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Ben Tish - The secrets of the kitchen. Produce over everything, and how to write and publish a cook book
28 Plays1 day ago
Ben Tish joins us on Check On podcast today to talk about his passion for Mediterranean and Moorish cooking. He walks us through where this passion started, some hellish services in the kitchen, and the experiences that shaped him into the chef that he is today. He tells us about his process for writing and publishing his amazing and beautiful recipe books, and where he is at now.
Get ready for the inside scoop on the British power house that is Ben Tish!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Check On podcast. I'm your host, Kasei Fraser. If this is your first time listening, welcome. If you're a day one listener, welcome back. Tonight, Ben Tish joins us for his love of Mediterranean cooking.
00:00:17
Speaker
Sunny flavours, grilled dishes.
Creating Cookbooks: Mediterra and Moorish
00:00:19
Speaker
We're going to dive into his cookbooks, Mediterra and Moorish, and he'll walk us through how he actually crafts a cookbook. From the recipes, to the pages, and then to your kitchen.
00:00:29
Speaker
Please enjoy, Ben Tish. Are you good? yeah Good, thank you. Yeah. me you Technically, can you can you hear me okay? I've got um all good, yeah?
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, all good. All good. fine. Loud and clear.
Early Culinary Influences and Family
00:00:56
Speaker
Have you been working today? or have yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. Working. um Yeah, Monday's quite busy one, just catching up from the weekend. And we had a very, very busy weekend um with the London Marathon. So all our kind of all our sites were mobbed with tourists and drink. bet. Which, I mean, it's great, but it was it was really busy. So everybody looks a bit knackered this morning.
00:01:17
Speaker
um But yeah, no, it's good. It's good. I'm just at the Thomas Cubitt now in one of our private rooms. Oh, nice. Very nice. um Just so you know, I am reading off my phone, so don't think I'm looking at Instagram. Okay, sure.
00:01:32
Speaker
um Can you take me back to the early days of your career and what first pulled you into the kitchen and what was kind of that light bulb moment? Yeah, absolutely. um So I came from, ah I suppose, um family-wise. So we were quite foodie as a family, but not really cooking at home. So my parents were very busy they had their own kind of business and mum was also a school teacher so um it wasn't much cooking at home but we did go away quite a lot to France um we we had some my parents had some friends so we did lots of foodie tours around France and I was going with them on quite an early age um so I suppose that I guess stuck with me um and I really enjoyed it
00:02:17
Speaker
And we'd we you know I'd get taken out to kind of ah restaurants and things like that. So i was kind of, that was kind of, I guess that foodiness was kind of yeah built in me at an early age, although I didn't think I was gonna be a chef or anything like that, but i was definitely interested.
00:02:33
Speaker
um And then um I spent also some time with my gran, my dad's mum, who um was a really good cook. um Jewish kind of Jewish grandmother um but so she was all about cooking at home and everything she made even thinking about it now everything she made was absolutely delicious you know it could be like the simplest sandwich up to like you know a kind of an amazing kind of like Jewish you know kind of feast but it was always really good and like you know
00:03:04
Speaker
sounds a bit kind of, you know, cliche, but you she did make things with love and, you know, and it was, you could tell, you know, you can tell when somebody's put some love into some food. um And so that was definitely also, I guess, a bit of an inspiration.
Professional Beginnings: Mentorship and the Ritz
00:03:18
Speaker
So what happened? i did my A-levels and then had a year out, didn't really kind, of didn't really know what I wanted to do. No, I didn't want to go to university. And then um A friend of mine who's a well-known chef also from Skegness in Lincolnshire I'm from originally, he's called Jason Atherton.
00:03:37
Speaker
and he um We were kind of mates and he was a few years older me, he'd already spent some time in London. And he came back to Skegness, where I was kind of just knocking about doing nothing, ah to set up a restaurant in a local golfing hotel, um which, you know, it's a bit of a bad move, but not for me, because I ended up going to work for him, like kind of as a cave the kitchen porter. And then, you know, very quickly, there's only two of us in the kitchen anyway, because it's like me and him.
00:04:06
Speaker
and And then I kind of became his like you know assistant chef or whatever with zero experience. And and it was it looking back, it was brilliant. He'd you know he'd already worked for um some sensational chefs um you know in the early days, such as Marco Pierre White, Nico Ledenis, Pierre Kaufman. And so he got all that under his belt at a really an early age and then decided to come back to go and soak in this restaurant.
00:04:31
Speaker
So we were doing all that kind of food. Skegness was not ready for it. um You know, Skegness is kind of a... a seaside town in Lincolnshire, which, you know, it's, it's got its charms, but you know, it's not a foodie place. And so just, they weren't ready for it.
00:04:47
Speaker
So he suggested to me, he said, look, you know, what you need to do is kind of go to college, get a bit of catering college under your belt and then go to London. That's, that's, if you want to, you know, like he'd already given me the bug, um, cause he was so enthusiastic and passionate. So I went to college, catering college for, for a short while.
00:05:02
Speaker
not not for very long. um And then Jason managed to get me a job in London at the Ritz, which was very, very lucky to get that because, you know, I'd literally got six months experience with him. I hadn't, and working in a really quiet restaurant So going there, I thought, i'd I guess I kind of, you know, I'd got a bit of confidence, but it was soon knocked to ah soon knocks out of me, um you know, going to going to work at The Rich. David Nichols was head chef there, executive chef. And it was, you know, extremely busy, five-star hotel, 50 chefs in the kitchen, um you know, all that kind of, you know, it was just, you know, and a big culture shop movie moving from Skegness to London, where I was staying at this place called the PM Club.
00:05:51
Speaker
which was in Earl's Court, which doesn't exist anymore. But it was like it it was kind of like a glorified hostel for chefs and front of house to stay. And you used to pay ยฃ50 a week and you get a room and and all that, share a room and that kind of thing. And it was just like a hub for hospitality. It's really good, actually, you know, ยฃ50 a week. And then think I was getting paid at the time, think something like ยฃ110, ยฃ120
00:06:19
Speaker
So 50 pound a week at the hostel, then travel. And I was left with about 50 pound a week. Yeah. It was just quite tight. even Not even that, I don't know, but, but I was working a lot. um And there was a brilliant canteen at the Ritz. So you could just eat every, you know, food was, was great. So, so it had, you it had its pluses.
00:06:39
Speaker
So I did that for a while, two years, well, two years actually. And I was doing, you know, fairly menial things to begin with. and one One of the things I started doing was working, we've got this place called the Palm Court at the Ritz, which is like the afternoon tea service, which is monstrous.
00:06:56
Speaker
um And you've got one whole room just to make afternoon tea sandwiches. So I was doing that. um and And then ah got moved then onto the the garnish section in the main kitchen, which was lots of back in the day, turning vegetables and, you know, all that kind of lots of different knife cuts of, you know, ridiculous things that,
00:07:15
Speaker
really kind of ten doesn't really matter but um but doing all that and then yeah and then did a bit on the pastry and then after that um I moved to a restaurant nearby um that was just open called Coast which was kind of like mid 90s mid to late 90s and ah so at this stage at the Ritz I think um I was enjoying being in London but I wasn't enjoying being a chef I think I didn't like it I you know it was I didn't want to quit because I thought, you know, but it wasn't because, you know, I didn't feel passionate
Revitalization at Coast and Michelin Star Experiences
00:07:51
Speaker
about food or anything like that. It was just like, it was hard labor.
00:07:54
Speaker
um And I got to kind of, you know, spend some time in London. So you know, I was still not convinced, but I'd kind of committed to it, if you know what I mean. Yeah. And then, so yeah, then moved to this restaurant called Coast, which kind of definitely changed direction for me. So it was amazing um restaurant owned by Oliver Paynton.
00:08:15
Speaker
um And the head chef was Steve Terry, um who, brilliant chef, um you know, he'd worked for Marco and then he'd spent a lot of time in California. and Australia. And so he'd opened this restaurant called Coast, which was groundbreaking at the time. it was, I suppose it was kind of, the food was quite kind of Pacific Rim cooking.
00:08:35
Speaker
um So it was like a lot, quite classic, big, very big restaurant. It was like 200 covers. wow it was a Yeah. Huge restaurant. um Very cool. um And like, you know, very kind of of the moment. It was the same restaurant as um same group as Atlantic Bar and Grill, which was another big,
00:08:52
Speaker
kind of cool thing in the, in the, in the nineties. Um, and so it was all like lots of artists and pop stars and things used to go there, but the food was, uh, took influences from all around the world, you know, kind of, you know, Asia and and kind of, but, but molded, molded into,
00:09:10
Speaker
um I spent, you know, with with with the foundation of being a kind of classical French cuisine. Anyway, it was a, it was a roaring success. Absolutely loved it. um I was there for a couple of years and it was just, ah that for me was one, I got kind of passionate about food, but I understood like the the whole thing about hospitality and the excitement camaraderie of working in like a kitchen where it was, it was a much smaller kitchen, um but some great,
00:09:36
Speaker
um Chefs went were in there at the time. was out I mean, I was a commie chef. i was I was at the bottom. But, um you know, there was Jason Atherton actually came back to work there, Stephen Terry, Dan Leppard, Mark Sargent, Hal Jones, so Josh Emmett. So there's a lot of really chefs that have gone on to kind of win their own Michelin stars. And it was that kind of environment.
00:09:58
Speaker
And we were all mates. And I still keep in touch with everybody from that kitchen, you know, now. um way I couldn't probably say that about a lot of other places that i worked. So it was a moment in time that was brilliant.
00:10:11
Speaker
um So I did that. And then after that, I went and worked... ah for a short period of time at Lauren j which is Marcus Waring's Michelin star restaurant when he worked for Gordon Ramsay so he's there for a short period of time didn't particularly like that so he's only there for about six months.
00:10:32
Speaker
i didn't like it? Just didn't like the environment um and um I suppose looking back really the food was ah very very kind of it was very very fine dining very kind of you know ah you know, fiddly and elaborate. And I just didn't like the culture and the vibe, if the truth be known.
00:10:52
Speaker
So I didn't stay there for long. um And then i did a couple of other, after that, I'd kind of like, it was kind of, I suppose, a bit of a crossroads about what to do. And then um I went and worked at a restaurant ah that a friend of mine opened who'd worked at Coast called, um it was actually in Blackheath and it was called One Long Terrace.
00:11:14
Speaker
And it was very similar to kind of Coast, um but I suppose but it was more of a neighborhood type place, but it was really good. I did that for a year. um And then after that, um Steve Terry was kind of back on the scene and we he opened a restaurant called Frith Street Restaurant, which is on Frith Street in Soho.
00:11:35
Speaker
um And that was a really amazing experience. It was it was only um for a year and a half. I was only there for a year and a half, but it was... um fine dining, but in a very kind of, I suppose, a um very innovative looking back back on it. And again, a really good camaraderie.
00:11:56
Speaker
Jason Atherton came worked as his sous chef. um And we were just all there all the time kind of cooking and it was quite busy. a Very small brigade. There was only one brigade. So you worked, you know, you worked, I think we were closed Sundays and Mondays, I think. So everybody worked for the rest of the time. You know, we were just there and learnt loads. Absolutely thoroughly enjoyed that.
00:12:21
Speaker
um And that was a real, you know, it was very it was very hard work as all these places were those days. um But just didn't mind. There was like a common goal to kind of, you know, get, you know, get the best food out. And I learned loads there. That was probably, ah you know, because it was so intense and such a, you know, you were there so much, probably ah did two years work in a year, that kind of thing.
00:12:42
Speaker
and And yeah, that was that was just a really, really kind of amazing experience. And then, um and then after that, there's a bit of an unusual scenario. So the company that owned that restaurant, A to um they were rejigging stuff that that was going on in the company. They'd got maybe six or seven restaurants, different types. And so they were going to close for a street restaurant and reopen it, at something else, and then move for a street restaurant to somewhere else.
00:13:10
Speaker
And so there was a period of time where they were like, well, you can but you can be deployed within the group to different places until the next thing happens. So at this stage, I was kind of like a junior sous chef level.
00:13:21
Speaker
um And so an opportunity came up for me to go and work at a place called Al Duca, Al Duca, sorry, which was Italian. um And I suppose my only real kind of experience of Italian food at that time was like the Trattoria, you know, because it was this was kind of like late 90s, 2000. So there weren't any cool Italian restaurants per se, apart from perhaps...
00:13:44
Speaker
ah lockoty you know Giorgio Locatelli was probably the only well-known Italian chef. yeah So it was all like kind of pizza pasta. And so this guy um opened had opened an Italian restaurant. He'd worked for Locatelli.
00:13:59
Speaker
His name was, what was the chef's name? can't remember now. It will come back to me. But anyway, so I went over there to support them. and They needed some staff. And i think that, again, was ah a pivotal moment for me because i I'd probably been there for a few weeks.
00:14:14
Speaker
And it was just a completely different experience from any other restaurant I worked for in that and it was... um
00:14:24
Speaker
I suppose very of now how how how
Embracing Mediterranean Cuisine
00:14:27
Speaker
chefs kind of a lot chefs cook now. So it was obviously very seasonal, which really working at those restaurants before that wasn't really seasonal. didn't really talk about seasonality or, you know, it it was more about the presentation of food and how things looked and, you know, but this was all about seasonality and the chefs were mostly Italian in the kitchen.
00:14:48
Speaker
um and everybody was really passionate about all the lemons that were coming in and this and that and you know the turnip tops and whatever it was. And there was cook there was there was cooking over a wood grill, which I'd never seen before. That was kind of a new thing, so which was obviously very yeah of the moment.
00:15:05
Speaker
um And absolutely fell in love with it. And I thought this is actually the style of food that I could probably, you know, now kind of, you know, want to really get into above and beyond, you know, Michelin star and French and kind of classic, you know.
00:15:19
Speaker
And, you know, it was very simple food, really simple, like something from the grill, some vegetables, you know, salsa verde, that kind of thing, you know, like quite river cafe type, you know, fresh pasta, obviously. um And so, yeah. And then, so, and and anyway, long and short of it, i so I ended up staying there for,
00:15:36
Speaker
uh two years so i kind of moved on i said to steve terry and i said look you know i'm gonna do this now this is you know i found i kind of found my calling um if you like and so spent some time uh two years there really really loved it and then um i also that so then then i actually moved to scotland it was a weird thing yeah so um Yeah, how did it come about? i Basically, somebody I knew... um so while while I'd done that period at co Catering College, very short period at Catering College, I did a stage. They put you on placements.
00:16:15
Speaker
And one of the placements they have is this place called the Crinnan Hotel, which is in the West Highlands, right at very far... up it's near oban so it's kind of like you know long very remote kind of fishing and fishing port with a hotel a pub cafe few houses that was it but you know most amazing location um and you know fresh seafood straight out the boat straight literally straight into the back door of the of the the hotel and all that kind of amazing stuff so i've done that for a couple of weeks when i was at college and
00:16:49
Speaker
while While I was at Old Duca, the owner of the hotel happened to be in London, knew I was there. And anyway, came saw me. And a few weeks later, called up and you fancy coming and taking over the reins of the hotel as as as head chef? So I was like, yeah, why not?
00:17:04
Speaker
and How old were you at this point? um twenty eight 28 29 something like that around that time so quite you still quite quite you know quite young and you I didn't really have any ties per se so it was easy to do that it was like you within a month I'd moved up there and with you know with my girlfriend at the time and yeah and then and you know it was it was it was really good I was there for three years in total and looking back on it
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, I had great time. I think the only thing is, it was like you know because it was so remote and I was still quite young, I did miss London. you know You could go to Glasgow or Edinburgh, but you know you were still in the absolute middle of nowhere. And then it was it was quite challenging to manage because in the summer...
00:17:53
Speaker
It was absolutely packed, you know, from like the whole seasonal thing. And then in the winter, it was dead. So, you know, but you'd still need to be open. It was a hotel. Some nights you'd be, you'd do no nobody or, you know, and I, you know, I'd been, I'd managed buy a house when I was at this, bought a house, which was like 15 miles away from the hotel. It was all kind of like that.
00:18:12
Speaker
And, you know, i remember kind of being at home on a cold, like February evening or something, you know, it's like, and then get, and nobody in the head said, gone home. And then you get a call saying, oh, actually got two check-in. So I'd like have to drive back, you know, across like the, you know, the West Highlands and, know,
00:18:30
Speaker
You know, and so so there was those those kind of things, but it was really good. And, you know, I did some good stuff up there. I think, you know, we got a good newcomer in the Good Food Guide and all sorts of things like that. And it was a monster to manage. you got There was a restaurant, there was a seafood restaurant, so there was normal restaurant, seafood restaurant, um a pub.
00:18:49
Speaker
cafe So it was quite, you know, it was a lot. And I suppose it was a bit of a baptism of fire because I was still quite junior in a way in my role. So that really kind of, you know, it was it was it was a lot. um And then, so did that three years and it was like, it's time to get back to London, you know, still got, you know, some opportunities. and So moved back to London um and then just spent a bit of time checking out what's going on and like the restaurant scene back then. So this was kind of like 2003, 2004, something like that, 2003.
00:19:19
Speaker
two thousand three um And yeah, and then i there's a ah restaurant was opening um that I'd read about and
Salt Yard and Mediterranean Ventures
00:19:29
Speaker
it was for a contact called Saltyard.
00:19:32
Speaker
and ah which was um quite a brand new concept with focus on kind of charcuterie and the food was going to be a mix of kind of Spain and Italy, like Mediterranean.
00:19:44
Speaker
So i went to meet um one of the the founders and we got chatting and i cooked some food for them and, you know, Anyway, Longstreet kind of got got the job. And then pretty quickly, you know, Salt Yard hit the ground running. It was quite a... It was over in Goode Street. It's actually still there, but it's different owners now. um And yeah, we kind of hit the ground running with that.
00:20:12
Speaker
And pretty soon I became a partner um and invested in the business myself. um And we opened several other places. Dehessa in Soho, MBR in Soho.
00:20:24
Speaker
um and Opera Tavern in Covent Garden. So these kind of all similar things, but with a focus on you know Mediterranean small plates, which you know at the time was was quite a new thing, and charcuterie and you know quality produce.
00:20:39
Speaker
And yeah, and that was a bit, we wrote a couple of cookbooks while um when we were doing that. And I was i was with Saltyard for... 12 years and total. So it was kind of a big chunk of my career.
00:20:52
Speaker
And then we sold um sold sold the group, which was all good and fine. and then And then after that, I had a bit of time out to just take stock and then ended up partnering up with um the Stafford Collection, which is, they have the Stafford Hotel in St. James's.
00:21:16
Speaker
on the proviso that we'd open a restaurant together um ah separate to the hotel. So I took over the running of the hotel, which was fine, you know, very kind of old school, five-star hotel. It's quite small, but, you know, it was very, you know, it was... you Do you know it at all? Do you know where... Do you know the staff? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, do. Yeah, yeah so, um yeah, it's actually just around the corner from the Ritz.
00:21:40
Speaker
And then i got a concept for a restaurant that I wanted to do, which was basically based on Sicily. And so kind of with focus on Sicilian food. um So we we we got that off the ground, opened a restaurant called Norma, which was on Charlotte Street.
00:21:55
Speaker
I have been. You've been, yeah. Delicious. Yeah, good, good, good to hear. Well, I'm not that, you don't I don't have any part of part in it now, but um ah yeah, it was great. I mean, that was, it was ah a whirlwind kind of couple of years and then, you know, it happened as well over COVID. So there was that period of time where it was all kind of,
00:22:13
Speaker
you know, open, not open, open, not open. Then we were doing, you know, looking back on that, doing all our kind of DIY food kits and things like that, that everybody was doing. But, you know, yeah it was good. It was a really good experience. um But ultimately, you know, after three or four years with that company, I decided it was time to move on and do something else. And then, um then,
00:22:40
Speaker
I got, ah we basically got involved with Cubit House, which is what i'm doing now, which great. So it's a group. Well, when i when I joined the the new exec team, we had five pubs, all kind of central London pubs um from Chelsea to Belgravia and then over into the West End.
00:23:05
Speaker
And then the idea was that we would take the existing portfolio, renovate the existing portfolio and kind of, you know, cause it yeah ah it lost its way a bit. Some beautiful, you know, kind of grade two listed pubs.
00:23:19
Speaker
um But after COVID and various kind of, bad investments and things like that. The group had had slightly lost its way. So the idea was that myself um and some other ah parts of the exec team, Sam and Georgie Pierman, who the co-chairs, come on board with investment and and kind of you know reinvigorate the group and grow it.
00:23:40
Speaker
So now we have eight pubs. um Most of them have been renovated. And yeah, let's keep it house. It's, um yeah, kind of, this is my...
00:23:52
Speaker
fourth year or going into my fourth year of of it and yeah it's brilliant I mean I I love it I I think you know i didn't know if I would ever kind of get into pubs but I mean they are food led um and yeah I think pubs are actually kind of having a quite an interesting time at the minute um you know we just we're doing all we you know we're always doing all sorts of things um we've just um opened a project over one of our pubs down the road called the Alfred Tennyson which is on Motcom Street we've just done I made a opened a restaurant up on the first floor called Alfie's which is kind of quite quite I suppose like a
00:24:34
Speaker
old school kind of table service style restaurant. So, you know, we're doing baked Alaska and souffle and we have a steak tartare trolley but where you can have your steak tartare mixed at the table to taste.
00:24:47
Speaker
We've got a great chef there. so all the all the pubs have their own chefs and, um you know, who who do their own menus with, know, kind of my oversight and direction.
00:24:58
Speaker
um And yeah, and that's where we are now. It sounds like from the Ritz, which probably felt like a little bit clinical and changing over staff and stuff like that, to where you you sort of spent your second stint with Steve and Terry.
00:25:15
Speaker
It sounds like the whole like camaraderie and everyone's in for the same sort of direction is what you really thrived off. Do you think that would be... Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And I think, yes, I think that was really important. And, you know, we used to, um yeah, the camaraderie and we used to go out and, you know, after after work together and everybody got each other's backs.
00:25:38
Speaker
And i yeah I think everybody was genuine, like the the passion for the food was and were was infectious there. You know, you could not be really there... and not be interested in the food. Do you know what I mean? It was just infectious. Whereas somewhere like the Ritz, I'm not saying it's like that now, I'm sure it's quite different with John Williams, but it was everybody used to come in, they used to kind of check in and out and it was very, yeah, as you said, very kind of clinical and very...
00:26:05
Speaker
cooking by numbers almost, you know, and it was just people just get into it. They just couldn't wait to get out, you know, and that kind of thing. And it was just, it was just so different. Yeah. A job, a job. And, and yeah, the coast was was a very, a very different thing. um You know, I remember a couple of nights where we've been so busy that we'd stay after work and work until three, four o'clock in the morning. If you didn't have, you know, and, you know, and, and that would be,
00:26:33
Speaker
you just you put your hand up and do that and it was just you know there was a a core team there that were you know everybody kind of I wouldn't say worship but you know they were inspiring and you know you wanted you wanted the place to work yeah I mean it was ah unique you know I don't think you probably get too many of those environments um but like say you know I'm friends with everybody fall off the back of that and uh yeah that was it was game-changing yeah It sounds like it was also a really intense environment as well, though, like in in a good way, I'm sure. But there must have been some some really sketchy and hellish services as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, very much so. I mean, ah absolutely. I think, um it one, it was very it was really busy. So I guess we were trying to do this type this food that was pretty technical, you know, with...
00:27:25
Speaker
and but with huge numbers. So yeah, it got, it used to get really, really challenging. Um, and I think, um, it was quite high profile as well in that, um,
00:27:40
Speaker
you know, you get lots of, we were aware that there was lots of kind of, you know, celebrities and VIPs coming in. So the pressure was always always kind of on with that. um And, yeah, I think, um yeah, i mean, and just getting, you know, there's lots of time where you just constantly on your, you know, on the back foot with prep and so on. And I always seem to be, I mean, I was pretty low down the ladder. So i was always seemed to be the one that was kind of, you know,
00:28:09
Speaker
i was I was often in the shit, so to speak. But, you know, but people people would help me get through. But, yeah, you used to go in there some mornings, like you you start work at 8 o'clock, you used to look at the mise en place list and you were like, this is just absolutely ridiculous. I just i don't know how I'm going to get through this, but you did.
00:28:28
Speaker
And then, you know, and then often you do in those days, it would be like three doubles or whatever in a row. So you'd have that the start of three doubles, then it'd be like that every morning. It was just, oh it was just, but, but, you know, but, but fun at the same time.
00:28:42
Speaker
um It was always a laugh. And, you know, we used to, it was in the days where you'd get a break and then we'd get, we'd all go, you know, looking back and we'd all go to the pub in our break. You know, you know, those things just don't happen now. I mean, I couldn't even dream of like, you're going to have a couple of pints the afternoon. don't want to go to sleep, but we used to do that, go to the pub in the afternoon and then off, you know, and we were all young and then we used to go out sometimes all night, you know, and then go back, you know, and then get get into work the next morning and all that kind of thing. So, um so they, they were kind of quite tough, tough mornings, but, um but yeah, no, it was, it was really good, it's a really good time actually. Yeah.
00:29:19
Speaker
Do you remember, like, are there any particular services that stand out where it was just like, how am I going to get through this? Yeah, I do. Yeah, no, no, I mean, there's been loads. I mean, I do remember one where, I mean, you know, Steve Terry, who's the who's the chef there, I mean, he was and he still is a really good friend of mine. you know I love him to death, but he had worked he had worked for...
00:29:41
Speaker
And he was very he was quite chilled out for that calibre of chef. You know, he was different and he was kind of quite, you know, practical and, you know, understood that things would go wrong.
00:29:52
Speaker
But he did have a he did have a bit of a side to him and he'd know he'd worked for Marco Pio, right, and all this, that and the other. So, you know, it's understandable. But I do remember once that we used to have these... um We'd always have a ravioli on because he loved making pasta. So we'd always have.
00:30:07
Speaker
So, you know, and they were always really, really popular. And he was a stickler for making sure that they were really good. And this, this again, is a bit tricky because you were doing ravioli. He wanted to do Michelin star style ravioli for like, you know,
00:30:24
Speaker
150 for lunch and 200 for dinner, you know, so he got that slightly wrong. Looking back on it now, I think I'm qualified to say that he could have been a bit more understanding on that. But anyway, so we used to make raviolis in the afternoon and, you know, I'd made them kind of all one,
00:30:39
Speaker
one day and they weren't that they weren't that good and what and so what happened was at the beginning it was this was right at the beginning of service and he wouldn't he was very stubborn Steve so my first round I put my first ravioli so it was like five ravioli proportion with the common what it was and some of them had burst you know so the raviolis had opened up in the water and you know they let in water so they just weren't they weren't very good so I but I'd sent it to the pass this was like six o'clock and eat so just the start of service and
00:31:11
Speaker
And so I thought I'm going to try and get this one by him, you know, and put the sauce over it, whatever. Anyway, lo and behold, he noticed. And so I'm doing something else. The next thing I know is like this ravioli hits me on the back of the head.
00:31:24
Speaker
one ravioli. And I could see all the other chefs look at like looking and having a bit of a giggle. And then he was like, chef, yeah. So and anyway, really let go. He says, I'm not sending these. He said, we've got 200 covers on these tonight.
00:31:38
Speaker
I need another ravioli. So did another one. Lo and behold, Some of them had broke and i was like, oh my God, this is this is not gonna go well. And all the like all the checks are coming on and um he's he he says, i'm look um this is not um I'm not taking this off the menu.
00:31:54
Speaker
You need to get this fixed now. yeah We've got 200 covers. So anyway, what what ended up happening is load of, yeah everybody kind of helped in terms of, so set up the pasta machine, to made more raviolis. And this was like all my all the team. So I was like super embarrassed.
00:32:11
Speaker
feeling really sheepish that this was going on just at the start of service. And then I managed to get that portion of ravioli. Anyway, it was just a nightmare for like an hour and a half. And I was feeling really, you know, kind of, it was a nightmare.
00:32:25
Speaker
But everybody, and everybody's like, you fucking idiot. You know, and, but anyway, you got through Everybody helped me make raviolis. to get me through that service. And that was it. And then, you know, but that that's, I still think about that, actually.
00:32:38
Speaker
But that was some of just like' got a mental scar on that one. But he wasn't going to take them off the menu, that's for sure. So... It probably taught you something, though, I guess. Yeah, totally. Make sure your raviolis don't burst, basically. That's a huge mission, though. Five ravioli per portion. You've got 200 people on the books.
00:32:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's huge. Yeah, that's what I say. There were some dishes um that were just not practical for that. But he was very, you know, this is what we're doing. that's That's it. And that's why, you know, sometimes we were there until four in the morning trying to get prepped together. Yeah.
00:33:11
Speaker
Trying to stock back up on your ravioli. Yeah, exactly. No, they do stick with you though. um So after after quite a few years in sort of fine dining establishments, you then moved more towards Mediterranean and Sicilian cuisine. Yeah.
Mediterranean Travels and Culinary Evolution
00:33:28
Speaker
Was it that one experience that you had that really drew you towards that? And and why did you feel drawn towards that? Yeah. So, yeah, I think, yeah, it was, i think it was the, el it was El Duca.
00:33:40
Speaker
That experience definitely drew me towards that um in in terms of food. I mean, I'd been, you know, on holidays to Mediterranean locations before that, but,
00:33:52
Speaker
and and kind of enjoyed the food, but never really thought about it as a kind of ah a direction. um But yeah, I think what I liked about it, I liked the simplicity of it. i found the simplicity refreshing.
00:34:04
Speaker
um And, um you know, I kind of like simple food and simple cooking now. You know, I can't bear things that are over labored or, you know,
00:34:15
Speaker
rather put less ah less on a plate than more on a plate and this kind of thing. And seasonality, obviously, know, know it's, again, you know, it's a bit of a cliche, but it is really important. It's, you know, it's always best, like flavor-wise, you know, commercially and this, that and the other. So, you know, even now I'm really quite strict on seasonality with my chefs. You know, they've got to be seasonal. You know, it's a lot easier than it used to be.
00:34:45
Speaker
But I think, you know, the the the commitment to that at Alduka was refreshing because I've never really seen that before and the passion for the for the for the ingredient and the produce and, um and Yeah, and and you know and the and I was working with a whole, you know mainly Italians, which I found really, you know i loved. i mean, it was infuriating also in lots of ways. Especially when there's lot of them together, was kind like the minority.
00:35:12
Speaker
you know especially when there's a lot of them together you know i was kind of like in the minor minority And you know they were they Yeah, theyre they're incredibly passionate about food, but I suppose my Michelin star background at that stage didn't, you know, probably didn' didn't rub well with it. do you know what I mean? I was kind of like very everything had to be clean and, you know, how I was doing things. And they were like, oh, you know, a bit slapdash.
00:35:37
Speaker
um but you know i But I made a really good friend there. So one of the sous chefs, guy called Guido Trombatoni, we just got on really well and and I went with him.
00:35:50
Speaker
So he left after a year and i ah he he opened a restaurant in Umbria. And I went with him for a couple of weeks. It was part holiday, but partly to help him set it up. So he asked me to go out and we kind of set this, we did a tasting for the team and this. It was an amazing experience. We stayed with his family and his family were a lovely family, but, you know, just getting a real insight Italian of household where, you know,
00:36:17
Speaker
italian kind of household where you know, everything would stop for lunch and, you know, and whatever you were doing, out your restaurant you know, we'd go back to his family's home for lunch. We'd have a bottle of wine and, you know, and they, you know, they would have made fresh pasta. And I don't know. And that that's, that's, I don't know. It's kind of quite common now, but then it was like, really like, wow, this is really kind of hooking me into, you know, what the food direction I want to go. And perhaps, know,
00:36:43
Speaker
um you know, move you know somewhere in the Mediterranean, you know, or, you know, that kind of thing. Anyway, um yeah, that that was the moment that hooked me in. and and And for those reasons, and so that's, I suppose, ah did a bit of that in in Scotland and the produce. It was definitely produce-led simply because it had to be and Scotland.
00:37:06
Speaker
you know supply you know i used back then it was like a supply some deliveries would be once a week um you know it was really remote so i would rely on local farms and the fishermen and that kind of thing really had to just because there was no there was no way around it um so all that tied into it but then yeah and then i think when i got to salt yard which is the main bit you know that where i really carried it through then i started traveling quite a lot um around the Mediterranean, obviously Spain, Italy, but all the bits in between.
00:37:38
Speaker
um And as time got on, yeah I was traveling quite a lot while when I wasn't working. And I began to fall in love with um like the...
00:37:49
Speaker
the Moorish aspect of the Mediterranean, um like the kind of, you know, the the Arabic influence on some of the cuisines. and um And so that was another element for for me. But yeah, I mean, just that whole thing, a whole thing I love.
00:38:04
Speaker
Yeah. Did you ever find a challenging, i guess sort of when you were starting doing this, it was like you said, it was quite new. There weren't a lot of sort of really upmarket Mediterranean restaurants around.
00:38:18
Speaker
Did you find it hard to try and still keep it classic and respect the traditions about what um you had learned, but also putting your own style onto it and keeping it modern for modern diners?
00:38:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think so, yeah. um Yeah, I think el duo El Duca was kind of a to a lesser degree in in that um there was only latterly that I started kind of putting dishes on the menu. um But I think, yeah, with Salt Yard, yeah, I think that was a really interesting um menu process because, yeah, I would, you know, I had my classic techniques.
00:38:52
Speaker
I think it actually worked in my favour because, um you know, you can put Mediterranean food on the plate and, ah yeah, and and it can be, it can be so it can be sloppy, right? Do you know what I mean? And it can be it can be over, you know, some places, I think i think actually, you I get crucified saying this, but sometimes when you go to Italy or Spain or whatever, and you go to, you know, i mean, this is from a chess perspective, but it can be overly simple.
00:39:21
Speaker
do Do you know what I mean? It's like, but I think with a technique and a bit of, you know this is how you make this in the seasoning and and you know kind of certain techniques, and then you apply that to Mediterranean food with still with simplicity of just a few ingredients, um it's much more than sum of its parts. And I think, yeah, so, um yeah, I think i i i it worked in my favour, I think, at Salt Yard. you know We took got all these small plates that could have been really simple like chorizo in a bowl but you know adding certain kind of a bit of a french technique to it or a sauce or whatever um still look very simple but it would elevate it so
00:40:01
Speaker
Must have been a really fun process as well to be able to kind of put your spin onto it and use the the sort of fine dining techniques that you'd accumulated over the years. Yeah. Yeah. very no Very much so. It was, it yeah, absolutely. very It was, it actually, that time was really inspiring. And, and you know, I think it was, cause it was so new, small plates. So, yeah,
00:40:24
Speaker
I think, yeah, I'd never, you know, ah small plates was was a new thing. I mean, they were just essentially a mix of really simple snacky things and then small, very small but complete dishes.
00:40:39
Speaker
but But yeah, I think adding, you know, having, being able to use like, you know, kind of maybe a French sauce or... You know, just even the way kind of like meat was fish was cooked and elevated, you know, the meats kind of used caramelized properly in butter and rested and but you're still just doing it with some artichokes or something like that. And then it's yeah.
00:40:59
Speaker
Yeah, it was a really really amazing, really amazing time, actually. like And then you talked about um sort of your first experience ah seeing people cook on on a wood grill and stuff like that. what What do you think it is that cooking on an open flame really brings to a dish? I know it sounds like a simple question, but everybody has this sort of really love and passion about cooking over fire.
00:41:22
Speaker
Yeah. So I think i think there's there's a couple of things. I mean, I think... um done properly, it does add a flavour. It adds a flavour, a smoking, a sweet, you know, depending on what you're cooking over. I mean, I think sometimes it's perhaps not done properly, but it does enhance the flavour of what you're cooking.
00:41:42
Speaker
But I think moreover, it's the perception of it. And, you know, if you go to a restaurant and you see that, or you kind of know that's going on, then I think it just taps into something, you know, ah whether it's something kind of primal or I don't know. i mean, I, yeah, I think, um, and um also what it allows you to do is, um, it's, ah it's, it's kind of a, an unseen ingredient on, on a, on a dish or on a menu. So you can be really, you can be really simple with what you're doing. You know, you can like nowadays, you know, with,
00:42:20
Speaker
how our menus run now, you know, we've kind of gone even more simple. So I'll have dishes on the menu, which are, it's just a piece of meat and perhaps a small garnish or a sauce and that's it.
00:42:32
Speaker
And then people can order sides and things to go with it. That's kind of how the menu goes now. It's all about the protein, but it's perhaps been cooked over wood or, you know, particular charcoal or whatever. And yeah, that enhances the flavor, but it also, you it gives you a, it's kind of a, um it's a reason to to just do something simple is because it's been cooked in such a way.
00:42:55
Speaker
But I think, yeah, I think people, yes, it taps into something um that people people like. And I think people in this country, forget about the barbecuing, yeah having something cooked over wood, it seems almost, kind of it's quite exotic still, you know and is it some it's a it's a Mediterranean a thing, you know um it's quite transportive, I think.
00:43:18
Speaker
ah you Are you teaching your chefs now then how to cook over the wood fire? Well, we do a bit, some of the so some of the pubs do, and, um you know, at the Orange is one of our pubs, we have ah a wood oven where we do pizzas, but we also cook things in a wood oven, so that's another element, but...
00:43:35
Speaker
some of our pubs and go for, ah you know, there's another pub that we're looking at, unfortunately won't have that because of, um they have to be electric. So what I'm doing now is teaching, but that's just because of the regulations and things like that with these old grade two listed, you know, that you can't have like wood embers flying around, which is a shame.
00:43:55
Speaker
but um But where where we can, yeah, i do i I do that. And we do lots of events where we have, um we have outdoor grills and things like that. We've got quite a few coming up actually next month.
00:44:08
Speaker
And so we do, we cook, we cook over wood on these events. So we've got a, like a, you know, the acid or style grills with the kind of the wheels on things like that. And we take those, build them, you know, cook meat and fish and vegetables on there and have them all kind of built up.
00:44:23
Speaker
um So, yeah, so, we so we do that. Yeah. Sounds really exciting. um You were a massive part of leading the Salt Yard group to amazing success and um you know all the menus, they looked sensational.
00:44:38
Speaker
What was the biggest sort of challenge stepping out of that? And did you feel like you needed to build something different after stepping away from Salt Yard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. I mean, I think...
00:44:50
Speaker
i think and Yeah, it was an interesting one, actually. I guess I got this opportunity and um was still a bit, you know, I'd kind of got everything lined up after Salt. yeah got the The reputation was there and I was i was kind of ready to everything was lined up, if you like, to do something. Yeah.
00:45:13
Speaker
But what happened was um I kind of got started into kind of writing and things like that. And ah so, yeah, so what I wanted to do was open.
00:45:24
Speaker
ah got interested in Moorish style, the the Moorish slant on Spain and Italy, if you like. And so that's where Norma came from. um But it was inspired by um ah book called that i'd written called Moorish, um which was kind of my second book, I think, and And so I'd written the book just as I was leaving Salt Yard and it was published just as was leaving Salt and just after that. And I thought, well, it would be a great opportunity to open a restaurant, kind of hinge to the book. It was very current and topical and the book was quite popular. So um I was like, well, I could do...
00:46:01
Speaker
Spanish, I could go down the Spanish route of that, or I could actually go something a bit more unexplored, which is Sicilian, because at the time there wasn't really much in the way of Sicilian, particularly focusing on the Moorish element of Sicily. So i thought for it to be yeah wholly authentic, um that's what the that's what the restaurant should be. So it was it was an i suppose it was an extension of salt yard It was still kind of still what I was known for, but with a new slant on it, basically, is what I think I'm trying to say.
00:46:33
Speaker
um Yeah, so I wanted to still be known for that food, but but adding a new a new element to it. If you had to describe Moorish and Sicilian cuisine to me, what what are the flavours of that? if i didn't yeah so moreice so so um So I guess there's lots of flavours and style. There's lots of wood grilling and grilling. so lots of the elements have that smokiness weaved through it.
00:47:01
Speaker
um very kind of herb, yeah, i suppose herbs, um lots of fresh herbs, ah dried fruits, spices such as saffron and cumin, chili,
00:47:16
Speaker
Um, and, uh, a, a, a big focus on vegetables, um, raw, uh, or raw fish and crudo. So kind of like the ocean raw, yeah, raw, raw seafood.
00:47:33
Speaker
Um, and then. Yeah, I think ah nuts and ground nuts and things like that. So I guess it's more akin to, kind of you know, if you look at kind of North Africa, I suppose, um their style, but with the produce that you would find. So it's kind of a meld of, yeah, a meld of North Africa, really, and um the produce that you would find and in Andalusia or wherever you go in Spain or or um Sicily.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yeah. And then you've you've touched briefly on your books, but I've always sort of thought about from obviously like from a chef's perspective, of how do you have to alter
Cookbooks for Home Cooks: Adapting Recipes
00:48:16
Speaker
sort of your recipes and your ideas from what you would do in a restaurant um to then put it in a book? Because are your books sort of aimed at everyone? Are they aimed at more people cooking at home?
00:48:29
Speaker
yeah um Yeah, good question. Yeah, they're aimed at home cooks. And I think ah the reason for that being is they sell more. you know So I think you know pure restaurant cookbooks are...
00:48:43
Speaker
quite niche, unless you're a Gordon Ramsay or something you know like that. I think, yeah, all so my my recipes are always ah diluted version of what some of the recipes i would you would never get in the restaurants or some that you would, but they're, this is you can do at home, it offers alternatives. It takes out a couple of the steps that are just not feasible to do.
00:49:07
Speaker
Nobody wants has time or wants to do at home. Don't have a package yet or a thermo. well well Well, exactly. Exactly. That kind of thing. So, so yeah. And then I do, when I do my cookbook testing, um I always do it at home. So I never, you know, I will, ah you know, I actually got this from, so when I, when, when we did our very first, very first cookbook, which was salt, yeah we did a salt yard cookbook.
00:49:33
Speaker
Saltyard Food and Wine from Spain and Italy. um And I um went to see Yotam Otelenghi, who's actually pal, he's really helped me with books over the years.
00:49:47
Speaker
Talked to him about it, and he said, he gave me some tips on cookbook writing. he said, you know, hes and he'd written three, you know, written plenty but by that. So, you it was really, you know, he was really getting going.
00:49:59
Speaker
He said, you know, I do all my recipe testing at home. And I go to the shop, so I don't get my food, my my stuff from the restaurants and take it overseas. And I'll go to Waitrose, I'll go to Asda, buy the stuff for the the recipe.
00:50:14
Speaker
um And if they haven't got what I need, then I'll get an alternative, come back and cook it i'm in my kitchen. And don't know if he still does that, but um probably not. But yeah.
00:50:27
Speaker
But i think that's a really good tip. And that's what I do now. I do all my recipe writing at home and I'll go to you know wherever it is, Waitrose or Lidl or whatever and buy it and offer for alternatives. And, you know, just because it's more authentic.
00:50:39
Speaker
um And, you know, that's I think that's what people, you know, will but kind of buy into. Yeah. must be an amazing couple of months when you're writing your cookbook for eating at home and you get to eat all your recipes.
00:50:52
Speaker
Yeah, no, I do. I love it. I really i i really do enjoy it. um I think, yeah, so it's ah it's a it's a really nice it's a really nice period of time. I actually quite enjoy it. i find it, I think some people,
00:51:03
Speaker
Some chefs find it quite stressful. um I think i I actually find it quite therapeutic. I i suppose I've got gotten a bit of a routine of when I do it where I need to take a bit of time out from work to to do it.
00:51:16
Speaker
But more often than not, I'll get up. um when um'm what How I do it, I i kind of... I decide what recipes I want to do, like as in write write them down. So it's going to be these hundred recipes. So I'll write the titles of the recipes and I'll have that in my head, kind of roughly what I think that dish will look like. Obviously no measurements or anything like that.
00:51:41
Speaker
um And then I'll read through those and then i will then write the ingredients down for that dish. and perhaps the method, but still no grams or liters or anything like that. So I'll know what things need to be in the dish. I'll know how to make the dish, but i won't know the quantities.
00:52:02
Speaker
So I kind of do that first and then And I can do that like an hour at work, perhaps, or I might get up at half five in the morning and do a couple of hours doing that. And that and and those bits I can do kind of like quite on the hoof and like they don't need to be that structured.
00:52:19
Speaker
But then when I get to the next bit, which is filling in the gaps of the grams and that's when I need to do the testing. So and then that's when I'll have like, you know, a few weeks at home doing that. Are there, I mean, I imagine there are, do you start off with like, say there's 50 recipes going into your recipe book, you start off with a hundred, try them and then pick the ones that you think have worked the best or?
00:52:41
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. I mean, I think I, what tends happen. So when you're pitching to your publisher um or your your agent to pitch the publisher whatever, they will, you have to be, you actually have to give quite a bit of away to begin with. So, you know, they'll say, well,
00:52:58
Speaker
So what is the book? um And then so you write, you have to write the intro or a synopsis. Then say it's usually 110, 120 recipes.
00:53:10
Speaker
So you have to write 120 recipe titles within chapters. And then you have to provide them with maybe 10 of those recipes completed.
00:53:23
Speaker
And you send that to the publisher and they say, yeah, we like that. And they will check a couple of the, you know, they're quite thorough and they will check a couple of recipes and they'll say, right, work on that proviso. And then what will happen is I will then start the whole process that we talked about.
00:53:37
Speaker
And probably 10 of those recipes will not be any good or 15. And then I'll swap them out and and put new ones in that I'm happy with. Publishers are okay. they're They're okay with that as long as the the main body doesn't change.
00:53:52
Speaker
um But yeah, usually there's a bit of swap out of stuff that doesn't work. Yeah, it's something I guess I'd never really thought about it, but you do really have to make sure that they work because a it's your name on there and B, there's nothing more frustrating than when you read a recipe and you try it and it just doesn't work and you know you've followed the recipe and you're like, what is going on?
00:54:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. No, it's, it's, it it's it really is. And, yeah you know, I think publishers are much more thorough now. I mean, you know, the people writing it should be, should be thorough, but publishers are thorough about recipe checking and, you know, they have, um, when you put your, like my last book, Mediterra, it seemed to be a whole new level of checking. And, um, so,
00:54:38
Speaker
they do a whole wave of ah that, you know, they'll, once the recipes are edited, which is kind of quite a long thing in itself. um So then they'll, the recipes will get sent out to, but they have a team of people that check recipes.
00:54:54
Speaker
um I think some are, they're not like official. I think there's maybe one official and then some are just like, well, will you buy the expensive ingredients just check this recipe and they'll just send it out and then you get all this feedback and then um but yeah but i do that myself i think you know when i write but now i'll i'll send a few recipes out to people and say just check that see what you think how easy it is because also as well obviously i've got a bit of ah ah quite a good grasp of the food and the technique so i can you know, it's good to get somebody with lesser grasp of it to just see how, you know, can
00:55:34
Speaker
you know i can i can think, well, actually, yeah, I just do that. And, you know, you don't even think about it when you're doing the recipe, but somebody with lesser knowledge might not be able to that. So, yeah, it's it's um it's quite a process. And I think publishers may have been burnt over the past, you know, with people complaining like half these recipes don't work or, you know, and once it's out there, it's out there, the book, you know, it's,
00:55:55
Speaker
not like a... There's no recall. There's no recall. You know, it's not like a restaurant where you can change it next day or, you know, it's done. It's out there. You know, 10,000 copies printed or whatever. So, you know. Better hope it's right.
00:56:07
Speaker
Better hope it's right. Yeah. Yeah. This one's a little bit of a deep question, um but I really wanted to ask it. I feel like every chef's got one where they have a professional, oh shit moment, whether that be from like opening a restaurant or something like that.
00:56:27
Speaker
Is there any moment where something sort of bad happened, but looking back on it in reflection, it really taught you something? um
00:56:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I suppose... um
00:56:48
Speaker
Well, I suppose there's couple a couple of moments over my career where... It's not really kind of open restaurants, but, you know, having seen worked in environments that are perhaps... um not not great, you know, culturally and, you know, whether it's been, you know, bit bullying or, you know, and just, you know, it's well documented what kitchens used to be like. And I think, um I suppose, it's just often how it was. And I think, you know, having gone through that, there was times where I thought, well, I actually just don't one don't want to do this.
00:57:21
Speaker
You know, it's just it's just a horrible environment. Why would I want to be in any of this environment? um And, you know, where I could just... do something a lot nicer, but having stuck with it and learned from it in that, that is definitely not the way I want to do things or how things should be.
00:57:38
Speaker
um You know, at the end of the day, it's just a job, you know, that kind of thing. you know, why should it be any different from any other, you know, you know, career or industry? And so i think, um yeah, learning, learning how to, to run kitchens in the best possible way and wanting you know my chefs and the front of house and everybody to come to work excited mainly every day um you know and enthusiastic and all that you know and and um you know see them see themselves as a a really important part of the business and to grow with us and all you know i want you know i wanted that and not for anybody to feel intimidated or
00:58:20
Speaker
um as you know i had done as lots lots of people have done in the past. i mean it's Like I say, it's very well documented. Don't need to go into detail about it. But you know yeah having seen that and come out of it with a fresh perspective on how a a hospitality business should be run.
00:58:39
Speaker
And, you know, lets lest we not forget, you know, hospitality industry is, I think it's like the third biggest industry in the UK. um It's, you know, it's huge and it's going through the mill at the minute. It's been going through the mill for for a while, um but it will come out, you know, it it will it will come out the other end. And I think, you know, what's important is that we,
00:59:00
Speaker
You know, we're just kind of, you know, it's trying trying to make the industry as best it best it can be and um attracting, know, keeping exciting and attractive for for the future generation.
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah. So to answer your question, yeah, I think, you know, having had yeah ah probably not a great experience in various parts of my career, um you learn in in a positive way from that.
00:59:25
Speaker
Do you think that when you had your first head chef role, that you how would your chefs have described you then? Yeah, suppose, yeah i suppose um
00:59:38
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose I probably took a bit... ah that so so My first head chef role, I suppose, really was at El Duca when... Just towards the end. um And I was very young.
00:59:50
Speaker
And so I was probably quite hot. hot I mean, i was never I was never vindictive. I can hands up say that, or nasty. But I was quite hot-headed. um And it was because I thought that's how you had to be, you know, having seen it. and um But then...
01:00:07
Speaker
I think I quickly learned from that that's not productive. um And, you know, ultimately, just people didn't want to be around you when you were like that, especially um I think I, and then when I went to Scotland, actually, um ah was working with a very different um sort of team.
01:00:28
Speaker
You know, they were kind of, you know, i I was, you know, working with a seasonal team who were not necessarily in it for the love of food. You know, it was a job. They were working in the summer in the West Highlands. So, you know, their priority was going to the pub after work or going on, you know, boating or whatever it was.
01:00:49
Speaker
So, you know, taking that out of the, you know, so they weren't as passionate about about it as me. And that's fine because, you know, that's not always going to be the case. And so you had to treat that team with with a very different approach, you know, that ultimately, you know, just get the best of them while they're there, but they've got other things to do. And so that was a huge learning curve, I think, actually spending time out of London. because London can be a bit of a bubble.
01:01:14
Speaker
um And I think that's quite important actually for anybody is too to go and see a you know go and see a different kind of way of you know you know how how that kind of works. um But yeah, I think I've always been, yeah but I have always been team focused. And then I think you my when it really properly started for me was at Saltyard, I suppose.
01:01:35
Speaker
um And yeah, by that time, I suppose I had quite a bit of experience and i was all about you know, building a team, you know, because we we expanded quite quickly there.
01:01:47
Speaker
um So whilst I was, you know, i was head chef for a couple of years, but then, you know, before you I was overseeing two and then through three places. And then that's when you really have to ah people focus.
01:02:00
Speaker
ah You know, my job my job now, right, we have 400 staff. um So I guess what, 120, 130 those are chefs across the group. um we have an And we have ah ah h child department um an HR department and I have a small team myself.
01:02:17
Speaker
90% of my time is is is dealing with people, um you know, on different levels and things like that. And it's just, you know, it's so important to to get that that bit right. So um so I've slightly got gone off on the question. But yeah, my first HR, I think people would would would say I was probably a bit hotheaded if things weren't going right. But um but I was caring.
01:02:38
Speaker
Yeah. It's kind of the nature of it as well, I think, when you're young. and Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, first head chef for old, busy restaurant. And, you know, it's like probably underqualified, really, to be, you know, this is this is the other thing i'm I'm really careful of is over promoting people. Because I've kind of seen that so much. is That's where a lot of it, ah a lot of the problems are. You you have these chefs or front the house even, that ah get put into a ah managerial position. Forget about putting nice food out on the plate.
01:03:10
Speaker
Okay, that's really important. That's a small slice of being a head chef or a sous chef. You've got chef welfare, you've got welfare yeah chef welfare all these elements that you've got to um make sure are correct and look after. It's quite a lot. You know, it's a managerial and all of a sudden the chef, you know, even if they're moved from like a chef to party, senior chef to party to a junior sous chef, you know, you're cooking on the line one day and the next day you're,
01:03:40
Speaker
looking after a quiet service, but you're still in charge of eight or 10 chefs, you know, and their welfare, whilst looking, making sure the food's great. It's a lot of pressure. And I think that's when things can go wrong quite quickly. I think there's much more investment in that um build up into a managerial position, particularly in the kitchen, i think is really important.
01:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it takes a lot of sort of insight from your superiors as well. Like I definitely took on ah head chef role that was too big for me. And yeah I was hotheaded and I wasn't very nice to be around. And it really took a little bit of ah step back and a look inside myself and being like, yeah the team is going to do so much more for you.
01:04:20
Speaker
Yeah. Everyone's happy. course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. and that Absolutely. 100%. think, you know, but it it does, you need to hear that. or You need to kind of take a step back.
01:04:31
Speaker
um And, you know, we now invest in, and we've got quite as quite a good senior team now, Touchwood, and who kind of look at all that. But we we invest quite a lot in kind of training in terms of, we have this thing called hop training.
01:04:46
Speaker
which um we invest in for our chefs, front of house as well, but different things. And, you know, they they get to have one-on-ones with this hot trainings tutor, whoever it is, um where they can um talk about scenarios that,
01:05:04
Speaker
haven't worked well and um you know these are kind of we talk about ex-chefs that have have experience in the industry and they're good because you know whilst myself and my team can help and advise and support which we do often it's something that other chefs don't want to communicate to us about so having a third party is really useful and I think that's been one that's been a bit of a game changer for us actually um feeling that you know they're not alone and you know it's it's perfectly fine to make mistakes. and peing know It's always gonna happen. All right, we've done the battle scars.
01:05:38
Speaker
um What about a big win that you've had in your career? Like a moment where you've just thought to yourself, this is why i do what I do. Yeah, um okay.
01:05:50
Speaker
ah I suppose ah opening of Norma, I would say. um i think only because it was purely my, i suppose it was my but i suppose it was my dream, really.
01:06:09
Speaker
You know, it was a it was very personal project, um and kind of tied in with the book. I think it was, ah you know, it had all the challenges of an opening, but it was really well received, um quite, you know,
01:06:25
Speaker
largely by by most of the you know most of the journalists i've know i got i got some really good reviews that's it's not the be all and end all but it really helps i think everybody kind of got it and um Yeah, it was just it was just a kind of, um like, yeah, I think it was my but it was my most personal project today. I think everything else I've done, has been I've been a partner in, or ah you know and so it's been ah ah ah a vision of a few people that we've kind of all plugged our bits into, which is fantastic as well. But just having something that is purely, right, you know, you pluck something out of your head, this is this is what I want to do, being able to put it into a restaurant,
01:07:04
Speaker
it with a book and yeah and and and and it working ah it didn't work it'd be a different story but yeah and it worked and um yeah i just think that that for me is the that was the was the the moment Was it hard? You said you're not part of Norma anymore. Was it hard to walk away No, so... Yeah, so, no. So, I... um So, I did... No, I'm not part of it anymore. Or or the Stafford. So, no, we we just parted ways. I mean, it was after four years. so I think what happened was... um So I joined, so I was a a partner with the Stafford Collection. that So the idea was that I'd oversee the hotels, F&B, with a chef there, and then open a restaurant with them, and then do other bits with them. So um my my role was culinary director of of the Stafford Collection.
01:07:55
Speaker
um And I think what, so what happened was Open Normal, it obviously a big success, um and we had, We were going to do, we we talked about doing other normas and ah then another project came along that I had to get involved with um as kind of part of my, slightly sold my soul to the devil in that i I had to be involved with other projects. And so there was another project that came along that I kind of had to put my name to and get involved with, which was this pizza concept.
01:08:29
Speaker
um not gonna go down any names of it, but anyway, I i didn't wanna do it. And so my had to weigh up my pros and cons really on on it.
01:08:42
Speaker
um There was some financial stuff that was going on as well with with with that as well. And I was like, well this is this is just not gonna work. I've got Norma out of my system. um It's a shame, you know because I did, I said to you, I absolutely loved that place, but um I think for my own sanity,
01:08:59
Speaker
um I had to get out of that. and glad I'm glad I did. Sometimes it's just not worth making the deal. Yeah, it's not worth it. No, no, absolutely. I mean, I was, you know, think also, you know, to be fair, I think the whole COVID, you know, it was the whole, it was at the right beginning of the whole, you know, lockdown COVID thing. So that didn't help matters as well. Everybody was kind of like stressed out and on tenterhooks. And so that was another part of it.
01:09:26
Speaker
Yeah. How do you think the London food scene has evolved from when you first started? what are the sort of trends that you see upcoming now in the food scene?
01:09:39
Speaker
Yeah, I was chatting somebody about this the other day, actually. I mean, I do think it's actually coming a bit full circle um because, you know, when I was, I kind of feel that um when I say fine dining, um so obviously fine dining really dropped off the radar for a while. It was all kind of very, you know, kind of stripped back and, you know, the opening of restaurants that are,
01:10:04
Speaker
you know, lower price point, more casual, but still delicious food. you know, I think that's still all around, but things like table service and a slightly more formal um environment where you feel a bit more special, and a bit more kind of I think that's kind of coming back. And I think, um you know, if you look at places such as Alphys, which we've just opened, but places like One Club Row. i don't know if you've been there where, you know, you still got like, OK, they're in pubs, but the restaurants where you go and you've got a tablecloth, you've got lovely service, maybe a bit of table side theatre and ah menu that's perhaps not so... um
01:10:46
Speaker
challenging or innovative but everything you want to eat kind of quite classic that that's something that was perhaps you know 20 years ago and i and i kind of feel that's come back but at the same time you know if you you i think cuisines specific cuisines and regions that's really kind of exploded i suppose so um you know you can get you know, yeah all manner of diversifications of African food do you know what I mean? It's like, I the i suppose some of it's come full circle, but then other bits have kind of exploded off in other tangents. I mean, we're in a really strong place in London for, um in the UK, I would say, you know, mean, Manchester is definitely having a moment, but, you know, we're very, you know,
01:11:39
Speaker
where where I think we're cuisine wise, we're in a very, very strong place because we have um the classic restaurants, but then all the still like the kind of the niche um lower price point, but fast more fast kind of casual restaurants. um so part of it's comfortable circle, part of it's diversified.
01:12:00
Speaker
don't know, that's what it's... No, I'm definitely seeing that in, um I mean, places like Australia and France, some of the sort of coolest new restaurants that are opening, they are complete classic cuisine, like going right back to real classic.
01:12:18
Speaker
So I think it's exciting because I think it's something that we haven't seen for a little while, but they're doing it slightly differently. yeah but yeah, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. Yeah, no, definitely. ah think people want to feel, i think people, i think I think my point is that You know, there's always going to be a market for um now. I think it's established these kind of smaller, more fast, you know, more casual restaurants. But I think people now want to go out and and again, feel like they're having a really special time.
01:12:49
Speaker
you know what I mean? Like once upon time, be like, oh, we can go out twice a week and you go there and you get a glass of wine. and But you know, you go to places where it's like, you're actually having a ah ah lovely experience, occasion of going out again.
01:13:01
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily need to be, fine dining like cook you know core or somewhere like that it can be ah simple roast chicken but it's served on a silver platter and it's got a tape you know and you get a martini service at the table and I think that's where it's kind of at at the minute yeah what kind of What kind of restaurants and food do you like to eat when you go out?
01:13:25
Speaker
um Do you go fine dining or do you go more relaxed? I suppose less less fine dining. I mean, i have restaurants a small handful of restaurants that i go to regularly and then I do go out and eat quite a bit just because that's that's the nature of the job.
01:13:41
Speaker
um But like I like Cafe Cecilia. um That's one of my favorite restaurants. it just I just think whatever they're doing there, they've got it absolutely nailed.
01:13:53
Speaker
um I think that's really good. I like Bistra Tech. And I think um that's kind of been the same for like 25 years. It's been 20, 25 years.
01:14:06
Speaker
And it's like, it is that, um you know, they have tablecloths and things like that. When you go up there, although it's like in this kind of East London warehouse type vibe, it's in the middle of nowhere.
01:14:18
Speaker
But you go up there and you feel like you're in a proper restaurant. Do you know what I mean? It's like the service is amazing. I keep going on about the tablecloths, but just everything's nice. You know, the glasses are lovely. They're not cheap glasses. You know, it's like, oh, I feel really good.
01:14:34
Speaker
Yet the food's really simple. You know, it could be steak and chips or, you know, that kind of thing. And they they've they they haven't moved from that. And I think that's why they're still, but you know, they're packed. um But yeah, I do like to kind of check out new places that that um you know there are opening.
01:14:51
Speaker
um ah probably try and go somewhere, i don't know, once a week. And then I always, I'm quite big on taking my my chefs out. So we do... ah we do a quarterly ah head chef and senior chef lunch. So I'll pick a place and we'll get, there's usually 14 of us. um So that's the that's the the head chefs and senior chefs. And we'll go to wherever and we'll have a ah meeting beforehand, like a half an hour meeting beforehand and then um and then go to a relevant place. The last place we went to, we went to Rochelle Canteen.
01:15:24
Speaker
Yeah. last time and then next so that was the first quarter and then next month is it next month or June we've got our next one going to the quality chop house um which is really good so yeah kind of like places like that um I always want there to be a kind of something that that chefs can kind of learn from or it's relevant to what we're doing um I like Japanese food and I like Indian food my wife's half Indian so um
01:15:56
Speaker
So yeah, there's that kind of thing there, but cook cook a lot of Indian food at home, but i like to ah like i like Indian food a lot. Very nice. All I've got some quick fire questions for you.
01:16:08
Speaker
What's one ingredient you absolutely love, but most diners overlook? um
01:16:20
Speaker
Lemons.
01:16:22
Speaker
i mean I mean, I don't know if it, I mean, I i put lemon lemon juice on everything and in everything. I'm kind of like, as as I would salt. So, don't know if Diana's overlooked that.
01:16:34
Speaker
They might not know it's in it. feel like, yeah, that's a very chefy thing to do, but maybe not so much for everybody else. Yeah. What would your last meal on earth be? Um...
Culinary Preferences and Influences
01:16:47
Speaker
Pasta with like a really good ragu and pecorino. I'm feeling it. Meat ragu, yeah. no um What's the worst dish you've ever eaten? um I'm not a huge fan of chidnas.
01:17:04
Speaker
Fair call. No, um that yeah, no matter how they're done, i've had um i it's one thing I'm not, yeah, can do without. What's your most memorable mouthful?
01:17:16
Speaker
Um, mine would be me so memorable. That's, that's the key word is having Sicilian proper Sicilian red porn, red prawn crudo for the first time, not knowing that you could actually eat raw prawn. So this was quite a few years ago, but the proper Sicilian deep water red prawns are absolutely incredibly sweet and you just have them, well, have them raw with little bit of sea salt and lemon juice on them.
01:17:45
Speaker
And yeah, it's quite popular ah around that red, you know, red corn crudo. But the first time i had that in Sicily was mind blind. What's your favorite cookbook other than your own? ah Favorite cookbook of own.
01:17:58
Speaker
I'm going to say currently it's Cafe Cecilia cookbook. Cool. I'll have to check it out. Yeah, it's really good. And then who has been the most influential chef to you?
01:18:10
Speaker
um
01:18:13
Speaker
I would say, can I have two? Yes. Okay. So Stephen Terry, who I've worked with for a few years and still in touch with most definitely um just through his food knowledge and his you know his food vision, but also as a mate and a mentor.
01:18:34
Speaker
um And then I would also say Yotam Otolenghi just through... I think, you know, massive admiration for him in terms of like, you know, he's running his restaurants, but also his book writing. And he's been a bit of a mentor to me. And um I mean, you know, he's changed the way we eat in the UK.
01:18:54
Speaker
So. I think he was before, like, so I got into the industry a little bit later, I started ah my apprenticeship at 21. And I think just as I was starting, his was probably the first cookbook that I ever bought.
01:19:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Massively influential. Oh yeah, I'm saying it was it plenty. Was it was that? Yeah. It was plenty or no pee. I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah. One of the two. Yeah. No pee is a good one as well. Actually. It was a really good restaurant. No pee. haven't been for you for years, but I used to go quite a lot. um Yeah. I mean, yeah.
01:19:22
Speaker
Massive influential. One last question from me is, um what would you tell the younger version of
Reflections on Culinary Career and Travel
01:19:31
Speaker
yourself? Like with all the experience that you have now in the industry, let's say 25 year old Ben, you get to talk to him.
01:19:37
Speaker
What would be the piece of advice that you would give to him for the industry? um Yeah, so and well, I think I would have, i wish I'd traveled.
01:19:51
Speaker
um with my with my uh career so I think you know I'd like to have gone to Italy or um yeah Italy I think and kind of cooked ah because I could have done you know i just for whatever reason I didn't I stayed in London and went to Scotland for a bit but stayed in London and did that and that's all fine but I think um I wish I'd done two or three years out cooking around Italy and, um, maybe Southern Italy and just kind of got that experience, particularly maybe after Old Duca.
01:20:26
Speaker
I wish I'd done that. I think it could have really, um, added ah another kind of element to my career and so on. And, and, and you can do that, you know, you're a chef, you, you, it's so easy to to be able to do that. You know, you can travel and, and do all these things, but, um,
01:20:44
Speaker
I don't know why. Yeah, i did I did think about it. But anyway, that's that's what I'd say. I wish i I should have done that and used my skills, you know, to do that. Do you find yourself making up for that now? Do you go and travelling quite a lot? Yeah, yeah going absolutely. ah No, absolutely. I think, um yeah, any opportunity really, you know, to go and explore a new place or go back to Pace. I've been going to Sicily this this weekend, actually.
01:21:09
Speaker
um Yeah, so I do that. But often when I'm there, i unless I'm staying in a villa where you can go and buy ingredient to cook, I'm always, you know, love food markets and things like that. And, you know, and often you're staying in a hotel. And so it's like, you know, you can look, but that's it at the end of the day.
01:21:28
Speaker
And I really wish that I'd kind of had that period of time where, you know, you are getting that amazing produce and taking it back to the kitchen and and preparing dishes with it rather than just looking at it.
01:21:40
Speaker
And so that's kind of missed that bit. It definitely would be my holiday hack to tell chefs is when you go on a holiday to a different country, book somewhere that has a kitchen so you can go to the food market. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and No, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we do.
01:21:54
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I mean, don't always do that. i mean, when we go Sicily this weekend, we're staying in a hotel. So that's not going to happen. But... um Yeah, I think my wife prefers a hotel.
01:22:07
Speaker
but yeah she yeah She knows what will happen. you know if if If there's a kitchen, then it changes the whole holiday because like I'm down you know this you know cooking that, and then it's like, you know she's like, you know you're not on holiday. The day's gone.
01:22:21
Speaker
Yeah, the day's gone, exactly. But yeah, I kind of wish I got it out my system. Do you have any more books coming up?
New Book Proposal and Farewell
01:22:28
Speaker
um Well, so Mediterra came out just under a year ago and Yeah, I mean, I'm working on, well, I've worked on a proposal ah for a new book, which is a bit more honed down to Southern Italy.
01:22:44
Speaker
um And so that's with the publishers. um um So let's see. i mean, it'll be, a you know, these things take a bit of time. And, you know, I think we need see a full year's sales. You have to sell, you know, you basically, it's so it's very commercial now nowadays. So you have to pay back your advance and then you get and and then hopefully you get a new deal. so But yeah, is that there will be another book.
01:23:08
Speaker
I'll keep an eye out for that one. Ben, thank you so much. This has been really, really lovely. um I'll let you get on with your day. I know you're a very busy man, but thank you for taking the time. Thank you very much. Thanks having me on. It's been thoroughly enjoyable.
01:23:20
Speaker
right Thank you. by Bye. Bye.