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James Cochran - Legal battles, comebacks, and kitchen grit
9 Plays1 hour ago
On today's episode, James dives into the brutal truths of the industry, and how he thinks it is changing for the better.
James has a unique and bold style of cooking, which is unapologetic and packed with flavour. We talk about what influenced his cooking style, and what direction he plans to take next. James talks about his time on Great British Menu, and what his sucess on the competition did for the opening of his restaurant 12:51.
We also chat a little bit about bullying culture, and what his early experiences were like in commercial kitchens, and how that shaped him into the chef he is today.
Please enjoy, James Cochran.
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Transcript
Introduction: Kasey Fraser welcomes James Cochran
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Check On podcast. I'm Kasey Fraser, your host for the evening. And if this is your first time listening, then welcome. If you're a day one listener, then welcome back.
00:00:12
Speaker
We have a treat for you today. We have James Cochran, the chef who took great British menu by storm with his bold flavors. We'll also talk about his illegal battle to literally keep his own name, showing his stuff outside the kitchen as he is in it.
00:00:30
Speaker
Please enjoy James Cochrane. How you doing, you alright?
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'm alright, I've got a little bit of a croaky voice but um hopefully that doesn't affect the recording at all. How are you? Yeah, good. Really, really, really busy. um As you probably know, chefs always take on too much work.
00:00:57
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, it's it's all good. It's just there's not enough hours in the day, lot of brand work coming up. I've got doing some consultancy at the moment, got round-the-clock brand, potentially open restaurant. So yeah, busy.
00:01:13
Speaker
Everything's happening then. Yes, all at once, for some silly reason. I said to myself, work smarter, not harder. And somehow said, you're working harder, not smarter. How do we always do that though? Vincent and I say that to ourselves all the time. We're like, there must be ah more efficient way to do this. We just don't know it.
00:01:31
Speaker
And we just have not figured it out yet. We just end up keeping on working harder. Yes. i i think because I have ADHD and I have this thing where I seem to leave everything to last minute and then i put myself under a lot of pressure and stress.
00:01:48
Speaker
But guess because I've done that for so long, it seems to be normality for me. So, yeah. Yeah. It'd be weird if everything was lined up too well. It'd be weird if everything was normal. Normal's boring, isn't it? So I might as well just add a little bit of spice to the mix.
00:02:03
Speaker
That sounds exciting, though, opening up something
James Cochran's Heritage and Early Culinary Passion
00:02:05
Speaker
new. what do you Can you tell me anything about it or not yet? Yeah, I can. So it's been... ah projects for about four years or so.
00:02:15
Speaker
um ah lived in South East London for the last 20 years and that was a place that was really close to my heart. um and love like the culture, the diversity and and couldn't move any further away. I moved to Tottenham. So i'm a Tottenham supporter, I'm Tottenham by heart.
00:02:35
Speaker
And this woman got in touch with me on Instagram about this, um like, disused 18th century grade two listed building that was, like, connected to a church in Tottenham.
00:02:54
Speaker
And... a And the project's been really slow because the council are like dinosaurs. So it takes anything to get done.
00:03:05
Speaker
But it's a pretty cool project. I mean, it's, I want to put like a floristry and a pottery class in there. um It's going to be a restaurant. It's going to be a wine shop. It's going to have around the clock connected to it as well.
00:03:20
Speaker
don't want to say too much. But yeah, I should be hopefully opening that up by the end of this year. Even though the economy is on its fucking ass, I said I want to open myself a restaurant and now I'm doing it. So, yeah.
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah. Sometimes you just got to do it though. Like even whenever I'm saying it's not a good time, it's not a good time. Like if the building is there and it's perfect, then what are you supposed to do? Just leave it? Yeah, exactly. I feel ah feel like Walthamstown's been done, Hackney's been done and like Tottenham's like this little pocket in the middle where gentrification is a gift and a curse, it's coming.
00:04:00
Speaker
And um you're seeing a lot of change around there. So I think it's at the right time, but I think it needs it as well. And it'd be quite nice to have someone quite close to home. And it's make it kind of bit of a community feel.
00:04:15
Speaker
That all sounds very exciting. I'd kind of like to go back to
Early Career: Wheeler's Oyster Bar Experience
00:04:20
Speaker
the start really, sort of where you grew up, um what that was like. Yeah, of course.
00:04:27
Speaker
i so I'm half Scottish, half West Indian. ah My Scottish roots, they come from Troon. Now it's lie, they come from Glasgow, but now live in Troon. And my mum is from island called St Vincent.
00:04:40
Speaker
um And I was born in Margate um and raised in Whitstable. And let's say Whitstable was not a very multicultural, diverse area.
00:04:51
Speaker
So my mum really found it integral for me to... understand my West Indian culture. So I used to go to Brixton, like back, like in the nineties. And my my mom used to really kind of introduce me to my West end Indian culture, but my upbringing, i mean, was, was pretty, was pretty good. I guess I was a little bubble in some kind of ways. and My parents kind of pushed me hard on education.
00:05:21
Speaker
But as a kid, and I wasn't really too interested in that. I knew from another age of eight years old, I wanted to be a chef because like we didn't have a lot of money and there's some holidays. So we used still a lot of bacon and um my dad was kind of,
00:05:37
Speaker
quite pushy on me at a young age, kind of trying to figure out like where my direction, where I wanted to go in my career. My mum was just like, just tell to fuck off. um And basically, just like give her rest mate, have a day off, do you know I mean Have a day off.
00:05:52
Speaker
um And i just knew I just knew that I loved cooking. um And I remember up one of my first like memories was making like banana bread or making cupcakes or like Jamaican ginger cake or there's a West Indian cake called black cake where it's just got loads of booze in it. But I wasn't allowed to have that, obviously, because would have been pretty hammered from the age of eight years old.
00:06:16
Speaker
So, am yeah, i knew. You were proud anyway. Yeah, of course did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I slept really well. Yeah. Yeah, don't really remember much of my childhood, to be honest with you, mate. I was eating this cake at Howard every day.
00:06:28
Speaker
No, it was not really. ah Parental guidance. If you listen to this, kids, I won't give you the recipe. and And, yeah, I just knew from the age of, like, 8 years old, 10 years old, that wanted to be a chef.
00:06:44
Speaker
And um that was kind of ignited me. a little flame inside of me and I kind of worked at a restaurant called Wheeler's Oyster Bar.
00:06:56
Speaker
It's a bit of an institution now. It's been there since 1856. So what's that, like 100? Yeah. yeah it's been there for a long time and my parents knew that owner really, really well.
00:07:08
Speaker
uh because remember i used to go there as a kid and you have like crab sticks cockles and and crab and smoked salmon and stuff so i was kind of introduced to food at a very young age but i got a job there at like 13 uh for like two pound an hour so i was doing like 12 hour days of making 24 quid ah of the best days of my life that was, mate. Probably making more money back then i was now.
00:07:36
Speaker
No, I'm joking. And
Bold Move to London and Early Challenges
00:07:40
Speaker
I learned how to cook fish. I learned how to respect fish. we were People were bringing fish up from off the beach that we were buying. i remember like I was skinning like ray wings and the nerves were still flapping because they were so fresh.
00:07:55
Speaker
and And I had a really, really great time there. like I loved it. Some of the people are still working there than when I was working there. And that was what? no No. 25 years ago?
00:08:09
Speaker
Mad. Just shows you how much of that town is ah very small and people just are scared to leave it. But... um My mum just knew that like... It's kind of like Coastal, California.
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah. My mum knew that she wanted to get me out the house pretty ASAP. So as soon as I was 21, she was like, fuck off, get out the house.
00:08:35
Speaker
She was just like, there's nothing here for you anymore. She like, you want to further your career, either go to New York, that was like pretty scared of to be honest with you. Or go to London.
00:08:51
Speaker
And at the time I only had one friend in London, who's my best mate. And I remember, mate, this is mad. So I remember I picked up the Good Food Guide, I think it must have been 2000 and...
00:09:07
Speaker
three And I was just looking through the book and I saw the square and I saw the Leadbury and I saw Jason Atherton when he was at the maze. So I went for but for all three trials and ended up going to the Leadbury.
00:09:25
Speaker
um And I remember I went there on a Friday I was like, you've got the job, can you start on Monday? didn't have a flat,
00:09:36
Speaker
or anything, and I said yes to it, and I managed to find a flat on Saturday, went back home, packed my stuff, and started a Monday, and the rest is history, basically.
Progression at the Ledbury: Overcoming Challenges
00:09:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I just had no clue of London. It's a tight turnaround.
00:09:49
Speaker
I mean, there was like no things like apps. There was just like, I didn't know what Oyster card was. Yeah, it was daunting, but hey, my mum told me to piss off out the house and crack on myself, so what am I going to do, really?
00:10:03
Speaker
Yeah. i Probably didn't expect it to be kind of that quick though, right? No, it was an emotional, it was emotional day when I left. ah But she was like, my work is done. Now I can just enjoy myself.
00:10:15
Speaker
So they had plans, they planned, like, my brother-parents passed away, but they planned to live six months of the Caribbean, live six months in the yeah UK. So that's summertime here, summertime in the Caribbean and have sunshine all year round, but unfortunately it didn't happen, but yeah.
00:10:29
Speaker
So um they were happy to get of the house for sure because I was a mommy's boy anyway. So, yeah.
00:10:38
Speaker
What was that like? I mean, moving to London and like back then we didn't have Google Maps or anything like that. ah What was that like? and And walking into your first kitchen, did they have all of their styles at that point? Was it still as sort of big as it is now?
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:58
Speaker
I mean, coming to London, i've been to London a fair few times as, as like, a kid, but that was as a tourist. So i guess it was the first time living on my own. and I mean, yeah, I was a scruffy boy, I can tell you.
00:11:13
Speaker
I wasn't prepared so many ways because I guess had everything handed to me on a plane. had everything handed to me on a plane for my parents. So I had to, like, basically grow up pretty quickly. But i guess...
00:11:27
Speaker
It was just the volume of how big it is. And just navigating my way around transport around London. and lived in the worst place ever with Notting Hill. I lived like southeast. So it was a long trek and getting a bus home at night it was like an hour and a half.
00:11:44
Speaker
So I would finish at like two o'clock in the morning, get home at half three, back up at six o'clock, backed in for seven. And then sometimes like,
00:11:54
Speaker
When I was like, cause was there for five years, when I was in there, I was sometimes doing like 22 day straights, like no days off. So yeah, man, it was, it was hardcore, but I didn't know, like, it was interesting because when I went there, everyone was super, super friendly.
00:12:18
Speaker
But i just didn't know how hard that kitchen was going to be. And it was fucking hard. Like... I bet. Like, brutal.
00:12:31
Speaker
Like, I won't go to the gym, but it was fucking, like, prison. It was fucking ah mental. Like... I mean, i was i was crying...
00:12:44
Speaker
going home crying mate like couldn't do it and my mum was just like rise above this get your head down and just fucking get on with it James just on with it like you know you can do this but it was just a mental block in my mind because you're just getting verbally abused
00:13:01
Speaker
I won't go too much into it but yeah it was pretty full of and then something clicked Brett was like a so fucking shit if you don't like basically turn this around, you can leave tomorrow. And something clicked in my head.
00:13:18
Speaker
Came the next day and then I just, and then I literally was just starting to perform. I think like when i was 22, 23, I was like running the pass at one star with Brent. So yeah I quickly turned around and I quickly rose up the ladder pretty quickly and became like an integral part of that. i think I was there for five years.
00:13:40
Speaker
So do you know what mean? I was there from the one star to rising two to two star. Because back then you used to have like rising one to rising two star. And I felt at the time when we were there, that we were invincible.
00:13:53
Speaker
Like we were the hottest restaurant in London.
00:13:57
Speaker
And the whole team was just in synergy. It was just like, honestly, the best years of my life. I mean, even though... you were working from like seven, eight o'clock in the morning.
00:14:10
Speaker
Because I was on fish section, my fish would get delivered, then have to stay behind and do all the fish breath, then come home with my hands, thinking of mackerel, my ex-girlfriend was just like, this is right. It was not a nice wake-up call for her. It was really not, trust me. um but yeah, it it was good. it was it was I learned so much. that All my foundations of my cooking now come from the Leadbury.
00:14:36
Speaker
like cooking meat, resting meat, for example, resting meat in its own fat and own juices and and fish cookery and okay and just most of my stuff come from there. um So I thank the L'Ebrey for those core foundations.
00:14:55
Speaker
But after five years, I didn't really know myself anymore because I was just literally running ah nothing. I mean, I remember like getting on the bus from Notting Hill and waking up in Shepherd's Bush Depot.
00:15:13
Speaker
So I've gone all the way to where I was in South East. Where I've fallen asleep, I've gone back to the bus depot and then just woken up and gone to work. Yeah, man. I mean, you cannot do that these days, obviously.
00:15:25
Speaker
It was hardcore. But... but And then I felt, and like I said, I felt I didn't do it myself. So then I decided to go into like semi-retirement.
00:15:36
Speaker
I went and worked at his one-star pub, the only Michelin-star pub in London called the Harwood Arms.
00:15:43
Speaker
And I was there for like four and a half years. Went up to that sous chef position, didn't want a head chef role. And then that's where I kind of navigated my next directions to where I got to now.
00:15:57
Speaker
Do you think when you were at the Ledbury and you had your chef say to you, if you don't get your act together, just like don't come back tomorrow, do you think that kind of like sparked a bit of fuck you mentality? You were like, I'm going to prove you wrong?
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah. was it just sort of the kick up the arse you needed? Massively fuck you mentality. was like, for all you cunts, sorry, can't say that. Apologies. Okay. Sorry. I was like, for all the people that not race yeah yeah it was like all the people that racially abused me through my time there, i' not I'm like, just coming for you. yeah But it's me coming for you where I'm going to be like, I'm going to rise above you and I'm just
Opening 1251 and Thriving During COVID-19
00:16:35
Speaker
going to basically make you look really shit.
00:16:37
Speaker
and And that's what I did, basically. And then I got that respect from them. And I rose past mostly all of them ah in a really short space of time. And I got that respect And I challenged them on their actions, basically.
00:16:54
Speaker
And that I thought was inappropriate. don't think it's acceptable in any kitchen. And, um yeah, that was it, basically. well. it work when challenged them? Yeah, of course.
00:17:07
Speaker
I think i think
00:17:11
Speaker
ah think if you're going, like I said, like if you're going to racially abuse me, you know i mean? like
00:17:21
Speaker
Back then, i guess it wasn't spoken about too much.
00:17:29
Speaker
I guess ah knew ah knew where I was from, but I didn't know a lot of history behind racism, slavery, et cetera.
00:17:44
Speaker
So ah found I educated myself a bit more and I didn't have a go at these people. i just educated them a bit more and just said like, I actually get on with you, but you have to understand like the actions that you say oh unacceptable.
00:18:05
Speaker
And we just had a conversation and just spoke about it. and they respected me from that, and moved on and became friends. I think it's just like this day and age is all about educating people, isn't it in some kind ways?
00:18:19
Speaker
But I guess if people can see a weakness with me, ah just turn that weakness into strength and then just, yeah, and then I become strong as a person, know I mean?
00:18:35
Speaker
Talk to me about like, so pre pre that moment where you decided that you were just going blast through and overtake everyone. Yeah. what was What was the service kind of like?
00:18:46
Speaker
Because like i I obviously came into the kitchens quite a bit later and I came into Australian kitchens. yeah Yeah, okay. So it's really fascinating to me sort of what those really big long days are like and those really intense hectic services.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, okay. So kind of give me like a plan of like the day of it would go. um Yeah, kind of. If you're starting from like eight o'clock in the morning. and Yeah, okay. Starting eight o'clock in the morning. um Well, this is mad because when it was like three times a week, would well, this is when Brett used to go to the market to get veg.
00:19:21
Speaker
I'm not sure why he did that because it's just mental. I mean, he's a
00:19:26
Speaker
But we would arrive at like seven o'clock in the morning and go to the basement kitchen. So some days would just never see daylight. So then... um Again, go in. Mise en place would already have been... Your mise en place list would done for the night before.
00:19:41
Speaker
Everything would be put away. And then it's every man for himself, mate, because the mise en place was just so labour-intensive.
00:19:54
Speaker
And the great thing with Brett would be that, like, if you got set by, like, quarter to 12...
00:20:03
Speaker
So we'd be running around in the morning doing all meets on class. um And imagine, so we'd say you would open at midday, but if you were set by like 20 to 12, Brett would see that he'd be like, how much more can I push you?
00:20:20
Speaker
So for example, would go into the fridge and be like, oh, we're gonna put special on now. I'd like, 20 to full service.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yep. Let's Let's do
00:20:46
Speaker
they'll be pasta... Oh, sorry, be pasta in the fridge. Okay, so let's make let's make like a um milk-fed lamb ravioli with like a truffle fine.
00:20:58
Speaker
Something like, for fuck's sake. Okay, I'm right. but he But basically he wants to get the best of you. He wants to see how far he can push you. That's what he's doing with everyone. And if you can do then he's like, okay, how much more can you do?
00:21:12
Speaker
Can I give you now, can I give you a responsibility to look after the invoices? Now you take care doing all orders. So it's kind of like he's seen every chef, what capabilities can you do?
00:21:23
Speaker
So then lunch service would be just absolutely manic because then some people would not be set for service. So then I'll be running around trying to help everyone out. Lunches, mean, when it was in its peak, it was busy, like busy, busy.
00:21:38
Speaker
Like it was not organized for Two Mission-style restaurant. It was not organized for Two Mission-style restaurant. Like the the amount of covers of bookings coming in in certain timings.
00:21:50
Speaker
the menu, the mise en place, just the course of it, it was just like, because I love the buzz, like you probably do in the kitchen. When everyone's in synergy, it's the best buzz and best feeling ever.
00:22:01
Speaker
um And we'll go through service, and by the time we finish, it's just probably enough time just to literally just have a bit of food. I doubt that very much. We'll just literally smash like two, three coffees.
00:22:14
Speaker
And then we'll go straight into dinner service, and... Yeah, man, it it was it was great, great fun. And um when you're on the pass, I would like, because I learned pastry as well, I'll be jumping onto every section, helping everyone out, cook a bit of fish, cook bit of meat, plating up, doing snacks. and So it was great because you were able to learn every section there.
00:22:38
Speaker
It did take a bit of time. But um yeah, man, like, even though it had its, like, moments... I did like, I love, I like, I don't think, I've i've never ever, apart from having my own restaurant, don't have a service like that, where it's like, everyone is just on absolute fire.
00:23:05
Speaker
It's a great feeling to have. And everyone's just working well together, but everyone everyone's backing everyone up. And yeah, it was good fun. And then at the end of service, it would finish.
00:23:16
Speaker
Then the fish would arrive and we'd have like 50 mackerel, four turbot, crabs. And then would stay back and help do the fish prep if was on that section. Because if I was on the pass for like a week, because say someone's away or the head chef's off or the sous chef's off or junior sous chef's off, then I'd help do fish prep.
00:23:39
Speaker
And then get home like half two, three in the morning, have like three hours sleep. And then literally just like cold shower, bang, alert myself.
00:23:52
Speaker
And then I'll just sleep all the way to work, basically. i remember numerous times I would be at Queensway and then it's like Nong Hill and Holland Park. And I would like Queensway and then I'd wake up at Holland Park.
00:24:04
Speaker
And then I'll get back up and wake up. And if you're 20 minutes late to work, you have to buy Otter Langis for everyone. So go in there, you spend like 40 quid already. It's like, Jesus Christ, it's probably worth earning a day, mate. Yeah.
00:24:15
Speaker
Because back then, I think I was on like 24 and a half, I was on 24 and a half grand.
00:24:22
Speaker
Probably doing 90 hours a week. So you know what mean? Like, but that was, that but that was, but that's how it was. you would like your your your contract would be four and a half days a week.
00:24:38
Speaker
So that would be probably $90 a week. And your salary would probably run for CDP 24 to 26 and a half. okay But then I wasn't spending any money. So every day, all my days, I would sleep off to like five o'clock in the afternoon.
00:24:52
Speaker
So, I mean, it was it was a normal. But looking back at you now, I mean, you know you can't pay that. You can't even live on that.
00:25:01
Speaker
No, absolutely not. and you probably can't get your chefs to do that nowadays either.
00:25:09
Speaker
Sorry. right No, no way. um And that's why the economy is all pretty fucked because of just, it's hard for, I mean, we probably go into conversation later on. So don't know you want to lead the way of the
The Impact of COVID-19 and Seeking New Challenges
00:25:25
Speaker
conversation and I'll come back to you, but I can kind of.
00:25:28
Speaker
No, that's okay. No, no. Yeah. Okay. Sweet. I mean, Yeah, it's just, I mean, i have a restaurant for eight years. They were some amazing years.
00:25:44
Speaker
It was, a i mean, i could go into this one and then so then I, know how to leave this. um I know how to lead this. So yeah, I'm a wrestler for eight years. and And it was just, it was a so great eight years there.
00:26:01
Speaker
The first few years were really tough. It was like mad, mad busy, but just like overheads were so high. So it was hard to make a buck. Then COVID saved us. ah Kobe was the best years of a life. We just made just absolutely from ridiculous amounts of money. We were we were like months ahead of anybody else in London. Like anybody else. Like by miles.
00:26:24
Speaker
We didn't even close. We just stayed open. When it was told by the government to close, had this idea called Around the Clock. We had um delivery platforms, Uber Eats and Deliveroo.
00:26:41
Speaker
And on the first Friday, we went down like a sack of fucking shit. Like, we went down so hard, I can't express to you. Basically, it had, like, these two little, like, buffalo fryers, like, five-litre fryers.
00:26:54
Speaker
Cookin' chicken, get five pieces probably in each. The machine was just non-stop. Because back then, delivery was quite new. Well, it was about, but...
00:27:07
Speaker
Restaurants went on it. was mainly takeaways. It was quite small.
00:27:14
Speaker
And the rate we got was fucking phenomenal, because now it's extortionate. And know remember the first Friday went down so hard. And like 10 litre fryers, we made about three grand.
00:27:27
Speaker
I was like, okay, we've got something here. So we closed that weekend. I got a big, massive industrial fryer. And I had this brand called Around the Clock. So we just did like a choice of like... It was just a great way for me just to learn my craft because I've come from a Michelin-style background and I do fried chicken.
00:27:47
Speaker
And it gave me a few weeks to kind of understand where I wanted to go direction-wise my fried chicken, really hung it on the menu. And then... i was... And then when people started to do it, then I thought, okay, how can I step ahead? So...
00:28:03
Speaker
I started to do collaborations with chefs. Then like the whole Black Lives Movement thing was happening. Then my PR company as well, everyone else had closed apart from me, they needed work.
00:28:16
Speaker
So I was getting like 50 publications a month for me. It was mad. I was everywhere. was everywhere. Then Black Lives Movement happened, that pushed my profile up. And I sat there at the restaurant and I was just like, and my accountant, our accountant told us to close the restaurant, close the restaurant, close the restaurant just before COVID.
00:28:36
Speaker
So we'd done all this around the clock, had like serious money in the bank.
00:28:44
Speaker
Everyone was getting furloughed, just me my business partner at the time doing it. And I kind of sat there and I had a menu of like five course tasting, no, five course tasting menu, eight course tasting menu, small plates,
00:28:55
Speaker
menu du jour, and I it was just like, sat there and I was like, I'm not very happy doing this, and it's not cost effective. yeah What should I do?
00:29:06
Speaker
And I was like, should I do a five course tasting menu for 35 quid a head? It means that four chefs now look after, let's say I've got two snacks on, basically one chef looks after two dishes each if you got like ah snack on there and a cheese course.
00:29:22
Speaker
No food wastage. We know exactly what we're doing for the next month because change the menu every month. This is going to be an absolute dream. Opened the restaurant and we were fully booked every day.
00:29:40
Speaker
Probably for about three, four years. like constantly busy, even in summertime for roasts. We did like 100, 120. We're busy every day.
00:29:52
Speaker
course, inflation went up a bit, so we changed the prices inevancy and went up. But um the reason why closed the restaurant was that I just got really bored of it.
00:30:04
Speaker
I just didn't love anymore. I'd been there for eight years and I was just regurgitating the same thing every year because of my price points.
00:30:16
Speaker
ah I had to stay to certain like, of certain ingredients that I could use. And arate it has the most Upper Street has the most restaurants
00:30:35
Speaker
in the whole of Europe. So along that stretch, yeah, has the most restaurants in the whole Europe. I never knew that until actually I closed. So it was a very competitive market. So being in that area, ah did very well. We had a lot of support for locals.
00:30:51
Speaker
But thought it was time for me to move on. I think when you fall out love something, or you don't care about it too much anymore, it good time to move on. And I think it was the best time to close. Yeah.
00:31:03
Speaker
sold the place um and
00:31:09
Speaker
I knew like everything around the economy was rising I think been every ingredient's been rising gas electricity and everything's just becoming more and more harder to make a profit I think this day and age now you have to streamline like the amount of staff you have on the days the amount hours they're doing so they're restricted.
00:31:35
Speaker
You're going to be so efficient about your food, what you can do with your wastage.
00:31:44
Speaker
I think this day and age, if you're busy every day, ah doubt you're making a mad amount of profit. And there could be a few places that are doing it, but there's a very small amount.
00:31:59
Speaker
And...
00:32:03
Speaker
It sounds really funny because I'm opening a place up um But yeah, I've kind of contradicted myself a bit. ah my I might not open it now. I'm kidding. and It's just took
Fried Chicken Brand and Upcoming Projects
00:32:15
Speaker
super, super tough. so I've had time to kind of reflect on this all.
00:32:20
Speaker
And I've been in the game now for like 25 years. So i think I know. if I did it right, have I have no plan. my like my My plan now is that when I had 1251, I wanted to open like three, four, five of them, like in and around like kind of the UK.
00:32:42
Speaker
Now I just want the one restaurant and it to be profitable and for like all of my team there to be able to grow in it and to be integral and feel part of it.
00:32:55
Speaker
And that's all I want really. I've got no ego, I've got no, I don't want to achieve any kind of goals or anything, i just want it to be a community of space, where people come in and my ethos has always been for anyone and everyone, so make it affordable, accessible for everybody.
00:33:16
Speaker
ah and my whole and my goal for me, like, I think for me as a chef, like, even though love cooking, Sometimes I don't think like that's where my expertise lies.
00:33:28
Speaker
I think in marketing it and bringing people in and doing events there and just nurturing the team, I think is like where my work is served best.
00:33:40
Speaker
and And I think that's with a lot chefs as well. I think if you if you want to grow or you want to build a team I think, and then also, I'm a little bit older now.
00:33:53
Speaker
I think, like, it's hard for chefs to say when they run a restaurant to be in the kitchen because you've got similar things to do. But I feel like as long as I've got a good team around me that I can look after them, make sure they're paid well, then that's what really care about, really.
00:34:11
Speaker
Do you find that did around the clock, so in, in COVID times, when you opened that, was that sort of the first shift towards doing sort of high end comfort food, I guess? you could Yeah. I call like fried chicken. You move sort of away from the real, the real fine dining to something a little bit more stripped back and generous.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah. I think I call it like fried chicken and acid. Um, Yeah, i mean i I mean, I loved it because fried chicken sounds have been close to my heart. Like, my mum sent me to Brixton as a kid, and I remember she was getting hair done, and she got me some fried chicken, and I can remember it being, like, the best fried chicken ever had, and it was place called Morley's in Brixton.
00:35:00
Speaker
and m And then when I had 12.51, twelve fifty one um Jay Rayner, Faye Mashler gave me mad reviews of my fried chicken.
00:35:11
Speaker
So, when I was going for like doing the kind of high-end food, moving to fried chicken, I loved it because it was like, I can home in with all the kind of my Michelin star backgrounds and really kind of perfect this fried chicken. So there was like, from getting the chicken, there was like five processes,
00:35:38
Speaker
to when it's finished. So from tenderizing and scoring the chicken, to brining the chicken, to to dredging it, to flouring it, to deep frying it at same temperature, draining it and frying at high temperature.
00:35:54
Speaker
so yeah, i i I love it. And ah on my menu, my favorite dish is my fried chicken, even though it's noisy because comfort food.
00:36:05
Speaker
People love comfort food, don't they? um And that's a brand that I'm going to be growing for sure. So I've got a spot in Shoreditch that I'm hopefully launching next month, around the clock.
00:36:22
Speaker
That I'm excited about, really, really excited. ah I've kind of been working on it for the last kind of six months, just on like perfecting the craft, making sure labor cost is low.
00:36:37
Speaker
making sure that um the marketing's done right. I've got really solid team around me. That's really exciting. I'm really excited about it. like I'm probably more excited about my fried chicken than I am about restaurant.
00:36:53
Speaker
Because i believe that's... Do you think that's because it's comforting or because it kind of gives you... i guess it gave you a little bit of a break from the... Yeah. The tasting menu side of it. It's kind of fun to just go back and be like doing something simple but doing it really, really well.
00:37:07
Speaker
There's a bit of satisfaction in it. Yeah. I guess in some ways there's a few things like... That being my signature dish, my mum introduced me to fried chicken, ah around the clock basically saving my restaurant. and Also, a lot also a love fried chicken. um And it's a product it's a brand that I've always believed in.
00:37:32
Speaker
It's just, it's been on the back burner for quite a bit time. and We had a place in Islington, but it wasn't really kind of where i wanted to be, but my business partner kind of pushed me into it and...
00:37:44
Speaker
I don't think Isnton wants fried chicken. I think Isnton quite affluential area. I don't think they really want fried chicken. But I believe I've found the right home for it. but I've got the right team around me. after got yeah I've got everything ready to go for it, so I'm super, super excited.
00:38:02
Speaker
So watch this space, because I'm going
Legal Battle Over Name and Social Media Support
00:38:05
Speaker
to be giving you outrageous fried chicken. Yeah. I really want to try it. I'm to have to come to London and try it at some point. Nice.
00:38:13
Speaker
um What happened with, that when I was doing sort of a little bit of research on you, I noticed some articles saying that you, somebody had trademarked your name, so you couldn't use your own name for restaurants. And I just, can you talk about that? ah Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's mad. It's
00:38:36
Speaker
fucking mad. Okay, so, um, So this guy, this guy got in touch with me and he was like, do you want to open a restaurant? um
00:38:53
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, okay. He where about Soha? And was like, oh, fuck. Okay, fair enough. So opened this restaurant called Chef James Cochrane featuring BYOC.
00:39:05
Speaker
see um And we only had like a six month residency there. And it was just see if it could work and go well. And went really well there. um And we got a little bit of marketing done. So my name was getting a little bit about.
00:39:22
Speaker
couple of journos came in. a couple influencers came in and really enjoyed the food. So it's like, okay, let's go to a permanent place. So we went to a permanent place over in Bevis Marks, over in ah the city, called James Cochran EC3.
00:39:35
Speaker
and and we put some money behind the PR. and But i was just employee, so he put money behind the PR. And it went really, really well. We were busy, busy, busy.
00:39:47
Speaker
And then Fame Ashton came in and gave me like one of her top 10 favourite restaurants of 2016 or 17, maybe 17. and And then I got a phone call from Great British Menu asking if you want to go onto it.
00:40:06
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, okay, fair enough, let's do it. So done the show and then ah kind of spoke to the owner saying that, oh, I think I want to leave.
00:40:20
Speaker
So I think I want to do my own thing. and i think a right time for me. I think with Great British menu dropping, ah think to be really good. So
00:40:33
Speaker
I was like, but what I can do is I can kind of help you a bit with a transition, new head chef, but obviously we're going to have to change the name. Obviously, because I'm not there.
00:40:44
Speaker
So, he was like, um I've basically like trademarked your name and brand behind your back, but you can contest if you know about it, but i don't know anything about it.
00:41:00
Speaker
So...
00:41:02
Speaker
i'm in I'm in a bit of a mess right now because I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? And then I was doing pop-ups at the time. So I'd left there, but i was doing pop-ups. Imagine I'm doing a pop-up at your restaurant.
00:41:16
Speaker
He would ring him up and say, if you're going to be doing a pop-up with James Cochran and I own a name, I'm coming for you. going to take you down. So every angle that I was trying to do, he was trying to shut me down.
00:41:32
Speaker
Then hear this, this is the icing on the cake. So my ex, we were at home and my landlord came round and was telling the story and she was like, what the fuck?
00:41:45
Speaker
So I just typed in James Cochran and this whole website just came up, okay? This whole website came up and was like, if you're struggling, because Great Wish Menu was about to launch, if you're struggling restaurant,
00:42:02
Speaker
and you want to make some money, you can take you could buy six of James Cochran's dishes and you have to pay us 50 pound a week and we'll have a chef that'll come down and train you there.
00:42:15
Speaker
So they had that set up. Then they were doing SEO work. So because at this time i was about to open my a restaurant, were doing search engine optimisations and bidding on keywords. So if you type Chef James Cochran, that restaurant comes to the top.
00:42:29
Speaker
So so my So my missus was just like, this is, my ex-missus was like, this is fucked. So she was like,
00:42:40
Speaker
I'm going to put this on Twitter about what's happened. Then Jamie Oliver got it. And Jamie Oliver retweeted it.
00:42:54
Speaker
Then it went trending. Then it went trending. Then everyone decided to change their profile to say, not the real James Cochran. And then the rest, and then, and then, and then, it had, there was like, loads of my logo on my face saying, not the real James Cochran.
00:43:11
Speaker
um And, and a bit of a movement for like, I don't know, 24 hours or 48 hours, but ah basically, closed the restaurant down. And then that, and but then, but then the thing about it is, like, Great Rich Wendy dropped, and people were going there thinking it was me. And they Yeah, so they were just trying to capitalise on money.
00:43:36
Speaker
But eventually they closed down, like, I think probably maybe two weeks since they launched restaurant. And that was it, yeah. But it was mad because, like, I was doing... Do still have the rights to your name, though?
00:43:47
Speaker
i Yeah, I think for a couple of years, but, yeah, whatever. They haven't had it for ten years. But it was mad because I was doing, like, interviews with, like, BBC Radio 2.
00:43:59
Speaker
No, Radio 4, sorry. And they were like,
00:44:04
Speaker
So James, what are you gonna change your name to? Like, you don't own your name anymore, like, what are you gonna do? like And that was just a really weird thing to think of that like, your birth name given by your parents has now basically, someone's basically trademarked it.
00:44:26
Speaker
But like said, the power of social media is a gift of a curse. They could do nothing now. like no one could do that because you could just put a post on there and you could just basically tear
Great British Menu and Personal Inspirations
00:44:35
Speaker
people apart.
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah. That's still so crazy, though. Like, the idea of somebody owning your name and yeah you can't put your name on anything. And it was very strategically done time-wise, obviously. Yeah, of course.
00:44:51
Speaker
So strategic and sneaky. Yeah, they they did it they did it in, like, December when i was filming. knowing that um it was going launch in like early summer yeah it was all planned to talk to me about Great Bridge Menu actually now that we're sort of on that topic yeah of course was that experience for you I still have nightmares from it now um
00:45:22
Speaker
yeah I mean it was I mean it was such it was amazing ah just for my profile to rise, for people to recognise me, was great. The brief was absolutely phenomenal.
00:45:39
Speaker
It was... What was your brief? I think was like 50 or 60 years at NHS. So but whole menu was based around my late mum and the connections of the dishes.
00:45:54
Speaker
mean, I mean, yeah i mean and not been too prepared for it. So I kind of went in a little bit, let's say not very prepared.
00:46:05
Speaker
ah I not rehearsed a lot of my dishes. Apart from my first dish that was called, um exceptional. So it's based around my mum being an exceptional person and mushrooms.
00:46:19
Speaker
um And the connection to that is like when we were kids. We used to go out walking a lot. Not that used go foraged with mushrooms, but we used to go walking through the woods, and there were great times, and course, most mushrooms are foraged in the woods. So we mowed that dish together, um and the dish was pretty banging. It was SEP marmalade with like a Feudabrik cylinder, with like a SEP foam, SEP mushroom, truffle, wood sorrel,
00:46:48
Speaker
set brioche, shave set mushrooms. There was a lot of mushrooms going on. Yeah. yeah Yeah, a lot mushrooms going on. And I kind of got that first week and I got to, I was like so nervous every day. I couldn't sleep. It was just awful, awful.
00:47:07
Speaker
Really exhausting. Mine was going to overload. And then I got through to like the judges on Friday and I just went, I just became super relaxed. was like, I didn't think I was ever going to get a great fish menu my entire life.
00:47:22
Speaker
I've got here, let's see what happens, super relaxed, and I've got like really, really high scores, like really high scores, like really high scores. And then I got through to the final, off to the finals of like all of the regions, and went in there, and I didn't know many chefs at the time, I mean, I was still pretty like young in game, still finding my feet, finding my direction,
00:47:48
Speaker
um And then it was the first, obviously it was the starters because it used to be starters, fish, main dessert. It didn't have like the canapes and the pre-dessert back then.
00:48:00
Speaker
remember I did my starter and it was like, we all went to the judging chamber and it was like in eighth place, seventh, sixth, fourth, fifth.
00:48:11
Speaker
No, sorry, fifth, fourth, third. And it was just left me and a guy called Dan and I won I was like, wow. Wow. I never thought this. And it was ah such a proud moment because this this was a homage to my late mum.
00:48:24
Speaker
ah And it was a very emotional bit of filming after that. And I just... I don't know. I didn't really kind of sink in how much, how big it was and what I've achieved.
00:48:40
Speaker
And then, obviously... I got a dish to the banquet and it was the first year ever of like champions of champions. So one of the customers, one of the diners would vote here' the um who was the best dish and I won it. So I was just like an another little icing on the cake. ah And yeah, it was it was a great experience.
00:49:06
Speaker
Met some really lovely people, lovely chefs through it. ah and Yeah, and again, it was just another little accolade just to tick off the list. And it just grew my profile. And it was a great time for me launching 1251.
00:49:24
Speaker
And yeah,
Opening 1251 Post-Show and Personal Growth
00:49:25
Speaker
yeah. what was the What's the timings like for that? So from when you find out that you're going on, like how how long do you have to kind of prepare your menu before you you have to go go into the competition?
00:49:41
Speaker
You've got like a good couple of months. But I think if you know me already, I'll leave everything to the last minute. So, i But yeah, you have a good couple of months to kind of rehearse it all. Get your props.
00:49:53
Speaker
But you know what? i don't think I don't think I brought any props with me. i think I just used the crockery they had there. and But then I had like a lovely little just like picture of my mum. A little kind of message inside.
00:50:04
Speaker
ah kind of put there. Because some of the props now are just fucking outrageous. Um... But yeah like yeah, you have a good prefer you have good time to prepare, kind of work with the Home Ec, the Food Home Ec team and the producer.
00:50:22
Speaker
So you you feel pretty confident going into it. But then again, if you've never done TV work before, I just didn't know to take like for a half hour show it takes from like seven in the morning to bloody seven at night.
00:50:36
Speaker
So do you know what just i was just a mental mentally exhausting, massively just exhausting, just having to stop, start, start, stop. So it gave me a bit of insight into it.
00:50:49
Speaker
And you learn a few bits through it. and now just so And now I just feel I'm comfortable, confident behind a camera.
00:50:57
Speaker
Fully media trained now. I won't go that far away. I can still swear quite bit on it, as you know. Yeah. I found that probably one of the most bizarre things when I when i got onto MasterChef. I was just like, when they sent us the the daily brief and they're like, oh, so you get in at 7, you'll probably be finishing around but between 5 and 7 p.m. And I'm like, what?
00:51:22
Speaker
We've got like an hour to cook something. What do you mean? Yes, man. How's MasterChef? Did you enjoy it
00:51:30
Speaker
um A little bit like you. I still have nightmares about it. No, it was the exact same thing for me. It was incredible to, you know, have that experience to meet so many chefs because I only moved to England in um October 2020. So I didn't know anyone. So I'd be able to sort of meet some other chefs and um things like that. It was it was crazy. and And even for my profile, I mean, it meant that I could open up my own private dining and catering company with my partner. And I would...
00:52:00
Speaker
I would never have been able to do that before, not successfully, you know. Yeah, okay. It was um it was worth all of the sleepless nights and the stress. Yeah. Still have sleepless nights now?
00:52:13
Speaker
Sorry. so that Still have sleepless nights now or not so much? um Occasionally I'll have a nightmare about the final Kirk for sure. Yeah, okay. found that extremely stressful. Like it was so long as well. three-hour Kirk. Oh, wow. It was a big one.
00:52:28
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. Nice. Very stressful. Still nightmares about it, but yeah, so glad I did it. Yeah, of course.
00:52:40
Speaker
And then, so what sort of happened straight after Great British Menu? So had my restaurant, 1251, that opened. 1251 came from the Song Strokes.
00:52:51
Speaker
My business partner had a pub up the road and I'd done a pop-up there on New Year's Eve. And we were absolutely fucked. And um he was just like, should we, and 1251 Strikes came on at like midnight. like, let's call it 1251. was okay, wake up in the morning. He did we just call our restaurant 1251? He was like, yeah. I was like, let's just stick with it then.
00:53:11
Speaker
So then we opened. So basically, Great Wish Menu dropped on TV. I think opened up a week before it launched. So we were just fully booked all the way up.
00:53:24
Speaker
We were seven, eight operation open, lunch and dinner. I was mad. So I was just doing mad hours. Then Monday night, we would do the Great British menu menu, the Great British menu menu. Yeah, go with that.
00:53:36
Speaker
and So we had that on top of it. It was just, it was just mad. ah But I love 1251 so much. It was just rough around the edges. We had no money to open it, which maxed out a load of credit cards, took a risk, paid off massively.
00:53:51
Speaker
um And yeah, I mean, the the eight years there is just f flew by massively, massively. But I wouldn't change it for the world, but I'm i'm glad.
00:54:04
Speaker
it's moved on, I've like, I feel the happiest I've ever been, um, you know, like my cooking career, um, even though like, I'm busy, feel like I've got it, I feel like I'm on top of it,
00:54:20
Speaker
i And even though I'm working a lot at the moment, I'm just really enjoying it. I just feel like having the pressure, not having my place at this present moment is really nice to be in.
00:54:31
Speaker
So just doing loads of consultancy at the moment, and kind of working on my brand, doing quite lot of brand work as well, doing kind of private events. So yeah, it's it just it just feels really good.
00:54:45
Speaker
I'm looking after, I'm looking, yeah, I'm Sorry, go on. Yeah, I'm just looking after myself more. Never been to the entire life, going to the gym three times a week, eating healthier. You know what's been in the kitchen is eat absolute crap.
00:54:59
Speaker
So basically, I'm diabetic, so I'm not taking medication, but I'm just like, where I've not been in the kitchen for X amount of months, yeah, I've just felt the best of what I've felt.
00:55:14
Speaker
It must be nice to kind of be taking a step back and not have a premises necessarily that you're tied to and be able to do all these things kind of for yourself, I guess. yeah Yeah. i but Yeah.
00:55:28
Speaker
I'm really, really enjoying it. um And even though like the round the clock and the rest are quite daunting, I feel like I'm in a good headspace and I feel like I've got enough time just to build the team and everything around me.
00:55:43
Speaker
And I've been in the game now for a long time, so ah know what i need to do. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just like loving life.
Fostering Positive Kitchen Culture
00:55:50
Speaker
um My wife is enjoying me being at home a lot, cooking, just being about, being annoying.
00:55:59
Speaker
Yeah, she's loving it.
00:56:02
Speaker
Do you do most of the cooking at home?
00:56:06
Speaker
Yeah, she she she she does breakfast. She'll do like overnight oats. I have most days and do breakfast on the weekends. And she'll be in charge of the cocktails, but I do all the cooking.
00:56:21
Speaker
Yeah, I do all the cooking. we We know our roles. It's just so funny. Just like she knows our role and our role and we just go with it basically. Yeah.
00:56:32
Speaker
Because you've sort of when you started in the industry, um sort of moving to the library, you said you experienced some like really tough times and um racism and things like that.
00:56:46
Speaker
When you opened your restaurant, and I imagine you dealt with some really big personalities, let's say as as chefs, when you open your restaurant, what kind of kitchen ethos did you decide you wanted to go in with did you what kind of head chef and owner were you yeah what was that like yeah I think I think what was like really interesting over my years working at the Leadbury the Howard Arms being a quite tough kitchen
00:57:16
Speaker
ah just knew that and also by the way like I wasn't I was no angel I was quite tough when I worked the kitchen when I was in my younger days, had a bit of ego, a bit of arrogance around me. um And i was quite hard to work with.
00:57:32
Speaker
But what I'd realised is something that like, no chef is going to gain anything if you shout them. No chef's going to gain anything from it.
00:57:46
Speaker
And I thought like, as I got bit older, it's integral for me to educate the younger generation and to build just a nice environment in the kitchen. ah ah think like for me, when I worked in the kitchen, it was just like you lived to work as now,
00:58:10
Speaker
I think it's important that like see, see work in the kitchen as just a job. But when you come in there, make sure that ah basically everyone has three and a half days off a week, everyone works three and a half days a week.
00:58:24
Speaker
So it means you have enough time to be rested. But when you come to work, give you 100% and just be focused. And like, I've got nothing to prove anymore. for to me Because the kitchen is such a multicultural, diverse kitchen, you can learn from sell so many other chefs.
00:58:47
Speaker
So, for example, if we were creating something at the 1251, I would want to have input from all the other chefs because I found that, like, six heads are better than one.
00:59:02
Speaker
And if someone said, I went to this restaurant the other day or i tried this a couple of years ago I think would work well with this, well, you have you have a go at it, and you come back to me and let's have a taste on it.
00:59:15
Speaker
And then they feel integral, say, they're 21, 22 and they say, oh, by the way, um oh by the way, guys, I'll put this on the menu at 12.51, isn't that pretty cool?
00:59:27
Speaker
So I found like that we've got an independent restaurant and you can't pay the wages as the big boys can. You want to make sure that everyone feels like a family and everyone feels integral.
00:59:37
Speaker
So when it came to wine tasting, I would just say, okay, guys, make sure that the GP is around 75%. You go and pick wines, done. Cocktails, make sure it's around this you do what you want.
00:59:51
Speaker
So it means everything that in that restaurant, everyone felt an integral part and it was just like one big family. And that's why we had people stay there for four five years.
01:00:04
Speaker
i think it's um yeah I think it's a really important point to make is that when when the chefs and um anyone in the restaurant really, when they feel like they have a little bit of ownership and input into it, it makes them care about it so much. Like I'm sure that when you gave those chefs that little bit of free reign and said,
01:00:21
Speaker
go make it, we'll taste it and we'll see what it's like. I'm sure that they've put so much work into it to try and make sure it was perfect. And and if it did make it to the menu, imagine that they were absolutely so strict and showing people how to make it and stuff like that.
01:00:35
Speaker
yeah Yeah, yeah, of course. It's like, it's a nice feeling to feel that like, you're not just a number where you're just basically just doing what I'm told that. I care about your interests.
01:00:48
Speaker
And like so many chefs just say like,
01:00:52
Speaker
It's very rarely that I would ever really get worked up, ever. Like back in the day, I would like, one little thing would literally make me just like lose my head a bit. But like, you're human at the end of the you make mistakes.
01:01:07
Speaker
Like as long as you learn from your mistakes and you try not to do it again, then that's completely fine. um And I'm here for you to lean on. Like,
01:01:20
Speaker
I find that London is so saturated like I always say to like chefs like what's kind like your five year goal what's your kind of plan what do you achieve where you want to if I can give you like say James I want to wait for you for year this is what want achieve want go from this section to this section will nurture you will have your back I will train you say James I want to to next step want to go to mission style restaurant I want to go three rosette plays can you help me find that yeah I have I've got one chef who worked for me, went to Ledbury.
01:01:51
Speaker
Now she's at Koyi. don't think she's in this year. So, yeah. i am I put my arm around my round team. Like I said, I've got nothing to prove anymore. I've achieved most of the stuff I wanted to achieve, so happy days.
01:02:05
Speaker
I'm pretty just chilled, man. I'm pretty chilled.
01:02:09
Speaker
I think it's, um I think chefs kind of go sort of either way though. when you When you think about it chefs that grew up in that culture, um yeah like really strict, shouting, throwing things, abuse and stuff like that, they either tend to really hold that with them and think that that's the way you have to act Or they, and I think most of us go through that period where we're full of ego and full of everything. to Yeah. you know, we're all hot headed, I think as you grow up, you kind of, yeah, you either go one way or the other. And hopefully I think most of us have gone the other way.
01:02:42
Speaker
What do you think? Do you think the industry is changing? Yes.
Current Restaurant Industry Challenges
01:02:45
Speaker
One million percent. I think, uh,
01:02:50
Speaker
ah think social media, think like nothing can hide anymore. I think if chefs are abusing physically or verbally, I think they'll get called out. I think the industry has changed so much for the better.
01:03:09
Speaker
ah don't, ah just think, I just think it's really tough for the, I just think the industry it's really hard at the moment for everybody. But like, going back your question, ah sure there still has more pockets of chefs that like that, but I would like to think this day and age that
01:03:29
Speaker
people should respect one another, basically. That should basically sum it Respect one another. Treat the others how you want treated.
01:03:40
Speaker
Where do you think the industry still has to improve? i
01:03:49
Speaker
think...
01:03:55
Speaker
I mean, i would say
01:03:59
Speaker
That's a good question. There's quite a few.
01:04:04
Speaker
I mean, the government are not supporting small business enough. I think there is lot of amazing chefs out there who are not being heard about. think there are a lot of female chefs out there are not being heard about, but they're being heard about now. That's really, really good.
01:04:21
Speaker
I think it's a very male-dominant kitchen. ah i At one point, I had a kitchen at 12.51 where it was five of us and it was three women and me and a male chef and it was just a delight to work with.
01:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, it was just a real nice delight to work with. I just felt, like I said, like no ego. was just a nice environment, more caring.
01:04:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think... I just think something needs to change massively. i
01:05:03
Speaker
still, I mean, I won't go into that too much. I won't go into that at I just feel like the government need to look after small businesses.
01:05:16
Speaker
I just feel there's going to be a massive crash and a massive wave of restaurants closing down. um That's a shame. because national insurance is going up, as you probably know.
01:05:31
Speaker
Gas electricity is just high. It's just really, really tough out there. I find it mad because I've never been in London where it's the busiest of openings I've ever seen in my entire life.
01:05:42
Speaker
It's just relentless. I cannot keep up. I cannot keep up all. And and know ah I don't keep up. I kind of know where like to go.
01:05:55
Speaker
ah And it's just expensive to eat out now. It really is. Like, dining's changed.
01:06:03
Speaker
So for example, like, you're seeing places like fried chicken, burgers, pizza joints that are flourishing because they spend their heads like £25 a head.
01:06:16
Speaker
As like, I remember I used to eat out maybe like three times a week. Now would probably be like once a week. just because you're going to central London,
01:06:27
Speaker
going to Soho, you're probably going to spend like 125 per person, depending on where you're going. And that's just normal. And it might not even be amazing meal. It's mad. So, i yeah, it's just, it's just a tough time for restaurants out there. Like really, really tough.
01:06:44
Speaker
Um,
Future Food Concepts and Nostalgic Innovations
01:06:47
Speaker
And it's a shame because a lot of restaurants are going to close, like 1 million percent. It's just so diluted. are you seen yeah Yeah, it's just so diluted. It's just like, yeah, it's mad.
01:07:00
Speaker
I forget restaurants so much. I'm like, fuck, I forgot that open last week. Or like, you see it pop up too much later, like shit. That's why was on my list. Yeah.
01:07:11
Speaker
I think that you can sort of see the shift in the way people are eating as well. Like um I think they kind of need to trust the venue to be able to spend their money there, if that makes sense. Like before if people went out, like 10 years ago, if people went out, they had a bad meal, if they didn't enjoy it, they'd kind of not brush it off, but it wasn't so big. Whereas I feel like now if people go out and they don't enjoy their meal, it's quite a big deal to them.
01:07:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, one million percent. have And I guess it's it's the first impression, last impressions. So like imagine go into a restaurant and that first impression is like you want someone to be on you straight away, ti to the table, make sure have that warm kind of feeling and presence from your waiter. Yeah.
01:07:59
Speaker
um And again, it's because people don't have that amount of free income anymore. So you want it to be an amazing experience. And plus people don't drink anymore as well. Remember that?
01:08:10
Speaker
Like a lot of the younger generation, lot of like, think society have cut down massively the drinkingers. People go out and spend like, I mean, I do, but I mean, people now, what I've seen is like, they'll have like a glass of wine.
01:08:29
Speaker
or like one cocktail and a glass of wine as it would be like a cocktail, a couple bottle what bottles of wine, maybe like a cocktail at the end. You're not seeing it anymore. Like it all, so like the spread the head is dropping massively.
01:08:43
Speaker
Yeah. And then again, like the divide as well is just like, I think there's such a small percentage now who love Michelin-style restaurants compared to when I had, compared to when I was working back in like,
01:08:58
Speaker
15 years ago. I think it's such a small window now. So, yeah. yeah yeah i won't ah I won't say it again. It's tough.
01:09:08
Speaker
I won't say who said it, but at the at the final cook, um after we'd all finished on MasterChef, we sort of all, all the crew and everyone got around um and had some champagne or something like that.
01:09:20
Speaker
And I was talking to one of the judges and um they said to me that their one piece of advice to me, they said, if you're going to open a restaurant, don't do fine dining. Yeah.
01:09:31
Speaker
And it really stuck with me. I was just like, and this was, this is 2023. So we were outside of COVID. um But I just remember thinking like, and obviously they had fine dining restaurants and they just said, don't open fine dining, don't do it.
01:09:45
Speaker
And I kind of was like, I couldn't really understand why. And it wasn't until we opened up the the private dining and supper club company that we sort of really saw what people were going for.
01:10:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think i think like fine dining is slowly just fizzling out. I just don't think the younger kids or the young professionals, you just don't need that anymore. I mean, you can go to a food market and spend 20 quid and have really tasty food.
01:10:18
Speaker
You can go to nice restaurant, small plates. Yeah, I mean, some of the restaurants now are like... I went to Ledbury for birthday. There were two of my mates And it was like 1800 quid. I mean, we were having shots of tequila for every course. So yeah, they were like 25 quid a shot. Mate, yeah, we got pretty rowdy. I don't think we basically ruined everyone else's experience, but it's my birthday.
01:10:49
Speaker
My birthday is some crap I want to. I've heard some people say that the Ledbury is their like number one restaurant though. Yeah, it's like, it's like God.
01:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's like it's like the Mecca, basically. It's phenomenal. It was a great experience. a Great experience. A vague experience, but a great experience. From what you can remember.
01:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My God, I took pictures, yeah. yeah.
01:11:19
Speaker
So talk to me about um this new place opening. What's the menu concept? What sort of ideas do you have for the food? Because your food is quite bold and has a little bit of a mix of cuisines. Yeah. um um
01:11:43
Speaker
So ah kind of feel like small plates is dying out. And that, like, I think everything goes full circle. So I'm going be doing, like, an a la carte menu in the evening, going back to old school, but, like, informal a la carte.
01:12:02
Speaker
so um So doing, like, starters, main desserts. That I'm really looking forward so um In the lunchtime, I'm going to be doing, like, amazing, like, sandwiches.
01:12:17
Speaker
So people can come and get a quick bite. So like sandwiches are pretty hot at the moment. So going to doing that for like lunch trade. So I'm going to basically like employ like a really cool, like young chef who just kind of wants to come under my wing and just like learn some my mission style background and put it into sandwiches.
01:12:35
Speaker
And then we're going to have like a little like bottle shop in there. Then like on Friday, Saturday night, it's going to be like plain vinyl in there. So it's gonna be like an open kitchen, like a U-shaped kitchen.
01:12:47
Speaker
People kind of sit around, be all interactive. Then we've got like an outdoor area as well. Like 60 people that we're gonna have like growing nice vegetables out there. Gonna put a smoker out the back.
01:12:58
Speaker
So gonna do some collabs with like some pit masters over the next summer. and do some like really good hunks of meat. And then I've got Hatch as well. I'm going to do my fried chicken concept for match day for football, et cetera. there's going to be like three or four different like entities coming up under one umbrella.
01:13:17
Speaker
ah But my food is just going to be...
01:13:23
Speaker
mean, full-flavor behavior, that's my kind of thing. Everything kind of packs a punch. um Going to be homing in on my kind of Scottish roots and my roots from Kent, being the Garden of England, kind of homing on that and working seasonally and making sure that it's affordable and accessible and bringing back like some nostalgic things like Nickerbocker Glories, Ice Cream Sundaes.
01:13:52
Speaker
um What's a Nickerbocker Glory? Nickerbocker Glory is like it's...
01:14:00
Speaker
Basically, like a tall, tall glass and it's made of like ice cream, fruit, puree, like wafer biscuits and it's kind of all layered up.
01:14:10
Speaker
Have a look at it when you get off this. It's like a a fun thing and it's like for two people and long spoons basically going to do things like that. So, yeah. And just understand bringing back some like classics and putting my own kind of twist on it.
01:14:26
Speaker
Basically. I kind of feel like, I feel like, So if I imagine like a Jammy No, Jammy Dodger biscuit. Yep. So maybe they like an ice cream Jammy Dodger sandwich.
01:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, like a custard, like a custard parfait with like two shortbread biscuits coming from Scotland and then like a rich jam. It could be like a cherry jam or something that.
01:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think that's honestly the food that I'm loving so much at the moment is kind of like rediscovering some of the classics that haven't been done for a long time because everyone's been trying to be new and fine dining and really super refined.
01:15:08
Speaker
But some of the things that I'm loving the most is just rediscovering old classics and for me, new classics because I'm not from here. I'm kind of putting like a restaurant touch on them. I think it's really playful.
01:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. that That's like... that's like Yeah, that's my whole kind of, a little bit of my ethos is like bringing back some old school classics and putting my own twist on it.
01:15:32
Speaker
So people are like, oh my God, I remember having that dish when I was like 10 years old and that kind of kind of childhood food memory coming back and putting a smile on someone's face.
01:15:43
Speaker
I think it's like, it's priceless.
01:15:48
Speaker
I think touching into people's nostalgia at the moment is is really important, but also I think as chefs it's really fun. And I think that maybe the the way that the industry is going at the moment, it's almost given us permission to do it.
01:16:01
Speaker
Because I think before it might have been seen as a little bit naff, whereas now I think it's cool. It's trendy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, 100%.
01:16:11
Speaker
Can we do some hot fire questions? of course. Yeah, go for it. Okay. okay I'm half asleep, but don't worry, I'll do my best. Pardon? What's your go-to midnight snack after service?
01:16:24
Speaker
Oh, bad. Okay, super noodles and crispy chilli oil. Oh, nice. Yeah. What's one ingredient you could live without forever?
01:16:36
Speaker
Eggs.
01:16:39
Speaker
I don't eat eggs. I hate eggs. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Like, and you in any way? Like, what if I gave you a creme brulee, would you hate that? Yeah, I'd eat that. But if i had, like, basically fried, scrambled, anything, like, just on an egg on its own, eat.
01:17:00
Speaker
Yeah. A chef that you would love to cook for, or they can be dead or alive. Um...
01:17:09
Speaker
bra Grant, Grant Alshatz, millennial in Chicago. He's, like, I'm obsessed with him.
01:17:18
Speaker
He's pretty cool. Yeah. um Pre-service hype song. Oh, wow. um Jimi Hendrix, Along the Watchtower.
01:17:32
Speaker
um The most underrated vegetable. um Kohlrabi. think it's quite universal. think you do quite a lot of it. It's so good.
01:17:43
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely. So many people don't know what it is though. When we put it on the menu, some of our guests are like, what's kohlrabi? Yeah. Yeah. it's It's pretty, it's pretty, yeah, you can do quite lot of it.
01:17:56
Speaker
um What do you think the most overhyped ingredient in restaurants is right now? i ah would say, what, if okay, maybe not ingredient, but can say what is, flatbreads are everywhere.
01:18:13
Speaker
Flatbreads everywhere. Ingredient-wise, might
01:18:21
Speaker
have to come back to one. But i think flatbreads, everyone's doing flatbreads at the moment. It's ridiculous.
01:18:30
Speaker
um If you weren't a chef, what would you be? had this question given me the other day. i would be...
01:18:42
Speaker
Right, that what was it? I think I'd be a um might be a gardener or a farmer. think I'd like to do, yeah.
01:18:54
Speaker
Or like pottery. Like vegetable garden or? Yeah, like vegetable garden, yeah. Or pottery or be a farmer, yeah. ah like yeah or pottering oh be a farmerble yeah Let's just say I'm not that smart, but I'm great at my hands. So, yeah.
01:19:16
Speaker
Have you ever made pottery before? Yeah. Pinch pottery. Not good at spinning.
01:19:25
Speaker
Still need to learn. Sounds like you like tactile jobs. Yes, exactly. One million percent.
01:19:33
Speaker
Well, this has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much. um I think your food has a lot to say. um i think everybody should keep an eye out for what's happening next, for the new openings for Around the Clock.
01:19:45
Speaker
I cannot wait to eventually get to London, which never happens, but I will make it happen to try some of the fried chicken. um But thank you so much for taking the time for this. I know you're extremely busy, so I really appreciate it.
01:19:56
Speaker
No worries all. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'll chat you care. See you in a bit, mate. Bye.