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238 - Man of Steel (2014)
62 Plays6 days ago
“On my world, it means hope.”
There's a new Superman movie in theaters, so we're answering the important questions! Things like: Does this film even fit our format? Does Zack Snyder understand Superman as a character? What comics does Stephen recommend for the person seeking to understand how Superman fits in a modern context? And wait… this movie was marketed to churches??
Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's… the Disenfranchised Podcast's social media accounts:
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Transcript
Introduction to Disenfranchised Podcast
00:00:28
Speaker
podcast that's right we're the disenfranchised podcast that podcast all about those franchises of one those films that fancy themselves full-fledged franchises before falling flat on their face after the first film i am your host steven foxworthy and joining me today as always up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's tucker hey tucker hello steven how we doing a tonight man i'm doing well how are you I'm doing i'm well.
00:00:55
Speaker
Despite having watched this movie, I'm doing okay. You know what's weird? is I'm doing well because i essentially watched six hours of this movie today. Good God.
00:01:07
Speaker
I watched The Man of Steel and then I was like, ooh, ooh, do I have enough time to watch the ultimate cut of Batman vs. Superman? Oh, God, why? oh God, why? Because it has more setup. I love that political shit at the beginning. That's like the best part.
00:01:22
Speaker
And that's the extra half hour is all that shit with what's-her-nuts from um Holly Hunter. Yes, Holly Hunter from Raising Arizona. ah You better go there get me, baby.
00:01:34
Speaker
Get me, baby. Don't miss me, Grandma Sweetie. I love her. She's great. No, I love all that setup. and it's it's And it's almost in some points, it sort of reminds me of the kind of like...
00:01:48
Speaker
government drama espionage kind of shit that like we saw in like three days of the Condor. like kind of The first half of Batman vs. Superman kind of reminds me of that a little bit in tone, and it's really interesting.
00:02:00
Speaker
But we're not here to talk about Batman vs. Superman, Steven. What movie are we here to listen to? God knows we're not. God knows we're not. um I would have fucking rioted. ah There's a new Superman movie in theaters
Man of Steel and Zack Snyder's Influence
00:02:12
Speaker
this week, Tucker. And so in honor of that, we are here to talk about
00:02:18
Speaker
2013 Zack Snyder film, Man of Steel, directed by Zack Snyder, written by David S. Goyer, ah starring Henry Cavill, Amy Adams, Michael Shannon, Kevin Costner, Diane Lane, Lawrence Fishburne, Anche Traway, I am so sorry, I butchered your name, Ayelet Zurer,
00:02:41
Speaker
ah Christopher Maloney, Russell Crowe, Harry Lennox. yeah Who else? Christina Wren, we got in here. Richard, the great Richard Schiff, the ah the voice of Carla Gugino, one of my all-time crushes.
00:02:54
Speaker
um Mackenzie Gray, Michael Kelly. The list goes on and on What a cast. God, dare I say it? Dare I, Tucker? I don't know if I do, but I will anyway. That's my catchphrase.
00:03:05
Speaker
What a picture. yeah dude. And may I say, if you're going to make a comic book movie, you may as well at least give David S. Goyer a pass at it. Just, I mean, just because he's the kind of the guy.
00:03:18
Speaker
This was the era for David S. Goyer. Let's fucking get into David S. Goyer. Yes, please. This is where we were going to start, but this is where we're fucking starting. I love this man. This man's career is so, like, it's such a hilly road, you know?
00:03:31
Speaker
So many, like, peaks and valleys. Oh, my God, yes. what ah What a, what a, what God, what a, yes, what a career, I think, is the right way to say that here.
00:03:42
Speaker
um he He is kind of, again, at this point, he is the guy. um Warner has this tendency to do, like, they would hire the guy who had had the most recent superhero success.
00:03:59
Speaker
And they'd be like, you know, but what's your take on Superman? They did that with b Brian. ah He Who Must Not Be Named, sorry, almost named him, after X-Men. They got him to direct Superman Returns.
00:04:10
Speaker
They did it with Snyder after ah he did 300 and watchmen and they're doing it now with James gunn after guardians of the
Warner Bros.' Director Choices
00:04:17
Speaker
galaxy. Like you did that great big superhero thing. What's your take on Superman?
00:04:22
Speaker
And it has to this point not worked out particularly well for them. I'm hoping you and I had this conversation. We'll get into it at the end toward the end of this episode on our, our thoughts for the upcoming James gunn, Superman movie. But for right now, let's talk David S Goyer.
00:04:38
Speaker
um Yes. If I can get his additional credits to load. um well serious but It's important to mention that Steven has a different setup because his computer has passed away.
00:04:51
Speaker
RIP a legend. RIP my old computer and its tendency to suck nads. oh and not at David S. Goyer, um I will also mention, i don't know if you mentioned it, but Christopher Nolan gets a story credit on this. Yes.
00:05:11
Speaker
He and Goyer both, and Nolan is the executive producer. There was this notion that initially there was going to be some sort of crossover between this and the this and the the Nolan Batman films that was eventually scrapped.
00:05:28
Speaker
ah My computer is not fucking lit. Let me see if I can do this on my phone. I think that... probably could have maybe worked. But also, I mean, even when they replaced Batman, he stayed on as producer and consultant on at least, at least on Batman v Superman.
00:05:45
Speaker
So here's Goyer. Goyer starts in the early nineties. His first screenplay is death warrant. Uh, and then he does to the road back.
00:05:58
Speaker
He writes the screenplay for the, uh, full moon, uh, film demonic toys. Yeah, dude. um Also, the Puppet Masters, the Crow City of Angels...
00:06:09
Speaker
Now, we have to, since since since we are speaking here and no one is looking at this list, um since we said demonic toys, you might assume that when we say the Puppet Masters, we're talking about something in the Puppet Masters series, which is also part of the Demonic Toys series, but it's not. The Puppet Masters is a weird alien movie with Malcolm McDowell, or Donald Sutherland. I get them mixed up all the time.
00:06:32
Speaker
I've never actually seen but the trailer it was... get Malcolm McDowell and Donald Sutherland mixed up? I do. The trailer for it was on my Crow VHS, and so I watched it. I've seen the trailer to that movie a lot of times.
00:06:44
Speaker
He writes the screenplay for um Dark City. Great movie. But his comic book ah adaptation, his first comic book adaptation is the television film Nick Fury colon Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
00:06:58
Speaker
starring David Hasselhoff. I may correct you, Stephen, The Crow City of Angels is his first comic book adaptation. My apologies. I always forget. actually Sorry, go ahead. No, no. I just always forget that The Crow is like was based on a comic book.
00:07:12
Speaker
well and actually there are some elements of City of Angels ah that were changed from the original. Well, in the original film, they were changed from the source material. And then when they got a new character, they put some of those elements back in.
00:07:27
Speaker
So like the first two films are an amalgamation of the original. It's like different parts of the original comic. And i the second film should have been a good movie. It's one of those movies that I like because of its potential.
00:07:41
Speaker
It's also in another movies that Harvey fucking Weinstein got his grubby little hands on and cut to shit, which is why it sucks. was going say, yeah, that's that's kind of his thing. That's the one with Vincent Perez as the titular girl.
00:07:57
Speaker
Yes. Anyway, you were talking about Nick Fury, and then we were going to talk about Blade, I think? And then we were going to talk about Blade, yeah. ah Only going to be one Blade, because they're not making a Blade movie in the MCU anytime soon.
00:08:09
Speaker
um He does... Both Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Blade come out in 1998. ah Blade 2, he's got a writer credit both on Blade 2 in 2002, and Blade Trinity 2004. in 2005... Didn't he direct that one? Blade Trinity? in two thousand and four then didn't he direct i bla trinity Yeah.
00:08:29
Speaker
Did he? going check. He might have done. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did? Yeah, I think your computer's running a little quicker than mine right now. um I'm using my phone, so.
00:08:42
Speaker
Yep, well, there you go. um But then, after that, he jumps from 2004 Blade Trinity. He goes, Batman Begins. Like, talk about a complete 180 there. Blade Trinity. ah batman be game original series blade trinity it Okay.
00:08:57
Speaker
Interesting. He also develops the Blade television series in 2006. Fuck anybody who says it's not a good show, it's a really good show.
00:09:08
Speaker
Okay. um He also is... um He is also the screenwriter on a feature episode of this podcast, ah Jumper. I believe our our good buddy Devon Taylor has dibs on that episode. So if you like hearing Devon on our show...
00:09:26
Speaker
ah Buckle up, because he's going to talk about Jumper with us. um That was a Doug Liman movie. Interesting. Okay.
Sequel Debate: Man of Steel vs. Batman vs. Superman
00:09:33
Speaker
Oh, Simon Kinberg wrote on that as well. Okay. Okay. um And then he does the dark got ah Batman Gotham Night, which is the video.
00:09:42
Speaker
ah He does a segment In Darkness Dwells. And then The Dark Knight. um He's the creator of the show Flash Forward, which I watched at least five episodes of before giving up on it.
00:09:55
Speaker
He is the screenwriter of Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance in 2011 and eleven yeah and the Dark Knight Rises in 2012.
00:10:05
Speaker
Spirit of Vengeance. um it's I've heard it's the second best Ghost Rider movie. and Well, here's the deal. The first Ghost Rider movie is a better film script-wise.
00:10:20
Speaker
It makes more sense. It actually makes a little sense. um Spirit of Vengeance is one of the silliest, dumbest movies I've ever seen. But damn it, it's some of the best action I've ever seen filmed. Practical action. Like, these motherfuckers just threw a camera off a cliff and hoped that the SD card stayed alive inside.
00:10:42
Speaker
And it looks fantastic. Everything in that movie is just... Oh, man. It's like... It's like Crank. You ever seen of the Crank movies? God, no. I have i have some lack of self-respect.
00:10:55
Speaker
They're absolute dog shit, but damn it if it's not the most exciting thing you'll ever experience in your life. Woo! Get these guys a good script and there's no stopping them, is what i'm saying.
00:11:07
Speaker
Fair enough. um After Man of Steel, he goes on to develop the um the show Constantine ah for the WB. And then he also writes the follow-up to this film. I would not call it a sequel. I know you would, but and I would not. Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice.
00:11:26
Speaker
We can talk about it whenever because it literally opens with a recap from Man of Steel.
00:11:35
Speaker
Okay? It's a sequel. The whole movie is dealing with the events from Man of Steel. The whole movie yeah is the other movie. And yet, Tucker...
00:11:47
Speaker
It has a combined total over over over the course of two and a half to three hours, depending on what cut you're watching. It features a grand total of 15 minutes of Superman on screen. It is not a fucking sequel to this movie. I'm sorry. It's a sequel to this movie. movie And I don't trust your opinion until you watch Batman versus the Superman again.
00:12:09
Speaker
Which I did. I did the homework, Steven. And I don't care. Have you seen the ultimate cut, though? That's the one, man. Fuck no. Fuck no. Why would i why but I do that to myself, Tucker? I will tell you why, Steven. Because I went to see Batman vs. Superman at the movie theater, and let me tell you, I hated it. is I fucking hated it But just like Rob Zombie's Halloween 2, which I also saw at the theater, it stuck with me. I was like, man, that sucks, but why can't I stop thinking about it?
00:12:39
Speaker
why is it Why is it not leaving me alone? And then I saw that ultimate cut, and I realized why. Because I knew there was something else there. And the something else that is there is is a good time.
00:12:51
Speaker
and it's almost like two movies. It's almost like, I don't even know who the fuck she's supposed to be. But anyway, um it's so it's like two movies, right? fucking scientist this right I don't know.
00:13:02
Speaker
So here's what I do when I watch Batman vs. Superman Ultimate Cut. Like, the first half is all the political stuff, the build-up, and all of that. And about at the the hour and a half mark, you stop the movie, you take a toilet,
00:13:19
Speaker
You get yourself some food, go out for a smoke, come back, you start it, and the action starts. It's real it's very split right down the middle, man.
00:13:30
Speaker
Right down the middle. But as soon as that government building gets bombed, all bets are off. It's time to fuck around. Let's go. Let's go. Let's ah scoot McNary in the wheelchair.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Henry Cavill says, and I quote, I wouldn't call this a Superman sequel. This is Batman versus Superman. It's a separate entity altogether.
00:13:53
Speaker
It's introducing the Batman character and expounding upon the universe, which was kicked off by Man of Steel. But I will argue that everything, e I don't care how much Superman is in this movie, everything that happens in this movie happens because of Man of Steel.
00:14:10
Speaker
Everything. Which makes it a spinoff at best, but not a sequel. I disagree, but I respect your opinion, Steven. i I think of this as a kind of X-Men Origins Wolverine ah kind of a thing.
00:14:27
Speaker
Because that one did end up starting its own sort of franchise of Wolverine movies, but it was intended to do something different. yeah This was intended to start a series of Superman
Superman's Portrayal and Legacy
00:14:39
Speaker
movies, and it didn't do that.
00:14:41
Speaker
What it did was they they used it as a way to jerry-rig in, adjust this because this movie comes out a year after the Avengers, after de after Marvel proves that you could do franchise superhero storytelling.
00:14:53
Speaker
um And so everyone wants to get on that bandwagon. The problem is DC already has this movie in the pipeline. So instead of developing a sequel to Man of Steel, which they probably should have done, they instead decide they design a backdoor pilot to a Justice League movie.
00:15:09
Speaker
Justice League in our lifetime. is basically what the mantra becomes. Oh, but guess what? Batman vs. Superman is the first time you get to hear that banging fucking Wonder Woman theme.
00:15:20
Speaker
Holy shit.
00:15:27
Speaker
Oh my god, gets to me every time. Every time. I don't like the Wonder Woman movies as much. you was with you But that theme, holy shit. That theme is so good.
00:15:38
Speaker
One of the best. One of the best. For sure. It's good. It's real good. It's real good. But I don't consider this a sequel to or the that Batman v Superman a sequel to this film. It's I think it's I would agree with Cavill. It's its own thing.
00:15:54
Speaker
That said, they did try many times to get a sequel to this movie off the ground, even as even as recently as 2018, 2020, and it just didn't work. like I think after Cavill reprises his role in Black Adam, people were like, oh, okay, are we finally going to get that Man of Steel sequel?
00:16:18
Speaker
And then... the yeah The gun announcement was made, and that pretty much shot everything that had been up to that point in the foot. Well, that's, I think, what is so disappointing, um because I always heard of like, oh, they're going to do Man of Steel 2, and I'm like, but they did Batman versus Superman. But at the same time, Steven, I understand what you're saying. He's barely in Batman versus Superman.
00:16:40
Speaker
He's also barely fucking in Justice League. Like, after Man of Steel, we just get a little bit of Superman every once in a while. He's always dead or off doing some shit, or we have to watch Batman a whole bunch so we can develop that character.
00:16:53
Speaker
Or in Shazam, he's only shown from the neck down. Yeah, yeah. like it's It's shit like that. Or in the Flash, you have to bring in Supergirl because we don't have Cavill contracted for this movie. I like that. I don't remember what that gal's name is, but I thought she was fantastic. The perfect, like, yin to his yang. Like, the anti-Superman almost. She was so emo. I loved it.
00:17:16
Speaker
Right. um but But, yeah, i um the initial conceit... Here's the thing about Superman movies. Everyone always says, if we get a sequel, we're doing Brainiac.
00:17:30
Speaker
But no one fucking puts Brainiac in the first movie. The first movie is always either Luther or Zod. That's it. Those are the only two villains from the comics that had ever shown up in a Superman movie. Which is why I was kind of hoping Gunn would go Brainiac.
00:17:47
Speaker
Because no one's ever done Brainiac before. I don't know that he is. Based on what I've seen, it looks like it's just going to be a straight Luther thing. He's doing that thing that always works, where he's starting a universe with a movie with about 100 fucking characters in it.
00:18:03
Speaker
That always works, doesn't it? That has a good track record. Doesn't it, Batman vs. Superman? Movie I love, but also understand its faults? Come on, guys. I mean, this movie. Like, look at this movie. The list I named off, and I was looking at the cast list for...
00:18:19
Speaker
ah for ah the new Superman film, and it it's fucking stacked. It's fucking stacked. It's such a good cast. Like, I can't even believe they got all the people they got for that cast.
00:18:31
Speaker
Like, Nathan Fillion as Guy Gardner with the fucking Guy Gardner haircut? Get the fuck out of here. It's like they don't want me to look at the screen. It's like they want me to be repulsed. I don't understand it.
00:18:45
Speaker
They put, like, a prosthetic on his nose just to make him even look more disgusting. ah Come on. And then you got the the guy from Barry as Metamorpho. ah You got the guy from X-Men First Class as Mr. Terrific.
00:18:58
Speaker
Like, i'm i i am i am I am excited for the new Superman movie, if I may say. i am the opposite of excited because I think i think it's going to really suck.
00:19:10
Speaker
yeah You and I had this conversation earlier over text. Like, you're not excited about it at all. I am. No. I'm actually optimistic because I think Gunn gets what makes Superman tick, unlike every other director of a Superman movie up to this point, except for maybe Richard Donner.
00:19:29
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you, Steven, I'm not even sure I know what makes Superman tick because honestly, i don't give a fuck about no Superman. I don't care. I don't like Superman. I've never liked Superman. Never had any interest. The only thing, the only Superman that I like is Man of Steel.
00:19:44
Speaker
That's the only Superman thing that I enjoy. I've tried to read the comics. I've watched the other movies. Now, I do like, I do like the first two Donner movies, but I, I could take them or leave them. I could take them or leave them is what I'm saying. Yeah.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah. No, the first Superman is is a is a wonder. it's It's like the the initial comic book movie. It's the one that that basically told us comic book movies could be viable.
00:20:08
Speaker
yeah um And then the second one intended to be filmed concurrently with the the first one. ah The Salkins and Richard Donner got into a bit of a thing.
00:20:22
Speaker
And basically he got kicked off the movie. They brought in Richard Lester to basically be... ah so as ah As a patsy, as a scab, essentially, to
Superman's Origins vs. Snyder's Imagery
00:20:31
Speaker
finish the movie. And then he directed Superman 3, which is awful. The only thing worse than Superman 3, Tucker, is Superman 4, The Quest for Peace.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yes. God, that movie sucks ass. And not in a fun way. Not in a fun way. Canon was running out of money and they're like, man, we gotta do something. Doesn't matter if it's good or not, but we gotta fucking do something. that Damn!
00:20:55
Speaker
Chris Corrie won't come back unless we give him script approval, so we gotta have this whole anti-nuclear weapons thing going on in there. oh man. And we gotta have dr John Cryer, you know, for kids.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, my God. it It's is rough. It's real rough. Garbage. um And then, um I mean, we will talk about Superman Returns one of these days. Which I will agree with you, Steven, that even though even though I would say it's technically a sequel to at least the first two Donner Superman movies, um it's also kind of a legacy sequel slash reboot at the same time. So, like, I think it counts for our format for sure.
00:21:35
Speaker
None of the events of that movie... are oh None of the events of the first two movies are even alluded to in that film at all. It really is just aesthetically a sequel more than it is objectively a sequel.
00:21:48
Speaker
So I feel like counts. yeah Unfortunately, we already have something on the schedule for when the Supergirl movie comes out. ah which is the Helen Slater 1984 Supergirl movie. Oh, good. kate menway Dude, I can't wait to watch that with you because I loved that when I was a kid. I watched that movie constantly. I've never seen that.
00:22:06
Speaker
I got older and I watched it and it's utter dog shit. Yeah, no, that's the impression that I It's fucking bad. I don't know why I liked it when I was a kid, but man, I must have a crush on Homegirl or something. I must have been in. The only connection between those is the guy who plays Jimmy Olsen.
00:22:22
Speaker
He's the only thread that connects those movies. Can I tell you what Zack Snyder thinks of Jimmy Olsen? Oh, God. No, we know what Zack Snyder thinks of Jimmy Olsen. Captain vs. Superman, one of the first scenes.
00:22:35
Speaker
Okay. Hi, I'm Jimmy Olsen. Okay. Two seconds later, two to the head. Bye, Jimmy Olsen. Shot to the fucking head. And that, I think, is part of my issue with this movie.
00:22:49
Speaker
is the fact that Snyder doesn't seem to get Superman. Like, therere fundamentally, Superman is a beacon of hope.
00:23:02
Speaker
Like, my Letterboxd review for this is the quote, on my world, it means hope. as Talking about the S symbol yeah on his chest. On my world, it means hope. And then, underneath that, the another hour and a half of the most hopeless imagery ever committed to a superhero film.
00:23:19
Speaker
Like, it's just, like, Snyder doesn't understand hope. Like, he doesn't understand what Superman is supposed to be. Superman is an aspirational figure.
00:23:31
Speaker
He's a Christ figure. And while Snyder does lean heavily on the Christian imagery, which we will get to, trust me, we're going to take a stop in Stephen's Christianity Corner on this episode. Yeah. um While he does lean heavily into that imagery, I don't think he understands I don't think he understands it.
00:23:49
Speaker
I think he's just using it as a way to kind of like draw in a certain crowd without actually understanding what it means. Cause there's no, there's no altruism in this Superman.
00:24:03
Speaker
There's no, there's there's no connecting with humanity in this Superman. It's all, he's very detached. Well, i think that's I think that's kind of the point. And I think um when you say Zack Snyder doesn't understand what Superman's all about, I would argue that it's not so much that he doesn't understand it. It's it's kind of like Watchmen.
00:24:27
Speaker
Like, Zack Snyder... Watchmen. He was originally going to do the original ending, but it just... He was like, it doesn't... I don't know. For for this adaptation, that's not really what we're trying to do.
00:24:42
Speaker
And i think I think with Man of Steel, it's kind of the same thing. He gets it, but I think Superman is detached... for a reason. That's the whole point is that he's trying to be human. He wants to be part of humanity and and and part of what he has to do is he has to save it to become part of it and he struggles with that the entire the whole span of the DCEU.
00:25:12
Speaker
That's what he's doing. In Batman v Superman, that's what he's doing. In Justice League, if they gave him a fucking chance, that's what he would do. He's trying to connect with humanity. He wants to be human. He's trying to prove to people that he is.
00:25:25
Speaker
Okay. All right. Yep. Okay. Steven's gone.
00:25:33
Speaker
Five minutes later. And take two. Hey. And we're back. Um... but i mean i I mean, see our Watchmen episode from my thoughts on Snyder's take on Watchmen. I feel like he – and that's another one where I feel like he fundamentally misunderstands the point of what Alan Moore is getting at. The point is not that these guys look cool. And Snyder makes them look hella fucking cool. Very cool, yeah. They're not supposed to be cool. They're supposed to be sad, pathetic losers.
00:26:02
Speaker
That's the point. Mm-hmm. Yes, and indeed. so like he's So I guess, you know to your point, yes, he is not he's one who is willing to make changes to fit his vision, but his vision doesn't necessarily make for a good adaptation.
00:26:20
Speaker
i I will agree with that to a certain extent, but I also think that um adaptation is can be a lot of things.
00:26:31
Speaker
I agree. Just like... with, with, for, with man of steel, for example, I do agree that this is, this is a different Superman. Like this isn't the Superman that we've seen, but also as someone who, as I mentioned before, gives zero fucks about Superman, that doesn't bother me at all. And I think that's maybe why I enjoy this film, because,
00:26:55
Speaker
Sure. As much as I do, because I don't give any fucks about Superman. i don't I don't really care about whether he's represented correctly or not. I just, I like the Superman in this movie.
00:27:05
Speaker
I like the way, I like the character in this movie, and I like the way that it's presented, and I like his struggle. I like it. like it a lot. But that is counterintuitive to typical struggle that Superman tends to face, which I think is the problem. um Because superman is...
00:27:25
Speaker
born is the creation of two Jewish immigrants. Um, he, his story is in effect, the immigrant story, the story of, of, of,
00:27:37
Speaker
the jewish diaspora for all intents and purposes superman's a jew um which makes the christian imagery in this movie kind of hilarious but we'll get it i'm gonna keep putting that ball down the road we'll get we'll get to the oh we have to we go have to i mean he's 33 in this movie steven he's 30 fucking three don't think i didn't notice tucker they make they they put a button on it. yeah I'm getting sidetracked. No, no, no, no, no. Wait until we get to that corner. I have so much to say, too. we we've got We're going to be visiting a couple corners around the room. Yes.
00:28:12
Speaker
But the
00:28:15
Speaker
the idea is that Superman is kind of the the perfected Jew, for all intents and purposes, right? He is
00:28:27
Speaker
the notion that of Jewish exceptionalism. You all right? Yeah. Yep. Ooh. He is the personified exemplar of of Jewish exceptionalism. um He's an aspirational figure for his creators.
00:28:40
Speaker
the you know the so you know One of the creators is a ah ah a child who saw his father shot, killed as a child. And so he creates like a character that bullets can bounce off his chest.
00:28:53
Speaker
this is These are not accidents, right? Superman was not formed in a vacuum. um there's there's There's a story behind it, but The notion is that he is, as as he says at the end of the movie, as American as it comes.
00:29:06
Speaker
He is an exemplar of truth and justice and the American way. And I don't feel like Snyder gets to the core of that idea here. I think he's very concerned with the American way.
00:29:22
Speaker
Truth and justice, significantly less so. um I watched an a video. I'm sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, in that that shows up even more in Batman vs. Superman.
00:29:34
Speaker
He's even more aloof. He's even more distant. and and And then you throw Batman in there, and this Batman, which, again, I'm all for it, and i'm more I give more of a shit about Batman, so I understand that Snyder's Batman is not the best representation of that character, but I still...
00:29:54
Speaker
I still love it because it it it is different and I still like it. And I like that Batman in that film, like he starts out branding people. And in the ah ultimate cut, you see how that affects people.
00:30:07
Speaker
Like there's a woman with her child. He brands this dude. Anybody that gets branded by that dies in jail. They kill him in jail. The guards don't care. And.
00:30:18
Speaker
Bruce Wayne is coming out of like somewhere and it's the guy who he branded. It's his girlfriend and child. And she's like, he was a fucking father too, dude.
00:30:31
Speaker
And Batman has kind of a come to Jesus moment. And that's why at the end of Batman versus Superman. um Yes. Which is why at the end of Batman versus Superman, he doesn't brand Lex Luthor.
00:30:42
Speaker
He punches the fucking wall behind him with the brand and vanishes. Like he's kind of, he's kind of understood that. And that's something I like about both Man of Steel and Batman versus Superman. That's what we call growth.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yes, yes. Well, and what I like about both those films is what they do is throughout the entire movie, they show you how shitty people can be, how shitty humanity as a whole can be, ah how shitty people can be individually and how shitty we can be as a species.
00:31:12
Speaker
But at the end, it's always like, but there's always fucking hope. There's always hope. There's always good people. You're always going to find good people. This all sucks. But there's always going to be good people. Find the helpers. Find the people helping. You know mean? Unfortunately, none of the hopeful characters are the heroes of these movies.
00:31:32
Speaker
I know. know. And that right that is the infuriate. Because here's the thing that DC as a as a company does so much better than Marvel. And i was I was a DC boy born and raised.
00:31:43
Speaker
My, the, the barbershop that I went to as a kid stocked exclusively DC comics. And so when I went to the barbershop, when I was a kid, after I got my haircut, when my dad was getting his haircut, I would sit down and I would read like the Giffen Demet, uh, Demetius run on justice league.
00:31:58
Speaker
I would read like the old John Byrne supermans. Like I would just pour through those love DC always have, um, their continuity got very confusing for a while. So I jumped ship to Marvel cause they were a lot easier to understand.
00:32:10
Speaker
Um, yeah, but yeah, DC is the dcs the icons. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. um The modern myths, if you will.
00:32:22
Speaker
Grant Morrison's run on Justice League. going to they They are probably my favorite comic book creator of the modern era. The more I engage with their work, the more I really love what they're doing.
00:32:33
Speaker
More even than Alan Moore, who has been... a favorite of mine perennially. um But Morrison took those characters and essentially like he put them on the moon in a watchtower, like Mount Olympus, like they, are the superheroes and, and they wrote a book even about superheroes as our modern mythology.
00:32:53
Speaker
And so like Superman is Zeus. ah Batman is Hades. Aquaman obviously is Poseidon. Like he, he attaches these analogs, these, to these de deity analogs to all the the members of the Justice League and essentially creates his own pantheon of superheroes, which is, keep, they, i I apologize for misgendering Grant Morrison. They put these characters in, and so they are the they are the myths. They are the icons. They're the ones we look up to. They are the bastions of hope.
00:33:26
Speaker
Snyder doesn't have Hope. His Superman is a hopeless endeavor. Like I'm watching this and Superman is, oh, you know, she goes, why what's with low senses? What's with the S? And he goes, ah it's not an S. And she goes, it it looks pretty much like an S. He goes, no, in my world, it means hope.
00:33:42
Speaker
And then what follows is an hour and a half of just the most hopeless imagery ever committed to a superhero movie. Like it's, it's cities being decimated in the wake of these two gods, just battling it out without any care for the people that they are crushing in their wake.
00:33:57
Speaker
Like it's, it's so fucking the hopeless that I, and, and yet at the end of the movie, we're supposed to see Superman as this, like this messianic figure, but nothing in the movie outside of the obvious Christ imagery that Snyder's going, ah, really leads us there. Like he's trying to point us in that direction, but none of the subtext gets us to that point.
00:34:20
Speaker
And that's what Superman is supposed to be. He is quote unquote, the best of us. That's the point of Superman. And the loneliness and isolation that he feels is as a result of that elevated status that humanity gives him. But this is a humanity that, like Batman, hates and fears him.
00:34:38
Speaker
So again, he's not the hopeful figure that he needs to be to make the what what he's trying to do in this film ring true. Well, and I think I agree with everything that you've said. But as I've said before, like I said, I don't give a shit about Superman.
00:34:53
Speaker
i know. And I really... I am really also into contrast. I'm really into, um you know, not doing the thing that is expected. And I think that this film kind of,
00:35:09
Speaker
does that and i cry steven i cry during man of steel i cry number one when pa kent dies it's that look that he gives him i don't fucking cry about that at all but we'll get to that because you don't like kevin not only because i don't like kevin costner but that is a big part of it let's be real but no i he reminds me kind of of like of dexter's dad you know where he's like, you can do this, but don't let anybody know. And he dies like trying to keep his secret.
00:35:41
Speaker
And just that look that he gives him, because Clark is about to zip in there and grab him, and he just says... Just gives him a look, puts his hand up, and I sob every time as it just takes him.
00:35:53
Speaker
I also sob incessantly when he breaks Zod's neck because Henry Cavill, I think, really, really sells the turmoil, the the what Superman is going through when he makes the decision to do that.
00:36:08
Speaker
And it's the decision that... that's That's really a Batman decision in the comics to where, like, in in The Dark Knight Returns, When he snaps Joker's neck, it that's basically that.
00:36:20
Speaker
And the whole thing is like... snaps his own neck. that That's the difference. Yes, he does. I know. That man snaps just short. But you've got this question of, so I let this motherfucker live and he just keeps murdering thousands and thousands of people or I kill him now and it stops.
00:36:40
Speaker
And that's always a very interesting question I like, or an interesting problem that that characters in these kind of movies have. And I really like the way that it was handled in this one. And I understand why that you don't like it for the reasons that you've you've mentioned.
00:36:55
Speaker
But for me, like this, I kind of, I don't know. I really like, I like the struggle. i I like his struggle in this. I feel like Snyder just equates heroism with badassery.
00:37:08
Speaker
And that's not what heroism is like the the idea is to be a hero is to make the tough decision without a loss of life it's why these characters like the joker and it's why despite the problems that i have with frank miller as a person and uh in his portrayal of batman in those comics and it gets progressively worse the more it gets so much worse yeah it's so much worse like for a while um I think it was fair to say that, and and maybe even it still is, the Dark Knight Returns may be the quintessential Batman story in comics. Like, it's... yeah Don't read the sequel.
00:37:47
Speaker
Don't do it. Don't read either of them. He made another one. do Oh, fuck. He made another one. and The Dark Knight continues to return. And i read I read Strikes Back, and it just, it soured me. It actually made going back to Returns hurt more.
00:38:05
Speaker
um laa yeah Like it it's it's one of those sequels that makes the ones that preceded it feel even worse as a result. Like Rise of Skywalker. Like I hated Force Awakens more after watching Rise of Skywalker.
00:38:18
Speaker
Like that's how much that one hurt. well Stephen, if I may um just recommend if you haven't seen it yet, the two part DC animated universe version of The Dark Knight Returns with Peter Weller as Batman. I was going to say, you love anything you are.
00:38:35
Speaker
So gosh, well, and I mean, that's what drew me in Also, I've read the dark night returns and I quite enjoy it. And so both both of those things got me there.
00:38:46
Speaker
It's a two parter and it's, it's one of, it's their best one-to-one adaptation. Now, um, what's the, what's the one where Joker shoots Barbara Gordon?
00:38:57
Speaker
The killing joke. Yes. That one would be right up there with, if it, it if it didn't have the wraparound where Bruce and Barbara are fucking the whole time.
Zack Snyder's Filmmaking Style
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah, i don't like that. um I like... Neither. Bruce Timm, what are you doing?
00:39:09
Speaker
Well, I know what he's doing. I've seen his drawings outside of Batman Animated Series. Bruce Timm's a Wait for very small women. Man, that's call... Well, just small.
00:39:20
Speaker
Just small. Small women. not Not young. We're done. Just small. We're done. Let's move on. We're moving on. Just small. Fucking stop.
00:39:32
Speaker
The... I don't know. Because, because again, I... And again, despite, as I was trying to say, despite my problems with the way that Dark Knight, with Frank Miller's portrayal of Batman, at least at that point, he had the restraint enough to know that a hero stops before delivering the killing blow.
00:39:51
Speaker
And for Snyder, that's never the case. know He's like, I know in the comics, Batman doesn't use guns, but my Batman is going to use guns and he's going to fucking shoot people in the face because that's what that's what badass heroes do.
00:40:03
Speaker
And I'm like, no No, that's not what these badass heroes do. You're thinking of the Punisher is who you're thinking of. And I don't think anyone would classify him a hero. He's an antihero at best.
00:40:14
Speaker
But like, let's not fucking confuse the issue. Like Superman has never been that. Like that. And that's the point of Superman. He finds a way without the killing.
00:40:25
Speaker
He finds a way without having to resort to that. Yeah. And that's what makes him a hero. That's what makes him a beacon of hope. To see him resorting to that, I understand what Snyder is trying to do. I get it.
00:40:37
Speaker
What I'm saying is it's a fundamental misstep when you're adapting Superman. You can make some ah make up some other character and have him do that, but not Superman.
00:40:48
Speaker
there's ah There's an incredible comic, and it came out 2001. two thousand and one I remember reading it my senior year of high school because but my my bumm my buddy Justin Knapp, who I may or may not have invoked on this podcast before.
00:41:00
Speaker
um He is the first person to ever get a million edits on Wikipedia. I know that guy. He's a boy. I have known that guy since I was in kindergarten. You love that He's one of my oldest friends. I do.
00:41:11
Speaker
I love the man to death. He is such a good dude. he ah He loaned me this comic, and I remember reading it in my study hooks. I did all my homework the night before, bitches. And it's called, it's written by ah joe Kelly, I believe. Yes, Joe Kelly, art by Doug Manke, who, no love Doug Manke's art.
00:41:30
Speaker
It's Action Comic 775. It's called What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way. And it's coming in the wake of these comics like The Authority, ah where Warren Ellis and Mark Millar, two guys who you should probably not do a lot of research into if you you know want to respect their work.
00:41:50
Speaker
And if you don't, then by all means, read up. They're horrible people. um they ah They were like, these these basically these superheroes were like, we're super powered. We can do what we want.
00:42:01
Speaker
So the world better step in line with what we want or we're going to fuck you up. And so it's like, how does Superman relate in against these kinds of characters. And so Joe Kelly essentially creates an authority-esque analog and Superman has to fight them and the world is turning against Superman and turning toward these characters.
00:42:19
Speaker
And it is this whole issue. And I highly recommend if you can find it, read it. It's an incredible read, but it essentially is asking the question, what's the point of Superman?
00:42:31
Speaker
If you've got these guys who are willing to kill, who are willing to do the shit Superman won't do, He's a big blue boy scout. What's the fucking point? Why does the world need ah a character like this when we've got these badasses over here?
00:42:43
Speaker
And it articulates so incredibly well why Superman is important as a character. And again... I find Superman a difficult character to relate to at the best of times. But when he is written well, like he is here, like he's written in Grant Morrison's and Frank Quitely's All-Star Superman.
00:43:01
Speaker
And I would say those are the two best Superman stories that I've ever read are What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and American Way and All-Star Superman. Those stories do such a good job at articulating and illuminating the importance of the character and nothing made me more excited than when James Gunn said, Hey, i am using all-star Superman as a big source of inspiration for my upcoming Superman movie. Because it is, it it's such an incredible story. And i'm I'm planning on reading it before I, before I go see the new movie, it's 12 issues. I've got access to the DC universe app. I'm going to do it. um
00:43:38
Speaker
Like it's such an incredible um articulation of what makes Superman essential as a hero. And Zack Snyder clearly never read either of those books, is what I'm Apparently.
00:43:50
Speaker
ah You know, i once again, i agree with everything that you said to the point that I trust your judgment on these things because I have not um've not read any of the stuff that you've mentioned. You should. It's really good. and
00:44:04
Speaker
But I think... um What we got with the Snyderverse, especially when it comes to Batman and Superman, is we didn't get the Batman or Superman that we wanted, to quote the the Nolan movies.
00:44:21
Speaker
We got the Batman and Superman we deserved. Because I think these films really do kind of, whether it shits all over the original point of the character, i think it's kind of it's It's of the times. Like, it is a modern sort of retelling of it. And do do I agree that you could have stayed true to the character and been just as modern with it?
00:44:49
Speaker
Yes, you could have. But I also think, for me at least, I think this... It it really works for me. um And something... um
00:45:00
Speaker
I lost my train of thought. But yeah, it works for me. And i'm I'm glad it does. I, you know, I wish I, there's a part of me that wishes I weren't so precious about these things sometimes. And here's the thing. I'm not as precious as I know some people are about these. Yeah.
00:45:13
Speaker
But again, as someone who kind of grew up on this shit, like it, and you know, these are, and if, and if these are in fact the stories of our modern mythology, then it matters the kind of heroes that we're attaching ourselves to.
00:45:28
Speaker
it matters It matters the kind of heroes that we're seeing represented. And should they not be aspirational figures? Like Marvel always did the human thing. Like Spider-Man was, a you know, he was a guy with money troubles.
00:45:42
Speaker
Like um yeah Iron Man was an alcoholic. Like they struggled with the real human issues. Whereas DC, they were always the icons. They were always fighting these epic, larger than life battles against these, you know, colorful and then just increasingly ridiculous foes.
00:45:58
Speaker
it there's, there's a dichotomy and you can pick your flavor. Like not everyone has to like the same thing. DC never was able to find its footing with the comic book thing. I think I mentioned in the first half or the first part of the episode, um, Warner brothers would always try to get the guy who had made the last big comic book thing after, after Schumacher, uh, and Batman and Robin kind of fell apart.
00:46:25
Speaker
Uh, the bed. Yeah. Yeah. More or less. Um, They were like, okay, well, let's, you know, Christopher Nolan did the Batman thing. He had never done a comic book thing, but we're like, okay, we need someone to take over after, with someone to do Superman. Hey, let's get the guy who did the X-Men movies.
00:46:42
Speaker
ah People like the X-Men movies. Let's see what he wants to do. And what he wanted to do was just a pastiche of the Donner films. Not really even a sequel to the Donner films, just a pastiche of the Donner films. um And so we get ah Superman Returns and people are like, not this.
00:46:58
Speaker
Because that one comes out again, like ah right around the time of, you know, Spider-Man two. And we're kind of 2005 or something, right? We're pushing these things into new directions. Yeah. Something like that. We're pushing these things into new directions. We're doing different things with them.
00:47:12
Speaker
And so ah the throwback pastiche thing just doesn't vibe with what's going on. And so then we get, well, Zack Snyder does Watchmen in 300 and you guys like those. So what if he does Superman?
00:47:25
Speaker
And, That is moderately successful. I mean, he they give him the entire, like, they basically make him the Feige of the DC universe. The problem is he's riffing on, the the problem is twofold. One, he's riffing on what Nolan did successfully with the Dark Knight trilogy, which is dark and gritty and grounded.
00:47:47
Speaker
can't do a dark, gritty, grounded Superman. I mean, you can, but what you get is this, um which again, i feel, i've I've laid out my reasons for why i don't think that works. Mileage may vary around that. vice sure But here's the thing. And again, yeah ah we you were we were saying this off mic, like the and there are certain subsections of the internet that really loved what Snyder was doing with this but this kind of storytelling.
00:48:13
Speaker
And they weren't the people that grew up with DC. I would just like to insert here before you go any further. i like Zack Snyder as a filmmaker. i am in no way, shape, or form a Snyder bro, and I do not associate myself with those fucking disgusting people.
00:48:29
Speaker
I... I'm not a Snyder bro. I feel like Snyder is a serviceable filmmaker. He's certainly... an auteur but i feel like he leans more toward the vulgar auteur side of things he's got he's on his lane he's got his lane he's got a style he does what he does at this point he's just churning out netflix movies and i'm okay with that yeah i'm not i'm not interested really in those i feel like he's kind of just gotten on autopilot at this point i watched army of the dead and i thought it was fine it was yes fine okay um
00:49:01
Speaker
And they immediately made a prequel to that or something. like just ridiculous like Within a week, there was a prequel up. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? And then he does like The Rebel Moon, I think is what his new one is called. And then there's already a sequel to that. like Six months later, he's got a sequel to that out. And I'm just like... Yeah, that was... yeah I think that was planned as a franchise. yeah Well, and that's just it. like He's forcing these things into franchises.
00:49:23
Speaker
It's like he doesn't want us to cover his movies on this podcast, sir. um That's too bad. it It really is. i'm I'm sure we can figure out a way to cover Sucker Punch at some point. um um I know somebody who likes that movie.
00:49:37
Speaker
I know someone who took her her very young nephews to see that movie. wow this And that is my partner. Hey! It's the Ants Weekend with the kids. I know. Let's go see a superhero movie. Our good friend ah Caroline likes that one.
00:49:53
Speaker
Okay. Quite a bit. Okay. The only reason I've ever seen I had no interest. Even though I like Zack Snyder, I saw that trailer and i was like, I don't think that's for me. i I'm checking my shelf right now because I'm pretty sure we own that one.
00:50:10
Speaker
i it's like It's like most Zack Snyder films, not a lot of stumped substance, but a lot of fucking style. And and that that most of the time that works.
00:50:20
Speaker
Sometimes it doesn't. And I'm um very much a substance over style kind of person. Now, if you can add style to the substance, so much the better. But i' i I'm not, ah like Michael Bay, not my guy.
00:50:32
Speaker
I appreciate what he does. And again, he's got a style. good it. He's in very good at what he does. Better than most people making movies of his, like most of his disciples that came after him, better than they are for sure.
00:50:42
Speaker
But again, that's not my thing. Like that's not, whereas someone like o this come like Ryan Coogler, I watched Sinners for the second time this past weekend. I watched it too.
00:50:54
Speaker
That movie is a perfect blend of style and substance. Like it's a movie that has something to say and it it tells it very well with a lot of splash and a lot of style.
00:51:05
Speaker
And that's what I love about that. Whereas I think Snyder is and like Bay, style over substance kind of person. And again, there's a time and a place for that. It's just not ever going to be my go-to.
00:51:17
Speaker
I think with Zack Snyder... not disparaging him as a filmmaker. I'm disparaging him as a adapt as an adapter of Superman is what I'm doing. think that I think that you can see that Snyder wants to put substance in his film but in his films, but I think the style just wins over.
00:51:35
Speaker
Right. Most of the time, you see you see the hints of it. like you'll see something You'll be like, oh, that's kind of wow like oh that's that's ah You had to think about that one for a second, and the next second it's just slow-mo and things blowing up.
00:51:47
Speaker
Also, some people just aren't... And that's fine. And that's that's fine that's okay. We still love those people. Exactly. I'm not going to go into a Zack Snyder movie expecting like you know deeply resonant filmmaking. I'm not going into a Snyder movie expecting the next Academy Award winning film.
00:52:07
Speaker
um because that's I don't think that's what I'm going to get out of Zack Snyder. I would love to be proven wrong. Zack Snyder proved me wrong. but I don't think that's what I'm getting. Now, something that I've learned, Stephen, because I don't know if you know this, but after our your internet shit the bed last night, um spoilers, listeners, Stephen's internet shit the bed last night, so the first 20 minutes this podcast we recorded last night, and then we're here tonight doing the rest of it. It's closer half an hour, but yeah. um And it was about 10 o'clock last night,
00:52:36
Speaker
When it shit out. And I was like. Alright Steven. we're to do this tomorrow. And I'm going to go watch Justice League. yeah and so watch And you watched the Snyder Cut. Am I right? I watched a four hour movie at 10 o'clock at night. And I watched the motherfucker all the way through. What the fuck is wrong with you son? I'll tell you. those three That's the trilogy right there. All of the other movies. Like Wonder Woman and Aquaman. Shazam. All that shit.
00:53:00
Speaker
Just little spin off side movies. The trilogy. The narrative. is Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Justice League. That is one narrative.
00:53:12
Speaker
Everything else is just backstory. And I tell you you watch those three movies very close together. i actually watched Man of Steel and Batman v Superman backto back to back. I know. And watching all three of those movies in one day, which is about nine and a half hours of
DC vs. Marvel: Thematic and Stylistic Choices
00:53:28
Speaker
cinema. of i Again, it's Zack Snyder. Are we really willing to call it cinema?
00:53:33
Speaker
I think in a way it is. I think in a way it is. ah Not traditionally, but... um ah Watching the three of those in one day really, really made me see the through lines there. There's stuff I didn't notice before that make those three films just kind of one cohesive narrative.
00:53:52
Speaker
and To the point to where like in Batman v Superman, when Superman dies and they're at the funeral in Smallville, You see the kid he rest the bully he rescued from the bus and Man of Steel is at his funeral.
00:54:05
Speaker
The preacher he talked to and Man of Steel presides over his funeral. Like in all those three movies are one narrative. And it is kind of it's kind of impressive to watch if you watch all three of them, because I had seen all three of them in the past, but like several years removed.
00:54:21
Speaker
Sure. I still enjoyed them. But I appreciate them a lot more as a trilogy. Now that I have... so The thing is, Steven, like, doing this podcast, you'd think it would make me like Man of Steel less?
00:54:34
Speaker
Actually? It's made me appreciate all three of those films more. We all lived through our The Flash episode together. We know it's not possible for you to hate on these movies. I watched that today, too, Steven, and I loved it.
00:54:49
Speaker
I'm glad you did. I'm glad someone did, because God, it was not me. I'm also glad that Ezra Miller has not been in the news lately about some mean, bad thing that they have done.
00:55:01
Speaker
And it makes me hope. It's their of mean, bad things. Let's be clear. It makes me hope that they're having a redemption arc, because gosh, I enjoy them in the DCEU.
00:55:13
Speaker
I really, really like Ezra Miller's Flash quite a bit because he's kind I'm sorry, they... Well, the character is he. So if I flip-flop in between them, it's because of that.
00:55:26
Speaker
But the Flash in the DCEU movies is... He's the comic relief without being like too Marvel about it and that's something else I enjoy about the Snyderverse movies is that they are so much not...
00:55:44
Speaker
Marvel movies. And I loved Marvel, even then and now, I love Marvel movies. There there are very few that I don't like. It was a pointed correction. It's a nice contrast, is what I'm saying. It is a nice contrast.
00:55:57
Speaker
When you're like, oh, I want to watch a ah a superhero movie, but I don't really want to watch... has Nice as in I enjoy it. It's nice. Like nice.
00:56:09
Speaker
Not like, oh, that's kind and gentle. No, I mean like nice. You like Borat nice. Kind of nice. that Nice. Yes, like that kind of nice.
00:56:20
Speaker
A moat. There's no such thing as a ah good shot. Sorry, a nice shot. There's no such thing as a nice shot. Because Land of the Dead. Sure.
00:56:32
Speaker
Because no shots are nice because you're hurting people. okay That was that thing. Yeah. Anyway. I mean, like, Marvel found success in, like, embracing the humor. And so, like, Snyder seemed to be like, okay, great.
00:56:48
Speaker
Then I'll do the opposite and I will put any humor in any of my There's jokes. Fuck you, there's jokes. There are jokes in these movies. There are quotes and letters. You gotta to have, like, Superman's microscopic vision to see them. Because...
00:57:02
Speaker
almost kind of I almost kind of have to... I almost want to watch the Joss Whedon version of Justice League just to see how just like how much he tries to make it a Marvel movie.
00:57:14
Speaker
Because I remember seeing that and just being like, no. No. and i know Here's the thing. I feel like... Joss Whedon, if I may, before you say this, Joss Whedon is Zack Snyder to DCEU movies.
00:57:30
Speaker
He doesn't fucking get it Joss Whedon doesn't s sweetden him does it fucking get it. agree. Exactly. He does not get it. He does not understand. Here's the thing. Of Zack's movies. i i would call.
00:57:46
Speaker
um So the 2017 cut of Justice League. I don't call it the Whedon cut. I call it the studio cut. Because Whedon was a hired gun. and again. i This is going to sound like I'm defending Joss Whedon.
00:57:58
Speaker
Fuck Joss Whedon first of all. It is the stated opinion of this podcast that fuck Joss Whedon. But second of all, like he was a hired gun brought in to basically marvelize the movie.
00:58:09
Speaker
They had done the same thing with the Suicide Squad earlier the previous year. like they tried they they They got a company that makes trailers to cut their movie so that it could try to be more like Guardians of the Galaxy.
00:58:24
Speaker
ah down to using like a classic rock song as the trailer and like trying to juice up the soundtrack with movies like that. They tried to make that movie into something that it was never intended to be, and it didn't fucking work.
00:58:36
Speaker
And that's what Whedon essentially did with Justice League. He was brought in to make it something it was never intended to be, and that's why it fucking doesn't work. Snyder at least had a unified vision, which is why the Snyder Cut is the better version of Justice League.
00:58:50
Speaker
I just don't want to sit through a four-hour slog of a movie. but It's not a slog, though. I'll tell you, I kept trying to be bored in all three of these films, because Man of Steel, two and a half hours. Ultimate Cut, Batman v Superman, three hours. is Man of Steel. I got so fucking bored.
00:59:04
Speaker
Really? Yes! I don't get bored with any of Even the four hours, even last night, I was trying to be like, well, I'll get bored and and stop it in between one of the parts, because the Snyder Cut is in like seven parts. Because yeah originally they were going to do it as... this time i watch yeah And last night I was like, well, it's going to be 2.30 before this is over. I should probably get to bed before then.
00:59:26
Speaker
So as soon as I get bored, I'll turn it off and pick it up tomorrow. Did not get bored. I was like, no, I can't turn this off because I want to keep going. i want to keep going. Good thing you didn't have to get up to get your kid on the bus, man. I know, ah right? um But yeah, I know. I just like I found so many times when I was just like, I don't care about any of this. Like and it weirdly, it was the action scene.
00:59:50
Speaker
Like, I just, like, I don't care about this at all. That I kind of agree with. um i do... I don't get bored in Man of Steel, but it is the action scenes.
01:00:04
Speaker
They they go on and on and on. I think there's a reason for that. and and I get it now with Batman v Superman. It's literally it's it's two movies.
01:00:15
Speaker
You have the first half, which is the build up and the the political part, which I think is so interesting because like Marvel touched on that for a tiny little second in age or in Civil War.
01:00:29
Speaker
But all of like Batman v Superman and a third of Man of Steel is about that. Well, a lot of a lot of the criticism of this movie bleeds into Batman v Superman, like the the complete destruction of Metropolis amid like, you know, ah these two, you know, all powerful gods punching the shit out of each other. A lot of the political shit in Batman v Superman is a direct result of that criticism because this comes out.
01:01:00
Speaker
2013 and then you get age of you get Avengers the year before where they completely demolished New York City. and think Age of Ultron is, if I'm not mistaken, 2015. Batman v Superman 2016.
01:01:15
Speaker
Civil War, I think 2017. seventeen So you get all these things kind of in very rapid succession. But the destruction of 2013, 2012, and even 2015...
01:01:25
Speaker
and even twenty fifteen bleeds into you know the fallout from those which is batman v superman which you know they have to mention that they've cleared out the whole city that they've evacuated the city before superman and batman and doomsday and wonder woman just tear it the fuck up and then in anderson cooper mentions that actually of course of course we love him we love anderson cooper we love that vanderbilt son of a bitch um oh that's silver fox whoo but a man
01:01:56
Speaker
I remember in middle school, he was on Channel One, which was like the the like the school news channel, was like and we'd watch it in Homeroom every day, and Anderson Cooper and Lisa Ling, who also went on to become like ah like ah a journalist. like They all got their start on Channel One. I remember that as a kid.
01:02:14
Speaker
Anyway, neither here nor there. um but you know And then in in Civil War, you get the Sokovia Accords superheroing is now illegal because y'all just turn shit up like well um because well and they break it up it's what they bring up in man of steel and what they continue in batman v superman it's like yes like you you you are all powerful and for now you seem loyal you're loyal to us For now.
01:02:42
Speaker
But who the fuck knows what could happen? Who the fuck knows what could happen? And the thing I really appreciate about the first half of the ultimate cut of Batman v Superman is it's all it's it's like a South Park episode where like you see both sides and you're like, I kind of don't know.
01:03:00
Speaker
Like I kind of I see what they're saying and I see what they're saying and I don't really know where I land. And I really appreciate it. I appreciate a movie that that asks a shit ton of questions and never answers them.
01:03:16
Speaker
i appreciate ambiguity, but i I at least want the filmmaker to have an idea of what they're trying to say. Hmm? You know, because because again, there are a lot of people on the wrong corners of the internet, Tucker, who are, quote, just asking questions.
01:03:31
Speaker
ah And at some point... through everything At some point, answers need to be provided and listened to and followed. ah you know And and you know this is a weirdly political episode for us. um I guess that's what happens when you start talking Snyder Bros. um These are weirdly political movies.
01:03:51
Speaker
and that and And again, that that's another kind of a thing. like you can I think you can have those political conversations, but...
01:04:01
Speaker
like i know And one of the problems I have with the the the Frank Miller Batman, which is, I think, the Batman that Snyder most resonates with, is that he's, at the heart, a fascist. um yeah Well, I mean Batman in general.
01:04:15
Speaker
Even like I was watching The Flash today and at the beginning when The Flash saves all the babies at the hospital and Batman's at the bridge getting Falcone's kid right yeah and and Wonder Woman comes and boy, like i don't even care if she shows up for no reason. Just hit that theme song.
01:04:33
Speaker
Hit that button. Hit it. Let's go. Anytime. Just bring her in just so we can hear the theme song. don't give a fuck. Tucker getting jeezed over here. That's what it's the every time. Like, are what are they? Is the theme? Is it the theme song yet?
01:04:47
Speaker
Okay, good. Fantastic. So she's got Falcone's kid with the lasso of truth, but Batman's arm is in it too. And Batman is talking about how he could end poverty and crime with all of his money, but he wants to play dress up and beat people up instead.
01:05:04
Speaker
Mm hmm. like Batman gets real with it, and like he's very embarrassed afterwards. like Batman drops some knowledge about who he is as a person. like and He's a fucked up individual no who just wants to beat the piss out of people.
01:05:21
Speaker
Nolan gets into that too with The Dark Knight. He sets up a fucking surveillance state. With that surveillance shit, yeah, it's like, Batman, that's a door you don't want to fucking... And Alfred even says, he's like, that's a door you don't to open, homie.
01:05:32
Speaker
Exactly. You don't want to do that shit. Right. mean, Morgan Freeman's like, this is it. like After this, I'm done. like This is the last thing I do for you, because this is a bridge too far. You you are fucking blind.
01:05:44
Speaker
I'm just going to do it once, Red. I'm just going to do it once. Don't worry. God. I mean, Red. I mean... i Fox. Lucius Fox.
01:05:55
Speaker
Why do we call you Red? Is it because you're Irish?
01:06:00
Speaker
A bag of reefer, if that's your thing.
01:06:06
Speaker
Me and Bruce Wayne. get busy dying. You remember the name of the place.
01:06:18
Speaker
Can we just get a remake of Shawshank, but it's Patrick Bateman as, or Patrick Bateman. I mean, yeah, essentially. Christian Bale as Batman as Andy Dufresne. Or even better, Pete Holmes as Batman as Andy Dufresne. Can we just get that, please?
01:06:34
Speaker
I'd pay good money. And Morgan Freeman's there, too. And well Billy Sadler's there. Everybody's there. Tom Hardy's Bane as the warden.
01:06:44
Speaker
He's like, place your trust in the Lord. Your ass is mine.
01:06:54
Speaker
Can we get that movie? I'd pay so much money to see it. Oh my god. i think we've i think we've done it justice here on this podcast. Good yeah lord. that's going to be That's going to be fun to write up in the show notes. I'm not going to lie.
01:07:07
Speaker
An all Batman ah the villain remake of Shawshank Redemption.
01:07:15
Speaker
What a Batman remake of Shawshank might sound like. up but emilyie brown But Clancy Brown as Deathstroke... What's the... joeman men to leg juliia lao yeah eight later Well, no.
01:07:32
Speaker
Clancy Brown needs to play Lex Luthor. That's who Clancy Brown was in the DC animated universe. He's a lot of things when it comes to voice acting. He is a fucking legend.
01:07:43
Speaker
But you know what he's not? In Man of Steel, which is a fucking tragedy. That's way too bad. Who could he have been? could Should he have been Pa Kent? he I would have liked it a lot better. Here's the thing. I don't care for Kevin Costner.
01:07:57
Speaker
I never have. Never one of my guys. I understand why people enjoy him. i understand what he does. His thing is not my thing. I don't like Kevin Costner. used to. This is i I don't know if I've ever told this, said this on the podcast, but I used to celebrate on February 14th before I you know had girlfriends.
01:08:16
Speaker
um I used to celebrate. I hate Kevin Costner Day because if I can't celebrate love, I would celebrate hate. And I didn't like any actor more than I disliked Kevin Costner.
01:08:28
Speaker
So my friends and I would all get together and watch Kevin Costner movies on February 14th. It became and like it became something i was known for on campus. Like yeah I was the guy who hosted the Kevin Costner eight marathons every every Valentine's Day.
01:08:42
Speaker
I will say he does sum up one of the main questions that these films ask, at least the the main trilogy. In Batman v Superman, when Superman goes up on that icy mountain and sees a vision of his father...
01:09:00
Speaker
And Kevin Costner tells... Which father? he sees visions of both fathers in this movie. Well, he he goes up on the hill and he sees Kevin Costner. And Kevin Costner tells him about this story about when he was a kid and there were the rains were heavy and it started to flood and they worked all night...
01:09:19
Speaker
And even passed out a few times, you know, like digging trenches and and building like levee walls and stuff to keep the water out. And eventually they saved the farm.
01:09:31
Speaker
They saved the fucking farm because they worked so hard. But you know what? That water just went downriver and destroyed another farm.
01:09:41
Speaker
And I think that's kind of one of the main cruxes of all three of this films is like no matter how good you're doing. it's always going to result in something bad.
01:09:53
Speaker
Like something bad is going to come from it. No matter what your intentions are, how good you're trying to be, how much you're trying to save people, somebody is going to get fucked over.
01:10:05
Speaker
And that's at least the first two films, I think really, really embody that kind of as a theme. That's, and that's, that's kind of a, I'm Randy and notion.
01:10:17
Speaker
which I know we were talking about getting into that like 45 minutes ago. Let's because I don't see the connection. Really. I flirted with objectivism in high school, but they almost got me, Steven. They almost got I'm glad they didn't. I'm too good.
01:10:30
Speaker
I'm too good hearted for it. You know, I care about my fellow man too much. Well, and that's, that's, I think, you know, one of the, one of the critiques and and a lot of people have talked about this and I'll link to a couple of things in the show notes. If I remember um one of them is a, a,
01:10:46
Speaker
a video series by YouTuber Maggie Mae Fish, who I'm a big fan of I love her! right and I wish she hadn't moved to i wish she hadn't moved a Nebula because I am cannot afford that right now.
01:10:59
Speaker
i I have a very good friend who has allowed me access to his Nebula subscription. Bitch. um Yeah, I love her. She doesn't do shit on YouTube anymore. cause She's all on Nebula.
01:11:10
Speaker
Which, again, Nebula pays. I get it. I miss that get out for sure. Nebula pays better than YouTube does. She has a lot of really great takes on David Lynch.
01:11:22
Speaker
Have you listened to her her Lynch podcast, Lynch Pins? No, I have not. It's pretty good. there She and ah her co-host go through Lynch's films from least lynchy to most lynchy.
01:11:33
Speaker
ah So they start with the straight story and they haven't gotten to the end quite yet, but yeah. it's It's good. It's a good listen. um But she does ah she did ah a three-part series on Zack Snyder. um And her sign-off for a long time was Save Martha because of that series that she did. But she really digs into the notion of ah Zack Snyder's Randian influences.
01:11:58
Speaker
And a lot of other people have written about it, too, on the internet. I'm not going to get too deep into it, but the critique is, for the most part, is the parrots. Like, they turn... the parents into kind of these Randian figures and as such Superman himself begins to act in his own quote unquote rational self-interest.
01:12:17
Speaker
um The notion that, ah you know, so when, when Clark saves that bus full of kids and pulls the bully out, like Clark asks his dad, what was I supposed to do? Let him die. And he's like, maybe because it's in your best interest to keep your secret.
01:12:31
Speaker
That's a very Randian idea. Yeah. It has nothing to do with like capitalism and consumerism, But at its crux, that's a very Randian notion. No, I completely agree with you.
01:12:42
Speaker
But as I was saying before, there is a trilogy here, and that is kind of resolved in Batman v Superman, where he rejects that. He absolutely fucking rejects that. He's like, maybe...
01:12:54
Speaker
Maybe I need to stop in this fucking movie. Then maybe no, no. In fact, in Batman, Batman v Superman, almost verbatim. He's like, maybe I need to stop, you know, living like my father thinks I should live. Maybe I should do what I know is right.
01:13:11
Speaker
But that's still rational self-interest, Tucker. That's still rational self-interest when you get right down to it. I'm going to reject the rational self-interest of my father and embrace my own rational self-interest. It's the same fucking thing.
01:13:23
Speaker
I suppose. it's the It's the same note. It's the classic like movie trope of like you can save yourself and your friend or the entire world.
01:13:36
Speaker
its it's the spiderman It's the Spider-Man dilemma. It's the cabin in the woods dilemma is what it is. And fuck those motherfuckers. Those selfish bastards.
01:13:49
Speaker
That's the one thing about Cabin in the Woods I don't like. Like, come on, man. What about the rest of us? Come on, man. Come Take one for the team. I would. Come Fuck you. That's why you're a special little butterfly. That's why I'm a good boy. That's why I'm a good boy.
01:14:07
Speaker
Which is, again, why I'm so surprised you're embracing the Randian
Randian Philosophy and Snyder's Films
01:14:11
Speaker
objectivism of... of ah And again, Snyder has said like one of his favorite books of all time is The Fountainhead.
01:14:18
Speaker
do love that book. Like I don't agree with its philosophy, but I do. I love that story. I love Gary Cooper in that movie. That movie is so good. Patricia Neal, y'all don't pay attention to the philosophy, but watch The Fountainhead is a fantastic movie.
01:14:32
Speaker
But see, once you find out that like The Fountainhead is like one of Snyder's touchstones, a lot of these pieces start falling into place. It is now that you're telling me, yes. like i never ive I had never really put that together. And these films, I don't really look at these films for a moral compass. I look at them more for entertainment.
01:14:53
Speaker
Do I think that films and filmmakers should be responsible in the way that they tell stories to maybe sort of try and steer people in the right direction? No.
01:15:05
Speaker
No, I don't. fuck them kids yeah like sorry like art is art and like what are you gonna tell me you don't want john waters to make some shit no we all supposed to live we supposed to live the way that that people live in a john waters movie no fuck that movies are entertainment movies are for fun you can expose an idea tell me that john waters is not espousing a philosophy in his films no he yeah Well, he is. have that That whole monologue in Pink Flamingos, filth is my politics, filth is my life, like, cond don't legalize murder, like, you know. if We get it, John Waters, we get it. Filth is my life is not engraved on John Waters' tombstone, we riot.
01:15:51
Speaker
I will be really mad. I love that man too, though. He's such a sweet man. you ever get the chance be Every time I've been to Provincetown, I just hope I run into him, and I never have. like I've been to P-Town a few times. I love the cape.
01:16:04
Speaker
And I know he's got a house up there, and I always hope I run into him, and he's just never there when I'm there, and it's always a bummer. If you get a chance to hear him speak, it's it it really has been one of the highlights of my life. in Days of the Dead 2012, I want to say.
01:16:22
Speaker
i saw him speak. ah they he It wasn't even a Q&A. It was just him speaking. Yeah. And it was fantastic. he is He is a brilliant and sweet man who just loves trash.
01:16:38
Speaker
Yeah. And he doesn't even believe half the shit that he puts out there. He just thinks it's fantastic and silly and great. just loves throwing shit against the wall. and wouldn take Yes. And that's what i love.
01:16:50
Speaker
I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the John Waters shit I've seen, but you know what? I love the man. But you respect it? I fucking do. absolutely do. Yes. the man isn't The man is is the vulgar auteur.
01:17:03
Speaker
Like, he is the epitome of the vulgar auteur. There's something to say about that, too. Yeah. yeah and there's I love that he gets to make the art that he makes.
01:17:13
Speaker
But... And again, it's not for me, but it's for someone. And it and it gets it gets someone into art. um I don't... I don't know that what Snyder does is getting people into art.
01:17:27
Speaker
I think what it does is getting people into arguments on the internet. and That's true. And that's unfortunate. And I think that's only because the internet exists actually. And I, kind of think of, of Snyder the same way that I think of,
01:17:42
Speaker
John Waters, though, you're telling me that I'm probably wrong because you're saying he's a big fan of the Fountainhead. But then again, I am too, but like at an artistic level, not on a philosophical level. I also like your Anthem. You should check out Anthem if you want a real good Ayn Rand book. You see the Randian philosophy creeping in, not just in Man. It's like, again, people have made cases for it across his work. I think it's nowhere more clear than in in his Superman films, but like it's it's there.
01:18:08
Speaker
Like it's there. um and And it again, like people said when he wanted to adapt the Fountainhead, they were like, oh, this fucking makes sense now. Like it was the last piece of the puzzle that made everything kind of click for them. But they already did the Fountainhead and it's perfect.
01:18:23
Speaker
Zack Snyder. Miss Franken. Gary Cooper's all like Miss Franken. And then he slaps her and then they kiss. Wow. That's that sounds really healthy.
01:18:34
Speaker
It's not, but it's fantastic entertainment. That's what I'll tell you. Oh my God. I have that DVD and it spins a lot. I'll tell you. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. No doubt.
01:18:45
Speaker
Not an objectivist. Once again, I would like clarify, not an objectivist. I feel like it's a bullshit philosophy. You really need to pack that up. Because yeah, it's... Bullshit philosophy, but very entertaining to watch on the silver screen.
01:18:59
Speaker
Um... shall we Shall we take a trek over into the Christianity Corner? Let's do it, please. Find a fucking Lee Jesus. i won't Speaking of Jesus. but
01:19:12
Speaker
We had to get into the rand of it all. We really did. du yeah um And I'm glad we did. I'm glad we had this reckoning um that made you question this a little bit.
01:19:23
Speaker
Well, as as someone who has a very complicated relationship with Ayn Rand, I do appreciate that discussion. tried to read Atlas Shrugged when I was in my No, don't read that.
01:19:34
Speaker
and he's john gold Who the fuck cares who John Galt is? That's a terrible fucking book. I got 100 pages in and nothing had happened, and I put it the fuck down. It sucks. If you want a good Ayn Rand book for entertainment purposes only... Here's the thing. I'm not going engage with Ayn Rand. I'm just not.
01:19:50
Speaker
Anthem. anthems Anthem is the least offensive. I'm not. The closest I want to get to Rand is post Ditko the question. That's as close as I want to get to Ayn Rand. I do like the question. Also, she did a play called Night of January 16th that is very good without having like any ties to objectivism. It's just like a survival, a war survival story of like children and families in war. And it's it's really compelling like without all the objectivist bullshit.
01:20:20
Speaker
And it is bullshit. Let's be very clear. It is bullshit. I own three of her books, but also fuck that bitch. Yes. For sure. Let me be clear.
01:20:31
Speaker
Fuck that bitch. I think I remember at one point in a high school paper, I quoted Ayn Rand for some reason or another. And my my teacher at the time underlined the quote and was like and wrote in the margin, Ayn Rand was one of my favorite authors before I became a Christian.
01:20:48
Speaker
oh oh That's like four red flags in one right there. i mean I came to realize that later. Love that teacher.
01:21:00
Speaker
she was yeah was She was a great teacher, but she had her biases. And they were very conservative. Sometimes you gotta take people warts and all.
Religious Marketing of Man of Steel
01:21:12
Speaker
In Indianapolis, Indiana. like dude Yeah, been there. Yep. Been there. Oh, I know you have. I know you have. Preaching the choir is what I'm doing right now. um But no, let's tiptoe over the Christianity. Speaking of Christianity, let's tiptoe over the Christianity corner.
01:21:26
Speaker
Let's get there. I remember in 2013, so in 2013, I was a Christian school teacher, Bible teacher at a Christian school, and I was also a youth pastor.
01:21:38
Speaker
So I was doing both at the same time. And this was a period of time where, like, people were beginning to realize that the Christian market was viable.
01:21:53
Speaker
Like the the Christian market was a viable one and that they watched movies like no Gibson's passion of the Christ. I think came out when I was in college, like 2003, 2004, somewhere in there.
01:22:04
Speaker
um But you also have like Evan almighty, which was like, unlike Bruce almighty, they actually did like tie-ins with churches And this movie really tried to do that. With Steve Carell, right?
01:22:19
Speaker
Yes. Man of Steel did tie-ins with churches. you fucking nuts? They fucking tried. Yeah, they were selling like... Please tell me. Tell me these things. um i And again, I don't think it was terribly successful given what I remember, but I remember like one of the pastors at the church I was working at, like got a packet for a man of steel. Like they were trying to get like, like they were really trying to, to market hard to the church crowd because they knew the church crowd meant money. Like this was, I feel like around the same time that you had like three different Christian movies and theaters at the same time, you had like
01:22:58
Speaker
Darren Aronofsky's Noah. You had ah God's Not What the was that all about, Russell Crowe? Jesus, Louisa. I kind of like it. Is it good? Should I watch it? Is it good?
01:23:11
Speaker
it's you know watch something It's doing something. It's trying. I do like things that do things and try. i mean, you might like I'm actually a big fan of trying and doing things.
01:23:23
Speaker
I will tell you, it is a deeper deeply, deeply flawed movie. Like, honestly, incredibly... And I do like Darren Aronofsky, so, like, maybe... Fuck, I just was like, what the fuck, Darren Aronofsky? How are you gonna do, like, Requiem for a Dream and then do some fucking Jesus movie?
01:23:39
Speaker
Even though it's Noah, but you know what i mean. Right, no, but, like, Noah, God's Not Dead, and son of Son of God all come out, like, the year after this movie comes out. So, like, the Christian market is is gaining.
01:23:52
Speaker
like and God's Not Dead was kind of one of those huge touchstone moments. That movie is utter dog shit, and i haven't even seen it. I just know it is utter dog shit. I haven't either, and I will totally agree with you. what's the left be how what about the Left Behind series?
01:24:05
Speaker
that That was when I was in college. That came out when I was in college. You know what, Stephen? if they If they were Left Behind, I just wish they'd all been ready.
01:24:17
Speaker
Two men walking up a hill. One still stand or one, one is gone. The other standing still. I wish we'd all been ready. Here's the thing, though, about left behind movies, Tucker. Are you ready for this? Yeah.
01:24:34
Speaker
They tried to reboot that in 2014, the year after Man of Steel. I noticed that. Yeah. with age And they never got a sequel. So guess what, Tucker?
01:24:45
Speaker
Good. Oh, on can wait May please? say Soon. na I don't know about soon. I have a guest I would love to get for that episode, but he is in England and is going to be tough to get.
01:25:01
Speaker
um But I really would like because he is like a theology profil. Like he is a has a doctorate in theology and is really fucking smart. OGD. Look, I'll do it in the middle of the day if we have to. Like schedules be damned if we need to get somebody like that on for sure.
01:25:16
Speaker
i floated it to him years ago and he was interested at the time. And they I'm not on Twitter anymore, so i'm not sure how to get a hold of him. so Fuck a Twitter. TBD.
01:25:28
Speaker
um But yeah, there is ah there's a Nicolas Cage version of Left Behind, and it's fucking madness. um Yes, it is. but like So this movie, they marketed hard to churches. And again, it's all about the Christian imagery that Snyder like milks for this movie. Like Superman falling to Earth in the in the crucifix pose the fact that he's 33 him being flanked by an image of Jesus and Gethsemane and the stained glass behind him like no they laid on yeah well and there's the whole thing thick here like imagine you know the scene in dogma with Alan Rickman and Linda Forentino where she's like I don't want this and Alan Rickman's like like imagine being the motherfucker has to talk to Jesus
01:26:18
Speaker
And he's saying the same thing. And you're like, no, you have to. And he's like, no, I don't want to. Like, that's a five minute scene. hu Right. Well, that's like a third this fucking movie edit the episode on on Dogma, by the way.
01:26:33
Speaker
That is like a third of this fucking movie of him being of of him being like, look, I am the savior, but I i kind of don't fucking want to be.
Impact of Personal Tragedy on Snyder's Vision
01:26:45
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Like, how do I come to terms with the fact that I'm the guy? I'm the fucking guy. I don't want to be the fucking wants to be the fucking guy? Nobody wants to be the guy. never gets there in this movie.
01:26:57
Speaker
He doesn't. He does. i mean, with his limited screen time in the rest of the trilogy, he's barely there. that's another reason why I don't think can classify Justice League and Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice as sequels to this movie is because Superman's barely fucking in them. I i know I mentioned that in the first half hour, but still.
01:27:19
Speaker
i i'm gonna I'm going to retract what I said, and I do agree with you, Steven. Batman v. Superman is not a sequel to this film, but Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman, and Justice League is one cohesive narrative.
01:27:38
Speaker
It one They're the point that Snyder trying to tell. And he didn't get to finish it. Despite everything else that was going on. And that's too bad. And that's too fucking bad because I think Snyder really had he kind of had a vision for that shit. And it's it's really sad that like it kind of got disrupted by some family stuff, like with his his daughter had passed.
01:28:04
Speaker
And that's kind of the reason that Joss Whedon took over Justice League. And that's very upsetting. That's very sad. Very tragically. Like had, I, if I remember correctly, had, had, she took her own life. She took her own life. yeah her own life Right.
01:28:18
Speaker
Yes. That was what I, and that's very, and I feel for that man. And, and like, that's, that's a real world thing. Anybody. Exactly. And as much as I would have loved for this narrative to move forward, like, I get it, dude.
01:28:36
Speaker
Your daughter committed suicide. Like, fucking take some time. Take some fucking time, please. It's not worth it. The response to the, the response to the films was, we was getting weaker and weaker.
01:28:51
Speaker
ah Something that Snyder bros do not seem to be able to comprehend.
Criticism of Snyder's Fanbase
01:28:56
Speaker
Man, fuck a Snyder bro. I am inclined to agree with you, Tucker. However... Fuck a Snyder bro and lift up the boys that just appreciate Snyder as a filmmaker.
01:29:07
Speaker
Actually, you know what? It's not a call. you don't they They shouldn't be fucked. We don't need more Snyder bros. Yes. Please do not procreate with a Snyder bro. We don't need more Snyder bros.
01:29:20
Speaker
We need more people who just appreciate him as a filmmaker, whether they ah want to partake in his films or not. There it is. um I, yeah, and so again, to kind of circle back to the Christianity corner, um my my aforementioned friend, Justin Knapp, who is the biggest Superman fan that
Superman as a Christ Figure
01:29:40
Speaker
I know.
01:29:40
Speaker
knew some Knapps. yeah That man loves Superman. I remember when in the early aughts, they updated Superman, or I think it was the late 90s. They gave him like electric powers. Like they took away the classic Superman suit and power set.
01:29:58
Speaker
No more x-ray vision, new 52 bullshit. yeah yeah Even before that, before all that, like late, I'm talking late night, 98, 99. um And I remember having a conversation with him and him just being like really devastated, like legitimately devastated that they had deviated so far from what Superman was and had been.
01:30:20
Speaker
um And in an attempt to kind of be cool and appeal to a different kind of audience. um Like he was he was legitimately upset by it. I don't know what he thinks about this movie. I should have probably asked him before we recorded this episode, but I didn't. That would have been fantastic.
01:30:38
Speaker
But he wrote um our sophomore year. We had to write research papers on any topic of our choosing. And he chose to write a paper on ah a quote from Alex Ross, yeah more or less, by a quote from comics illustrator Alex Ross, who, if you know Alex Ross, is kind of known for his sort of hyper-realistic style. Hyper-realistic. Yeah, that kingdom come shit.
01:31:01
Speaker
Exactly. he's the He's the man who gave us kingdom come and also marvel ah which is kind of the the Marvel analog to DC's Kingdom Come. Both are incredible books that deserve your attention. Both Alex Ross. bear most If you ever want to see what like the pajama spandex shit looks like in real life, for good or for ill, check out some Alex Ross. Alex Ross. it's Because for good or for ill, it is represented in some Alex Ross shit. That's real fabric. We're looking at real fabric.
01:31:31
Speaker
If you want Alex Ross, you you need to read Marvels and you need to read Kingdom Come. Those are the two. like He's done a lot of other stuff and it's all very good, but those are the two.
01:31:42
Speaker
And I think he had a lot of creative input in those more so than in others where he's kind of a hired gun. um But like those are basically ones that he co-wrote with Mark Waid and Kurt Busseag, respectively. But he...
01:31:54
Speaker
but he He had a quote where he says, Superman is the ultimate failed Christ figure. he fishha He desires to save everyone, but is constantly reckoning with the fact that he can't.
01:32:09
Speaker
And i think that is real, and that was what that was what Justin wrote his sophomore thesis on, basically, was that quote, Superman as the ultimate failed Christ image.
01:32:21
Speaker
Or Christ figure, which I think is a really compelling thing that I don't say i think i don't think Snyder views him as a failed Christ figure, um despite the fact that he certainly depicts him as one.
01:32:36
Speaker
But there's this notion that Superman, despite being this incredibly powered being from this other place, and again, Christ imagery is there. Like, it's there. despite being and a and ah uniquely Jewish character, it's there.
01:32:52
Speaker
Whether you like it or not, it's there. Whether you like it or not. it's And and it's been it's been imbued in there. Again, whether and that's not, I'm sure, not what Siegel and Schuster intended when they created the character.
01:33:06
Speaker
But it's there, all the same. um and And that is effectively what, and I think, whether or not Snyder intended to write a Superman that is the failed Christ image,
01:33:17
Speaker
that is ultimately what he delivers with this movie.
Subverting Expectations in Man of Steel
01:33:21
Speaker
And so I think fa based on that thesis, yes, I think that's true, which is why, again, I find it really weird that this movie was marketed to churches. And again, I was on staff at a church when this movie came out. Like, it it did.
01:33:34
Speaker
They did. Well, and that's fucked up because, like, if they're marketing this to Christian audiences because of the theug the Christ imagery and... and um it's just odd because like Superman, he he fails exactly as a Christlike figure.
01:33:56
Speaker
yeah Like, why would you market that to people who want to see basically a Jesus when Superman fails to be Jesus? Because like you really misunderstand not just the character of Superman, but the character of Jesus Christ himself.
01:34:12
Speaker
You tee him up to be this Christ-like figure, but in the end... No. no, no. And that's the way, I think I kind of figured it out. I think I figured out why I like this movie is because that's the way that it subverted my expectations.
01:34:29
Speaker
Is that they set this guy up as as a very Jesus-like at 33 years old, coming to terms with his his life as a Messiah, as the savior of the whole entire fucking world.
01:34:46
Speaker
And he kind of I mean, he does it, but he drops the ball at the same time. And think that's, I was saying earlier how I like contrast. I like shit that subverts my expectations.
01:34:59
Speaker
And this, they set it up to be a Jesus story. But in the end, it's like, nah, nah, he tried. He tried his best. That's kind of what i like about it is because it is kind of grounded to where like he did, he did what he could. But in the end, he's just a dude.
01:35:16
Speaker
A very, very fucking powerful dude. Right. But in the end, he's just a fucking dude who has to make those hard decisions. And sometimes he's going to make the wrong one. Sometimes you're going to make the right one.
01:35:27
Speaker
Sometimes going to make the wrong one. All that power does not mean that he has the emotional capacity to make those fucking decisions. Right. know I'm saying?
01:35:39
Speaker
Why he functions as a failed Christ figure.
Critique of Snyder's Comic Adaptations
01:35:41
Speaker
um Yeah. and i And again, I don't know that Snyder... totally understands that i don't know that he gets it but it works for me and and again it works for me i'm glad it works for you but again i don't and and that is the issue i have with this with snyder's with with snyder's comic book adaptations outside of 300 300 has its own problems and i feel like those problems are deeply rooted in frank miller
01:36:10
Speaker
ah the guide I was going to say that's a that's a cell by cell that is a panel by panel recreation there's no like there's nobody to blame but like Frank Miller honestly because all Zack Snyder did was take every panel from that comic and put it into a fucking movie correct and and let's let's be really frank Frank Miller is a fascist can I still be Garth sure okay good frank Frank Miller is legit a fascist. And 300 one of his... 300 is one of his many texts where you're like, we should have probably seen this coming.
01:36:53
Speaker
um Yeah, it's there. the subtext, for sure. It's all fucking... Like, you get these, like, pristine, godlike Greeks and then these, like, mutants... Just greasy oil, boys.
01:37:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's bad. It's the most masculine thing you can imagine right there. The most damning thing that Snyder does is just copy it verbatim under the screen.
01:37:19
Speaker
That is the most damning thing that he does. it well I don't know that it does is my point. ain't mad at him. He did what he did and there it is. I'm kind of mad at him. Um... It's entertaining and it is visually stunning is what I will say.
01:37:34
Speaker
And there's something to be said about that. And I will say that 300 is probably, and and again, this is probably also faint damning with faint praise. 300 the most...
01:37:45
Speaker
the most accurate of the Snyder comic book adaptations. I will say for sure. Yeah. It's panel for panel. It is panel for panel. I do really wish we've argued.
01:37:56
Speaker
Watchmen. He completely misses the point. Superman. He completely misses the point. Like but the thing that's the point in spades. And again, I feel like that's kind of damning in and of itself, but it's really too bad. We don't have like a little shop of horrors,
01:38:11
Speaker
like original ending to Watchmen because you can, can you imagine how bad-ass that movie looks with the movie or I'm sorry, with the ending that makes it all make sense?
01:38:27
Speaker
Can you imagine that? Can you imagine like everything looking so bad-ass and for only at the end for it to be shown and revealed that none of that was bad.
01:38:42
Speaker
How perfect of a fucking adaptation would that have been? That would have been really... That would have been really great. perfect. Holy fuck. I don't think Snyder has that in him.
01:38:56
Speaker
I mean, I'm saying according to him in the commentary on Watchmen and stuff that I have read since then, it was... It almost happened. Yeah.
01:39:06
Speaker
It almost happened, but i think sny I think Snyder's thing with Watchmen was that he did not have faith in the mainstream audience, which I get, because like Tommy Lee Jones says in Men in Black, a person is smart and understanding and empathetic, but people as a whole fucking suck.
01:39:29
Speaker
That's a good comparison. If you are, yeah, not verbatim, but if you're ah if you're trying to make something for the masses, if you're trying to make something that's going to make money, you have to make some compromises. You have to soften some things.
01:39:45
Speaker
You have to make it bullshit so that your average dipshit is going to get into it. But can you imagine how stylistic and like just beautiful Watchmen was with the original ending just to just like crush your dreams and destroy everything that you'd built up during that whole movie? It would have been a perfect film.
01:40:09
Speaker
You put the original ending to Watchmen in the movie Watchmen, perfect fucking film.
Engaging Superman Stories
01:40:15
Speaker
I... need to reread Watchmen. that's That's what I'm learning right now.
01:40:21
Speaker
um because i I need to stop putting people graphic novels because I used to own Watchmen, but I don't need anymore. I legitimately out too many i suffer at one point in my life, I owned several different ah graphic novels of Watchmen that I would literally just give. I would have spares that I could just give to people if they wanted to read Watchmen.
01:40:46
Speaker
um That was a thing that I did for a while. um I would just have extra copies of Watchmen just lying around my apartment. And if someone hadn't read Watchmen, I'd be like, here, you should read Watchmen.
01:40:58
Speaker
Yeah, check it out, right? I would just gift them a copy because I had i had my copy, but I had spares. Yeah. My problem is I only had one copy and I lent it out and I expected people to follow the rules of borrowing and give it back to me at some point.
01:41:15
Speaker
And some point in between 2010 and 2015, copy of Watchmen
01:41:21
Speaker
my copy of watchmen ah when went the way of the dinosaurs outside of the Jurassic World universe extinct. It no longer exists. i don't know what the fuck happened to it.
01:41:33
Speaker
Slowly went the way of the buffalo. Oh no, Buffalo's is back though. We almost kind of did them extinction. Almost. Anyway, you're told what now?
01:41:45
Speaker
Tucker, I'm told that we'd pay a visit to a certain other corner of the room. It's funny that I built that up so much with you. ah ah Yeah, there was a mobile game and it sucked.
01:42:00
Speaker
It's really hard to make a Superman game because the character himself is so overpowered. It's hard to build those mechanics into a video game. That's I mean, honestly, I'm glad that you mentioned that this far into the episode because I haven't touched on it. One of the reasons that I don't really fuck with Superman is because as you'll probably um agree with, um unless you get somebody who can really do something different and exciting with them, it's kind of a fucking boring character.
01:42:30
Speaker
He's all with outside of kryptonite. He's just all powerful. And what the fuck are you going to do? Like who gives a shit? That's why you should definitely check out those comics that I recommended. What's so funny about truth, justice in the American way and all-star Superman.
01:42:43
Speaker
ah What's so funny about truth, justice in the American way is a single issue. Easy to find, easy to read. All-star Superman is a 12 issue miniseries or maxi series. It, but it, it's fucking worth your time to check out and read, read those comics. They find a way to make Superman.
01:42:58
Speaker
Superman. really engaging and human. And it's, they are, they're fucking incredible. They really are. if If you get nothing else out of this episode, read What's So Funny About Truth, Justice the American Way by Joe Kelly and Doug Menke and All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison and Frank Quiley.
01:43:20
Speaker
Those two films will be worth your time. I would like to read those. And for this reason, let me let me explain this to you, is that I start at a place of no always understanding and knowing who Superman is, but not giving a fuck about it because he's the kind of he's invulnerable. He only has one weakness.
01:43:40
Speaker
Who gives a shit that's so boring? Which is why I've never why i have never engaged with him up to this point. Outside of his friend. I do enjoy his friendship with Batman. Like i do like if if there's an all-star Superman Batman. I'm way into that. Like whatever.
01:43:56
Speaker
But as far as Superman on his own. Boring to me. So please give me good Superman shit. Because starting where from where I am. The Superman I enjoy is Man of Steel. And according to you.
01:44:09
Speaker
That's kind of just like the most basic, like you don't even understand who Superman actually is. is a fundamental understanding Superman. ending of so I would argue. So it's a great place to be because i still have that foundation of Snyder's Man of Steel where I can still enjoy that.
01:44:28
Speaker
But also I can build on that if you give me some shit like to read that will just like blow my mind. Another run, and it's a long run, but it's worth It's worth digging into. many issues?
01:44:41
Speaker
yeah i had Several. it It ran for... um It's like a whole fucking run, like several years. and And across four different titles. Fuck the duck. There was... After the death of Superman and the funeral for a friend, there was a The main Superman titles each had... It was a saga called The Reign of the Supermen.
01:45:02
Speaker
And it was maybe that because you had like steel and you had like super boy and like all those Mim efforts, eradicator and cyborg Superman. And it really defined, it really helped to define.
01:45:16
Speaker
Don't die. Please don't die. That saga really helped. And it ends with the return of the actual Superman, the the real Superman. But it's this, I, this, it,
01:45:28
Speaker
it really does a good job of trying to define what Superman is for the 90s. Like, for that era. And by by exploring all the... It's like...
01:45:42
Speaker
It's like the Islamic principle. If you want to describe God, you don't describe what he is, you describe what he isn't. Yeah. That's what Reign of Superman does for Superman. Reign of the Superman does for Superman.
01:45:54
Speaker
It defines Superman by defining what he's not. And it's a really, really fascinating run on that. Way into that. um It would probably help to read Death of Super... the death The whole Death of Superman arc and Funeral for a Friend first to set that up.
01:46:11
Speaker
So again, you're committing yourself to a lot. And it's 90s comics. So not the best era for the genre or for the medium. But still, there's some good stuff to be had there.
Superman's Kansas Upbringing
01:46:23
Speaker
If you know where you're looking. So again... so That's that that's my that's Stephen's comic book corner ah recommending what's so funny about truth justice in the American way action comic 775 all star Superman issues 1 through 12 and the reign of the Superman saga. and That's that's where I would start you and then we can get into stuff like Superman for all seasons and stuff like that.
01:46:45
Speaker
Yeah. But again, like there's this this notion that Superman, despite being born on this other planet, is raised in Kansas with like wholesome Middle American values.
01:46:58
Speaker
And those are the things that define him as a character, and those are not the things that define this version Superman. Which again, is what I find so frustrating. It's funny in Batman v Superman um right before the guy in the wheelchair blows up like the entire government building.
01:47:16
Speaker
Scoot McNair, yeah. Somebody's like, go back to your planet. And Superman's like, bitch, I'm from Kansas. Yeah. We're talking about going back to my planet. like I don't even know what my planet is. Motherfucker, I'm from Kansas.
01:47:28
Speaker
And that's what he said. that's what and i should I should mention, ah Harry Lennox is in this movie. And I went to college with his niece. Um, nice. Yeah. Which was kind of cool. Uh, it was one of those things like a buddy of mine was like, did you know that so-and-so is Harry Lennox's niece? And I'm like, I think you briefly mentioned that before, like I might've done ago.
01:47:49
Speaker
Maybe I might've done, but he's, he's an incredible actor and he's in this movie, but like Superman says to him at the end of the Henry Cavill says to him at the end of this movie, I'm from Kansas. I'm as American as it gets. The problem is that the, the America that this Superman embodies is not the America the The hopeful America. It's the America of now.
01:48:09
Speaker
the The America veering on a fascist state. That's the America this Superman represents. And that's why I think that like I did enjoy these films in the past and watching all three of them as a trilogy helped a lot.
01:48:24
Speaker
But also in 2025, a lot of the shit that goes on in these movies hits a lot fucking harder. So different. yeah A lot harder And i I I don't think that was intentional by Zack Snyder Because as much as I love Zack Snyder as a filmmaker his second i god I don't think that he's like Tapped in to that shit he He definitely is Like Michael Bay A very technically Proficient filmmaker He does what he does And he does it very well but The boy can make some shit look good can
01:49:01
Speaker
And I think that's why you have to have somebody like David S. Goyer who wrote this film to kind of balance that out. And unfortunately, i don't think Goyer does a particularly good job here. It doesn't know. And I get that. Like, I understand your point of view and I understand why people don't particularly enjoy this movie as a Superman film or as a film.
01:49:24
Speaker
But for me, in the these three films specifically, man of Steel, Batman versus Superman and Zack Snyder's Justice League. It.
01:49:36
Speaker
I don't know for what he was trying to do. He he really knocks it out of the park. ah You can say shit about it. like You cannot like it. I have, and I will. And you have, and i agree with the majority of what you're saying, but I also enjoy it anyway because it it is kind of its own thing. and Like I was saying before, it is kind of, as much as I like the Marvel films of that era, it's kind of, not even really the anti-Marvel, but just like the, hey, this isn't
01:50:10
Speaker
Like, this is a little different. Right. and it And as much as I have shit on aspects of this film, I don't dislike this movie. I think the action sequences go on too long, but I really dig the performances, particularly...
01:50:25
Speaker
particularly Michael Shannon as General Zod. Holy shit. Talk about an overqualified actor. That's why, like, look, you don't go like after the flash comes out, you're like, Oh, I did that because, you know, i was contractually obligated and like, I'm too good for superhero films.
01:50:43
Speaker
Fuck you. Acting is acting. here's the You know what, you give a good performance, you can change a whole fucking feel. And Michael Shannon does that. I fucking love Michael Shannon like on the press tour for The Flash going, I don't understand multiverse, I don't get it.
01:51:02
Speaker
Like, I thought I died in that first movie, and they were like, no, but there's a multiverse. And I was like, I don't know what that is. He still killed it. He didn't get it, but I watched The Flash today, Stephen.
01:51:13
Speaker
Mere hours ago, I watched The Flash, and he did object up to that but okay he still fucking kills it. Michael ten still is giving a hundred percent. He may bitch about it in interviews, but this boy is on the whole time. He's there. Here's the thing with Michael Shannon. Even when he's phoning it in, he's fucking a amazing.
01:51:36
Speaker
And that's Steppenwolf, baby. That man is like that trained in Chicago. That is fucking Steppenwolf is what that is. Speaking Steppenwolf, boy, I'll tell you what.
01:51:48
Speaker
You'd like to dream right between the sound machine. no
01:51:55
Speaker
It's weird. In the past, like, probably three months, that song has been stuck in my head. I haven't listened to it.
01:52:06
Speaker
like to dream, yeah. Right, right, right between the sound machines. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why that's been in my head, but it has been.
01:52:18
Speaker
um I really something I will say, of Steel, if you enjoyed Man of Steel, like Steven and I are on kind of two sides the same coin.
01:52:29
Speaker
Like, I think we understand this film in the same way. We just enjoy it. I enjoy it for different the same reasons that he hates it. Yeah. I think we both understand it all in the same way. on Yeah.
01:52:40
Speaker
It's a matter of taste, honestly. like i think we both get it. like But if you did enjoy this film... do If you have a couple days, do the trilogy, which is Man of Steel, Ultimate Cut, Batman vs. Superman, and Snyder Cut of Justice League because it is it is a narrative.
01:53:03
Speaker
And it's better if you watch them together because, like I said, i watched these before, enjoyed these individually, but they were years apart. I never revisited. But the last two days...
01:53:15
Speaker
like the all three of these stars went All three of these films went up a star just because I watched them together.
01:53:24
Speaker
Or you could have a modicum of self-respect and and watch like Sinners three times. Yo, do watch Sinners. But also, if Man of Steel is your thing... rules In between, like, reviewings of Sinners, also watch Batman v Superman and Zack Snyder's Justice League.
01:53:45
Speaker
Ultimate cut of Batman Superman. I'm talking to the people that have a modicum of self-respect. Oh, you're yes. For all you degenerates and dirtbags out there, just just watch Sinners in between. You could watch Sinners twice while watching this
Future of Superman Films
01:54:02
Speaker
trilogy. Look, you watch Man Steel, Sinners.
01:54:05
Speaker
Batman v Superman, Sinners. Justice League? I don't know. Maybe when that's over, maybe you watch Sinners again. Or maybe it's a couple days later and you have to go to the theater to watch that new Superman that's not going to make very much money and is going to kill DC movies. Let's fucking get into this. because i You and I are of opposite opinions on the upcoming Superman film.
01:54:33
Speaker
Because I see the trailer and i see i see what you mean. i understand why you're hopeful for it, why you're hopeful for it. But for me, it's just it's just laying it on too thick. In fact, I read an article where where they were like, we had to take out crypto scenes because it was it was just too cute and wholesome.
01:54:56
Speaker
And like, yes, like... ah You know... and And here's... here's it's it's just It's a world where that's not... I don't know if that's... Do I like it?
01:55:08
Speaker
I don't know. Is it appropriate right now? i don't think so, dude. I don't think it's going to resonate with people. I feel like now more than ever, we need something to hope for. we need something no I'm not saying we don't need it.
01:55:21
Speaker
I'm saying we're all so fucking hopeless that it's not going to resonate. It's not enough. It's not enough. I... i There's a principle I have up until recently referred to by the name of a now-canceled creator who has – who pushed this theory, but there's this notion – Just their name so I know who it is. I've called it the Gaiman principle. after. Okay. All right.
01:55:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I got you. Um, you know, who has yeah been involved in a lot of alleged sexual assault. Yeah. Alleged. Yeah. We're going to, yeah. We're going to believe women, you know, exactly to keep ourselves out of legal trouble. But that said, um, they espoused years ago on a blog that I read. And again, this was when I was in my early, early twenties, um, that the truer, and this, I feel like has born true, the truer to the source material, a comic,
01:56:16
Speaker
add up to a comic book film adaptation is the better it will do commercially and I feel like more than more than anyone probably since Richard Donner and maybe even more than Richard Donner I feel like James Gunn gets Superman the fact that he is using all-star Superman as a reference point for this movie is a really encouraging sign for me as a comic book reader Like a super encouraging sign because that tells me that he gets what makes Superman tick as a character.
01:56:54
Speaker
The fact that it was his own father's death that inspired his script for this movie. The fact that Pa Kent dying in a lot of continuities is a formative experience for Superman. It's a big deal for sure.
01:57:08
Speaker
The fact that you know his own experiences with his problem um rescue dog. inspired the relationship between Superman and Krypto. Like all of that stuff leads me to believe that this is going to be really, a really faithful adaptation of the character of Superman. And that's what leads me to believe it will be successful because the truer, excuse me, the truer to the heart of these things that the adaptations tend to be, the better they end up doing.
01:57:38
Speaker
And so I think I, I'm very hope I'm, I will say this, I am more excited for Superman Than I am for the Fantastic Four. And we will spend the next couple of weeks. Talking about the Fantastic Four.
01:57:50
Speaker
Wink wink hint hint nudge nudge. here's But i am more I am far more excited for Superman. than i i In fact I have already told my partner. Who hates superhero movies. That I will probably ask for Superman. To be my birthday movie. That we see in the theater this year.
01:58:04
Speaker
oh Because i wanted I love to see a movie. In theaters on my birthday. We're both taking my birthday off work. So that we can, and and I want to go to the theater and I want to see the new Superman movie. Like that's what I want to for my birthday.
01:58:17
Speaker
If you want to see it twice on that day, I will drive to Chicago. I'm just saying. If you're offering, I might take you up on that. Honestly.
01:58:28
Speaker
Bitch, I will go see that movie with you. might take you up. i will I will discuss it with my partner, but I i might take you up. I mean, if you're trying to see it twice, I don't want to take that opportunity from your partner. like You do that, and then we'll also have our thing.
01:58:42
Speaker
I'll watch it with the both of you, and then we can all go to the burgers after. Fuck yeah. I do like a burger. I know. she And she likes a veggie burger, so we can all get... We can find a place that's got all the different kinds of burgers. Right.
01:58:57
Speaker
Because i there's two things I love to do on my birthday. I like to see a movie in the theater and I like to get a cheeseburger. That's what I like. Here's the thing about the new Superman that's coming out, Stephen.
01:59:08
Speaker
um i think James Gunn, he's always been a good filmmaker. But I think in the last maybe five to ten years, he has evolved into kind of ah like an S-tier filmmaker.
01:59:22
Speaker
Like he doesn't miss. And I don't necessarily think that this Superman movie that's coming out is going to be an objective miss, but I also don't think it's the Superman movie that's going to work right now.
01:59:37
Speaker
Is it the best Superman movie objectively? Maybe it might be probably. i haven't seen it yet, but it looks like it might be, but also I don't think that's going to work right now is the thing.
01:59:52
Speaker
I don't think it matters that it's the best. I don't think it's like, I don't think it's going to work for like the way people are feeling right now in general. Like it feels too,
02:00:07
Speaker
I don't know. like Sinners was... We're talking about Sinners again. You guys, go see Sinners. It's on Max. Everybody has Max. Who doesn't have Max? Raise your hand if you don't have Max.
02:00:17
Speaker
I don't see any hands. I kind of want to fucking watch. It's it's almost 10 o'clock at night here. and here and I might see it. In Illinois, I'm i'm considering watching it after this. maybe or Maybe we'll watch it as soon as we're done recording this podcast, Stephen.
02:00:30
Speaker
Fucking rules. I love it. We're going to wrap it up in about four minutes, though. It is my favorite movie of the year so far. Yeah, it's almost 11 o'clock. me And you know what? Honestly, Stephen, I had mentioned to you before that it didn't exactly, I think it was overhyped for me at didn and it didn't hit exactly what my expectations were.
02:00:49
Speaker
i think it still is probably the best film of the year. Even with that one view where it kind of did not reach exactly my expectations. It's one of those movies I feel like every time I watch it, I'm going to get something else. out I'm going to find something else in it.
02:01:02
Speaker
And that's the thing. I think I need to watch it again because I think if I watch it again, knowing what I having watched it before and been like, oh, like these people are just like doing social media shit and being crazy and being exaggerated because they're on social media.
02:01:22
Speaker
Like maybe since I know what it is now and I'm not taking that into consideration, i will probably enjoy it a lot more, like deeply a lot more. When I saw that movie in theaters, and I took a mental health thing. You watched it in theaters? Damn. I'm so jealous.
02:01:40
Speaker
I missed it in 70mm, although there's a theater in Chicago that is doing it in 70mm in August. Oh, fuck. Steven, can we go? Can I go? Can I go with you? Can we go together? We're friends.
02:01:51
Speaker
I am tempted to take a stand-for. In August? And you saw it. You saw that it was there. It's going to be there. It's confirmed. It's going to be there. In August? Confirmed. In August. Steven, I'll be in Chicago in August to watch Sinners with you. I'll take a day off work. I will legitimately take a day off work to go see it. 70 millimeter?
02:02:10
Speaker
Yeah. Those transitions, Steven...
02:02:15
Speaker
To 16 by... I'm not even 16 by 9. It was fucking scope. It wasn't even flat. It was even thinner. From that to IMAX, which is like essentially 4 by 3.
02:02:27
Speaker
a Speaking of... Batman v Superman. Coming back to the film we're actually covering. Batman v Superman, which is a kind of spinoff. I will concede.
02:02:40
Speaker
spinoff. i will concede ah spinoff Though it's a narrative, but still I'm glad you're coming around my way of thinking. Yes. It's just like I'm I'm learning to not just be so precious about it. It's more like I just don't care.
02:02:57
Speaker
Because I know it's one cohesive narrative. And I do agree with what you said about how like, yeah, Man of Steel is all Superman. And even though Batman v Superman is all about the fallout of Man of Steel, Superman's only in it for a bit. So like, I understand that. so I'm kind of taking that into account as well.
02:03:20
Speaker
I don't remember why I brought it up, but I'm glad we cleared that up. I truly am.
02:03:27
Speaker
ah But yeah, Sinner's Rules, and Man of Steel is fine. um I will say, though, Man of Steel does come out on july on June 14th in the year of our Lord 2013. Oh, gosh. The year of my divorce.
02:03:44
Speaker
The best summer of my life. a um I would say i was firmly married in 2013. Good for you, Steven. Was it?
02:03:56
Speaker
Maybe at the time. Maybe not in the long run. Who knows? I wasn't there. You weren't. Man of Steel opens at number one. It opens to $128.7 million.
Man of Steel: Box Office and Trilogy Discussion
02:04:11
Speaker
you would You would be surprised with the amount of shit these movies get.
02:04:16
Speaker
They did well at the box office, at least the trilogy I spoke of. the The domestic box office on this movie is $291. two hundred and ninety one It gets another $377 million international for worldwide box office of $668 million. not freaking out, but we made money.
02:04:33
Speaker
Right. That is on an advertised budget of $225 million. sixty eight million dollars like we're not freaking about happyby we're not freaking out but we made money right that is on a on a budget of two hundred and an eight on an advertised budget of two hundred and twenty five so And then you add $50 to $100 million for promotion?
02:05:02
Speaker
Correct. board or And you're still making $200 million. that's That sounds great to me. Right. and And so it was kind of one of those things like we need to hit $300 million to get a sequel. It does about that and doesn't get a sequel.
02:05:16
Speaker
What it gets is a few spinoffs within the same universe. It gets one franchise, but not another, which is again, why I refer it back to the X-Men Origins Wolverine.
02:05:29
Speaker
It started one franchise, but not the franchise they intended to start. Well, and see, like, I see what you're saying there, and, like, I do agree. As we've discussed this, I agree that it does fit the format of this podcast, but at the same time, as I've said several times during this podcast, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and Zack Snyder's Justice League is one narrative.
02:05:52
Speaker
Everything else in the Snyderverse, everything else in the DCEU, Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman 1984, Shazam, Shazam, and Shazam 2... Like Aquaman, all that shit. It's all backstory. It's all side shit.
02:06:07
Speaker
The main narrative is those three films. If you watch those three films back to back, it's like watching the three back to the future films because not only do they recap it, but it just it's instantly starts from the end of the last film.
02:06:23
Speaker
I mean, you could do that, but why would you want to? I did it, and let me tell you i know if you, if you even slightly enjoy these films, they are better if you watch them in, like, a 48-hour period. I watch them in a 24-hour period, less than a 24-hour period, but I don't want to put that pressure on you. I'm going to say, if you watch all three of them within a week, you're probably good.
02:06:47
Speaker
I am going to say, Tucker, this is one of our longest episodes in recent memory. I'm glad, and you know what? Like, Damn near zero tangents. Not a lot of tangents. We've been fairly focused on this episode, yeah. We've either been talking about this movie, the origin of the characters in this movie, different versions of the characters in this movie, different people who have interpreted the characters in this movie.
02:07:12
Speaker
It's pretty much... I mean, Superman's been a part of most of it, and this is a Superman... well
02:07:20
Speaker
it's a it's a ah It's a good movie that also has Superman is it in it. I will even admit that it's probably not a good Superman movie, but it is a really good movie I like that Superman's in.
02:07:32
Speaker
You know what? The fact that I can get you to say on a recorded on a recorded line that this is not a good Superman movie, I'm going to count that as a victory. I'm okay with that. um'm like There's a lot of films that are adaptations of things that I have no dogs in those races that I'm fans of. but in And I will acknowledge it's not a good adaptation of the character, but I still really like this fucking movie. Like, I get it.
02:07:58
Speaker
I get where you're coming from, but that really doesn't have much of a bearing
Impact of Creative Limitations in Filmmaking
02:08:02
Speaker
on me. but and And here's, here's like like, George Lucas wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie. Couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon.
02:08:11
Speaker
So he did the Star war Wars instead. He did the Star Wars. And here's the thing. Sometimes the limitations... Help the artist make the better art.
02:08:22
Speaker
I wish he had gotten the Flash Gordon, Stephen, because now we got all these Star Wars fanboys. I know. And here's the thing. Flash Gordon, fun movie. We covered it on this podcast. See our past episode on Flash Gordon?
02:08:34
Speaker
You did. I did enjoy that. It's a fun fucking movie. It's a good episode. I was not in that episode, but I did quite enjoy it. I was a fan at the time. That was the the year before we we added Tucker to the roster.
02:08:45
Speaker
That's me. That's you. Um... but But yeah, Superman, gains again, it makes about ah just shy $700 million worldwide.
02:08:56
Speaker
I mean, that's really close to a billion compared to other films. Just saying. Compared to films that made less than that, it is real gross.
02:09:07
Speaker
Compared to movies that made $600 million or less? yeah it a lot Not a lot, dude. It opens at number one at the box office, opening at number two at the box office, also in its first weekend. One of my partner's favorite movies, actually. This is the end.
02:09:27
Speaker
The Seth Rogen end of the world movie. I feel like that is a contender for Upsall Christianity Corner one of these days. Oh, we could do it. I mean, i don't know That movie, I love how it starts out.
02:09:41
Speaker
Like, it starts out being all about certain characters, and then as it evolves, it becomes about different characters, and then at the end, all you care about are characters you didn't even meet until halfway through the film.
02:09:56
Speaker
It's brilliant. I call it Danny Tate Yum.
02:10:02
Speaker
This is the ah Danny McBride. Like, I'm so fucking good in that. Danny McBride's peak film per film performance. I'm not talking about TV. I'm not talking about HBO shows.
02:10:14
Speaker
Peak film performance is This Is The End. there There's no more Danny McBride than Danny McBride is in This is the End. Maybe Tropic Thunder, but This is the End. Nope.
02:10:27
Speaker
There's not enough of Danny McBride in that to have it even compare. Danny McBride in This is the End is peak. Peak fucking Danny McBride.
02:10:39
Speaker
He's dropping loads everywhere, man. you know You don't even know where they are. You know? In third place in its third weekend.
02:10:50
Speaker
It's just like Jay Baruchel and Seth Rogen. And again eventually it's it's just Danny McBride's movie at some point. Like about halfway through, it becomes Danny McBride's movie.
02:11:04
Speaker
He does leave the movie, but when he comes back, he comes back even stronger. that his presence is His presence is felt. And when he comes back, it just solidifies that. I call him Channing Tate Young.
02:11:16
Speaker
In third place, ah holding steady at third place for its third weekend in a row, a little movie called Now You See Me, which is getting its third entry in the franchise this later this year. yeah our a previously mentioned friend Caroline really liked those movies too. but i I liked the first one. i haven't seen second one all the way through.
02:11:35
Speaker
Despite her excitement for it, I still just couldn't get into them. I get it. it's yeah yeahre They're fine. It's something about Woody Harrelson and Jesse Eisenberg just should not be in the same movie ever.
02:11:48
Speaker
Unless it's Zombieland.
02:11:52
Speaker
Even then, that works because of the contrast. i know why Now you see me, it's not... Okay, I got you. Yeah, you're right. Anyway, continue. In fourth place, and one of my favorite entries in one of my favorite franchises is Fast and Furious 6.
02:12:07
Speaker
You do love those movies, like unironically. And it's really, it's it's not something, like if you didn't know that about you, Stephen, it's not something someone would guess about you.
02:12:19
Speaker
And here's the thing. I have our our good friend Sam Azumas to thank for my love of those films because he's the one that wants me to watch them. I was actually, was actually. He's coming back before the end of the year. He's doing what now?
02:12:31
Speaker
He's coming back to the podcast before the end of the year. Wait, let me timestamp this so I can bleep it, but for what episode? ah we are He's coming back for the... remake.
02:12:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah, we did talk about that. We talked about that last time he was on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for the Zatouichi movie. Zatouichi remake. Yeah, yeah, that was a good one.
02:12:55
Speaker
That a good one? No, that movie wasn't a good... No, that movie sucked, but that episode was a good one is what I'm saying. That's that's what I'm also saying. Right, no, I'm agreeing with you. um In fifth place, um down from number one, from from four to one, yikes, what a top.
02:13:12
Speaker
In its second weekend, it's the original the Purge, which actually talked about on the pod and the pendulum. Go listen to my- That's all right, it though. It's good. Go listen to me talk about the pod and the pendulum.
02:13:26
Speaker
ah Our friend of the show, past and future guest Devon Taylor, said that my proposed ending for that film was ah like hilarious. and And I'm not going to repeat it here. I'll repeat it for Tucker after the recording.
02:13:39
Speaker
But listen to that episode of Potting the Pendulum on the the original Purge.
The Purge Films and Social Commentary
02:13:44
Speaker
um And also, if I can say, if you really like want be like upset and shitty with the way things are, at least in the United States of America right now, go go watch that most recent watch. Watch all those fucking purges where it takes place in Texas.
02:14:04
Speaker
And like the white nationalists are fucking killing Mexicans and shit. Watch that. Yep. Because um even like five years ago, that fucked me up.
02:14:16
Speaker
I don't honestly, I don't think I could like i I don't think I could watch it now because I would get like too upset. I'm right there with you, man. ah Rounding out the top 10 and number six, you've got the I think this is the Vince Vaughn, Owen Wilson film, The Internship.
02:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, where they work for Google. I don't think anybody cares about that. Like, good for them. I hope they made money on it, but who gives a shit? Probably not. In seventh place, future episode of this podcast, Epic.
02:14:44
Speaker
Wait, that's that animated shit. yeah I own that on Vudu. Of course you do. but Stephen! Steven, look, y'all motherfuckers don't even have to pay to rent this. You don't have to stream it anywhere.
02:14:57
Speaker
You don't have to pay for a subscription. Your boys got it on voodoo. Understood. Sorry, Fantango at Home as what it's called now. it'll it Just like Deer Creek, Steven, it'll always be voodoo to me.
02:15:11
Speaker
right there with you, man. I'll just start calling it Deer Creek. There it is. It's on my Deer Creek, man. It's on Deer Creek account. Yeah, dude. Hop on to my deer creek and you can watch Epic. placed the bottom rung of Star Trek films, Star Trek Into Darkness.
02:15:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I didn't even go to that one. That's how you know like you're tired and you're done. I did not even go. yeah The last one I saw in theaters and after that I was like, you know what? Done.
02:15:36
Speaker
However, in its fifth week it has earned over $200 million. dollars Good for them, though. like We always love a Trek win. oh yeah. For sure. 100%. In ninth place, past episode of this podcast, After Earth, Will Smith trying to force his son into superstardom.
02:15:53
Speaker
Did watch that? You did. We recorded an episode on that last year. Look, i don't remember I don't remember it at all. And not because... Steven, it's weird.
02:16:04
Speaker
I was on the internet the other day, and I read this article that said that ah frequent and consistent use of marijuana can affect the... You've been raising up for the past half an hour.
02:16:18
Speaker
It's okay. I have a window open. Okay. okay And I'm on the east wing So I'm good um don't know But I read I couldn't believe this I couldn't believe this But marijuana Actually negative effect negatively affects your memory function Can you believe that
Humor and Film Details
02:16:37
Speaker
Steven? I refuse to believe that you believe that I will tell you Tucker There are episodes of this podcast I do not remember recording No but after Earth That's Will Smith You know I love I love the Fresh Prince. That was part of our our Will Smith theme month where we had our, again, I do maybe. Devon was there for Hancock. Yeah, that was a good episode. but After Earth, we talked about Wild Wild West.
02:17:00
Speaker
I do love Hancock and hate Hancock at the same time, but I'm also like i'm drawn to it. I do love that movie. You do. Boy, I tell you what.
02:17:12
Speaker
Anyway, what was the next? Wild Wild West. We're going straight to the world. And rounding out the top ten, we've got Iron Man 3. Shane Black's Iron Man 3.
02:17:25
Speaker
So there's that. I didn't love or hate. It was just like, whatevs. I didn't like Commander-in, but yeah. Look, it it pushed the story forward. I actually did because like i that's another one of those things where I'm just not precious about it. I don't care.
02:17:44
Speaker
The fact that they turned like a huge fucking A-tier, S-tier villain.
Iron Man 3: The Mandarin Controversy
02:17:51
Speaker
But yeah. The fact that that's such a subversion of expectations for anybody that's read the comics or anything.
02:17:59
Speaker
And like, I can't, I can't deny, like I said, I'm all about contrast, dude. And subversion of expectations is a big part of that. So if you can make me think one thing is happening because of what I know, like from the comics or whatever. And if you can completely turn that on its head without me knowing you're going to do it, like more fucking power to you.
02:18:23
Speaker
Good for you, Ben Kingsley. like You knocked it out of the park. We all love you. And then he came back for the 10 rings. And he was great in that. He served a different purpose. He was the silly boy in that. He's going to be back for the Action Man series. e Good.
02:18:39
Speaker
like He's coming back for that, too. He's not the Mandarin. like I recognize he is not the Mandarin. like Fuck that. But I do love his Mandarin.
Man of Steel: Critical Reception
02:18:52
Speaker
is what i'm saying Trevor Slattery The Tomatometer score for Man of Steel Is a 57% That's fair, very polarizing Man of Steel's exhilarating action and spectacle Can't overcome its detours into generic Blockbuster territory ah the meta actually would take that as a compliment You would The Metascore is a 55% Based on 47 mixed or average reviews from critics And, Tucker, would you care to guess the letterbox score for Man of Steel?
02:19:26
Speaker
Why, yes, Stephen. i think that it might be between 2.9 and 3.4. Wow, you really made that believable. It is 3.0, Tucker. Well done.
02:19:42
Speaker
of the two of us, you tell... can't believe I've done this. You can tell which of us is the actor. succeeded. I succeeded. Good for me. And yet we both have IMDB credit in the wild.
02:19:57
Speaker
Yes.
02:19:59
Speaker
It is a 3.0 for Man of Steel as the current letterbox score. So well done. Fell right within the right, and right, right in the goalpost there. ah In fairness, that is what you guessed the first time before your recording screwed up.
02:20:15
Speaker
But yes. um since I don't know what you're talking about. Since we're being honest about all this stuff today. um It's such a patchwork of an episode, really. It kind of is, yeah.
02:20:26
Speaker
At least we got this recorded on the same night. Tucker, out of five stars, how are you ranking Man of Steel? This is a solid 3.5. this is a solid three point five Because I understand the qualms people have with this movie, and they are valid, but I don't give a shit.
02:20:55
Speaker
Which tracks. um whereas i So we are at a 3.5. Can I guess yours, Stephen? Go for it. Can I guess yours? Stephen's going to give it a 2. No, I'm giving it 3.
02:21:08
Speaker
Really? Okay. That's not what I got from like how we, I mean, don't You did say that like, it you had always implied that it was a well-made film. You just disagreed with the portrayal of the character that you kind of had some fresh thoughts about. Yeah. There there are elements of this film that I really do deeply enjoy. And again, Michael Shannon's performance is among them. looks monkey fantastic. It's a good looking movie. Most of the time.
02:21:32
Speaker
ah Again, when everything's not completely washed out. I love the performances. When everything's not completely CGI. Right. I like, i for good or ill, I like what Cavill is trying to do with the character.
02:21:45
Speaker
i love the fact that we get a cougar Lois Lane. Like a Lois Lane who's like older than Clark Kent and like fucking Macken on it. Fucking A. Love that. um yeah there are There are things about this movie that I really do enjoy, and a lot of it is performance-based. I really respect the actors in this movie.
02:22:02
Speaker
Lawrence Fishburne is very white. Cavill gets the Spirit Award. He's... Wow. like If you don't have Cavill in this, it doesn't really work. like With what I heard from the other choices, I don't think... I couldn't see anybody but Cavill given this kind of effort and getting this kind of result.
02:22:21
Speaker
Right. And I mean, we... we Again, for for good or ill, this is the movie we ended up with. Whether or not, you know, is it the best adaptation? Fucking no. Absolutely not.
02:22:32
Speaker
Is it the one we wanted? Is no is it the one we deserved? Probably. probably Probably. We had it coming. We really did. And honestly, after 2016, it's probably the version we deserve to be quite honest with you. Absolutely, yes.
02:22:47
Speaker
Give us two more Man of Steels right now. za Let's go. a Fucking God. And I mean, look, there is there's still... don't think he can do it anymore, there's honestly. there's I mean, Christopher McQuarrie has said that he pitched a Cavill Man of Steel sequel in 2018, which he called a good script.
Potential Sequel for Man of Steel
02:23:06
Speaker
that the...
02:23:07
Speaker
That the usual suspect writer, Way of the Gun director guy? Yep, that's your guy. can't wait till we watch about Way of the Gun. But anyway, yeah. Wow, okay. Is that ah going to be a straight It's going to be a straight up.
02:23:20
Speaker
I mean, it could be main feed. they could i ah If it had made enough money, they would have made a sequel. oh it's not It's not like it... It doesn't... It doesn't, like...
02:23:31
Speaker
you know... It doesn't leave itself open for a sequel, but if it had made enough money, the Hollywood would have figured out a way to make it. It doesn't leave itself open for a sequel, but it doesn't not leave itself open for a sequel. I understand.
02:23:46
Speaker
It just kind of... It's the end of that story, and, like, if you wanted to do another movie with some of those characters, cool. Mm-hmm. And if it had made enough money, they definitely would have, but, like, I cannot wait to cover that movie. That is...
02:24:02
Speaker
Something else. But yeah, no, like but Corey said earlier this year that he had had pitched a movie to Warner Brothers, but still said that, you know, the door might be open through the DC Elseworlds label for him and Cavill to try something else later on down the line. And so he's not giving up hope on a sequel to this movie, but we have, which is why we're covering it.
02:24:22
Speaker
Honestly, it would be so rad if we had because you know how you have that you have another Batman
02:24:30
Speaker
The like there's Robert Pattinson Batman. Yeah, the Matthew Vaughn Batman. There's going to be a main universe Batman, but the Robert Pattinson Batman is still like an Elseworlds Batman.
02:24:43
Speaker
So I would love at some point maybe to maybe we do a Kingdom Come with the Snyderverse. Henry Cavill, Affleck, those guys. feel like on some level that's where Snyder was going based on that weird...
02:24:59
Speaker
We live in a society scene at the end of the Justice League cut. So quickly, Snyder is moving through the big beats of like 70 years of comic book history in like three movies.
02:25:16
Speaker
Without understanding any of them. Exactly. But somehow still he makes a very fucking entertaining film. For a certain subset of the worst people on the internet and Tucker.
02:25:28
Speaker
I'm not the worst. And also me. No, i I separate you. You're in your own category. but Aside from those people, b
02:25:41
Speaker
But I think but that, Tucker, is our episode on 2013's Man of Steel. We did it! And again, our longest episode in recent memory. this This rivals the length of the movie itself, I think.
02:25:55
Speaker
And I would say that this is, there's not a lot of tangents here. If there are any tangents, they are very close to, like, like it's a Superman movie, maybe we're talking about Batman for a minute. Not far af, you know, really not. We, we... yeah We did our job. We stayed on topic this episode, which focus for an episode for for a podcast that is pretty much rained by wherever the wind blows. We the fact that we were able to keep it this tight for this long is something to be sure.
02:26:27
Speaker
I didn't believe in miracles before, Stephen, but i I do now. I didn't until I saw that Kurt Russell movie about the Olympic hockey team. And then I believed in miracles because Bob Costas asked me if I did.
02:26:40
Speaker
And at that point, I did. But that having been said, you can find us, the Disenfranchised Podcast. Obviously, you found us wherever you find your podcast. If you find your podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please leave us a five-star rating and review.
02:26:56
Speaker
That would go a long way to helping us find more listeners like yourselves. And honestly, we think you're pretty cool. So more people like you probably also be pretty cool. You can shoot us an email, distantfranchpod gmail.com. Let us know some future failed franchise starters you'd like to see us cover.
02:27:12
Speaker
ah in that we've we This is our 238th episode, so I'm sure there's others. That's lot of episodes. a lot episodes. Tucker, we've been doing this for almost five full years. We're coming up on the end of our fifth season of this podcast.
02:27:27
Speaker
At this point, we have more episodes than we do consistent listeners. That's true. Which is something to be proud of. That's... We're doing this... That's work ethic. We're doing this because we love to do it, not because people are listening to us and clamoring for more.
02:27:46
Speaker
We'll just say... Well, for me, it's like... Just even if like a hundred people... like want to listen to me like bullshit for two hours? like Fucking yeah, let's do it. 100 people? that's That's a lot of people. do i don't even know that many people. I do it because I like to talk to my friends.
Upcoming Content and Social Media Presence
02:28:06
Speaker
And honestly, if people want to listen to me talk to my friends for a couple hours at each week...
02:28:11
Speaker
It's the added bonus. Look, it's the it's the gore in Dawn of the Dead. Dawn of the Dead would be a perfect movie even without the gore. But because it's there, it's the whipped cream and cherry on top.
02:28:23
Speaker
I'm going to be talking about Dawn of the Dead next week with the Pot and the Pendulum. Really? You want to get in on that? I might. ah what I mean, if if if that's an invitation, i might. I have a lot to say about that movie. I'll run it by Mike. um he Although the last time I did float your name, he said he didn't want to be insulted on his own podcast again.
02:28:43
Speaker
Well, I mean, you know what? yes You say stupid shit, you get stupid responses. i don't know what to tell you, man. like We're friends here. like We're just having a good time. And it's all it's all in good fun.
02:28:58
Speaker
So I will, I'll, I'll, I'll float it. I'll float it in the, I'll float it in the slack. Uh, the pod and pendulum VHS episode of pod, the pendulum and see if you can spot where I offended said person.
02:29:10
Speaker
Past and future guest friend of the show are our perennial Valentine's day date. Mike's noon. Oh, we do love him. i do love. I do love having him on. He's the best. He's the best. I fucking love And honestly, i think at least half of our listenership is due to the fact that I got involved with the Pod and the Pendulum. I feel like I owe a lot of our success to Mike.
02:29:34
Speaker
ah Because I don't think we'd have found quite the audience that we would have found if not for Mike and Pod and the Pendulum. And I've said that to us. I say that every time he's on, actually. And he always... Well, and the fact that you're on there all the time, like, that just... Yeah. yeah He always demurs, but it's absolutely true. Regardless of whether or not he chooses to believe it, it's 100% true.
02:29:54
Speaker
um You can find us on the social media, it's at disenfranchpod. I think we're on Blue Sky YouTube and Letterboxd, and that's it. We don't update any of the others. So if you follow us on Instagram or Twitter, we're definitely not using those platforms anymore because...
02:30:11
Speaker
The leaders of those platforms are ah bootlicking toadies, and we do not respect them. So Blue Sky Letterboxd, YouTube, at disenfranchepod.
02:30:23
Speaker
ah You can hit our Patreon up. We have the official conversation of the Disenfranchised Podcast, patreon.com slash disenfranchepod. For absolutely no money, you can join the official conversation, which is to say you can comment. Completely. And usually, Tucker or I will respond in some form or fashion ah to what you have to say on the main feed episodes. you Also, if you want to spend a little extra money, five bucks a month, you get access to our back catalog of da deep, deep cuts.
02:30:53
Speaker
Including the aforementioned Oops All Christianity Corner on ah Kevin Smith's 1999 film Dogma. That's a good one. Wasn't that like our first Oops All Christianity Corner? That was the first All Christianity And then we did, what, Last Temptation of Christ? ah Yeah, and I feel like we've done one other one.
02:31:11
Speaker
I've got a lot of films I want to cover for Ups of Christianity, Gordon. We should probably do another one of those sometime soon. I feel like that, like, Last Temptation of Christ... We did The Exorcist, too. We did The Exorcist. William Friedman. Oh, yeah. that was That wasn't as compelling as I thought it would be.
02:31:25
Speaker
But um i have The Last Temptation... um I did, too, but just not as, like... I didn't you know but last temptation of Christ I feel like we should do that like every couple years we should just revisit that in the Christianity corner because there's so much going on there I mean there's so many other movies to cover like we could cover I know gotta do left behind and then the other left behind left behind is an oops all Christianity corner we cover on the main feed and because that was a failed franchise starter yes please kill two birds right exactly
02:32:02
Speaker
That is two collections at the Patriot. It is um But yeah, patreon.com slash just in French pod hit us up either at the free or $5 level. We would love to have you at either subscription level.
02:32:15
Speaker
ah You can find me your host. Hi, I'm Steven Foxworthy. You can find me on a letterbox or blue sky at chewy walrus. You can find our absent cohost, Brett, right?
02:32:27
Speaker
um if he, the side. So join us again at sus underscore warlock on letterboxd and letterboxd only. Tucker, where can we find you on the socials these days?
02:32:39
Speaker
I'm still on Instagram. You're the one. I'm the only one. I'm also on YouTube. ah Both those places you can find me at ice909. That's I-C-E-N-I-N-E, the number zero and the number nine. Also, tuckmugs, tuck underscore mugs, also on Instagram. but We had a ah new post.
02:33:06
Speaker
We did. Something happened the other day. a post was made. And it was almost like it was two photos, but it was two posts.
02:33:18
Speaker
Because Brett had his origin story for the image that was on this mug. And that was also an image i was familiar with in my childhood.
02:33:31
Speaker
in a different context. So like you get like two times the tuck mugs post in one post, you get two stories, two origin stories,
02:33:42
Speaker
it's I mean, it's probably the best Tuck Mugs post that has happened so far. Not to be hyperbolic or anything, but... No, but just because of how much is there. the content is there.
Anticipation for Fantastic Four Movie
02:33:56
Speaker
It's two photos. One photo of the cup. A second photo of the cup in the dark, glowing. It's a glow in the darkt a dark. In the dark. It glows.
02:34:07
Speaker
Travel. Listener. Cup. It glows in cup. It straight up glows. Straight it just happens. It just so happens that the art on that cup is the art from the Ghostbusters board game from like 1986, which I owned.
02:34:26
Speaker
And I obsessed over that art. That was the best Ghostbusters shit ever. for a while it sustained me that was my ghostbusters art that's it so yeah there's a couple different stories for that most recent tuck mugs also i've got some new mugs i've got some new pint glasses i've got some new shot glasses So now that I feel a little more comfortable being on Instagram as like a beacon of wholesomeness and goodness in a hellscape that is Instagram.
02:35:11
Speaker
Like, I feel like I want to get some of that shit out. i understand. So expect some shit from Tuckmugs.
02:35:22
Speaker
If you are not following Tuckmugs on Instagram. How fucking dare you not, first of If you have abandoned Instagram, good for you.
02:35:33
Speaker
Go, like, re-download Instagram, unfollow everything but Tuckmugs.
02:35:43
Speaker
Turn on notifications. Fam. it's like It's like a TuckMugs app, almost. If you only follow that account. I was going to say, if that's the only account you're following, yeah, it becomes a TuckMugs app, pretty much. yeah It's the most... like And everybody's invited.
02:36:02
Speaker
like If you're someone with questionable like political views, like come on. Come on over here and look at my mugs. And maybe... The community will make you feel so wholesome that you won't be a jackass anymore. And if it doesn't, fuck right the fuck off.
02:36:24
Speaker
Yeah, that that too. Give it a try is all I'm saying. Tuck Mugs is for everyone.
02:36:34
Speaker
It is for everyone. Because it's literally just mugs. And pint glasses and shot glasses. It's not... Yeah. Tuck underscore mugs.
02:36:46
Speaker
Instagrams. Go there now. There it is. And that, friends, is our episode on 2013's Man of Steel. Tune in for the next two weeks for episodes on fucking Fantastic Four movies because that's a movie that's coming out.
02:37:04
Speaker
Boy, howdy. Are we fucking excited about that? Probably the two worst Fantastic Four adaptations. Not that there have been many good ones. Are we doing the 94 win first? yep or the ah Chronological order, sir. Chronological order always.
02:37:19
Speaker
Steven, can you believe that I have been putting off watching that movie for over 30 years? Tucker? Sam.
02:37:30
Speaker
I can't live and i can't even can't even say anything different. Absolutely 100% Look, the bootleg was available at Comic Carnival. I could have purchased it in 1996. Yep.
02:37:42
Speaker
But I didn't, because why the fuck would I? I still have a bootleg VHS of old Plastic Man cartoons that I got from Comic Carnival. You know what? My first exposure to the Clerks animated series was a bootleg from Comic Carnival.
02:37:56
Speaker
Man, we'll talk about the Comic Carnival bootlegs next week. Let's please talk about the... The central Indiana comic book scene. Look, there's thing there. In the late 90s, early aughts.
02:38:09
Speaker
Please, let me. Because we were both part of it. Plus, my brother-in-law was like, ran the East Side comic carnival. You, me, and Brett all went to the same comic book store at various points.
02:38:24
Speaker
Wait, should we get my brother-in-law in on this? Because he was selling that bootleg. Ask him Ask him if he wants to join. If he wants to join, we'll have him on. he He ran that comic carnival.
02:38:36
Speaker
The east side one. The one there at Cherry Tree. Ask him. Legitimately. Until it closed. If he wants to be on, we'll have him on. we'll We'll figure out a way to get him in on the record. Absolutely. 100%.
02:38:48
Speaker
Because that's the only way that's the only way I knew about that, was going to Comic Carnival to get my shit and seeing that bootleg. And I'm like, wait, what? Roger Corman?
02:38:58
Speaker
Yeah. Like, what what is this? And like I read about in other places subsequently. and We're going to talk about it next week. yeah Again, it's one of those that I'm not sure if fits our format, but we're going to fucking talk about it because it never got a sequel. So we're going to talk about it.
02:39:13
Speaker
I'm excited to see it. like It's something that I've always kind of has been on my list, but I've never really gotten to. Same. And honestly, i kind of want to watch all... I would love to watch all the Supermans and all the the Fantastic Fours before those movies come out.
02:39:29
Speaker
Here's the thing. I'm probably not going to see Fantastic Four in theaters. I'm probably not. I want to see Superman in theaters. I probably won't see Fantastic Four in theaters. Steven, can I admit something to you? I've never seen a Fantastic Four film.
02:39:40
Speaker
Wow. Well, you're going to two most of them over the course of the next two weeks. And here's the thing. this You're probably going to see the worst two. Oh, boy. Despite my exposure to the bootleg of the Corman version, I had no interest in it. I had never purchased it.
02:39:56
Speaker
i don't blame him Like, when the when the Chris Evans, Jessica Alba version came out, I just didn't care. like i didn't give a shit about Fantastic Four. understand. I understood why it was important in Marvel Comics, but that wasn't Marvel Comics. Like, comic book movies weren't where they are...
02:40:15
Speaker
now so like when that came out i was like i don't know we'll put it in its proper context next week when we talk about it we absolutely will talk about it in its proper context but again that's a next week conversation not a right now that's so far away ah several hours away it' so many hours several hours
Conclusion and Humorous Exchange
02:40:35
Speaker
eight down uh so that is our episode on the 2013 film man of steel until next week when we dig into another comic book property uh uh this has been the disenfranchised podcast for my co-host tucker for the absent brett wright and for myself steven foxworthy until next time save martha why did you say that name steven
02:41:01
Speaker
i It just, i don't know. It just kind of came to me. Why did you say the name? No, i just, I don't understand. Why did you say the name? You need to save. Why did you say the name? Shut up! Shut the fuck Why did you say the name?