Transcript
Alexis: Hey everybody, i'm gonna I'm gonna start this episode right on topic and tell you how I found half of a possum this morning outside.
atack2010: Oh, this should be good.
Alexis: Yeah, actually, i've there's a bunch.
atack2010: Can't wait to hear this.
Josh: Which to be clear, it was the front half that you found.
Alexis: ah It was, yeah, ribs up to head and nothing nothing internal.
Josh: That would be the harder part to eat, in my opinion.
Alexis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's It was sad because like I don't hate possums.
atack2010: OK.
Alexis: I know some people are really creeped out on it, but like all I saw, it kind of caught me off guard as as half a possum would. I walked over and I saw these little paws like upward and I was like, the hell? And um yeah, and then I was like, oh, I wonder if this is the possum that we thought was friends with the cats, but apparently not no mo because...
Brett: Oh, buddy.
Josh: All right, I got it falling out.
Brett: Oh, shoot.
Alexis: Yeah, we ah every once in a while come in in the morning. If I come in ah early was so dark and it'll be like around the cat food bowls, right? Like looking for, you know, scraps.
Josh: Mature.
Alexis: And I thought, why aren't the cats getting this thing out of here? Like, what are they doing?
Josh: All right.
Alexis: Well, apparently they have done did it.
Brett: Planting a long game.
atack2010: The cats and coyotes have formed an alliance.
Alexis: Well, I found a bunch of babies the other day in a bucket and only one was
Josh: Baby raccoon.
Brett: Wait, to be clear, baby, what?
Josh: Humans?
atack2010: Awesome.
Alexis: baby Baby possums.
Brett: Possum.
Alexis: there are no There are no baby humans at the Sheffield residence.
atack2010: OK, OK.
Josh: Okay.
Brett: Oh, baby paw. Oh, I wasn't thinking. guy I didn't know, baby, you were talking about cats talking about mammals.
atack2010: Buckets of babies.
Alexis: ah So I was moving buckets, wash buckets the other day. And there were, uh, I was like, something smells real bad. I thought it was like a weird stinky bucket because that happens a lot. And, uh, for like floral buckets, they get, they get weird.
Brett: Oh, yeah. yeah
Alexis: But so I'm like, move the buckets and I go to grab this big yellow bucket. And I'm like, Oh, you know, there's movement in there. And, um, and I looked down in it and there's a baby possum. that looked fine and alive and then there's two dead baby possums and i don't know how long they've been dead um i will but well i like possums yeah i uh but i went i set the i set the other one free and you know we're cool we're chill um
Brett: Oh, God, you're starting on such a dark note here.
Josh: and mean
atack2010: Yeah, I mean.
Brett: I love possums.
Josh: I know the flower farm and it's like possum destruction.
Brett: I'm feeling sad.
atack2010: Wow, yeah.
Brett: Well, there will be flowers for the funeral, at least. That's the good news.
Brett: Oh, I'm not saying that you did anything messed up. i'm just I'm just observing the effect it's having on me to imagine these
atack2010: from our stupid old madness.
Alexis: Yeah, sorry. good Would you rather me tell you about the black vultures that are stalking me, or?
atack2010: You're the possum.
Josh: They can sense you're burning out.
Brett: ah To be clear to be clear has anyone else seen the vultures Alexis?
Josh: All right.
Alexis: I have photographs.
atack2010: Or is it just you?
Josh: Yeah, it's just like the black dog of the highway.
Alexis: I have
Brett: yeah Are the vultures in the room with us now?
Alexis: photographs.
Alexis: Yeah, so i they they've been
Brett: Wow
Alexis: I like raptors and birds and they're cool, but these ones have been being a little, a little creepy, but I think we've, they're the, I believe the young ones. So we have an old tobacco shipping shed in the back that's fallen down.
Josh: Mm.
Alexis: and um since we've lived there a few years, there's ah black vultures that nest in there. And so we'll see the fuzzy, ugly babies that you know run around.
Brett: mean
Josh: Yeah, yeah.
Alexis: And so there's been one or two that have been around lately, and they'll just sit on the fence like near me in the fields and just like watch.
Josh: Mm.
Alexis: And then the dogs see them, and they you know freak out. and ah But it was it was they don't leave. They just watch me.
Josh: Yeah.
Alexis: And I'm like, hey there.
Josh: Well, there's like two things they could be communicating, right? One is they expect you to keel over and your dinner, which are probably your, but there's also the one that like, you're a primate and a predator and they think maybe you're going to kill something and leave it behind.
Brett: Hmm.
Alexis: Yeah, true, fair.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis: Yeah, I'm i'm wondering. i don't Or maybe they've just been waiting on the cats to feed them possums. I don't know.
Josh: could be
Brett: Depends on the the proportion of time you've spent like in doing battle cries in the field versus laying on the ground whimpering, you know, it's like they're like, if yeah.
Josh: yeah
Alexis: I was a little worried.
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: right
atack2010: It's ah it's those audio cues that are very important.
Josh: ah Maybe they're finding these like dead possums in your wake and they're like, oh, pay dirt.
atack2010: Yeah.
Brett: yeah
atack2010: Yes.
Brett: Is she ailing or is she an alpha?
atack2010: Yeah.
Brett: We don't know.
Alexis: yeah
Josh: like
atack2010: yeah
Alexis: The, uh, the corgis are not pleased and they are much bigger than the corgis. So that's been an interesting, uh, I'm like, please, please don't, please don't terrorize the large birds.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis: Thanks. Um, so they sit up on the telephone poles and like stare down at me and I'm like, Hey guys.
Brett: Wow.
atack2010: I feel like there's a case study in wildlife management and her on your own, your place. I just feel like there is.
Alexis: Um, yeah.
Josh: Yeah, it sounds like Yeah,
atack2010: Yeah. I mean, did these are, these are fringe case scenarios that I'm not prepared to discuss.
Alexis: Well, and so when I said it was on topic today, it's because for for you listener, we we're talking about managing wildlife in your you know gardens or your fields.
atack2010: I'm just saying.
Josh: which
atack2010: wildlife
Josh: that
Alexis: We had a request for that. So thank you for asking. And then it just seemed really timely because I stumbled across half of a dead possum this morning. so
Josh: yeah which
Brett: And so we're we're, we're differentiating from like insects and it's sort of, I guess mostly mammals in our neck of the woods, but it vertebrates.
atack2010: that is vertebrates maybe mammals yeah there we go yeah i don't know we've we've covered marsupials already too so hey you know let's get specific okay
Josh: Mm -hmm.
Alexis: Right.
Josh: And it sounds like birds, birds and man.
Brett: Oh, ready.
Josh: Yeah, yeah.
Brett: Those are the ones that, those are the ones that warm themselves or no, they're no, sorry.
Josh: Not the arthropods.
Brett: That's the vertebrates. Yeah. G'day, little possum.
atack2010: I mean, if we include the insect past, we could have our own 10 part series on that because, yeah.
Josh: Mm -hmm.
Brett: So we're focusing on stuff that has ah has ah has a backbone.
Alexis: yeah We'll leave the insects to Dr.
atack2010: Yes, it's not afraid of anything.
Alexis: Larson and his Arthropod podcast. so
Brett: Yes.
Josh: the
atack2010: Good stuff.
Josh: Well the half consumed or half of a possum one leads me to believe that you have other animals on the property like possibly I was wondering if you had issues with like kind of wild dogs or koi dogs or any of those kind of like canines romping around besides your two corkeys.
atack2010: Mm -hmm.
Alexis: Uh, we have, ah yeah, we do have some coyotes around.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: I've never seen them on the property, but they've, you know, at least sounded pretty close. Um, close enough that the dogs get a little freaked out, but, uh, yeah.
atack2010: You know. And do you guys have like woodland tracks or I guess I should use the term corridor here, wildlife corridor. You have any of those around your farm? I mean, a lot of times people that mention that they have those, they have a you know greater possibility of having wildlife damage.
Alexis: Yeah, there's ah there's a good there's a lot of deer. We do have a lot of deer in the area and ah you know knock on wood.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: hope we Even though I've found footprints and like I just found some footprints in my cover crop little area, ah but they've not really seemed to bother stuff.
Josh: Hmm.
atack2010: Mm -hmm
Alexis: I don't know if it's just because they're really passing through and they're not they don't feel safe.
Josh: Hmm.
atack2010: They're not munching down on cover crops or anything Yeah Yeah Mm
Alexis: Yeah, I don't know if they feel safe right there in the out in the open, but there's a big alfalfa field ah farm across the street from me and in the mornings I'll see them.
Josh: Yeah.
Alexis: going running through there.
Josh: Well, you have that pond out there, which I would think functions as kind of like a Bucky's or whatever.
Alexis: Yeah, we have babies. Yeah, yeah, there's a ba there's babies. we We have to be careful certain times of year because there's babies that bed down um and we'll find them around baby deer.
atack2010: -hmm
Brett: Baby deer.
atack2010: so you you baby dear buckets of babies we've already asked yes baby animal do do do do yeah
Josh: yeah
Alexis: Baby deer, baby vulture, baby possum. We talked about it all.
Brett: Gotcha. Any baby sharks?
Alexis: a pe
Brett: Did it, did it, did it? Oh, I'm sorry.
Alexis: ah Alligator turtles.
Brett: Oh, alligator snapping little snappers?
atack2010: trump
Alexis: Close.
Alexis: That's why I can't have ducks.
Brett: Oh my gosh.
Josh: Mm -hmm.
Brett: It's like baby Bowser from Mario.
Josh: Yeah, right.
Alexis: yeah yeah Yeah, that's why I can't have ducks.
Brett: Oh, man.
atack2010: You have like wild kingdom out on your farm.
Alexis: so you know For someone who really doesn't have any woods, it is kind of weird.
atack2010: It sounds like Alexis you have, but, but you have farms nearby.
Alexis: but um yeah Yeah, the water.
Josh: ah It's that kind of wooded little fragment with the pond, it seems like. It's like the spot.
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: Like, that's where I would hang out, you know?
Brett: Have you ever?
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: there's
Brett: you ah You'll have, I'm guessing like trail cams and stuff.
Josh: Just like in the sludge.
Brett: Have you ever set them up like on the pond, on and around the pond just to see what the deal is?
Alexis: Yeah, we have minks. We have some minks out there.
Josh: Ooh, cool.
Alexis: The cats have brought us some minks.
Brett: Oh.
Alexis: Um, again, why I can't have ducks. Uh, so we know that there's minks down there.
Brett: Wow.
Alexis: Actually Tyler was, uh, like duck hunting off the pond or like for geese, I guess, but, uh, and he said he was sitting there, you know, and he's whatever and something like,
Brett: Hmm.
Alexis: ah went like crawled over his foot and like kind of freaked him out and he looks down it's a mink and then like he freaked out and the mink freaked out and like it was a whole thing so um yeah I was like you were asleep weren't you that's why it felt comfortable yeah
Josh: cool Cool.
Josh: yeah if i
atack2010: That's some good camouflage. Good, good camouflage clothing, I'm guessing. and Yeah.
Josh: It's like 3am, he's in a ghillie suit, been unconscious for 90 minutes.
Alexis: Pretty much, pretty much. Um, but yeah, so I, I mean, voles and moles, I know I get a lot of calls on those and I would say if I've had so far in my farming experience and I'm not growing vegetables, so I don't think I have quite the pressure, uh, that, you know, they're not quite as interested in, in flowers.
atack2010: Hmm.
atack2010: And those things are different, voles and moles, right? You might want to, yeah.
Alexis: Mm -hmm. Yeah. Voles, they're, they're very similar, but voles are more like a field mouse that doesn't have a tail. Um, so that's the, how,
atack2010: And they don't have the same burrows as moles do, do they? The voles do not.
Josh: Okay.
Alexis: I don't know. I don't think so. they kind of They're like what right on the surface.
atack2010: Yeah, right on top of the other right on top of it.
Alexis: yeah
atack2010: Usually when I get phone calls of people that you know, regarding bowls, it's number one been ah winter with a lot of snow because they will get under there and they can have like multiple liters of babies per year.
Brett: Thank you.
Alexis: Yeah. Mm -hmm.
atack2010: And when they're protected under snow, it's going to be
Alexis: Because they're a mouse, yeah.
atack2010: you know bad years for voles if you have them in the area because they're protected but ah the other if you have large clumps of like a grass field grass they can get under there and burrow as much as they want through the grass right on top of and they're very distinct right on top of the through the sod scruff But if you have a lot of protected areas where like owls and hawks and natural predators can't get to them, that's almost always the case when I go out and do an assessment. It's where you have some of these situations where there's a lot of cover.
Josh: Mm hmm.
atack2010: Then you have vole problems, vole with a V, V -O -L -E.
Alexis: Yeah. I see, I see vol problems in people who um are using a plastic culture system of some kind.
Josh: Hmm.
Alexis: So landscape fabric that they're not removing every year.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: So, you know, large blueberry, you know, production or like I use it in my fields or um laying down tarps. So a lot of people kill off. We've talked about it before, cover crops with, you know, silage tarps or things like that. and they'll be under there. So when you pull those back and you see these little indent tunnels, you know, they're not all the way underground.
Josh: Mm -hmm
Alexis: Those are vole tracks. And I have a Corgi who will eat those voles as you pull the tarp back. So yeah.
atack2010: Those are one of the things for commercial orchards that sends a chill up, you know, the commercial orchards.
Josh: Nice
Brett: Yeah. Root tree is this. Yeah.
atack2010: Yeah, for fruit trees, because voles, their diet is more like bulbs and plant matter itself, whereas a mole is more grubs and earthworms, things like that.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
atack2010: So they... A lot of times we say mole and vole, but they're completely different. What they eat is completely different in their tunnels.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
atack2010: Everything is different about those. But what orchards have found out their golden solution to that is they just have gravel pads many times around them the young trees. And um that makes an area that the vole has to cross and that allows predators to do the work.
Josh: Yeah, right.
atack2010: And it's amazing. I remember the first time I ever said, well, what's all the gravel around everything for? there was a couple different reasons, but the one I keyed in on was that it's ah areas that voles absolutely do not like to cross. And if they don't like to cross that you can keep them away from your young trees and they'll tend to girdle young fruit trees and in the tree just dies ah wherever it's girdled at.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
Josh: Right.
atack2010: But I thought that was interesting. That was a very low impact sort of habitat modification. We talk a lot about ah habitat modification, but that was just a simple thing that they did and no more vole problems.
Brett: Thank you.
atack2010: So it's interesting.
Alexis: My favorite thing.
Brett: I was, I was sitting on my patio this morning, back patio.
Alexis: Go ahead, Brett.
Brett: We have a lot of natural habitat in our backyard for all kinds of things. And I was just sitting there and I saw this vole pop out onto the edge of the patio and it's running along, sneaking kind of along the edge of stuff, trying to get from one section to another. And then it just runs directly into my foot. And then it starts squealing, going crazy takes off.
atack2010: I don't think...
Brett: Like, what did you, and I was like, you ran into me. I don't know what you want me to do here, but, uh, Yeah, I yeah, well, I think you did it by shoe.
Josh: He's like, that's where you're going, buddy.
Alexis: Right, yeah.
atack2010: I don't think this suits you real well.
Alexis: Rude.
atack2010: Yeah, that's funny.
Brett: it's a well they It's almost like, it's not exactly perfect, but like it's almost like a if you took put it on a spectrum, and on the one end of the spectrum was the like ah a traditional kind of field grave, little field mouse, and the other end of the spectrum is a mole, it kind of looks like you almost averaged the two to some extent.
Alexis: Mhm.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: There's certain attributes of a vole from each of those, and um yeah, they're
atack2010: Yes.
Alexis: Mhm.
atack2010: yeah Yeah.
Brett: weird looking little little guys uh yeah but they they see a little better than a mole but not as well as a mouse or me apparently
Alexis: Terror's potential problems?
Alexis: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: So if you see these tracks right along through sod, that's right on top of that, just kind of, they kind of just move stuff around and make tunnels right at the surface level.
Alexis: and so
atack2010: And you can see that they're not really tunnels. They're just kind of pushing through the sod. And that's one of those things you can't really, I guess you technically could fence them out, but we don't fence for voles instead what, you know, because specifically commercial producers do, um, if they have plastic culture operations, even beyond orchards. is that they try to, ah the ones I've worked with, we try to talk a lot about modifying the corridors around, keeping everything mode really close if you have a problem, and then hoping that you see owls and hawks around, because that will take care of your problem.
Brett: Okay.
Alexis: Yeah. I've told people to put up Raptor purchase. So like, um, I know that there are like baits, right?
atack2010: Yeah, yeah.
Alexis: There are some poisons, but a lot of the time when you're dealing with a little bit of a smaller grower, but sometimes the big ones as well, they already have, you know, a cat population or, you know, they have dogs and they don't want to risk putting out poison because, um, and, you know, just thinking about.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: about those bigger predators.
Josh: Mm hmm.
Alexis: um If you poison the food source, you poison ah those predators. so ah But putting up raptor perches has been good um advice.
Brett: Mhmm.
Alexis: And I tell people, like if you see a snake, you don't necessarily have to kill the snake. I mean, obviously, if it's poisonous, you probably don't want it. But I know in our area of Kentucky, like we don't really have poisonous snakes. So like you know if you could just let it go, it will help with your population of rodents.
atack2010: Yeah, they're probably there. They have to have a food source. So if they have a food source, that means you may have rodents in the area. So ah they're not always a bad thing.
Brett: Yeah, I think the the the general, you know, we can kind of maybe get this little part of the discussion out of the way early is the like the rodenticides, the things that the poisons that that these things eat, they don't, it's not like they eat them and then die immediately right then, then and there.
Alexis: Right.
atack2010: extra
Josh: and degrade and become nothing.
Brett: Right.
Alexis: Yeah.
Brett: there's a there there I think in general, it is ah even more than some other pesticides, at least as far as I've seen and in Extension recommendations, is like a very, very last solution um because of the bioaccumulation up through food chains.
Alexis: Yes.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: So like something finds the rodent, eats the
atack2010: Bye.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: the rodent that has the poison in it and then maybe get sick itself, then it gets eaten by something else. And so you're you're sort of, there's this butterfly effect of that rodenticide within the food chain to these really um sensitive like apex predators like you're talking about where they're at the very top where a lot of this stuff can accumulate up and and for like a raptor or or something or or an owl or something like that.
atack2010: and And this is along those same lines, Brett, ah that that you're discussing, is that the number one thing we always say is you, you know, first of all, you identify what is causing your issue, whatever that issue may be, whatever kind of damage. Number one is identify positively. You know what you're dealing with number two is find out the status of that. ah You know if you're looking for lethal options like um you know something to dispatch that animal whether it be a 12 gauge slug or or whatever the first thing you need to do before you take extreme measures I know that it's upsetting.
Alexis: just
Brett: No.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: ah to some people when you go out there and half of your garden is destroyed by deer overnight. But the first thing you do ah do is identify what is causing you the problem. And the second thing is I usually encourage people to make a call to the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife, specifically their field biologist.
Alexis: Yeah.
atack2010: And we'll try to remember to put a link and in the ah podcast for that. But they can discuss what your like lethal control options, if that's what you're interested in or relocation options, which relocation is an interesting topic.
Alexis: Mhmm.
Josh: Mm
atack2010: uh, in itself, but that's what you need to do first. It's like what Brett's talking about.
Alexis: Mhmm.
atack2010: If you're involving yourself in some of those, those more lethal methods, you need to know the status like vultures, Alexis, you brought that up and aren't they a protected status?
Brett: Mm
atack2010: You have to get permits.
Alexis: The black -headed vultures are a protected status, yeah.
atack2010: ah Yeah, that that's a, that's a good, that's a, that's a good example of, uh, um, an animal that you need to look into before you take any kind of control.
Alexis: yeah
atack2010: action on those.
Josh: -hmm
atack2010: And there's other animals like that too. So um before we get too deep into the discussion, know the animal and know what its ah protect protected class is and do work with those fish and and wildlife biologists.
Brett: hmm
atack2010: They're really, really good. And I think there's one assigned to every county in the state of Kentucky. They cover multiple counties, but every grouping of county has someone that you can call.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
atack2010: So do that.
Alexis: Yeah.
atack2010: What else?
Alexis: yeah
atack2010: Uh, we've, uh, covered what we've, uh, you talked a little bit about deer moles and voles, which those can be frustrating, but we have lots of cats around.
Brett: to to To circle back real quick, to circle back real quick on the moles thing, Ray.
atack2010: Yeah, go ahead. Hmm.
Brett: You talk about voles having real strong implications for like orchards, for instance, or for young trees.
atack2010: Hmm.
Brett: Do moles, are moles, not to downplay it, but are they moles mostly an aesthetic problem, or is there ah is there a reason?
Josh: Mm
atack2010: Yeah. There is some commercial problems, uh, with moles being present.
Josh: hmm.
atack2010: If you obviously, if you have a soccer field and you have moles in there, I mean, you don't want hospital bills racking up if you're a commercial entity or a school system.
Brett: Somebody twisting twisting their ankle or busting their.
atack2010: So there's. That's it. And that is, uh, I rolled down my Hill the other day because I have moles all in the backyard.
Brett: Yeah.
atack2010: I have a lot of clover and stuff. And I was actually, I was actually going down to my garden and read my son. My 10 year old ran out there and said, you okay, dad? And I'm like, I'm fine. My pride is broken.
Alexis: I.
Josh: Let me just lay here for a minute.
Brett: What?
Alexis: Do you all have any like outdoor cameras that might have caught that or.
atack2010: and No, we we actually we have a ring camera, but I rolled past that.
Brett: now
atack2010: It's a steep slope. I wrote, thank goodness, or Jennifer would have had that posted online already.
Brett: but just to Just to paint the picture of what went through my mind when you just said that. Ray and I were at a Halloween party a couple years ago and Ray was dressed up as Bilbo Baggins. um
Josh: Okay.
atack2010: Yes, I was.
Brett: ah Like one of the best costumes I have ever seen ah and he and So I'm imagining you sort of walking down the hill barefoot in your Bilbo Baggins costume with a with a lit pipe, you know, just sort of going along with maybe like a Exactly and just eating it rolling down the hill and
atack2010: I was barefooted. I was.
Alexis: I'm going on an adventure.
atack2010: I was.
Josh: that
atack2010: I did. Well, let me want let me let's just stamp this up a little bit more. I was eating a nectarine from my tree and it went flying and I went flying. We have a nectarine tree. And that was one of the only good nectarines from that tree. And I was very upset, which yeah moles.
Alexis: No strike again.
Brett: the mold
Josh: Hehehehe.
Brett: moles are off in the corner like we got him
atack2010: Yeah, got him.
Brett: we got him
atack2010: So that is one case scenario where you do have to worry about moles. It is mainly an aesthetic, I guess, to answer your question.
Alexis: Yeah, the only the only time I can think of it as like a real crop problem is if you've got bulbs in an area and they're tunneling underneath the bulbs or underneath even the plant sets, they like can create like a cavity or they'll push the bulbs up out of the um you know area.
atack2010: It's mainly aesthetic, yeah.
atack2010: The dryer cavity does terrible things. Yeah.
Brett: The moles are off in the corner like, we got him.
atack2010: yeah
Brett: We got him.
Alexis: But usually it's not like a widespread problem and normally it's something you can fix if you catch it ahead of time. so It's not as bad as like when you pick up a tulip bulb and it's half eaten because a vole has eaten it.
atack2010: Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis: um
Brett: Yeah, for those guys, i've ah for the moles, I've seen the spring -loaded spike things that you put in the ground.
atack2010: yeah
Alexis: Harpoon traps.
Brett: Oh gosh, I didn't know they were called that. Call me call me Ishmael.
atack2010: Yeah, harpoon traps.
Alexis: Yeah.
Josh: yeah The white mole, get him!
Brett: Let's go.
atack2010: The gray white mole.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis: The great white mole.
Josh: but
atack2010: Yes. ah but And keep in mind, dear listeners, that in some states you have to get a permit before you even trap moles.
Brett: yeah
atack2010: So check the status in your state.
Alexis: Oh, wow. Didn't know that.
atack2010: There's like a ah trapping permit that you have to get online.
Alexis: Did I ever tell you? When Adam and I, we don't have to cover this, but I think it's kind of funny. um We were on like an NPR channel and ah we were taking listener you know listener calls and Adam is the frankf Franklin County Horticulture Agent. And someone called in and said, i have you know I have this mole problem. What do we do? And Adam and I looked at each other and we were like, well, do you live in the city? Because if not, you can shoot them. And that did not go over well with that audience.
atack2010: Yeah.
Brett: I scorched earth.
Alexis: So, we got a lot of hate from that at the time Twitter was um not happy with us.
Josh: ah
Josh: so
Brett: Oh wow.
atack2010: It was a thing. It was, it was a will real thing.
Brett: e
atack2010: Yeah. You just went straight to the nuclear option.
Alexis: but ah
atack2010: I mean, yeah.
Josh: Alright, get your 38 near holo points and bang bang.
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: good
Brett: Yeah, and maybe maybe this is a good time to just take a brief pause and i'm I'm as guilty of this as any of the rest of us here.
atack2010: Maybe.
Josh: ah
Brett: We are not all about just murdering ah animals for no reason, right?
Josh: maybe
Alexis: No, absolutely not.
Brett: I mean, where there is a there is an element of like destruction of stuff or there's there, you know, can cause real problems with commercial, you know, plantings or things like that.
Josh: Yes.
Alexis: Absolutely not.
Brett: I think there are some times where people can some um make a make a mountain out of a molehill, if I may.
Alexis: Mm -hmm, I have, yep.
atack2010: and Nice, very nice, very nice.
Brett: ah And, you know, it's important to kind of know that and have some perspective on that, especially like, in our case, where we're planting all of this crazy, all all like dense amounts of biomass are in our backyard right now, all kinds of flowers and big leaves and perennials and everything else.
atack2010: Mm.
atack2010: Hot sugar things, yeah.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: I mean, we're, in a way we're asking for having a bunch of chipmunks and having a bunch of voles and having a bunch of other things.
Alexis: Mhm.
Josh: Right.
Brett: and And for us, the benefits of that outweigh the the downsides for the most part.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: um And so like, it's just, there are ways of dealing with stuff. And I think for me, one of the take homes is like, don't just put out poison.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: It's, it's, ah you know, and and obviously there's other methods of exclusion and other things we can talk about with other the other stuff too.
Alexis: Mhm.
Brett: But um yeah, it is.
Alexis: And I know a lot of people really like relocation and I think that's where the importance of talking to that fish and wildlife biologist, or, you know, you can contact, we have wildlife biologists at UK as well that are in extension, but um contacting them because often it's a death sentence to relocate animals, right?
atack2010: Yeah. Mhmm.
Alexis: And so you're leaving them and, you know, maybe you'll end up with a bunch of baby possums that are in a bucket in your barn because mom didn't come back to take care of it because it was relocated.
atack2010: Mhmm.
Alexis: or Some things are some animals relocate better than others. And so you really just can cause a lot of problems to an ecosystem by, you know, bringing 10 raccoons and letting them loose in the park.
Josh: right
Alexis: So, so yeah.
Josh: yeah
atack2010: It's good to work with your wildlife biologist on that for sure.
Josh: and
atack2010: That's a great point.
Josh: know
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: Well, in my experience, like I've always, or I've long kind of conceptualized it.
atack2010: yeah
Josh: It's like, if you remove individuals from, you know, ah problematic individuals, let's say you are harassing your garden, there's still an ecological niche there, right? That it's just inviting somebody else to take its place.
atack2010: Yeah, it's going to get filled. Yeah.
Josh: And depending on it, you know, it can be pretty rapid. And then, you know, what are you doing? Are you getting to garden or are you in the traffic business? You know, where are you spending your time?
Alexis: Yeah. Yeah.
atack2010: yeah I worked some with ah one of my internships was with a wildlife biologist and he said something that stuck with me for many years and he said the first the first concept with controlling nuisance wildlife either commercially or in your backyard he said is ah do it early before they get a taste of the good stuff he said du he said if it's one concept one takeaway concept whatever you're going to do if it's fencing
Alexis: Yeah.
atack2010: or it's some kind of topical application, you know, it's to do it.
Alexis: Preventative.
atack2010: He said, because if you get an animal that's motivated by the taste of your beautiful sweet corn and it knows what that sweet corn tastes like, he said, no amount of fencing is going to keep that.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: day It's going to try to jump an eight foot fence or it's going to try to go through the electric fence webbing that you put up. So that that stuck with me.
Josh: Right.
atack2010: He said, if if it's one thing you do, he said, is train animals early before they get a taste of whatever they're wanting to get into. And I found that to be true over the, you know, my years in extension is that I've taken, you know, scenarios that are been pretty much very similar where there's a crop that, um, you know, the animal wants to get into.
Josh: All
atack2010: And one crop has had the fence up early and they've put peanut butter on the pie pans and the deer comes up and licks it and gets a nice little zap. I bet that was interesting. Before the crop is actually ripe, whatever that crop was, but the animal associates that area with a negative incentive, a negative experience.
Josh: right.
Josh: All right.
atack2010: And then there's other scenarios where they would do that exact same process, but deer's already been into an area and been scarfing down strawberries or whatever it is that the deer was eating the sweet corn.
Alexis: Mmhmm.
atack2010: but they would run through the fence, literally run through it at that point. And the only difference is, is you've conditioned them early in one scenario and not the other.
Alexis: Mmhmm.
atack2010: So, um, it's, I mean, I might go through the, I might go through the fence myself.
Brett: Sometimes that that peaches and cream sweet corn tastes better than that electric fence hurts.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: right
Brett: Speaking of experience here.
Alexis: yeah
atack2010: Yeah. Oh yeah. You, you went straight on through it, haven't you, Brett? You went straight on through it.
Brett: Crashed on through it, wrapped myself up in a blanket.
Alexis: he He's, I'm imagining like a Kool -Aid man just running through the wall.
Brett: and yeah
atack2010: Oh yeah.
Brett: Yeah.
Josh: Oh yeah.
atack2010: Rolling through.
Alexis: um You know, one method that I have learned about recently, I don't know if any of you all have ever used it that seems a lot more simple because I know some people have You know, children or, you know, electric fence, which can be really, really successful isn't always the best way to go or it's really expensive to get one that, you know, runs on solar, bubble blah, blah, blah.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: But somebody told me about and still takes some effort, but is just a clear fishing line. And so putting it up early.
Josh: and
atack2010: Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis: And even for deer, it doesn't have to be, you know, high. We always think deer, we need a 12 foot fence, but, uh, sometimes again, if you get it early, you can put it at that chest height or like another one down low with their legs.
atack2010: They bump into it and they're like, what is this?
Alexis: And they, you don't market it or anything, which is the opposite of what I would think.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: You don't want them to know it's there because when they hit it, it freaks them out because they can't see anything.
Josh: Hmm.
Alexis: And so then they're not in like the same thing for rabbits.
Josh: Hmm.
Alexis: You have to put it at a level where they're going to hit it. But a lot of the time, the fact that they can't see it is what freaks them out the most. Um, and I just thought that's a really inexpensive, relatively easy way to try, um, you know, doing and stuff like that.
atack2010: We, uh, my, my father did that and he would have like two lines of that ran three foot apart, one on the inside. So if they got, they got scared and went forward, usually they don't tear, don't they get scared and they back up.
Alexis: Yeah.
atack2010: Um, but, uh, if the first one didn't get them, the second would, I guess, finish them off their, their mental state off and then they would leave the area.
Alexis: I can't take it anymore.
atack2010: But yeah, but our birds were a little bit different when he would have trouble with like crows going down the row, uh, picking out young corn seedlings, he would.
Josh: No.
Alexis: Well, that's true.
Alexis: Mm -hmm.
Josh: No.
atack2010: you know, you know, top high pants on their reflective tape or even like little wind chime things, things that would move, uh, and may i have motion CDs that work great.
Alexis: Mm -hmm.
Josh: Yeah, and reflect light. Like CDs was like a thing when I was doing that in 2007, because it was like, I don't need CDs anymore.
Alexis: Yeah, yeah.
atack2010: Yeah. But, uh, no, you know, I, I bet you wish you had that Nirvana one back though, didn't you?
Josh: I've got 50 of them.
atack2010: Yeah, for sure. But anything that makes movement like that, I guess it, But, you know, things like crows, they're so smart, they will eventually, from my experience, get used to it, yeah.
Brett: Yeah, it's like trying to keep a person out.
Josh: Yeah. All right.
Alexis: and
atack2010: And even if you're using a scarecrow, you have to move it pretty often.
Josh: Mm -hmm.
atack2010: um So that's that's some habitat modifications you can do, like the Alexis was talking more like fencing, but there's some other things you can do. I was trying to think like, commercially we use like propane.
Alexis: The water thing that senses movement that.
atack2010: Oh, yes.
Josh: Oh, yeah. Mm hmm.
atack2010: Oh yeah, it's one of my favorites, so especially for cats and dogs, because they can be a nuisance wildlife.
Alexis: and so
atack2010: kind of digging in my garden. We have every neighborhood cat down there and it's a giant litter box and I'm not happy. ah But it's amazing what those ah those sprinkler and they're actually they make those don't they Alexis that are designed just for wildlife control.
Alexis: yeah Yeah.
Josh: Mm hmm.
atack2010: Their purpose built for that and yeah and it just jets and I guess rabbits don't like getting shot in the face with a high velocity stream of water and I love to watch them when they just run away.
Alexis: Yeah, it puts a jet.
atack2010: Yeah those
Josh: I know it's hard to like imagine like because when I think of dogs and that, like wild dogs, it'd be like, all right.
atack2010: yeah They just, yeah, they're down there chilling in it.
Alexis: like
atack2010: Yeah. So yeah, those are great. That's actually one of my favorites and it, and it makes a noise, a little bit of ah a noise with the water stream coming through there. Um, but, uh, that that's a great option. I like that one a lot. Uh, and it works particularly well with cats. Cats just do not like the water and I really like it for that. Yeah.
Brett: Maybe, you know, maybe this is a good chance to just give a shout out to a little resource bank within the UK's UK extensions.
atack2010: That's a good one.
Brett: ah It's in the Department of Forestry and Natural Resources tends to be the ones who put out a lot of the stuff related to wildlife management in different contexts.
Alexis: Mm -hmm.
Brett: And so um I kind of became more aware of that when because there's implications for wildlife getting in as far as food safety stuff for ah for
Alexis: Mm -hmm.
atack2010: ah The gap audits, yeah.
Brett: the Food Safety Modernization ah Act, as well as the good agricultural practices programs. And so there we could put a ah link to that, but there's all kinds of stuff about dealing with damage from and problems from vultures and squirrels and ah beavers, even.
Alexis: Muskrats.
atack2010: I forget.
Brett: Brief brief side note ah before we move on.
atack2010: Uh -oh.
Brett: And I can't remember who told me about this originally. ah It might have been my brother, Logan. ah If not, we'll just give him credit.
Alexis: Shout out Logan anyways.
Brett: Um, there was a program back in the forties wherein they relocated.
Josh: Mm. Raise heyday.
Brett: Yeah. Right. You might've been involved in this. You might've been flying one of the planes. ah Um, that trapped beavers were relocated to Idaho, I believe.
Alexis: Mm -hmm.
atack2010: It's very possible. It's very possible.
Brett: and they were dropped out of a plane with parachutes and upon landing the box sprung open.
Alexis: Mm -hmm.
Brett: The survival rate for the beavers was actually higher than other forms of relocation. It generally was more cost effective than other forms of relocation. There is actually a Wikipedia article, I'm going to look it up right now, ah for the beaver drop.
Josh: in The great Idaho Beaver drop of 46.
Brett: 1948. In 1948, an Idaho Department of Fish and Game program to relocate beavers from northwestern Idaho to the Chamberlain Basin in central Idaho. The program involved moving 76 beavers, 1776, 76 American program, love it, ah and parachuting them down to the ground.
Josh: Yes.
Josh: Mm -hmm.
Alexis: America.
atack2010: It's like the beaver squadron.
Brett: The program was and started to address complaints about property damage.
atack2010: I mean, it's amazing the picture.
Brett: Parachuting beavers proved to be more cost effective and also decreased beaver mortality rates compared with alternative methods for relocation. So if you're interested, there's ah and there's a little picture of the beaver in the box as it landed. um
Alexis: Short tweet to the point.
Josh: I gotta see this.
atack2010: What are they comparing the mortality rate to like parachutes versus no parachutes?
Brett: Yeah.
atack2010: I mean,
Josh: I know, right?
atack2010: yeah
Alexis: Oh, we didn't know beavers couldn't fly.
Brett: Yeah, science was big back then, so you had to have a control group. ah Yeah.
atack2010: We were successful.
Josh: Oh yeah, it's each individual beaver had its own little box, oh my lord.
Brett: Yeah.
Josh: if That's not what I picture.
Brett: And they probably they really like grabb the they grabbed the box and then went and built a dam with it. Like, yeah, he shipped me in with some supplies.
Alexis: Got this.
Brett: Heck, yeah.
atack2010: I like it, but yeah.
Josh: And that is the story of why Idaho is so arid.
Brett: Yeah, but beavers do cause they can cause lots of problems with like flooding and other issues of all kinds of things.
Josh: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Brett: And we don't have it a ton.
Alexis: cutting down all your trees.
Josh: All right.
Brett: And yeah, in my part of in my neck of the woods, we don't have it a ton. But there's other you know, other places where it's a really huge deal.
Josh: Um, where, where I was when I was in Harlan County, I liked the northern slope of Pine Mountain. That was probably the most wildlife pressure that I saw impacting systems. I mean, the deer situation was like, forget it, that you could be outside with a machine gun and it doesn't matter. Like, they're just going to keep coming.
Alexis: They're like, what are you going to do about it?
Josh: um But we also had a beaver pond that would, you know, periodically they'd really get after it and flood like a whole area, which, you know, we didn't grow in there, but they historically had. So you could see how it impact, you know, an old potato field.
atack2010: So.
Josh: And they also had something that I hadn't experienced before. um There was some damage to a high tunnel when I first got there.
Alexis: Hm.
Josh: And I was like, hey, what's that from? And they're like, oh, a black bear came rolling through and just took a swipe at this. And I was like, cool, I don't really, I didn't learn in school how to come up with a bare exclusion practice.
Alexis: It. Uh, what?
Josh: um Yeah.
atack2010: We had to deal with that with ah bees when they were after the larva in Floyd County and and there's a lot of hives destroyed and we had to, that there's a system where you can, you know, run electric and do the negative incentive with dry boxes and condition them.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: But yeah, it's a big, it's a big issue there with things like bears that maybe we don't so much think about here in the central part of the state, but we're getting bears here.
Josh: Hmm.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: two And I know many of you guys that are listening to other parts of the country may be accustomed to this, but I don't think about that a lot, but I've had to deal with that.
Alexis: and sir
Josh: yeah
atack2010: And things like elk, when I was in the eastern part of the state, they they would just pull up a four -inch caliper tree that weighs 300 pounds and be chewing on the bark, just with it sticking out of their mouth because they're large animals.
Josh: Right. right
atack2010: When you get into special cases like that,
Alexis: You
atack2010: with like bears and elk and you know that that are under protected status. That's really important to then, we worked a lot in the east, like you're saying, Josh, where the pressure was really high.
Alexis: sure?
atack2010: ah It seems like that we worked a lot more there in those areas with the field biologist.
Josh: Yeah, there was yeah but we did have there was a guy in the community who did Bees for Honey and he had a whole like, might as well have been ADX Florence or something like that system of like scared, like electrification.
atack2010: um you know If there's a relocation effort or whatever you know we needed, yeah.
atack2010: Mm -hmm.
Josh: Like as a human, I didn't want to get near his hive boxes.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: Yeah.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: It's hard to pass.
atack2010: Yeah. It's serious.
Alexis: Um, so we haven't really talked about, I get, I know I get a lot of calls and people asking questions about like what to actually do about things like rabbits. I mean, we've mentioned like there's like the water thing, but you know, let's just say that someone has limited water access.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: Maybe they're using a pump and so they can't just like leave the city water on with a, you know, with the sensor. ah But, you know, they can either get something solar or, you know, like more of a just a physical barrier. What have you all seen that has been, you know, successful for something small like rabbits? I feel like that's pretty universal.
atack2010: Fencing is always like the best, obviously. It's the premium option, but it's always the best option. That was rule number two from the wildlife biologist I worked with. was One is you know get them conditioned early.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: Number two was fencing is always the best option, but it's the one that I think people do the least when it comes to something like deer because it's a six to eight foot recommendation.
Alexis: Most expensive. Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
atack2010: But with rabbits, you can build a much lower fence as long as that fence is attached very firmly to the ground. ah so Fencing for rabbits is much lower. um It's not like a deer fence.
Josh: yeah
atack2010: It has to be a minute ah you know around eight foot tall to be truly effective in those high pressure areas like Josh is talking about. So fencing is by far the best option in a lot of these scenarios. ah But don't the some of the taste repellents, which we've not really talked about, them the mint and the capsaicin and the putrid egg solids, there's lots of taste repellents.
Alexis: mhm mhm
atack2010: that you can use.
Josh: Right.
atack2010: And some of those are have rabbit labels on there. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of research in that area as far as to their true effectiveness. So your know your use case may vary. So there's fencing options that works great for rabbits.
Josh: Yeah.
Alexis: mhm mhm
atack2010: And then there's some of the taster pallets, I think.
Josh: what When I was farming in Georgia, we kind of went through this like ititeerative iter iterative process of like starting out with those quicker solutions like the you know repe ah chemical repellents, we'll call them.
Alexis: mhm
atack2010: Yeah, thirome and then all the others.
Alexis: Yeah.
Josh: um and And then there was another point where we got these like they were solar powered little attachments that you hung at sort of like predator eye level and they would make like a red a red light flash. I mean we kind of moved up all these different interventions and it's like I think we had talked about before where it's like you start out with something and yeah it's like effective for the first couple of days and then they figure it out and then you do the next thing.
atack2010: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Josh: and i the the other thing is some of those um like the liquid well the like the the one that's like whole egg solids i don't want to say a brand name but like that can also like attract others like it's like yeah that might keep away rabbits but like a raccoon's gonna be like oh what's going on over here and now right
atack2010: Yeah, the one that smells really bad.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
atack2010: Yeah.
atack2010: I think it's some of some of the blood repellents for rabbits, like ah that they use down south, the blood repellents where we pale the rabbits, but they will attract actually other predators.
Alexis: What's rotten over here?
Josh: Right, yeah.
Alexis: The coyotes, yeah.
atack2010: So, yeah.
Josh: like And so so we went through this whole season of like consistently trying these more like intensive interventions until we got to the fence with an electric line.
atack2010: um
atack2010: Mm hmm.
Josh: Now we had the infrastructure for that because we were also doing animals, so it's just like, forget it.
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: like We're building a little fence.
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: And so after having a really like lame summer of continually trying things and having to outsmart it, it's just like, i
Alexis: Yeah.
Josh: jump to the option right like if you can do the fence or some kind of exclusion like I definitely we talked about you know keeping ground cover as low as possible so there's no place to hide right yeah it's like in making that boundary so they have to cross it to get to your garden those are I think the gold standard
Alexis: Yeah.
Alexis: Mhmm.
atack2010: Yeah, that's like more like a Habitat modification. Yeah. Yeah.
atack2010: h And that's a great point. Yeah, you know and ah you guys have all alluded to it, but usually with wildlife control, from what I've seen, if you have a lot of pressure, it's a combination of exclusion, habitat modification, repellents.
Josh: Mmhmm.
atack2010: It's all of those things, especially in a commercial scenario where you may be getting audited. And wildlife you know has a lot of implications for commercial ah operations and food safety. In those cases, you're probably using more than one method. You're probably using you know fences along with Other things like the habitat modification LOMO and all that stuff and you know, allowing the predators in But it's usually not not one answer um I guess a case in point is my backyard garden. I moved the garden intention. I knew what I was doing when I did it, but
Alexis: Thank
atack2010: moved it from up close to the house and raised beds because it was too easy and was too productive so I want to move it over the hill in ground because that's a lot of work and I could possibly roll down the hill and hurt myself and I enjoy all of that but I also moved it closer to the creek where there's habitat for lots and lots of rabbits and not only did I
Josh: Mm hmm.
Alexis: you.
Josh: Oh, yeah. The wildlife interstate.
atack2010: Yeah, and not only did I do that, but I thought we had a podcast that motivated me to do Clover in my backyard, which rabbits love.
Josh: Mm
atack2010: So it's like a Beatrix Potter film in my backyard.
Josh: hmm.
atack2010: It's like Benjamin Bunyan is having a rave down there.
Josh: little watershed down action.
atack2010: Yes, exactly, exactly.
Josh: here
atack2010: jo But that's what's going on. But I kind of let them have their share. I did all of that knowing that I have a fence down there that I have a couple of holes under and I watch the rabbits come in and out. They've wore it out. uh rabbits come in and out of that I'm like fine and my wife likes to watch the rabbits and if she sees me down there doing something to harass the rabbits I will get harassed so I give and I guess it was you Brett that said you know you have to assess the damage you know you have to kind of put it into perspective
Josh: but
atack2010: and it's my home garden, it's not like a commercial operation, so I can accept a certain amount of damage, it's no big deal. ah To me, so the rabbits get their share, we have flowers down there in a small garden plot, and they eat certain things, they eat my cover crop down to the ground, but that they get their share, and I did all of that knowing that I would have more pressure down there, but I wanted to have a garden down there, it's pretty, I watch the rabbits, I watch the garden grow.
Josh: I don't know.
atack2010: it's what I do but I guess I did all that knowing that I was going to accept a certain amount of damage.
Alexis: just
atack2010: So that's that perspective I think you were talking about Brett as far as and obviously your decision matrix is going to be different if you're a commercial producer like you were talking about Josh that's a large operation and you're just getting tons of pressure and damage and that gets into your livelihood and that's a different set of decision making tools there.
Josh: Okay.
Alexis: Mmhmm.
atack2010: But it's interesting when you talk about wildlife damage you have to kind of as you're working with people, ask all of these questions. You have to you know ask a lot of questions to get to the point of getting some kind of plan together, whether it's a homeowner or a commercial operation.
Josh: Yeah.
Alexis: I've always wondered if, um so like, you know, your livestock guardian dogs, right? Can you have a ah vegetable crop guardian dog or are they really into more like a, we need a heartbeat in order for us.
atack2010: I don't know if they bond to tomatoes quite the same. Yeah, I don't know that they bond to a tomato.
Alexis: I didn't know if they were, um would just kind of patrol the outskirts of
Josh: Alright.
Josh: Ooh!
atack2010: I feel like we have cats, we have neighborhood cats that act in that role. It's like, yeah, the, the warrior series is about cat warrior cats.
Alexis: We have vegetable guardian cats.
atack2010: It's kind of like that. Yes. Guardian cats.
Josh: They do that, like where I was in Japan, they do that they have like gardens, but they also have like kind of at the they have these spots where essentially they have a movable doghouse. And then there's a dog on like a lunge line that allows them to go to the extent of sort of the garden. or they are placed in kind of relation to prevent like rabbits coming from the trees or whatever, right?
atack2010: Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis: Yeah, yeah.
Josh: And so like every garden that we, or every vegetable production system that we went to, um there's like a dog with a doghouse and it's like hanging out.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: Okay, cool, yeah.
atack2010: We did something. We extended our fence so our dog could patrol, but now she's made friends with the rabbits. It's just dumb, but we've got like a little house dog.
Alexis: Oh, Dinah.
atack2010: It's not the kind of utility dogs that Josh is talking about, but we did extend our fence down beyond the garden for, and that's one of the reasons, but we have a lot of neighborhood cats, which can be highly destructive on like native birds and rabbit populations and stuff like that.
Josh: Mm hmm.
atack2010: but Our dog does go down there. She likes to hang out down there where it's shady by the garden. And that does deter rabbi rabbits at certain times of the day. She doesn't stay out overnight. But yeah, that's a good point with ah the animals.
Brett: in In commercial contexts, there are some food safety implications for having dogs and cats and other animals intermingled and so it's just something to be aware of.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
Josh: Sure.
Alexis: Yeah.
atack2010: Yes. Yep. Commercially, it's a, once again, a yeah completely different set of ah questions you're gonna be asked on your you know food safety audit or you know if you're just doing a self audit.
Alexis: Mm hmm.
atack2010: yeah that That'll be a section on there, domestic and wildlife, both ah you know both both mammals, so absolutely.
Alexis: I was thinking, can I have a tulip guardian dog or ah because deer love tulips on just
Josh: I feel like that's what the core D was developed for.
Alexis: Tulip Guardian Dog, I feel like is worth its weight, but...
Brett: I mean, you could be the, I mean, if, if it doesn't work out functionally, there's definitely a, an Instagram niche for a tulip guardian dog where you can make it look like it works and, and, you know, self shirts.
atack2010: Yes.
Alexis: Specifically, we don't actually need it to herd anything.
atack2010: for its combat skills.
Alexis: It's more, yeah, combat skills.
atack2010: and
Josh: which
atack2010: Oh, I think so.
Alexis: I mean, that's all that matters.
atack2010: I think so. You can you can you can make that work.
Alexis: I can fake it till I make it.
Brett: That's right.
Alexis: Coming soon.
atack2010: i think ah Planting a, you know, if you have a garden and you're having trouble with, uh, you know, things like deer and rabbits, they certainly don't like to eat marigolds. I don't know of anything that likes to eat marigolds and there's just certain plants and you can look that up based on your zip code, deer resistant plants.
Alexis: Hmm.
Josh: Mmm.
atack2010: And that's it. I mean, like lavender, no deer in its right mind is going to eat lavender. Um, but they're just, yes.
Brett: You're saying like plant things that they don't want to eat as a strategy for success if nothing else works.
atack2010: If nothing else works and yeah you're trying to save face, then maybe plant those plants that ah that that they don't find palatable. Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: Yeah, I just meant I was like, Oh, well the miracle of like, keep a deer away and as it walks around and then eats everything else.
atack2010: And that that's another strategy.
atack2010: ah Oh, it's not going to, it's not going to keep it from it.
Alexis: Yeah.
Brett: Yeah.
atack2010: It's that you're substituting that for maybe plants that are more susceptible, but I wish that it would provide a a magical barrier. But unfortunately I don't think they do.
Alexis: what about the um What about the scent barriers? So like the coyote pee and stuff like that.
atack2010: Yeah. The mints.
Josh: yeah
atack2010: Yeah, you can get some of those.
Alexis: I'm not going to lie. I have a friend who has three young boys and she was complaining about how she can never keep the deer out of her out of her garden.
Josh: Yeah.
Alexis: And I said, well, it's just your home garden. You got three boys who like to go pee outside. Just tell them where they can and can't go.
Josh: yeah yeah They eat a lot of protein so it's gonna be like predator smelling.
Alexis: And you know, cause like,
Brett: It's gonna smell scary.
atack2010: Yeah, and there is there is the commercial protein stuff.
Josh: but
atack2010: Yeah, Josh, I've so i've seen that the protein repellents that it's just smells like animal protein.
Josh: Haha.
atack2010: So yeah, there you go, Alexis.
Josh: Haha.
Alexis: Mmhmm.
atack2010: Yeah.
Alexis: So.
atack2010: And that I guess that goes along the same thing. I used to there's a big craze many years ago, and I still see it every now and again. And it seems kind of morbid to me when I really think about it and I verbalize it now, but it's bags of hair, hung in pantyhose to get the human smell.
Josh: Hmm.
Alexis: Mmhmm.
atack2010: I've heard that. I know that it works for some people, other people it doesn't. And that's one of the points of the discussion today.
Josh: I know if I was trying to break into a garden and I saw lots of bags of hair, I'd be like, I don't like what's happening here.
atack2010: Bags of hair.
Alexis: I'm gonna pass.
atack2010: Yeah.
Josh: i don't I can't tell if these are trophies that are telling me to, you know, I'm next.
atack2010: Abandoned hope all ye who enter.
Alexis: ah I might be on a true crime podcast next, but not in the way you think.
atack2010: Yeah, yeah.
Josh: Right.
atack2010: Trying to get that smell in the area, I guess, whether it be pee or hair, I mean.
Alexis: Yeah, I've heard of people who, uh, like contact their local barber and get like all the waste hair and they sprinkle it around the edge of the garden, which is fine until it rains.
atack2010: Yeah, yeah.
Alexis: And then really the smell kind of dissipates after the rain, but there's that.
Josh: Yeah.
Brett: That was...
Josh: Well, and it's also free lice.
atack2010: Yeah.
Brett: Yeah.
atack2010: I don't know the effectiveness of any of a lot of these methods, yeah.
Brett: it was ah in the movie the and That was in the movie of The Rookie with Dennis Quaid. Do you guys remember that movie?
Alexis: Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: Where he's like an old guy who like has a renaissance of his career somehow or something.
atack2010: I do.
Alexis: Uh -huh.
Brett: there was There was part where they were trying to get grass to grow in the um in the outfield or something and they put the hair around it.
Alexis: Yeah.
Brett: and so you know you site It's just c site your source of The Rookie.
atack2010: Yeah, yeah.
Alexis: If Dennis Quaid doesn't.
Josh: Right.
atack2010: There you go.
Brett: um
atack2010: If it's in the rookie, it's good enough for me.
Alexis: Obviously, if it's in a movie, it's got to be true, so.
atack2010: all of All of these things we're talking about, today some of the some of these things we kind of laugh about, they're anecdotal. And some of the things that, you know, obviously a fence is gonna, you know, do a pretty good job if you erect a big... barrier. I mean, it worked for medieval castles. It's going to work for your garden or commercial operation. It's an expensive option. But ah the third point, the wildlife biologist stressed to me, ah he said, your mileage is going to vary if you use the same tactic in different situations. It depends on the motivation of the animal. And he said, believe it or not, I guess, and he was familiar with some studies that I have never looked up.
atack2010: But some animals just have more of a tolerance for the taste repellents for the
Alexis: but
Josh: and
Alexis: Uh -huh.
atack2010: Spicy repellents and the putrid egg solid repellents ah So it depends on how hungry the animal is and Alexis you mentioned that on your farm There is a alfalfa field that is close by which is probably the best munch munching of deers ever gonna do is in an alfalfa field So what are they just kind of I'm guessing they just cross your place to get there to the more.
Alexis: and sir
Alexis: and sir
Alexis: I hope so. I mean, so far, they they've
Josh: All right, her place is like maybe a dessert like once I get there Phil I
atack2010: Yeah. Yeah It's like a road it's like a road stop. Yeah, it's it's just like a red stop
Alexis: They must be pretty lazy because they, they don't seem to, although I have found some damage, but I'm not certain it is a deer. Even though we've seen deer tracks, it feels more like a rabbit to me of just nipping off the tops of some plant of my, uh, some of my perennials.
atack2010: Is it li like everything low? it looks like real that that You can tell, yeah.
Alexis: Well, the they're they're they're flocks. So they're only about, you know, three foot high and or two foot high anyway.
atack2010: Okay, they're low, yeah.
Alexis: So um but it's it's I don't know. It's ah it's just a little little sketchy, a little sketchy in there. I mean, it even could be an insect.
atack2010: Rabbits, soul but they'll munch along.
Alexis: But I think um I think the way it is, it's at the very end of a row, too. So.
atack2010: Yeah, yeah.
Alexis: Okay, well, yeah, wildlife management. Basically what I usually tell people is there's probably not just one answer and you're going to have to try a couple of different things to see what the tolerance of your specific raccoon problem might be or vole or whatever that is because what We can give you the best option. A lot of those times, the those best options, the ones that we you know say will work 100 % of the time. For example, if you hit a mole with a harpoon trap, um it will take care of your mole problem. But a lot of times, people don't want to do that, or they you know maybe they can't put out poison baits if that's kind of the the method they want to do because of dogs or other other animals, ah just for personal reasons. so
Alexis: ah There's not always that, but like what I have done, I've used the capsaicin for voles and it works great for me, but that doesn't mean it will, number one, work again if I need to put it down, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it'll work for my neighbor or someone ah else around the state.
atack2010: Yeah.
atack2010: Mm -hmm.
Alexis: so
Josh: Their balls might be Cajun, you know, they might be into it.
Alexis: Right?
atack2010: It could be, they may love that spot.
Alexis: Like I, you know, you don't know. They're like a little spicy. So, uh, you, you just kind of have to try some different things. But if you wanted the one thing that definitely will work, uh, as long as you build it correctly for the pest problem that you have to identify first is an exclusion.
atack2010: Hmm.
Alexis: by a fence or something. So if you don't want to go through that problem of like, let's try this and then let's try this, ah then go ahead and invest in that. And then at least you have it. you know So usually those fences are something you can put up every year um and is it's kind of a one -time investment for the most part.
Josh: I don't know.
atack2010: Yeah.
atack2010: Yeah, that's the two main things I usually recommend. um If it's a valuable crop is exclusion and habitat modification. I start with the two upper tiers. And if it's a homeowner, we talk a lot about the repellents and things like that. So you can add those in. if you're a homeowner where maybe it's a little bit more low key scenario. And once again, don't forget to that we have here in Kentucky and probably in your state where you're listening from. ah We do have a wildlife biologist that can take a phone call and work a lot more in depth on some of these ah situations. Once again, they can give you the you know the legal status of the critter and help you identify the critter that's causing you problems.
Alexis: Awesome. All right. Well, um, thank you all for, for being here and for giving us the suggestion, uh, and for reaching out. So it is proof that we do read your emails and see your messages. So if you have any ideas for future episodes, we're always interested in that. it This message reminded us we had it done an episode on this. So, but if you'd like something, maybe more specific about wildlife, or maybe we can bring on, um, our wildlife specialists, that we have at UK who's a cool guy. I can tell you some real funny stories about trapping beavers of all things, but he knows a lot. Very, very great. We'll put ah links to those websites down below where you can do some more reading, try to you know help you identify maybe what's causing some problems in there and you can always reach out with photos to your local county extension office.
Alexis: and we can help you with that. But that is today's episode. And we hope that as we grow this podcast, you will grow with us. Have a great one.
