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20: Wicked Part One - Character Analysis
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In this episode of Book Watch, we’re diving into a character analysis of Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West (1995), the 2003 broadway musical, Wicked and its 2 part movie adaptation 2024’s Wicked and 2025’s Wicked Part 2: For Good, both directed by John M. Chu. We are also joined by self-described Wicked superfan Abbey Umali, as she brings her unique perspective on the stage production to the conversation. How well did the film capture the heart of the book and the musical? What changes worked—and which ones missed the mark?
In Part 1 we explore:
Character portrayals, casting choices, and differences between the book and movie. How do the movie cast's singing and acting chops compare to the iconic original Broadway cast? How do we feel about 2025’s sexiest man alive, pop stars, and professional martial artisits joining the wonderful world of Oz? And how do we square the circle of the different versions of the characters between the 3 mediums.
Join hosts Chris, Jordyn, Sarah-Daye and special guest Abbey Umali as they break down what worked, what didn’t, and whether this adaptation does the book justice.
Tell us your thoughts! Did you love or hate this adaptation? Let’s discuss in The Book Watch Lounge on Facebook -https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1Czwd3cVFJ/
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello listeners and welcome back to a wickedly awesome episode this month. As always, I have Chris and Jordan with me and we of course are covering Wicked the book and the musical and the new movie.
Meet Abby: Wicked Enthusiast
00:00:18
Speaker
But Jordan, you have invited a special guest so please take it away and introduce who we have with us tonight. Yes, thank you so much. I have my best friend, Abby, here with us. Abby and I met in college when we were, what, 21 years old, and we've been best friends ever since.
00:00:37
Speaker
And when you guys, we were talking about wanting to cover Wicked, I was like, hmm, who do I know who literally named her cat Nessa Rose and has seen the musical like a gazillion times?
00:00:51
Speaker
It's Abby, so I've got to invite Abby on to the show to talk about it with us, since I don't think any of the rest of us have seen the stage production, and she's seen it, like I said, a bunch of times, so it would be nice to have that expert opinion when we're talking about these three different adaptations with us. So, Abby, welcome to the show.
Experiencing Wicked: Musical and Book Differences
00:01:10
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah, i have seen the musical, I believe seven times, six times in LA and once on Broadway, which was amazing. I did name my cats after it. So I had Nessa Rose and then Alfie. Alfie was a boy. So, yeah.
00:01:28
Speaker
I'm glad it was named after the musical and not after the book because I would expect an armless cat if it was you know named after the book. Exactly. Nope. she was she All her limbs were intact. so Well, without further ado, um as we mentioned, we are covering Wicked. It's written by Gregory Maguire and it was released in 1995.
00:01:54
Speaker
um ninety ninety five The audiobook narrator is John McDonnell. However, much to our chagrin, Cynthia Erivo is releasing an audio version in February. So a little late for us to listen to her version, which I'm sure will help us because we all... Well, Chris, um let's all talk about our our... relationship to the book because listeners, if you're not aware, the book is very, very different from the play and the movie. It's different. So Chris, you've read the books and all of the sequels.
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. um The book is a dark retelling of the story. And so it's meant to have those darker elements, but yeah, there's four books in the series that is the wicked series, um son of a witch. And there's one about the lion and one other, I forget. And then there's a follow-up series that follows her granddaughter, who is also green. And that was interesting, too. And then there's been some new things since. An Elfie book that came out after last year's thing. And they just announced a yeah glen a young Glinda book. So that could be interesting, too. Definitely get that backstory and keep the world going. But I've had a lot of experience with the books after the movie came out last year. I was reading them around that time.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I've watched a YouTube bootleg version of the Broadway, but that's the most I've gotten to that side.
00:03:24
Speaker
Jordan. um Yeah, I just finished the book. um It's not a kid's book. like You can you can definitely take your kids to see the movies and maybe even the stage production. Abby can speak more on that.
00:03:36
Speaker
do not let your children read this book. This is an adult book that's got adult themes and adult content. um There was a lot that I was like squirming in my seat when I was reading and listening to it um And I was really, i had like heard that it was super different from the musical and the movie, but then reading it, I was like, oh my God, I was like stunned at just how different and how adult it was. um and I was not like mentally prepared for it. Like, yeah, when the baby bites the finger off, it's it just keeps getting crazier from there. you Like that's pretty like violence wise. That's probably one of the most like violent and gory parts of the book, but like it just gets crazier and like weirder and darker from there. So like proceed with caution. Like it's, it's good. It's interesting. It's like, it's a lot more about like the politics of Oz and like empire and oppression and,
00:04:36
Speaker
Even like ecology, like how um progress of like building out the yellow brick road affects the um the climate and the animals and like the people who live in Oz. So like all of that I think is really interesting and definitely worthwhile if you're you know passionate about Ozzie and politics. um But if you're going into it expecting it to be like a cutesy friendship story about Elphaba and Glinda, that's not what you're going to get at all.
00:05:06
Speaker
Right. Yeah, i sort of skimmed through it. um And so I do have a list of the differences. And we'll get to that sort of through our conversations.
Wicked's Cultural Impact and Personal Connections
00:05:16
Speaker
I have seen the Broadway show once, but I was either in middle school or early high school and was not as into musical theater as I am today. So I regret not paying more attention or like making that a core memory because all I can really remember is like the opening um stage, like curtain before things get started, which I believe is like a bit like a clock, like the inside of a clock or something. And then i remembered the
00:05:53
Speaker
um Like Elphaba and Figueroa have a conversation about saving some animals. And like that's like all I remember of the stage production. Of course, I was a Glee nerd. So i learned more about Wicked throughout the Glee seasons and fell in love with all of the music, um particularly Defying Gravity. But then when I started listening to the second act, I fell in love with No Good Deed.
00:06:16
Speaker
And I've seen the first film several times and I've already seen Wicked for Good twice. So I'm really excited to talk about your experience, Abby. And you have not read the book, right?
00:06:31
Speaker
I have read some summaries and I started it and it also kind of lost me. And I think part of that is because I obviously saw the musical first and I was trying to figure out when the first time was that I saw it, but I think I was maybe eight or nine. And then the most recent time I saw it, I think I was 15. So it's been a little bit, um but I think reading the book after or starting it or kind of getting an idea of it, i was like, whoa, this is so different. And so I kind of am going into it with a little bit of a bias. So I'll just um be honest about that. But it is interesting to kind of compare it to the movie and the differences and things like that. And I think
00:07:14
Speaker
one theme that I really noticed a difference in terms of the um the movie versus the stage production i think the genre is still very different like one thing um that I think makes the musical more kid-friendly is it does feel more like a comedy um there is some romance in it like there's some uh you know fantasy and things like that but You know, I think one thing that the musical fans kind of had to adjust to in the movie is that it's more um like a drama. There is the romance piece in it and it's darker overall. But like some of the like iconic lines from the stage production kind of landed a little bit different in the movie because, you know, the audience is laughing, you get that feedback. um you know, from just being in a room versus some of those like us, as the the fans, we recognize those lines, but you know, the theater is not necessarily laughing about it It's more just like, you know, chuckling or we like, oh, we we remember that. So I think that's a big difference for me is that, um yeah, the musical feels much more,
00:08:21
Speaker
light like a comedy kind of and um like you don't feel I guess the heartbreak either as much um kind of towards the end the end and the um kind of how they part ways and everything like kind of leaves off on a more hopeful note um than in the movie that I noticed so that's just kind of some general thoughts on that I love them both so yeah Yeah, from what I saw on the on the YouTube I watched, it definitely had those comedy elements that I did not expect to see as someone who'd only read the book or watched the movies so far. so Totally. Like one example, I'll just say, like in the very first song um and, you know, mom's giving birth to Alphaba, she comes out green, right? And it's like, oh, it's a happy, healthy little. and then it's like, oh, it's green. And then the audience like bursts out laughing versus in the movie. It's like, oh, she's green. Oh, no. And it's like. um kind of more sad or like disturbing um but ah it's just a completely different reaction which is kind of funny so speaking of the film wicked part one of course was released last year in wicked for good part two which is act two released this year this november um both movies are directed by m john m chu
00:09:42
Speaker
They were adapted by Stephen Schwartz, which is great because he is wrote the play, and Winnie Holtzman, who, yeah, they they wrote the musical and the screenplay.
00:09:54
Speaker
Oh, and the musical was released in 2003. So a pretty quick turnaround from the book coming out in 95 and then the musical coming out in 03. So cultural impact. I think this might be the most...
00:10:11
Speaker
kind of event movie that we've discussed on the show so far. um Wicked is such a popular show, which Abby, i mean, you've seen it, would you say seven times and you're not the only one. um So, and again, like I said, it was on Glee. It's referenced all the time. Of course it's, it's, you know, the the story of the Wicked Witch, which is from the Wizard of Oz, which is also a classic movie.
Disability Representation and Movie Adaptation
00:10:36
Speaker
um but talk to me you guys about your experience with how did you like first hear about wicked and what did you think of like this phenomenon that wicked has created and even with the film and people um dressing up in pink and green and um all all of that and abby let's start with you and like your just the history with what wicked means to you for sure which yeah that which um Yeah, like I said, i I think the first time I saw it, I definitely was in elementary school, maybe like second, third grade. um And timeline wise, I think the musical had probably been out maybe about five years at that point. I didn't know all that context when I was seeing it, obviously was seeing it with family and friends and things like that. And, you know, I've always loved music. Like I studied music in college, was definitely a theater kid in college, erin all through school. um And so that definitely, I think, kind of shaped music.
00:11:40
Speaker
a lot of that for me because that was one of the first musicals that I have any kind of memory of of seeing. And I think too, I do have a disability as well and I use a wheelchair. And so the fact that having Nessa Rose, even though everyone hates that character and I have lots of thoughts on that, um but kind of seeing that portrayal on stage and then in the movie as well. And now in the the movie, the actress actually does have a disability um and uses a wheelchair in real life. So I think that kind of is a deeper level um of connection for me as well. Again, unfortunate that her character kind of sucks. um And I think most people hate her. um But, you know, just kind of having that, that diversity and that representation has given it a special place in my heart as well. And then clearly I liked it it kept going back. And I think um
00:12:34
Speaker
with there being such a large gap, I guess, for me in the last time that I saw the musical and then when these movies come out um came out, um it was interesting. like I had mixed opinions um about the movie, like when I heard it was in production and you know some of the hardcore like fans are you know really picky about things, but I think having Stephen Schwartz a part of it um really made me be like, okay, it's okay. Not that they asked me or need to ask me about it, but um but I think you could tell like any changes that were made um from the stage production
00:13:12
Speaker
even if whether I agree with them or not, like I know Stephen Schwartz and a lot of the original cast was a part of it. um and So that was great. It's really cool to see kind of a new generation of people having interest in the story and um maybe not necessarily the books because the themes are, I feel like are pretty different, but at least kind of that friendship, um like kind of the idea of good and evil. I feel like there's a lot that can be taken away with taken away from that, especially with younger kids and things. And if I was a parent, I would definitely want to have like more conversations with my kids while seeing especially part two. um But the musical is very family friendly. Like, obviously, I saw it when I was super young. So um yeah, and then, you know,
00:14:02
Speaker
Like even in my family, i i was just telling Jordan like anytime Nessa is mentioned in a song like me having my cat named after it, like we'd just be singing the song every day like ah at home. So definitely a big part of my of my life and cool to see a new generation and more interest about it again. Definitely.
Reading the Wicked Books Before the Movie?
00:14:22
Speaker
um I didn't really have it on the radar at all until they started talking about the movie coming out and I had a few some friends that were into the musical and were telling me it was great and so I should be excited so that's when I decided to go and read all the books before the a movie came out because i was like I want to know what this is about and I hear the books are worse so I should read them first so I don't ruin the movie for myself. um so I got through all that and i really enjoy the story on the book side ah but you have to be willing to commit to the full story to really get enough of the ah context to really enjoy it I feel like the book the first book is a complete story but I feel like it it gets better once you follow her son and things like that into the next book and things like that and then who is the father of which one of Elthva no sorry of of her son
00:15:11
Speaker
um Well, it's always ah up in the air throughout the whole thing, but everybody assumes it's Fierro. Okay. um But she has him during her coma, after he dies and all that. So she doesn't know throughout the whole thing either who's son he is, whose kid he is even. Just someone that always has been following her around throughout the whole story after she left the monastery where she went to have to have her little mental break. Yeah.
00:15:36
Speaker
yeah she was She was in a coma and then she like he developed in utero and was born while she was in a coma and then like she came out of the coma and then started like not even being a mother to him because the other people in the monastery like they didn't they're not called nuns they're called something else they didn't like tell her for sure that he was her kid and so it's left very ambiguous but also like you can based on the rest of the book you're like it's totally fiero
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah. And so then I watched the movies and definitely really enjoyed the first one a lot. The songs were all very powerful and emotional. I really loved that. And the second one was still good. there was some i liked the addition of Girl in the Bubble. That one was very gave that character a little more depth and brought the story to its conclusion with a little more power, I think.
00:16:33
Speaker
um But i yeah I think the second one lacks the same way that the second half of the musical lacks a little bit on certain parts, but I do think it was a really good story altogether. Yeah. I didn't have any exposure to Wicked really until I was in like high school. i was always like an athlete kid growing up, not like a theater kid. So i like I didn't know anything about Broadway or musicals. like I had never really gone to see any shows or anything.
00:17:01
Speaker
um I got into Hamilton because I love history and American history. And so I was like, oh, recommended if you listen, if you love Hamilton, we recommend you listen to Wicked. so I was like, okay. And then it was very confusing for me because I thought that all musicals were like Hamilton where the entire story is told through song. And so then I listened to Wicked and I was like, I don't understand what's happening right now. I don't know who's talking, like who's who, what's like, I was just very lost. And then it dawned on me like, oh, there's probably some speaking parts through here that I'm missing context from.
00:17:39
Speaker
Yeah. And so, and so yeah. um And so then, you know, being friends with Abby and her being so into it, I was like, Well, when the movie, when I heard the movie came out, like, oh, perfect. Now I can finally have a conversation with her about it and actually know what the heck she's talking about and what's going on. and so we saw it in together in theaters last year. And then that was pretty much it because I'm just still not like...
00:18:09
Speaker
It's not something that like sticks with me that much like in my soul the way that I think it does to Abby and to a lot of other people. um So i didn't I didn't dive into the books like you did, Chris. I didn't like really get into it. and like, this is my new thing. I was like, yeah, it was good. And then I'll just wait for the next one. And then, yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
And now I do a podcast. And so then I read it. And that was it. So, yeah. I need to be able to push up my glasses and say, well, actually, in the book, they didn't do that way. They did it this way. And so I have to have that thrown on all my friend's face when i when I need to talk about the movie. Yeah.
00:18:48
Speaker
yeah Which is hard to do because there's not that much. We'll talk about it later, but there's not that much from the book that happens in the musical and the movie. So yeah to be able to do that at all is good. Yeah.
00:19:01
Speaker
So let's dive into the cast
Casting and Performance in the Wicked Movie
00:19:04
Speaker
now. um And of course, we'll start with Elphaba Throp, who Indina Menzel brought her to life on Broadway. And in the movie, she is played by Cynthia Erivo.
00:19:20
Speaker
So what are your thoughts on you know, how Cynthia kind of brought this character to life? I think it was great. I didn't know much about her.
00:19:31
Speaker
before this, um since this came out, I kind of have a little, I got a little bit more exposure to um her, you know, career in music and everything like that. um I think it worked really well. um Obviously there's no one like Adina Kristen Chenoweth, which we'll get to um but I love how much she and Ariana respected the role um and respected, I guess, you know, what came before um you know from a musical standpoint i have opinions on like little riffs that were added but this isn't a music show so um i won't go too much into that but overall i think she did really well and i think um you could really see the difference i get with any movie versus a stage production is that you can really see the character's facial expressions more um versus in music you know
00:20:23
Speaker
on the stage, you know, people are looking through binoculars to try to see, but everything has to be really vague and exaggerated. And so, you know, there's a lot of the nuance that we don't always get, but I think Cynthia did a great job. And like every, I always cry every time in the Osdust ballroom scene when they're dancing and you see the tears fall, I'm like, I know it's coming. I still cry every time, but i I just think she did a great job. And also kind of like I said at the beginning with I feel like the change in genre, I guess, from the stage production to the movie, um I think she did really well with that kind of having a deeper emotional side to the role. And you could really kind of see that internal struggle, which you could kind of guess on the stage production, but you don't really get it as much as you do in the movie. So I think it was a great, a great choice.
00:21:18
Speaker
I believe that moment at the Asdas ball was unscripted. I think she was just overwhelmed with emotion. And Ariana didn't know she was going to cry and looked over and wiped her tear away. And it is a very beautiful moment. Mm hmm.
00:21:32
Speaker
Yeah, I heard that as well. Like, oh, so good. Yeah, they really they really gave their all for those roles. hmm. Yeah, and she definitely can hit a lot of the notes they needed for the the music to make sure it was, you know, really bold and big. um I think that...
00:21:53
Speaker
for the the context of the show to have a black woman playing the role too, was a really interesting choice to give that because that a lot of this it comes down to a picture of racism through the eyes of the animals being the oppressed race, I feel like. And so, you know, this green girl also gets affected by that and you take all that away. She's still in our world would have had some issues possibly. So i think that was a really interesting choice and I appreciate it a lot.
00:22:20
Speaker
Miss Ma'am can sing. She can sing. And so like that was really cool because, again, I have never seen the musical. And so I've only ever listened to, like on Spotify, like the original Broadway production. And I'm like, I still generally prefer Adina and Kirsten. But like they really, really are top-notch performers, Cynthia and Ariana. And it's like if anybody else had to play those roles, I'm glad it was the two of them.
00:22:48
Speaker
Same. And Cynthia is one away from an EGOT. She has the Emmy, the Grammy and the Tony and maybe getting the Oscar this year. We'll see.
00:23:00
Speaker
i think they were snubbed last year. So we'll see what they can round up this year.
00:23:07
Speaker
And speaking of Glinda, you can't have Elphaba without Glinda. Of course, Kristen Chenoweth brought her to life on the stage, but Ariana Grande brought her to life in the film. And I have to admit, I was not an Ariana Grande fan.
00:23:24
Speaker
And when I heard that she got cast, I was i was like, what? No way. Um... she's a pop star, you know, and then the thing with the donut had come out and like, it was just all of this stuff. Um, oh, and then like the, I don't know, all kinds of scandals around Ariana. Right. And, um,
00:23:44
Speaker
But after the press tour for the first movie and interviews with John saying he even didn't want to even um audition her because she was a pop star, but she worked her butt off and impressed him and he ended up casting her. And then I saw her performance in the first film and I'm like, okay, sold. Ariana, you've got me on your team now.
00:24:09
Speaker
She accomplished the character well. She had the the right feel for this entitled girl who has to learn to experience life differently through that this story. And from what I understand, she saw the Broadway when she was young and had said, someday I want to play that role. And now she got her chance. And it was wonderful there to see that, too.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah, she actually met Kristen backstage. I don't know if she had like won something or or what the story is, but she had met her and told her, I think, that she wanted to be Glinda. And so they had a lot of emotional moments when she got the role.
00:24:52
Speaker
And then just to shout out that they did have and Dina Manziel and Kristen Chenowich in the role of the singers of the, what they call it? The Emerald City players. players, yeah. In the thing. That was great to see them have a role in the film. so I appreciate that. love when the live action stuff, like even Disney is doing it when they kind of like pass the torch. um And yes, I think both Mulan and Little Mermaid had a passing the torch. And so, I don't think you could have had this movie come out and not have them have a small cameo in some way.
00:25:28
Speaker
I almost wanted to see them back in the second film, but there wasn't really any spot for them. no i I disagree. I think it was good that they weren't in the second. So that way I like, I think it would have been a distraction, especially me, like not having seen it before and not having any previous experience of like,
00:25:45
Speaker
what was going to happen next, like I could see that it would ah it would have been a distraction for me if they had showed up because then now I'm thinking like, oh, that was so cool that they brought them back instead of like focusing on what's happening. But maybe that's just my me and my brain. No, I agree with you because part two is a lot more action like the story is the part one is all about the introduction and getting the ball rolling and kind of you know working up to the climax and part two is so fast-paced that I think you're right like if they had there's no way to bring those characters back like they couldn't be other characters they would have to be those actors and where they fit into part two they just wouldn't It wouldn't, but it would have been fun still see him like in the crowd or something that was the mob going after or something or, know, you could have made it work, but I agree that it wasn't necessary. just would have been kind of fun. Yeah. They did have um ah the wicked one wonderful night and a performance. um
Character Arcs and Storyline Changes
00:26:43
Speaker
And they had one section of it where both Kristen and Adina,
00:26:49
Speaker
Cynthia and Ariana went back to the Gershwin Theater and then Steven Schwartz was playing the piano and they sang for good and they kind of changed up the lyrics to the bridge a little bit and so all four of them were there singing that together. so I know that's kind of like beautiful aside from the movie and everything but that was kind of like the little k nod I feel like. It kind of scratched that itch for me. I'm like okay they're all singing it together yeah.
00:27:17
Speaker
that part's great but i agree mans and there yeah yeah that was a really good production too i watched i've watched that of course and i really loved that production they did a good job with that for sure okay so let's move on to um let's do nessa rose next who is alphaba's sister and she is played by marissa bode in the movie and um again i don't really have a memory of her character from the play um and i don't think like she has any songs on the soundtrack as far as i know um so i really didn't have any pre you know
00:28:00
Speaker
thoughts on her but I thought she was a great actress and like we mentioned earlier she is in a wheelchair so they they changed her storyline a little bit with the spell in in act two but Abby what did you think of her performance yeah I think she was great again i love when they have a character you know, portraying a disability who has a disability. You know, sometimes it's not always possible depending on the plot. um I have maybe mixed feelings on how they changed it a little bit in the movie. So um in the stage production, she does kind of get up and walk. um and so probably why they didn't cast somebody with a disability for that. versus in the movie, she's kind of floating. um And that's, know what the effect of the shoes or the spell or whatever of you want to um attribute that to. um So i i appreciate that as well, because I think the Marissa might be able, might have some kind of ambulation, but maybe not so much. And so that adaptation I think was was good. It was a little different. I think it gives a different meaning
00:29:18
Speaker
to it like I was just talking Jordan about it last night like um the implication in the stage production was that you know once she got the ability to walk she could kind of continue to walk um versus in the movie you see her kind of wheeling again and like wheeling when she's searching for Bach um and so just kind of a little difference in the implication but i don't think it's necessarily good or bad um And then I do love that the the Wicked Witch of the East is the kind of the main song that she sings, but the original um doesn't have that as part of the soundtrack. And I think I heard that it's because there's spoilers in it or something. I don't know if that's true, but that song doesn't really make it into the original soundtrack. And that's where that bootleg version really came in handy for the for the hardcore fans who wanted to listen to that part again. But overall, I think she did a great job in the role. And like, I've seen lots of people online saying like, she was fantastic. Like I hated her so much. She did a great job at ah portraying that. So yep.
00:30:23
Speaker
Yeah. It's me. I'm the people online saying that. but And what's nice is they also cast, if I read that right, a disabled kid as the younger version of her too. It was not just the adult. It was all both were parts of the role were were're kept consistent there. And that's great. For I appreciated that as well. And I know that was surprising for me to learn in the book that the disability was completely different. um And I mean, for those that really went into the book, I don't know if you have thoughts on... that change and how that impacts the storyline for me. I think it's, it's interesting that it's kind of like the legs versus the arms. Yeah.
00:31:04
Speaker
yeah I don't know if you have, Thoughts on that? I think as far as like it adapting it, because the way it's described in the book is that she was born with no arms. So not that she has arms, but she can't use them. Just they aren't even there.
00:31:19
Speaker
Which would definitely make balance more difficult, even if you could walk. so Absolutely. but I think it was. Yeah. I think like as far as like adapting it to a visual production, it's a lot easier to portray a disability when you can say like, okay, just like sit in a wheelchair versus finding somebody who like doesn't have arms. And then you want to do the spell where now she gets use of her limbs back. How do you, if you do find somebody that can sing and act and, you know, can perform and doesn't have arms, like how do you show that they get them back? Or like, how do you hide arms throughout the whole production? Like, I think, i just think it would like, it came down to like logistics, where it was easier to say, let's change it to a leg thing. She can sit in a wheelchair, and then now she can walk once the shoes get spelled. And and just I just think it was literally just logistics. like It just was easier to do it that way. Yeah, it came from the play side of it, where they really couldn't have someone fill that role very easily. And yeah, the shoes were enchanted to allow her to balance in the book, and it just was easier to...
00:32:30
Speaker
in this case do it this way i think and i appreciate that the more interesting part of the book about her is the fact that it it seems like uh who we think is eltipo's dad has like no parentage over any of them it seems like and so she is technically a turtle heart's kid we're pretty sure based on the context of the book so along with their third their brother too seems to be that way yeah um Okay, so Nessa Rose is in love with Bach, and he is played by Ethan Slater in the film, and I thought he did a good job playing Bach.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, his turn towards the end was really was really interesting and a little bit off-putting, and that was kind of perfect for that role, and you're like, I don't get why you're so angry, but okay. Okay.
00:33:21
Speaker
I don't get why you're so angry at Elphaba, but yeah. Yeah, exactly. that's And then I just saw a thing today where they were comparing the original Wizard of Oz, ah you know, dancing around and just being the lighthearted ah tin man to to box like anger and his... the his well in the in the book it's so different but like it's repeated throughout the end once we finally get to the part where Dorothy is in Oz everybody's like she's just a child she's so innocent she's so sweet like we must protect her we must like we have to take care of her we can't let anything bad happen to this child and so I think like that's how I'm kind of like head canoning the like how he gets from this raging tin man who wants to kill the witch and he's singing a whole song about how he wants to kill the witch to yeah if I only had a heart you know like that kind of a thing like it's because it seems like wherever Dorothy goes in Oz everybody is like no we have to take care of her we have to protect her her like mental health and her like physical health and her safety becomes paramount and so If you got to keep it to yourself and like hide your true motives to let her feel like she's with safe companions on her journey, then that's what you got to do. So that's how I've kind of like headcanoned that because it is a really big difference. well And you also have to think of like unreliable narrators too. So the Wizard of Oz is from Dorothy's perspective. And like you said, she's a very naive, innocent child. And so she's probably like, oh, these three people are here to help me. And they're so lovely and kind. And then Wicked is from Elphaba and Glinda's perspective. And when she she's looking down in the movie at Bach,
00:35:03
Speaker
saying, let's go get the witch. And so it's from her perspective, and this is her best friend, you know, almost like the love of her life. And this guy, everybody, the whole town is against her right now. So she might be seeing him as more evil than, you know, there's three sides to every story. So what's actually happening in that moment? And there's probably like a middle ground of who Bach is.
00:35:24
Speaker
True. In the fourth book, Dorothy comes back to Oz and she gets basically put on trial. So oh as a villain, so. okay
00:35:37
Speaker
wild yeah I think um his portrayal was really good that scene like i was telling Jordan to like where he turned into the the tin man like always kind of gives me the creeps like it totally did in the stage production too like it's like the the lighting changes like there's silence and then you just hear the creaking and you like see his arm like tin arm like go over the couch or whatever and it's like oh no um and i got that same feeling again seeing the seeing the movie and it was even i kind of even more because he's like breaking through the door and like looks like he's gonna kill little bit which some in this room might have said justified yeah but ah um but yeah definitely really i mean it did what it was supposed to do um but that's one part where i'm like oh
00:36:30
Speaker
don't know if you might want to cover the kid's eyes for that part. um But, I mean, looked great. um it yeah Technically, Elphaba was saving his life because her sister had just took away his heart. so Yeah, but then she turns the blame on to Elphaba. So and he's just like... And he's already... i He already has, you know He's following the townspeople Where they're all like Elphaba bad So he's like yeah Elphaba bad And so he totally is willing to believe Nessa Rose That it was her fault Not Nessa Rose's fault So he just has a lot of anger but He was just turned into a tin man And he has a lot of anger And resentment And resentment towards Nessa Rose For keeping him in Munchkin land And Elphaba just is his Escape from that
00:37:20
Speaker
He can channel all that anger into finding and hunting her down. Which kind of is Elthaba's plot throughout the whole movie is everybody blames her as the villain that you have to give the people a good villain was the wizard's takeaway from living in the United States at some point before.
00:37:41
Speaker
Right. So that was interesting. Mm-hmm.
00:37:48
Speaker
So we're going to jump up to Fierro. um I feel guilty leaving him this far down the list. um Jonathan Bailey, sexiest man alive. Sexiest scarecrow alive.
00:38:02
Speaker
Sexiest scarecrow alive. Yes. I thought he nailed it. But Abby, what or is your opinion of his portrayal of Fierro? So good. Literally could not have been a better choice. I can't think of a single person. It's like and seeing Bridgerton too and kind of having that perspective and then going into this, it's kind of like he and in the stage production too. It's like Fiero's character, like the goal is for everyone to fall in love with him, like, or not the goal, but that's just kind of what happens and just his charisma. And um yeah, I, I just think Jonathan Bailey was perfect for that. It's like, Hey, even the old librarian, like yeah was, was feeling it with him. So I think he did great. It was um you know, it was cool to see, you know, but his singing ability as well. I think he,
00:38:56
Speaker
you know, did kind of release some music before this um as well. So that's kind of interesting. I haven't listened to it yet, but... um You know, i think I think he did a great job of doing exactly what you's supposed to do. I think both Jordan and I were saying like, oh, there was there was a minute there we're like, oh my, I wish this wasn't PG-13. But at the same time, it is a kid's movie. That's another part where if I had kids, I'd be like, okay, cover your eyes for this part. But I think he did great. there's There's some, you know, I was really trying to pay attention, like how much the chemistry was portrayed, like during part one. between Fierro and Glinda versus Fierro and Alphaba because I feel like in the stage production you don't get as much of that it seems more of like a drastic shift um like you kind of get a sense of it um but I think again like I was saying earlier when it's in a movie format you can really see like those facial expressions like you can kind of get an idea of that internal struggle a little bit more. And so I kind of liked what I always love more Jonathan Bailey content. Yes, for sure. But I liked how there was kind of little things kind throughout part one. And then I'm for sure the beginning of part two to show that um I ended up feeling way more sympathy for Glinda this time. Yeah.
00:40:21
Speaker
you know, when seeing that versus the um the stage production and like how devastated she actually was that he, you know, chose Elphaba. Like I didn't get that emotion at all when watching the stage production because it's like, yay. And like, if we're all like, oh, well, he didn't like you anyway. But you kind of don't see how much Glinda actually really cared about him um did she care about him for him or just the idea of him like toss up but um you could really see how devastated she was that the that the wedding didn't happen and then also kind of that betrayal from her best friend but it's like and they didn't even really have a whole conversation about that but and forget they're like oh yeah we forgive her forgive each other and it's It's all okay, which we love, like girl power um over, you know, over the voice. That's because there was far too much chemistry between Eltheva and Glynda. Oh, yeah. They were the ones that were meant to end up together at the end of that movie. For sure. They got robbed by this Fiero guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. In the book, Fierro isn't with Glinda at that point. I believe there's some other person in oz that she's engaged to or married to, and Fierro lives in his castle with his wife and his kids and comes into town and has the affair with Elthva there while he's on business there. and so Does he have an affair with Glinda too?
00:41:45
Speaker
I don't think so. No. Okay. Him and Glinda are never together in the book. Bach and Nessa are never together in the book. um And Nessa is not like super fixated on Bach where she's like trying to cast spells on him. Like that whole like subplot line doesn't happen. um the like love triangle arrow thing doesn't really happen because Glinda just like... Like she likes Fiero and like her and Fiero and Elphaba all kind of like like each other. But then Elphaba like drops out of school and goes and disappears and goes into hiding. And then everybody else like grows up and graduates and goes and marries other people. And I believe that Fiero was already engaged or already married as well when he was going to school too. So it was like because of the country he lived in, and that's what he was already betrothed as the prince. so Yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah, it was a different difference there for sure. I think that for the musical and the movie, it makes a lot of sense to have ah um the love triangle and the you know all that together. But definitely yeah was a huge change but you're like, wait, this isn't right. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I i really love Jonathan Bailey.
00:42:59
Speaker
Again, like I've watched him in Bridgerton. And the more I see him, i'm like, this dude's a great actor. Jurassic Park or Jurassic World recently. ah sexy little glasses. Yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker
Slutty little glasses. Amen. Like he just makes you feel everything that he's feeling. Like I, he reminds me a lot of like Sebastian Stan and how Sebastian Stan has been like, really widely regarded for her performance as the winter soldier like conveying so much with just his eyes and like just the way he looks at Elphaba and then like you can really tell how much he really really deeply cares for her he's willing he puts his life on the line for her he's willing to fight and to die for her and that kind of like
00:43:42
Speaker
that performance, like, I really believe it. I believe every second of it that he is here for her and he loves her. um so Seeing for good for the second time, um I was really paying attention to the scene where he came back.
00:43:58
Speaker
And so right after Glinda and Elphaba's fight and he's holding Glinda at gunpoint, um you can totally see the pain that he's going through holding her at gunpoint because he does care about her and he does love her but he also wants alphabet to be free um and then you know glinda says he was never going to hurt me and it's true and like it like having that gun pointed to her even pained him And like you said, you can totally see that in his eyes.
00:44:29
Speaker
They really zoom in on that. And you can see the gun is shaking. He does not want to do this. I don't understand how those guns work, though. It looks like it doesn't have a way to shoot even. was trying figure it out. I'm not seeing a barrel here. There's nowhere a bullet to come out of what is going on. I was like, is it backwards? Yes, it does work. Does he even know how to use gun?
00:44:55
Speaker
Really cool prop design. Just doesn't make a lot of sense. It felt very Ozzy-an, but that was the problem. It's like, you're looking at like, what? For sure. Well, that whole sequence is something that doesn't, it happens so fast in the stage production. So you don't really get all of those layers. Like when, you know, he turns it on Glinda and everything. It's, I think it's more just like a moment of shock and then, you know, goes straight into um like escaping and then getting arrested and all of that. So that I love how much they were able to expand on that in the movie to show. And again, like another example of how much Glinda like really felt for him. It's like, Yeah, if you're being held at gunpoint too, that's traumatic. But then when it's somebody that you were just engaged to a second ago, like that's a whole other layer that I don't feel like we really got in the stage production. Being told you're getting married on stage in front of a bunch of people kind of feels like being held at gunpoint too, I'm sure. Fair, fair. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
00:46:04
Speaker
All right, so let's get into some more of our other characters. The wizard, and the man himself, is played by Jeff Goldblum. He just loves weird little wizard movies. He's so good at them, though. He's getting, like, typecast.
00:46:23
Speaker
Yep. The Thor Ragnarok moment. Grandmaster. Grandmaster over a planet with a a blonde guy and ah and a green guy again, you know.
00:46:34
Speaker
Same story, basically, right there. I
Portrayals and Adaptation Choices
00:46:36
Speaker
mean... No, it's funny. I saw interview with him too. I think it was him and Jonathan Bailey and like they were explaining some part of the plot and then he was like, oh, really? Like he didn't, it was like brand information and they're like already done filming. It's like, he's totally learning about the plot. Like, uh, he was learning about the sexiest man alive thing and he didn't realize the part about Jonathan Bailey being a gay man getting it was a, was a much bigger thing than he even noticed. It was like, oh,
00:47:07
Speaker
Right. Yeah. You're, yeah. forgot about that part even, which kind of just made me think he's just not worried about that stuff at all. And was like, you're just perfect for this role. He's just dancing through life, you know? yeah like What'd you think of the song he was added to with the, or the Ariana was added to with him, the one, and the second one here, they did the, what's that one? i forget. Wonderful.
00:47:29
Speaker
Wonderful. What did you think of the three of them being a part of that one instead of just the two? I think it was good. Cause I mean, we know it's, it's not known for his singing um respectfully. and So I think it was a nice addition musically, but then also plot-wise, um like I've seen comments like in the musical, it makes more sense to have, or it makes less sense that Elphaba would be swayed by him, like him alone, but then having Glinda also there, um like you can kind of see her thinking about it and envisioning it a little bit, and then like eventually she snaps out of it, but
00:48:06
Speaker
I think it made it a little bit more believable that she was falling for it um to have her in it. I liked it um because that is one that I always skipped on the original recording. Sorry, original recording guy. um but it's definitely my like one of my least favorite songs of the musical. um But having Ariana be a part of it makes it a lot more tolerable. Everything in addition to what you just said, Abby, with her being more um being more able to convince alphabet i don't think it would make sense if it was just the wizard alone it also shows that way out or the way ah that that uh glinda is being used as the tool of the wizard a little bit yeah good point
00:48:52
Speaker
um We might have to start a ah ah Jeff Goldblum tally for our for our podcast. We've got Jurassic Park. We've got this one. well have to yeah tally up all the Jeff Goldblums we get to over the time. Definitely. He's everywhere.
00:49:06
Speaker
Can we start one for Jonathan Bailey too? Or is it only Jeff Goldblum? Yeah. I mean, I've done Bridgerton already. That's true. we can Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to tally up adaptation. Who's been in the most adaptations? Yeah.
00:49:18
Speaker
King of the adaptations eventually. There Madame Morrible is next on the list and she is played by their wonderful, beautiful Michelle Yao.
00:49:31
Speaker
The biggest problem people have had with her that I've seen online, I didn't really bump up and into it, but is that her singing voice isn't there for the role very much. But I think it worked for the character she was playing just fine.
00:49:43
Speaker
In the book, she's always described as very fish-like. So I'm like, well, you guys did not nail that because Michelle Yeoh is stunning and that's not fishy at all. So that's failed casting. But line in the book, I think Elthaba also kills her. So yeah goes back and like brutally murders her. so in um One of the counter arguments I saw to her singing voice is that when she's conjuring the tornado that brings Dorothy, um you could really see her like martial arts kind of in the choreography. And that not everybody could do that. And like visually, when again, we're talking about the movie as close up. You need somebody that can do...
00:50:25
Speaker
something unique with their body and their arms. look like And that was the kind of kind of kind of ornament. But I thought that she sounded fine. You know, it's not like she has to belt anything out. um It's a lot of the songs are more of like a speaking kind of voice. So I thought it was fine.
00:50:43
Speaker
But Abby, what what was your experience? I think if it was acting alone, I think she was great. Fantastic. the The singing, like when I go back and I listen to the soundtrack, it does kind of take me out of it a little bit, especially on like the wizard and I, like initially i was like, is this in the right key? Like what's going on? And then it's just, I mean, they adapted it a little bit um for her and the range. um So, I mean, the nitpicky part of me is like, maybe we could have done a little bit more training or like, a couple more takes or something um but you know just because it is a musical and we that's what we're coming for um but i similar to jeff goldblum it's like you know that that wasn't really the point of their role specifically um kind of more of that you know the dialogue like
00:51:36
Speaker
come um aspect of of the the like the content of what they were saying, singing, was more important for that. But I do think her character, um again, very different than the stage production. And they actually split that role um into two. So the um Yeah, so Madame Marble versus, I think it's Miss Cottle.
00:52:00
Speaker
So there's kind of like the head sorceress, and then there's kind of like the the headmaster or like shizdrist kind of a thing. So in the stage production, that's one character. And so it's not like huge, it didn't make a huge difference, but I think it is...
00:52:17
Speaker
helpful to kind of see that split of like, okay, she's focusing on the magic side of it versus like the other character, which a shame that they didn't have her sing because she's fantastic vocalist and everything. But having her be kind of more of that, like,
00:52:34
Speaker
dean kind of character i think it was helpful so that madame morbel could be you could go more into depth about about her and like her role and everything so it's an interesting change there but i think overall i think she was a great choice like really just having that i think cold is kind of the impact that it had um and like calculated like i think she did really good job at conveying that I think both Metamorable and The Wizard, their roles, singing-wise, are small enough that you can afford to have people who are maybe not the best singers in those roles, but the screen time they have and the weight and the work that they have to do of like selling that they are like dangerous people who you don't want to mess with them and they have this power, like you really need some heavy-hitter actors in those roles. And so I think... like
00:53:31
Speaker
unless you pull somebody directly off of like Broadway who how like their whole thing is carrying that weight acting wise and singing, like unless you get somebody with like maybe a lesser known name in that role, then this is probably the best we were going to get with trying to balance the singing and the and the acting that you had to get.
00:53:55
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. Let's wrap up our cast with Dr. Dillamond, played by Peter Dinklage. Or I should say voiced by Peter Dinklage. look That's fair. They did have a goat in the stage production, so that's a difference. um ah um But I think that's cool. And that's that's one of the things that having it be an actual movie, like you have the freedom to um actually show that and not just kind of like a dude wearing a goat mask on the stage production. And so I think that... um
00:54:30
Speaker
really allowed for more freedom with the animal storyline too like you could really um kind of immerse yourself in that aspect of it because they were actual animals and not just like half people half animal situation um so i know something bad is another one that gets skipped a lot of the time and i get it but i do like how i really enjoyed it yeah yeah yeah no i liked it too in this in this um in this version and i think having almost like a union meeting like um where you see all the other animals is something that we don't really get in the stage production either like really the only animals we see are dr dillamond get the monkeys and we get the lion and i think that's about it So I like kind of the range. You kind of get a better sense of the demographic of Oz, too.
00:55:25
Speaker
yeah the world That was a little bit hard to grasp, I feel like, in a stage production. Yeah, and that I think that's a good like happy medium because the so much of the book is focused on like Elphaba's crusade to free the animals and like give them their rights and like there's a lot of research being done on what makes a lowercase a animal versus a capital A animal.
00:55:48
Speaker
um and like spirit and speaking and the sentience and souls and like there's a lot of conversation about that in the book that like when you have to condense a story down into a two and a half hour stage production or two two and a half hour movies like you can't get into all those finer details so being able to have a film where like you can have in my opinion, really good CGI for a goat and for all these other animals to like show that there is more of this stuff happening behind the scenes without like straying too far from like the main story that we're focusing on. I think it's a good happy medium between the two.
00:56:29
Speaker
Yeah, it was a really well done, Balans. His office had all those really cool mobiles that I enjoy and as he's doing that song. So, the yeah, it it gave us that feeling of the animal problem without, you know, brutally murdering him like they do in the book as well. Yeah.
00:56:45
Speaker
It gave me some Narnia vibes, too. Yeah. When they have that, especially that scene where you see his office. And i was like, I'm seeing Mr. Tumnus a little bit for some reason. Yeah. Like all the contraptions with the tea and everything, but yeah. Even some of the trees are on Oz's side. Right. I think it's interesting to another, just another animal character, um like the nanny slash Dulce bear, like that was not really in the stage production at all. Like kind of, there is a nanny or like a midwife kind of character there, like for the birth. Um,
00:57:23
Speaker
but not named and not you know like a recurring character at all. So that was kind of interesting to kind of include that and then also have her come back again in in part two. The second part, yeah.
00:57:37
Speaker
Yeah. The birth scene also had a had the wolf there, which would have been colorblind, so they wouldn't have known that she was green. That's funny.
00:57:50
Speaker
Yeah. And then the nanny character in the book is just a human. And so I think. long, long lived human. Yes. I think. But I think the change to making the nanny figure an animal works because it kind of gives Elphaba more of a reason why she cares so much about the animals because she was especially because both of her parents like hated her because she was green and didn't love her and didn't want her. And so
Omissions and Continuing Storylines
00:58:13
Speaker
she was like. raised almost exclusively by dulcibear and so like having her have that familial connection with an animal that who raised her and was her mother basically for her whole life like it makes a lot more sense why when dr dillamond is mistreated at shiz and while all the other animals are being mistreated throughout oz by the wizard and his like
00:58:35
Speaker
campaign against them like it makes a lot more sense why she feels so strongly about it besides like her natural moral code that she has it gets like that emotional depth to it as well so i thought that was a good a good change totally agree
00:58:55
Speaker
Is there anything else you guys want to talk about characters? Do you want to touch base on any of the characters that were cut from the book or do we kind of want to wrap up? The time dragon storyline is a really interesting part of the book that we don't get any of other than like the comments about a clock's tick is a comment you hear. But the time dragon has a big portion of the book being like, you pop up they'll pop up here and there as like a prophetic story.
00:59:20
Speaker
ah interpretation of people's lives throughout and they're like a religion in the system. But they are the ones they reveal her true parentage being the wizard to her towards the end of the of part of it. And there there was just, it was an interesting contraption that um I would have liked to, I mean, I don't see any way it really would have fit into the story, but I really liked it in the book. um Yeah, it was one that I really liked.
00:59:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think the exposure that I've gotten to the book recently kind of made some things, made that piece make a little bit more sense from the movie and the stage production. Not that it was in there very much, but like in the stage production...
01:00:04
Speaker
like part of the set is like this huge dragon that's kind of above the stage. And like looking back at that, I'm like, what is that for? Or like they referenced the clock being like the dragon clock time or something like that. And so that just kind of, I mean, it's small enough to where you wouldn't really notice it. Like I didn't really put that together until again, I you know heard that it was a big point in the book. um So yeah, kind of interesting.
01:00:33
Speaker
how that was like, it's in there just a little bit to like kind of maybe reference the book, um but not that much. I don't know. Yeah. I'm trying to think.
01:00:45
Speaker
It's hard without like getting too deep into like all the various plot differences to talk about the characters that were omitted. But like we've kind of touched on Fierro had a whole wife and three kids. that Because they can fundamentally changed the plot of the romance between him and Elphaba and Glinda... those people don't exist anymore they're just straight up gone um elf in the book elphaba and nessa rose have a little brother who is gone um he he's not even in the book that much i think he's like referenced by name multiple times but i don't know i forget elphaba even like interacts with him in the book um
01:01:25
Speaker
So that's a super small role. And then like shis Shiz is an all-girls school and then there's an all-boys school next door. And so like Bach has a bunch of friends that you him and Fiero like spend time with that are not that are aren't in the movie and I don't think are in in the book at all because they just made Shiz a co-ed university from the get-go versus they it becomes a co-ed university because the wizard is saying that animals cannot be professors. And so during this course of the book, like while Elphaba and Glinda are at shiz, the animals are being taken out of their positions and then they're forced to hold classes together with the boys from the school next door. So like all of Bach's friends that he makes on his own, like they're gone. And Glinda's little like followers who...
01:02:18
Speaker
they're more of like mean girls like the three of them are kind of mean girls and they actually kind of pick on Glinda little bit but like they in the those characters still exist that's Bowen Yang's character and I forget the other the other girl's name but like those two be just become like sycophants for Glinda and like you know quite literally like her personal assistance and doing whatever she wants so just those kinds of the changes that are made in the characters are all directly results of them changing the plot um from the book into these other various productions. So, but we'll talk more about that later.
01:02:57
Speaker
Yes. In the later books, Shalthrop, her little brother becomes basically the successor to the wizard. So, you know, he is a bigger character in the books, but that's not till later.
01:03:09
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. All right.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:03:12
Speaker
Well, Abby, thanks for joining us. We'll we'll see you again in the next episode. Listeners, thank you for your joining us. And if you have any thoughts or comments on what we discussed, please let us know. Join the Facebook group. um And we'll see you next time.
01:03:31
Speaker
Thanks for watching books with us. Thank you. Bye. That's a wrap for today's episode of Book Watch. I hope you enjoyed this journey into the world of page to screen adaptations. If you loved today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, review wherever you listen to podcasts and share it with your fellow book and movie lovers. If you'd prefer to watch along, you can check the show out on YouTube. You can follow the show on Instagram at Book Watch Podcast, and you can follow me, Sarah Day, on Instagram at captain.mcd.
01:03:58
Speaker
That's M-C-D-E-E. You can also join the conversation in the Book Watch Lounge on Facebook at www.facebook.com slash groups slash Book Watch Lounge. If you would like to support the podcast, you can join the Patreon at www.patreon.com slash Book Watch Podcast.
01:04:15
Speaker
Tiers start at only $4 a month, and I'd love to have you over there. If you have a favorite adaptation you'd like to cover with me, I'd love for you to apply to be on the show with the contact form on our website at www.bookwatchpodcast.com.
01:04:29
Speaker
Until next time, keep reading, keep watching, and I'll see you next week.