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Uncorked Secrets : Beatrice Bessi's bold journey in the wine industry.
37 Plays6 days ago
Today in the Check On podcast, we welcome Beatrice Bessi, Head sommelier at London's Chiltern Firehouse, where her passion transform every pour into a story.
From Italy's vibrant bars to crafting award-winning wine lists, she's risen to a Decanter World Wine Awards judge. Holding an Advanced Court of Master Sommeliers certification, Beatrice blends her Italian roots with innovative flair, and talk with me about her experience and expertise about wine. She also debunks sommelier myths and offers tips to elevate your next meal.
Please welcome, Beatrice Bessi!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Check On podcast. I'm your host, Kasey Fraser, and if this is your first time listening, welcome. If you're a day one listener, welcome back. On this week's episode, we have sommelier Beatrice Bessie, and she joins us to talk about bottles, balance, food and wine pairings, and the buzz that keeps hospitality going long after the last orders from the kitchen have been sent.
00:00:25
Speaker
Please enjoy Beatrice Bessie.
Work-Life Balance and Challenges
00:00:37
Speaker
Have you been? All good, all good. I mean, considering everything. um I'm working less at like normal hours and I'm doing a lot of sports. I'm reaching my six, seven kilometers running and and I'm trying to study, to be honest. So that that that's the idea.
00:01:03
Speaker
So what actually happened with it? We had a fire. In the kitchen or? Yeah, you know, part of the kitchen that we don't know how and it went behind ah the basically the the structure of the building um and obviously it went um behind the brick walls so we couldn't see it.
00:01:29
Speaker
We just, we could see some smoke and by the time the the brigade, the fire brigade arrived, the fire was very much you know not under control and it was up to the roof um so yeah that's scary i mean it it was the first sam valentine that i haven't worked so Probably I should have been there, but so yeah.
00:01:55
Speaker
He wouldn't have been. I tot do anything i had the guest to text me what's happening. And I'm like, what do you mean? I don't know nothing. I thought was like a prank. ah People send me pictures with the fire on the roof.
00:02:09
Speaker
And after instead, my guys were actually locked out because for safety reason, everybody was out. So they couldn't even text me and anything. So I was, yeah. Yeah, a bit weird. It happened during service?
00:02:21
Speaker
During service. Oh, my God, that's even worse. At the end of the service, around 3 or 3.30, something like that. So around the end of lunch service.
00:02:34
Speaker
That's crazy. Do they know how long it has to be closed for? are they are they going to reopen? or Yeah, yeah, we are reopening, but obviously it's a lot of... I mean, just the insurance, they haven't even figured it out yet.
00:02:50
Speaker
ah So the scaffolding is still still going on and they haven't finished it. And I mean, it's going to take a while, but we are talking about a two years for now.
00:03:03
Speaker
That's a long time. I mean, it's probably not that long, but it feels like a long time when you say two years. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, obviously, just yeah, we had a lot of people that obviously we cannot keep as a company. So we actively work with every single company London to um to place them.
00:03:26
Speaker
So you know using your personal or company connections to make sure that everybody had a job and everybody could find a solution immediately. we had We made their CVs, so we we made mock interviews for certain people.
00:03:43
Speaker
We really like put all the time to help in that way. and And beyond that, unfortunately nothing we can do. I mean, I have still New York and l LA, so that that's my, at the moment, that's what I'm working at.
00:03:59
Speaker
And after it's sometimes nothing changes and in one week we have we have news, we have updates, so a bit weird.
Impact of COVID-19 on the Wine Industry
00:04:10
Speaker
That's really nice that you helped all the other employees out there. I feel like that's more than what some companies would do.
00:04:16
Speaker
Absolutely. i think I think all of us, we probably learn from COVID, you know, all the all the things that they shouldn't have done and people shouldn't have behaved in that way as a company or as a people.
00:04:32
Speaker
And I think Andre, the first I mean, our our owner, the first thing that he said, listen, we need to take care of people and and that's what we did.
00:04:44
Speaker
So it's, I mean, beyond that, I mean, we didn't plan it, so what can we do?
00:04:51
Speaker
Not a lot more. Has it been weird adjusting to working from home?
00:04:57
Speaker
I mean, obviously, the only problem is that I i um really need to struggle. i mean, I'm struggling, and otherwise I gain weight very quickly. Obviously, having i a very active, you know, normal day with 13,000, 14,000 steps per day without any problem.
00:05:15
Speaker
So, obviously, that changes quite a lot. ah But other than that, at the moment, I'm kind of grateful at this stage because, obviously, I have my... my master's sommelier exam in June.
00:05:30
Speaker
So, ah you know, I can kind of study every day and and I still work and I i still have time left. And it's so very weird, you know, comparing to being away all day, coming back at midnight and trying to find the energy to study at the end of the day, plus barely early in the morning. So, I mean, I'm not, for the moment, I'm not i'm not complaining.
00:05:56
Speaker
So, yeah. And what does what does your master sommelier exam look like?
00:06:04
Speaker
It's definitely a mind game first. um I think when you reach, ah obviously, I've been already part of the few people in the world that pass the advance and that's, and when you do that, you really want to show yourself. You really want to, you really want to, you know,
00:06:24
Speaker
demonstrate to people and to yourself that you are already like an experienced sommelier. And that was already a big stress, but in a limited time.
00:06:35
Speaker
So the difference is that you are pushing for six, seven, eight, nine months, whichever is the case. you pass it you don't pass it if you don't pass it you do it again and you move on um the problem with the master and you obviously you are trying to pass the hardest exam in the world ever released and so that play plays with your mind um also you know you're thinking about all the expectation you shouldn't but you do uh think about all the people what they expect from you and the fact that
00:07:11
Speaker
is you know you you're thinking about the dream of being, to cross that bridge and and ah to know that you are probably, 1% of the population, not even what I'm talking about, 0.00 that ever achieved that in more than 60, in 50 years of history and 56 years of history. And that that's the part that plays you know with with the mind and obviously hard stress on top of it.
00:07:44
Speaker
um But also it's it managing the fact of um of being so like under training for years and years and years without stop.
00:07:58
Speaker
um So obviously that's ah the big the big the big difference where you are five years in a row that you keep studying the same things.
00:08:10
Speaker
You're trying to find a system to be better. You're trying to find a way to be better and somehow sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. And when it doesn't, you just need to pick up the pieces having a break, let's say of one month or so and do it again.
00:08:25
Speaker
And in that moment, a lot of people, they just, you know, obviously either they say, you know what, I had enough. I'm too old for this. I have a family or I'm stepping down.
00:08:37
Speaker
i want to relax. I want to enjoy the life. And also considering what normally the people that are achieving this stage are in their career as a point in career.
00:08:48
Speaker
Obviously, the question is, do I really need to go through that or my career is already well established? Therefore, I don't need it.
00:08:59
Speaker
So I can just, you know, that's all the things that they keep happening in your mind.
Sommelier Exam Preparation and Challenges
00:09:05
Speaker
So it's a daily daily question of, do I want it so behind all this mind mind part um you have also obviously the amount of information and you have blind tasting you have you need to get five wines in out of six correct in 25 minutes
00:09:32
Speaker
you cannot do i mean that's the only time that you have to shine and obviously you're building up that moment for a year sometimes more sometimes less depending on depending on the stage that you are um And also you have practical where you think it's going to be the easy part because you do this every day.
00:09:52
Speaker
But obviously, again, you're stressed and you're thinking about all this kind of situation in your mind. And you have to do a four five table restaurant scenario where you have different tasks and every year changing. So you are getting ready for anything, really.
00:10:11
Speaker
um so yeah it's it's a lot of for me at the moment it's a lot of mind games it's um i think is is achievable but sometimes everything else plays a part and that's the problem so um yeah why do you want it
00:10:32
Speaker
ah
00:10:35
Speaker
i always I always wanted to be more than I achieved, so that's the problem. I don't see myself... I mean, I'm saying now that after EMS I will stop.
00:10:48
Speaker
Will I? Not sure. ah But I feel like it obviously is such a big milestone that I feel like it would be the reason to really settle down and and and focus was on, you know, obviously enjoying all the hard work that I put in in the last 20 years. um also ah Also, I know I can and why should I not?
00:11:18
Speaker
um I think I have everything that takes to pass the exam. And so now, I said, it's a matter of understanding, it's a matter of playing with the mind and and playing the right way. and and And also I could potentially be the first female from italy so that gives me a unique position at this moment where um i was the first one i was the first female from italy a girl woman to achieve the advance ever in italy
00:12:01
Speaker
um and now I'm the only candidate for the master sommelier so why should I stop? I mean there is a sector, there is um minority that it's us in the industry that needs to be represented and I feel like this title could also help in that so I feel like um there are a lot of people that maybe stopped in their own way because of situation, reality of things.
00:12:36
Speaker
um I am one of the few in this position with this situation, with this career, with this work that I have a child and i deal with it by myself since 10 years now. I mean, she's 15, my daughter, but um So I'm thinking about the bigger picture. I'm thinking about if I'm there, somebody else will do it.
00:13:02
Speaker
If I'm not there, maybe not. So there is, I mean, obviously I'm not doing this for other people. You should do it for yourself. So I'm definitely it for myself. But...
00:13:14
Speaker
obviously the idea of representing and also to the reward of, you know, I think I worked so hard for it. i I achieved things that people would tell I am either crazy or it's either impossible and I still did it.
00:13:32
Speaker
um So the question is, why should I stop now when I'm so close to get, you know, i wouldn't I wouldn't want you to call it an elite exam because I don't think that's the point of the exam, even if sometimes it's perceived in that way. Obviously, MWMS, they are somehow perceived as an authoritarian exam. I don't think that's the point. Obviously, yes, you're putting so much sacrifice, you're putting so much money, you're putting so much effort. for
00:14:04
Speaker
You are somehow managing your private life as well in a different way. ah but i don't think that's the point of the exam being an elite i think definitely it's a part of being a community that is driven by mentorship and mentoring ah so i want to be part of those people in the future that will create a different industry.
00:14:30
Speaker
So that's all the things that are spinning in your head oh and when you're asking every day, am I doing this? Am I doing this?
00:14:41
Speaker
Is it expensive, the master sommelier exam? I would say... I mean, in the in the scheme of you know all the wine exams in the world, i don't think it's the most expensive exam ah as per se.
00:14:58
Speaker
The master sommelier doesn't provide school, a tutoring, kind of university pattern as you would think of for the MW.
00:15:09
Speaker
So that takes away, obviously, that part of the expenses. But that doesn't mean that you don't spend money on your own, you know, hundreds, 200, 300 every year of wine samples that you have to study or you don't provide yourself trips or you don't buy the books that, you know, maybe they are talking about the region that you lack of.
00:15:33
Speaker
So you really need in-depth information and information So definitely you keep spending money in that way. um It's not cheap, but it's not super expensive. There are, as I said, MW is 10 times more expensive per year.
00:15:52
Speaker
um Just if we talk about the fees, obviously on top, you are spending on your own. And... um And also, like, even a WST diploma is four or five times more expensive per year.
00:16:10
Speaker
I mean, not really, actually. The diploma is um around 5K spread in two semesters. The master now is around 1,000 fees um ah one thousand feets per per time that you try.
00:16:24
Speaker
So, per year. So, in this, I mean, I've spent so much money in other things, you know, in the last 10, 15 years. It's not, I don't think it's, is you know, yeah this kind of bracket doesn't choose...
00:16:41
Speaker
doesn't put you in a position where you cannot afford it. So that's, for me, very important. um And also in the industry, normally, a certain level, you have, obviously, sometimes agreement with your companies, if you can.
00:16:55
Speaker
Especially in UK, we are very privileged for that. Or or like in top companies like, i don't know, Australia, America, these kind of things, normally you have an agreement where the company provides covers the fee.
00:17:08
Speaker
So it's it's helping... a normal person, you know, to achieve also this without considering the the part of, you know, that is expensive.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's kind of cool. For a very sort of specific high um exam, I guess, that gives you a very amazing accolade, it's definitely not an unachievable amount to do that.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah. I think, again, you considering everything, I think, can be can be worse. So you're buying 300 bottles of wine a year to try, did you say?
00:17:47
Speaker
Probably. i lost the count. I lost the count. 250. I don't know. I don't know. It depends. I mean, obviously, again, working in the industry, you have a lot of support from from suppliers that are willing to to give you some advice.
00:18:03
Speaker
some free samples you know obviously you're working every day with them and they know what you're doing and so you they are you know there are there are people in the industry that are like helping you in this way but sometimes not enough and sometimes you don't understand a certain great variety and it's always your problem so you're gonna buy five six seven eight bottle just of the great variety across the planet in different styles and we're making so um So yeah, normally, probably I would say at least 150 bottle per year.
00:18:38
Speaker
ah Sometimes um I'm just lucky that I get certain things from for free from the supplier. Sometimes I'm not. And as I said, you need to cover everything.
00:18:50
Speaker
So you cannot really rely on what only is available. So you need to source also. things that are in different price point in different categories and um yesterday bought some wines from a supermarket just to to make sure i would have in the range of the of the wines i have at home to study also cheaper less expensive therefore i be more hard to to to get blind uh so yeah it's yeah
00:19:24
Speaker
her Is it likely though in the exam you said you've got six wines to blind taste? Yeah. Are they all going to be high market wines or is it a wide range of what you'll try?
00:19:40
Speaker
It can be anything really. I mean, obviously we do have kind of an idea of guidelines, let's say. We're talking about classics. We don't talk about orange or this kind of wines.
00:19:51
Speaker
a Thanks God for now. um But we're talking about, you know, pretty much the idea would be to have wines that are considered classics from classic regions across the planet but are also potentially widely available because we are talking about obviously to face an exam that is in english but it's um it's happening from everywhere in the world people that flying to London or in America to try to do this. So there are wines that they need to pretty much available
00:20:29
Speaker
everywhere in the market so obviously certain markets are less strong than than our market you know where we have the access uh to every single grape variety in every single style in every single region in the world but that obviously it's not the case everywhere um so you cannot i don't know uh give a grunewertliner from california it wouldn't make any sense.
00:20:57
Speaker
But definitely you do have Grunewaterina from Austria, from two, three, four regions potentially. So those kind of ah situation.
00:21:07
Speaker
um But yeah, ah so it's some it can be a mix. Normally it's free white, free red, but you never know. you cannot expect, but that's normally what happens.
00:21:20
Speaker
um And you have a mixture of different gray vari variety styles, blends, or from everywhere, from the most important wine producing country in the world.
00:21:32
Speaker
so And then what do you what do you have to identify in the wine? What are they expecting you to be able to say about the wine? I have to fully describe them.
00:21:44
Speaker
and So if you do the math, it's around three minutes and 40 per wine with a bit of time left to think about it. So in in those three 40 minutes, 3.42, you do have to describe everything.
00:22:00
Speaker
So appearance, nose, palate and winemaking styles, what do you think the wine has been going through? I don't know, between aging or between any other winemaking techniques.
00:22:17
Speaker
um And you describe the acidity, describe the tannins, you describe everything, describe the palate, you describe the alcohol, you describe everything.
00:22:28
Speaker
and And in the conclusion, within those time, you are thinking aloud of what you just said. And you said, considering what I just said, i'm gonna tell you this wine is from europe and is from a warm ah wo or a moderate climate and it's a young wine from one to three years range and um it is um this great variety and it's from the region of
00:22:59
Speaker
And you call the vintage. So, okay, considering what I said, I would call 2000, don't know, 2020, Sauvignon Blanc, Saint-Serre Appellation from France, Loire Valley, moderate climate from Europe, 2000, voila.
00:23:17
Speaker
but And that's what you have to do for every every single wine. God, that's not a lot of time to pin down everything. Exactly.
00:23:29
Speaker
That's part of the problem.
Roles and Responsibilities of a Sommelier
00:23:32
Speaker
So, you know, having the capability to just go in a room, in a room that it's not your house, your work, office or whatever, seeing six glasses in front of you that you haven't seen before, you haven't smelled, you haven't touched, you haven't drunk before.
00:23:50
Speaker
And yeah as soon as you touch one glass, that's the time you have 25 minutes to manage six wines and you have to describe everything. um and call also what the wine is.
00:24:04
Speaker
That's the part there. That's the difficult part. The difficult part is picking the grape variety, do you think? I think it's a bit everything. you know Obviously, always at the end, the goal is to get to understand the wine.
00:24:18
Speaker
So they really want to see you understanding the wine. So if you're talking about wine that has a hook, there is hock there. if And everything that you're talking about, if you understand that wine potentially is on a maritime climate, you know thinking about all the influences there, you have to say.
00:24:36
Speaker
If it's you know potentially the color and the fruit profile, it makes you understand that potentially is an area where you have a lot of sunlight. That makes all sense of... And so it's... Yeah, it's a lot of things to be said in three minutes and a bit.
00:24:58
Speaker
Well, good luck for that. um I don't envy you at all. It's part of the game. You know, as I said, it's personal and ah you quiet you you ask yourself every day, yeah do I want to do it?
00:25:12
Speaker
And if the answer is yes... that's That's the only thing that matters.
00:25:19
Speaker
where Where did you start in the industry? i mean, I started more than 25 years ago. ah ye I was working just to pay my studies. I am a computer science engineer.
00:25:35
Speaker
um And so i I had to support myself for everything. I started when I was 14, so started definitely very much younger than the average right now ah in Italy, in my own country. And and and to be honest, I never left.
00:25:58
Speaker
um I felt like the kind of power that you have to deal with people and to, you know, the things that I learned, um also how to manage your own personality, how to deal with good people, bad people, how to deal with jokes that they shouldn't have done, or whichever is the case, you know. And also, I really liked, I started to feel like I really liked to...
00:26:30
Speaker
to see the satisfaction um from other people because of my job my service and that's how it started I mean I was I was a bartender mainly for many years in the beginning and and after around years old i started think that that wasn't what I wanted.
00:26:56
Speaker
If I want to stay in this career and justify to my parents and my grandparents that they still couldn't understand why I was doing that instead of working as a as an engineer.
00:27:07
Speaker
um I had to find a way to to be a bit more professional. I mean, I'm not saying that bartending is not professional, but obviously I didn't see myself growing older and still doing the 6am lifestyle.
00:27:24
Speaker
um So it was more a pragmatical choice where I decided to shift into restaurants um fine dining restaurant and wine. And from there I discovered that that was my biggest passion and that was probably now 15, 16 years ago and I never left. So yeah.
00:27:49
Speaker
And then, so from Italy you came to England? Yeah. And then you started working where? I came specifically to work for ah for one place that was now 10 years ago, 67 Palmar.
00:28:05
Speaker
So I came knowing already I would start to work there.
00:28:12
Speaker
And obviously, I wanted to make sure that my choice was, I mean, obviously an opportunity, considering that I had a child and my daughter I left my daughter in in Italy for one year, one year and a bit.
00:28:29
Speaker
uh to to try to understand if i could make it work um and uh and that's what i did um so i came to join 67 palm in at the end at the beginning of 2016 and uh and i was there for four years um so yeah on my way up they being promoted four or five times and passing my exams and getting better and obviously managing at some point ah a 17 sommelier team and and and
00:29:06
Speaker
and 6,000 references wine list. That was at the time, I think, um with 750 wines by the glass constantly every day. Jesus.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So it's a very, you know, it was a definitely a good time where I couldn't I couldn't have hoped for a better a better place.
00:29:29
Speaker
You know, in four years, I've been overexposed. to wine ah between wine people, between wine collectors, between master sommeliers, master wines and and also obviously our our wine list where we could constantly taste everything, everything, everything that you possibly imagine.
00:29:54
Speaker
um So in those four years, I probably learned learnt what a normal sommelier learned in, I don't know, 10, 15 years, or sometimes not even.
00:30:06
Speaker
Because obviously, you know, if you don't open certain wines, if you don't have certain wines available, how can you learn? You can learn them by the book, but it's not the same. So yeah, I was very lucky there. and ah And after I i moved ah in my current my current place.
00:30:25
Speaker
What was it like when you first came to England? Had you been before and did you notice any difference um in terms of the guests and hospitality in general between Italy and England?
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i think obviously also part of being an international sommelier, I think you need to realize that every single country has a different culture in drinking, in asking about wine and in approaching wine itself.
00:30:55
Speaker
so obviously being the person that takes care of guests you also know you also realize this as a kind of a pattern between different countries so the way they drink certain wines is for example the the the way we drink parole in italy is different from the way that we drink parole in here so obviously the first shock was decanting uh people asking me to decant uh very old Bartolo Barolo. If I didn't die that day, probably I'm going to be invincible forever.
00:31:25
Speaker
um But like obviously kind of a cultural shock, absolutely, hover of wine too cold, wine too hot. all these kind of things that are kind of part of the game and you need to respect it and you need to know that and and you need to act in a way that your guest ah has what he wants or she wants.
00:31:46
Speaker
ah At the end, my job, I think, it's... taking care of guests and making sure they're happy and they're leaving the door, remembering the experience that they had.
00:31:57
Speaker
But also it's a combination of at the same time, being a professional, umm giving you and advice, this bottle, the way you wanted me to be, it's not it for you.
00:32:09
Speaker
Or the way you want me to open it, it's not enough. It's not okay. So obviously we provide advices based on the fact that we...
00:32:21
Speaker
we study and we leave wine at the end if the guest still wants to do it a different way you gave them their advice that is a professional advice and and uh and uh and you still uh make them happy at the end and you still do what they want you to do um I would say the difference obviously is, you know, the amount of information and the amount of information that my brain has that obviously it's 200 times more. and and um And obviously all the things that I can talk about, it's completely different than in Italy.
00:32:59
Speaker
I think in Italy it's harder to be exposed to such an amount of wine that obviously it's harder to be exposed to be equally you know strong in every single country in the world.
Wine Service Standards and Guest Interaction
00:33:16
Speaker
You might have your um your own preferences, but in Italy you don't have choice. It's more about whatever comes in Italy, it's one bottle of Margot in, I don't know, in four years.
00:33:27
Speaker
So obviously, how can you talk about the region if you are if you don't open wine? And same for the Italian wines, you know, you might be very lucky to have certain wines, but do you have every single Italian wines?
00:33:43
Speaker
Do you have every single region represented in your own restaurant? So that it's definitely the biggest difference. ah But also, yeah, as i said, London isa is obviously a multicultural place where you are talking with people from every single country and from every single pint part Europe.
00:34:03
Speaker
Great Britain from every single part with different ah age, with different culture, background, with different languages, with different... So obviously with different expectations regarding wine and wine service.
00:34:18
Speaker
um I think London is definitely above the average of a lot of different country in hospitality and in wine service.
00:34:28
Speaker
um Even we can we can talk about Los Angeles, we can talk about big towns. um so that obviously puts you ah in a in a in a in a different level and you really realize what you have when you're traveling around and when you see you know different services and when you see what uh what is also know considered ah very high quality level of service there and you are comparing with your own and you're thinking okay wait a minute okay what are you thinking about everything that you you normally do here as a normal thing and and it's not really normal um for the wine is the same uh what we talk every day what we can oh let's put something by the glass from australia from adelaide hills
00:35:19
Speaker
it's totally normal in London. Is it normal everywhere? Not really. So obviously, yeah, you have the capability to talk about why, because you are exposed about it, but also you have the tricky part of making sure that guests come first and understanding that London, England is not the only way and there are other countries, there are other cultures and there are other ways of drinking wine and as soon as you talk with people, at some point you should be able to recognise it and and be fine with it and make sure that at the end they have the best service possible that they want from you.
00:35:58
Speaker
so Well, I guess it is a very subjective thing as well. like this I mean, I know there is a right and a wrong, but it's kind of like you said, at the end of the day, if the guest believes that what they want is the right way and it's how they enjoy it, then thiss kind of real there's no real way to say, know you're wrong.
00:36:19
Speaker
um probably we are exactly is ah is ah is a very like Yeah, a very tiptoeing moment where obviously, you know, in my team, if something like that happened ah or there is a bit of a question mark or a doubt from one of my guys or from myself, I'm very happy to say no.
00:36:39
Speaker
um But I'm justifying my note, saying, listen, what you are what you are asking me, what you are telling me that you want, it's not the one that you have chosen.
00:36:50
Speaker
Because obviously, sometimes they just want to listen to your opinion, your suggestions. Sometimes just go straight for something on the list. So obviously... I do pretty much with every wine, doesn't matter the price, but obviously when you are going to a certain higher mark, you really want to understand if the guest wants that wine or not.
00:37:11
Speaker
So it's my profession to make sure that you get what you want. So sometimes what you describe and what you think in your brain, it's not what the wine will be. So it's my job to make sure that you get wine and also to protect also my babies to protect my stock that I know this one is not for you from base of what you said.
00:37:33
Speaker
And yeah, it's a bit of an empirical, an empirical power, but it is. I mean, at the end, when you are, I think, when you are reaching a certain stage as a sommelier,
00:37:44
Speaker
you really understand people very, very easily. and and And they tell you a few things, you ask a few questions, and you already know, you got it already, that then why? It's not for them.
00:37:57
Speaker
So I'm just honest, and I'm saying, listen, Based on what you said, that's not the wine for you. You told me you want this, this, this. That's exactly the opposite. So let me give you something else. Let me let me explain you this, this, this, this instead. and And trust me, you're going to be happy. And if you don't like the wine, I'm happy to take it back.
00:38:18
Speaker
um I'm going to drink it tonight. um I always make the joke, obviously, but i I'm not going to drink it tonight. But I'm happy to. It's more like... the risk of choosing a bottle is very... i mean, choosing a bottle is very scary, unfortunately.
00:38:34
Speaker
It's high stakes. Yeah, wine is is too much. there There is too much too many options, too many appellations, too many price points. So obviously... more and more and more you go in details there is so much uh to be considered you know you might have had the same bottle but it's 10 years older and you don't know that vintage is not the same and it's gonna be different and we are the people there for you to make sure that you understand the wine before you open it.
00:39:06
Speaker
So it's always a bit of a, again, you know, a bit of a game where did I say it right? Did he understand what I meant? And all these kinds of things. But again, after 20 years, he becomes part of you and, and it's your superpower. And so I, I rarely mistake,
00:39:27
Speaker
ah reading a person very hard, very, doesn't happen a lot. And if it does, i if I think about it for two days. Oh my God, I didn't know. But when normally, I mean, it's it's part of the game.
00:39:40
Speaker
It's being a sommelier. It's not only about knowing a lot of information, but obviously using this information um for guests and and to make sure that they they know what they want and they are not ashamed to ask they not feel ashamed confront talking to me that i know so much about it it's more about don't worry relax i'm taking care of you And don't worry, we're going to find a wine for you.
00:40:09
Speaker
You don't know what is acidity. Don't worry. That's not a problem. I'm going to make, I'm going to give you a taste of what I think you might like. And we see from there. Oh, don't.
00:40:21
Speaker
Oh yeah, this is amazing. Oh no, this is like, and you moving on. It's like Sherlock Holmes finding a, finding a bottle of wine for them. That sounds kind of fun, actually.
00:40:32
Speaker
Yeah. What's the weirdest request you've had in terms of wine? You say that, you know, like so sometimes people will ask for something and you say that it's not the wine for you or that's not the way to do it or whatever. But what's what's the weirdest request you've had with wine?
00:40:49
Speaker
Aye yi yi. uh i mean the first problem because i again i was very brand new i have to the first very brand new uh you know moved to london very just few months before i was i always called myself a tradition a barolo lover traditionalist so 10 years ago i didn't like i mean i thought i didn't i didn't like any modernist barolo and so i was very much on the old school la la la la and six months after i was like what am i what am i saying i'm lying to myself it's not true but anyway that moment i had a very special uh one making dinner with people bringing their own wines uh and we had this amazing range of barolos uh
00:41:39
Speaker
from the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s like you name it okay from top producers and obviously bottles that are not so easy to find and this person asked me to decant these barolos six seven hours before the lunch
00:42:01
Speaker
and and i kept calling and asking are you sure because this is not okay for the wine No, you don't know nothing about it. All right.
00:42:12
Speaker
ah You don't know nothing about, please taste them and double the candom or the candom ah like at 10 a.m. and the lunch was like at 2 or something. I don't remember. And ah anyway, too much time. I mean, I would never do, it I would never decant any of these wines. But obviously you couldn't say anything because was not our wine and we were just providing the service.
00:42:36
Speaker
And I was very lucky to taste all these wines as pure as they were, as pristine as they were, but in half an hour they were all dead. And these people drank all of them, con convinced.
00:42:49
Speaker
ah That was like a heart attack. Like somebody have stabbed me in the chest. Like, you know, that was my feeling. I really have, I had pain in my heart. And the other one, probably, i don't know, probably when they ask you Coca-Cola with Chateau Latour.
00:43:10
Speaker
I've heard about people doing that.
Wine Pricing and Market Trends
00:43:12
Speaker
I mean, you cannot say no, right? I mean, i learned ah very it's a very good rule that is called tutti-frutti from ah when you are a bartender. And if you can do it, you have to provide it.
00:43:25
Speaker
I mean, you might not agree or not. um I didn't serve it. They want it on the table, but I i turned my back. I didn't want to see it, but I'm pretty sure at some point the Coca-Cola got mixed up ah with the bottle.
00:43:44
Speaker
I cannot really say anything about it. um So, you know, these things, they can happen everywhere. I've i've seen them in Italy. I've seen them in London. um What can you do? It's at the end, you're providing the service.
00:43:59
Speaker
At the end, my in my heart your heart might bleed, but it's not what you are there for. You're there to make sure that the guests are leaving the restaurant ah happy.
00:44:11
Speaker
So, yeah. How expensive was the bottle of wine that you think they mixed with Coca-Cola? A few k's. A few k's? Yeah. ye That's always fascinated me actually is um the price tag that can be put behind a bottle of wine.
00:44:31
Speaker
When you think about wine auctions and things like that yeah and they can go for tens of thousands and more. Yeah. What is the price tag behind that? what What makes it so expensive?
00:44:45
Speaker
I mean, there is a lot of, I mean, wine is a very weird, ah I mean, you can kind of compare it to uh to other kind of type of collections but not really because obviously wine is alive and uh and it keeps evolving and sometimes it's also a game of guessing if this wine is gonna be fine in 10 years time or 15 years time or 20 years time or um more so sometimes you might not be lucky but you still spend the money for it so
00:45:20
Speaker
um the price like obviously it's i mean first a winery is a business so obviously they have to cover their own expensive uh expenses um so you know from planting a vineyard just consider that to be commercially available A bottle of wine, you need to have at least vines planted ah ah three, four, five years old.
00:45:48
Speaker
So in this four or five years, you're actually not making any wine. So that's a lot of investments. In the meantime, you have people that are working for the vineyard, that are making the wine, that are still kind of doing tests and you're still tending to the vineyard, but you're not having any money coming in.
00:46:08
Speaker
ah And that it's part of the the situation to be considered. Also, you know, planting a vineyard, if it was not there, everything that is part of the, the you know, before making the wine, it's expensive.
00:46:24
Speaker
um Also, I think as ah as a winery owner winemaker, you do have a business plan. So you are already thinking where your wine should be.
00:46:37
Speaker
you want to be the best quality, obviously and you spend much more money on making sure the grapes are healthy, on making sure the vneyards is the vineyard is healthy. And so you spend a lot of money on making sure you have the best grapes ever that are reaching your winery.
00:46:55
Speaker
and um And so everything there is more expensive. um But also your position, there is ah also a bit of a, I'm positioning myself as,
00:47:07
Speaker
because i am, wanna be, or I am one of the best. So it's it's due to cost, it's due to labor, it's due to investment.
00:47:20
Speaker
um The oak aging, the oak barrels are super expensive and some wineries are changing them every year. They just throw them away or they just resell them to other people that are making brandy or other wines.
00:47:36
Speaker
So everything to be factored in is expensive. and But also there is also the part of me, I am the winery, i am putting in my wine there because on top of it, I want to be in that bracket because if I'm lower, i would just, you know, advertising, let's say my wine, positioning my wine, not for the quality that it is, or I'm putting my wine a bit higher because I want to be distinguished from other,
00:48:10
Speaker
So it's there is a lot of this kind of, I think, discussion within a winery to be considered. So it's partially cost. Also the history, you know, thinking about certain wineries that they are part of the the icons, the unicorns of the wine industry.
00:48:28
Speaker
They want to be positioned in a way that they are obviously an elitarian choice where... You can buy them only if you you spend other money or you can buy only if you are in a mailing list and you are selected from them and you can get only six bottles per year.
00:48:50
Speaker
So there are a lot of these kind of things. um Wine is also ah i an item that can be collected and there is a lot of obviously a lot of that too.
00:49:03
Speaker
So wines that are meant to be aged, they attract this type of game. game um so you have people that are really looking every year to buy certain wines to lay them down in the center and potentially to either drink them in 10 years or more or sell them in 10 years or more and obviously they gain more money or they open the bottle and sometimes it's good sometimes it's bad so i think the pricing is a combination of all these factors
00:49:38
Speaker
I sometimes wonder if it's a little bit like art in the sense that, um like, let's say you've got a really prestigious winery where they sell, you a thousand pounds bottle of wine, but then you've got a winery that's next door. So it's got exactly the same terroir.
00:49:56
Speaker
Is it just because one has said that it's popular, it's become popular, we believe it's popular, Is it more to do with, well, not more to do, but is it to do with that as well?
00:50:08
Speaker
Is it because it's got that kind of popularity behind it and got that hype about it?
00:50:17
Speaker
I mean, maybe a bit, but if I would believe that, I would probably wouldn't be in this industry because I wouldn't respect it as much as I do.
00:50:28
Speaker
um I think... Yes, there are trends and there are wineries that they become, even now they can become famous.
00:50:39
Speaker
um And they they are famous in the last 10, 15, 20 or 100 years sometimes or more. um But I think it's, I mean, I think as a sommelier, it's always a very good good exercise to do taste the blind top wines and really feel what your body you know what your mind and your body tells you uh instead of tasting labels because sometimes we're tasting labels and we don't really want to say or or we don't really want to admit that that wine was not really
00:51:18
Speaker
exciting for us um and that again is part of the part of the industry part of the idea of the wine itself uh some bottles are not shining you open them one day you open them six months ago they were amazing same bottle same lot you open it a few days after or six months after ah is the wrong day of the calendar and The wine is not okay.
00:51:45
Speaker
It's not bad. There is no fault. But the wine is not shining. and And unfortunately, it's part of the game. um So knowing that this is such a big variable, you cannot really... Oh, from now on, that winery for me is over.
00:52:04
Speaker
Obviously... I think quality is should be always the drive ah for the price. i dog That's how I select my wines.
00:52:16
Speaker
Quality comes first. um But quality can can come in different bracket. So if you can find there are wines below 20 pounds bottle that are amazing quality.
00:52:30
Speaker
and um and are deserving the same you know hype and the same merit and the same positioning as much more expensive ones um I think because there is wine for everyone, ah it's not the price that makes the difference, it's the quality. So in every single bracket, youll find you find the top leaders, the top players, and with different pricing.
00:52:58
Speaker
It's just different pricing. And so what you're willing to spend in that moment of the day, of your moment of your life. um But yeah, there is definitely some sort of hypes, and sommeliers sometimes we're driving that.
00:53:11
Speaker
you know, you're listing wines that that some sort of, you know, that they kind of discovered from sommelier. we We read the trends much more, like, in advance than other parts of the industry because we talk to guests and we see what works and we see what doesn't work anymore. And we see, so obviously we are the forefront sometimes you how you know what the people ask we are the first people to know it what they like and so we are changing the our wine program very quickly based on what the guest wants and what the guest doesn't want anymore um
00:53:50
Speaker
And so obviously our buying changes because of, yeah, you might have an idea, you are obsessed with that wine, but if it doesn't sell, you're not going to buy it anymore.
00:54:00
Speaker
So you can love it, but if the guest doesn't want it, doesn't want it. So at the end, you need to be successful because also we are a business too. So, yeah, it's a combination of everything. I think there is a bit of hype, but I don't believe it's only about hype. Yes, sometimes the bottles are not talking to you the way you would expect, but it's also part of the part of the thing. And again, you might have six bottle case. You open one, it's kind of okay.
00:54:32
Speaker
You open the other, it's beautiful. You open the third, it's kind of okay. but you know they could be much better and it's not done on purpose it's because wine is alive and and unfortunately the variations are part of the fact of there is a grape juice liquid with alcohol and and so it's part of the beauty or the frustration of it um and as a professional we just need to deal with it and explain it and and absorb it and learn from it and and just be realistic and honest with guests and
00:55:06
Speaker
yeah
00:55:09
Speaker
how How do you, at your current workplace, do your food and wine pairings? What's the process for that? um We don't do a lot of food and wine pairings as per se because our menu, it's not made in that way. ah But obviously our guests are are asking us, every single table probably, you know, what would you suggest? And, yeah,
00:55:34
Speaker
To be honest, I don't have a rule. i mean, obviously, you study and you know the rules, you know, the the the rule by the book, and you still have them in in your mind. But at the end, I like to... If I feel i have an opening for this type of conversation and for this type of move, I definitely like to to to give something unusual or to give something that...
00:56:02
Speaker
they wouldn't expect, they would like. And that normally is the best so the best or the best part where you they react and they and they realize they like something that they never liked before or then they would never choose by themselves.
00:56:17
Speaker
So yeah, obviously you you're using the rules by the book To kind of orient yourself, but at the end, it's more about, again, what you feel from the guest and they are very much, you know, in a box where they want this and that's it.
00:56:34
Speaker
Or they give you the freedom, they want to experiment. And so... I think it's very nice and important as well for a wine wine person to have the space and the freedom to have also wine that that can give you this sort of experiments, power.
00:56:54
Speaker
I mean, you might have a very classic wine list, but with two, three, four, five wines that in case, that are bit less usual. So they give you the freedom to, or even within a very classic region, you might have two, three wines that are just out of the, out of the, what you consider classic.
Wine Pairing Principles
00:57:15
Speaker
And that gives a bit of a different talk and different perspective.
00:57:19
Speaker
ah Yeah, it's again, it's very much on a daily to daily ah conversation and table table by table and person by person.
00:57:31
Speaker
It's my, I think it's my superpower. um So it's the best part of my of my life, to be honest.
00:57:40
Speaker
Okay, let's let's do a little exercise then. Because I'm interested in the thought process behind pairing wine with a dish. So um I'll just take one off a tasting menu I did recently. yeah It was a wasabi cured trout.
00:57:57
Speaker
So it was it was quite well cured, had quite a firm texture to it. The wasabi was just coming through a little bit. It was Cornish trout. It had a watercress sauce underneath, which was slightly acidic and slightly salty.
00:58:12
Speaker
um It had an avocado cracker that had some seeds through it, um some avocado powder made with a little bit of maltodextrin. And it had some cream cheese that had some elderflower vinegar mixed through it.
00:58:25
Speaker
Ooh. i mean... There are a lot of things that could work there. The first things that you do by the book, you avoid red wine-ish.
00:58:37
Speaker
If they don't ask you, I want a red wine with it. You advise and you advise a non-oaked wine. That's the first thing that I would remove out of the picture. So I'm basically kind of funneling in my brain.
00:58:52
Speaker
And I'm going through the amount of information I could. And I'm just getting the best. um So here, if you want to play safe, you can easily do any some sort of high acidity wine ah that doesn't have any oak.
00:59:12
Speaker
And there you have millions in Italy. You have millions in France. But because of the wasabi, because of this kind of hint and elderflower, um I would probably orient myself in an off-dry wine.
00:59:28
Speaker
um So i I could see myself really easily advising a Riesling here. um That probably could be one of my first choice.
00:59:40
Speaker
Riesling, again, very, very divisive reaction in England. Again, cultural identity. british British people sometimes they hate Riesling.
00:59:53
Speaker
It's not okay. They haven't had any Riesling. They thought they had it. The supermarket was not Riesling, but they still think it's Riesling. It was a German blend that destroyed the perception of Riesling in the British market. that So you kind of put it out there and you see what they feel.
01:00:14
Speaker
If they're not, you know, oh, I love it. Oh, no, I hate reasoning. Okay, so you're moving away from it. But I think that would be my first choice. So probably easily a cabinet, a cabinet from Germany where you have low alcohol, you have high acidity, bright, healthy flour, lime, lemon kind of ah flavors, um pinch of sugar that kind of tunes down the spiciness.
01:00:44
Speaker
um if they don't like it um i could probably do a lot of varieties that are again on the ish neutral side with a lot of minerality uh with a lot of acidity so i would probably do like a nice piano di avellino if you think you like that like to be a bit different um I mean, all the classic grape variety there could work ah if there is no oak. That's the the big no-no there.
01:01:12
Speaker
um Why is oak the no-no? Because they would clash with what ah what the seasoning is of this dish. And they would, especially the wasabi, but they they would clash with with what it is. And also you go by clever kind of choice. I mean, you're not considering this your main course.
01:01:31
Speaker
So... you can if you want to i mean i'm serving the glass and leave but is this your best choice no um I give you an advice.
01:01:43
Speaker
You don't like my advice, I give you what you want. Again, same story, but I wouldn't drink it with an okie chardonnay. You know, it's it's too early in the stage of your palate of what you're drinking, what you're eating.
01:01:57
Speaker
You have probably another three, four courses to taste. So why would you go straight with that 14% alcohol, 14.5% now? for some point five now uh or even more i know uh and after there is it's harder to go back to i don't mind when i do it myself i go from off dry to okie to red to sweet to but you know normal people we are weird people normal people they kind of tend to don't do that um
01:02:29
Speaker
it nothing said and nobody can stop you. I mean, I did it as well. I mean, i had they wanted me to do the pairing, so they chose the dishes in a way that ah why why a course that preceded the main course deserved, I don't deserved a light red, and after I gave an oaky white, not a problem.
01:02:48
Speaker
I mean, there is all the freedom and the experience for you to do that, but it's less likely to happen.
01:02:59
Speaker
And then you talk about the rules, the classic rule book or guidelines for food and wine pairing. Yeah. What what are the what's the sort of summary to that? If you could give me like four four classic rules.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah. wine and food pairing. What would they be?
01:03:18
Speaker
uh i can tell you for i mean first ah you you try to match the intensity and the complexity of the dish with the intensity and the complexity of the wine uh so very easy uh so if the one if the food the if the course is the plate ah has a lot of complexity a lot of flavors you're not gonna try to pair with a neutral light fairly easy drinking wine so you are trying to match also that also the type of flavors they should be trying to match um
01:03:52
Speaker
in this way um another thing when you have uh when you have for example uh spices um and uh and you try to avoid wine that are very aggressive so aggressive it means you know very much uh higher in alcohol, higher in tannins if they are red, and higher in whole caging.
01:04:20
Speaker
So these things are good things that we love, but they are considered the aggressive part of the wine. So if the food has a sort of, you know, very like spicy, chilly undertone, those three things are the things that you need to put under control.
01:04:36
Speaker
So... no oak at all or no tannins or low tannins that's why we normally do a lower like a Pinot Noir or something like that or a white wine so you avoid the tannins altogether or um alcohol as well so alcohol obviously announces uh certain type certain part of of of the dish so if you have spice the alcohol clashes with it obviously you do have alcohol alcohol it's wine but you tune everything you're trying to play on the lower scale and pinch of sugar there that's why i chose the uh
01:05:15
Speaker
with that if you have a pinch of the sugar obviously it tunes down the spiciness or this kind of flavors uh um and another thing that we could think of uh let me think about it um
01:05:39
Speaker
i mean it's there are very very easy ones normally i mean that's what we we teach in italy normally d ah the uh the residual sugar as well of the dish so if it's a sweet dish should be paired with a sweet wine but do i agree with that Yes,
Changing Wine Consumption Trends
01:05:59
Speaker
no.
01:05:59
Speaker
Again, um i like to i like to have rules, but I don't like to, you know, sometimes... For example, if a person tells you that he doesn't like sweet wine, but he wants another glass with his, I don't know, chocolate tart or, I don't know, Eton Mess, strawberry, pavlova, whichever...
01:06:25
Speaker
You still need to find something for them. So what are you going to do? um With the chocolate tart, I would probably do a glass of Rioja. Very nice, smooth, juicy, ah fruity, ah full of fruit,
01:06:42
Speaker
ripe glass of Rioja. They don't like sweet wine. They want a red. No, I'm not going to serve you the glass because the book the book says that you cannot really do that, right? It would be funny if you did, though.
01:06:59
Speaker
Oh, I'm sure there are people doing it, but this is not really the way we should work in our profession, if you really have passion for guests. um and And you find alternatives, you know, you're moving away from, you could you could you could have a very high quality tea or you could have, ah you're going back to de-alcoholized wines or sparkling teas with the Eton mess, I'm thinking.
01:07:24
Speaker
ah you could You could serve a kombucha. ah You could also, if they want an alcoholic beverage, you could do a raspberry Eau de Vie that we do produce in England, some of the best in the world. um So you can, there are lot of things that you can play. Obviously, being a sommelier gives you normally the idea of having and a knowledge that is cross-referential.
01:07:46
Speaker
So you can play with it.
01:07:50
Speaker
Do you find people are drinking differently? i mean, i know from just being in hospitality, I know I'm a chef, so I'm not so much forward facing, but I find that the younger generation are really kind of stripping back and not drinking as much.
01:08:08
Speaker
Do you feel that at all in the industry? People are sort of watching how much they drink as compared to 10 or 15 years ago? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There is obviously this much talk about Gen Z. um I still, to be honest, haven't figured out yet what I think about it, if it's a generational thing or not.
01:08:33
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:35
Speaker
There is definitely the the point of wine should be more accessible, yes. Wine should be more easy to be ordered, yes. ah So maybe that impacts the generation.
01:08:49
Speaker
Not sure if I i am agree with you or not. um Also, we do have the point of money access. I mean...
01:09:02
Speaker
ah it's harder and harder to put money aside and obviously it's harder and and harder to to to be able to buy luxury so obviously younger generation are really struggling with that yeah that could be part of the problem but also I think um I believe that this could be just a phase.
01:09:27
Speaker
ah There is definitely the fact of being healthier. There is definitely the fact of choosing qua quality over quantity. It's still part of the discussion. I think that's also a big thing.
01:09:39
Speaker
um But yeah, in the last years, for sure, the quantity of of of wine sold in the world, I mean, from every sector has definitely decreased.
01:09:51
Speaker
um I think, yeah, people are more cautious. There is more competition. They can Google, unfortunately. they can They can get an opinion, unfortunately, from not the right sources.
01:10:08
Speaker
So sometimes they choose one based on what a Google thing said. And it's not okay. But unfortunately, it's part of our world right now. We have everything too accessible and we don't make our own mind.
01:10:23
Speaker
um so we don't work for it, to be honest, as much as we did have to, um but also, yeah, it's healthier, I'm drinking two glasses instead of five, I'm drinking, ah but also you have the part of people that I'm drinking a 35 pounds glass instead of a 20, because I'm drinking just this, it's a treat to myself,
01:10:45
Speaker
So, I mean, there is definitely like a kind of a, i didn't want to call I don't want to call it a red flag, but there is definitely a bit of a flag in them at the moment in the industry where we are checking, we are considering, we are questioning what's happening.
01:11:00
Speaker
um In my experience, I didn't, I felt it a bit, but nothing, not as much. But you can see people are drinking in a different way. Absolutely.
01:11:11
Speaker
Absolutely. And again, yeah, that's where you go. ah Sorry, I was just saying, yeah, I mean, obviously the wallet capability, its it's it's a problem and it's the reality of things.
01:11:24
Speaker
So obviously, would you rather go out if you go out and drinking? I mean, what do you spend money? You are spending less money in food and you drink one glass instead of five.
01:11:38
Speaker
And that's the way that you can still go out and afford it. So, yeah. Yeah, it's been a weird couple of years for the industry, I think, especially, yeah I mean, everywhere, but especially I feel it in England from, you know, obviously COVID and everyone was recovering from that. There was a massive boom of everybody going out once lockdown was lifted, but then that very quickly tailed off.
01:12:01
Speaker
And now, you know, still after that, people of really watching what they spend their money on. And yeah definitely from my perspective, we have to get creative about the produce that we're using and the way that we're trying to justify to the guests that, yes, you should come and book with us.
01:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. Do you have to do the same thing with the wine? Do you have to get creative with the wine list and be like, okay, this is, this is what the people are drinking. This is the price point that people are spending things on.
01:12:29
Speaker
um How do we try and push that a little bit? How do you do that? Yeah, I mean, it's the same. i mean, obviously, we are we are every day in the restaurant, so we keep ah constantly having, like, even unwanted feedbacks or, like, you know, you're checking your yourself what you're doing every day. and if And if something doesn't sell, you need to question yourself. And um and I think...
01:12:54
Speaker
I think what makes a wine program successful is really the focus of the first ah price the first price point, where you still need to have bulletproof wines that are amazing, that are high quality wine.
01:13:12
Speaker
You don't sleep there. you don't You cannot sleep there. It's the buy the glass program and and the first, I don't know, for me, I was very privileged to say that my first price point is till 250 pounds per bottle.
01:13:28
Speaker
That's not really normal, let's say, in every restaurant in the UK. But below that, really, your wine list needs to be bulletproof.
01:13:40
Speaker
um The wines need to be delicious. You need it really to... Every single wine that goes out needs to be enjoyed and needs to be...
01:13:52
Speaker
like a positive you know needs to get a positive reaction so that's where really your work needs to pay attention and and uh and you know and you're talking with people and you're understanding that you know you can keep classic but also you might need uh others and uh and uh different styles and lighter uh less alcohol all these kind of things are around and they are they have been talked about and so you you make it part of the wine program um if if your company you know is is happy for you to do so if i don't know if you are but in even if you have like a kind of a
01:14:38
Speaker
restaurant where you have a subject let's say you know it's a french restaurant so they want you only to do french wine list fair enough even in in every country you have so many expression on wines that you can definitely have the best wines below 150 let's say pounds fifty let's say pound uh high quality small producers so you can definitely do that the same way that you would do it for your food you know you you try to to get the best produce you try to get um english products the best farms you work with them directly you try to don't waste ah you you buy something and you use it all of it in your menu and that's the same that we do ah pretty much for wine um
01:15:26
Speaker
So you try to make it accessible, but you try to ah to make every single person that comes in your restaurant enjoy every single bottle that you can choose.
01:15:37
Speaker
And that makes successful everything else. So everything else on top of it, when you do more pricey choices, are justified because of the first bracket.
British Wines and Market Position
01:15:49
Speaker
Talk to me about British wines. They seem to be the new kid on the block and I see some what I think is quite expensive bottles out there of British wines. Are they competing on a world standard or are they not?
01:16:07
Speaker
Uh... I am personally, I mean, I think spark the sparkling part of the industry is definitely ah above the average. We have amazing wines out there from England, from United Kingdom.
01:16:21
Speaker
um
01:16:25
Speaker
Pricing, ah you have all very accessible, all overpriced. um But also you are facing with an industry in a country where the climate is not stable as we would love to be.
01:16:42
Speaker
ah So obviously you're facing different types of expenses. You're facing different types of yields. You're facing all of that. That obviously I know because I'm a professional, does the consumer know? it Maybe not, or it doesn't realize it. So obviously there is ah definitely a big part of ah big part of the sparkling industry and the wine industry that is fairly accessible.
01:17:10
Speaker
the quality is there. um But there are also, you know, certain wines and labels that are ah really pushing forward and, you know, having like long-aged vintage wines where the price is...
01:17:29
Speaker
Very expensive. So obviously you have these two parts. I think it can be either it's accessible, but also you have certain labels that are obviously a bit more pricey. And the question is, is your guest, I mean, will your guest choose the same price, sparkling, super expensive, premium, English, or will they choose something else for the same price or lower?
01:17:58
Speaker
So again, it's very much kind of a guessing game where You might place it, you might like it. um So in that case, ah you can support it and and and and put it on a menu with a different price just for the sake of supporting the winery.
01:18:16
Speaker
And that's something that we don't we normally do because you believe in a project. um But if you do the same as others, then you might not sell it. Or you might sell it because it's an English...
01:18:32
Speaker
one list so i mean it's there are again a lot of variables there it's again depending on your program your rationale and your guests what the guests expect from you but I mean, if I believe on a project and I think it's slightly overpriced, um but I still believe on a project and I want to sell it, I'm going to take the, you know, the cost out of it and I'm going to make sure it's part of the wine list that is still accessible for what I think should be listed, even if it doesn't make any sense.
01:19:05
Speaker
But I'm going to make it because I believe on the project and you can do this with the wines that you believe on. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, but yeah there are that are fairly accessible ah English wines that are very good quality. And so, yeah, a bit of both.
01:19:24
Speaker
Have you ever had to sell or push a wine that you you didn't believe in or you didn't like? Like, say there was a wine on a wine list before you had sort of autonomy over the wine list. um Was there something on there that the restaurant had bought and you didn't believe in it, but you had to sell it?
01:19:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:19:44
Speaker
But yeah, unfortunately i cannot really lie. So I would say I'm kind of, yeah, it's it's a good wine and it doesn't go far.
01:20:00
Speaker
No, but I i mean, ah if they ask me, is he your best wine? I'm going to answer honestly and I'm going to say, no, that's not my favorite wine. but But obviously...
01:20:11
Speaker
you know it's a light is ah you you have ways of saying things you know uh that theyre and they're never negative um i did three different clearance phases at the moment so i'm on my number three um you know taking over from from programs that they were not, ah they didn't open with me and, and um across the planet. So between London and, and America and, and,
01:20:45
Speaker
And that's that's what you have to do. And you list the wines and and you just so you can change the price if you want to. So it speeds up speeds up the process.
01:20:57
Speaker
um But again, I'm very honest with my guests. So if they tell me, is your favorite, I'm going to say no. But I'm going to say, listen, this is like a fairly easy to drink, a fairly approachable wine.
01:21:10
Speaker
um Or if it's a price point that ah you hope that this happens only with the cheaper stuff, you know, you hope that because of the price point, you will sell it no matter what, because it's a price point.
01:21:26
Speaker
If it happens with expensive ones. It's a bit harder. And that's either you put it by the glass, you do something about it. But it's part of the again, it's part of the process.
01:21:40
Speaker
So you have to deal with it. You making sure that nobody will order it. And I mean that you don't order it anymore. And and as soon as you you finish, you you you move it on and you take it off from the one list and you are jumping up and down because you did finish it.
01:21:58
Speaker
Or or if i if it's really bad, I just put it on cooking. I mean, not bad. Like if it's not good for what I like, I don't use that. We don't use any faulty wines in kitchen and stuff. But if it's something that I would never sell to a guest and it's good, but it's not up to what I think my wine list should have.
01:22:23
Speaker
we can make, know, we can make, you can make different different products. You can make, I don't know, ah whatever you need and you give it to the to the to the kitchen or you give it to the staff.
01:22:38
Speaker
I gave stuff, wine to the staff that was listed because I couldn't believe we would sell this wine. And so you give it, you you just, but again, it's not because it's bad, bad. It's because it's not what the wine should have.
01:22:55
Speaker
um Or you make, I don't know, I don't know, you you make ah you make off a frozen cocktail out of it.
01:23:06
Speaker
You repurpose it into something else. Yeah, i mean, it's part of, again, of, you know, you're trying to you try to avoid to lose cost, but if it has to happen, it has to happen. I would rather, if it's... Or I discard it. i mean I mean, I open the bottle and pour in the sink.
01:23:26
Speaker
ah I mean, it's... if everything that you do is successful and is bulletproof and is well thought gives you the freedom to f throw a bottle in the sink if it's not up to standard it was already there so nothing you can do about it i mean you you want to avoid this this is the last stage but But like, there are many wines that I i didn't like.
01:23:55
Speaker
They were not bad. they I just didn't like them. And I just thought we could have they could have done much better. But I cannot say nothing about it. I just sold them till they got done.
01:24:08
Speaker
And i was very happy when they finally got done because they I was not proud of them. But I would always say, I mean, these wines, and i haven't chosen them. But I mean, I'm not lying.
01:24:21
Speaker
but and um and i mean you are when you are showing your wine list it's like you are you are opening the door to your brain and your heart ah to people so people can understand what what you're passionate about.
01:24:38
Speaker
So obviously, being a wine director, you want to feel proud of what you have as a wine list, as a program. So obviously, those moments, you need to deal with it. and and And you you you i mean, you're still a business. You cannot lose, don't know, 300 bottles of the worst wine that you would never bought, but that's, you know, unfortunately people are moving, people are moving around and sometimes you have a bit of stuff left and you have to deal with it.
01:25:14
Speaker
You touched a little bit at the start of the conversation about being the first woman from Italy to do your advanced and master sommelier. Yeah. Is it a very male-dominated industry?
Gender Challenges in the Sommelier Field
01:25:27
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. They never ask ah to any of my colleagues how they they can work ah having a child. I don't understand. And most of them, they do.
01:25:40
Speaker
So why they don't ask them? But they do ask me every single time. Women, men, doesn't change. Why are you asking me? I'm here.
01:25:52
Speaker
Why do you care about me dealing with my nannies ah that I had millions spent for them? why Why do you care? But they do care. um It's definitely, I mean, we can talk about inequality for ah forever because we are not in an equal ah in an equal system and society.
01:26:10
Speaker
we can We can pretend it is, but it's not. So we are working towards reducing this gap, but it's we're not equal. Yeah. And and obviously it's extremely harder to manage a career, especially with this type of industry that leads to work in the night.
01:26:32
Speaker
um If you have a family, it's harder, but it's not impossible. It's just harder. And so therefore, sometimes people want to compromise and people want to have a different choice because they feel something else is more important.
01:26:48
Speaker
Yes, my daughter is important, but my career is important in the same way. Because if I'm not an happy person, I'm... If I'm not satisfied of what I have achieved, what I'm doing, how can I be a good mother?
01:27:04
Speaker
It doesn't, it doesn't, they are connected. They are connected. If you don't feel satisfied and happy, you cannot be a good person in your family, in your setting. So, I mean, I'm definitely one of the few that probably thinks that.
01:27:19
Speaker
Um... But yeah, we are not in ah equality. London is very much different. London is way above the average. We have much more more women working in the industry than every single country that you can possibly think of.
01:27:34
Speaker
Um, so we are in a privileged position. We are not equal, but we are in a much more privileged position where things are moving and where, and where things are like, you know, when people are talking about this and people are trying to make it better.
01:27:51
Speaker
Um, we are in the, like in the beginning of, you know, at the forefront of the line. Um, But I still have people you know coming to me and guests from everywhere in the planet.
01:28:06
Speaker
Shocked by the fact that I'm a woman and by the fact that I'm the boss and by the fact my guys wearing in the same uniform are my actually guys and they don't work I don't work for them. um so 2025 so on um but yeah it's part of the game and uh the only way to make sure that you you know that you are dealing with it you're dealing with it in a respectful way and you're dealing with it in uh with the knowledge
Advice for New Hospitality Entrants
01:28:36
Speaker
let's talk about vintages and let's see
01:28:40
Speaker
I think that's a really important thing to put through is that um it's not impossible. It just might be a little bit harder, you know, like I don't think that there's... I've been in sleep for 15 years.
01:28:51
Speaker
That's it. it's You make it work and and at the end you keep asking yourself what you truly want, what you truly want. and And if that is meaning having some sort of a sacrifice for a phase in your life where because you want to achieve, you want to achieve no matter what. And obviously it's harder.
01:29:14
Speaker
I'm alone. I was a alone. and And I'm okay with it. And i've been ah now i mean and also, leading by example. Your child sees what you can achieve.
01:29:28
Speaker
And we can talk forever, but it doesn't work. It's more about what we do as an example without even... thinking that we are showing something.
01:29:40
Speaker
It's the way we behave in our normal life. It's the only thing that our child needs, I think. So you can say, don't do this, don't do that.
01:29:51
Speaker
But after, if you're acting in the opposite way, your child won't absorb what you said, but will absorb how you behave in your life. how your boundaries are how respectful you are how honest you are and um and that's that at the end it works out and i mean i wouldn't do it again um i've done it done by finish No more. No, I'm too old for that.
01:30:21
Speaker
um I cannot do it. for I cannot do what I've done. And sometimes I think about it and I'm like, did I really did these kind of things? Like, But I never miss one day at work.
01:30:34
Speaker
I never go sick. I work harder than anyone else. um So I really wanted to be valued for what I deserve to be valued on.
01:30:47
Speaker
Nothing else. So that's it really. Do you have any advice for any of the the new generation coming into the hospitality industry? But I don't want to say specifically women, but obviously any any new person coming in, what would be your advice for them to have going into this career?
01:31:10
Speaker
ah I think stay humble, work hard and and just don't listen to others.
01:31:22
Speaker
too much. Just keep asking yourself, what do I want? Do I want to achieve that? That's it. So that's all it takes. If you want to achieve it, you can do it. And nothing else should stop you.
01:31:34
Speaker
What if, blah, blah, blah. No, that's not. that And that's the majority of the problem sometimes, you know. You are too cooked up in the ifs and maybes that you don't actually take action.
01:31:47
Speaker
um I think work harder than anyone else. stay humble and make sure that when they tell you something works in that way, you actually have already your own opinion.
01:32:00
Speaker
Or if you don't have it, work towards having your own knowledge, your own background, so you can talk and speak for yourself and make a judgment. Because we cannot just absorb information in a blind way, just, you know, comes to you and you just say, is that the truth? I mean, is it the truth though?
01:32:22
Speaker
Did you make the work so to be able to say yes or no, to have your own opinion, to have your own experience? So I, e oh and and when somebody says to you that something is not possible, don't believe it.
01:32:39
Speaker
I don't believe it. Just I got automatic. I was probably a problematic child. i can say that. But I always did the opposite on purpose. Now it doesn't work anymore. I'm too old for that again. But ah if you know i if somebody tells you, even your your people, you know your family tells you, no, you you shouldn't do that because it's not it's too hard. It's too...
01:33:03
Speaker
Don't believe them. Just go for your own way. Don't listen to them. Just listen to what you want to achieve in your life. and And it's going to be harder, but when you are ah across the bridge, you're going to feel, you you will feel so much happier because you actually achieve what you wanted. That's great advice.
01:33:22
Speaker
Absolutely. Women even more so, unfortunately. You know, just listen to, I mean, you cannot do this because, who said that? Just do it.
01:33:35
Speaker
My final question is what is something that you've discovered recently that you've really fallen in love with?
Conclusion and Best Wishes
01:33:47
Speaker
In the industry or in general? Oh, in the industry, but you can give me a general one as well if you like.
01:33:55
Speaker
Oh, I mean, I keep falling in love with my ear with my passion and that's something that sometimes surprises me. As I said, probably it's more about playing games with my mind, about keep motivating myself why I'm i'm trying to pass DMS.
01:34:12
Speaker
And I think sometimes I'm like, you know, reading stuff and I'm like, oh my God, this is so amazing. I didn't know that. And you're like super excited about it. And I look in my house, they look at me like,
01:34:26
Speaker
you're crazy. i You're talking about an advertised in the 80s that changed the world of Napa. Like, here are you are there.
01:34:37
Speaker
You know, these kind of things. And you're like, um oh it's who I am. It's, um I think, wine gives you constant uh fire and passion and i keep finding things that i find interesting and they keep me alive um and i love i love the fact of of of the fact that I keep finding connection in everything.
01:35:05
Speaker
I love the fact that I know more about geology, biology, culture, history, political history than I would ever achieve if I wasn't in this industry.
01:35:19
Speaker
So...
01:35:23
Speaker
ah That's it, really. I think it's, I mean, wine is definitely my whole life. so But after everything else is connected, food, traveling.
01:35:34
Speaker
So it's such ah an amazing and amazing passion that... I keep discovering things every day and that's ah unfortunately also the problem that keep I keep having to add new information, new information, but it's not something that bothers me or bores me.
01:35:54
Speaker
like It's the magic part of it. um beyond Beyond being with guests, I think is my my other passion. I love being with people and I love talking with people that you would never meet otherwise and and the discover different cultures and languages and and so on. so um i I think it's it's a constant discover of resilience as well. you know you Obviously, this industry gave me the reason to be more resilient than ever. And that's probably the thing that I keep discovering about me.
01:36:33
Speaker
um but yeah it's we are very in a we are in a privilege privilege industry if you if you want to take it in a positive way as we should uh we are in a privileged position we are in a privileged industry we are in a privileged country where things are more accessible than anyone else in the world uh with the downside of things with the problems of things but we just need to push through and uh and make things happen It is a very beautiful industry in the sense that it's always changing. There's always something new and even revisiting something that's really old is still very new and exciting.
01:37:11
Speaker
So I think you're right. We are in a very, very privileged position and it's important to remember that even when sometimes feels a little bit tough. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on.
01:37:24
Speaker
Good luck with your Master Sommelier exam. Thank you I am very excited to hear about that. Please make sure that you message me. You're going to smash it. hope so.
01:37:35
Speaker
If I don't, see you next year. yeah and Well, yeah, there's always next year, but I have a feeling that this year is your year. All right. and Thank you so much for that. You have a great day. Thank you. You too.
01:37:47
Speaker
Thank you.