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Garden Wildlife Control
68 Plays4 months ago
Join us as we delve into the dynamic world of garden wildlife control. We will discuss different strategies for managing critters that visit your garden spaces, from the humble rabbit to the crafty crow. We will talk about strategies like exclusion, habitat modification, relocation, and repellents that, in combination, will help you coexist with wildlife while protecting your precious plants.
Kentucky Regional Wildlife Biologists
Management of Wildlife and Domestic Animals on Your Farm
Prevention and Control of Wildlife Damage Handbook
Questions/Comments/Feedback/Suggestions for Topics: [email protected]
Recommended
Transcript
Curiosity Sparked by a Half Found Possum
00:00:16
Alexis
Hey everybody, i'm gonna I'm gonna start this episode right on topic and tell you how I found half of a possum this morning outside.
00:00:22
atack2010
Oh, this should be good.
00:00:23
Alexis
Yeah, actually, i've there's a bunch.
00:00:24
atack2010
Can't wait to hear this.
00:00:25
Josh
Which to be clear, it was the front half that you found.
00:00:27
Alexis
ah It was, yeah, ribs up to head and nothing nothing internal.
00:00:32
Josh
That would be the harder part to eat, in my opinion.
00:00:34
Alexis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's It was sad because like I don't hate possums.
00:00:37
atack2010
OK.
00:00:38
Alexis
I know some people are really creeped out on it, but like all I saw, it kind of caught me off guard as as half a possum would. I walked over and I saw these little paws like upward and I was like, the hell? And um yeah, and then I was like, oh, I wonder if this is the possum that we thought was friends with the cats, but apparently not no mo because...
00:00:50
Brett
Oh, buddy.
00:00:59
Josh
All right, I got it falling out.
00:00:59
Brett
Oh, shoot.
00:01:02
Alexis
Yeah, we ah every once in a while come in in the morning. If I come in ah early was so dark and it'll be like around the cat food bowls, right? Like looking for, you know, scraps.
00:01:11
Josh
Mature.
00:01:12
Alexis
And I thought, why aren't the cats getting this thing out of here? Like, what are they doing?
00:01:15
Josh
All right.
00:01:16
Alexis
Well, apparently they have done did it.
00:01:17
Brett
Planting a long game.
00:01:20
atack2010
The cats and coyotes have
The Live and Dead Possum Encounter
00:01:22
atack2010
formed an alliance.
00:01:22
Alexis
Well, I found a bunch of babies the other day in a bucket and only one was
00:01:27
Josh
Baby raccoon.
00:01:27
Brett
Wait, to be clear, baby, what?
00:01:29
Josh
Humans?
00:01:30
atack2010
Awesome.
00:01:31
Alexis
baby Baby possums.
00:01:33
Alexis
there are no There are no baby humans at the Sheffield residence.
00:01:33
Brett
Possum.
00:01:34
Josh
Okay.
00:01:34
atack2010
OK, OK.
00:01:34
Brett
Oh, baby paw. Oh, I wasn't thinking. guy I didn't know, baby, you were talking about cats talking about mammals.
00:01:40
atack2010
Buckets of babies.
00:01:40
Alexis
ah So I was moving buckets, wash buckets the other day. And there were, uh, I was like, something smells real bad. I thought it was like a weird stinky bucket because that happens a lot. And, uh, for like floral buckets, they get, they get weird.
00:01:51
Brett
Oh, yeah. yeah
00:01:54
Alexis
But so I'm like, move the buckets and I go to grab this big yellow bucket. And I'm like, Oh, you know, there's movement in there. And, um, and I looked down in it and there's a baby possum. that looked fine and alive and then there's two dead baby possums and i don't know how long they've been dead
00:02:08
Brett
Oh, God, you're starting on such a dark note here.
00:02:08
Josh
and mean
Vultures and Wildlife Behavior Observations
00:02:12
atack2010
Yeah, I mean.
00:02:13
Brett
I love possums.
00:02:14
Alexis
um i will but well i like possums yeah i uh but i went i set the i set the other one free and you know we're cool we're chill um
00:02:14
Josh
I know the flower farm and it's like possum destruction.
00:02:15
Brett
I'm feeling sad.
00:02:17
atack2010
Wow, yeah.
00:02:18
Brett
Well, there will be flowers for the funeral, at least. That's the good news.
00:02:27
Brett
Oh, I'm not saying that you did anything messed up. i'm just I'm just observing the effect it's having on me to imagine these
00:02:30
Alexis
Yeah, sorry. good Would you rather me tell you about the black vultures that are stalking me, or?
00:02:30
atack2010
from our stupid old madness.
00:02:36
atack2010
You're the possum.
00:02:37
Josh
They can sense you're burning out.
00:02:38
Brett
ah To be clear to be clear has anyone else seen the vultures Alexis?
00:02:43
Josh
All right.
00:02:43
Alexis
I have photographs.
00:02:44
atack2010
Or is it just you?
00:02:45
Josh
Yeah, it's just like the black dog of the highway.
00:02:48
Alexis
I have
00:02:48
Brett
yeah Are the vultures in the room with us now?
00:02:52
Alexis
photographs.
00:02:55
Alexis
Yeah, so i they they've been
00:02:57
Brett
Wow
00:02:59
Alexis
I like raptors and birds and they're cool, but these ones have been being a little, a little creepy, but I think we've, they're the, I believe the young ones. So we have an old tobacco shipping shed in the back that's fallen down.
00:03:08
Josh
Mm.
00:03:12
Alexis
and um since we've lived there a few years, there's ah black vultures that nest in there. And so we'll see the fuzzy, ugly babies that you know run around.
00:03:19
Brett
mean
00:03:20
Josh
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:22
Alexis
And so there's been one or two that have been around lately, and they'll just sit on the fence like near me in the fields and just like watch.
00:03:27
Josh
Mm.
00:03:32
Alexis
And then the dogs see them, and they you know freak out. and ah But it was it was they don't leave. They just watch me.
00:03:39
Josh
Yeah.
00:03:39
Alexis
And I'm like, hey there.
00:03:40
Josh
Well, there's like two things they could be communicating, right? One is they expect you to keel over and your dinner, which are probably your, but there's also the one that like, you're a primate and a predator and they think maybe you're going to kill something and leave it behind.
00:03:44
Brett
Hmm.
00:03:45
Alexis
Yeah, true, fair.
00:03:47
Brett
Yeah.
00:03:52
Alexis
Yeah, I'm i'm wondering. i don't Or maybe they've just been waiting on the cats to feed them possums. I don't know.
00:03:59
Josh
could be
00:04:01
Brett
Depends on the the proportion of time you've spent like in doing battle cries in the field versus laying on the ground whimpering, you know, it's like they're like, if yeah.
00:04:01
Josh
yeah
00:04:02
Alexis
I was a little worried.
00:04:07
atack2010
Yeah.
00:04:08
Josh
right
00:04:10
atack2010
It's ah it's those audio cues that are very important.
00:04:12
Josh
ah Maybe they're finding these like dead possums in your wake and they're like, oh, pay dirt.
00:04:12
atack2010
Yeah.
00:04:16
Brett
yeah
00:04:18
atack2010
Yes.
00:04:18
Brett
Is she ailing or is she an alpha?
00:04:18
atack2010
Yeah.
00:04:20
Brett
We don't know.
00:04:20
Alexis
yeah
00:04:21
Josh
like
00:04:21
atack2010
yeah
00:04:22
Alexis
The, uh, the corgis are not pleased and they are much bigger
Farm Wildlife Interactions: Coyotes and Deer
00:04:26
Alexis
than the corgis. So that's been an interesting, uh, I'm like, please, please don't, please don't terrorize the large birds.
00:04:27
Brett
Yeah.
00:04:32
Alexis
Thanks. Um, so they sit up on the telephone poles and like stare down at me and I'm like, Hey guys.
00:04:35
Brett
Wow.
00:04:38
atack2010
I feel like there's a case study in wildlife management and her on your own, your place. I just feel like there is.
00:04:44
Alexis
Um, yeah.
00:04:44
Josh
Yeah, it sounds like Yeah,
00:04:45
atack2010
Yeah. I mean, did these are, these are fringe case scenarios that I'm not prepared to discuss.
00:04:49
Alexis
Well, and so when I said it was on topic today, it's because for for you listener, we we're talking about managing wildlife in your you know gardens or your fields.
00:04:50
atack2010
I'm just saying.
00:04:51
Josh
which
00:04:54
atack2010
wildlife
00:04:56
Josh
that
00:05:01
Alexis
We had a request for that. So thank you for asking. And then it just seemed really timely because I stumbled across half of a dead possum this morning. so
00:05:09
Josh
yeah which
00:05:09
Brett
And so we're we're, we're differentiating from like insects and it's sort of, I guess mostly mammals in our neck of the woods, but it vertebrates.
00:05:09
atack2010
that is vertebrates maybe mammals yeah there we go yeah i don't know we've we've covered marsupials already too so hey you know let's get specific okay
00:05:13
Josh
Mm-hmm.
00:05:13
Alexis
Right.
00:05:19
Josh
And it sounds like birds, birds and man.
00:05:21
Brett
Oh, ready.
00:05:21
Josh
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:24
Josh
Not the arthropods.
00:05:24
Brett
Those are the ones that, those are the ones that warm themselves or no, they're no, sorry.
00:05:28
Brett
That's the vertebrates. Yeah. G'day, little possum.
00:05:34
atack2010
I mean, if we include the insect past, we could have our own 10 part series on that because, yeah.
00:05:34
Josh
Mm-hmm.
00:05:38
Brett
So we're focusing on stuff that has ah has ah has a backbone.
00:05:42
Alexis
yeah We'll leave the insects to Dr.
00:05:42
atack2010
Yes, it's not afraid of anything.
00:05:45
Alexis
Larson and his Arthropod podcast. so
00:05:48
Josh
the
00:05:48
Brett
Yes.
00:05:49
atack2010
Good stuff.
00:05:50
Josh
Well the half consumed or half of a possum one leads me to believe that you have other animals on the property like possibly I was wondering if you had issues with like kind of wild dogs or koi dogs or any of those kind of like canines romping around besides your two corkeys.
00:05:56
atack2010
Mm-hmm.
00:06:06
Alexis
Uh, we have, ah yeah, we do have some coyotes around.
00:06:08
atack2010
Yeah.
00:06:11
Alexis
I've never seen them on the property, but they've, you know, at least sounded pretty close. Um, close enough that the dogs get a little freaked out, but, uh, yeah.
00:06:19
atack2010
You know. And do you guys have like woodland tracks or I guess I should use the term corridor here, wildlife corridor. You have any of those around your farm? I mean, a lot of times people that mention that they have those, they have a you know greater possibility of having wildlife damage.
00:06:33
Alexis
Yeah, there's ah there's a good there's a lot of deer. We do have a lot of deer in the area and ah you know knock on wood.
00:06:38
atack2010
Yeah.
00:06:40
Alexis
hope we Even though I've found footprints and like I just found some footprints in my cover crop little area, ah but they've not really seemed to bother stuff.
00:06:44
Josh
Hmm.
00:06:45
atack2010
Mm-hmm
00:06:49
Alexis
I don't know if it's just because they're really passing through and they're not they don't feel safe.
00:06:49
Josh
Hmm.
00:06:50
atack2010
They're not munching down on cover crops or anything Yeah Yeah Mm
00:06:53
Alexis
Yeah, I don't know if they feel safe right there in the out in the open, but there's a big alfalfa field ah farm across the street from me and in the mornings I'll see them.
00:06:54
Josh
Yeah.
00:07:03
Alexis
going running through there.
00:07:04
Josh
Well, you have that pond out there, which I would think functions as kind of like a Bucky's or whatever.
00:07:07
Alexis
Yeah, we have babies. Yeah, yeah, there's a ba there's babies. we We have to be careful certain times of year because there's babies that bed down um and we'll find them around baby deer.
00:07:13
atack2010
-hmm
00:07:17
Brett
Baby deer.
00:07:17
atack2010
so you you baby dear buckets of babies we've already asked yes baby animal do do do do yeah
00:07:19
Josh
yeah
00:07:20
Alexis
Baby deer, baby vulture, baby possum. We talked about it all.
00:07:23
Brett
Gotcha. Any baby sharks?
00:07:25
Alexis
a pe
00:07:26
Brett
Did it, did it, did it? Oh, I'm sorry.
00:07:28
Alexis
ah Alligator turtles.
00:07:31
Brett
Oh, alligator snapping little snappers?
00:07:31
atack2010
trump
00:07:33
Alexis
Close.
00:07:36
Alexis
That's why I can't have ducks.
00:07:36
Brett
Oh my gosh.
00:07:36
Josh
Mm-hmm.
00:07:37
Brett
It's like baby Bowser from Mario.
00:07:39
Josh
Yeah, right.
00:07:41
Alexis
yeah yeah Yeah, that's why I can't have ducks.
00:07:41
Brett
Oh, man.
00:07:43
Alexis
so you know For someone who really doesn't have any woods, it is kind of weird.
00:07:43
atack2010
You have like wild kingdom out on your farm.
00:07:45
atack2010
It sounds like Alexis you have, but, but you have farms nearby.
00:07:50
Alexis
but um yeah Yeah, the water.
00:07:50
Josh
ah It's that kind of wooded little fragment with the pond, it seems like. It's like the spot.
00:07:54
atack2010
Yeah.
00:07:55
Josh
Like, that's where I would hang out, you know?
00:07:55
Brett
Have you ever?
00:07:55
atack2010
Yeah.
00:07:55
Alexis
there's
00:07:58
Brett
you ah You'll have, I'm guessing like trail cams and stuff.
00:07:58
Josh
Just like in the sludge.
00:08:00
Brett
Have you ever set them up like on the pond, on and around the pond just to see what the deal is?
00:08:03
Alexis
Yeah, we have minks. We have some minks out there.
00:08:05
Josh
Ooh, cool.
00:08:05
Alexis
The cats have brought us some minks.
00:08:06
Brett
Oh.
00:08:08
Alexis
Um, again,
Moles vs Voles: Understanding the Differences
00:08:09
Alexis
why I can't have ducks. Uh, so we know that there's minks down there.
00:08:11
Brett
Wow.
00:08:12
Alexis
Actually Tyler was, uh, like duck hunting off the pond or like for geese, I guess, but, uh, and he said he was sitting there, you know, and he's whatever and something like,
00:08:19
Brett
Hmm.
00:08:25
Alexis
ah went like crawled over his foot and like kind of freaked him out and he looks down it's a mink and then like he freaked out and the mink freaked out and like it was a whole thing so um yeah I was like you were asleep weren't you that's why it felt comfortable yeah
00:08:27
Josh
cool Cool.
00:08:33
Josh
yeah if i
00:08:34
atack2010
That's some good camouflage. Good, good camouflage clothing, I'm guessing. and Yeah.
00:08:41
Josh
It's like 3am, he's in a ghillie suit, been unconscious for 90 minutes.
00:08:46
Alexis
Pretty much, pretty much. Um, but yeah, so I, I mean, voles and moles, I know I get a lot of calls on those and I would say if I've had so far in my farming experience and I'm not growing vegetables, so I don't think I have quite the pressure, uh, that, you know, they're not quite as interested in, in flowers.
00:08:59
atack2010
Hmm.
00:09:04
atack2010
And those things are different, voles and moles, right? You might want to, yeah.
00:09:06
Alexis
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Voles, they're, they're very similar, but voles are more like a field mouse that doesn't have a tail. Um, so that's the, how,
00:09:14
atack2010
And they don't have the same burrows as moles do, do they? The voles do not.
00:09:19
Josh
Okay.
00:09:19
Alexis
I don't know. I don't think so. they kind of They're like what right on the surface.
00:09:21
atack2010
Yeah, right on top of the other right on top of it.
00:09:23
Alexis
yeah
00:09:24
atack2010
Usually when I get phone calls of people that you know, regarding bowls, it's number one been ah winter with a lot of snow because they will get under there and they can have like multiple liters of babies per year.
00:09:27
Brett
Thank you.
00:09:34
Alexis
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:09:35
atack2010
And when they're protected under snow, it's going to be
00:09:36
Alexis
Because they're a mouse, yeah.
00:09:39
atack2010
you know bad years for voles if you have them in the area because they're protected but ah the other if you have large clumps of like a grass field grass they can get under there and burrow as much as they want through the grass right on top of and they're very distinct right on top of the through the sod scruff But if you have a lot of protected areas where like owls and hawks and natural predators can't get to them, that's almost always the case when I go out and do an assessment. It's where you have some of these situations where there's a lot of cover.
00:10:08
Josh
Mm hmm.
00:10:08
atack2010
Then you have vole problems, vole with a V, V-O-L-E.
00:10:08
Alexis
Yeah. I see, I see vol problems in people who um are using a plastic culture system of some kind.
00:10:14
Josh
Hmm.
00:10:16
Alexis
So landscape fabric that they're not removing every year.
00:10:16
atack2010
Yeah.
00:10:19
Alexis
So, you know, large blueberry, you know, production or like I use it in my fields or um laying down tarps. So a lot of people kill off. We've talked about it before, cover crops with, you know, silage tarps or things like that. and they'll be under there. So when you pull those back and you see these little indent tunnels, you know, they're not all the way underground.
00:10:38
Josh
Mm-hmm
00:10:39
Alexis
Those are vole tracks. And I have a Corgi who will eat those voles as you pull the tarp back. So yeah.
00:10:45
atack2010
Those are one of the things for commercial orchards that sends a chill up, you know, the commercial orchards.
00:10:45
Josh
Nice
00:10:48
Brett
Yeah. Root tree is this. Yeah.
00:10:50
atack2010
Yeah, for fruit trees, because voles, their diet is more like bulbs and plant matter itself, whereas a mole is more grubs and earthworms, things like that.
00:10:55
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:10:59
atack2010
So they... A lot of times we say mole and vole, but they're completely different. What they eat is completely different in their tunnels.
00:11:05
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:11:05
atack2010
Everything is different about those. But what orchards have found out their golden solution to that is they just have gravel pads many times around them the young trees. And um that makes an area that the vole has to cross and that allows predators to do the work.
00:11:19
Josh
Yeah, right.
00:11:21
atack2010
And it's amazing. I remember the first time I ever said, well, what's all the gravel around everything for? there was a couple different reasons, but the one I keyed in on was that it's ah areas that voles absolutely do not like to cross. And if they don't like to cross that you can keep them away from your young trees and they'll tend to girdle young fruit trees and in the tree just dies ah wherever it's girdled at.
00:11:38
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:11:40
Josh
Right.
00:11:41
atack2010
But I thought that was interesting. That was a very low impact sort of habitat modification. We talk a lot about ah habitat modification, but that was just a simple thing that they did and no more vole problems.
00:11:46
Brett
Thank you.
00:11:52
atack2010
So it's interesting.
00:11:52
Alexis
My favorite thing.
00:11:52
Brett
I was, I was sitting on my patio this morning, back patio.
00:11:53
Alexis
Go ahead, Brett.
00:11:58
Brett
We have a lot of natural habitat in our backyard for all kinds of things. And I was just sitting there and I saw this vole pop out onto the edge of the patio and it's running along, sneaking kind of along the edge of stuff, trying to get from one section to another. And then it just runs directly into my foot. And then it starts squealing, going crazy takes off.
00:12:15
atack2010
I don't think...
00:12:17
Brett
Like, what did you, and I was like, you ran into me. I don't know what you want me to do here, but, uh, Yeah, I yeah, well, I think you did it by shoe.
00:12:23
Josh
He's like, that's where you're going, buddy.
00:12:25
Alexis
Right, yeah.
00:12:26
atack2010
I don't think this suits you real well.
00:12:27
Alexis
Rude.
00:12:28
atack2010
Yeah, that's funny.
00:12:29
Brett
it's a well they It's almost like, it's not exactly perfect, but like it's almost like a if you took put it on a spectrum, and on the one end of the spectrum was the like ah a traditional kind of field grave, little field mouse, and the other end of the spectrum is a mole, it kind of looks like you almost averaged the two to some extent.
00:12:39
Alexis
Mhm.
00:12:47
Alexis
Mhm.
00:12:47
Brett
There's certain attributes of a vole from each of those, and um yeah, they're
00:12:50
atack2010
Yes.
00:12:51
Alexis
Mhm.
00:12:52
atack2010
yeah Yeah.
00:12:54
Brett
weird looking little little guys uh yeah but they they see a little better than a mole but not as well as a mouse or me apparently
00:12:57
Alexis
Terror's potential problems?
00:13:01
Alexis
Yeah.
00:13:02
Josh
Yeah.
00:13:03
atack2010
So if you see these tracks right along through sod, that's right on top of that, just kind of, they kind of just move stuff around and make tunnels right at the surface level.
00:13:10
Alexis
and so
00:13:11
atack2010
And you can see that they're not really tunnels. They're just kind of pushing through the sod. And that's one of those things you can't really, I guess you technically could fence them out, but we don't fence for voles instead what, you know, because specifically commercial producers do, um, if they have plastic culture operations, even beyond orchards. is that they try to, ah the ones I've worked with, we try to talk a lot about modifying the corridors around, keeping everything mode really close if you have a problem, and then hoping that you see owls and hawks around, because that will take care of your problem.
00:13:35
Brett
Okay.
00:13:43
Alexis
Yeah. I've told people to put up Raptor purchase. So like, um, I know that there are like baits, right?
00:13:46
atack2010
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:49
Alexis
There are some poisons, but a lot of
The Ethics of Wildlife Management and Control
00:13:51
Alexis
the time when you're dealing with a little bit of a smaller grower, but sometimes the big ones as well, they already have, you know, a cat population or, you know, they have dogs and they don't want to risk putting out poison because, um, and, you know, just thinking about.
00:14:02
atack2010
Yeah.
00:14:05
Alexis
about those bigger predators.
00:14:05
Josh
Mm hmm.
00:14:07
Alexis
um If you poison the food source, you poison ah those predators. so ah But putting up raptor perches has been good um advice.
00:14:11
Brett
Mhmm.
00:14:16
Alexis
And I tell people, like if you see a snake, you don't necessarily have to kill the snake. I mean, obviously, if it's poisonous, you probably don't want it. But I know in our area of Kentucky, like we don't really have poisonous snakes. So like you know if you could just let it go, it will help with your population of rodents.
00:14:33
atack2010
Yeah, they're probably there. They have to have a food source. So if they have a food source, that means you may have rodents in the area. So ah they're not always a bad thing.
00:14:42
Brett
Yeah, I think the the the general, you know, we can kind of maybe get this little part of the discussion out of the way early is the like the rodenticides, the things that the poisons that that these things eat, they don't, it's not like they eat them and then die immediately right then, then and there.
00:14:42
Alexis
Right.
00:14:42
atack2010
extra
00:14:57
Josh
and degrade and become nothing.
00:15:00
Brett
Right.
00:15:00
Alexis
Yeah.
00:15:01
Brett
there's a there there I think in general, it is ah even more than some other pesticides, at least as far as I've seen and in Extension recommendations, is like a very, very last solution um because of the bioaccumulation up through food chains.
00:15:11
Alexis
Yes.
00:15:15
Alexis
Mhm.
00:15:15
Brett
So like something finds the rodent, eats the
00:15:16
atack2010
Bye.
00:15:18
Alexis
Mhm.
00:15:20
Brett
the rodent that has the poison in it and then maybe get sick itself, then it gets eaten by something else. And so you're you're sort of, there's this butterfly effect of that rodenticide within the food chain to these really um sensitive like apex predators like you're talking about where they're at the very top where a lot of this stuff can accumulate up and and for like a raptor or or something or or an owl or something like that.
00:15:44
atack2010
and And this is along those same lines, Brett, ah that that you're discussing, is that the number one thing we always say is you, you know, first of all, you identify what is causing your issue, whatever that issue may be, whatever kind of damage. Number one is identify positively. You know what you're dealing with number two is find out the status of that. ah You know if you're looking for lethal options like um you know something to dispatch that animal whether it be a 12 gauge slug or or whatever the first thing you need to do before you take extreme measures I know that it's upsetting.
00:16:11
Alexis
just
00:16:11
Josh
Yeah.
00:16:11
Brett
No.
00:16:17
atack2010
ah to some people when you go out there and half of your garden is destroyed by deer overnight. But the first thing you do ah do is identify what is causing you the problem. And the second thing is I usually encourage people to make a call to the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife, specifically their field biologist.
00:16:30
Alexis
Yeah.
00:16:32
atack2010
And we'll try to remember to put a link and in the ah podcast for that. But they can discuss what your like lethal control options, if that's what you're interested in or relocation options, which relocation is an interesting topic.
00:16:42
Alexis
Mhmm.
00:16:46
Josh
Mm
00:16:46
atack2010
uh, in itself, but that's what you need to do first. It's like what Brett's talking about.
00:16:50
Alexis
Mhmm.
00:16:50
atack2010
If you're involving yourself in some of those, those more lethal methods, you need to know the status like vultures, Alexis, you brought that up and aren't they a protected status?
00:16:56
Brett
Mm
00:17:00
atack2010
You have to get permits.
00:17:00
Alexis
The black-headed vultures are a protected status, yeah.
00:17:01
atack2010
ah Yeah, that that's a, that's a good, that's a, that's a good example of, uh, um, an animal that you need to look into before you take any kind of control.
00:17:03
Alexis
yeah
00:17:12
Josh
-hmm
00:17:12
atack2010
action on those.
00:17:14
atack2010
And there's other animals like that too. So um before we get too deep into the discussion, know the animal and know what its ah protect protected class is and do work with those fish and and wildlife biologists.
00:17:25
Brett
hmm
00:17:25
atack2010
They're really, really good. And I think there's one assigned to every county in the state of Kentucky. They cover multiple counties, but every grouping of county has someone that you can call.
00:17:33
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:17:36
atack2010
So do that.
00:17:38
Alexis
Yeah.
00:17:38
atack2010
What else?
00:17:39
Alexis
yeah
00:17:39
atack2010
Uh, we've, uh, covered what we've, uh, you talked a little bit about deer moles and voles, which those can be frustrating, but we have lots of cats around.
00:17:45
Brett
to to To circle back real quick, to circle back real quick on the moles thing, Ray.
00:17:47
atack2010
Yeah, go ahead. Hmm.
00:17:52
Brett
You talk about voles having real strong implications for like orchards, for instance, or for young trees.
00:17:57
atack2010
Hmm.
00:18:00
Brett
Do moles, are moles, not to downplay it, but are they moles mostly an aesthetic problem, or is there ah is there a reason?
00:18:04
Josh
Mm
00:18:06
atack2010
Yeah. There is some commercial problems, uh, with moles being present.
00:18:08
Josh
hmm.
00:18:11
atack2010
If you obviously, if you have a soccer field and you have moles in there, I mean, you don't want hospital bills racking up if you're a commercial entity or a school system.
00:18:20
Brett
Somebody twisting twisting their ankle or busting their.
00:18:20
atack2010
So there's. That's it. And that is, uh, I rolled down my Hill the other day because I have moles all in the backyard.
00:18:23
Brett
Yeah.
00:18:27
atack2010
I have a lot of clover and stuff. And I was actually, I was actually going down to my garden and read my son. My 10 year old ran out there and said, you okay, dad? And I'm like, I'm fine. My pride is broken.
00:18:37
Alexis
I.
00:18:38
Josh
Let me just lay here for a minute.
00:18:38
Brett
What?
00:18:39
Alexis
Do you all have any like outdoor cameras that might have caught that or.
00:18:40
atack2010
and No, we we actually we have a ring camera, but I rolled past that.
00:18:45
Brett
now
00:18:47
atack2010
It's a steep slope. I wrote, thank goodness, or Jennifer would have had that posted online already.
00:18:51
Brett
but just to Just to paint the picture of what went through my mind when you just said that. Ray and I were at a Halloween party a couple years ago and Ray was dressed up as Bilbo Baggins. um
00:19:03
Josh
Okay.
00:19:04
atack2010
Yes, I was.
00:19:05
Brett
ah Like one of the best costumes I have ever seen ah and he and So I'm imagining you sort of walking down the hill barefoot in your Bilbo Baggins costume with a with a lit pipe, you know, just sort of going along with maybe like a Exactly and just eating it rolling down the hill and
00:19:15
atack2010
I was barefooted. I was.
00:19:20
Alexis
I'm going on an adventure.
00:19:22
Josh
that
00:19:22
atack2010
I was.
00:19:25
atack2010
I did. Well, let me want let me let's just stamp this up a little bit more. I was eating a nectarine from my tree and it went flying and I went flying. We have a nectarine tree. And that was one of the only good nectarines from that tree. And I was very upset, which yeah moles.
00:19:38
Alexis
No strike again.
00:19:38
Brett
the mold
00:19:39
Josh
Hehehehe.
00:19:40
Brett
moles are off in the corner like we got him
00:19:42
atack2010
Yeah, got him.
00:19:42
Brett
we got him
00:19:44
atack2010
So that is one case scenario where you do have to worry about moles. It is mainly an aesthetic, I guess, to answer your question.
00:19:51
Alexis
Yeah, the only the only time I can think of it as like a real crop problem is if you've got bulbs in an area and they're tunneling underneath the bulbs or underneath even the plant sets, they like can create like a cavity or they'll push the bulbs up out of the um you know area.
00:19:52
atack2010
It's mainly aesthetic, yeah.
00:20:01
atack2010
The dryer cavity does terrible things. Yeah.
00:20:05
Brett
The moles are off in the corner like, we got him.
00:20:07
atack2010
yeah
00:20:08
Brett
We got him.
00:20:09
Alexis
But usually it's not like a widespread problem and normally it's something you can fix if you catch it ahead of time. so It's not as bad as like when you pick up a tulip bulb and it's half eaten because a vole has eaten it.
00:20:18
atack2010
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:21
Alexis
um
00:20:21
Brett
Yeah, for those guys, i've ah for the moles, I've seen the spring-loaded spike things that you put in the ground.
00:20:27
atack2010
yeah
00:20:28
Alexis
Harpoon traps.
00:20:29
Brett
Oh gosh, I didn't know they were called that. Call me call me Ishmael.
00:20:32
atack2010
Yeah, harpoon traps.
00:20:33
Alexis
Yeah.
00:20:34
Josh
yeah The white mole, get him!
00:20:34
Brett
Let's go.
00:20:35
atack2010
The gray white mole.
00:20:37
Brett
Yeah.
00:20:37
Alexis
The great white mole.
00:20:37
Josh
but
00:20:39
atack2010
Yes. ah but And keep in mind, dear listeners, that in some states you have to get a permit before you even trap moles.
00:20:40
Brett
yeah
00:20:46
atack2010
So check the status in your state.
00:20:46
Alexis
Oh, wow. Didn't know that.
00:20:48
atack2010
There's like a ah trapping permit that you have to get online.
00:20:51
Alexis
Did I ever tell you? When Adam and I, we don't have to cover this, but I think it's kind of funny. um We were on like an NPR channel and ah we were taking listener you know listener calls and Adam is the frankf Franklin County Horticulture Agent. And someone called in and said, i have you know I have this mole problem. What do we do? And Adam and I looked at each other and we were like, well, do you live in the city? Because if not, you can shoot them. And that did not go over well with that audience.
00:21:21
atack2010
Yeah.
00:21:22
Brett
I scorched earth.
00:21:22
Alexis
So, we got a lot of hate from that at the time Twitter was um not happy with us.
00:21:24
Josh
ah
00:21:26
Josh
so
00:21:27
Brett
Oh wow.
00:21:30
atack2010
It was a thing. It was, it was a will real thing.
00:21:32
Brett
e
00:21:32
atack2010
Yeah. You just went straight to the nuclear option.
00:21:33
Alexis
but ah
00:21:34
atack2010
I mean, yeah.
00:21:35
Josh
Alright, get your 38 near holo points and bang bang.
00:21:36
atack2010
Yeah.
00:21:39
Josh
good
00:21:39
Brett
Yeah, and maybe maybe this is a good time to just take a brief pause and i'm I'm as guilty of this as any of the rest of us here.
00:21:41
atack2010
Maybe.
00:21:42
Josh
ah
00:21:46
Brett
We are not all about just murdering ah animals for no reason, right?
00:21:49
Josh
maybe
00:21:50
Alexis
No, absolutely not.
00:21:51
Brett
I mean, where there is a there is an element of like destruction of stuff or there's there, you know, can cause real problems with commercial, you know, plantings or things like that.
00:21:51
Josh
Yes.
00:21:52
Alexis
Absolutely not.
00:22:03
Brett
I think there are some times where people can some um make a make a mountain out of a molehill, if I may.
00:22:07
Alexis
Mm-hmm, I have, yep.
00:22:08
atack2010
and Nice, very nice, very nice.
00:22:09
Brett
ah And, you know, it's important to kind of know that and have some perspective on that, especially like, in our case, where we're planting all of this crazy, all all like dense amounts of biomass are in our backyard right now, all kinds of flowers and big leaves and perennials and everything else.
00:22:24
atack2010
Mm.
00:22:27
atack2010
Hot sugar things, yeah.
00:22:28
Alexis
Mhm.
00:22:29
Brett
I mean, we're, in a way we're asking for having a bunch of chipmunks and having a bunch of voles and having a bunch of other things.
00:22:32
Alexis
Mhm.
00:22:35
Josh
Right.
00:22:36
Brett
and And for us, the benefits of that outweigh the the downsides for the most part.
00:22:38
Alexis
Mhm.
00:22:40
Brett
um And so like, it's just, there are ways of dealing with stuff. And I think for me, one of the take homes is like, don't just put out poison.
00:22:45
Alexis
Mhm.
00:22:47
Brett
It's, it's, ah you know, and and obviously there's other methods of exclusion and other things we can talk about with other the other stuff too.
00:22:47
Alexis
Mhm.
00:22:53
Brett
But um
Animal Training and Crop Protection
00:22:55
Alexis
And I know a lot of people really like relocation and I think that's where the importance of talking to that fish and wildlife biologist, or, you know, you can contact, we have wildlife biologists at UK as well that are in extension, but um contacting them because often it's a death sentence to relocate animals, right?
00:22:55
Brett
yeah, it is.
00:23:02
atack2010
Yeah. Mhmm.
00:23:13
Alexis
And so you're leaving them and, you know, maybe you'll end up with a bunch of baby possums that are in a bucket in your barn because mom didn't come back to take care of it because it was relocated.
00:23:22
atack2010
Mhmm.
00:23:22
Alexis
or Some things are some animals relocate better than others. And so you really just can cause a lot of problems to an ecosystem by, you know, bringing 10 raccoons and letting them loose in the park.
00:23:33
Josh
right
00:23:34
Alexis
So, so yeah.
00:23:34
Josh
yeah
00:23:35
atack2010
It's good to work with your wildlife biologist on that for sure.
00:23:35
Josh
and
00:23:38
Josh
know
00:23:38
atack2010
That's a great point.
00:23:38
atack2010
Yeah.
00:23:39
Josh
Well, in my experience, like I've always, or I've long kind of conceptualized it.
00:23:39
atack2010
yeah
00:23:44
Josh
It's like, if you remove individuals from, you know, ah problematic individuals, let's say you are harassing your garden, there's still an ecological niche there, right? That it's just inviting somebody else to take its place.
00:23:53
atack2010
Yeah, it's going to get filled. Yeah.
00:23:56
Josh
And depending on it, you know, it can be pretty rapid. And then, you know, what are you doing? Are you getting to garden or are you in the traffic business? You know, where are you spending your time?
00:24:04
Alexis
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:07
atack2010
yeah I worked some with ah one of my internships was with a wildlife biologist and he said something that stuck with me for many years and he said the first the first concept with controlling nuisance wildlife either commercially or in your backyard he said is ah do it early before they get a taste of the good stuff he said du he said if it's one concept one takeaway concept whatever you're going to do if it's fencing
00:24:07
Alexis
Yeah.
00:24:31
atack2010
or it's some kind of topical application, you know, it's to do it.
00:24:32
Alexis
Preventative.
00:24:35
atack2010
He said, because if you get an animal that's motivated by the taste of your beautiful sweet corn and it knows what that sweet corn tastes like, he said, no amount of fencing is going to keep that.
00:24:39
Josh
Yeah.
00:24:45
atack2010
day It's going to try to jump an eight foot fence or it's going to try to go through the electric fence webbing that you put up. So that that stuck with me.
00:24:51
Josh
Right.
00:24:52
atack2010
He said, if if it's one thing you do, he said, is train animals early before they get a taste of whatever they're wanting to get into. And I found that to be true over the, you know, my years in extension is that I've taken, you know, scenarios that are been pretty much very similar where there's a crop that, um, you know, the animal wants to get into.
00:25:14
Josh
All
00:25:14
atack2010
And one crop has had the fence up early and they've put peanut butter on the pie pans and the deer comes up and licks it and gets a nice little zap. I bet that was interesting. Before the crop is actually ripe, whatever that crop was, but the animal associates that area with a negative incentive, a negative experience.
00:25:23
Josh
right.
00:25:26
Josh
All right.
00:25:31
atack2010
And then there's other scenarios where they would do that exact same process, but deer's already been into an area and been scarfing down strawberries or whatever it is that the deer was eating the sweet corn.
00:25:40
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:25:43
atack2010
but they would run through the fence, literally run through it at that point. And the only difference is, is you've conditioned them early in one scenario and not the other.
00:25:49
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:25:51
atack2010
So, um, it's, I mean, I might go through the, I might go through the fence myself.
00:25:51
Brett
Sometimes that that peaches and cream sweet corn tastes better than that electric fence hurts.
00:25:51
Josh
Yeah.
00:25:57
Josh
right
00:25:58
Brett
Speaking of experience here.
00:25:59
Alexis
yeah
00:25:59
atack2010
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Innovative Wildlife Deterrents and Management Resources
00:26:00
atack2010
You, you went straight on through it, haven't you, Brett? You went straight on through it.
00:26:03
Alexis
he He's, I'm imagining like a Kool-Aid man just running through the wall.
00:26:03
Brett
Crashed on through it, wrapped myself up in a blanket.
00:26:05
Brett
and yeah
00:26:08
atack2010
Oh yeah.
00:26:10
Brett
Yeah.
00:26:10
Josh
Oh yeah.
00:26:12
atack2010
Rolling through.
00:26:13
Alexis
um You know, one method that I have learned about recently, I don't know if any of you all have ever used it that seems a lot more simple because I know some people have You know, children or, you know, electric fence, which can be really, really successful isn't always the best way to go or it's really expensive to get one that, you know, runs on solar, bubble blah, blah, blah.
00:26:33
atack2010
Yeah.
00:26:35
Alexis
But somebody told me about and still takes some effort, but is just a clear fishing line. And so putting it up early.
00:26:42
Josh
and
00:26:43
atack2010
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:44
Alexis
And even for deer, it doesn't have to be, you know, high. We always think deer, we need a 12 foot fence, but, uh, sometimes again, if you get it early, you can put it at that chest height or like another one down low with their legs.
00:26:55
atack2010
They bump into it and they're like, what is this?
00:26:57
Alexis
And they, you don't market it or anything, which is the opposite of what I would think.
00:26:59
atack2010
Yeah.
00:27:01
Alexis
You don't want them to know it's there because when they hit it, it freaks them out because they can't see anything.
00:27:05
Josh
Hmm.
00:27:06
Alexis
And so then they're not in like the same thing for rabbits.
00:27:07
Josh
Hmm.
00:27:09
Alexis
You have to put it at a level where they're going to hit it. But a lot of the time, the fact that they can't see it is what freaks them out the most. Um, and I just thought that's a really inexpensive, relatively easy way to try, um, you know, doing and stuff like that.
00:27:22
atack2010
We, uh, my, my father did that and he would have like two lines of that ran three foot apart, one on the inside. So if they got, they got scared and went forward, usually they don't tear, don't they get scared and they back up.
00:27:33
Alexis
Yeah.
00:27:35
atack2010
Um, but, uh, if the first one didn't get them, the second would, I guess, finish them off their, their mental state off and then they would leave the area.
00:27:42
Alexis
I can't take it anymore.
00:27:43
atack2010
But yeah, but our birds were a little bit different when he would have trouble with like crows going down the row, uh, picking out young corn seedlings, he would.
00:27:45
Josh
No.
00:27:45
Alexis
Well, that's true.
00:27:49
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:27:49
Josh
No.
00:27:52
atack2010
you know, you know, top high pants on their reflective tape or even like little wind chime things, things that would move, uh, and may i have motion CDs that work great.
00:27:59
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:27:59
Josh
Yeah, and reflect light. Like CDs was like a thing when I was doing that in 2007, because it was like, I don't need CDs anymore.
00:28:02
Alexis
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:03
atack2010
Yeah. But, uh, no, you know, I, I bet you wish you had that Nirvana one back though, didn't you?
00:28:06
Josh
I've got 50 of them.
00:28:11
atack2010
Yeah, for sure. But anything that makes movement like that, I guess it, But, you know, things like crows, they're so smart, they will eventually, from my experience, get used to it, yeah.
00:28:18
Brett
Yeah, it's like trying to keep a person out.
00:28:18
Josh
Yeah. All right.
00:28:20
Alexis
and
00:28:21
atack2010
And even if you're using a scarecrow, you have to move it pretty often.
00:28:24
Josh
Mm-hmm.
00:28:25
atack2010
um So that's that's some habitat modifications you can do, like the Alexis was talking more like fencing, but there's some other things you can do. I was trying to think like, commercially we use like propane.
00:28:33
Alexis
The water thing that senses movement that.
00:28:35
atack2010
Oh, yes.
00:28:36
Josh
Oh, yeah. Mm hmm.
00:28:38
atack2010
Oh yeah, it's one of my favorites, so especially for cats and dogs, because they can be a nuisance wildlife.
00:28:38
Alexis
and so
00:28:43
atack2010
kind of digging in my garden. We have every neighborhood cat down there and it's a giant litter box and I'm not happy. ah But it's amazing what those ah those sprinkler and they're actually they make those don't they Alexis that are designed just for wildlife control.
00:28:49
Alexis
yeah Yeah.
00:28:50
Josh
Mm hmm.
00:28:56
atack2010
Their purpose built for that and yeah and it just jets and I guess rabbits don't like getting shot in the face with a high velocity stream of water and I love to watch them when they just run away.
00:28:56
Alexis
Yeah, it puts a jet.
00:29:06
atack2010
Yeah those
00:29:06
Josh
I know it's hard to like imagine like because when I think of dogs and that, like wild dogs, it'd be like, all right.
00:29:10
atack2010
yeah They just, yeah, they're down there chilling in it.
00:29:12
Alexis
like
00:29:14
atack2010
Yeah. So yeah, those are great. That's actually one of my favorites and it, and it makes a noise, a little bit of ah a noise with the water stream coming through there. Um, but, uh, that that's a great option. I like that one a lot. Uh, and it works particularly well with cats. Cats just do not like the water and I really like it for that. Yeah.
00:29:32
Brett
Maybe, you know, maybe this is a good chance to just give a shout out to a little resource bank within the UK's UK extensions.
00:29:33
atack2010
That's a good one.
00:29:39
Brett
ah It's in the Department of Forestry and Natural Resources tends to be the ones who put out a lot of the stuff related to wildlife management in different contexts.
00:29:46
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:29:48
Brett
And so um I kind of became more aware of that when because there's implications for wildlife getting in as far as food safety stuff for ah for
00:29:55
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:29:56
atack2010
ah The gap audits, yeah.
00:29:56
Brett
the Food Safety Modernization ah Act, as well as the good agricultural practices programs. And so there we could put a ah link to that, but there's all kinds of stuff about dealing with damage from and problems from vultures and squirrels and ah beavers, even.
00:30:11
Alexis
Muskrats.
00:30:12
atack2010
I forget.
00:30:13
Brett
Brief brief side note ah before we move on.
00:30:15
atack2010
Uh-oh.
00:30:17
Brett
And I can't remember who told me about this originally. ah It might have been my brother, Logan. ah If not, we'll just give him credit.
00:30:24
Alexis
Shout out Logan anyways.
00:30:26
Brett
Um, there was a program back in the forties wherein they relocated.
00:30:31
Josh
Mm. Raise heyday.
00:30:34
Brett
Yeah. Right. You might've been involved in this. You might've been flying one of the planes. ah Um, that trapped beavers were relocated to Idaho, I believe.
00:30:39
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:30:39
atack2010
It's very possible. It's very possible.
00:30:49
Brett
and they were dropped out of a plane with parachutes and upon landing the box sprung open.
00:30:50
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:30:56
Brett
The survival rate for the beavers was actually higher than other forms of relocation. It generally was more cost effective than other forms of relocation. There is actually a Wikipedia article, I'm going to look it up right now, ah for the beaver drop.
00:31:12
Josh
in The great Idaho Beaver drop of 46.
00:31:14
Brett
1948. In 1948, an Idaho Department of Fish and Game program to relocate beavers from northwestern Idaho to the Chamberlain Basin in central Idaho. The program involved moving 76 beavers, 1776, 76 American program, love it, ah and parachuting them down to the ground.
00:31:30
Josh
Yes.
00:31:33
Josh
Mm-hmm.
00:31:33
Alexis
America.
00:31:40
atack2010
It's like the beaver squadron.
00:31:40
Brett
The program was and started to address complaints about property damage.
00:31:41
atack2010
I mean, it's amazing the picture.
00:31:45
Brett
Parachuting beavers proved to be more cost effective and also decreased beaver mortality rates compared with alternative methods for relocation. So if you're interested, there's ah and there's a little picture of the beaver in the box as it landed. um
00:31:59
Alexis
Short tweet to the point.
00:32:00
Josh
I gotta see this.
00:32:01
atack2010
What are they comparing the mortality rate to like parachutes versus no parachutes?
00:32:01
Brett
Yeah.
00:32:07
atack2010
I mean,
00:32:07
Josh
I know, right?
00:32:07
atack2010
yeah
00:32:09
Alexis
Oh, we didn't know beavers couldn't fly.
00:32:11
Brett
Yeah, science was big back then, so you had to have a control group. ah Yeah.
00:32:15
atack2010
We were successful.
00:32:16
Josh
Oh yeah, it's each individual beaver had its own little box, oh my lord.
00:32:20
Brett
Yeah.
00:32:21
Josh
if That's not what I picture.
00:32:21
Brett
And they probably they really like grabb the they grabbed the box and then went and built a dam with it. Like, yeah, he shipped me in with some supplies.
00:32:28
Alexis
Got this.
00:32:28
Brett
Heck, yeah.
00:32:29
atack2010
I like it, but yeah.
00:32:30
Josh
And that is the story of why Idaho is so arid.
00:32:33
Brett
Yeah, but beavers do cause they can cause lots of problems with like flooding and other issues of all kinds of things.
00:32:36
Josh
Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:32:39
Brett
And we don't have it a ton.
00:32:39
Alexis
cutting down all your trees.
00:32:41
Josh
All right.
00:32:41
Brett
And yeah, in my part of in my neck of the woods, we don't have it a ton. But there's other you know, other places where it's a really huge deal.
00:32:47
Josh
Um, where, where I was when I was in Harlan County, I liked the northern slope of Pine Mountain. That was probably the most wildlife pressure that I saw impacting systems. I mean, the deer situation was like, forget it, that you could be outside with a machine gun and it doesn't matter. Like, they're just going to keep coming.
00:33:04
Alexis
They're like, what are you going to do about it?
00:33:04
Josh
um But we also had a beaver pond that would, you know, periodically they'd really get after it and flood like a whole area, which, you know, we didn't grow in there, but they historically had. So you could see how it impact, you know, an old potato field.
00:33:19
atack2010
So.
00:33:19
Josh
And they also had something that I hadn't experienced before. um There was some damage to a high tunnel when I first got there.
00:33:27
Alexis
Hm.
00:33:28
Josh
And I was like, hey, what's that from? And they're like, oh, a black bear came rolling through and just took a swipe at this. And I was like, cool, I don't really, I didn't learn in school how to come up with a bare exclusion practice.
00:33:34
Alexis
It. Uh, what?
00:33:43
Josh
um Yeah.
00:33:43
atack2010
We had to deal with that with ah bees when they were after the larva in Floyd County and and there's a lot of hives destroyed and we had to, that there's a system where you can, you know, run electric and do the negative incentive with dry boxes and condition them.
00:33:54
Josh
Yeah.
00:33:57
atack2010
But yeah, it's a big, it's a big issue there with things like bears that maybe we don't so much think about here in the central part of the state, but we're getting bears here.
00:33:59
Josh
Hmm.
00:34:06
Josh
Yeah.
00:34:06
atack2010
two And I know many of you guys that are listening to other parts of the country may be accustomed to this, but I don't think about that a lot, but I've had to deal with that.
00:34:08
Alexis
and sir
00:34:13
Josh
yeah
00:34:14
atack2010
And things like elk, when I was in the eastern part of the state, they they would just pull up a four-inch caliper tree that weighs 300 pounds and be chewing on the bark, just with it sticking out of their mouth because they're large animals.
00:34:16
Josh
Right. right
00:34:25
atack2010
When you get into special cases like that,
00:34:26
Alexis
You
00:34:28
atack2010
with like bears and elk and you know that that are under protected status. That's really important to then, we worked a lot in the east, like you're saying, Josh, where the pressure was really high.
00:34:32
Alexis
sure?
00:34:39
atack2010
ah It seems like that we worked a lot more there in those areas with the field biologist.
00:34:44
Josh
Yeah, there was yeah but we did have there was a guy in the community who did Bees for Honey and he had a whole like, might as well have been ADX Florence or something like that system of like scared, like electrification.
00:34:44
atack2010
um you know If there's a relocation effort or whatever you know we needed, yeah.
00:34:52
atack2010
Mm-hmm.
00:35:00
Josh
Like as a human, I didn't want to get near his hive boxes.
00:35:00
atack2010
Yeah.
00:35:01
Alexis
Yeah.
00:35:04
atack2010
Yeah.
00:35:04
Alexis
It's hard to pass.
00:35:05
atack2010
Yeah. It's serious.
00:35:07
Alexis
Um, so we haven't really talked about, I get, I know I get a lot of calls and people asking questions about like what to actually do about things like rabbits. I mean, we've mentioned like there's like the water thing, but you know, let's just say that someone has limited water access.
00:35:20
atack2010
Yeah.
00:35:23
Alexis
Maybe they're using a pump and so they can't just like leave the city water on with a, you know, with the sensor. ah But, you know, they can either get something solar or, you know, like more of a just a physical barrier. What have you all seen that has been, you know, successful for something small like rabbits? I feel like that's pretty universal.
00:35:41
atack2010
Fencing is always like the best, obviously. It's the premium option, but it's always the best option. That was rule number two from the wildlife biologist I worked with. was One is you know get them conditioned early.
00:35:50
Josh
Yeah.
00:35:52
atack2010
Number two was fencing is always the best option, but it's the one that I think people do the least when it comes to something like deer because it's a six to eight foot recommendation.
00:35:56
Alexis
Most expensive. Yeah.
00:35:58
Josh
Yeah.
00:36:01
atack2010
But with rabbits, you can build a much lower fence as long as that fence is attached very firmly to the ground. ah so Fencing for rabbits is much lower. um It's not like a deer fence.
00:36:12
Josh
yeah
00:36:13
atack2010
It has to be a minute ah you know around eight foot tall to be truly effective in those high pressure areas like Josh is talking about. So fencing is by far the best option in a lot of these scenarios. ah But don't the some of the taste repellents, which we've not really talked about, them the mint and the capsaicin and the putrid egg solids, there's lots of taste repellents.
00:36:30
Alexis
mhm mhm
00:36:34
atack2010
that you can use.
00:36:34
Josh
Right.
00:36:34
atack2010
And some of those are have rabbit labels on there. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of research in that area as far as to their true effectiveness. So your know your use case may vary. So there's fencing options that works great for rabbits.
00:36:47
Josh
Yeah.
00:36:47
Alexis
mhm mhm
00:36:49
atack2010
And then there's some of the taster pallets, I think.
00:36:51
Josh
what When I was farming in Georgia, we kind of went through this like ititeerative iter iterative process of like starting out with those quicker solutions like the you know repe ah chemical repellents, we'll call them.
00:36:51
Alexis
mhm
00:37:03
Alexis
Yeah.
00:37:03
atack2010
Yeah, thirome and then all the others.
00:37:04
Josh
um and And then there was another point where we got these like they were solar powered little attachments that you hung at sort of like predator eye level and they would make like a red a red light flash. I mean we kind of moved up all these different interventions and it's like I think we had talked about before where it's like you start out with something and yeah it's like effective for the first couple of days and then they figure it out and then you do the next thing.
00:37:18
atack2010
Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:37:28
Josh
and i the the other thing is some of those um like the liquid well the like the the one that's like whole egg solids i don't want to say a brand name but like that can also like attract others like it's like yeah that might keep away rabbits but like a raccoon's gonna be like oh what's going on over here and now right
00:37:36
atack2010
Yeah, the one that smells really bad.
00:37:36
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:37:41
atack2010
Yeah.
00:37:45
atack2010
I think it's some of some of the blood repellents for rabbits, like ah that they use down south, the blood repellents where we pale the rabbits, but they will attract actually other predators.
00:37:45
Alexis
What's rotten over here?
00:37:54
Josh
Right, yeah.
00:37:55
Alexis
The coyotes, yeah.
00:37:55
atack2010
So, yeah.
00:37:55
Josh
like And so so we went through this whole season of like consistently trying these more like intensive interventions until we got to the fence with an electric line.
00:37:56
atack2010
um
00:38:04
atack2010
Mm hmm.
00:38:06
Josh
Now we had the infrastructure for that because we were also doing animals, so it's just like, forget it.
00:38:07
atack2010
Yeah.
00:38:11
Josh
like We're building a little fence.
00:38:12
atack2010
Yeah.
00:38:13
Josh
And so after having a really like lame summer of continually trying things and having to outsmart it, it's just like, i
00:38:13
Alexis
Yeah.
00:38:21
Josh
jump to the option right like if you can do the fence or some kind of exclusion like I definitely we talked about you know keeping ground cover as low as possible so there's no place to hide right yeah it's like in making that boundary so they have to cross it to get to your garden those are I think the gold standard
00:38:23
Alexis
Yeah.
00:38:29
Alexis
Mhmm.
00:38:31
atack2010
Yeah, that's like more like a Habitat modification. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:38
atack2010
h And that's a great point. Yeah, you know and ah you guys have all alluded to it, but usually with wildlife control, from what I've seen, if you have a lot of pressure, it's a combination of exclusion, habitat modification, repellents.
00:38:53
Josh
Mmhmm.
00:38:53
atack2010
It's all of those things, especially in a commercial scenario where you may be getting audited. And wildlife you know has a lot of implications for commercial ah operations and food safety. In those cases, you're probably using more than one method. You're probably using you know fences along with Other things like the habitat modification LOMO and all that stuff and you know, allowing the predators in But it's usually not not one answer um I guess a case in point is my backyard garden. I moved the garden intention. I knew what I was doing when I did it, but
00:39:24
Alexis
Thank
00:39:24
atack2010
moved it from up close to the house and raised beds because it was too easy and was too productive so I want to move it over the hill in ground because that's a lot of work and I could possibly roll down the hill and hurt myself and I enjoy all of that but I also moved it closer to the creek where there's habitat for lots and lots of rabbits and not only did I
00:39:29
Josh
Mm hmm.
00:39:30
Alexis
you.
00:39:36
Josh
Oh, yeah. The wildlife interstate.
00:39:44
atack2010
Yeah, and not only did I do that, but I thought we had a podcast that motivated me to do Clover in my backyard, which rabbits love.
00:39:48
Josh
Mm
00:39:51
atack2010
So it's like a Beatrix Potter film in my backyard.
00:39:51
Josh
hmm.
00:39:55
atack2010
It's like Benjamin Bunyan is having a rave down there.
00:39:57
Josh
little watershed down action.
00:39:59
atack2010
Yes, exactly, exactly.
00:39:59
Josh
here
00:40:01
atack2010
jo But that's what's going on. But I kind of let them have their share. I did all of that knowing that I have a fence down there that I have a couple of holes under and I watch the rabbits come in and out. They've wore it out. uh rabbits come in and out of that I'm like fine and my wife likes to watch the rabbits and if she sees me down there doing something to harass the rabbits I will get harassed so I give and I guess it was you Brett that said you know you have to assess the damage you know you have to kind of put it into perspective
00:40:15
Josh
but
00:40:31
atack2010
and it's my home garden, it's not like a commercial operation, so I can accept a certain amount of damage, it's no big deal. ah To me, so the rabbits get their share, we have flowers down there in a small garden plot, and they eat certain things, they eat my cover crop down to the ground, but that they get their share, and I did all of that knowing that I would have more pressure down there, but I wanted to have a garden down there, it's pretty, I watch the rabbits, I watch the garden grow.
00:40:53
Josh
I don't know.
00:40:54
atack2010
it's what I do but I guess I did all that knowing that I was going to accept a certain amount of damage.
00:40:54
Alexis
just
00:40:58
atack2010
So that's that perspective I think you were talking about Brett as far as and obviously your decision matrix is going to be different if you're a commercial producer like you were talking about Josh that's a large operation and you're just getting tons of pressure and damage and that gets into your livelihood and that's a different set of decision making tools there.
00:41:14
Josh
Okay.
00:41:15
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:41:16
atack2010
But it's interesting when you talk about wildlife damage you have to kind of as you're working with people, ask all of these questions. You have to you know ask a lot of questions to get to the point of getting some kind of plan together, whether it's a homeowner or a commercial operation.
00:41:28
Josh
Yeah.
00:41:30
Alexis
I've always wondered if, um so like, you know, your livestock guardian dogs, right? Can you have a ah vegetable crop guardian dog or are they really into more like a, we need a heartbeat in order for us.
00:41:43
atack2010
I don't know if they bond to tomatoes quite the same. Yeah, I don't know that they bond to a tomato.
00:41:48
Alexis
I didn't know if they were, um would just kind of patrol the outskirts of
00:41:48
Josh
Alright.
00:41:52
Josh
Ooh!
00:41:52
atack2010
I feel like we have cats, we have neighborhood cats that act in that role. It's like, yeah, the, the warrior series is about cat warrior cats.
00:41:58
Alexis
We have vegetable guardian cats.
00:42:01
atack2010
It's kind of like that. Yes. Guardian cats.
00:42:02
Josh
They do that, like where I was in Japan, they do that they have like gardens, but they also have like kind of at the they have these spots where essentially they have a movable doghouse. And then there's a dog on like a lunge line that allows them to go to the extent of sort of the garden. or they are placed in kind of relation to prevent like rabbits coming from the trees or whatever, right?
00:42:26
atack2010
Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:28
Alexis
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:29
Josh
And so like every garden that we, or every vegetable production system that we went to, um there's like a dog with a doghouse and it's like hanging out.
00:42:36
atack2010
Yeah.
00:42:37
Alexis
Okay, cool, yeah.
00:42:38
atack2010
We did something. We extended our fence so our dog could patrol, but now she's made friends with the rabbits. It's just dumb, but we've got like a little house dog.
00:42:46
Alexis
Oh, Dinah.
00:42:46
atack2010
It's not the kind of utility dogs that Josh is talking about, but we did extend our fence down beyond the garden for, and that's one of the reasons, but we have a lot of neighborhood cats, which can be highly destructive on like native birds and rabbit populations and stuff like that.
00:42:58
Josh
Mm hmm.
00:43:01
atack2010
but Our dog does go down there. She likes to hang out down there where it's shady by the garden. And that does deter rabbi rabbits at certain times of the day. She doesn't stay out overnight. But yeah, that's a good point with ah the animals.
00:43:11
Brett
in In commercial contexts, there are some food safety implications for having dogs and cats and other animals intermingled and so it's just something to be aware of.
00:43:13
atack2010
Yeah.
00:43:17
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:43:17
Josh
Sure.
00:43:19
Alexis
Yeah.
00:43:20
atack2010
Yes. Yep. Commercially, it's a, once again, a yeah completely different set of ah questions you're gonna be asked on your you know food safety audit or you know if you're just doing a self audit.
00:43:32
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:43:32
atack2010
yeah that That'll be a section on there, domestic and wildlife, both ah you know both both mammals, so absolutely.
00:43:39
Alexis
I was thinking, can I have a tulip guardian dog or ah because deer love tulips on just
00:43:46
Josh
I feel like that's what the core D was developed for.
00:43:47
Alexis
Tulip Guardian Dog, I feel like is worth its weight, but...
00:43:50
Brett
I mean, you could be the, I mean, if, if it doesn't work out functionally, there's definitely a, an Instagram niche for a tulip guardian dog where you can make it look like it works and, and, you know, self shirts.
00:43:52
atack2010
Yes.
00:43:53
Alexis
Specifically, we don't actually need it to herd anything.
00:43:54
atack2010
for its combat skills.
00:43:56
Alexis
It's more, yeah, combat skills.
00:43:58
atack2010
and
00:43:59
Josh
which
00:44:07
atack2010
Oh, I think so.
00:44:11
Alexis
I mean, that's all that matters.
00:44:11
atack2010
I think so. You can you can you can make that work.
00:44:13
Alexis
I can fake it till I make it.
00:44:14
Brett
That's right.
00:44:15
Alexis
Coming soon.
00:44:16
atack2010
i think ah Planting a, you know, if you have a garden and you're having trouble with, uh, you know, things like deer and rabbits, they certainly don't like to eat marigolds. I don't know of anything that likes to eat marigolds and there's just certain plants and you can look that up based on your zip code, deer resistant plants.
00:44:31
Alexis
Hmm.
00:44:31
Josh
Mmm.
00:44:32
atack2010
And that's it. I mean, like lavender, no deer in its right mind is going to eat lavender. Um, but they're just, yes.
00:44:38
Brett
You're saying like plant things that they don't want to eat as a strategy for success if nothing else works.
00:44:43
atack2010
If nothing else works and yeah you're trying to save face, then maybe plant those plants that ah that that they don't find palatable. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:51
Brett
Yeah, I just meant I was like, Oh, well the miracle of like, keep a deer away and as it walks around and then eats everything else.
00:44:51
atack2010
And that that's another strategy.
00:44:56
atack2010
ah Oh, it's not going to, it's not going to keep it from it.
00:44:56
Alexis
Yeah.
00:44:57
Brett
Yeah.
00:44:59
atack2010
It's that you're substituting that for maybe plants that are more susceptible, but I wish that it would provide a a magical barrier. But unfortunately I don't think they do.
00:45:07
Alexis
what about the um What about the scent barriers? So like the coyote pee and stuff like that.
00:45:11
atack2010
Yeah. The mints.
00:45:12
Josh
yeah
00:45:13
atack2010
Yeah, you can get some of those.
00:45:15
Alexis
I'm not going to lie. I have a friend who has three young boys and she was complaining about how she can never keep the deer out of her out of her garden.
00:45:17
Josh
Yeah.
00:45:23
Alexis
And I said, well, it's just your home garden. You got three boys who like to go pee outside. Just tell them where they can and can't go.
00:45:32
Alexis
And you know, cause like,
00:45:32
Josh
yeah yeah They eat a lot of protein so it's gonna be like predator smelling.
00:45:36
Brett
It's gonna smell scary.
00:45:37
atack2010
Yeah, and there is there is the commercial protein stuff.
00:45:38
Josh
but
00:45:40
atack2010
Yeah, Josh, I've so i've seen that the protein repellents that it's just smells like animal protein.
00:45:44
Josh
Haha.
00:45:46
atack2010
So yeah, there you go, Alexis.
00:45:48
Josh
Haha.
00:45:48
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:45:48
atack2010
Yeah.
00:45:49
Alexis
So.
00:45:49
atack2010
And that I guess that goes along the same thing. I used to there's a big craze many years ago, and I still see it every now and again. And it seems kind of morbid to me when I really think about it and I verbalize it now, but it's bags of hair, hung in pantyhose to get the human smell.
00:46:00
Josh
Hmm.
00:46:02
Alexis
Mmhmm.
00:46:04
atack2010
I've heard that. I know that it works for some people, other people it doesn't. And that's one of the points of the discussion today.
00:46:10
Josh
I know if I was trying to break into a garden and I saw lots of bags of hair, I'd be like, I don't like what's happening here.
00:46:14
atack2010
Bags of hair.
00:46:17
Alexis
I'm gonna pass.
00:46:19
Josh
i don't I can't tell if these are trophies that are telling me to, you know, I'm next.
00:46:19
atack2010
Yeah.
00:46:22
atack2010
Abandoned hope all ye who enter.
00:46:23
Alexis
ah I might be on a true crime podcast next, but not in the way you think.
00:46:27
atack2010
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:27
Josh
Right.
00:46:29
atack2010
Trying to get that smell in the area, I guess, whether it be pee or hair, I mean.
00:46:34
Alexis
Yeah, I've heard of people who, uh, like contact their local barber and get like all the waste hair and they sprinkle it around the edge of the garden, which is fine until it rains.
00:46:39
atack2010
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:44
Alexis
And then really the smell kind of dissipates after the rain, but there's that.
00:46:46
Josh
Yeah.
00:46:47
Brett
That was...
00:46:47
Josh
Well, and it's also free lice.
00:46:49
atack2010
Yeah.
00:46:50
Brett
Yeah.
00:46:51
atack2010
I don't know the effectiveness of any of a lot of these methods, yeah.
00:46:52
Brett
it was ah in the movie the and That was in the movie of The Rookie with Dennis Quaid. Do you guys remember that movie?
00:46:57
Alexis
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:59
Brett
Where he's like an old guy who like has a renaissance of his career somehow or something.
00:46:59
atack2010
I do.
00:47:02
Alexis
Uh-huh.
00:47:03
Brett
there was There was part where they were trying to get grass to grow in the um in the outfield or something and they put the hair around it.
00:47:06
Alexis
Yeah.
00:47:09
Brett
and so you know you site It's just c site your source of The Rookie.
00:47:11
atack2010
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:12
Alexis
If Dennis Quaid doesn't.
00:47:14
Josh
Right.
00:47:15
atack2010
There you go.
00:47:15
Brett
um
00:47:16
atack2010
If it's in the rookie, it's good enough for me.
00:47:18
Alexis
Obviously, if it's in a movie, it's got to be true, so.
00:47:21
atack2010
all of All of these things we're talking about, today some of the some of these things we kind of laugh about, they're anecdotal. And some of the things that, you know, obviously a fence is gonna, you know, do a pretty good job if you erect a big... barrier. I mean, it worked for medieval castles. It's going to work for your garden or commercial operation. It's an expensive option. But ah the third point, the wildlife biologist stressed to me, ah he said, your mileage is going to vary if you use the same tactic in different situations. It depends on the motivation of the animal. And he said, believe it or not, I guess, and he was familiar with some studies that I have never looked up.
00:47:54
atack2010
But some animals just have more of a tolerance for the taste repellents for the
00:47:55
Alexis
but
00:47:58
Josh
and
00:47:59
Alexis
Uh-huh.
00:48:00
atack2010
Spicy repellents and the putrid egg solid repellents ah So it depends on how hungry the animal is and Alexis you mentioned that on your farm There is a alfalfa field that is close by which is probably the best munch munching of deers ever gonna do is in an alfalfa field So what are they just kind of I'm guessing they just cross your place to get there to the more.
00:48:05
Alexis
and sir
00:48:09
Alexis
and sir
00:48:19
Alexis
I hope so. I mean, so far, they they've
00:48:20
Josh
All right, her place is like maybe a dessert like once I get there Phil I
00:48:20
atack2010
Yeah. Yeah It's like a road it's like a road stop. Yeah, it's it's just like a red stop
00:48:26
Alexis
They must be pretty lazy because they, they don't seem to, although I have found some damage, but I'm not certain it is a deer. Even though we've seen deer tracks, it feels more like a rabbit to me of just nipping off the tops of some plant of my, uh, some of my perennials.
00:48:40
atack2010
Is it li like everything low? it looks like real that that You can tell, yeah.
00:48:42
Alexis
Well, the they're they're they're flocks. So they're only about, you know, three foot high and or two foot high anyway.
00:48:46
atack2010
Okay, they're low, yeah.
00:48:49
Alexis
So um but it's it's I don't know. It's ah it's just a little little sketchy, a little sketchy in there. I mean, it even could be an insect.
00:48:55
atack2010
Rabbits, soul but they'll munch along.
00:48:56
Alexis
But I think um I think the way it is, it's at the very end of a row, too. So.
00:49:03
atack2010
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:05
Alexis
Okay, well, yeah, wildlife management. Basically what I usually tell people is there's probably not just one answer and you're going to have to try a couple of different things to see what the tolerance of your specific raccoon problem might be or vole or whatever that is because what We can give you the best option. A lot of those times, the those best options, the ones that we you know say will work 100% of the time. For example, if you hit a mole with a harpoon trap, um it will take care of your mole problem. But a lot of times, people don't want to do that, or they you know maybe they can't put out poison baits if that's kind of the the method they want to do because of dogs or other other animals, ah just for personal reasons. so
00:49:51
Alexis
ah There's not always that, but like what I have done, I've used the capsaicin for voles and it works great for me, but that doesn't mean it will, number one, work again if I need to put it down, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it'll work for my neighbor or someone ah else around the state.
00:50:01
atack2010
Yeah.
00:50:05
atack2010
Mm-hmm.
00:50:06
Alexis
so
00:50:06
Josh
Their balls might be Cajun, you know, they might be into it.
00:50:09
Alexis
Right?
00:50:09
atack2010
It could be, they may love that spot.
00:50:09
Alexis
Like I, you know, you don't know. They're like a little spicy. So, uh, you, you just kind of have to try some different things. But if you wanted the one thing that definitely will work, uh, as long as you build it correctly for the pest problem that you have to identify first is an exclusion.
00:50:26
Alexis
by a fence or something. So if you don't want to go through that problem of like, let's try this and then let's try this, ah then go ahead and invest in that. And then at least you have it. you know So usually those fences are something you can put up every year um and is it's kind of a one-time investment for the most part.
00:50:26
atack2010
Hmm.
00:50:36
Josh
I don't know.
00:50:37
atack2010
Yeah.
00:50:44
atack2010
Yeah, that's the two main things I usually recommend. um If it's a valuable crop is exclusion and habitat modification. I start with the two upper tiers. And if it's a homeowner, we talk a lot about the repellents and things like that. So you can add those in. if you're a homeowner where maybe it's a little bit more low key scenario. And once again, don't forget to that we have here in Kentucky and probably in your state where you're listening from. ah We do have a wildlife biologist that can take a phone call and work a lot more in depth on some of these ah situations. Once again, they can give you the you know the legal status of the critter and help you identify the critter that's causing you problems.
00:51:25
Alexis
Awesome. All right. Well, um, thank you all for, for being here and for giving us the suggestion, uh, and for reaching out. So it is proof that we do read your emails and see your messages. So if you have any ideas for future episodes, we're always interested in that. it This message reminded us we had it done an episode on this. So, but if you'd like something, maybe more specific about wildlife, or maybe we can bring on, um, our wildlife specialists, that we have at UK who's a cool guy. I can tell you some real funny stories about trapping beavers of all things, but he knows a lot. Very, very great. We'll put ah links to those websites down below where you can do some more reading, try to you know help you identify maybe what's causing some problems in there and you can always reach out with photos to your local county extension office.
00:52:15
Alexis
and we can help you with that. But that is today's episode. And we hope that as we grow this podcast, you will grow with us. Have a great one.