap our conversation up by talking.
00:33:20
alyssa
Okay.
00:33:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Well, we have, let's talk about what we think was better. um The, the book or the show, or, you
Adaptation Pacing: Book vs. Show
00:33:28
alyssa
Mm. Ooh.
00:33:28
Sarah-Daye McDougall
know, did they both succeed in their own ways, but then we will wrap up our show with bookmarked moments, but let's get into what medium did you think did the story justice better?
00:33:34
alyssa
Oh.
00:33:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Okay.
00:33:38
alyssa
I think I'm going to have to give it to the show just because I think that the pacing was a little bit, the book for me near the middle dragged a little bit.
00:33:48
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes.
00:33:48
alyssa
Like, I think this could, I think this could have been a novella. I think it could, I think it could have been similar to the grownup where it was like 75 pages. Yeah.
00:33:54
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm
00:33:54
alyssa
I think, I think it could have been a shorter book per se um But I also think that at least in the show, I enjoyed the pacing. I enjoyed the character development for Camille
00:34:01
Sarah-Daye McDougall
hmm.
00:34:03
alyssa
I also really liked um the cinematography and the way everything looked.
00:34:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes.
00:34:07
alyssa
It looked grimy and it it felt claustrophobic. It felt like I live in Florida. So like the humidity and like that, like sweaty, like heavy, wet heat.
00:34:16
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:34:16
alyssa
I felt that in the show.
00:34:17
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. No, the cinematography was amazing.
00:34:18
alyssa
And I was like, This is great.
00:34:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:34:20
alyssa
I was, this is fantastic. um Everyone looks sweaty and like they're wearing makeup and it's, it's like coming off. And I love that like grindiness.
00:34:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:34:28
alyssa
So I, I enjoy it. Even the shot where, um, uh, Amma is like on a, is she like on roller skates or on a bike? And she's like, yeah, she's going through the darkness and stuff.
00:34:35
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Rollerblades, yeah.
00:34:37
alyssa
Like you're a teen. You don't think about shit. You know, you're just, it's things like that where I'm like, oh, this feels like summertime.
00:34:44
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:34:44
alyssa
it feels like like ah like a dark, bad summer, you know? So yeah, I like i enjoyed the show quite a bit.
00:34:49
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Definitely.
00:34:50
alyssa
um And I liked the pacing. So yeah.
00:34:52
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, i I know.
00:34:52
alyssa
What about you?
00:34:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I think I agree 100% with what you're saying is that the show did a really good job with the pacing because it does lag a little bit in the middle of the book. But the show is able to show us different perspectives. Like the book is from Camille's perspective. So the show being able to show us more of what's happening the when Camille's not in the room is how we can like speed that up a little bit.
00:35:15
alyssa
I agree.
00:35:15
Sarah-Daye McDougall
So, yeah, I agree with you. The show is really good. um The only thing I would say, and I mentioned it before, is go watch the show, but read the epilogue from the book.
00:35:18
alyssa
e
00:35:24
alyssa
It would have been nice to have closure. um
00:35:26
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Mm-hmm.
00:35:27
alyssa
But I don't mind that I didn't get it in the show. Just because um i think I still remember that end of the book. But it would have nice to get an epilogue. Actually, I don't lie.
00:35:40
alyssa
ah There's something about it being ending ending on that moment of don't tell mama. Yes, iconic in that, you know, but like, it would have been kind of nice to see Ama get some help.
00:35:47
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes.
00:35:51
alyssa
Like if there have been a change, it would have been nice to see her, to see Camille get therapy and to see Ama, you know, repercussions for her actions, but also maybe see her get therapy as well.
00:35:52
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes.
00:35:57
Sarah-Daye McDougall
come on
00:36:02
alyssa
you know I wanted the both girls to get some help.
00:36:03
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:36:05
alyssa
So yeah.
00:36:05
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, definitely.
Iconic Show Moments and Plot Twists
00:36:07
Sarah-Daye McDougall
All right.
00:36:07
alyssa
Yeah.
00:36:07
Sarah-Daye McDougall
So bookmarked moments is when we talk about the moment we liked best about the adaptation, what the, like what moment the adaptation did best, what moment the adaptation could have done better.
00:36:09
alyssa
Yes.
00:36:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And then what is the most memorable moment of the book or the adaptation?
00:36:24
alyssa
Okay.
00:36:26
alyssa
Ooh. All right. So my favorite moment from the show let just see on screen, um I think is going to have to be finally putting a face to the previous sister because I couldn't imagine her in my mind.
00:36:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Ah, okay.
00:36:39
alyssa
um So I think seeing...
00:36:40
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Interesting.
00:36:41
alyssa
seeing the room that Camille previously lived in, being able to see Ama and how she would change her appearance with her mom versus out in the world.
00:36:52
alyssa
um And then I also, I did want to see a bit of her rage. I don't think I got to see that as much in the book to see Ama's like, kind of how she committed the crimes. i wanted to i wanted to I wanted to see her switch from like that sweet feminine to that darkness.
00:37:07
alyssa
And that was amazing. For me, the last shot, even though it was spooky, i kind of needed it. I needed to see her be ah aggressive. um
00:37:15
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yes
00:37:15
alyssa
So that might've been like my most iconic moment was that, oh my God moment, the dollhouse. um Cause I, yeah, I could see it in my mind.
00:37:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah and i'm gonna say the dollhouse too only because when i first read that the teeth were the floor like i couldn't imagine it didn't dawn on me that they would be
00:37:22
alyssa
it was great seeing it on screen.
00:37:33
Sarah-Daye McDougall
like upright. Like was thinking they were sideways. I'm like, how did you not see that they were teeth? But then when they displayed the dollhouse and I could see they were like stacked in you know, upright, like, okay, now I can understand.
00:37:38
alyssa
Oh, man.
00:37:43
alyssa
Oh, God. Yeah.
00:37:46
Sarah-Daye McDougall
So seeing the dollhouse come to life was definitely probably my, um, what I liked best about the adaptation. But I mean, again, there's so many good things about this adaptation.
00:37:52
alyssa
Yeah.
00:37:56
alyssa
Dude, I also think of, like, a book moment.
00:37:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Um,
00:37:58
alyssa
I think I would have to say, like, something about Camille seeing the house again after all those years. Like, her describing how it looks now. um there's something about having to know that she had to go back and like that mystery of why she didn't want to go back.
00:38:15
alyssa
I liked how you got to see even like, i don't know why this sticks to my head so much, but that the way she describes like her red sweater from chapter one and like how it doesn't fit anymore and it's itchy. And it's just like, there's something about like, I could feel her,
00:38:29
alyssa
uncomfortable like she was in her skin um and i liked how that transitioned onto the screen so well but i i do think the dollhouse from book and into the show is so infamous to me same thing with like gone girl where it's like um the crime scene being the house and the husband
00:38:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
Impactful Book Moments and Symbolism
00:38:47
alyssa
being like i didn't kill my wife the repetition of that and the impact of the media and gone girl this for me is like the dollhouse and the impact of girlhood the grown-up would definitely be um
00:38:47
Sarah-Daye McDougall
yeah
00:38:51
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:38:58
alyssa
ah what is it? Like that this concept of like the books, the books and a business card. There's certain images that pop into your head when you think of a book, certain moments where you're like, oh, that is quite important, small but important teeth in a dollhouse, you know, um a newscast and a husband.
00:39:18
alyssa
you don't You don't think those things and think scary, but you put them all together in a book and you think, oh, that's terrifying.
00:39:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:39:24
alyssa
um But yes, yeah, very, very spooky.
00:39:25
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. Definitely.
00:39:27
alyssa
So yes,
00:39:27
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Okay. What do you think that the adaptation could have done better?
00:39:31
alyssa
o Okay, so I think the adaptation could have done better is to is showing more about um her mother's, I would have liked to see clips maybe of her mom remembering her childhood or maybe seeing like a young Camille and like seeing like, how do i describe it?
00:39:43
Sarah-Daye McDougall
oh yeah. Yeah.
00:39:49
alyssa
It would have been nice to see her happy so that it could contrast seeing her at this point because it was so bleak.
00:39:52
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah. Well, we did open the show with them rollerblading down the street, but I think that's really the only moment we get of them um in any type of bliss.
00:39:58
alyssa
That's true. of happiness. i I would have liked to see the epilogue in the show. If I could change one thing,
00:40:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
That's my moment. Yeah, no, that's my moment. I would have liked to see the epilogue.
00:40:10
alyssa
i think I would have liked to see the epilogue in the show. And if I had creative license, I think I might've wanted a time jump. Like I might've wanted a time jump just a little bit.
00:40:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes. Yes.
00:40:20
alyssa
So maybe like Camille,
00:40:20
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Just to see Camille happy and thriving.
00:40:22
alyssa
happy like it it would have been nice like to maybe even to see like with her scars it would have been nice to see her with like like rolling up her jacket you know mean something where it's like i don't give a fuck there's one those things where it's like what do you in the world you realize no one cares like it's your no one's judging you
00:40:24
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:40:31
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes. Oh my God. I love that. Yeah.
00:40:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Would you like to have seen her get back? Like, would you like her to reconnect with Richard or would you like her to be with somebody unknown man? Hmm.
00:40:44
alyssa
I think would liked to see her someone unknown. I would like to see her away from the town. You know what mean? If, if I had creative license and I was able to do whatever I wanted, I would have had the epilogue scene acted out and that I would have had a small, like, um,
00:40:58
alyssa
maybe like a voiceover of some sort, but having her reflect and be like, you know what, now that I have daughters and i'm I'm married, now I can see, you know, it would have, it would have been nice to kind of know that she built a life or even just seeing her like at the dining room table with like her boss and his wife and then seeing a guy sit next to her and, you know, you she looks different.
00:41:04
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, wow. Yes.
00:41:17
alyssa
Maybe her hair is curled or she's wearing a short sleeve, something like that.
00:41:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much.
00:41:21
alyssa
You mean?
Epilogue Desire and Reflection on Show's Ending
00:41:22
alyssa
It wouldn't have to be said.
00:41:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:41:22
alyssa
It should have been shown. i would have really appreciated that. Um, yeah,
00:41:25
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah.
00:41:26
alyssa
Yeah, it would have been even like a memorial for the girls who were lost. Like, I don't feel like I took a class for victimology.
00:41:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, yeah.
00:41:32
alyssa
And that was a big thing was that, like, most people think true crime. They only think of the crime. They don't consider the families. They don't consider the long term effects and the anxiety and the stress. um It would have been nice to see the fathers and the families get something.
00:41:47
alyssa
genuine, like maybe a garden maid or like something like that. And maybe the tooth, maybe the teeth are taken out of the dollhouse and like put in their graves, something like that, where like, it just, it didn't feel like the victims got much after the, the murder.
00:41:56
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:42:00
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Justice.
00:42:01
alyssa
It it didn't feel like they got any, any justice and and they would have been nice.
00:42:03
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:42:05
alyssa
You know, it was a tragedy for everyone.
00:42:06
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:42:07
alyssa
No one really won. No one wins, you know?
00:42:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:42:10
alyssa
um So it was just, it was a heavy read, but um some thrillers are, some thrillers just are heavy.
00:42:15
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, they are for sure.
00:42:17
alyssa
Yeah, i we were saying bubbly people.
00:42:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
All right. What?
00:42:19
alyssa
are Yeah, this is heavy. As a bubbly person, this was heavy as hell, but yeah.
00:42:20
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes, I know. Yeah, for sure. um Okay. so what is, let's, let's end the episode with the most memorable moment of the book or the show.
00:42:30
alyssa
Ooh, shit. I'm gonna be basic. I think I'm gonna have to say when she realizes that her mom has been making her sick and making her sister sick. I say sister, so she did both.
00:42:38
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:42:40
alyssa
um And I think realizing that Amma is the murderer and all the the moments kind of clicking together. I remember reading the book and I remember having to close it.
00:42:44
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right.
00:42:47
alyssa
And then had to reread it. Like reread what I just read because my brain could not conceive at the time.
00:42:50
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Right. Right, rightway right, right, right.
00:42:52
alyssa
um but yeah, think that's an aha moment.
00:42:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Because you think – I remember – couldn't remember. like it's like It's either Adora or Ama. These women are so odd.
00:42:59
alyssa
Mm-hmm.
00:43:01
Sarah-Daye McDougall
they One of them has to be the murderer. And then do you find out about the Munchausen's by proxy and you're like, okay, yeah, so Adora's the murderer and like you feel that sense of relief.
00:43:03
alyssa
Yeah.
00:43:10
Sarah-Daye McDougall
And then, nope, they pull one more twist on you and it's – Ama is actually the murderer. So, yeah, that's definitely a twist for –
00:43:17
alyssa
The woman in the woods, I knew it was one of them. White woman, white dress.
00:43:21
Sarah-Daye McDougall
whom
00:43:22
alyssa
I was like,
00:43:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah, of course.
00:43:23
alyssa
girl it's gotta be one y'all and Camille just got here so it can't be her so I was like it had to be one of them um I'm glad it wasn't a rando I will say that I will give Gillian that she never inserts a random character and like it's you the the murderer is always there from actually I think just realized that in all of her books I just realized that in all of her books the murderer is introduced within the first five chapters and
00:43:33
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yes.
00:43:50
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Hmm.
00:43:51
alyssa
I just realized that I haven't read Gone Girl, but I've read, um I've read, I think three other books by her, including the grownup.
00:43:53
Sarah-Daye McDougall
ah
00:43:59
Sarah-Daye McDougall
dark dark places okay
00:43:59
alyssa
um The murderers are always introduced. It's dark places, gone girl, sharp objects, the grownup. And this there might be another one that I haven't read, but in the grownup, dark places and sharp objects, the killer is introduced pretty early on ah just ah as ah as an individual.
00:44:14
Sarah-Daye McDougall
mm-hmm
00:44:15
alyssa
So I like that. You kind of, you've already met the killer, you know?
00:44:18
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah.
00:44:18
alyssa
So yeah, it's interesting.
00:44:19
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Yeah. Well, that makes for a good story. um But Alyssa, thank you so much for joining me on talking about startup objects.
00:44:25
alyssa
Thank you. Yeah.
00:44:27
Sarah-Daye McDougall
I will be coming on to your show or I've already been on depending on where these episodes come out.
00:44:33
alyssa
yeah
00:44:33
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um But thank you so much for being here. Do you want to share with our listeners where they can find you online?
00:44:39
alyssa
Yes. um Thank you so much for having me. I had an amazing time. Thank you for letting me like geek out.
00:44:44
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Of course.
00:44:45
alyssa
um But yes, you can find me on Instagram at stories.spoilers. It's like stories and spoilers podcast, but I'm sure it'll be linked in the show notes. um You can also find me on Spotify and YouTube, same name.
00:44:58
alyssa
My icon is me. It's like my black cat and it's like lavender in the back.
00:45:00
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Hehehehe.
00:45:02
alyssa
It's like a pinky lavender, but I talk all things books, spoilers, non-spoilers, authors, and i just try to keep it cozy. um And yes, I do discuss spooky books, but I also discuss romances and sci-fi and horror and thriller.
00:45:15
alyssa
And um I hope that you all just enjoy the episodes. And once again, give Sarah some love on this podcast.
00:45:22
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Hehehehe.
00:45:22
alyssa
Please comment and just just give all the support, please. She's amazing.
00:45:25
Sarah-Daye McDougall
Oh, thank you. And please go follow Alyssa and listen to her podcast.
00:45:28
alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, it's so amazing.
00:45:30
Sarah-Daye McDougall
um Thank you again so much for being here. um And listeners, thank you for tuning in to yet another episode and I will see you next week.
00:45:38
alyssa
Bye.