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#4 Jack Wing - Is a piece of mackerel worth the cost of a life?
54 Plays5 months ago
Jack Wing is the operations manager of Wing Of St Mawes and the Cornish fish monger. He is also the son of the founder. Today, Jack deep dives into the inner working of being a fish monger. We talk about the controversy of Scottish salmon farming, why farmed is good for the industry, how the migration patterns of different species are affecting their catches, and the real cost of getting your fish delivery to your restaurant doorstep. We also touch on the lobster hatchery and what they're doing to ensure the reproduction of lobsters. Please enjoy, Jack Wing.
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Transcript
Introduction to Jack Wing and Family Business
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome, welcome back to the Check On podcast. And on today's check, we have something a little bit different for you. Jack Wing is the operations manager of Wings of St. Moors. Now, Wings is a family-run business who supply a lot of the UK's top restaurants with their seafood. And today we're going to chat about a variety of different things, ranging from the controversy of Scottish salmon to how the warming waters are affecting their catches. So please enjoy Jack Wing.
00:00:33
Speaker
ah yeah you're right i'm good thank you yeah yeah good good so i um I guess I wanted to kick off a little bit just by getting a bit of background knowledge on you and your role within the company um and a little bit about growing up in Cornwall.
00:00:49
Speaker
Cornwall's pretty amazing to grow up in, not gonna lie. I think ever it's the postcard village, isn't it? And I grew up in the postcard village, in St. Moors, right on the sea, um being here my whole life. My dad was born in St. Moors, my mum's from the East end of London, um and moved down when she was 15 to work in the hotels. And they met, long story.
Educational Journey and Joining Family Business
00:01:10
Speaker
And I've got a sister, she's slightly older than me. And um and yeah, I think living down in Cornwall,
00:01:16
Speaker
is everything people want it to be, but also then it's it's also not you know it's a long, dark winter in Cornwall. You've got to fill your time and you've got to make Cornwall work for you. And I suppose that's like anywhere though, isn't it? you know If you live in London, it sort of just blows past your face. I think everywhere has its disadvantages. I lived in Falmouth for my first two years of living in England, so I experienced the long, cold winters.
00:01:38
Speaker
i was like I'm literally just across the water, so um the little the little ferry ride. It was pretty cool, you know you're on the water, um hence fishing, you know it was sort of sort of a standard thing down here. Went to school, did all my normal stuff, yeah had friends, played on the football team, um didn't really know what I wanted to do, didn't do amazing in my GCSEs, I'm not the most academic person.
00:02:00
Speaker
um But there was a lot of pressure from my dad to go through education. My sister did, and you know, GCSE's A-Levels degree job. That was the journey he wanted me to go on. So I did. I read business studies, geology, maths and chemistry at A-Level. Dropped chemistry. didn't Didn't do very well with maths. You know, you could do it at GCSE, but the jump was huge.
00:02:23
Speaker
job maths and um I just got two and um I didn't know what I wanted to do. The only subject I could do quite well was geology. So it was quite big in my school. um So I went through Clearing and I got to Kingston University and Kingston-Pontemnes and read geology. Didn't like it, absolutely hated it. It was not for me. I don't know if it was just education just wasn't for me or Geology in general, but I didn't enjoy it. that like I dropped out when you when you realize what you've been studying It must' have been scary he was
00:02:58
Speaker
I wouldn't change it, you know, I met some really cool people, loved it on the water, I joined the rowing, you know, rode up and down the Thames, Richmond Park, Hampton Court, loved it, still still mates with the the guys I lived with, but, you know, it was a little bit, you know, dad, you know, relatively successful and, you know, had that really pressure on me and my sisters and, you know, succeeded really
Challenges and Evolution of the Seafood Business
00:03:16
Speaker
well. And yeah, there probably was quite a bit of pressure, or I felt it internally, you know, there was none extra and it was all self-created of, you know, what I'm going to do, you know, 2021 at uni thinking,
00:03:27
Speaker
you know the world's easy and it's not as easy as you think so yeah it was a tough conversation with dad to say i wanted to come home you know like i committed a lot but i was just like i can't do it i just couldn't do it so i came home and i kid you not i was sat in my bedroom and he knocked on the door and opened the door and he said i'm not having you sat at home doing nothing i need a driver i'll see you at eight o'clock tomorrow and then shut the door And that's how I started it working for him. right um So yeah, something I never really wanted to do. I wanted to do my own thing, wanted to have my own life. I look like my dad as well and I sound like him. So I was always, you know, like Rob's son, Rob's son, Rob's son. And I was never Jack and I wanted to like go down my own path, which
00:04:10
Speaker
you know, turned out to be the wrong one, you know, I should have gone into the business. But I should have had a year out, I should have come and worked here, loved it, and then gone away and done like a business management course or something and then come back. But I didn't. So yeah, I, you know, I worked at Christmas and Easter and I helped the guys out through the summer when I was off from school, you know, just in the factory when I could. But yeah, that was nine years ago when I'm, yeah, when I just turned out for a driving job at eight in the morning, and I've done every single job since. I have run the yard at four in the morning at Christmas. I have worked through midnight. I've hand sliced smoked salmon. I've picked crab on a weekend. I've done the factory manager's role. I've run the high care room. I've done the night driving run. I've done every driver route. I've done everything real. My dad really wanted to ground me and and I've gone from the bottom up and um and I work in the office.
00:05:05
Speaker
That was just natural progression. We had someone leaving the office and I was going to go that way anyway. So that was just like, I'll have you in. um So they backfilled me in the factory and um I went to the office and sort of did sales, naturally inherited his cool sheet um and then sort of went from there really. And the roles just sort of developed from there. I love it.
00:05:25
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I think it's a bit of a, I don't, I don't want to say a common thing. It's probably not that general, but I think when, um, kids have very successful parents that have their own thing, it's almost quite natural to be like, I want to stand out on my own. Like, even though probably a lot of them end up going into the business anyway, I think there's this kind of rebellious thing inside of you that says, I need to, I need to know that I can do this. And it's not just off the back of somebody else, you know?
00:05:51
Speaker
Yeah, massively. A lot of my friends at my school now work for their dad, and met my work in a creamery. Another guy who works in property, another guy works in management. um you know they all naturally once got a load of restaurants which we supply and he he you know he helps running those and it's the natural progression but i think i think yeah a lot of them you know alex my mate he was going to move away to london and do something different um yeah i mean i i didn't grow up with that kind of experience with my family but um i'm very very close to the owners of the restaurant where i did my apprenticeship and i remember i i worked there for nearly five years starting off on a house and then doing a three-year apprenticeship and
00:06:30
Speaker
At the end of it, my boss Stephen was like, do you want me to put some feelers out? like I can help you find something. and i just I was so against it adamantly. I was like, no, I'm going to put my own resume out. Don't ask anybody. I'm going to find the my next job on my own. It's not going to be with anyone's help. and i was probably I think I was 21 or 22 when that happened, but still, it was very much like, I don't want your help. I want to know that I can get a job after this on my own merits. so on a very different level but I do kind of get it. It's a weird thing. It's exactly the same. um There's nothing wrong with help and there's nothing wrong with that natural progression and you know actually it's a great thing to for me to take on a generational business you know I'm only the second generation but you know sort of grow it and put your stamp on it but then there's also a lot of pressure not to mess it up you know. There's a lot lot of um lot of people were watching me and you know waiting for me to fail but I'll make sure I don't
00:07:25
Speaker
ah Everyone's always going to be waiting for someone to fail, don't worry about that. But no, it's all good. So how did how did the business start then? Because it's a very well established, long standing business. Everybody knows the name in England, you know? So we've been going for about 40 years, I think it's 40 years this year. um And my dad's a trained chef. Again, went to school, didn't really know what he wanted to do. Went to catering college and ended up chefing in the hotels in St. Moors.
00:07:52
Speaker
um Came out of that for various reasons, helped work with his dad and um met my mum. And again, the long dark summer in
Seafood Advocacy and Environmental Concerns
00:08:00
Speaker
Cornwall, you know, there's it's all tourism back then. No, this was the yeah early eighties and there wasn't you know a lot going on. you know no real money, so needed to put two and two together. And he knew how to fish, you know, from growing up in some more was in a seaside town to sheffings, we thought we'd put the two together. So he bought a couple dozen scallops, and he drove them up to the Priory Hotel in Bath, which was, which was your neck of the woods. That's a long way. Yeah, I know, friend of a friend from working in the kitchen knew the chef there and went and did that and sold him the scallops. And then, and then came home.
00:08:38
Speaker
And then he phoned up again next week and he said, can I have some more scallops? He was like, yeah, I'll do that. Went back up, did it again. Third week he said, can I have some more, but I need a turbot this time. And I was like, Christ, how the hell am I going to get that? So went down to Newlin market, shout auction, bought a turbot, drove it up.
00:08:56
Speaker
And the rest is history. That is how it started. Just in the back of his car, didn't have anything else and just, you know, a bit of grit and determination. And he'll say he played that down. He said he works a lot more than one day a week, but that's how it started. You know, just just with the bath priority. And yeah, that was it. And that that was all back in the days when they had to stop and dial into the answer and into phone boxes and stuff like that. No mobile phones. No, yeah no, nothing like that. So real grassroots. You know, they sort of leave on a Monday night, you know, get the orders, go down to Newland, get the fish, prep it, leave on a Monday night, drive through the night, deliver through Tuesday, go up through Wales, have a good any all that on on Wednesday in and get home Wednesday night. So they'd leave, you know, they do sort of 40 hour stints to get through the country, pick up a bit more fish in Wales and then go again. And yeah, you drove through Wales during the mining strikes and all kinds of crazy, crazy stories, which would be a whole nother.
00:09:49
Speaker
conversation. A whole nother episode. A whole nother episode of how they grew and what they did but it was as basic as that you know it was very different back then you know he came out of Cornwall and went into you know Bath and Bristol because they're landlocked counties within reason.
00:10:03
Speaker
ah you know That's where fish was harder to get hold of, I guess. And then there was a niche and filled the gap. Now, you know there's a lot of us. It's not really niche to source fish. you know there's there's There's plenty of people out there doing it. um But that's where it started, you know to get up into into the Lam not counties and um and go from there. And it's just grown it, worked every single day since. And um yeah now we've been running for about 40 years, employed just over 40 people. And um yeah, it's really, really cool.
00:10:30
Speaker
So it really just kind of started with a friend of a friend who needed something and your dad's willingness to be like, yeah, I can get you some scallops. Simple as that. Yeah. ah You know, it was a lot harder than that to get it to what he is now, but I imagine yeah it was. Yeah, it was as simple as that. He knew how to cook. He knew how to catch fish. They thought to put the two and two together and.
00:10:47
Speaker
And here we are today, you know, a lot of hardware later. Have there been any kind of really notable hurdles along the way? Because I imagine it wasn't a very linear route just from no call so where you are now, which is a very, you know, big, well known, successful business. Yeah, I think moving from just being mum and dad,
00:11:07
Speaker
um to then you know starting to employ people and then going through the whole you know legal actions of lunch breaks and pay and stuff like that was was sort of a transition period. um Probably the hardest was in the late 90s when fishing wasn't the best. you know Without farmed fish, I don't think we'd have a business. you know That was really relied on because wild stocks, they ebb and flow, which I'm sure we'll get into, but that was a real transition. And then the financial crash in 2007, I just started secondary school.
00:11:35
Speaker
um And that was a real, real hurdle for dad and mum to manage and transition and look after the staff. And, you know, it's hard. A lot of businesses went out of business and we were very, very close to it. But um a lot ah lot of hard work and, you know, good planning meant we could ride the storm. and Yeah, so that was probably it. The rest has been just a bit of hard work.
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah, I imagine the financial crash must have been really, really scary. You know, when anyone where you're working for yourself and you're responsible for drawing your own wage and paying other people's wages, it's just it's such a huge pressure. And I guess if you were in secondary school, you must have kind of felt that a little bit as well. They must have been really stressed. They they did
Fisheries Management and Sustainability Projects
00:12:20
Speaker
well. You know, you're always the last to get paid. You've got staff that you need to look after. You've got Masterfeed. They've got families to look after. And There's a lot of pressure. you know When you can you lose sort of 60% of your customer base and 60% of what you're owed as well over in the space of six months, you go go from trading quite well to so not very well at all. So it's about a transition period. Everything everything you know moves. we're We're in one now. you know The economy is quite hard at the minute. Inflation has been really hard. And um it's about weathering that storm and making sure you're the one-on-ones that survive.
00:12:50
Speaker
That's really great that they did manage to survive though and they had that kind of grit and determination to ride it out because I can imagine a lot of people would have said, you know what, like we we can't ride this out and just kind of threw in the towel. So being able to stick to it and say, no, it's going to get better. It's going to change. It's just hard right now. that That's something that's a really cool quality to have, I think.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, he's always been really resilient. I would say, you know, always looked for tomorrow rather than today. And it's always been, you know, forward planning, you know, leaving the money there and making sure that there's, there's enough to keep going, keep going right out whatever we're doing. um Maybe a little bit, a little bit conservative, you know, maybe maybe it's held us back over times, but it's definitely meant that we're still here, still here today and trading well. So. And then when did you, when did you sort of open up to the public?
00:13:37
Speaker
That was just after the financial crash as well. To be but to be fair, it started up the first time and then sold it. um And then I think 2008, maybe 2009, the financial crash, you know,
00:13:48
Speaker
makes your mind think about what you can do and our customers, restaurants, hotels, that type of stuff, obviously didn't trade very well. So we thought we'd bypass it and go straight to the customer. So he created the Cornish Fishmonger, which is the home delivery brand, so retail. And that's just an online shop or one-stop shop where anyone can add whatever they want from fresh fish to smoked fish, which we smoke here on site, to frozen, to prawns, to anything like that. And it's developed massively over the years. You know, we started with selling what we stocked for the catering market, which is very different size fish. And if you want a turbot, you want sort of a two to three, three to four to portion up, whereas members of the public and want a small one kilo fish. yeah So we've we've grown a lot over the time. And we've recently sort of pushed into
00:14:35
Speaker
I guess you could say finished foods, but we called it stocks and sauces. So, you know, like a Thermador sauce, more marinara, fish pie sauce, we've got a crab pasty being made, a smoked haddock pasty, like a seafood Wellington. Yeah, it's like a Thai crab pasty because, you know, I like crab, but brown crab, you know, I can struggle with on occasions if it's too, it's quite rich, it it's very crabby. Yeah. and I struggle with it. So we've, we've gone through the flavours of like a Thai.
00:15:02
Speaker
so lemongrass, ginger, or you know, chilli, all those types of things. It's pretty amazing if I say so myself. It's delicious. We make the mix, you know, make the pasties. We've got a production kitchen here on site andnna and we'll do all that here. and then And I guess the hard times, like you say about the recession, it sort of made you diversify. You know, we've been smoking fish for 30 years because back when he started, and it was another thing that you could sell instead of buying it in. So we've still got the same smoker that you bought 30 odd years ago that was secondhand at the time. well um you know It's been refreshed since then, it's got a new smoke producer and electronics, but the actual box that it goes into is this exactly the same one, um holds about 250, 260 kilo a go. and um And we smoke a huge range of award-winning products. And then the development kitchen as well, um it's just about you know diversifying your offering and you know being able to sell another item as opposed to buying it in.
00:15:57
Speaker
It is a real skill, I think, like when times get tough and people are spending their money differently, it is a real skill to pivot and think, okay, how, how can I change this product to make it more accessible or change this product to make it something that people still want to buy when they're not buying, you know, the two, three kilo turbo. It's, it's very massive. It's about, it's about, you know, channeling the USP as well. You know, we're by the sea, we're close to the sea and we can.
00:16:26
Speaker
shorten the time that it takes for people to get fish and they go to the supermarket it's probably going to be like seven to ten days yeah old by the time they get to it and I think that's you know where this preconception of people you know a lot of people don't like fish or just say don't like fish
Changing Trends and Seasonal Challenges in Seafood Supply
00:16:40
Speaker
blanket it and I would urge people to try you know fresh fish which is very different to what you get in a supermarket. It's a lot younger, and as you'll know, being a chef, cooking it, you know, fresh fishes, chalk and cheese for, you know, old fish. And also, all seafood is different. You know, a mackerel is very different to cod, which is very different to salmon, which is very different to monk. Then you've got shellfish and the prawns, you know, they all this so much, you know, same as chickens, different to beef.
00:17:04
Speaker
You know, there's so many different varieties and how to cook it and I would urge people to really go to the source and um Buy as local as you can to to shorten that time keep it fresh And then I think people would enjoy fish get such a healthy protein source and you know, it's the last bulk caught wild Food in the country really, you know, you've got wild boar and a bit of venison here and there but you know bulk bulk protein fish is sort of the last one and Yeah, absolutely. I am i had ah a recent supper club that we did and there was a guy, he came along with his partner. She didn't show in the menu before she came and we had a cured wild sea bass on there. And he doesn't like fish, but she didn't tell him it was on the menu. It was a set menu.
00:17:46
Speaker
And he ate it and he said, I hate fish. I don't even eat fish and chips, but he, he loved it. Like, and that was just a you nice, really fresh piece of wild sea bass. And out of everything, you know, he, he doesn't like fish, won't touch it, but then ate what most people think about as being Roy, even though it's not, but you know, a cured piece of sea bass. I was, I think that was probably one of the best compliments I think you can get is when someone absolutely hates something.
00:18:11
Speaker
and then tries it in a different way and then likes it. and um I think people just need to be a little bit more creative and a little bit more, I don't know, brave. Phish has a really weird stigma around it. Some people just really, really are not open to trying it. but I've just never really, I don't know, I've never really understood that because even if I don't think I like something, I mean, what's the worst going to happen? It's not going to kill me. If I taste it and I don't like it, then I don't order it again. You know, he would need to be a little bit more brave and kind of try things a little bit more, I think.
00:18:44
Speaker
I think just try it. you know I wouldn't go for cured fish as a beginner, personally. I didn't know, to be fair. I would eat it, but you know your your staple is like cod, hake and place. you know I always say place is a good place to start. Pardon the pun. Tagline for place. it's it's a good you know it's It's a subtle flavour, it's soft, it's a white fish, they're not very bony.
00:19:08
Speaker
um because I think that's a big one
Industry Collaboration and Communication
00:19:10
Speaker
as well you know people don't want bones and fish but you know if it's finished and prepped correctly there won't be any bones in it and I think they're really that's a really good place to start to build build that confidence but like you said you just got to be brave jump in buy something fresh and I cannot you know I know everyone says fresh and quality is better but with fish more so, just get as fresh as you can. And I guarantee that it will taste, you know, 10 times better than what you can get in a supermarket that's been pre packed and shipped over from abroad. And, you know, it's been a week in transition and been stored in a warehouse, maybe not the right temperature and makes a huge difference. Yeah, we' we're not sponsored by Morrison's or Tesco. So no, one I've got no issue with them. but
00:19:51
Speaker
needs must sometimes but you know if you can then and that I guess that's another really big thing that it's not something I'd personally seen before is having a fishmonger that supplies to restaurants. Also have an avenue where you can get um fish domestically as well. like usually it's you get the best quality fish from the fishmonger and if you're cooking at home then you just have to get it from the supermarket even in Australia I mean we're surrounded by water and we've got a few fishmongers but it's not it's not like your local butcher way they're everywhere you don't have a fishmonger everywhere and I kind of wonder why that is it was almost at the point where I was looking and thinking should we open up a fishmonger and bath to the public I think
00:20:35
Speaker
It probably comes down to price, I would say, startup off. you know Fish is expensive and in a time like now um when you know money is tight, inflation is high, naturally you naturally you're going to go, I shop as cheap as you can and and it's the right thing to do. I think Accessibility is a huge one as well, you know, fish shops in Cornwall have been struggling, but there's two really successful ones, one in Tyrone, one in Waveridge that stood the test of time and are still doing well. but But especially COVID, you know, online ordering, you know, next day delivery to your door. I think, you know, people like us, you know, the Cornfish month, they've made it really accessible.
00:21:17
Speaker
for people to access fish. And then you've got your cheese monger online, your butcher, your wine merchant, all of those are, you know, you can buy anything online now. And I think, you know, that whole package of people that can just go online and get it next day, DPD overnight, has probably allowed a higher accessibility to fish, but has also reduced the need to go to a fish monger, which is why we really champion it. People just picking up the phone and giving us a call. we've We've got, you know, we've got Lisa amazing.
00:21:47
Speaker
amazing lady on the phones that couldn't answer pretty much every question or if not I can and and it's about you know being the local fishmonger for people but delivering it far more, far easily.
00:21:59
Speaker
I can definitely confirm that. I have 100% asked a couple of really stupid questions on the phone and they've known the answer straight away. There's no such thing as a stupid question, I swear. It's such a complex beastfish. It's you know where it comes from, it's provenance, it's seasons, it's it's preps, it's preparations, you know the way a chef asks for prep.
00:22:18
Speaker
or how they want their fish prepared isn't necessarily how my filters or fishmongers would understand it. So it's a transition and it's about understanding it. So yeah, definitely no, no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to fish. there' there's ah So it's such a complex topic.
00:22:31
Speaker
know, the people in the office taking the orders are extremely knowledgeable, which I think is also a really, really um important part to your business. You know, like when we ring up and we, we want something specific and, you know, like you said, we've got a different language for how we ask for it compared to how it needs to be done and translated to everybody else. So I think those, um that level of understanding is super, super important. Yeah, definitely is needed, you know, especially when you're spending this money on someone that needs to be good and needs to be right at the end of the day as well. So yeah, definitely.
00:23:01
Speaker
I wanted to ask, and you don't have to answer or we can cut it out if you want. um In terms of the business, like obviously you've got your sort of two things. You've got the the supplying to the restaurants and then you've got supplying to the public. Which one, like which one is bigger? Does it sort of make up a a decent split? Because I imagine the Cornish Fishmonger is ah like a very busy business as well.
00:23:24
Speaker
Yeah, we recently um took over one of our competitors, Fisher Thought, based up in Bodmin, and they were pretty much a mirror image for us, I would say, um an online section and a hospitality section. If you're looking at um just pure turnover, just you know what generates the most income,
00:23:45
Speaker
or turnover, I should say, rolling income. It's the hospitality trade, it's restaurants, hotels, parks, we've been doing that for 40 years. Our fleet stretches far as Cornwall on the way to Birmingham, Cardiff, across to Hungerford, door through the Cotswolds, so that would deliver the most. But the online stuff is very expensive to do. Our Google costs are very high packaging costs are very high. um So although it looks expensive, it's not, you know, it's not just for us that to to deliver it online, you know, DPD is expensive, yeah we offer free delivery and, and Google and all those
00:24:22
Speaker
All those costs are enormous. So I guess that's where you want to look at it. But as far as, you know, pure turnover, I would say hospitality is is definitely um and big still still the biggest one. Yeah. And also, you know, you look at the dog and duck, let's say in in bar, you know, their their annual spend is going to be a lot more than Mrs. Smith. and Although there's more Mrs. Smith's in the country.
00:24:44
Speaker
um you need a lot of Mrs Smith's to make up for the dog and duck. So yeah, but it's it's all part of our business. We've got a dedicated team to the online stuff. And now we've got the fish for thought um trade as well. um it's It's definitely a really, really important part of our business.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. but so It's um something that we touched on a little bit earlier. You were mentioning about how farmed fish, how the industry just wouldn't be the same without it and we wouldn't be where we are. What are your what are your thoughts on farmed fish? Because I know um to probably the general public, they almost turn their nose up at farmed fish. And we spoke earlier talking about sort of how people you know you buy farmed meat and you don't really think about it but as soon as you see the label farmed fish it's got a bit of a stigma around it and i thought maybe we could kind of jump into that a bit you i completely agree i i understand the stigma around farmed fish um you know that there are some you know salmon is is a prime one that you know gets in the press a lot but if you look at
00:25:48
Speaker
99% of restaurants buying their chicken or their beef, you know you've got free range, organic, grass fed, corn fed, all of these um parameters that yeah farmers rear their animals to. Fish farming has the same, you know there's there's credentials and there's certificates that they can get. And without farmed fish,
00:26:11
Speaker
ah there'd there'd be even more pressure on um wild stocks. um So for me, I think it holds a really important of thing. And like you said, it's like the bread and butter, it's the, those farm fish, you know, farm bass and farm bream are huge, um really important exports for Greece and Turkey, you know, that they're really important for their GDP. And really important for us on the menus, you know, if you go into 10 restaurants, like I bet five or six of them have got it on their menu, because it's it's a slightly cheaper way of affording you know a good quality fish.
00:26:41
Speaker
not a good quality protein for the menu and it allows a more diversified menu you know wild sea bass has had a lot of pressure on it in the past but that has been turned around by the way it's been managed there's a ban on the fishery um through february and march while it's spawning so all the way from commercial fishing down to anglers um and that has transformed the stock you know we get really, really good landings of wild bass. There'll be days when there's multiple, multiple tons of it on the markets day in, day out um when they're catching it. And that has come from just managing it, but also supplying farm to sea bass, which is, for an intense purpose, exactly the same thing. Just reared out at sea um has allowed you know slightly less pressure on that stock.
00:27:26
Speaker
um So i think it's I think it's a really good thing. you know We stock it, we allow customers to have the choice and um and you can buy their certificates and you know we do all the research onto where we get the fish farms from and that sort of stuff. And it makes a big difference definitely. Yeah, I think there's been um there's been a lot of, ah maybe it's always been there and I'm only just seeing it recently, but um definitely in the last sort of 12 months, I've been seeing a lot of talk about farmed salmon particularly in Scotland, but I don't really know much about sort of why it's just popping up to me now. Is it something that's got a little bit of propaganda around it or just something that the media is taking and running with and a little bit of misinformation? Like what's going on with that? I think.
00:28:10
Speaker
I'm sure if you looked hard enough in any aspect of farming to aquaculture, which is actually what farming in the sea world is, is um aquaculture, you can find, you know, someone that's probably not done right. But I don't like it when it gets blanketed. Yeah, when you know, you find I'm sure if you look to all the all the free range farms, I'm sure you could probably find a free range chicken that probably isn't free range.
00:28:36
Speaker
doesn't mean that all the free-range chicken is. No, not free-range. oh um So yeah, I think i think and maybe maybe a little bit propaganda, but then it also does need the attention not to it because there's always things the fish farms can do better. you know We source our salmon from Scotland. Again, a really important income for for Scotland as a nation and and the UK. They're one of the largest exporters of fish along with Norway.
00:29:03
Speaker
probably the main you know the Faroe Islands and I think Norway and Scotland are probably the largest amount of salmon that comes into the UK but you know Scottish salmon is really important for for the UK again it's a really noticeable protein highly used you know I think smoked salmon you know smoked salmon is pretty much on every cafe menus every breakfast menu you could find and again you know that all comes from from the Scottish salmon so it's really important but anything can be improved. So yeah I think it's good that these things have the attention that it deserves um for people to improve it but it's when that blanket gets put over the top of everything the um that just isn't isn't quite correct in my opinion. Yeah I guess it's important to realise that yes it's a good thing that it's being highlighted but it doesn't necessarily mean that every single farm for salmon in Scotland is a
00:29:56
Speaker
you're sort of approaching it in the same way. Yeah, definitely. You've got Loch Dua, which they're RSPCA Food Assured. They're an amazing farm. We we source their salmon. um I won't go into the facts of them, because I'll be honest with you, I don't know them off the top of my head. But you can just Google them and they they do salmon farming exceptionally well. But I'm finding sort of ah um finding a movement from salmon to trout.
00:30:19
Speaker
Yes. I think in in what people are buying, what people are sourcing, um we did we did quite a lot of them smoke trout for Cheltenham Festival this year. And they wanted trout specifically. And we've got an amazing relationship with a friend of mine called Justin, who actually went to his, my me and my girlfriend actually went to his wedding, um you know, real family friend, and we buy all of his production. And he's the smallest trout farm in the UK, only one in Cornwall, all hand-reared, hand-fed in these huge ponds.
00:30:50
Speaker
um His fish is of like 25% the density to um qualify for organic. um And he's at a quarter of that again. So amazing thing, you know, such a high quality. So, you know, we really try and champion.
00:31:04
Speaker
the trout over salmon if someone wants a choice. um And also supporting Justin, a local guy who's trying. And um again, it's his dad's farm that he's working. So I'm seeing a transition probably from from salmon to trout I think over the next 10 to 15 years. I think there'll be more of a swing. you know Chalkstream trout is the most famous one and as you'll know.
00:31:27
Speaker
and i And yeah, and I think that is ah is is a great way of, you know, because it's slightly lower lower lower impact on the environment, less intense. um So yeah, I think trout will be one of one of the next things over the next sort of decade as to take some pressure off of salmon, I would say.
00:31:44
Speaker
I think I definitely prefer trout and I pretty much always have. And I've tried the trout from, from your friend's trout farm and it is, it's pretty damn good. I'm not, not plugging it or anything like that, but it is, it's pretty good. As far as trout goes, it's really nice. And I think trout tends to be, for me anyway, it tends to be like a little bit less fatty. It's got a slightly milder flavor to it. I think it's, um for me, it's like the the premium salmon, but not, I guess.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think trout, and the fat content is the main one, you know, because these these fish are actually swimming a lot more freedom. I mean, they're working harder. um They're fed a a stricter diet. and um And for that, the protein comes out, you know, far superior, um in my opinion, to salmon.
00:32:31
Speaker
um I wanted to, you sort of mentioned before about how the management of the fisheries and the management of how things are caught. Is that something that they, not necessarily preempt, but do they monitor the stocks and when it's starting to get low, they say, okay, now we're gonna put something in place? Or is it sort of more of a, they they notice it when it's already quite low and then they put something in place? um i I think it's,
00:32:58
Speaker
always it's a constant thing you know every year it gets reviewed you've got the Cornwall Good Seafood Guide um which is an amazing organisation that that grade the fish um one to five one being the best by being um the least and that's a constant thing I don't think it's something that people just wait to then look at you know it's it's a forever thing every day and they look at year classes um and that type of stuff you know so the first sign on ah on a market is if you're still getting all those sizes through the landings but as soon as you lose the little fish or the big fish um then you're losing those year classes so I think it's just monitored it's monitored a lot I think every year um things are graded things are looked at and
00:33:42
Speaker
so yeahs not It's an ongoing basis. It's good. you know We're improving massively. you know the The stocks of fish all do undulate. It's a forever moving curve. um and we are you know in In the 90s, things were a lot different than they are now. But from my opinion, know fish stocks are in really, really good condition.
00:34:00
Speaker
um you know, Brexit's going to change things or has changed things. You know, we're still in a transition period. I think it was a five year transition period or something with the way quotas were going to move around. But if you look at what gets landed and what gets seen out there and by the local boys I speak to, you know, I think that the fisheries are in a great condition, considering perhaps what they were, you know, a few decades ago.
00:34:23
Speaker
Is there anything that's um sort of been off for a little while and then it comes back on? Is there anything sort of trends like that that you're noticing within the movement of the fish at the moment? I think this whole like boom and bust of fish is is quite bad. you know You cycle back a few years and yeah know dogfish was um a huge market, a huge export market. Tons and tons and tons of it would go abroad. you know The quotas were cut massively, no dogfishes were caught. Now they're out there and obviously that's that's allowed the stock to regenerate. Now dogfish can be caught, the market is no longer there.
00:35:03
Speaker
yeah that that that That is no longer there and that boom and bust hasn't helped you know the businesses that did depend on that stock. and And they're no longer here now and that market isn't there. And you could argue that market's just moved to, i'd be and I wasn't around when the dogfish market was there, whatever that was used for, hake, something like that, cod. um But that has really affected and the way the fisheries now works. Now there's you know there's little plenty of dogfish out there, there's a quota for it. And there's no real market for it.
00:35:32
Speaker
So that that whole, we need to steady that curve and, you know, smooth smooth that transition out. and Which, you know, the wild bass, ah you know, I said it earlier, how it's banned for those two months. And that is a huge, it's transformed the fishery. It's a really, really good fishery now. You know, most of the fish took a line, which we source. And that's a really standard one, you know, because the fishermen can pick and choose what fish they they bring in. um And that has allowed that to rejuve rejuvenate. And we haven't had that bass to no bass to bass to no bass we've now just had a you know a curve upwards um so yeah you know that that that that is how i would i would say things need to improve for sure i know i know we spoke a little bit um before when we were just having a quick chat um and we were talking about the the lobster hatcheries now i don't really know anything about lobster hatcheries you need to just simplify it and walk me through it The Lobster Hatchery is an amazing organization so it's I would say internationally renowned, it's based down in Padstow, perfect location and my dad is actually the chairman of the organization, has been for a few years and they specialize in ah university research as well but they're they're really going for the restocking of lobsters effectively so
00:36:53
Speaker
You take ah a female lobster, a hen, a buried hen, and that will have, you know, up to about 20,000 eggs, let's say. In the world, one or two will survive. Not one or two percent, but one or two eggs will survive. And mainly that's because they're ah so when they're when they spawn their pelagic, so they don't settle to the bottom, they're just floating around, and they will get eaten. Naturally, you know, they're floating around and see there's plenty of fish around, they will get eaten.
00:37:22
Speaker
Eventually they do calcify and they do fall to the bottom and then the success rate improves but there's more predators down there so on and so forth. So out of the 20,000 you're probably looking at one or two. The lobster factory look at bringing those lobsters in so the fishermen will land them buried and they will nurture the lobster, I guess you could say, until it spawns, they'll look after the egg, they also eat themselves. So they, um they or eat each other, I should say, so they go into a tank that's constantly moving. So they're, they're constantly flowing. And as they and calcify, they then put them into little pods, keep them separate, and they'll grow them on um through time, then they'll release them. and When, you know, they just they're like a mini lobster, exactly that they're quite small, and they'll go out, and you know, they've released
00:38:08
Speaker
tens of thousands of eggs, maybe hundreds of thousands of eggs over the over the years. And that's what they that's what they champion um it's about restocking. And hopefully we'll see, um you know, for a harvestable lobster, we reckon it's about seven or eight years for a lobster to get to the minimum landing size, which is measured from the back of the eye to the back of the head. um So, you know, over time, we're only going to see again, like alluded to the um the year classes. you know If the if a fish are catching more smaller lobsters that are below the minimum landing size and throwing them back, then um then that's a good sign that there's ah there's a younger fishery there. um But the lobster hatchery is a fascinating organization. They've got PhD students they're doing studying. they're um Every lobster that come in, they take a um genetic sample of. So um in the future, they will be able to trace
00:39:00
Speaker
mother lobsters that come in, you know, in fishermen in 10 years back to see if they came from the lobster hatchery. um Because that will just test a theory really, you know, at the end of the day, this is, you know, it's releasing lobsters into the wild with a much higher success rate of, um or survival rate, I should say. So that genetic testing will be will be really cool.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, because at the moment, I guess they're kind of just blindly releasing them out and crossing their fingers and hoping that what they're doing is working. um There's probably no like measurable way at this moment to figure out you know if if they're actually out there and growing and surviving. But with genetic testing, they can literally trace it back and say, yes, this lobster came from the hatchery.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, they will be able to soon um and that they're also looking at ranching. So it's um lobster grower too, I think. So it's basically a rope sent down with these... um like circular kate about pods, I guess you could say, hanging, and there's loads of them on a stack, they hit them down, the lobster are in them, and then they're just suspended, filter feeding, and they'll grow in there, and they found that that just became an ecosystem of life. It went down with a lobster in each pod, and it came out with, you know, mussels on it, whelps, and starfish in there, and seaweed, and all that other stuff, so it almost created an ecosystem. But yeah, it's it's ah it's a theory, um but I think it's working, you know, and
00:40:22
Speaker
you know, lobsters in Cornwall, only, I believe, I've checked that, them have gone up or down in the, in the casifu guides, and they've rated better. This year, Cornwall is opposed to even our neighbours in Devon.
00:40:38
Speaker
Is that the lobster hatchery? you know You tell me, no one knows. You can't prove it. But the the stocks of lobsters down here, we've had a really good year this year. And and I've spoken to a couple of the fishermen at Newquay and St. Moors, and they are seeing some younger lobsters.
00:40:53
Speaker
There's talk of increasing the minimum landing size up, so another year. you know It's hard to guess how much lobster grows in a year, but they're they're thinking of growing it so many mil. But maybe a maximum landing size could be brought in. you know um The large females and the large males are the breeding stock. So perhaps that could be um ah a way of helping. But any any female lobster that's caught this' um that that's um a breeding will will have a v-notch in the tail. So you can't land any lobster or any female lobster that has any damage to the tail. They'll cut a v-notch out and it just shows the fishermen that's a breeding lobster. They have to throw that back. You can't land them. We can't take them.
00:41:33
Speaker
um But then maybe that shows more males being landed. And does that affect the genetic makeup or the gender makeup, I should say, in the sea, you know, as you're stripping the males out, you know, and putting in the females, the lobster hatchery and then throwing the the females back and you're taking the males out. Is that affecting the the gender? I don't know. um But it's a really, really cool institution. It's amazing charity. um And it's doing some really amazing things, been going for a while and hopefully it goes for a lot longer. And they are the, um yeah, they're the international experts on lobsters.
00:42:05
Speaker
very It sounds like a very complex operation and sort of a lot of good guesswork to try and do some really good change for the ocean and for the lobsters. I think lobsters are really good. you know it's ah It's a premium seafood. you know One lobster is is worth a lot more than one whiting, shall we say, something like that. so yeah there's there's There's benefit in putting time into lobsters over something else, but also you can study them. you know they can They can survive out of water for for a day or um so many hours and um and they they're a lot easier to work with. But lobsters are fascinating. you know they can grow one ah They can grow their claws back. So um you get the crippled lobsters. There is a defence mechanism. They'll pop it off at the joint and then they'll just grow it back, um which is fascinating. And they also
00:42:53
Speaker
They also have no biological clock, so whereas we age and get older, and that's because we photo but um ah photocopy our ourselves, and you know you photocopy a photocopy gets worse and so on and so forth.
00:43:06
Speaker
Because lobster sheds its shell, it creates almost like a perfect copy of itself. And don't ask me for the science behind it, because I do not know it. I will leave that to Lobster Hatchery. But um we had this enormous lobster landed from support. It was a big old chap. And I kid you not, I was down in the factory. This was a fairly years ago when I was still downstairs. And and I was like, we cannot.
00:43:26
Speaker
ah' Sell that i mean it's it's an old chap you know it's seen a lot and i was like we we can't sell that so i said to dallas i should we give it a lobs hatcher and he was like yeah i'll give him a call and it was a male and they were like yeah yeah we'll have him yeah he sounds really good and we sent it in and they were like it's one of the biggest lobsters we've we've ever seen not the biggest ever caught because there's there's a um sticker of that on the floor in the lobs hatchery but nonetheless it was a big old lobster And it was in really good condition. So Doug said, you know, how old is this lobster? And he was like, well, you know, it's really hard to age them. You cut the carapid, they had a head in half and you age it much like a tree. And he said it's really hard without without doing that. But, you know, looking at the size and the feeding in the area, I would say it's probably about 60 to 80 years old, something like that. Jesus. You know, like, oh, that's an old lobster. So the normal question came, Doug was like, go on then, what's the oldest lobster ever? And Ben was like, well,
00:44:17
Speaker
It was caught off the coast of Norway in a troll and it was caught close enough to post-mortem, to be aged. it must It must have been caught in the troll and died in it. So they brought it up and they aged it. And they said that if that lobster was born when Henry VIII was on the throne, they wouldn't be far off. No. About 500 years. yeah how's That's incredible.
00:44:42
Speaker
amazing isn't it they are fascinating fascinating creatures and um you know they want the human human race to live longer you know lobsters you know jellyfish have a sort of very similar thing that they live a long time maybe maybe maybe there's something to have out of lobsters and why why they survive so long who knows but yeah Henry about 500 years this lobster had seen the world and and that's just the one that was caught you know these are going to be quite big they're going to be in areas that aren't fished you know, where's its parents, where's its grandparents, where's its siblings, you know, there's there's going to be older, bigger lobsters out there. And because they can shed their shell, I don't actually know the answer to that question. and Not as big as you think because
00:45:20
Speaker
In theory, they can get as big as they want because they just shed their shell, calcify, grow a new shell, so on and so forth. But when they get to that size to shed their shell, they're very vulnerable and they're very dangerous. but not dangerous It's very dangerous for them. and When they're younger, they shed the shell a lot because they're growing at quite a high rate. you know like a giant When you get to 15, 18, you're sort of fully grown. Same principle with the lobster. When you get up there, they they can eat more food to get bigger. But to shed their shell at that size is is quite hard. So it wasn't as big as you would have thought it was. but In theory, you know, they can they can keep growing, but lobsters are fascinating. Absolutely. And they're really important for Cornwall, you know.
00:45:55
Speaker
I can't believe that they caught one that they think could be 500 years old. Yeah, they reckon just, yeah, 10 of the 8th era. They reckon it's lobster. That's crazy. Pretty cool. Pretty, pretty cool. I'm so glad that you didn't sell your big lobster, that you let grandpa know that that is life doing something else. No, gave a lobster hatchery. They showed up at the seas and they put it back. So, yeah, amazing. Living out his retirement for who who knows how long. Yeah, loves it. Loves it. ah yeah its still Is he still alive?
00:46:23
Speaker
they showed they showed him for a season then in the tanks and they put him back so let's hope so yeah he'll be out there living at the time and yeah you know it's all it's not all about selling what you catch it's about looking after it so yeah especially if you see grandpa you've got to let grandpa go you gotta let him go Oh, that's really nice. after Your parents should be proud. of shit i I guess I wanted to know as well, um can you can you predict trends? um And I guess what I mean is,
00:46:58
Speaker
Things are always moving within the ocean. You've got different groups of fish coming from different areas and what we have here right now doesn't necessarily mean what we're going to have in 20, 30, 40 years time. What do you see sort of happening with the fish coming from different areas? That's a great question. I think with There was a study done about 25 years ago and the scientist tried to map where he thought the havoc would go because, you know, global warming, as much as we want to talk about it, you know, it is a thing and sea temperatures.
00:47:36
Speaker
are changing and different species thrive in different temperatures. So he, 25 years ago, he he sort of mapped out where he thought the Haddock fishery would be and he's smack on the money. It's migrated north for colder waters and they survive much better up there. They thrive much better up there. And recently we've had the Pollock fishery um reduced to um to a no quota and um there's a boater allowed to buy catch so many kilos a month and they can land that, you know, because there is a bit of Pollock out there.
00:48:06
Speaker
but not the volumes that they see fit and that sort of came at quite a quite a quick fall quite a um dramatic it went from being quite a large this whole boom and bust thing I was talking about dogfish you know Pollock quite a lot of it was landed to suddenly zero and that was reviewed and it's a great thing to do you know ah although that you know zero to a hundred is not good um for for the future market of it it's definitely the right thing to do for the fish so I'm not saying that We need to they need to to step that. If that's the best thing to do, absolutely do it. um But why is that? Why has Pollock suddenly moved from being you know quite a large fishery to to zero in in the space of
00:48:50
Speaker
ah few months apparently and that could be because it's been overfished and just not managed correctly or it could be you know similar to the haddock you know pollock haddock cod they're all quite similar has it just migrated north you know their their eggs do not survive that well in in temperatures you know 12 13 degrees and our water doesn't often get below that temp in their spawning season. So have they just naturally migrated north? Are we going to see increased pollock landings up in Scotland, Grimsby in so many years time? I don't i don't know. So has it just moved? You know, no one will really guess. um But over time, we'll be able to study that and watch that. But coming the same theory, you know, as potentially, let's say, Scotland is gaining more pollock. What are we gaining up from the bottom?
00:49:42
Speaker
And we're seeing a lot of the Mediterranean double sucker octopus. So the ones you're down in, you know, Spain, Portugal, the Med. They've been down on the South Coast, St. Moore's, Falmouth, the last couple of years. And and they'll just be caught on the lobster pots. You know, they're going in, they're eating the lobsters, they're eating the crabs, and there's a lot of them around, um and they're getting caught. And they've just migrated naturally. You know, it's that water temp, it's that... food-based you don't know um but they've moved up so that's you know that's something else we can there's always been octopus down here but they're very different species not smaller single sucker and now we've got those big med ones that people love
00:50:19
Speaker
um And the tuna. I mean, the tuna fishery is probably the most notable one that's um maybe in the press or, you know, on the chef's tongues at the minute is east the tuna fishery. And that's an exceptional fishery, I must say. I know those tuners are phenomenal animals. We've had a couple of them in um here on this season. So opened the back end of last year and there was only 10 licenses potentially that could hook and line them. Some boats are allowed a netted bycatch. So, um some of the sardine boats they ring net so they'll drop a net and then they'll steam a circle around the shoal pick up the net that they then dropped and if there's a tuner in their feeding or whatever um they can land that as a vikatch but there was 10 that were licensed for hook and line i think there's 13 now this year um but they have been tagged and releasing them for a few years now so they saw they were tuning out there they've been catching them because you pull them alongside the boat tag them release them track them and so on and so forth and they've deemed that as a
00:51:19
Speaker
as a quotable fishery now, and it opened in July this year. It opened the back end of last year and it shut in December, and then it stayed closed up until July, and um this is the first real year it's it's running, and that's an amazing, amazing, you know, it's it's such an amazing thing. You see these bluefin tuners on the Japanese markets and um over in Asia, and you know, you think they're really cool, and then down here we've got, you know, Monotopy is yellowfin is the main ones, but to have bluefin,
00:51:47
Speaker
It's deemed as one of the best tuners in the world and obviously Cornish Bluefin, I must say, I might be biased, but it's going to be the next best in the world, isn't it? So they're they're amazing creatures. Yeah, we've we've had them um we've had them in um to cut up and you've got to give them the respect that they deserve. They are just evolved for speed and power and the muscle structure on them and and the way that their their body is created is just fascinating but that that's an amazing fishery that we need to make the most of, ah we need to use but also protect and manage and look after and they've definitely done the right thing there.
00:52:22
Speaker
very few boats very few licenses very low quota and um and the landing size you know you can't land anything too small and um and hopefully that'll be a fishery we see thrive down here um for years to come but the fact that we've got tuna in the first place is a sign of a good fishery you've got layers of food and you know you've got the big boys at the top of the food train you know the whales the sharks the tuners the dolphins and then so on and so forth down the line and if there's nothing for the big fish to eat then the medium fish aren't there. if The medium fish aren't theirs because there's nothing for them to eat and so on and so forth. So if you've got that huge, if we've got a fuel full range of the pelagic fish down, you know sardines all the way up to tuners and everything in between, it's a real, I think it's ah it's ah it's a real show of how healthy the fishery is, especially in Cornwall and around the UK, that there is you know a ah biodiversity to allow all of those food chain people to some animals to survive.
00:53:21
Speaker
I remember seeing on all of the sort of Cornish fisheries social media when when some of the tuna was caught and everyone was just, they were so excited to learn some tuna. I didn't quite realize how sort of the significance of it, I guess, um but it's from what you say, it's a very, very rare and important thing. And it just shows that things are moving and things are changing within the fisheries. Things are changing massively. And it's about making sure that we can um
00:53:52
Speaker
move with the times, protect what's coming up and is is there a piece of work to be done to look you know look at what's migrating you know down south in in so many years, are we going to have them in 10, 15, 20, 30 years' time? I don't know the way you know global warming is going to move, but but you know there are pieces. but you know You said you can watch trends. Potentially, there's a way of looking at what's what's moving south and or up from the south. you know What can we make the most of? Pollock, a really important fishery.
00:54:24
Speaker
You know, it was, and and there was a lot of it caught, but you know, that's gone now and we need to refocus. Um, but you know, the very few tuners, although very expensive and you know, really premium is not going to replace the value of the pollock that's moved. So, um,
00:54:44
Speaker
We don't want to say, oh yeah, we'll lose the pollock, but we'll get the tuna because the value is not the same. You know, the fishermen need, you know, we all need that to move and and the wheels to turn. So it's about managing that, you know, that transition. I think, you know, things are different back when dad started, you know, you couldn't even sell gurnard. It would go as, it would go as bait. It would go as crab bait. Now, you know, it's on some really, but i bet you could find it on fair few mission style restaurant menus. You know, it's a premium fish and we we we sell a lot of it.
00:55:11
Speaker
But back then you you couldn't you couldn't get rid of it And I always find that so funny how how the trends go through like things that were very popular 10 years ago now people won't touch it and vice versa things that people saw as bycatch and like you said food for the crab pots is now what you know people even like myself were putting on seven course tasting menus because it's such a Great fish and I think that's that's something that's really important to me. I think is trying to get people to try fish that they I wouldn't see in the supermarket and be that they potentially haven't heard of before because it's really it's really good fun and it's something that I try and work very closely with the my fish suppliers is to say like what have you got what is something that people aren't necessarily taking and then doing a bit of research on it and see what's the best way to cook it in different preparations. I think that's a really fun thing from a chef's perspective is to
00:56:07
Speaker
have the confidence to put something on the menu that they know people might not necessarily have seen before. Yeah, definitely. And it's about making use of everything that's caught. You know, there's over 40 species caught down here and they're all unique and they're all amazing in their own way. And but like you said, yeah, instead of moving away from that, you know, cod, salmon, you know, that haddock, the very traditional fish and trying to branch out to them to other ones and and that's what we try and do on the on the Cornish Fishmonger, if the members of the public that maybe haven't had that access to the knowledge of fish. is um
00:56:41
Speaker
is just to do little short videos on showing it how it's prepped. You know, because you you buy a kilo of gurneid and you probably end up with like 350 grams because they've got quite a big head structure yeah when you filleted it. So um it's about educating and and understanding what to do with the fish as well, I think, is you can eat you can eat fish. But I think it's what to do with it and how to cook it and what goes with it.
00:57:03
Speaker
you know a piece of play ah you know, some place, you know, floured or haddock battered is is very traditional, but what do you do with gurnard? You know, you and i you and I might know, but it's about educating that and putting that on so that, like you said, on your menu that people can see a fish that they haven't eaten before and be inspired to do something with it.
00:57:21
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I just i just think it's really it's really fun. It's the same with, not just with fish, but it's the same with a lot of things. Like we've had a turnip dish circulating our menu for the last two months. And as soon as people see it on the menu, it's on their tasting menu so they can't take it off. But they look at it and they think they're not going to like it because there's not a lot of description about it. But um it's like a turnip prepared in about six different ways. and I think it's the same thing with with anything. It's about taking it and seeing what you can do with it. It doesn't necessarily have to be cod or salmon. you know It doesn't have to be those stock standard things that everybody has on their menu, which you know they have a place. You have a lot of people that don't necessarily like fish, but they'll say, but I eat cotton salmon. And I think that that's because it's probably the only fish that they've maybe been exposed to and the only thing that they've tried. um But it I guess it goes back to what we were saying before. It's just being brave enough to to try something that you don't know. Yeah, definitely.
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. There's so much choice out there. There's so many, so many different things. And, you know, you look at, you look at ray wings, you know, there's, well, I don't know, different, there's blonde rays, thornback rays, you know, there's different types of ray that's landed. They're all very similar, but, you know, Guernard, there's three um top Guernards, red Guernards, gray Guernards. There's, they're different ones again. So there's so many different things out there. And it's about trying to educate people and um and just share share the knowledge and and allow it to be accessible. It's right back to the start, isn't it? you know Make people accessible to two different types of fish to try it. What do you think has um replaced the Pollock? Because I know that when I first moved to England, everyone had Pollock on their menu, and this was only three years ago. um And um I'm from Australia, I don't know if we even have Pollock over there, I doubt it. and what What have you seen that's replaced that? Because it must have been a very big portion of your selling.
00:59:17
Speaker
um Yeah, you know you've got your standard whitefish which is like cod, coley, haddock, hake, pollock, whiting. The quotas were reduced for whiting, pollock and pouting as well. um If I'm honest, I don't really i haven't really seen ah a transition. Like I said, you can still buy it on the market because they're they're still allowed a buy cap, so many kilos per month per boat. We've decided not to buy it since, and um I don't think we've stopped it since that quota change. Some of our customers still ask for it, and and we just say, sorry, we're not.
00:59:51
Speaker
we're not sourcing it. um And I'm sure potentially maybe in so many years it it will come back, it will do a full circle. and But I haven't really seen anything replace it too much. I think that...
01:00:03
Speaker
that tonnage, that usage of white fish, I guess you could say, has probably just migrated through equally through the other species. I'd say haddock's probably the most popular for fish and chips, we definitely do a lot of that. um And cod and hake, you know, hake is ah is ah an amazing um fishery down here that's um MSC.
01:00:21
Speaker
um And that's, you know, that's a really important picture that we need to look after as well. And it is looked after. And you, again, you see those age classes and that's all very similar, you know, it moves, it moves. Are you guys starting to get sort of all geared up for the Christmas season? I can imagine that's a really crazy season for you. Sorry to bring it up so early. Christmas is mental. I've just finished August and we're talking about Christmas. Christmas is mental.
01:00:49
Speaker
um mainly because there's no fish markets between Christmas and New Year. So you have to try and squeeze in, you know, two weeks worth of trade into depends how Christmas falls, but three days possibly. yeah And that that is the hardest part. And obviously the online is it really booms at Christmas, you know, as families coming together celebrating, you know, oysters, blobsters, smoked salmon, crab.
01:01:17
Speaker
prawns, salmon, they'll they'll be the biggest sellers and it's you know it's celebrating and we will start to gear up. and There's a lot of things we can leave and we can just source at Christmas. um Things are naturally higher priced at Christmas and then there's some things that we can source and now and you know and blast freeze and keep them the quality fresh, um the quality up there and um and store ready for Christmas. So yeah we're starting, I've had one Christmas meeting to discuss.
01:01:44
Speaker
Christmas, which umm gives me a bit of PTSD, but it's um it's good fun. um i love Christmas is an amazing time here because it's you know we do get that time off in between Christmas and New Year. um and you know It's such an amazing time for the staff. you know We all pull together and and deliver what needs to be delivered, which is our busiest week of the year all in. and But yeah, it's um it's good fun. It comes without challenges, but yeah, it's good fun. But we're starting now. I imagine it's good fun once it's over. It's probably quite manic and everything is going on everywhere for that sort of week period where you're trying to get everyone's orders fulfilled. And I feel like people are so unforgiving going into Christmas as well. Like even I know myself when you're trying to do those last orders for the restaurant coming up to Christmas and
01:02:30
Speaker
you're just you're trying to guess what everyone's going to order and you're trying to make sure you get everything right and that you've got enough but not too much and it's just so hard and then we put that pressure back on you guys because we're like i need this you have to give it to me please it's hard yeah especially when you're dealing with a perishable item like fish and seafood that i can't just buy you know 10 pallets of a plastic toy and then, you know, if you don't sell it, you hold on to next year. It doesn't work like that. So as much forecast as possible. But yeah, it's that guessing game of trying to source what we need to not let people down. You know, I'm not here to let people down. But if the wind blows Christmas, you know, you're you're dealing with, you know, lives and people and it's one of the most dangerous jobs.
01:03:15
Speaker
um in the country and I think sometimes we we forget that. um the you know the The real cost of fish is is someone's life and you know people have lost their lives. A fishing boat and Dad used to own um back when they first started and went down off of Brixton not too many years ago and some of the crew went down and it's you know it's sad and it it does that is the real cost of it. At Christmas when the wind blows and the fishermen don't want to go out but there's not much I can do about it. Again, we're a bulk caught wild, wild fish. and And that again, full circle back to why farm fish is so important. I think that really fills um the space, um all that transition in in the weather that we so heavily rely on, um especially around Christmas. know The winter notoriously bad weather, um those farm fish can really be really key in allowing a bit more consistency for our customers.
01:04:13
Speaker
and Because if it's if it's not there, can't we can't source it, unfortunately. And that that is the reality. you know I get pre-orders and yeah, I'll wait for the market and it doesn't go out. I've got a mate of mine called James, a young chap who lives out in Mevergissy who catches all of our mackerel. um Really, really nice guy. and His boat's named the Charlotte Amelia after his two daughters.
01:04:34
Speaker
And if he's not going on Thursday, because it's blowing, he doesn't want to get up us too, because he just doesn't feel safe, then we won't have mackerel for the next day. yeah And, then and that's fine. I'm fine with that, because I'm i'm i'm happy to have that movement of fish and, you know, that communication, you know, you can source mackerel from France or Spain, or, you know, something like that, if we wanted to, two but the quality wouldn't be there. And that's also not what we champion, you know, James is exactly what we champion that communication with the, with the fishermen straight out of straight out of the fishing ports you know local guys that are catching inshore boats catching our fish and and if he's not going then then we won't have mackerel that day and i'm and I'm really happy with that because that's that's the communication we need to give to our customers and um and they need to understand that we can't have everything every day. It must be hard though I imagine to to deal with chefs sometimes because I can imagine that they
01:05:28
Speaker
We can get a little bit tunnel vision sometimes um when we place an order and it's on the menu and you know we we know that we need it. And we probably don't always think enough about, okay, was it really shitty weather? Could they not go out? Was it dangerous for them to go out? We kind of just put our blinkers on and just see what we want to see. I can imagine it must be um challenging sometimes when you've got a ah grumpy chef on the other end of the phone too and managed to those relationships.
01:05:56
Speaker
You know, sheffing is a very high pressure environment, which um my dad has has done in so so so I understand it. I haven't lived it. You know, I've worked in some pubs when I was younger, um but I never chef, and but i've but I've seen it. and Yeah, you know, you know, we try our best, we try and source what I, you know, um I run all the pyramids, so I really try my best to source everything all of the time. But sometimes it just isn't possible, you know, I'll move heaven and earth to try and do it. and And sometimes, you know, it's sometimes not even our fault, sometimes transport lets us down, you know, other other external factors.
01:06:31
Speaker
um You know, loctua is a prime example, talking about salmon that's just done right. If the weather's blowing up there and their harvest boat won't go out, then they won't go out. And, you know, I've got, you know, there's restaurants that just have loctua on the menu.
01:06:44
Speaker
um for their reasons and it's the later day this week because of X, Y and Z and there's almost sometimes there's just nothing you can do but we try our best and um and we do quite well and I think trying to move through the species as well is useful you know knowing that if you don't have cod you can have hake if you don't have place you can have megs so on and so forth and trying to move through you know that big monk but you can have smaller monk and um then have turbot you have brill and try and try and um You know move and be a bit more flexible and that's what I tried to as well You know if we can't buy something on the market will buy different species. It's quite similar um So they're not everyone's let down and then we'll try again the next day
01:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, there's always, I think that's probably one of the best things about the fish industry is there is always some kind of replacement that you can have that's not exactly the same, but it is a very similar thing. Like you said, if you don't have turbot, you could go for, for real or halibut. And it's, it's something that would still very much go with whatever dish you had planned. It's just worded differently on the menu, I guess.
01:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. it's um yeah It's about sourcing what you can when you can. And um and again, yeah, like I said, educating, you know, sharing that the wind was blowing or the tide, you know, you're on the spring tide, so the netters can't go out and do the hake, etc, etc, those types of things. and And also when they go out, they don't know where the fish is as well. That's that's the main thing. You know, you' it's a bit of guesswork. And it's about It's about going out there and they're actually going to try and find what they're catching and also not specific. You know, you go out there and um you've got the netters that are shooting and you've got the dogfish. but There's a bit of a quote of a dogfish now, but you know, a few years ago there wasn't. And then the cod, there's a very limited cod quota down here.
01:08:30
Speaker
Again, historic. And um um there's times when Anthony says that he can't can't miss the cod, you know, because you're going for the hake and you shoot the nets and and you can't miss it. So he won't send the boat because it because it's a bycatch. He can't land it for um for for any financial gain, but he still pays the crew, he paid the fuel. um And if you shoot and catch a load of ah load a cod and bring that in, you've you've got to land it.
01:08:57
Speaker
but um uh legally to the shore to show what you're catching and then that will be there's a very limited cod quota in Cornwall which we split through the boats and if one of these big boats goes out and he's shooting for hake and um and he hits cod for whatever reason doesn't want it brings it in they'll weigh it and then they'll take that off of the cod quota off of all the other boats because there's only that amount of cod that's allowed to be landed. It is X amount, whether it's caught in the quota or just by bycatch because it happens. They're all swimming around. you know it It happens, unfortunately. That'll be taken off their quota. So there'll be there'll be times when he won't send the boats because he can't guarantee he's not gonna catch something he can't or can because there's still plenty of fish out there. And that's, it's a moving beast. The fishing industry is really hard to to manage and move
01:09:46
Speaker
and And we need to be as flexible as possible because we're dealing with, again, a boat called Wild Fish that no one knows where it is, unfortunately. It's a guessing game, it's a guessing game. ah Have you ever been out on the boats and gone fishing? I haven't, no. i've Dry land I've stayed on. Dad has, you know, he had he had a couple of boats over the years and has done it all. but um but i I haven't personally gone out catching it, too busy years. Trying to find the time, like you've seen in the kitchen, it's the same principle here, you know, oh yeah, I'll do i'll do a supply visit, et cetera, but in reality, it's so hard to find that time. to yeah I've done some supply visits, I've been to the mussel farms and that type of stuff, you know, mussels are super cool.
01:10:30
Speaker
super cool thing you know the huge carbon capture their their shells are all out of calcium carbonate you know huge carbon capture they're an amazing protein source really healthy and really sustainable you know you can just keep growing it and growing it and growing it and then i've been to some of those so it's about moving moving the usage that you have on the menu through the species through the seasons you know when you can't catch bash those few months um and don't you can't have that you know because if Blanket bang, you know, when place is spawning, um you can still catch it, but they put so much effort into the row and and spawn it and meet yields so that their their quality and quantity reduces massively for the size of the fish. So it's probably best to to to probably not have that on the menu at that time of the year, but then put it on when it's best. And that fluid flexibility of of fish and fishing is i is what I think and more people need to
01:11:27
Speaker
need to take control of and that'll really allow you know some movement through the fish when it's there because you can only buy what's there as you know we cycled back to it and um and what's best on that day like you said you know you call up and you ask what's best and then and that's what we've got.
01:11:42
Speaker
I think that's the most fun thing to do as a chef is, you know, you've, especially if you have a bit of flexibility and a bit of control over the menu that you're working with to, to call up, you know, whatever supplier, your meat supplier, your fish supplier, your veg supplier, and just say, what's the best at the moment? You know, give me, a give me a list of five things of what's the best, give me the prices and figure out what you can do with it. Like it's, it's such an amazing industry and it's all very much intertwined, you know, like chefs and suppliers and all of that. and the more conversations that we have with each other and the more connectivity that we have I think it just kind of it makes everything grow for everyone. Yeah definitely it's that communication we all need to work together I think in you know we've all got a common goal we're all here to support the fishing industry for the future
01:12:31
Speaker
um and for chefs to to and to enjoy the best quality seafood and for members of the public you know to have access to and good quality seafood easily and we've all got a common goal and it's about working together and um and trying to understand that and you know we're not here to work against each other but it's a common goal and And um dad's been here for 40 years and I plan to be here for 40 years. So we need to look we need to look forward. It's about looking for tomorrow as well as
Fishermen's Risks and Support Systems
01:12:59
Speaker
today. I know it's a bit cliche, but with fish, it it really is. It can't be spoken enough.
01:13:07
Speaker
I'm going to ask you a really annoying question and you can take a minute to think about it if you'd like, but is there, is there anything, just a very general thing, I guess, but is there anything within the fishing industry that you wish people, people knew or had a bit more knowledge on?
01:13:25
Speaker
Knowledge on. It could be, it could be ah like a common myth or it could be just like, Oh my God, I wish, I wish that more people knew this fact about it.
01:13:38
Speaker
probably probably the reality of the risk that the fishermen put there per themselves in every time they go fishing. I think, as I said to earlier, that is the real cost of of fish is is the risk that they put themselves in every day. And I think, like you said, I think that needs to be shared more and people need to understand that it is an incredibly dangerous um industry to be in and actually that, you know, that comes at a price and and fish is expensive. um I totally understand that. But and then today it's also expensive to catch in more ways than one, not just financially, but also, you know, mentally. And, um and yeah, I think that understanding of
01:14:28
Speaker
the risks that they put themselves at day in and out in the weather is um it's probably something that I think people should maybe have a bit more access to. Yeah, I think I like that. That's really good. Because even me, you know, if if I can't get what I've ordered, my first knee jerk reaction is to be like, oh, it's probably because of the stupid weather or something. But it doesn't really go further than that. I never really think, well, yeah, OK, but there's actually people out on that boat in that storm trying to catch you your piece of hike that you can cook and put on a plate. You know, like at the end of the day, it's it's just food. um Yeah.
01:15:04
Speaker
You know, people do die. People do die and have have died at sea. So you've got the Fishman's Mission, a fantastic charity that looks to support that. um And obviously you've got the Coast Guard and the RLI and everything that's there to support them. If they ever need it, hopefully they don't. um So yeah, i think I think that would be more on the real cost of fish and would be would be probably be one of my wishes.
01:15:30
Speaker
That's a really nice note. Well, a bit of a morbid one, but a nice note. Yeah. Yeah. I told you it was a horrible question. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for um for taking the time and sort of sharing your knowledge and having a bit of a laugh and putting up with my annoying questions. You're welcome. Thank you for having me on. ne It's great to share what I live and breathe every day. um And it's great to share that with them but you that are interested. An industry that you kind of fell into, but now you want to spend the next 40 years in.
01:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, I fell into it and it was definitely the right decision. you know I ah ah couldn't remember a thing at school. you know it was it was It was hard yeah know because I wasn't interested or engaged in it. But as soon as you put me but me in in the office with them you know percentages of margins and weights and yields, and it it just it just sticks. And and i've got the I've got the brain for it because it's I'm interested and also I'm invested in it. You know, it's it's my name above the door that and my reputation that is on the line. So, you know, I'm here to do the best job possible. And, you know, it's definitely the right decision. I love it. It comes like does have its challenges, you know, it happens. but um But I love it. Yeah. And I've definitely made the right decision. And then, yeah, hopefully I can do the next 40 years. Let's hope so.
Daily Operations and Market Conditions
01:16:44
Speaker
what's on the What's on the books for the rest of the day?
01:16:47
Speaker
What is on the books for the rest of the day? I think had a HOD meeting before this, um or we just set up for the week and m probably lost time now. When I go back, I will end up um probably doing the buying, um doing the procurement and setting up for tomorrow, a sourcing what what online orders we've got, what we've sold today, and um what's going to be on the markets tomorrow and put my um wish list, shall we say, together for the for the buyers on the market. You've got Brickson and New England, the two main markets down here, and um I've got and the main buyer, Gary, who looks after that for me and he'll source everything in the morning and then download that information to me. So the rest of the day will be setting up for tomorrow. I'm always a day ahead. Setting up for some guesswork. for some guesswork. Yep. Educated guessing. Yeah. We'll see. Awesome. Well, enjoy the rest of your day. And again, thank you so much for for having a chat on here. There was so many interesting things. No, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Awesome, mate. Cheers. Thank you.
01:17:42
Speaker
thank you