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254 - Return to Oz (1985)
52 Plays19 days ago
“Where did Kansas go?”
With Wicked: For Good in theaters this weekend, we’re also returning to Oz with this mid-eighties Gen X/Millennial shared fever dream of a film! Join us as we discuss Orson Welles and The Brain, Tucker’s unspoken adoration of old-time radio and Mark Twain, and this film's failed attempts at capturing the magic of the 1939 classic!
Catch us defying gravity, social mores, and do much more in the following platforms:
- @Disenfranchpod on Bluesky, Letterboxd, and YouTube.
- Email us your thoughts or requests to disenfranchpod@gmail.com
- Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify!
- Find Stephen at @ChewyWalrus on Bluesky and Letterboxd.
- Check out Stephen’s podcast with friend of the show Hope Stough - Welles University - on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever podcasts are sold!
- Find Tucker at @icenine09 on YouTube and Instagram and @tuck_mugs on Instagram.
- Join our Patreon for exclusive bonus content, including bi-weekly episodes of What Are We Watching? at https://patreon.com/Disenfranchpod
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Transcript
Introduction to the Disenfranchised Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
I'll say good for you.
00:00:22
Speaker
There's no place like the disenfranchised podcast where that podcast all about those franchises of one, those films that fancy themselves full-fledged franchises before falling flat on their face.
Meet the Hosts: Stephen and Tucker
00:00:32
Speaker
After the first film, I am your host, Stephen Foxworthy. And joining me as always, I've heard it said that people come into our lives for a reason.
00:00:41
Speaker
We're still trying to figure out the reason for Tucker. Oh, I your name. Holy shit, Steven. You know what it is You know what it is. i did a recording this morning with with friend of the show, J.P. Lack. he's all like... du two Yeah, he uses the first name with impunity. So my apologies. J-bombs everywhere. Holy shit. I can't believe I did that. I am surprised at myself, honestly. I'm surprised you didn't throw my middle name in there. She's like, you i don't know that my mother's talking to me or something. What? Come on, man. Am I in trouble?
00:01:15
Speaker
I don't think I know your middle name, to be fair to be really fair. But i I am sorry for dropping your first name. holy i I'm embarrassed for myself, honestly.
00:01:26
Speaker
But the litter may have had something to do with it, but yeah. like As you were saying it, I saw yeah your face. You were like, oh, I did the thing. i was like, oh my god, I can't believe I just did that.
00:01:38
Speaker
It's okay, I'll bleep it out. Oh, I know you will. And that cough, actually. mean, you just do the cough, but yeah. Steven, can I tell you, I had a doozy of a day.
00:01:52
Speaker
And i can't but I can't imagine I made it any better just now. ah No, I mean, it's i i'll it's it's a quick edit. Like, as long as you don't drop any or
00:02:13
Speaker
Here's, I have another, i have another, like, how do we feel about the the, like, how do we feel on that? Is that something that's going to get beeped out if I mention it or?
00:02:25
Speaker
ah I want to just because, ah like, I don't know. That's what hear about all day. Like, fuck, man. I don't come to podcast and like, I want to be in our own little bubble. Like, i don't want talk about that shit.
00:02:39
Speaker
Okay, you can believe that. mean, look, you edit this thing however you want. You're going to do what you're going to We'll add it to the list. We'll add it to the list. And here's the thing. i can't imagine that's something to bring up a whole bunch because you, but, you know, it's it's relevant at the time we're recording, so...
00:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, just keep keep it all in the first three minutes here. And like that's great for me. Because then all i have to do is like I have to go through the first three minutes and then I slap the end song on the end and I'm off to the races.
00:03:09
Speaker
There we go. There we
Exploring 'Return to Oz' and its Relation to 'The Wizard of Oz'
00:03:11
Speaker
go. yeah um But yeah, Tucker, ah there's a new Wicked movie out this weekend. Wicked colon for good. And so we are we're covering another episode.
00:03:25
Speaker
Speciously unrelated sequel to L Frank or to the ah Victor Fleming's 1939 classic The Wizard of Oz. We are today talking about Walter Murch's 1985 Gen x millennial fever dream classic.
00:03:41
Speaker
Return to Oz, um directed by Walter Murch, written by Walter Murch and Gil Dennis, and ah starring Fay Rooza Bulk, baby, baby Fay Rooza Bulk in this movie, ah Nichol Williamson, Gene Marsh, Sophie Ward, Fiona Victory, Piper Laurie, her of Twin Peaks fame, Matt Clark, Emma Ridley, Justin Case. What a name.
00:04:05
Speaker
What a name on that guy. Yeah. Yeah. ah I mean, just in case, but just in case, like that's hilarious. Denise Breyer, Sean Barrett, Brian Henson. Yes, that Brian Henson. Deep Roy. Yes, that Deep Roy. ah Lyle Conway, Ponsmar.
00:04:25
Speaker
What a cast, Tucker, dare I say. What a picture. A stone cold classic, Steven. a stone cold classic. And I love me some Matt Clark. um Of course, I first... Yeah, you do. That ah really tracks, yeah.
00:04:42
Speaker
I first um saw him in Back to the Future Part 3 where he is the bartender. Yes. I think that is where I also first saw him. He just likes to look at it.
00:04:54
Speaker
ah Joey, let's make some wake-up juice. Yes. Yes.
Actors and Film Franchises: Matt Clark and Sam Elliott
00:05:02
Speaker
Around here, we serve whiskey. But also plays the Secretary of Defense in The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai across the Eighth Dimensions, our previous episode on the so all that. Thank you for sending the entire title, Stephen. Thank you.
00:05:15
Speaker
ah But i had some other Matt Clark credits, he's ah Pat Garrett and the Billy the Kid, Jeremiah Johnson, where the Robert Redford nodding and smiling meme comes from, and also future episode of this podcast, ah The Legend of the Lone Ranger from 1981. He plays the sheriff in that movie.
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, I don't i have I haven't seen any of that stuff. Outlaw Josie Wales, ah The Driver, the Walter Hill film, The Driver, which is fucking awesome.
00:05:46
Speaker
They made a third house movie? Oh, yes, sir. You mean House 3? Yes. Oh, House 3. He's in some like dad movies, so dad TV movies. Like you've got Kenny Rogers as The Gambler Part 3, The Legend Continues. Oh, my God. He's in a lot of Part 3s. Man Back to the Future 3, House 3, Kenny Rogers, The Gambler 3.
00:06:10
Speaker
uh that's a lot of threes man um what's the other one i saw candy man pulling farewell to the flesh not the thornberries what's the one about the civil war that dad's like lonesome dove he's in the lonesome oh yes mom's like it too if you have if you have boomer parents you probably know what lonesome dove is He's also in The Quick and the Dead, not the Sam Raimi one, but the one with Sam Elliott. Yeah. yeah
00:06:41
Speaker
Oh, we like him, though. Yeah, we do like Sam Elliott. Although he is he was a little bit of ah a B-I-T-C-H about ah Jane Campion's The Power of the Dog, which is a fucking great movie.
00:06:53
Speaker
Word. Word. Word. Oh, word. I don't know anything about that. It's good. You should check it out. And one of his very first film credits is in the Academy Award winning film, In the Heat of the Night.
00:07:05
Speaker
Hey, that's got that song and they made that show. hu The show's got a Carol Reed. Not Carol. You know, I can't Carol O'Connor, Carol O'Connor.
00:07:16
Speaker
So I can't believe that I haven't seen in the heat of the night because I feel like I know so much about it and I've seen most everything that Sidney Poitier has done. It such seems like such a weird blind spot, you know?
00:07:30
Speaker
And it's one of mine too, to be fair. It is one of mine. we should watch it. and We should watch it. We should. And maybe record a Patreon episode on it. Maybe. You never know. Maybe. I mean, who's to say?
00:07:42
Speaker
Not me. Stranger Things has five seasons.
Discussing 'Stranger Things' and Its Future
00:07:46
Speaker
I mean, have happened. Stranger Things have happened. yeah sort Six of one, honestly. ah are you Are you also not excited about the fifth season of Stranger Things? Or is it am the only one?
00:07:58
Speaker
I kind of want it to be over. I did um i' see way my time about it enjoy my time. I enjoyed my time with the first part. um There were a couple things I really liked about it. Overall, I'm just kind of waiting for it to be over so i don't have to worry about it anymore.
00:08:15
Speaker
I mean, i honestly, I was late to the party on season four, and I was fine with that. i was okay with that. Well, Well, this is part two of season five, though. Like part one of season five is that's the last thing we got.
00:08:31
Speaker
What the hell? fire And all that. That's season five, part one. And then what we're getting. get season five part one Yes, that's with the D&D group and the the guy with the guitar. And we all liked him. And it turns out he's like British or Australian or something.
00:08:45
Speaker
That was season four, part two. No, you, you bush it in me, Steven. You better look that short. I'm looking it up right now. So Steven, Steven's looking it up right now.
00:08:55
Speaker
um And you know, what's weird is until, until I watched this movie for this podcast, I didn't realize Matt Clark was uncle Henry because I didn't recognize his voice, which is weird because he has that warble. Sometimes um the Pat, but he had the big beard and I just, I never realized that was him.
00:09:14
Speaker
I never, never noticed. Tucker, i don't know if you can see that, but it says right there, season five premieres November 26th. Oh, I thought the last thing we got was ah part one of season five. Season four, part two.
00:09:32
Speaker
ah Brace yourself, Steven. Everybody hold your breath for a moment while I say I was wrong. Wow. Yeah. yeah Can we isolate that and get that on the soundboard?
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you I don't wouldn't use it much. But it's just nice to have. It's it's nice to know I can admit when I'm wrong, Steven. It is it for all of us, really.
00:09:59
Speaker
That shows real maturity, integrity. I'm not sure why you're saying it then, but I'm glad you are. Well, I still haven't taken this shot,
Stephen's Childhood and Theater Experiences
00:10:10
Speaker
Steven. I can't believe that. um While I'm taking the shot, would you like to tell us your history with this film that we watched? Oh,
00:10:18
Speaker
Right. So i this is kind of a film I've known of more than I've known it. um Of course, as with everyone, I grew up watching the original ve Victor Fleming, Wizard of Oz, on the TV every Easter when it used to air.
00:10:34
Speaker
on on Was it Easter? were you I think it was Easter. Now it's Christmas. Is it Christmas? I never understand. That and Sound of Music are Christmas movies. There's nothing about Christmas in them, but...
00:10:46
Speaker
that It's just you watch them at Christmas because I guess it's like a cute family movie or some shit. And there's songs. I mean, I own the original Wizard of Oz. actually played Victor Fleming in a play once, which is why I can pull that director's name like that. was I did a play one once upon a time back in 2012. Je Boyd did a play called Moonlight Magnolias at Spotlight Players in Beach Grove, Indiana.
00:11:14
Speaker
Hey. And it's about it's this this story about the producer, the director and the screenwriter of Gone with the Wind locking themselves in a room to rewrite the script in a week in a long weekend, um eating nothing but peanuts and bananas.
00:11:31
Speaker
um And it's really, really funny. And I played Victor Fleming in that despite the fact that I look and am nothing like Victor Fleming. I grew a beard for the part, despite the fact that Victor Fleming did not have a beard because I needed to make myself look significantly older than I was. I was the youngest person in the cast and the oldest character on the stage. so Stephen played Victor Fleming 15 years old yeah 15 years old. Yes. 15 in 2012. Love to see that beard.
00:11:59
Speaker
Love to see it. No, the first time when I was a teenager and tried to grow a beard, a friend of mine was like, oh, are you are you like kind of like brushed her lip and went, are you trying to grow something here? And I went, fuck it, I'm done. she I don't know. of and I don't know if you've gazed upon the gloriousness that is my beard, but I couldn't grow anything that resembled even a passable beard until I was in my thirties, probably 35.
00:12:28
Speaker
I, the first time I grew a full beard was in college. I did it for a play and it was really kind of patchy, but I dyed the whole thing black. So it really showed up. Oh, that'll do it. And then ever since then, I've been able to grow a really great beard.
00:12:43
Speaker
My partner just doesn't like beards currently. So I don't have one. And great hair. Steven, you have great hair. What were you thinking ever like going bald on purpose? it's so You have fantastic hair.
00:12:56
Speaker
Thank you. It's so easy to maintain when I'm bald, though. and well Fuck you, man. I have wavy hair. Thick, wavy hair. Man, you got these beautiful flowing locks. I saw you in Circle City Supernatural, too, with that long-ass
Diving into 'Return to Oz': Characters and Themes
00:13:09
Speaker
hair.
00:13:10
Speaker
Boy, I was so jealous. I was like, damn, Steven, you just like get out of bed and it just kind of falls down like a Disney princess, you know? Fun fact. Fun fact about my hair in Circle City Supernatural 2. I started growing that for Circle City Supernatural 1.
00:13:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because you were totally bald then. I was totally bald. ah Joseph called me in April and was like, hey, I'm going to need you to have hair. And I was like, all right, I'll start now. And I started growing it. And then like shortly after the second one came out, he's like, oh, or the first one came out. He's like, oh, by the way, i'm going need you have long hair for the next one. i was like, OK, I'll just won't cut it And so I did not get it cut for for years until after that shoot was over. And then I think it was later on that year. it was like an October of that year because it was I filmed my part in like June of last year.
00:13:59
Speaker
I went to my cousins and she cut my hair for me. ah But and then I haven't I haven't really cut it since. So I've been growing it out for like another year since then. But yeah, it's beautiful. And you just it's it's a fantastic color. Steven, you get some gray in there, dude.
00:14:15
Speaker
That's going look good, dude. When I started growing it out, I had the Reed Richards, Hal Jordan temples. Like I had the gray on the temples. And then like, I don't, maybe I got less stressful or got healthier or something, but that went away. So I don't have that anymore, which bums me out. Cause I, as a kid, I remember really digging the Reed Richards, Hal Jordan, just the gray only in the temples. I really thought that was such a sweet look.
00:14:39
Speaker
It looks cool because like you're old, but like you still look cool. It's hip. It's old, but hip. Right. Big fan. 100%. Dude, yeah. But to kind of complete the circle, I had seen clips of this before on television, but he but I was always kind of weirded out by the fact that no other than Dorothy, there are no returning characters from the original film.
00:15:05
Speaker
Well, Toto him...
00:15:08
Speaker
okay but But they don't go on the adventure. No, I get it. Because you expect Dodo to go and you get a chicken instead. Right. You you get Bellina instead. Yeah, and I like Bellina. And I think Disney's trying really hard to kind of try to remind you of the original film while well completely pivoting on your expectations in every conceivable way. We'll talk about it. This is a very interesting film in my mind.
00:15:32
Speaker
i love And i I will argue intended to be a sequel to the original film, but for many reasons is not. And we'll get into that too I think – well, yeah, we'll get into it I'll tell you that. Yeah, we will we'll we'll talk about it. But yeah, so this is the first time I've watched it in its entirety straight through. i had seen chunks of it before. And ah Will Vinton, I want to shout him out, ah the guy who – behind Claymation, Claymation Christmas, the Noid commercials for Domino's, the guy who created the California Raisins is the –
00:16:09
Speaker
this the stop motion animator on this film or the head of the step motion animation department on this film. And so all of that shit looks fucking incredible.
00:16:20
Speaker
You go back, listen, listen to any episode where this movie is mentioned and it's been mentioned in a few episodes, ah mainly are um Oz, the great and powerful episode.
00:16:33
Speaker
right But any any episode where we mention this movie and you will hear me say that these are the best stop motion effects that I have ever seen in a feature film. So smooth. So smooth. Flawless.
00:16:48
Speaker
Fuck. ah i don't I think it's the peak. You can't do better than that. You could try. Probably with like computers. Like if you did a half-assed job.
00:17:00
Speaker
Like animating it physically and filling the gaps with computers, probably. I mean, but still it would look off probably. Henry Selick is a very good, competent, capable, i would say, like very good stop motion animator. I still think Will will Vinton can run circles around him.
00:17:20
Speaker
And again, like Henry Selick. I love Nightmare Before Christmas, a movie that we will actually never cover because Burton's in those sequels. Ooh, James the Giant Peach. James the Giant Peach. Coraline is um amazing. Coraline's so good.
00:17:34
Speaker
Wendell and Wilde. And of course, a movie of his we will cover on this podcast one day, Monkeybone. Oh, I love Monkeybone. It's such a bad movie, but I love Monkeybone. There's a lot going on in Monkeybone. Monkeybone is very
Potential Podcast Topics: 'Monkeybone' and Edgy Family Movies
00:17:48
Speaker
interesting. It's spirit.
00:17:49
Speaker
It's a bad movie, but damn it, it's got spirit. And you can't help. I can't help but fall in love with it every time I see it. Yeah, bad movie. Really fun. Very interesting. Lots to talk about there, too.
00:18:02
Speaker
I can't wait. I'm so stoked. That's soon, right? Is that soon? I feel like that's on the schedule soon. It's not. Or maybe I imagine maybe it was something else I was excited about. i don't know. We can throw it on. the That would be a good one to cover back to back with Cool World. Ralph Baxche's Cool World. Cool. Cool. Yeah. With Brad Pitt.
00:18:21
Speaker
bradt Brad Pitt and Gabriel Byrne and Kim Basinger. Kim Basinger. Thank you. I want to say Pamela Anderson for some reason. Nope. That's barbed wire. Another movie. We will cover it at some point. ah ah You're conflating barbed wire and stripper Ella, her cartoon show that Stan Lee.
00:18:40
Speaker
To take barbed wire. And if we're going to cover that, find a way to put that all the way at the bottom of the list so that we theoretically never have to cover it. Cause that movie is embarrassing for everybody involved. Now I kind of want to move it up. I'm not going to lie. Now I kind of want to put up the schedule.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah, well, me me being shitty about a movie is pretty entertaining sometimes. Is what I'm saying. But you know what movie I'm not shitty about? This movie that I saw when I was probably probably about 10 years old. We rented it from the video store because there were no new releases.
00:19:14
Speaker
And I was like, what the fuck is this? And it looked weird. And I talked my mom into it because she liked Wizard of Oz and shit. Right. And I watched it. How'd your mom How'd your mom feel about this movie?
00:19:27
Speaker
I don't know if She thought it was fine. Your sweet, sweet mother. I mean, she was she was used to like the family movies of the 80s and the 90s that did tend to be kind of terrifying in parts. you know that's kind of Family movies back then were a little edgy.
00:19:44
Speaker
So I don't think she was really that freaked out by it. But like it terrified me. Like, in the best way. um And eventually when it got re-released, because, you know, Disney doesn't really like this movie.
00:20:00
Speaker
So back in the days of physical media. pretty good reasons, honestly. Yeah, back in the days of physical media, like the copy they had at the video store was probably from the original release.
00:20:11
Speaker
Right. But it wasn't until like the mid-90s until they released it in the soft shell case. m And i finally got it. And i think.
00:20:22
Speaker
I was probably 13, 14 when I finally got it on VHS. And I've watched it a couple times a year ever since. Because it's just really, really special. And it's not it's not a movie that I really have to sit down and watch.
00:20:39
Speaker
I will fully admit that I fell asleep for about 20 minutes of this movie today when I was watching it. Not because it was boring or not because I don't love it, but because I know the spots where I can strategically slip in a tiny nap to I'm not going to miss anything that I really care about.
00:20:55
Speaker
Sure. um I may have not loved doing the dump construction scene, so, you know. And there's also, I do love this movie. To me, it's damn near a perfect movie, but they spend...
00:21:07
Speaker
way too much time. The finale is like the the back half of the movie. It's like a half an hour. They they they get to the Gnome King spot like halfway through the movie and they just fucking stay there.
00:21:21
Speaker
yeah And then they don't even start like going in to like look for the fucking artifacts until 30 minutes from the end. like it's very yeah It's very backfilled on this movie. And i enjoy I enjoy everything that happens in between there. It's it's just like I've seen it so many times. like I know when I can nod off.
00:21:41
Speaker
Like I know that in between the introduction of the wheelers and when tick tock takes them all out by spinning around, I can take a good five minute nap and I'd be all right. Yeah.
00:21:55
Speaker
You know, ah cause I know where the meat and potatoes is in this movie.
Tim Burton's Cinematic Style and 'Ed Wood'
00:22:00
Speaker
um Exactly. And it's, it, it, it's very, it's this, this movie is a fascinating study because it is trying very closely very carefully to hue as closely as possible to the original film while also giving you something that is so unlike the original film that it they may as well be two completely different franchises well i think that comes a lot from the fact that they kind of felt like they needed to connect it to the other film
00:22:34
Speaker
The only thing that connects it to the other film is well the ruby the rubies the ruby slippers. yeah And i don't know. like i don't really think they needed to do that.
00:22:48
Speaker
Everything else is a one-to-one parallel. like Dorothy is Dorothy, but then like Jack Pumpkinhead is the Scarecrow. TikTok is the Tin Man. The Gump is the Cowardly Lion. TikTok is Ron Swanson.
00:23:05
Speaker
TikTok is Ron Swanson. the first time I watched Parks and Rec, I was like, TikTok is a man. That's fantastic. That is incredible. ah The Gnome King is the wizard. Mambi is the Wicked Witch. The Wheelers are the flying monkeys. Like, everything else is an almost exact one-to-one. Now, the way that those they're employed is different. Mm-hmm.
00:23:27
Speaker
But you have those parallels and I think they exist for a reason in a way that I don't know that they were. Now, I will be very clear. I have not read the L. Frank Baum novels. I want to. I just have not done it. Alice, Lewis Carroll's Alice was always my girl.
00:23:41
Speaker
Like when it comes to the lost girl trope, like she was my lost girl. So I'm a huge Alice in Wonderland fan, have not engaged as much with The Wizard of Oz, would like to, should, need to, haven't. um But like, Elfrig Baum wrote a shit ton of books set in this world. Whether he wanted to or not.
00:24:00
Speaker
Correct, because it's the only thing he could fucking sell. Yes. Which is weird weirdly the same reason that ah Lewis Carroll ever wrote a sequel to Alice Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, was because he It was just kind of like, well, i okay i guess I'll write another. And then he wrote it That book, Alice Through the Looking Glass and what Alice found there is just a chess game.
00:24:22
Speaker
That whole that whole novel is just a chess game that he put a narrative around. Which I find hilarious. That's pretty fascinating, actually. So that's pretty cool.
00:24:35
Speaker
Right. I mean, we're not here to talk about that. But that's what I'm here to say. I don't. Is there an Alice movie that we could potentially cover at some point? i don't think there is. oh I don't know.
00:24:50
Speaker
i don't think so, because didn't they do like a direct to video sequel for the Disney one? Maybe. i know the Tim Burton one had sequel. Tim Burton one got a sequel that he was not involved in, except I think it's a producer.
00:25:04
Speaker
yeah Boy, talk about like horrifying CGI. like Another kid's movie that is just terrifying for completely different reasons. Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
00:25:17
Speaker
To this day, give me nightmares. Those some horrific fucking things. To say nothing of the Futterwhacken. Oh, why is it so ugly, Steven? Why? it that's On purpose?
00:25:31
Speaker
yeah It must be. Because here's the thing. like It's that Tim Burton aesthetic that i I find good to a point, and then he just leaned all the way into it, and I found it ridiculous. And it's just like not fun to look at. like it's like it's It's bad. you You don't want to look at it, is the problem.
00:25:48
Speaker
I dated for a while an artist um and she's still out there making stuff, but she like grew up really loving the Burton aesthetic. And so I'm like, well, that's just German expressionism.
00:26:01
Speaker
And she's like, yeah you know whatever you call it, I love it. And I'm like, that's great. Yeah. Fucking a Love Dr. Caligari. But like after like Beetlejuice and like Edward Scissorhands, he seems to get really high on his own supply. And the stuff that he comes out with that really leans into that aesthetic after that just feels performative in a way that late stage Burton really does. Like after up to a certain point, he's just kind of like doing Tim Burton.
00:26:31
Speaker
It's not because he wants to do it that way. It's like, I don't know. can How can we Burtonize this thing? Well, and with the weird exception to a certain extent being Ed Wood. Like he really he tones it down a lot in that one. It's still distinctly Burton-esque to coin a term. I don't think I can. I think it's been coined. I don't think you did. But um um it's certainly Burton-esque, but it's very subdued. It very, very subdued.
00:26:58
Speaker
It is his most grounded movie, which is why I think it is one of his best, if not his very best movie. i think it's his but I think it's his best looking movie too. He should do more films in black and white because that man knows how to shoot in black and white.
00:27:11
Speaker
He does. In a way that most modern filmmakers ah do not. It's good. It's real good. I want to watch Ed Wood right now. Bye Steven. I'm watching Ed Wood. See ya. okay wow I guess that's our episode on Return to Oz. um Let's go watch Ed Wood.
00:27:26
Speaker
Woo! Woo! um Be there.
00:27:32
Speaker
feels very similar to me to the tim burton alice in wonderland in that it is taking something with very established iconography whether or not that an iconography is from the book or not and twisting it and tearing it destroying it in effects in a way that sets gives the audience an immediate sense of unease um Like, and I find that incredibly
Walter Murch's Directorial Debut with 'Return to Oz'
00:28:00
Speaker
fascinating. This is Walter Murch's only ah film directing credit, by the way. This is the only and movie movie Walter Murch ever directed.
00:28:09
Speaker
That's too bad because I think I think it's a well-made film like this movie, like smacks you over the head with it as soon as as soon as it starts. It goes into fucked up territory. It's not it's not bearing the lead. It's like, look, this is what we're doing.
00:28:23
Speaker
We're going to chop this fucking kid like this is fucked up and it's kind of dark. So if if you're into that, buckle up, let's go. If not, you should probably fuck off right now. Like, he is – he's a three-time Academy Award-winning editor, like, he both sound and film editing. He won two for The English Patient and one for Apocalypse Now. And he's been nominated for several others besides. Like, he is – like, he was – George Lucas's guy on like THX 1138 or whatever that movie is called.
00:28:56
Speaker
Like he is George Lucas's original like sound editor. And so then through that, he did, he also did Francis Ford Coppola's The Rain People, um The Godfather, like he did sound on all of these movies.
00:29:10
Speaker
And then actually edited what I consider to be a one of another of Francis Ford Coppola's masterpieces, The Conversation. Like the man just has an incredible like depth to him. And then after this movie, he directs this movie in 1985 and then goes right back to editing again. Edits Unbearable Lightness of Being, Ghost, Godfather Part 3, House of Cards, the film, not the TV show, Kathleen Turner, Tommy Lee Jones movie.
00:29:40
Speaker
um like just goes right back to editing wins his second and third Oscar for Anthony Minghella's the English patient is the sound and film editor for that movie and Minghella's next film the talented Mr. Ripley K-19 the Widowmaker Cold Mountain like he edited previous film that we've covered on this podcast, the Wolfman. he's just like a renowned, renowned editor. Like it's one of the, it's one of these, he's one of these guys who like is working in the industry for so long to such great acclaim that they're like, we should let you direct a movie. And then he does. And everyone's like, okay, don't do that again.
00:30:22
Speaker
Like in this is that movie. Have you seen this, Steven? You heard about this? Apparently in 1998, He re-edited Touch of Evil. yeah I actually have that re-edit on my shelf back here. Oh, word. Can I borrow it? I'll borrow you the original if you borrow me the re-edit.
00:30:40
Speaker
i Here's the thing. The version that I have has three different edits. It has the theatrical edit. It has the the re-edited, like the the original edit. So it's got the theatrical, the original edit, like what existed of it. And then it the Walter Murch restoration, which is kind of as close to a director's cut on that one as we're going to get. But no, I have three different edits of that movie.
00:31:04
Speaker
Dude, i want to so I don't think I've seen that because mine is just... The regular. They're all up. They're all up. them i've ever seen when I can share the link. Oh, fuck. No, I got the link. Believe me, I got the link.
00:31:17
Speaker
Use the fucking link. It has all three of them on there. Yes, dude. And I've got like multiple edits of like Orson Welles as Othello. And like, I i got i got your Wells hook up here.
00:31:30
Speaker
No, I'm just I just want. Touch of evil. Unless you got pinky in the brain. I'd watch that. I don't. Does that count? I feel like that counts.
00:31:41
Speaker
We're going to. I know. hopeton wells It is. Hope and I are obviously going to cover a couple of Orson Welles or ah Pinky and the Brain episodes on Welles University one of these days.
00:31:51
Speaker
um Yes, always. And then the War of the Worlds spinoff or the or the War of the Worlds spoof or two that we will definitely cover. Oh, boy. if Because those are the the two most direct Wells parallels. But yeah, it is.
00:32:04
Speaker
It's funny because when you listen to Ed Wood and you get Vincent D'Onofrio doing the physical performance and Maurice Lamarche doing the vocal performance of ah Orson Welles, it it's the brain. It's Vincent D'Onofrio as the brain is what it is. And it's especially evident when he says, when I directed my first film.
00:32:24
Speaker
Kane. Kane. He has to really push it out there. and you're like, oh man, that's what are we straight up doing tonight, Pinky?
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. That's when I'm like, is that fucking Marisa Marshall? Like when I'm watching that movie as a young man, I'm like, wait a minute. That's not Vincent DeNafrio. No, that's the brain, dude.
00:32:48
Speaker
Mm hmm. Now, whenever time and I'm a child of a certain age that every time I watch something with Orson Welles in it, I can't stop thinking just about the brain because mean that's the that's the origin of Orson Welles in my brain is pinky of the brain. brain I mean, you know, Hope's impression of Orson Welles is just the brain.
00:33:11
Speaker
It's just Maris LaMarche's Brand. It's good. that is That is her Wells impression. And when one in coming up next year sometime when we do our crossover episode with Wells University. tales Right.
00:33:25
Speaker
No, no, no, no, That's that's different. That's we're doing that next month. ah But no, next year we're doing our. Oh, that's a bummer, dude. um Tucker's almost had a whiskey. um We're going to do no next year. We're going to do our crossover episode with Wells. You on the shadow.
00:33:43
Speaker
With Alec Baldwin's? Yes, with all the Alec and with the Ian McKellen's? I can't wait to see that. You know I've wanted to see that since it came out, but it's just, I've just never gotten around to it. I really, really want to
Future Podcast Plans: Covering 'The Shadow'
00:33:56
Speaker
see it. But it's been out like 30 years I've been trying to see this movie.
00:34:00
Speaker
Over 30 at this point. I think it came out 93, 94, somewhere there. Finally. will finally see it. And I'm so... Same with The Phantom. Remember when we watched The Phantom? And it's like, I've been wanting watch this for 30 years. And here we are. Fuck yes. As I recall, that's the reason we ended up watching It's because you're like, I want to watch this movie. Give me an excuse to watch this movie.
00:34:19
Speaker
i been itching i don't know why some movies just always fall through the cracks and that's one of them i'm still like super psyched about it but i just i never find the fucking time i saw the shadow on vhs and i saw the phantom in theaters i went to the movie theater to watch that movie now i am very familiar with the the shadow on the radio i've heard a lot of the the radio shows from right way back in the day um So I who knows i hope he little lurks in the hearts of men
00:34:52
Speaker
i hope that no that that will make me enjoy it even more. Hope will probably make you listen to some of those radio episodes. We're actually going to cover several of them on the podcast. I've heard most of them.
00:35:08
Speaker
I'll listen to them again. but yeah, holler your boy. Like... I will talk about ah old-timey radio is a hobby of mine, like suspense and the Whistler. You and her both. yeah shadow And Signal Oil Company presents.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, we like all that stuff. And Roma Wines. The wine for your table is a Roma wine made in California for enjoyment across the world.
00:35:37
Speaker
i did a the first one of the first community theater productions I ever did in Indian at Beach Grove, Indiana at Spotlight Players, the now defunct Spotlight Players. Oh, that's a damn shame. i i I did a show from my with my friend Molly. She was directing it called Sorry, Wrong Number, which was an old radio play.
00:35:56
Speaker
And oh i yeah I was one of Yes, you know, sorry, wrong number It's where it's where the the lady like She picks up her phone and like she hears this conversation um about these dudes What are coming to straight up Straight murder her, Steven And she overhears the conversation and she And she's arguing with the operator dude ah Oh, it's a lady But she's arguing with the operator And she just gets so frazzled Dude, that was so popular on suspense that I believe there are. two days isn one
00:36:31
Speaker
They did rerun it a few times, but I think there's like three different live versions of it. And there's a movie which I have yet to see, but it is on my watch list.
00:36:43
Speaker
I played the assassin. I played the assassin and I played the Western union man. And the way that my friend staged it, the first, to say stop it was a bunch of times.
00:36:56
Speaker
I got to say, yes, I did. But I also got to say, I got to say the title, the title of the, of the play at the end, I pick up the phone after I, after I nerfed the lady and I say, sorry, wrong number into the phone and I hang it up.
00:37:09
Speaker
And that's the end of act one. So the first act, we do it just as a straight stage play. And then the second act, we do the exact same thing, except we do it as a radio broadcast. So like one of my friends is on stage doing like the,
00:37:24
Speaker
ah Like doing all the the Foley work. And like the rest of us are just dressed as like 1940s radio actors. And we're stepping up to microphones. And i did i did the commercial. And I did it in like three different voices. So I would just like throw on voices and just swap back and forth between them like.
00:37:46
Speaker
Dude. Just back and forth. I'm so jealous. Yeah. It was so much fun. um And my friend Lina, who was the the lead in that, won a local theater award for that performance. So but she was the only one nominated and she fucking won. So like good for her.
00:38:03
Speaker
ah But it was that was one of my first theatrical productions that I did in Indianapolis Community Theater.
Tucker's Passion for Old-Time Radio
00:38:10
Speaker
um I love – I love that I know that now because i can't believe that my obsession of old-timey radio has never come up on this podcast.
00:38:25
Speaker
I don't know. There's never really anybody to talk to about it because nobody else really gives a shit about it. But your boy is like several times a week at on Antioch, is station. just a cool friend of the show... that's Friend of the show, Hope Stow, is a – that was her entryway into Orson Welles was the the radio shit.
00:38:47
Speaker
My favorite thing falls into. Her and her spouse recently did their annual pilgrimage to Grover's Mill, New Jersey where they like visited the spot where the aliens were supposed to have landed in Orson Welles' War of the Worlds. Like it's a thing she does every year.
00:39:02
Speaker
So she just published a blog about it too. I'll try to link it in the show notes if I remember. Also ah callback. um That's a big part of the plot of Buckaroo Banzai. Excuse me. The adventures of Buckaroo Banzai across the eighth dimension.
00:39:18
Speaker
Thank you. There it is. of That's a big part of that plot too. So well, ah wells you going to do Buckaroo Banzai episode? Don't think so.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah, i don't think there's any reason to. I just... Yeah, now that think about it, I thought about it for like 10 seconds. If we You can mention it at the tail end of another episode. Right. and we can Here's the thing. We can toss it out as like just like name drop it, but I don't think we'll cover it on that. No, there's reason to. There's not enough. What else isn't in it? Yeah. you'd be It'd be like 10 minutes. You'd be like, yeah, it's part of the plot because of this, and that happened, and then I don't know. I think you could probably shoehorn it in when you discuss like the the different opinions on how real all of what we've heard about that is.
00:40:11
Speaker
you know what i mean? You could throw that in there. yeah that That would fit well there, I think. And hope Hope's ah actually reading a a book that came out relatively, I think within the past year, called Dead Air.
00:40:22
Speaker
ah She's in the process of reading that. and Yeah, and you should read it too because you guys leave a lot of it in your podcast so much. Like your boy's got comb through. Like, damn.
00:40:35
Speaker
Shit, I'm just trying to slap some intros and outros on this shit, Steven. Y'all make me work.
00:40:42
Speaker
ah I mean, you're welcome. i Thank you? like i guess it forces me to practice my craft, but fuck, man. What can I say except you're welcome. You're welcome. um But return to Oz.
00:40:58
Speaker
Yeah. I guess it's ostensibly after that 30-minute Orson Welles sidebar we just went on. You're welcome.
00:41:07
Speaker
But again, ah let's let's get into the sequel-ness of it all, because Disney releases this with the intention of it essentially being a sequel to the original film. But there are so many, I think...
00:41:24
Speaker
unofficial sequels because I don't think MGM ever made an actual sequel to The Wizard of Oz but there are a lot of people because those books entered the public domain when they did I think there were a lot of people kind of took it on themselves to make sequels to
Disney's Oz Projects and Musical Discussions
00:41:39
Speaker
The Wizard of Oz officially yeah the the silent films are more of a coherent franchise than the modern or even you know mid-century Oz franchise was It's always different people. Like you got your, was it Franken bass?
00:41:58
Speaker
It's what I'm thinking of. They did the animated one. frank bas but I say Franken bass, which is the story you know of a man who it's um two thousand a fish that comes to life. Yeah.
00:42:14
Speaker
I see. Yeah. I like that, but no, excuse me. It's all, Very separate. um and' Except for these wickets that are coming out, apparently. But that's like a two-part story. not really a sequel. It's just like... It was already a full story and they just chopped it in half. so You took a musical, you cut it in half. you made Is it technically a sequel?
00:42:38
Speaker
Technically. yes In the way that this kind of is technically a sequel, but not really. Well, I think... I think that... What ends up being the effect of this movie for me is that they want you...
00:42:53
Speaker
to have seen the original 1931 is it 31 39 39 i'm thinking of dracula my bad uh they want you to have seen want you to have seen the the 1939 original but they just want you to kind of have that as a blueprint. Like you were saying before about how it hits all the beats of the original.
00:43:23
Speaker
I think what it does is it takes the skeleton of that movie and goes through a couple of the other books and throws some new characters in, does some different stuff.
00:43:37
Speaker
And i think that that was kind of the way to do it because if you went in there and did something completely narratively different, it would have done even worse than it actually did. Right. And I know like I have, when I was younger in, in my early teens, I did read some of the Oz books and they are kind of, kind of the same sort of deal over and over. Like this, the character's different situation is different, but it's always like, here we are, something's going on.
00:44:12
Speaker
We got to fix it. Cool. Everybody's good. Right. Right. I mean, this this begins in the mid-50s when the man himself, Walt Disney, buys the film rights to all of the rest of of L. Frank Baum's novels.
00:44:33
Speaker
In 54. In order to, I mean, he was going to use, I think... ah There was going to be a live action film called the rainbow road to Oz that Disney had proposed and was actually working on never got completed, but these rights are just kind of sitting there until Walter. mur kind of Is there a documentary? There's a documentary on that. I think probably because like they had filmed parts of that. They had even like previewed it on the, whatever the wonderful world of Disney or whatever. They reviewed a couple of songs from it. So they had, they had,
00:45:06
Speaker
filmed on it like they had done production on it uh but i think they were worried uh that because it was all mousketeers like the whole cast was mousketeers yes yeah it was uh darlene gillespie annette funicello were both in it like annette funicello was supposed to be osma uh darlene gillespie was going to be dorothy i'm looking at the wikipedia article now and i mean you know, um Tommy Kirk is the son of, you know, the Wicked Witch of the West.
00:45:36
Speaker
um You've got, I mean, yeah, you've got basically a lot of kind of the Disney stalwarts in there. And yeah, eventually the thing kind of fell apart. ah but The documentary is called Walt Disney and the Road to Oz is the documentary.
00:45:47
Speaker
I'm going to watch that at some point. I need to put it on my list. um But I think that the reason they ultimately decided not to move forward any further with that film is because they didn't think that ah a film cast full of kids from TV would make them any money.
00:46:08
Speaker
Probably would have more money than this movie did. Yes. Unfortunately. That is almost certain. but But at that point, it's like it's like you know the Muppet Wizard of Oz, but the Mouseketeer Wizard of Oz. It's like, hey, here's these Mouseketeers that you know, and they're basically doing the Wizard of Oz.
00:46:24
Speaker
I haven't seen the Muppet Wizard of Oz because I didn't think I'd like it. You probably won't. Should I see it? Okay, good. I mean, there's a there's a scene where Quentin Tarantino pitches Kermit the Frog on a very violent, gory version of The Wizard of Oz. Quentin Tarantino as himself.
00:46:45
Speaker
It's a very deeply weird movie.
00:46:49
Speaker
Oh, now I kind of want to watch it. Damn, Stephen. Damn it. i don't even have time to watch the movies I buy physically, Stephen. I know, you and I both just bought a shit ton of physical media this past week. It's been weeks since I've had these, Stephen, and none of them have have entered a Blu-ray player.
00:47:07
Speaker
and Blu-ray. I love how you say that like William Friedkin. That makes me happy. Thank you you. One thing that movie would have had that this movie doesn't that I think is ah is a very distinct separation of the original film from this one is music.
00:47:20
Speaker
um yeah This film is not a musical in the way that the original one was. good um now Are you one of those like I hate musical kind of people? Because fuck you if you are. ah Well, Stephen, you know this about me that I'm not. I'm just so picky. Except for your favorite movie of all time.
00:47:37
Speaker
I am so picky about my musicals. The bar is so high that it would be very easy to mistake me for someone who hates musicals. Okay. Because I do hate the majority of them because I think the majority of them are unnecessary. Like the, the only thing that I've seen that I haven't liked involving Steven universe is the movie.
00:48:02
Speaker
Because it's a musical. And the songs suck. And they don't move the plot forward. They just slow things down. Which is so odd. And I'm not sure why I got onto this. But it's so odd because I love the songs in the show.
00:48:17
Speaker
Like I love all those little songs and everything. But like turning the movie into what felt like a forced musical. i just. Like I said. The bar is high on musicals for me. I do like a lot of musicals. But I don't like most musicals.
00:48:31
Speaker
Sure. sure So I'm not a musical hater, Stephen. I'm just picky as fuck about my musicals. Fair. I think pop it does need to be said for the record, yes, your favorite film of all time is Mary Poppins. Mary Poppins.
00:48:45
Speaker
Um, whereas I, I actually just saw one of my favorite movie musicals as a stage production just as past, just as weekend, um, went out with my partner and a couple of friends from the last show that I did. And we saw another friend of ours from the last show that I did in a little shop of horrors and she was amazing in it. And I love that musical.
00:49:06
Speaker
Now that's different though. i will go see a musical later. at the theater that I would have no interest in watching as a film. Um, just because there's something different about being there and people singing. I feel more involved with the music. ah If I'm physically there, when the music is being made, like where the music is happening, like, uh, I mean, I still like, I still like bye bye birdie and I still like fiddler on the roof, but I've,
00:49:38
Speaker
if you give me a choice between going to see the theater and watching at home, going to go see some people like do it for real because that's exciting. Even if it's a musical, I don't like, like I'm pumped. I just like seeing live music.
00:49:51
Speaker
And if people are in cool costumes and they're dancing around, like they're nuts way into it. And I mean, what I loved about what I love about the stage version of Little Shop is that it really captures, particularly with a community theater production, really captures like the Corman, like low budget style. That is there's just something about it.
00:50:13
Speaker
um Like at the end, when I like all the characters start, like coming up and like singing their parts at the end of the movie is like zombies with don feed the vines. with with the vines hanging off of them i'm like just fuck this is amazing i love every second of this did i cry during somewhere that's green and suddenly see more fucking maybe fucking maybe i did you know the biggest crime that that movie uh the movie with rick moranis ever committed was that they omitted or in scrovello's death no death song oh it's just the gas yes oh it's so don't be fooled if i should chuckle like hyenas in a zoo it's just the gas
00:51:00
Speaker
la yes it gets me high good oh good i get why it doesn't really fit in the film though. But gosh, I wish there were a lead scene I could watch of Steve Martin doing it because I would over that. what we do get in the film version that we don't get in the stage version.
00:51:20
Speaker
Green Mother? Well, that, but also in that brief fold we omit it's just the gas so we can get Bill Murray in the dentist chair because that character is not in the stage version. But he is in the original film.
00:51:34
Speaker
Yes, played by Jack Nicholson as we all know. Yes. Yes. Adorning the box art of every version of little shop of horrors that came out on VHS in the eighties and nineties. He's in it yes for about four minutes. You guys, it it is literally his very first film. it was made on his way to becoming famous. Like, cause it came out like the gas station. He was like, yeah, I could do this real quick. I got to get gas though.
00:51:59
Speaker
That's the Corman way though. That's, that's the fucking Corman method, man. Yeah. I love it. Um, But that has nothing to do with Return to... But again, like it because there's like a mirth and a whimsy, and my partner was saying this as we were watching the film this evening, there's a mirth and a whimsy to the original version that this one lacks, and the music is part of it, which it's it's odd to me that you're we're making a Disney version of The Wizard of Oz, and it's not a musical.
00:52:26
Speaker
Like, that feels really backwards to me. Particularly Disney at this time. agree. And I think that if they hadn't gone so over budget, like from the jump, that they probably would have made it a musical.
00:52:43
Speaker
Like, I mean, there's so much in this movie that you can see to where they're just like, yeah, they kind of ran out of money.
'Return to Oz': Visuals and Effects
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah. um I mean, it looks great. It all looks fantastic. It's very immersive, but there are some times where you're like, yeah.
00:53:00
Speaker
Maybe like they could have done something different with that if they had a bigger budget. We could have expanded upon that. Every penny of the film's $28 million dollars budget is right there on screen. Like it it looks like $28 million dollars on screen. It really does.
00:53:17
Speaker
Like it is. it's It's a very good looking film. And that's $28 million dollars in eighty s money Correct. Not adjusted for inflation, which I could adjust for inflation. That's millions of dollars back now, then. Yeah.
00:53:30
Speaker
Then now. Right, right. Sure, sure. um Like this – I mean – and you know you're getting you know Will Vinton's stop motion effects as we previously mentioned. the best.
00:53:43
Speaker
you're doing a lot of animatronic shit for like the cowardly lion for the little time he's in this movie for tick tock, like tick tock, the character, not the app. The, the, the character is pretty much almost entirely a stop motion or ah animatronic performance. I'm sure there's one the walking someone. it's a puppeteer so Yeah.
00:54:03
Speaker
So when tick tock walks in this movie, no shit. It's a guy walking on his hands inside of that suit. Right. Like doing a handstand and walking.
00:54:15
Speaker
There's just an upside down dude in TikTok. ah His name is Timothy D. Rose. Timothy D. Rose. He is also he is best known. tucker Do you know this? Do you know what he's best known for playing? I have not heard this. I have not seen this.
00:54:29
Speaker
A little character called Admiral Ackbar in a little movie called Star Wars Return of the Jedi. The Star War. Yeah. Yeah. Return of the Star War is what it was. He is also he was also the puppeteer for Salacious Crumb, Jabba's little court jester, dude.
00:54:46
Speaker
Oh, i know I didn't know that that was his name, but little the guy with the pointy nose. He's like a little sister. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen a Star War or two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Timothy D. Rose is the the head operator, and then Michael Sundin is the in-suit performer. So the kind of the Jim Henson mold of there kind of being a couple. Speaking of Jim Henson, you also get Brian Henson, who would go on to direct past episode of this podcast, ah the... pop the the happy time murders.
00:55:16
Speaker
I wanted that to be good. I wanted so bad for that to be good. I gave it so many chances and it's just garbage. And it's like, look, meet the feebles already exists. Like if you're not going to do better than that, why even try? Like you're the actual Muppets. Like, right. You need to come up and bring something to the table.
00:55:36
Speaker
I did enjoy though. Did you watch mayhem Steven? The series on Disney plus. I did enjoy when Peter Jackson was there. It's almost as bad as that time we meet the feet met the Feebles. We did meet the Feebles. Yeah.
00:55:52
Speaker
Floyd Pepper is the name of the bases, first of all. Put some respect on his name. yeah. Sorry. No, I couldn't think of it. I just love that in a family show, they reference one of...
00:56:04
Speaker
On Disney Plus. The most explicit films involving, probably the most explicit film involving puppets. Yeah. No, there's also there is also ah Let My Puppets Come, which is a puppet porno.
00:56:20
Speaker
I feel like that's something I never needed to know about. Like, I was just living my life, Steven, having a good time, and then all of a sudden, you let me know that exists. Thanks. My friend of the show, Mike Snoonian, is the one that let me know that existed. I'll bet he did. That sounds right. Mm-hmm. Okay.
00:56:40
Speaker
We love you, Mike. um Yeah. And then speaking of direct, so Brian Henson was both the voice of and ah head performer of um Jack Pumpkinhead. oh he wasn't He was the little frog too, right?
00:56:54
Speaker
Who was in the Muppets the little frog? Kermit the Frog's nephew or whatever? No, that's Jerry Nelson, dude. Are you sure? Robin? who Yeah, I thought that was Brian Henson at some point. No, no, that was always Jerry Nelson. That was something I probably learned before the internet, so you can't really fact check back then, so...
00:57:13
Speaker
even Even in the early days of the internet, you couldn't really fact check. It was wild just fucking mess on there. It just becomes part of your head canon. Yes, and I do love Brian Henson in this movie. I like Jack Pumpkinhead. like Anybody else doing that voice, like I want to be ah annoyed at him calling Dorothy mom because I think that's fucking stupid. It is.
00:57:36
Speaker
i I don't know. i still think it's sweet because Brian Henson really sells it. like He sells like this character. Like it's a really endearing character and you can't, you can't be, he's innocent and sweet.
00:57:49
Speaker
Yeah. and I will say, speaking of um directors whose films we've covered on previous episodes ah that also did puppeteering on this film, ah one of the puppeteers for the Gump was a director voice, right?
00:58:07
Speaker
No, not the voice. Lyle Conway was the voice and one of the puppeteers. The other puppeteer, who is not, is the man who gave us Blade and past episode of this podcast, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Yes.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yes, indeed. Special effects guy, Stephen Norrington. Correct. Another one of those guys who was like doing stuff in the industry for years said, we'll let you do this. And after a couple of films, he's like, fuck this never again. And really it was the Sean Connery of all that made him say, fuck this never again. Yeah. Yeah. That's a shame because like Blade is fantastic. a Death Machine is for what it is. It's it's pretty cool.
00:58:47
Speaker
It's pretty fucking cool. I would recommend it. It's pretty unique. film i it's kind of it's fine but watch it because there's fun stuff but even the league of extraordinary gentlemen it's bad but like what i sure do like looking at that movie we were we were at ah at a certain point in cgi just like van helsing to where like i compare it to van helsing and it's cgi to where it looked just good enough to not look too real
00:59:21
Speaker
did like Kind of like a Roger Rabbit thing, you know, or like more modern that Chip and Dale movie they did. And so like it kind of it sat OK with my brain.
00:59:32
Speaker
It wasn't until like kind of after that era where it got too realistic and too smooth and you got that uncanny valley. That's when it started fucking with me. Even stuff like Jurassic Park, like that's.
00:59:46
Speaker
I don't know how like a movie in 1994, the CGI looks better than most of the shit that I see now. Well, year for for that one, it's the amount of time they were able to put into the render. Like Spielberg's not releasing that shit unless it looks right. Yeah. After that, people start rushing through that shit.
01:00:08
Speaker
Right. But people start rushing through that shit eventually. And it becomes the what is the current Marvel model, which is we have a deadline. We've got a release date. We need to hit it. Get it done or else.
01:00:19
Speaker
Which is why Marvel movies look really shitty anymore. Well, because now they've figured out the shortcuts to where like you're probably not going to notice it, but they're going to take some shortcuts to do it get it done quicker and cheaper.
01:00:33
Speaker
Still looks okay. like I don't know. It just sucks that... The bar is so low. And then you have movies from even, like i said, Lee, we story near your gentleman like that stuff. It doesn't look real, but it looks good to me. It looks good.
01:00:49
Speaker
It looks OK. Yeah. of The way animation would look in a live action film is what I mean. I know. That's that's the way I kind of see it. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. Stephen Norrington. He was the he was the gump.
01:01:03
Speaker
Yep. he's He's one of the gums. The other one, of course, being Tom Hanks. ah No. that but This movie is essentially like a combination of
Oz Franchise Ambitions and Legacy Sequel Tropes
01:01:17
Speaker
L. Frank Baum's first two sequels to the original Wizard of Oz, The Marvelous Land of Oz and Ozma of Oz.
01:01:24
Speaker
um it borrows elements from other of the sequel book novels as well. But essentially like Disney owns the rights to these. So they say, we're going to do our own Oz franchise. It's just going to be our Disney thing.
01:01:35
Speaker
And it's going to be proprietary. They call it return to Oz because they're, and they're coasting off of the popularity of the original film. And that's why they end up shelling out for,
01:01:47
Speaker
The ruby slippers, which are proprietary to MGM. The ruby slippers are not a part of the novels. It's the silver slippers in the novels. Yeah. And the ruby slippers are the only physical thing. But another thing that they carried over that wasn't in the books ah was the fact that the people in the real world...
01:02:07
Speaker
that um dorothy came into contact with always were represented as different characters in oz right that was never something that was we see elements as the gnome you see the nurse as momi or what what is it mombi mombi yeah zombie you see that other little girl is ozma yeah And she brings the jack-o'-lantern to a room. That becomes Jack Pumpkinhead. You see the the big machine with the face. Well, this is his eyes. This must be his nose. And if this is his mouth, what's this? Why, that's his tongue, isn't it? Like, that becomes the basis for TikTok when she crosses over. Like, it's it's the stuff that she sees around her versus the actual people. Do you even have the the orderly... um
01:02:58
Speaker
the ah prominent orderly, the one you see the most there at the beginning is the main Wheeler as well. Correct. Yes. Like all of that is, is borrowed from the film as well.
01:03:09
Speaker
ah But yeah, the slippers were, I'm sorry. The slippers I think are the big thing that they have to get in order to try to, and I think that's the one main thing that kind of ties it to the original MGM film. Yeah.
01:03:20
Speaker
Well, I think what they wanted to do, and I think it really succeeds in that, at least for me, is that they wanted you to have knowledge of the original film. They, they were basically saying, look, we're going to adapt these other books and kind of do our own thing with them. This is not directly a sequel to the wizard of Oz, but so to kind of get you in the headspace, we got some Ruby slippers up in this bitch and we got people in the real world as characters in Oz. So familiar settings. Now we're going to do our own thing. Hopefully you're comfortable enough for us to do this radically different fucking thing.
01:03:57
Speaker
Right. And I mean, it is. They they weren't. Yes. I mean, in in that respect, it's an unofficial sequel and it's a sequel only in so far as they purchased the Ruby slippers. That is MGM because again, the original books, they were silver. They changed them to Ruby because they're doing that Technicolor thing and they really wanted the the the slippers to pop.
01:04:21
Speaker
And so they made them red. That's the only reason the red, the Ruby slippers exist. Right. Speaking of color, Steven, you know what I learned only recently, and I feel really stupid for not knowing this? Hmm.
01:04:32
Speaker
Like, so the 1939 Wizard of Oz, there's the black and white part, and then it's color when she steps into Oz, right? Mm-hmm. So all the stuff before she steps into Oz is filmed in black and white.
01:04:49
Speaker
But... That shot where she's in the house and the inside of the house is black and white and the outside is color. They like painted the inside of the house black and white.
01:05:03
Speaker
It's actually not black and white. It's sepia tones. Yeah. Well, you know what I mean? I do. But like, yeah, and there's actually a ah stand-in for Judy Garland, who is the Dorothy that steps out of the house, and then the camera pans up, and then kind of up slightly, and then back down. And then you see actual Judy Garland step into the frame. Like, that's...
01:05:23
Speaker
they do it all in one shot so yeah she's painting sepia from the back the stand-in is and then she walks through the door into the technicolor and then judy garland walks out in front of her it's a very like orson well citizen kane to bring up orson wells again that kind of in camera trick it's wonderful yeah it's amazing that's some movie magic and you know i always kind of took it for granted because i figured it was just something ah you know you can do that with with animation and a number of different processes in post-production now i don't know if they were available then or if anybody had thought of them but like just to go to that much effort to make it look the way it does and it looks great right it looks great like that's that's ah that's probably from my childhood outside of stuff like back to the future and ghostbusters and
01:06:13
Speaker
like that's something cinematic from my childhood that really struck me was that transition from sepia to color. It's one of the most amazing, even, even a child, even like it's, it's so well executed that even a child like is like, Whoa, that's,
01:06:34
Speaker
That's kind of rad. Like, i'm I'm fine, and I'm like, oh, that's the shit, actually. Even me, who knows how they did that, like, still kind of goes how they do that. Like, it's it's Kermit the Frog riding a bicycle. Like, it's movie magic. oh that's Like, i know I know how they got Kermit the Frog to ride a bicycle, but I'm still watching that going, how'd they get Kermit the Frog to ride a bicycle? Does it matter? It still feels like chick.
01:06:56
Speaker
but It still feels like magic. You're playing a trick on me in screen and I fucking love it. And this movie doesn't have a moment like that. No, unfortunately. To that level. like My partner even said like it would have been interesting had they done all the the preamble stuff in black and white like the original film did or in sepia tone or whatever. like Just so that there's a more stark transition when we get to Oz. But then you get to Oz and Oz is somehow more bleak than the real world is when you first get there though.
01:07:26
Speaker
I've got it. So, okay. The original was sepia and then black and then color. Like we play, we play with the Mandela effect here. Right.
01:07:37
Speaker
And we make all the, the beginning stuff, black and white. And then she, she lands in the desert. So that's kind of sepia. So then you just kind of make that as a sepia color grading on everything else. I mean, it's already there with the desert and then the color shows up.
01:07:56
Speaker
I do love that shot. Like I'm thinking of it now with this idea I'm having with the sepia going into it. But even without that, going from the desert to just that lush greenery and the trees. Right.
01:08:08
Speaker
It looks fantastic. The shot is good. Like, ah, I think it is. I mean, it's not as effective as the transition in the original, but I think it does kind of make an attempt to at least honor that, which I think they do pretty well.
01:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree. um But but and again, part of it is the fact that because of the the state of Oz, like it's that kind of legacy sequel trope of the main character returns to the world that they were in, but everything's different now.
01:08:39
Speaker
Yes. And like, it's very much that like Oz itself is a crumbling ruin of what it once had been. And so like Oz is when we first arrived there between the deadly desert and the crumbling Emerald City, it's it's more morose and and and depressing than the real world was where Dorothy was getting carded to the psychiatrist because everyone thinks she's crazy because she spent the last six months talking about this place she dreamed about when she got caught up in a tornado for a few seconds. Yeah.
01:09:11
Speaker
ah Which I've always kind of taken issue with that. Like, yeah, like the kid is saying some crazy shit, but like otherwise she's a normal kid. She's not like freaking out. Like, yeah, I get Aunt Em does say, you know, since you don't sleep, you're no use to me in the morning. And, you know, back then you had to fucking pull your weight for everybody to survive.
01:09:34
Speaker
mean, like I get that, but still like chores. Yeah. I've never understood the decision to take her to shock therapy. Like, I mean, she'll get over it. Or she won't. Or she'll learn to deal with it. Like, but really need to, you know like, take the horse and buggy six hours to to shock this bitch in the face?
01:09:55
Speaker
I don't think so. I don't know. It's always seemed weird to me. Always seemed weird. I also want to mention... um The yellow brick road, every time I see the yellow brick road, when they come upon it, um not only do I fear for poor Farooza Balk's safety as she's running across those uneven bricks, I swear, every time I swear she's going to fall.
01:10:20
Speaker
I'm like, some is there someone there in case? No? Okay, cool. She made it. Fine. um But what's with the yellow brick road? What kind of natural decay is that? Graboid?
01:10:32
Speaker
Is that what that is? Like a grab boy just followed the yellow brick road underneath? I can't think of any other explanation. and How does the ground swell right there at the road?
01:10:43
Speaker
I'd never understood that. I still love it. The Gnome King is a rock monster and all his followers are rock monsters. And that's so, I mean, that would make sense. That would make a lot of sense. It was right there the whole time. It was right there the whole time.
01:10:56
Speaker
Jeez Louise. Look, I'm a clever dude and I've got some intelligence and shit, but boy, there are blind spots. For all of us. Boy, I tell you what. And I feel so dumb. It was there the whole time, Steven. You mean me feel dumb. tucker As soon as you said it, I was like, what up? ah one I love the slow transition of the gnome King from completely claymation to completely human. And it's, it's, it's a very stark and almost obvious change when it happens, but like it's so cleverly and, and, um, gradually done that it almost sneaks right up on you. And I find that really amazing.
01:11:39
Speaker
I do. And I think, It is kind of a shame that they even switched at all, but I do appreciate the way that they do did it because it does transition really well because with the stop motion stuff, most of that, um the shot is is a lot wider.
01:12:00
Speaker
Yes. And then when we get into the live action actor with the makeup and everything, it is is more of a tight shot, yeah. So I get why they did it, and I appreciate the transition, but still, I wish it were all just... I just love the claymation so much on this movie. Will Vinton is a fucking
Will Vinton's Stop-Motion Artistry
01:12:18
Speaker
genius. Do all of it in stop motion.
01:12:21
Speaker
Love Will Vinton. whole movie. Get rid of all the actors. The whole movie stop motion. Let's go! Will Vinton did direct one full-length feature film, um which I don't know if it qualifies for us or not, but we can talk about it later.
01:12:35
Speaker
um it's It's an interesting – I've never seen it, but I i watched the Will Vinton documentary that came out several years ago. And it it stopped motion? What's it called? Fuck, hang on. You're going to make me look at it. I was ready to say something else. Well, you should already been – Oh, you had something. ah You had something. Yeah, I was. I was working on something. Yeah.
01:12:57
Speaker
yeah sweet But now I got to now got pause and probably forget that. um You have to. No, remember it. Don't forget. No, it's already gone. I've already forgotten what you're looking up. So.
01:13:09
Speaker
the the Will Vinton feature film. Oh, yeah, because when he directed it or what? Yes, no, he is the full director. It is called The Adventures of Mark Twain. Came out the same year as this, actually. And and is stop motion length it is a feature-length stop-motion film.
01:13:26
Speaker
Fuck a duck. What's it called, Stephen? The adventures Adventures of Mark Twain. Like the adventures of Tom Sawyer, but it's the author. Correct. The film features a series of vignettes extracted from several of Mark Twain's works, woven together by a plot that follows Twain's attempts to keep his appointment with Haley's Comet.
01:13:48
Speaker
Twain and three children, Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, and Becky Thatcher, travel on an airship to various adventures and counting characters from Twain's stories along the way. Steven, look, i we talked about old-timey radio before.
01:14:02
Speaker
But something a lot of people don't know about me and something that definitely this enfranchised audience doesn't know about me and something you probably don't know about me is I have read think everything that Mark Twain ever wrote or ever has written.
01:14:24
Speaker
And I'm a big... Big fan. Specifically, my favorite, Stephen. Not that you asked, but assuming that you would eventually. My favorite is a ah Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.
01:14:37
Speaker
Have you read that shit, Stephen? Of course not. Fucking fantastic. Boy, that Mark Twain, I tell you. There's a reason people are still talking about him, Stephen. There's a reason.
01:14:49
Speaker
I gotta see this now. How is this? What? Stephen. Damn it. Hour and 26 minutes? I can watch that tonight after SNL. i mean, that's two hours. You haven't seen SNL yet?
01:15:03
Speaker
No, because I work. Man, I work this weekend. I can't stay up that late on a work night. I'm going to get up at least by 5 a.m. Don't. I was going to bring up the return of a character that we haven't seen in a while.
01:15:16
Speaker
It's already been spoiled. But I'm excited for it. so Because you know, i's come get I don't get the TV show or the movies, but I love the sketches.
01:15:27
Speaker
Yeah. um Spoilers. but you know i have a couple know so But in the movie, you know I remember what I was going to say In the movie, he mentions that ah the the note King mentions that the more of the, the, the,
01:15:45
Speaker
fellowship for lack of a better word that goes in and fails his test the closer he becomes to being fully human and so if Dorothy had failed her test he would have become fully human that's the the implication and so he gets gradually more human the more of them start going in and failing that test and so that's why that gradual um shift is happening which again I think is very well done and very well executed I understand that and I agree it's just I I just love to stop motion in this throw a couple more million dollars into this and we would have had like a american werewolf in london level stop motion to man transformation
01:16:31
Speaker
i was watching this and as soon as i saw the faces on the rock i was like is that well then And so I got on my phone and looked it up and sure enough, that was Wilventon. And i was like, I thought so. Like that first face on the rock. I'm like, that looks very well. That's to me. Yes. And it hooks you because right from the beginning, when just when you see that little, it's just like an eye on that one rock. Yes.
01:16:55
Speaker
Right when she gets into Oz, when she's walking across the rocks in the desert, it's like, whoa, that's creepy. That's fucked up. It's obviously stop motion and it's smooth as shit.
01:17:08
Speaker
It just hooks for me, like even as a kid, like I'd seen stop motion stuff. You know, I'd seen i knew large March. I'd seen King Kong like I knew stop motion.
01:17:20
Speaker
But this was, it's just another level. Like you imagine movies. Can you imagine King Kong? With that level of stop motion, like that intricate, like focused, like hundreds of hours.
01:17:38
Speaker
Mm hmm. Oh, man. He like Will Vinton is I grew up with Will Vinton, honestly, like the Claymation Christmas special, the California Raisins. Like I watched all those California Raisins special as a kid.
01:17:53
Speaker
um Like I there was even a short film that he did like that. I saw at the museum, the Children's Museum all the time. It was like with the dinosaur. It was his 1980 film Dinosaur, which featured the two dinosaurs from the Claymation Christmas, the T-Rex and the the like, drits are or not the Triceratops, but the other one with all the the spikes coming out of his head. It's not a Triceratops because he's got more than three spikes, but like it's got the three, it's got those two characters. Like that was his, original one of his early films that i short films that saw. it a Stegosaurus? The Noid commercials?
01:18:26
Speaker
No, it's not a Stegosaurus. He's got the horns. It's just, But like, times the guy didn like ah I was, yeah, it has like the one horn here, the two horns out of the head, but then it's got like several horns around the rim. Yeah. Yeah. It's got like the little crown of horns.
01:18:45
Speaker
Yes. So, but I mean, it's, yeah, it, it, it's a, it's a movie. It's a short, I remember seeing that at the children's museum when I went as a kid and thinking it was the coolest thing. Like I, so I've, I'm a big fan of Will Vinton. I'm a big fan of the claymation stuff. So I, I picked that out immediately. I was like, hell yeah. I love this. And if you haven't seen the Will Vinton documentary, man, you absolutely should. It's so, I want to, what's it called?
01:19:10
Speaker
Um, what is it called? Steven, I don't have time for all this shit, but I am adding so many things to my list tonight. It's kind of ridiculous. welcome. Yes. And I mean, I'll get to this shit eventually. You're welcome, man. I'm so excited.
01:19:26
Speaker
I know you will. I know you'll get there. um Hang on. Because he was like... I watched it a few years ago, um when ah like shortly after i moved up from um From Indy to Illinois. Yeah. And it's a really great little documentary just all about – it's called Clay Dream. That's what it is. Clay Dream.
01:19:51
Speaker
Came out in 2021. Definitely check it out. It's basically putting the the the rise and fall of Will Vinton. It is currently on Fossum and Prime Video. Speaking of things streaming places, The Adventures of Mark Twain, which is probably the film I have been the most excited to watch in a few years.
01:20:11
Speaker
Steven, you've touched me this evening, Steven. This evening, Steven. evening, Steven. In my heart.
01:20:22
Speaker
In my heart. And I'm so psyched to see this movie. It is on Prime Video, so if you... um Oh, yeah. If you're on the primes.
01:20:34
Speaker
i And I don't know. Maybe check it out. And if you think it's if you think it's one that we could cover on this podcast, let me know. I want to. Just because like that's another one. Like I said the earlier, the old-timey radio stuff, it's not something that really comes up.
01:20:50
Speaker
But yeah, I'm yeah a huge Mark Twain guy. So I'm and like, there's not, you he's been dead for a while. So it's not like you get a lot of new Mark Twain stuff. So like this to me is like, it's a new thing.
01:21:03
Speaker
Yeah. And it's years. I think it was probably 2015 when I, I felt like I had kind of read everything that he had put out. Did you read the autobiography of Mark Twain?
01:21:19
Speaker
No, but I have the audio book. That is on my list. That's actually second on my list. Next road trip I take by myself. I was working at Barnes and Noble when that came out, and that was huge. People went apeshit for that book. Yeah, I was kind of apeshit for it too, but it's it's like The Shadow and The Phantom. ah You know, I just haven't... It's just never happened. I don't know.
01:21:42
Speaker
ah And it sucks at that. I'm going, I just learned about the adventures of Mark Twain and I'm going to probably watch that in the next two days. And I still will have not read the autobiography of Mark Twain. Yes.
01:21:58
Speaker
I'll get there. Um, You will. You'll get there. Look, I'm i'm not worried about you. ah Little baby Feruza Balk in this movie. um Considering I know her from The Waterboy and American History X. She's always the edgy gal, right? And in this, she's she's just so sweet, but like also like plucky and adventurous and everything you need to be the protagonist of like this kind of family movie.
01:22:23
Speaker
Absolutely. She's perfect. Absolutely. 100%. I think she's really good in this. And this is, i want to say, her first Feature.
1985 Films: 'Return to Oz' and Cultural Reflections
01:22:35
Speaker
Theatrically released feature film. Yeah. She had done a TV movie before called the best Christmas pageant ever. And two episodes of a TV miniseries called deceptions before this. But like, this is her first, this is her film debut.
01:22:49
Speaker
The best Christmas pageant ever. Didn't they just do another movie of that? That's the one I read that book when I was a kid. It's the one where like, um, they're putting on the Christmas pageant and there's like some pores there.
01:23:02
Speaker
And like, we should have the pores be in it. A teacher puts on a Christmas pageant and puts the worst children in school as the stars. The poor. They're poor. Loretta Swit is the star of the film.
01:23:16
Speaker
The new one? She she of ah MASH fame, the TV show MASH. So not the new one. But, yeah. Word.
01:23:27
Speaker
Can you hear me, Steven? Yes, I can. Okay, I'm just making sure. there but i can yeah That's cool. I love that. i love that. Well, I think it's just your audio. I think when we upload it'll all be fine.
01:23:39
Speaker
Oh yeah. Def. I'll check it out. Timestamp.
01:23:44
Speaker
I didn't timestamp it. I know, but if I say a certain word right now, you will. You wouldn't. Steven, you wouldn't. Okay. Thank i would, but I'm not going to. I'm glad. you ran I would hug you right now. If we were in the same room right now, I would give you a big hug, Steven, for being so generous.
01:24:03
Speaker
i am I am going to be in Indy the week ah weekend of Thanksgiving, so maybe we can arrange something. Can we? we can. That sounds fantastic. Have you gotten your Circle City Super? Yeah, you did get that. Of course. Yeah, I got it at the as i got same time you did. I got it at the premiere. Yeah, i was that we were there. I'm Inby.
01:24:23
Speaker
Yo, I'm going to. We went there together. I'm going to repeat. I'm going to have the same exact thing that I had at Lincoln Square in Greenfield tomorrow. I'm going to have a mimosa, a cup of coffee, and a motherfucking tenderloin.
01:24:38
Speaker
There it is. I love those tenderloins. I love brunch because I can drink like it's breakfast and eat like it's lunch, dude. ah It's the best.
01:24:49
Speaker
It's the best of both worlds. Fuck. Return to Oz comes out on June 21st, 1985. I am just just ah about a month shy of my second birthday. i was three. When this movie was two and a half, two and a half.
01:25:06
Speaker
i was two and a half. um But the ah the number one film in America this week is a little movie called Cocoon, Ron Howard's Cocoon.
01:25:18
Speaker
Steven, what if the movie that dares ask the question, what if there was a cocoon? It's been far too long since I've seen Cocoon. In ah second place, down from number one the week before in its fifth weekend, it's made almost $100 million dollars in five weeks.
01:25:35
Speaker
Rambo colon First Blood Part 2. two Eh. I like the original. I'm sure. the the original is an actual like nuanced film. The second one is, oh, Sly Stallone's an action star now, and we need to make this a movie commensurate with his stardom.
01:25:52
Speaker
And this is what hurts me, which really pisses me off about it, is... that I feel like they could have maintained the tone of the original and still probably not made it as exciting, but, you know, amped things up a little bit.
01:26:09
Speaker
Sure, sure. ah It's just that they were like, no, we don't like emotions and like intelligence and all that. No, we don't need that. Let's just blow shit up. And it is entertaining. I do like First Blood, too.
01:26:23
Speaker
Sure. Not as a Rambo movie, but as just a ridiculous fucking insane action movie. ah Down from number two the week before in its third weekend at number three, a movie we've covered on this podcast before, a little film called directed by one Richard Donner called ah The Goonies.
01:26:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I wasn't on that episode. No, that was before you joined. yeah And then at number four, I think a potential future episode of this podcast, Toby Hooper's Life Force at number four.
01:26:56
Speaker
i have all That's another one. Oh, it's always been on my list. It's good. I got a Fangoria, issue of Fangoria in like 1998. That was like, y'all remember Life Force? And I was like, no, I don't.
01:27:13
Speaker
But that looks kind of cool. It's pretty rad. Space vampires. Yeah, I'm way into that. It's fucking rad. Still haven't seen it. Still haven't seen it. ah That's a Sony TriStar release. I think one of the final canon movies we talked about um another final canon movie on this podcast. um Right. Masters of the Universe.
01:27:34
Speaker
Oh, I thought action Jackson was a canon. It was, but, like, Masters of the Universe was one of, like, the last canon movies. Life Force is one of the movies that killed canon. That's another one where, like, i i like that movie, but it's a terrible fucking He-Man movie. Like, why would you do that? Like, whose call was that, like, yo, you know what kids really love about He-Man? Is that he's in this fantasy world in Castle Grayskull, and there's, like, fantasy beasts and shit.
01:28:02
Speaker
So instead...
01:28:05
Speaker
Let's just put him in the in the real world. That's fun, right? No. Well, i mean we we talk about it on that episode, but that is 100% a budget restraint. Like, they don't have the money to keep to sustain that for an entire picture. It's such a weird choice, though, because that's the... I do like it as a film, but like I say, as as a child, I was a fan of the He-Man.
01:28:30
Speaker
I had his tiger. i could put him on the tiger and you can put the little pop caps inside of him and you hit this switch on the back and his chest would like make popping noises, I guess. And like his arm would come down with the sword in it. Battle cat. That's the name of the tiger. Battle cat.
01:28:47
Speaker
You know who else really loved the the He-Man movie? Frank Langella. Really fucking loved that movie. he I think more than anyone else in the cast, he was like, I wish I could have gone back and done that again because I really love playing Skeletor.
01:29:02
Speaker
You know, that's I don't know why, because I think it would have worked. You know, you put that on Broadway, right? You put that in the theater. Boy gets to do it every night for weeks. And if you just you take his performance and you rewrite the entire thing to fit that tone.
01:29:21
Speaker
You'd have a hell of a stage play. I'm just saying. yeah Rounding out the top five we have in its ah fourth weekend down from three the week before is Chevy Chase's Fletch.
01:29:35
Speaker
He's working overtime. i You know, i haven't seen any Fletch movie, but I heard have heard from people whose opinions I trust and whose tastes I usually share that Jon Hamm is peak Fletch.
01:29:49
Speaker
That's whatever. And we'll cover that movie on this podcast at some point. Fuck, that means I have to watch the other ones for content. No one doesn't. Shit. But I will. I will. You will. I have to.
01:30:02
Speaker
You don't, but you're going to make more work for yourself because you're you. don't mind Chevy Chase. He's funny, I guess. As long as I don't have to meet the guy and talk to him, I guess. No, that would be terrible. Can you imagine meeting Chevy Chase and Quentin Tarantino at the same time? The most friendly guy to a fault and the least friendly guy to a fault. That would just be the worst day.
01:30:25
Speaker
Friend of the show. I don't know if you know this or not, Tucker, but friend of the show, Devon Taylor has had a closed door meeting with Quentin Tarantino. Yeah, dude. I know. I'm also on Instagram. Yeah.
01:30:36
Speaker
Okay. All right. We're friends. Rounding out the top 10 sixth place, you've got Pritzy's Honor, the film for which Angelica Houston wins her Oscar. Pritzy's Honor. Okay. No, I haven't seen that. Educate yourself.
01:30:49
Speaker
At number seven, we have this film, Return to Oz. At number eight, the Bond film, A View to a Kill, which I think is – I mean, it's it's Roger Moore Bond, so I don't think it's that great. But a lot of people really like Roger Moore. I'm just not one of them.
01:31:03
Speaker
um In ninth place, underrated Little Gem, directed by the aforementioned Walter Hill. A little movie called Brewster's Millions, which I really like. um With John Candy and Richard Pryor. Rick Moranis is in there for a little bit, too. It's good movie.
01:31:20
Speaker
Have not seen it. Another one i'm on my list for fucking years. why tonight is Tonight is the on my list for years episode. It is. and As much as it ever has been.
01:31:33
Speaker
And rounding out the top 10, we have a little movie called that I've never heard of called Secret Admirer. um no what's that? I don't know this one, man. I'm looking at the poster and I don't recognize this guy. We've not heard about this. We've not seen this. It's C. Thomas Howell. It's Kelly Preston.
01:31:53
Speaker
It's Lori Lofton. Lori Loughlin. Excuse me. ah Fred Ward. D. Wallace. You love D. Wallace. so I like Fred Ward. Oh, then why haven't we? If you like Fred Ward, then why have we not covered? um Oh, fuck. What's that movie that he did? Shit. Where he plays like the secret agent and Joel Gray is the extremely like insensitive racial Asian racial stereotype.
01:32:21
Speaker
um It was like Fred Ward's attempt to like kick off a franchise. It's been on our list for fucking forever. Was Fred Ward also in Soul Man?
01:32:31
Speaker
i feel like that was C. Thomas Howell. I could be wrong about that. I'm scrolling through it. I can't believe they still played that on TBS in the 90s. Wow. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Absolutely insane. That one. Yeah.
01:32:47
Speaker
it's not I mean, it's not a bad movie. It's just like, why would you I mean, you could. this There's there's. you're wrong. Remo Williams. The Adventure Begins is the movie I'm thinking of. Also came out in 1985.
01:33:03
Speaker
word Came out shortly after secret Fred Ward's Secret Admirer, apparently. um And then another movie I just want to shout out in the 13th spot, a little movie called Beverly Hills Cop.
01:33:16
Speaker
ah which has been in theaters for 29 weeks. It has grossed over $200 million. dollars And is the director of that film is someone that i have had ah have had a conversation with. Oh, my.
01:33:31
Speaker
And I will not tell the story of that conversation
01:33:35
Speaker
if I'm not behind a paywall. ah So there you go. ah But there you go. Have you seen Axel yet, though, Stephen? seen Axel yet? I have not. What?
01:33:47
Speaker
You know, I did. but My i have parents watched it. Hold on just a second. My parents watched it, and they said it was fine. They both agreed with me that it was better than the third one. But they... I thought it was... No, I thought it was as good as the second one, which I do enjoy the second one. It's it's not as good as the first. i mean But I thought... The second one's a Tony Scott movie. It's great.
01:34:08
Speaker
And... They said it was better than three, but they still didn't think it was as good as two. So we differed on that a little bit. so I have a feeling that's where I'm going to land on it as well. Well, let me know if we ever do any kind of what are we watching ever again probably our lives.
01:34:25
Speaker
um The Tomatometer score for Return to Oz is 59%. Oof. Critics consensus, Return to Oz taps into the darker side of L. Frank Baum's book series with an inventive, dazzling adventure that never quite recaptures the magic of its classic pre predecessor, which I need to will agree with.
01:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, but does it need to? The meta score is a 42 based on mixed or average reviews from 11 critics. Unfair. Tucker, would you care to guess the letterboxed score for 1985's Walter Murch film Return to Oz?
01:35:05
Speaker
I feel like a lot of people are going to genuinely enjoy this, and a lot of people are going to enjoy it Ironically, i mean there are a lot of ways to enjoy this movie, so I think it's going to go pretty high.
01:35:21
Speaker
and We are going with the new three-point standard here, so I have to be within 0.3. going to say this in between 3.3 and a 3.6. so i'm go to say this comes in at a between a three point fuck a duck three and a three point six
01:35:45
Speaker
Tucker, the letterbox score for Walter Merch's 1985 Return to Oz is a 3.4. You
01:35:56
Speaker
did it. You did it. And y'all were like, oh, you're not good at it. It's just the it the spread's so big. and Fuck y'all. I still got it.
01:36:08
Speaker
I still got it. point this time what's up m and i've been getting it like since i haven't gotten one wrong since we moved it to point three i don't remember i i don't remember um my boyfriend's back so i i i can listen to the tape steven i i'm not gonna but thank you i'm i'm sure i'm sure you're right um tucker out of five stars how many are you giving to return to oz This is a four star. It's a four for me.
01:36:39
Speaker
Yes. I really really really, really, really, really like it. There are some parts of it where I can take it or leave it. And by take it or to leave it, I mean, i can sit there and watch it and be perfectly fine and not be bored.
01:36:53
Speaker
Or can go pee. for a minute or I can go like grab a snack real quick. So I'm like, oh yeah, I'm in be this part, but like, it's not that exciting. I don't have to sit here and watch it.
01:37:03
Speaker
I will. If I'm already comfortable and like i'm already got a snack, I'm more than happy to fucking watch it. But that's what the difference between a four and a five star movie is. I can step out if I need to, you know,
01:37:17
Speaker
We're not. ah Whereas it's a three star for me. So, um which I mean, it's one of those movies like I get what it's trying to do and I appreciate the ambition of it, but I just don't ultimately think it's successful in what it's trying to do.
01:37:32
Speaker
Which is evident by the fact that it only made $11 million dollars or like $10.6 million on a $28 million dollars budget. like Which I didn't mention before. But like audiences weren't there for it. And I mean, I think a lot of people, this movie kind of now is referenced as kind of a Gen X millennial fever dream of a movie. like It's one of those like this gave me quintessential this gave me nightmares as a kid movies. It really found its life on video. And I feel like it
01:38:04
Speaker
it shit its pants at the box office, but ever since then... ever since it's been available on home video and on streaming, more people are seeing it and more people are digging it. Like, it's kind of like, it's kind of like the Poodie Tang of my childhood. Right. Because when I was watching Poodie Tang, when it came out on video, like several times a day, I was watching that.
01:38:29
Speaker
I was like, yeah, nobody else. Like, I can already kind of read the room, engage the situation. I'm one of like a few people who's really digging this. And I don't think that's going to change, but it has changed.
01:38:43
Speaker
Like it's, it's grown. It's grown. And return to Oz is kind of that of my childhood. Like when I saw this as a child, when i was like 10, 11, I was like, Oh, like people hate this, but I really like it. I must be like, there must be only dozens of us, you know? And there probably were at that point, but as it's just spread. And I think that's why it has such a high letterbox rating. Sure.
01:39:10
Speaker
because ah if Letterboxd existed when this movie came out, it would not have had that high of a rating. Its reappraisal has built its fan base, is what I'm saying.
01:39:22
Speaker
It's one of those movies that the people who have grown up with it have started to reckon with it and come to bat for it in in a way that the critics at the time did not. Well, and it's perfect timing because I feel like it was a little ahead of its time with its tone. In a lot of ways, think so, yes.
01:39:40
Speaker
Like, I know, which is weird to say because you don't get a lot of family films now that are this intense and fucked up. But at the time, it was still...
01:39:52
Speaker
way ahead of its time. I think it's easier now for people to appreciate it than it was then. So I feel like it's only natural that it has a bigger fan base now than it ever could have in the 80s or nice Which makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean, and and again, like, sometimes it takes these movies, like, these movies will bomb at the box office, and it takes a few years because of word of mouth or what have you for them to really find their audience. And that that still happens today, where very good movies will just not get...
01:40:21
Speaker
the like the respect they deserve from critics or from audiences. And it takes people a few years to come to grips with them. And you'll get the critics that were like, Hey, I was beating the drum for this from day one. And then the other ones who were like, you know, I, I didn't get it before. It makes a lot more sense to me now. I wasn't in the right place. Like there are movies that by, ah by modern terms are considered masterpieces that I've watched and gone.
01:40:44
Speaker
Fuck that. I know. No, thank you. Yeah. And then there are movies there are movies that most people are like, yeah, no, that I'm like, this is for me. Like the aforementioned Mystery Men. We were talking about that earlier. Like that that is a movie that is for me. Like that is a movie for Stevens. hu um So like that is – That's an honorary Steven.
01:41:06
Speaker
That's it. Because it's for me too. It's a movie that I love. Like I recognize the flaws in the film and I don't care. Like it just works for me. It doesn't matter. The things that work work so well.
01:41:18
Speaker
And for me, that's like this movie. The things that work work so well that right the stuff that doesn't work doesn't matter. Exactly. Which makes perfect sense. And I and I get why someone would really love this movie. It just doesn't quite work for me. And apparently it's from what I again, from what I've read ah of the reviews at the time, it's very much.
01:41:40
Speaker
of a piece with the L Frank bomb novels. Like this movie has more in common with the novels than it does with any other film adaptation that's gone before, which again, people that know the the bomb books really appreciated it. And people that only knew the movie really didn't when I'm one of those has only seen the movie kind of people. Like I, like I mentioned before, I haven't really engaged with the books to the extent that I really want to. So maybe one day I'll, I'll read the books and if I like them, I'll come back to this movie and I'll come back, come back with a new appreciation for it.
01:42:10
Speaker
Who knows? so Maybe you will. That's just what I'm thinking right now. Fuck but yeah. fuck yeah ah But that is our episode on Return to Oz.
01:42:22
Speaker
We did it. We returned to Oz. I can pretty much guarantee you I'm going to be seeing the new Wicked film in theaters because it is, I think, the the one movie my partner is really looking forward to seeing this year. All the other movies that she was looking forward to seeing have been colossal disappointments and the early buzz on this one is pretty good. So I guarantee you this is a maybe one of the last movies I'll see in theaters this year.
01:42:42
Speaker
um But I will definitely be seeing the Wicked for good in theaters this year, for sure. I will say this about the Wicked films. I can't see myself ever choosing To look at either of those films That's fine But I have to imagine If I did i would not be offended by them There you go There you go Yeah Because I get it and I mean people love it Like come on yeah
01:43:14
Speaker
And people love it and people hate it. Like, I think a lot of critics were kind of like, this is it. And I think a lot of people that love The Wizard of Oz or love the the Wicked musical are like, yes, this is my thing. And we are, we're a big musical household. My partner and I, we love, we love, we love musicals. So we'll be there. Well, and ah at the risk of making this longer, because I have to pee so bad, but I just have to say this, Steven, just like all great franchises, everybody has...
01:43:45
Speaker
they' their entry that really spoke to them. And Return to Oz is that for me. you know Some people have, like my mom has Wizard of Oz. and my nieces have Wicked.
01:44:01
Speaker
But your boy firmly Return to Oz. Like I like the other shit. Like said, if I watched Wicked, I'd probably be cool with it. I'd probably be yeah, this is fine.
01:44:12
Speaker
But I would probably... I can't see myself ever watching it, like, by choice. But, like, i it's all cool. I respect all of it. Like, really cool. But Return to Oz is... It's kind of a... It's part of my DNA, I will say. It's a film that I watched so early, and it was something that I appreciated in a cinematic way so early, that it is kind of a big part of the foundation...
01:44:42
Speaker
of who I am as a film fan even today. And I think you can kind of see that in the other movies that I tend to
Changing Film Access and Podcast Conclusion
01:44:49
Speaker
enjoy. right Like it tracks like Return to Oz tracks for me for sure. Yes.
01:44:54
Speaker
It's very much the kind of movie that I would expect you to enjoy. Now that's not always a one to one. and It's not always a direct correlation because as we've mentioned before on this podcast, there are movies that you should like that you don't for one reason or another. How are the duck? Like, how are the duck? The duck is the prime by people people People are like, if I could go back in time, I would straight up kill Hitler. Yeah.
01:45:18
Speaker
No, dude, if I go back in time, would go back to like probably 1987, 1988 and be like, hey, dude. And give me VHS of Howard the Duck. hey dude ah and i just give me a ah vhs of howard the duck feel like I feel like that has the potential to have been a formative Tucker film had had you discovered it at that age.
01:45:39
Speaker
And I knew it existed, but like i don't I don't know. like It was different in the 80s and ninety s you didn't like everyones Everything wasn't at your fingertips. like You had to blind buy shit and like to take a risk. If you didn't see it at the theater, which was already a risk, because when you have the trailer, you see a TV spot.
01:45:58
Speaker
I mean, you might be – if you're a fan Siskel and Ebert at the movies, then maybe you have like something of an idea. but But still, it's just a review. like There's no buildup to it. there's like Right now, like you get on the internet and there's just like – I don't want to say hours, but minutes of material you can read about movies in production like you might be excited about and details and leaks and like what this person has to say about it. And your favorite YouTuber has something to say about it.
01:46:27
Speaker
Back then, man, you got a TV spot and that's all you had to go off of. yeah that's it i i went out I went out to the store. My partner and I went grocery shopping this afternoon and there's fucking wicked shit everywhere. like I don't remember there being being a rollout for a movie, like ah an advertising rollout for a movie that big since like maybe The Phantom Menace like in 99.
01:46:51
Speaker
and unlike i mean Because it's a family film. yeah like And it's a musical. It's PG. It's a PG movie. like How often we get PG movies that are not Disney animated films? Unless you really, really hate musicals.
01:47:08
Speaker
Like you. I don't. That's what I was saying. If I saw these movies, I'd probably be fine with them. like Whatever. But if you're The only people who probably wouldn't be at least okay with seeing these movies would be people who just absolutely hate fucking musicals, which is a small portion of the population, i have to imagine.
01:47:32
Speaker
Yeah. Sure. I got to pee so bad, Steven. Can we wrap this up? Let's do our socials. Okay. Well, this has been the disenfranchised podcast. You can find us on blue sky letterbox and YouTube at disenfranch pod. Shoot us an email disenfranch pod at gmail.com. Head over to patrion.com slash disenfranch pod for five bucks a month. You get access to our deep archive of a bonus material or for absolutely free. You can join the official conversation of the disenfranchised podcast. That's patrion.com slash disenfranch.
01:48:03
Speaker
pod ah Also, while if while you're surfing around the internet, if you don't want to shell out the money, give us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Help us find more people, listeners, just like you. I'm your host, Stephen Foxworthy. You can find me on...
01:48:20
Speaker
letterboxed and blue sky at chewy walrus or you can listen to my other podcast with my good friend hope stow called wells university which we have invoked on this very episode we're on a bit of a hiatus right now but hoping to return as soon as i get my life together and get my research done um and then also you can listen to me occasionally dropping by the pod and the pendulum as well as one of the panel over there. ah Do not find our absent co-host Brett Wright. Last I heard, he got admitted to a mental hospital for some shock therapy. We hope he's doing well. Tucker, where can we find you these days? Well, last I saw Brett, he was just kind of like floating down the river.
01:49:00
Speaker
Yeah. um But you can find on... Talking a chicken for some reason? Well, yeah. I had heard that, but like that sounded weird. But... ah You can find me on Instagram and YouTube at Ic909. That's I-C-E-N-I-N-E, the number zero and the number nine. Also, Tuck Mugs still exists. And, ah you know, I plan on keeping it going. It's just been a while. i I feel like there will be family gatherings and friend gatherings where mugs and pint glass pint glasses and shot glasses will be around.
01:49:33
Speaker
that are not mine that I can take a chance to sort of expand the content of tuck mugs and turn it into um not so much a guest mug, but a what I will call like a tourist mug.
01:49:47
Speaker
thought about doing it tonight, but my hands were a little full when I was taking that shot, so I didn couldn't really get a photo of that shot glass. Yes. But yeah, TuckMugs. It's still there. Lots of kind of great content that's already there, plus planning on putting some more on there. um That's it. TuckMugs. Tuck underscore Mugs on Instagram. It's the end.
01:50:11
Speaker
And so with that, we bid you adieu. Join us next week. Hopefully we'll have a guest next week. I've reached out and I've not heard back yet. So hopefully I hear back from him soon and we can schedule a time that works for all of us. um But yeah, um join us next week for another brand new episode, unless we can't schedule something and we have to run a repeat. But hey,
01:50:32
Speaker
Either way, you'll have something from us on Thanksgiving. At any rate, until next time, I'm your host, Stephen Foxworthy, for the absent Brett Wright and very present Tucker. Until next time, there really truly is no place like home.
01:50:48
Speaker
Disenfranchised!
01:51:05
Speaker
Thank you.