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Problem #6: Choosing a System image

Problem #6: Choosing a System

S1 E6 · Designing Problems
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This week Tracy and Kristian delve into the dense subject of RPG game systems, how a system can fundamentally affect the feeling of a setting, choosing one that's right for your game, and even touching on the challenges of creating your own. We also explore some of the ins and outs of licensing different game systems for your project. See the notes below for info on licensing some of the more popular systems.

Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ  The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com  Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/

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Transcript

Intro & Hosts

00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this bout of petty rules lawyering.

What is the RPG System?

00:00:19
Speaker
And this week, we're going to talk about problem number six, choosing a system.
00:00:45
Speaker
Yes. But Tracy, before we get into that, there's one thing I want to do. and Okay. And that is this this being our sixth problem slash episode. Yes. We've had really good reception with the podcast.

Community Engagement

00:01:01
Speaker
ah We had great interaction in our Discord server. Yes.
00:01:05
Speaker
And I just want to say I, for one, and I'm sure you feel the same way, really appreciative of all the support that everyone's given and the enthusiasm for this show that they've given as well. Yes, it's been animated discussions and with people who are very, very smart and know what they're doing. And um it's it's just been really nice to have those kinds of conversations because we're all learning here.
00:01:30
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I know I have definitely learned from, you know, the members of our community, uh, just, you know, seeing their perspectives and so on. I think it's great that everybody's kind of opening up and sharing their experiences and their knowledge and expertise, honestly, cause we're, we're all experts.
00:01:48
Speaker
so We're doing our best here. We're doing our best. We're doing our best. So, so with that said, thank you everybody. Yes. Thanks to everybody.

Choosing Existing Systems

00:01:59
Speaker
So main topic, right? We're talking about choosing a system. Yes. But really we we're we're kind of talking about two things, not just choosing a system, but whether even to do your own system. e But let's talk first about choosing an existing system. Okay. So there are several
00:02:23
Speaker
existing systems out there that are licenseable. What I mean by licenseable is they to provide an avenue for you to use their sort of name in their terms for game mechanics and their way of doing things in a way that, um first of all, avoids you getting into legal trouble and second of all, gets you a little bit of support.
00:02:55
Speaker
right They're not maybe going to endorse your product, but they will give you support by allowing you to put their name on your product by saying, this is this is powered by the apocalypse, or this is a forged in the dark, or this is you know a savage world's ace setting, license setting, or whatever. so That gives you a little bit of telling your audience what kind of system you're going to they're going to expect.
00:03:21
Speaker
And by extension, what kind of game they might expect because of the system you've chosen, right?

System Impact on Gameplay

00:03:28
Speaker
So we'll get into a little bit more about licensing these kinds of systems a little later. But as far as choosing one, I'm a big believer. And there are other people who don't believe this. There are other people who but disagree with me that the system you choose for your game or the system you create for your game affects your game in a fundamental way. um Meaning that Han Cluster in Savage Worlds is going to be a completely different experience than Han Cluster in Fate. Explora in Savage Worlds is going to be a completely different experience than Explora would be in 5e, for example. I believe this very strongly because the mechanics sort of, and this I've kind of gone over this before, the mechanics um
00:04:19
Speaker
are a reflection of what the designer of those mechanics, how they see the world. And when you are matching setting with mechanics, there are bad matches and there are good matches. yes what What are your thoughts on it, Christian?

Systems & Storytelling

00:04:37
Speaker
i think I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it's obviously one of the things that inspired me to do ever everyone for Savage Worlds because I mean, as classic as D&D is, and Eberron having been written for D&D with assumptions about D&D mechanics, especially in third edition, for me personally, the mechanics didn't capture the feel that I was expecting from the setting based on the tone and the lore. And when I first read Savage Worlds, I wasn't even thinking about Eberron at first.
00:05:12
Speaker
But when I started reading the rules, then everyone came first and foremost into my mind. Because to me, that style of gameplay and that and the the sort of the effect that the mechanics had were exactly the experience I wanted from an everyone game. So obviously, I agree.
00:05:34
Speaker
There's also like part of the emphasis I want to say here is that there's not necessarily like one system that will work, only one system that will work for a particular setting. What I what i think we're we're getting at here is that the system influences the setting. It changes what the setting is. A Han cluster game in Fate is just as good and interesting as in in Savage Worlds is.
00:06:01
Speaker
but they are really different experiences. like I embrace some of the things that fate does. Like Savage Worlds is very cinematic. Fate is very, how did I used to put it? It's it's it's like it's like higher level. It's like saying, okay, Savage World says,
00:06:24
Speaker
Can I roll notice to see if there's something around that can help me? Fate says, can I roll notice to notice the big bump that's on the ground that I could run over? right To create the bump. Can I roll notice to create that bump? Savage Worlds is not really like that, right? That's not these that's not the the mentality of Savage Worlds. But the mentality of Fate is that players have some agency to use skills to create world things. To to influence the the circumstances and the situation but beyond just what your character does. right Right. Exactly. Right. You're contributing to the scenario. Exactly. And that's perfectly fine. Right. Right. but and And you can do that. You can do that in either game.
00:07:15
Speaker
But Savage Worlds is more suited toward a simulationist kind of cinematic you know effect, where a fate is is really leaning hard in that let's create this together kind of thing. Yeah. It's almost like your the focus is leaning more toward the co-creating the story versus you know collaborating to play in the same space. Yes. Right. Right. So that makes that makes a setting like HonCluster or Explorer or whatever else you would plug into either of these systems, a different experience. And you lean into that. That's part of the fun of having different systems. Yes.

Player Preferences & Design Pitfalls

00:07:56
Speaker
Is you lean into what they are. Forged in the Dark is very faction based and very
00:08:01
Speaker
um like it it's It's got a completely different mentality about how you create adventures and how you create a setting. yeah And if you don't lean into what it is,
00:08:14
Speaker
It, it, it kind of takes away some of the power of the system, you know? So that's, that's why I say that this marriage of what your mechanics are, the base mechanics, like, you know, how do you, how do you roll a skill role and how do you do all this stuff? Um, and the setting that you're going to match them with is of critical decision. Yeah. I like what you said there about, um,
00:08:44
Speaker
about the system in terms of like, you know, it's not just about helping the setting to shine, but making sure that the setting is helping the system to shine as well.
00:08:56
Speaker
a Like letting the system do the thing it's really good at doing, by having a story that matches. And I think you're right. I think that's just as critical because ultimately the gameplay experience is going to come from the system. And so if you're not letting the system sing the way it wants to sing in the pitch or the tune or whatever it wants to sing,
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to not align. And, um, and I think the system can bring out different aspects of the setting, right? So certainly fate brings out a different aspect of on cluster than Savage Worlds does. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen worse. It's just, it it is.
00:09:40
Speaker
You'll see every now and then on Reddit, somebody's like you know on the Eberron subreddit, oh, what systems do you play Eberron in? and And everybody throws out their you know favorite system, of course, which is great. um and And one of the ones I see often is Blades in the Dark, which I think is great for a specific type of story. Yeah.
00:09:58
Speaker
But everyone has so many different types of stories that can be told in you know using different setting elements. We've talked about this a little before. um But if you're going to do that kind of a story,
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah, Blades in the Dark is absolutely the system I would use for that. you know and And it's gonna sing. yeah It's gonna be awesome. so yeah So

Market Considerations & Known Systems

00:10:22
Speaker
yeah. So I guess what I'm saying is some of you out there who are doing your own thing will already absolutely know what kind of system, what system you wanna use. right Because this is the kind of game you like. you know This is the kind of game that you're looking for. You know the systems that you like and you're like, okay,
00:10:40
Speaker
when i'm looking When I'm trying to create my setting, I know that I'm going to use this system for it because this is the kind of experience that I enjoy. and That's awesome. Yeah. Something I'm curious about. you know Obviously, there are people who have their favorite so system right or maybe a system that that's the only system that they've played and they want to design for it. Do you think that there's a potential, sort of a pitfall in defaulting to designing for for that system?
00:11:10
Speaker
whether or not the the setting suits it. I don't think so because i think that I think that people who enjoy a particular system that they like will know that system well enough to know how to make their setting work for it. Right. Right. I think that if you don't know any other systems out there and you don't you're not familiar with what's out there, you might be not selling yourself short, but you might you might be missing opportunities because there are good ones out there. I'm a obviously a big Savage Worlds person. We both we both are, but I'm well versed in fate.
00:11:50
Speaker
And um I'm also kind of pretty well versed in Apocalypse World, although I don't and don't really love it, but um I know it because i've i so I spent my time, I put my time in and on on Powered by the Apocalypse games. So I know what they are, I know how they work, you know, and they have a specific purpose and a specific strength.
00:12:13
Speaker
Right. But um I think the people who know the system that they like will automatically be gravitating toward creating settings that work for that system, I think. Right. Like they'll already have a slant toward that style of story. Yes, exactly. to suit Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. But I always encourage people to play different things. like Yeah. A couple of years ago, I got to play Cyberpunk Red for the first time and I was like,
00:12:40
Speaker
This isn't bad. This is pretty good. you know like it it It had its own thing and it and it and it's it was it was neat because it like it felt like cyberpunk. It felt right for it. And that and uses its own system, right? Yes. It has its own system. So that's something where you know this the setting in the system are very tightly entwined. Yes. Yep. Oh yeah. And those are awesome. right And like speaking of creating your own, like it's That's the advantage is if I were to create my own system for HAN cluster, number one, I wouldn't be able to do it alone. I'd need help. I'd need Daryl to help me with it because I'm not a dice tricks person. And what I mean by dice tricks are ah the the roles that you make and how to how to change things and and
00:13:28
Speaker
you know, like how to randomize these results in a way that is predictable in a way that works for what you're trying to accomplish, right? I can tweak stuff all day long. I can do Savage World's tweaks to my heart's content. i can I've made fate the way I like it, um you know, but i'm a I'm a big, you know, work with what you have type of person. yeah You know, this this goes back to my theater days as a lighting designer. If I have like,
00:13:57
Speaker
60, you know, fixtures of this type and 30 fixtures of that type and blah, blah, blah. I'm going to make it work. And that's the way it is. But if I have carte blanche and a blank check, I won't know what to do. Yeah. I just don't know what to do. Yeah. Well, it's that whole thing where limitations, you know, kind of foster creativity. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to throw this one thing out there before we move on to creating your own system. And it's only because you and I have talked a little bit about this in the past.
00:14:26
Speaker
the the idea of where the market is, right? Because with the system, it's not just the rules and the mechanics, but then, you know, we're where we are publishers, right? We are designers trying to publish something. but Well, some of us are, not everybody who listened to this podcast. True, true, right. um but But there is that idea of like, where's the market? What's gonna help me sustain the business yeah so that I can continue doing what I love? Yeah, yeah.
00:14:57
Speaker
And so, you know, it's no secret that if you publish and, you know, design publish for 5E, you're probably going to have a much bigger market than say, if you do something for, you know, powered by the apocalypse or, you know, it's after all. Powered by the apocalypse is doing just fine. That's true. Yeah. There's like, I mean, avatar. Magpie is just magris is killing it. With avatar, with root, I mean, all yeah their their properties, they they they're doing a very, very good job. It's, it's, it's shocking how well they're doing. yeah
00:15:32
Speaker
There was another one that was recently announced. I can't remember what it was, but I'll have to look it up. But, uh, yeah, they're, they're just, man, they're, they're pumping it out. It's insane. And 5e, I think, I don't think it necessarily translates to an automatic audience. it It translates to a more, a higher potential audience. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And I think there might be limitations in terms of.
00:15:59
Speaker
um genre fitting with D20 system. you know I'd agree with that. Modern D20 is less of a thing than anything fantasy D20. It just is. But even even like having a fraction of the 5E market is probably going to yield a pretty good result.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, I was told to do five a Hong cluster in 5E. And of course you know of course I was. And yeah I'm like, maybe one day, but I can't do it first.
00:16:37
Speaker
because it was it it first started out as fate, and and and now and and then it transitioned into savage rules, and that's where it is. That's where its home is, that's its that's its pedigree, yeah that's where it's going to stay until it's done. Then I might move it to something else, right? Release it under some other system, and that's perfectly legit. And of course, when I do that,
00:17:00
Speaker
I will tailor that setting for that system. I want just like dual starting is kind of stupid because it doesn't have any, it doesn't embrace the system. Right. Well, and it doesn't allow the story to embrace the system. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah, you're just kind of filling in spots. But again, people disagree with me. People think, oh no, I can do it i could do this particular setting in any in any rule system. if i want to If I want to do this in a different rule system, can I just port it over. right But I think it's still you're sacrificing something with that yeah and it's possible and it might be good, yeahp but I still think it could be better.
00:17:39
Speaker
you know, if you, if you tailored it, if you tailored it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot to think about there and, and you know, some people won't think about it. They'll just do what they, what they know. And that's totally fine. Totally fine. Right.

Creating a New RPG System

00:17:55
Speaker
Just realize that there are other systems out there and some of them are really pretty cool and they're all ah not all of them, but a lot of them are licenseable in a very, either free or affordable way.
00:18:09
Speaker
And we may be able to get time to touch on that at the end of the episode. But um yeah, there are a bunch out there. So Tracy, you know what? Screw it. I'm not going to do an existing system. Screw these people. yep I can do it better. I can do something that matches my setting the way I want it to. And it's going to be awesome and brilliant. Everybody's going to love it. and I'm going to create my own system.
00:18:33
Speaker
Oh crap, I'm going to create my own system. Right? Like that is not a trivial thing. No, it's not. It is not. I've seen it. I've seen it happen firsthand because Daryl created his own system for space 1889. Yeah. Um, when he was working on it, uh, under Ulysses right spiel before it moved to, uh,
00:18:59
Speaker
I can't remember who got, I know who got it, Tim Brown got it, but I can't remember his company. um But they released it. And Daryl didn't get to quite finish it. um So somebody else took it over because he was still working for Ulysses at the time, right? And and so so I watched him go through this process. And Daryl is way more qualified than me to create his own system.
00:19:27
Speaker
Like he's just got the mentality for it. And like I said, if I were was going to try it, I wouldn't do it without him because it would take me years and years and years to do it without him. But man, is it a daunting thing.
00:19:43
Speaker
Like, ah yes, you get to do what you want. Yes, you can tailor it specifically to match a specific thing. Like originally, um the Cypher system was not a Cypher system, it was Numenera. It was specifically made for Numenera, the Numenera site. It still works best with Numenera. The 2D20 system really, really works well with Star Trek.
00:20:12
Speaker
It just super does because it was kind of made for Star Trek, right? And um that's true of a lot of these things and a lot of role-playing games use their own systems. and but And you can talk about tailoring, you know, make it blades in the dark. is It has forged in the dark, which is its system, yeah but it's really hard to extricate that system from blades in the dark.
00:20:41
Speaker
Like it it takes a lot of it it takes a little bit of like work to figure out how to really do that well. and And so that's the advantage of creating your own system besides not being beholden to a license or whatever. But man, I don't know. Would you do it?
00:21:03
Speaker
No, I would not only because, well, the only reason, the only way I would do it is if I already had a foundation of something that maybe I've been tinkering with and I've tested it and I'm like, you know what? There's something here, right? And then maybe I would consider that.
00:21:21
Speaker
but if I were just creating a new setting and I'm like, yeah, I just want to do my own thing, you're like, no way. I think that's, to me, now you're you're your're you're having to create mental space for the mechanics and do they work? Do they facilitate the story? And then the actual story itself, you know, and the the setting, the lore, the the adventures, the, you know, the characters, the character options, you know. Um, like having a system for character options is one thing. What character options you provide is another, right? What's fitting to the setting and so on. So that, that to me is, it's so overwhelming and I'm, and I'm much more comfortable with working with something that exists.
00:22:08
Speaker
um Kind of like we we talked about, like with limitations, yeah you know, fosters foster boundaries, it fosters creativity. and and ah And usually my inspiration comes from, oh, I could use this element, this type of system thing to do this kind of experience, right? And that's that's where i I kind of come from. um But yeah, i i designing a system is so intimidating to me because it's also,
00:22:38
Speaker
what I might think is creative, you know other people might not. you know They might feel like it's like too complicated it or too simple or you know where are all my character options? Why are there only 20 spells or you know whatever it might be? And then there's also just the the aspect of like getting people to shift you know There's a certain amount of inertia with the existing systems that they that they're comfortable with, that they're familiar with. Even if at one time, like we just named several, those systems were new, but they were coupled with a particular you know type of game. But I don't want to discourage people. The thing is, if there's a good reason to do it if you just want to do it.
00:23:22
Speaker
Yeah, I should be clear. This is totally me because yeah I have ADHD. But I think I think, you know, I have messed with it. And actually now I'm thinking about it. I'm like, I think I would still mess with it. Sure. But I think I think the key for people like you and me.
00:23:40
Speaker
who there might be a bunch of us out there is to start small and Don't think in terms of here's my grand Operatic setting world with five different planets and you know spaceships and all this other stuff How do I handle all this instead? start from the perspective of an adventure and And, you know, maybe work from there. Like what I was working on when I was actually trying to do this was I was working on a K-pop saves the world adventure. And I wanted to do my own setting or my own rules for it. yeah yeah Because I wanted it to feel very, very tightly integrated.
00:24:23
Speaker
with the feeling that I was going for. And K-pop is its own thing and we won't go into that. Yeah, it's a vibe. It's a whole... It's a vibe. It's absolutely a... It's its own thing. And I wanted mechanics that married with it, not just... you know, brought in from somewhere else. And I still have it in the back of my head, right? I still have notes on it that I was messing around with it. And the thing is, of course I'm borrowing from other systems. Of course I am. I'm borrowing from like the old Dr. Who system, this like D6 system that works pretty well. I borrowed from Powered by the Apocalypse at one point, you know, I borrowed from Savage Worlds and that's okay.
00:25:09
Speaker
Like that's perfectly fine. That's horatious's how you do this. And but a lot of really, really smart people have done all this work already. You might as well borrow from them. But I don't know. I guess I would start small, you know, don't do what Darryl did, which is, I mean, Darryl was, Darryl started smaller. He had published his own system for like um spaceship fights. It was called Hard Vacuum. It was really cool. You know, it was done a long time ago. It was published under ah under a company. I have a copy of it. It's very cool. nice But that was a long time ago and he he made his own. yeah Huge respect for that. It's actually really fun. it's that's cool I mean, it's that's really cool. i that So anyway, so I guess i'd'd I'd start small if you want to do it. But but yeah if you want to do it for its own sake, don't let us dissuade you.
00:26:02
Speaker
No, absolutely. Like, like I said, that was, that was more for me in terms of like, I would not do that, but there are very smart people who they know how to, you know, think about statistics and the dice rolls and, you know, what are the best dice mechanics to use for what type of thing. Um, and that's how we get a lot of the new systems like powered by the apocalypse or, you know, uh, blades in the dark and things like that, fortune Genesis, and genesis yeah whatever. else Exactly, that's how we get that. And you and i think i think it's I think it's really cool to see new systems come out and to see what they can do and what light they shine you know on gameplay. I think that's awesome. um So yes, by no means was I trying to discourage anyone. It's just not for me personally. but Yeah, it's it's daunting.

Licensing & Legal Aspects

00:26:53
Speaker
It is. it is yeah And I guess my last bit of advice there is,
00:26:57
Speaker
When you're doing it, yeah test, test, test, test, test, test. You just have to test again and again and again and then not try not to try not to let it get you down because you're going to run into roadblocks. Darryl did. he He would try things and he'd with with space 18 and nine and he would just be like, yeah, that didn't work. I got to go back to the drawing board on that. yeah it's It's similar to to adventure design in that regard, right? like yeah Where it's like, does this work? No. Okay. And and you know how do you weed out the the valid versus the invalid you know feedback that you get? yeah and And how do you know which things to change and which things to tweak or remove or whatever?
00:27:38
Speaker
yeah It's the same kind of thing, like very much you only you can figure that out. yeah ah yeah Others may have suggestions, others may have ideas and reactions, yeah but you're the only one who can figure out. I mean, I remember I was in the in the conversation when Suede was happening.
00:27:56
Speaker
when Suede, the new edition of Savage Rules was being developed. So I was a part of some of these discussions and watching what would happen was fascinating in the in the play test phase, the early play test phase, especially before he gave it out to anybody else. We would have new rules all the time. And what would happen is he would change something not not where you think it would change, but you know in a different part of the book. yeah like This would handle the change for this. like You would say, oh i think i wish I can't give a specific example, but I wish this would work differently. And Shane would go, hmm, okay. They wouldn't change that.
00:28:40
Speaker
he was doing something else that knew that different. Well, that's kind of like, you know, the, the, the, a symptom versus a problem, right? Like you're, what you're seeing in gameplay is a symptom of something. Yeah. And then you're like, when you think about it and you're like, Oh, Oh, the problem isn't this. The problem is this over here that affects this or are these two or three things, there are these two or three things, right? Like it's the synergy of these things that yeah it's creating this problem.
00:29:06
Speaker
you know, when they're when they're combined or whatever. It was fascinating. That's pretty cool. He would change stuff yeah in a different area of the book that I wouldn't even think of. yeah And then i wouldn't I'd say, oh, he didn't change that. That's a bummer. And then I'd realize, oh no, but he changed this. Oh, that makes a lot more sense. that's That's a really cool way to handle that, right? It's not necessarily the way I would do it or Daryl would do it or whoever.
00:29:34
Speaker
it It's Shane's baby. is Shane working with Clint at this point trying to get this refined and fixed and to a point where like, okay, this is fun. yeah Fascinating is what it was. I learned quite a bit watching that process.
00:29:49
Speaker
I'll throw this out there and and if yeah i don't I don't want to spend too much time on this, but i one of my concerns too with with building my own system and why another reason why I haven't done it is just general interest, right? like Because you have to get the market for it. yeah like I think some of the systems, you know like Cypher and whatnot, um some of those succeed because they come from somebody who's established right and who knows you know has a reputation, does good design work, and you know they're known to do good stuff. You have good good design sensibilities.
00:30:29
Speaker
um And then there's some that just caught fire for whatever reason. you know It was a small publisher you know or first timer who just had the social network, you know the the people following or whatever it might've been. And it just grew and grew and grew and grew over 10 years, 15 years, however long.
00:30:49
Speaker
you know, it did. And I would even dare to say that some of those products were, were small products. They weren't intended necessarily to be massive successes. They weren't kickstarters, you know, that were massive or anything. It was just a small little thing that somebody put out and then people just, you know, grabbed onto it. Bob Phillips world. Yep. Exactly. So in this day and age, in the age of kickstarters, what are your thoughts on, on that aspect of having to market and build the interest for your system?
00:31:17
Speaker
you know and And then dealing with the friction of you know people who already have their favorite systems or whatever. Yeah. There's there's a couple of things. One is there are people who are making their own systems out there all the time. True. There's i mean there's there's a a wave, a flood of powered by the apocalypse games out there, but there are also some indie games that use very simple systems that are their own.
00:31:41
Speaker
you know like A couple i I can think of off the top of my head is One Child's Heart, which was made by my friend, Camden Wright. He uses his own system, specifically for what One Child's Heart is. um Kekagami High uses its own table-based system. like I think Mothership uses its own system, and Mothership blew up like crazy. right you know like it It just went bananas.
00:32:08
Speaker
and how what Why? I don't know, but it just did. like Somehow they knew what they were doing. They they they did the right things, but I think it uses its own system. and so If there's room out there for it, if you want to make a new universal system, now you're getting into trouble.
00:32:28
Speaker
Well, yeah, there's that. Yeah. um and And I heard advice from Ken Hight, who sort of contributed to the gumshoe system, which was created by Robin Laws, along with his own accomplishments, which are many. um He's like, yeah, these days, you're better off just using one of the established ones. I mean, that's that's what he thought, yeah at at least as a universal system. if you want to make if you're If you're looking specifically to make a universal system that works for anything, you know like GURPS or Savage Worlds, or you know I don't know that
00:33:09
Speaker
a lot of these other newer systems have become universal but started somewhere else, right? um But he's he's like, yeah, don just use one of those. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's fair. But I would also argue, to your your point earlier, where these these newer systems really, they're not quite universal. They're like Savage Rolls, where they're adapted to suit the setting, right? More so than Savage Rolls, probably. Yeah, yeah.
00:33:35
Speaker
Right. And so, so they're not like, here's the generic, I mean, I guess Cypher. Cypher, but Cypher started Numenera. Cypher started Numenera. And then it was broken off into Cypher. But if you think about like kids on bikes, right? And you know, kids on brooms and you know, et cetera, et cetera. Super simple systems. Super simple systems, but they're, but they are tailored specifically for their setting. So I think there's, I think that still kind of leans toward,
00:34:03
Speaker
they're not quite universal systems, truly. um Not like GURPS, where its purpose and its design was to be universal. Yeah, or hero system, which I think started with champions though. So yeah yeah it grew out of supers and then became hero system, I think. Well, D20 grew out of D and&D, yeah twenty and Pathfinder grew out of D and&D and you know so on and so forth. so you know there's There's plenty of that throughout history, successful things. But creating your own universal system, oh man, what ah what a daunting thing. I know people have tried. I think Ken's advice is right, i think because there's enough out there now that can be tweaked to um to work for you. Yes. So so with that in mind, let's let's talk about using something existing then. And I think this is this is kind of where we'll we'll probably wrap up the discussion.
00:35:00
Speaker
you know We know that there's a bunch of game systems out there. We talked about licensing already, and they all have their rules. and so um so let's so talk Talk a little bit about that, Tracy. Let's let's say, you know for example, like what are these different licenses? What can they allow? you know What do they not allow?
00:35:19
Speaker
Well, it really is so dependent on the system. right so some there are a couple There are a few out there that are very open. One of them is FATE. FATE is super open. It's basically you know the most permissive Creative Commons license, which basically, if you're using any of their SRD, which is the system reference document, that's a general term in RPG land that they release specific language that includes the rules, the basic rules of the system and in their language and stuff, you can copy it directly. And if you do that, you have to give attribution, right? So with fate, for example, if you can, you can copy their SRD as much as you want. And they've got SRDs for all their like,
00:36:03
Speaker
um toolkits and some of their settings even, which is very rare. Like most companies, they they cut they draw the line at you being able to work on their settings. They allow you to use their rules, but not their settings. Fame is, there's some settings that are that are open for you to mess around with. They've got their own SRDs. that's cool Like Venture City, like for example.
00:36:29
Speaker
Meaning you can copy and you can use them, put them in your books. As long as you give a powered by fate or whatever the heck the thing is and and give a little disclaimer inside your book that says you're borrowing this from fate, give proper credit to Evil Hat Games, all that stuff. Forged in the dark is the same way. and It's also Evil Hat Games, just a different designer. Open, very open license. you don't have to You don't know royalties, you just have to give attribution. Then there are others that um are a little less permissive. and One of those is like Monte Cook Games Cypher System Open License. so um They have certain rules you have to follow if you want to use their SRD.
00:37:14
Speaker
and um and put a little you know powered by Cypher or whatever the logo is there. right um You can, for example, with powered by so with the Cypher system open license, you can crowdfund. There are some licenses out there where you can't. you have to if you If you want to do anything with it, you got to put it on drive through RPG.
00:37:37
Speaker
period, right? that The Genesis is like that. So the Edge Studio Genesis system, you have to do it on drive-through and you have to, like, there are automatic sort of royalties you've got to pay that drive-through automatically takes out. Just like Swag does. yeah So yeah Swag for Savage Worlds automatically takes the royalties out for you and then you make whatever you make on on the on the back end.
00:38:04
Speaker
Then there's the ACE license for Savage Worlds, which is pretty restrictive, actually, in comparison to, say, Fate or even the open license for Cypher, which is there's very few things you can actually copy from the books. right You have to reference the Savage Worlds books instead. But they don't claim any ownership over your original IP, anything that you bring. So if I do Savage Worlds as an ACE license, which I'm doing, oh Pinnacle doesn't own any of my my work on HAN cluster at all. right All they own is the mechanics that i'm but I'm referencing. Most of them do that. Most of them don't claim ownership over anything that you write for them unless you're writing for one of their settings. right right So there are some that say you can write for one of this one of our IP settings, but we're going to claim ownership over everything you write.
00:39:00
Speaker
yeah And there's reasons for that. There's legal reasons. Cause some, some people are after looking for getting like TV deals and movie deals and stuff. And if, if, if it's an open kind of free for all, then it makes it very difficult for any sort of like Netflix or whatever. Just say, what do you own and what do you not own? Right. Right. It's not clean cut. Yeah. Which is why deadlands is closed. You can't do anything deadlands unless you go through pinnacle.
00:39:26
Speaker
DMs Guild. The owns it all because they own Greyhawk, they own Eberron, they own Forgotten Realms, and they want to make sure they own yeah they they hold on to the IP, the trademarks and such. um And DMs Guild is through Drive-Thru. Right. and um they don't own any they don't claim ownership over your IP. If you wanted to create something new with it with the mechanics, but anything you do for any of their stuff, it's going to be theirs. And then there's other ways. So so
00:40:02
Speaker
All these community content programs in DTRPG, there's a bunch of them and they each have their own rules. You have to go and look at them. Some of them even have their own site. And some of these licenses also are open where anybody can just create whatever they want. And then others require like an approval process just to become a licensee. Some might have an approval process per product, depending, you know, it can vary, right? And some of that might be because of, you know, they want to have a certain you know branding in terms of their um what types of games you know are associated with their but the game, right? yeah um Or a certain level of quality. A certain level of quality, exactly. Which is what the ACE thing is about. Yes, yes. So so yeah, there's but there's not just the community programs in DTRPG. They have their own site, so Fade has its own um
00:40:57
Speaker
licensing site. yeah a Free League, year zero engine has its own licensing site. That's pretty permissive if I remember correctly. Modiphius World Builders has their own site. So go out there if you want to use some of these things. Modiphius is 2D20. If you want to use some of these systems,
00:41:15
Speaker
there There's a bunch of licensing out there, and it's not as scary as it sounds. if Licensing is way more scary than we're going to talk about next episode when you're trying to do IP stuff. But with systems, they've generally got this figured out where you know we want you to use our

Episode Wrap-Up & Community Invitation

00:41:34
Speaker
system. we want We want stuff made for our system, so this benefits us. But um there are various rules that different companies make you follow.
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I think also too that one of the fascinating things about these licenses is, you know, there's there's this, there's I'll say notion, but that there's actually like legal standing for this about game mechanics not being copyrighted. They can't be copyrighted.
00:42:01
Speaker
But I think a lot of people misunderstand what that actually means. And before we get into this, Tracy and I, we want to make it very clear, we are not lawyers. If you, if you want to know more about this, please consult a lawyer. We're just kind of giving what armchair, you know, nonsense we've derived. We have talked to lawyers. Yeah, right. Yeah. I took a class on, you know, media law. Um, but, um,
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah, the the the idea that game mechanics are not copyrighted, um yes, that is true. However, people mistake that to mean that they can just say to copy and paste the rules, put it in their own book, because, hey, it's not copyrightable. That's not true. the what what What is copyrighted is the body of work itself, the expression of those rules, right? And so the words that are used to convey the idea, to convey that mechanic is copyrighted.
00:43:01
Speaker
yep You could, in theory, take your own thoughts about that mechanic and write it in your own words and republish it. I would argue it's probably not a good idea to do that simply because of familiarity and market. Why not just use, say, Savage Worlds, as is,
00:43:24
Speaker
And then you also have recognition among, you know, the customers and so on to, um you know, basically to point to it and say, you know, this game, this is what the game is. Right. But if you did want to take some, like we were talking about inspiration, Tracy, you drew inspiration from different mechanics from different systems. That is okay.
00:43:45
Speaker
because that you're saying, oh yeah, let me take that idea of that that mechanic and let me twist it, change it, modify it, or present it just for this specific thing in my own words, in my own implementation. And also please consider too that there's a difference between copyright and trademark. So that's why logos and names and things like that are also still protected even though you know it's not a copyright thing, it's it is a trademark thing. yeah vietnam Any additional thoughts on that?
00:44:14
Speaker
there are There's also a misconception about there are a few things that are actually patented. yes so um For example, turning a card on its side and calling it tapped That actually is patented. Right. You can't do that. You can't use it. And, uh, an example of somebody not using that as fantasy flight games, they turn their card on the side and they call it exhausted. Right. They can't use the word tapped. And the reason for that is because the, at the time when magic was being developed, it was such a new, new thing. It was a, it was, it was so unusual.
00:45:00
Speaker
that um they could patent it. So this gets super complicated, but there are mechanics out there for games that are patented. Right. And so that's just something to be aware of. Just to say that all mechanics are not protected is not exactly true.
00:45:22
Speaker
Yeah. Copyrighted and patented are two different things. Yes. Yeah. Be mindful of that. And again, consult a lawyer if you have questions about that. Yes. So yeah, that's that. that's that's Yeah. Yeah. So um I guess that wraps it up, man. we We've been going for a while here on this. Yeah. It's, it's dense stuff and maybe not useful. I don't know, but at least you heard us talk about it a little bit. so I think at the least it's going to help people spark their own thoughts and considerations regarding their games. Yeah.
00:45:58
Speaker
There's a lot of stuff out there and there's and yeah a lot of these companies really, they encourage you to use their systems. yeah So don't be afraid to look at their licensing stuff. Most of this stuff is not that hard. You just follow some rules, that's it. And you don't have to go where the money is. Go go to the game system that you like. yeah yeah Do the thing that you love. um yeah Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community. If you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems, because you're bound to solve a few along the way.