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Food Safety in Kentucky With Special Guest Bryan Brady
64 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Hort Culture, we're joined by Bryan Brady from the Cultivate Kentucky Partnership at The Food Connection. Bryan shares his invaluable insights on assisting produce farmers to navigate the complexities of entering wholesale markets. He delves into innovative, cost-effective strategies for meeting food safety and quality assurance requirements, a crucial step for local farmers aiming to expand their reach. Tune in to discover how Bryan's expertise is fostering growth and sustainability in Kentucky's agricultural community.
Cultivate Kentucky-The Food Connection
Produce Safety at theCenter For Crop Diversification
Questions/Comments/Feedback/Suggestions for Topics: [email protected]
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Transcript
Halloween Candy Preferences
00:00:16
Alexis
All right. Rapid fire. Favorite Halloween candy.
00:00:19
Brett
who Whoa, Ray.
00:00:21
atack2010
Well, that was aggressive.
00:00:21
Alexis
right Ray.
00:00:23
atack2010
Me?
00:00:23
Alexis
Ray.
00:00:24
atack2010
Not candy corn.
00:00:25
Brett
Oh, candy corn feels like it feels like a government surplus program to the pass office candy.
00:00:26
atack2010
Anything but candy corn.
00:00:26
Alexis
That.
00:00:28
atack2010
It's not so much about me saying what I like, but throwing shade on candy corn.
00:00:31
Alexis
yes
00:00:31
atack2010
Next.
00:00:32
Alexis
Such a hater. Jessica.
00:00:36
atack2010
Thank you, Brett.
00:00:37
Alexis
No more haters.
00:00:38
atack2010
Thank you. Thank you.
00:00:40
Brett
Yeah.
00:00:41
Alexis
Jessica.
00:00:44
Alexis
Uh-oh.
00:00:45
Brett
I'll go, I'll go next.
00:00:45
Alexis
Oh, Jessica's gone.
00:00:47
Brett
Uh, so I think, uh, I would say for me, the classic Halloween candy, as far as this time of year is the big pumpkin Reese's.
00:00:48
Alexis
Brett. and
00:00:59
atack2010
Oh, man.
00:01:00
Jessica
That's what I was going to say.
00:01:00
Brett
But, Oh, so I actually, I'm going to retract my answer.
00:01:02
atack2010
Oh, that's so good. It's so good. The pumpkin.
00:01:05
Alexis
Brett's been muting her on purpose so that he could say that first.
00:01:08
Brett
Yeah. I muted, muted her. Um, but in, in ah in a, in a mix, I do like a a little Snickers.
00:01:15
Alexis
Okay.
00:01:15
atack2010
Yeah.
00:01:16
Alexis
All right.
00:01:16
Jessica
Oh, maybe I'll take it back.
00:01:16
atack2010
OK.
00:01:16
Alexis
All right. Jessica, you're, are you sticking with pumpkin Reese's or what?
00:01:20
Jessica
There's just something different about the shaped Reese's when they're in the pumpkin form and egg Christmas tree form.
00:01:23
Alexis
Fact. Yeah.
00:01:26
Brett
Yeah, way more peanut butter.
00:01:27
Alexis
ah yeah
00:01:28
Jessica
Yeah, they're really good.
00:01:28
Bryan
Yes.
00:01:29
atack2010
The ratio is different.
00:01:29
Jessica
Um, I get to claim that but like the mom tax, like the dad tax now, you know, my kids with their Halloween candy.
00:01:34
Brett
o
00:01:36
Jessica
So, but I would say those are probably can't go wrong with that.
00:01:36
Alexis
Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:39
Brett
Wait, so I named your top two as well.
00:01:42
Jessica
What was the other one?
00:01:43
Brett
Oh, you said you were going to change your answer.
00:01:44
Alexis
Snickers.
00:01:45
Jessica
Oh, yeah, that one. And I really like Milky Ways.
00:01:48
Brett
Oh, yeah.
00:01:48
atack2010
True.
00:01:48
Jessica
When you said a little Snickers, I was like, oh, I like a little Milky Way.
00:01:51
Alexis
mo milkka All right, we have guests on today.
00:01:52
Brett
Yeah, I prefer a Milky Way in small form to large form.
00:01:56
Jessica
Yeah.
00:01:56
atack2010
true
00:01:59
Alexis
Brian, what is your Halloween candy of choice?
00:02:02
Bryan
Skittles.
00:02:03
Alexis
OK, all right.
00:02:04
Bryan
Yeah.
00:02:04
Jessica
Oh. well
00:02:05
Bryan
I go for the Starburst and Skittles, like the fruity stuff.
00:02:05
atack2010
Face the rainbow.
00:02:05
Alexis
Listen.
00:02:08
Bryan
And I think the Halloween bag of Skittles is perfect to dump the whole thing in your mouth.
00:02:09
Alexis
Yeah.
00:02:13
Brett
on Mmm.
00:02:14
Bryan
Perfect size.
00:02:15
atack2010
they They are. I mean, that you have a very good point there. a c r is Yeah, there you go.
00:02:18
Alexis
Yeah.
00:02:19
Brett
One shot one smile.
00:02:22
atack2010
it Skittles, one of those things that if you leave it in the bag, like I've noticed some Halloween candy when you leave in the bag too long, it homogenizes with its neighbors.
00:02:30
Alexis
Use one giant Skittle.
00:02:30
atack2010
I don't need a lot of Skittles, so hopefully it resists that.
00:02:30
Bryan
Yeah.
00:02:33
Brett
In our at our family growing up we had like for the candy distribution we had a jar of chocolate based and a jar of fruit based.
00:02:34
atack2010
or
00:02:41
Jessica
Oh.
00:02:42
Alexis
Good, yeah.
00:02:42
Brett
Kept them separate to not to not allow that.
00:02:42
atack2010
Well, thank you.
00:02:45
Brett
To your point, Ray, we you know we took it very seriously and I'm glad to see someone else here ah goes against candy corn and also doesn't doesn't like to mix those flavors.
00:02:46
atack2010
I don't like to mix anything chocolate-based with anything else.
00:02:55
Jessica
yeah
00:02:59
Jessica
Candy corn, solo, eh. Mix it with some peanuts, got a payday.
00:03:05
atack2010
That's like covering garbage with chocolate, but I'm going to say that.
00:03:07
Bryan
I understand.
00:03:07
Jessica
No, you gotta try it. I thought it was, I thought it'd be disgusting.
00:03:09
atack2010
I have tried that actually. It is better. It is better.
00:03:12
Brett
Yeah, like grass clippings? Terrible. But put it in some ice cream?
00:03:15
atack2010
Yes, thank you.
00:03:15
Jessica
I think it's good, right?
00:03:16
Brett
Mmm.
00:03:16
Alexis
If you pour ranch dressing over it, you call it a salad, so I don't really see like what the problem there is.
00:03:19
Brett
Yeah.
00:03:20
Jessica
You just put ranch dressing on anything and it makes it better, right?
00:03:23
atack2010
Candy corn included, yes.
00:03:26
Alexis
Listen, say I like candy corn by itself, and I'm not afraid to say it.
00:03:26
atack2010
It would have to be here.
00:03:29
Brett
Oh.
00:03:30
Alexis
I will eat it.
00:03:30
Brett
What happened to you?
00:03:31
Jessica
Do you like the pumpkin form?
00:03:32
Alexis
Yeah. Trauma.
00:03:34
Brett
Yeah, it's given Room Springer. Like, oh, what does this candy?
00:03:37
atack2010
and
00:03:39
Bryan
Oh.
00:03:39
Brett
Yeah.
00:03:39
atack2010
It's like pain for my mouth.
00:03:42
Brett
Yeah. Well, so is that your answer is candy corn?
00:03:45
Alexis
No, I was going to say Smarties.
00:03:47
atack2010
Smarties?
00:03:48
Brett
Smarties.
00:03:48
Alexis
Yeah.
00:03:49
Brett
Oh my gosh.
00:03:49
atack2010
Yeah, smarties.
00:03:50
Brett
This is like pre-industrial food ah candy preferences.
00:03:53
atack2010
Like, chocolate.
00:03:55
Brett
Be like, oh, sometimes grandmother will throw some maple syrup in the snow and we can suck on it during the, you know, like that sounds awesome, but like.
00:03:56
atack2010
Like.
00:04:02
Alexis
okay Okay, but you you're making fun of it.
00:04:03
atack2010
Hmm.
00:04:05
Alexis
but So back in the day when we used to go to Blockbuster, right? and getting Everybody here remembers going to Blockbuster and getting getting your movie for the weekend?
00:04:12
Jessica
Yes, because we're all elder millennials or older.
00:04:14
Alexis
because that were Well, Rey's an actual vampire from the 1700s, but other than Rey.
00:04:18
Jessica
Right.
00:04:19
atack2010
I am. I'm her.
00:04:22
Alexis
My, you know, my dad used to get all the old fashioned candy from when he was young. So like the wax bottles that they had like, like liquid in and all that old.
00:04:29
Jessica
Mm hmm.
00:04:29
Brett
Yeah.
00:04:29
atack2010
Oh, yeah.
00:04:30
Alexis
Yeah. I had all the old candy and mom didn't allow sugar cereal.
00:04:32
Brett
So if we interviewed your if weve interviewed your dad, and he said that, I wouldn't have made fun of him, but you being, you know, young.
00:04:38
Alexis
Listen, listen, I like smarty.
00:04:39
atack2010
You.
00:04:42
Brett
And and he's like, oh, you know, I i could go for a a regular M&M.
00:04:47
Jessica
Ugh.
00:04:47
Brett
And it's the same thing of like, oh, wow. Yeah. Like, what was what was it like to live through World War II?
00:04:51
Alexis
ah great depression like no those are gross my dad actually loved necko wafers I did not like them because he because they had licorice I don't like licorice flavors black licorice so yeah it
00:04:52
Brett
Yeah.
00:04:53
atack2010
Yeah, I can taste it man.
00:04:55
Bryan
Do you also like the Valentine's Day hearts?
00:04:58
Brett
Yeah. like nicko What about Necco wafers?
00:04:59
Bryan
well
00:05:01
Brett
Do you like those?
00:05:04
Brett
Oh my gosh.
00:05:08
Brett
Wow. Well, you know, you bring this up and you kind of sprung it on me and something be a little serious to be a little serious is that this is spooky season.
Brian Brady's Role in Food Safety
00:05:17
atack2010
It is.
00:05:17
Brett
And some of us are, gets really scared.
00:05:17
Alexis
is
00:05:20
Brett
And one of the things that I can think of that is the scariest of all, foodborne illness.
00:05:25
Alexis
I would say E. coli.
00:05:26
Jessica
um Yes, nobody wants that.
00:05:27
Brett
Yeah. Food safety is...
00:05:29
atack2010
an hour
00:05:30
Alexis
Brian, and is it fun that people think about E. coli when they think about you? How's that feel?
00:05:36
Bryan
Do they really? Yeah. I guess maybe that's just, that's better.
00:05:39
Brett
I think B.
00:05:40
Alexis
like wait
00:05:40
Brett
Brady E. Coli.
00:05:43
Bryan
Yeah. Be pretty cool. I think it's just, that's probably better than thinking, oh God, food safety.
00:05:44
Alexis
and
00:05:50
Alexis
So Brian, introduce yourself to everybody because we are terrible at doing that.
00:05:55
Bryan
ah Sure. Um, I am Brian Brady. I work at the food connection at UK, which is a relatively, well, I would say new department, but we've really been around for eight or nine years now. um And part of the goal of the food connection is to connect farmers to um larger wholesale markets that they can sell into institutions. ah And my job in regard to that is to help produce farmers specifically um kind of jump through the food safety hurdles of getting a what's known as a third party food safety audit.
00:06:36
Bryan
um which is generally required from any kind of buyer that's going to sell into an institution.
00:06:44
Alexis
Big things, big, important things.
00:06:47
Brett
So just to break down a little bit of what you said there, just because sometimes I think people have this idea of the local food world and they imagine things like a farmer's market or maybe if they're hip, they're aware of what a CSA is or something like that. And it's kind of this smaller rustic, smaller volumes, freshness, all the awesome things we love about local food. And then they also have experience going to the grocery store or going to you know out to eat or something like that.
00:07:13
Brett
And a lot of that stuff, it's kind of like, I don't know where that comes from. but So you're saying that you're you're working with these local producers that we would think of as local food producers and trying to help them access markets where like lots and lots of people eat that food or or buy that stuff.
00:07:29
Brett
Is that that right?
00:07:30
Bryan
Yes. Yes. And, you know, with with cost effectiveness in mind, you know, we're we're not trying to to push farmers into wholesale markets where they're really struggle.
00:07:36
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:07:40
Bryan
um But, you know, we we try to not just help them get through the food safety stuff, but also kind of figure out the markets to make sense for them. But for some growers, ah the small, medium sized farms of Kentucky, it's starting to make sense.
00:07:54
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:07:57
Brett
So what kind of what kind of markets you know are like in in broad strokes are these people accessing or interested in accessing?
00:08:03
Bryan
So, sure. ah for So not necessarily the Walmarts and Krogers. of the world. However, there are some larger groups in Kentucky that kind of aggregate and sell that way. There are some Amish and Mennonite communities, particularly down in Scottsville, that aggregate a lot of product and sell into Walmart and Kroger ah kind of supply chains. But most of what most of the folks that we're working with are selling into kind of these intermediary
00:08:37
Bryan
wholesale market channels where, um you know, let's say University of Kentucky or, um you know, other universities, maybe hospitals, things like that are interested in having local food at their salad bar um or in their cafeteria. But they participate in buying programs with, ah you know, they they they're getting their produce from a distributor.
00:09:06
Bryan
And those distributors require these third party food safety audits to protect themselves if there is any issue with produce. And so when the food connection was kind of born out of the contract with the Aramark that University of Kentucky signed, they realized really quickly that there was a huge bottleneck.
00:09:31
Bryan
issue with getting these farms into these market channels that they were going to have to have these gap audits and nobody really knew what to do from there.
00:09:40
atack2010
Thank you.
00:09:41
Brett
yeah So part of that contract was that the Aramark agreed as they took over dining services that they would purchase a certain amount of local food.
00:09:52
Bryan
Yes.
00:09:52
Brett
And they weren't able to supply that because there weren't enough people who were producing enough food that had gone through this process that you're describing of getting an audit.
00:10:02
Bryan
Correct,
Food Safety Regulations and Practices
00:10:03
Bryan
yes.
00:10:03
Brett
Now, is an audit like, is that like a legal requirement? Like, is that a federal, the are the feds coming in and telling us we gotta do this with the with a a gap audit or is this something else?
00:10:15
Bryan
No, this so these gap audits are totally voluntary. um you know The farmer really, this is kind of at the behest of the buyer. If you have a buyer that you have in mind or a buyer that wants to buy from you,
00:10:28
Bryan
um it's It's really the buyer that does that requires the audit. There are a couple of different types, and these are generally referred to as good agricultural practice audits or gap audits. And there are a couple of different audit schemes, but generally, if you're going to sell to a distributor or somebody who's aggregating produce, they're going to require you as a buyer to have some sort of gap audit. it um And again, that is just kind of a protection to cover, you know,
00:10:59
Bryan
ah Cover yourself type thing that everybody does along the supply chain
00:11:06
atack2010
I hear a lot of comments from, uh, local producers of Brown that even if something like that is not required at whatever level they're doing it, they're starting to be of the opinion now. And I'm glad that they need to make, I hear this comment a lot, all reasonable efforts to ensure, you know, the utmost safety. And that's becoming more of a prevalent thought, which I'm really glad of that. I think the more that you can, um, give yourself knowledge to keep, you know, whatever product that you're offering up to keep that as safe as possible is a good thing.
00:11:36
atack2010
ah So I'm kind of glad so and that in turn kind of as producers get a little bit bigger that I've worked with there more, um you know, it doesn't take much to persuade them to go through whatever processes they need to be to be formally recognized, you know, through these audits and things and I'm kind of glad the attitude seems to be better now much better than it was, let's say 1520 years ago, it was a much different time than for horticulture products in Kentucky, it seems like
00:12:03
Bryan
Yeah, I think um we've we've seen the the attitude shift as well. um i think I think that people in general um can also use the planning that goes around getting prepared for these audits to also help them.
00:12:09
atack2010
ah
00:12:18
Bryan
They generally just feel more organized on the farm in general. um but you know every you know, we we do a lot of one on one ah help on farm. And when we go out there, a lot of these farms are already doing some of the stuff that's required. You know, a lot of this just comes down to, you know, writing it down and keeping records. um There are things that we, you know, a lot of times we are going to help you change a couple things here and there. But everybody's in the same mindset where
00:12:52
Bryan
If one farm fails at this and somebody gets sick, then it will affect, you know, produce, Kentucky produce across the market. ah You know, we're we're usually not talking talking about farmer's market level farms in this regard, but they would be affected too if there was a big, you know, human pathogen outbreak from produce. And, you know, so everybody's kind of been this together and does seem to have a better attitude about it than when I started.
00:13:22
Jessica
That makes sense because when you think back about like when they had um like issues with melons and stuff that were happening like nationwide, even though it wasn't necessarily in our state, you know but it all trickles all the way back down to some of you you know your local farmer's market vendors where people might be a little leery of purchasing some of those items once you know things hit the media and social media with all that information.
00:13:51
Brett
So to clarify or confuse, I don't know. So you've got the this gap audit stuff that you're talking about. And so that's like a c sort of a certification process where you get checked out, you do some you have lots of record keeping, you're you're just showing that you're taking the steps to try to prevent that stuff from happening. So you got that. And I think of that almost like a different version of almost like you have to have your food food ah handlers permit in order to work and you know like at a food ah restaurant or something like that. it's The business is requiring it because it makes sense, but it's not. But there are some other things, and we won't go too far down this rabbit hole because we could talk to have some other folks we could bring in to talk about. the the There are some federal law around food safety stuff hovering out there. Is that is that correct?
00:14:39
Bryan
Yes, um so that the big one is the Food Safety Modernization Act, and that's generally referred to as FSMA. And it covers the entire food chain. um And the the part that affects Kentucky produce farmers is the Produce Safety Rule.
00:15:00
Bryan
And this law was passed all the way back in 2011. So it was even before the cantaloupe listeria outbreak, I think. I believe there were a couple of like spinach E. coli outbreaks that became really, really big news. um And the public started to realize that you know there you know if If something like that happens, then people from all 50 states can be affected because you know the spinach that you're buying at the grocery store could all be coming from one enormous farm. um and so They passed the Food Safety Modernization Act, and then it has taken
00:15:45
Bryan
until now and even longer there's still some things they're working through um to kind of hammer home what what you know what these regulations are going to look like, what farms are going to be affected, there's been tons of back and forth with producer groups and and they have been relatively flexible as they've implemented this. And so now we're kind of in this phase with phys mode where The rules are there, the trainings are available. Now the states are doing kind of the work and the training and the enforcement, the State Departments of Ag are doing it for the FDA. um So in Kentucky, we've got a training that goes along with it um that the Department of Ag and Food Safety or Food Systems Innovation Center at UK kind of head up and
00:16:36
Bryan
Yeah, it's ah that is a regulation. And so if you meet a couple of these requirements along, it has to do with do you grow covered produce, which is generally going to be the type of produce that people eat raw.
00:16:48
Bryan
When you think about produce, there's very few things out there that we buy from the grocery store that we're eating raw. Either but we're going to cook it, or it's been cooked beforehand when it's been value added, ah you know turned into a value added product.
00:16:55
Alexis
Mm.
00:17:02
Bryan
But with produce, there's quite a few things where we are just eating it raw and it is growing in the field. um And it's great and it's good for us. And we should be eating those things, but there's risk involved with that. And so that's why there is federal regulation around the stuff that's eaten raw. And if you grow a certain amount from a money perspective, then you do get covered by this rule and you might end up having an inspection from the State Department of Act.
00:17:34
Alexis
Bum, bum, bum.
00:17:34
atack2010
And I guess all that being said, that's what brings people to you. Hopefully that they know about you, a person like you as a resource. Is that sort of the motivation they learn hat through however method or information source they learn about you? And is that what brings them to you at that point? Sometimes ah when they realize that there is regulations or either that, or that they're at that level of production to where they have to officially, I guess, you know, or by regulation, get a gap audit it is, or are they getting ahead of the curve?
00:18:05
Bryan
Well, so um i you know over the eight years I've been here, we people have been kind of funneled to me through different ways. um And the majority of them are funneled to me for that gap audit assistance, that voluntary audit that you would get. But um there's so much confusion from the FSMA rollout along, you know, whether whether it be from farmers or all the way to county agents to even extension associates and specialists that that, you know, there's a lot of rumors about, oh, this is going to be required. And so with something like this, when you hear the word regulation, like things kind of get thrown around. So I get people ah related to FSMA stuff, too. um But, you know, we um
00:18:58
Bryan
You know, we've we've tried to, I mean, we talked about this earlier. it's It's just a, it's been difficult to communicate to everybody what's required of them. But, you know, with FISMA, that's the regulation. In Kentucky, you know, there is a course that's free for farmers that you have to take once in a lifetime. And so that's something that, you know, we've been,
00:19:26
Bryan
Not necessarily we, but I do help do the trainings, ah but you know lots of other agencies that are in charge of it have been trying to communicate to farmers that this is something that's available to them and that they'll need to do.
00:19:38
Brett
So without you know not going too far into the weeds here, I just want to like emphasize why this is so notable or interesting or or whatever. is You joke that you know ah people say, oh, food safety and kind of cringe or roll their eyes or fall asleep or run away.
00:19:51
Alexis
What?
00:19:53
Brett
I don't know what the breakdown on the reactions are, but it's taking this thing that we all kind of agree on that when I go and get food from a place and I eat it, I would like to not get sick.
00:19:54
Bryan
Yeah.
00:20:08
Alexis
why
00:20:08
Brett
and trying to figure out how to make that a real thing with through all these networks of people, all the different, I mean, kind of gross, kind of inspiring all the different hands that touch that product in the course of it being delivered to you.
00:20:26
Brett
And that, I mean, that to me, it's like this weird, such a, such an intensely fundamental human thing of like, we're trying to protect people from getting sick. That is like the reason why we're doing all this. And yes, all this stuff is kind of annoying sometimes and the double checks and the triple checks. But I think ah with your, with your orientation, with the gap audit and with the kind of that, that industry oriented,
00:20:50
Brett
Audit requirement that was in correct me if i'm wrong was kind of out ahead of a lot of the food safety modernization act these gap audits have been happening. For a while before that is that right.
00:21:00
Bryan
Yes. Yes.
00:21:01
Brett
Yeah it's like these larger larger networks had had some of that in place. I'm just kind of curious pragmatically, what are the types of things that farms tend to do better once they've worked with you? Or that, you know, if they're trying to make their food safer or at least enhance the odds of it being safe, what are the types of actual practical steps that you see playing out like on the ground that people are doing?
00:21:26
Bryan
That's a good question. um so You know, one thing that we try to tell farms when we first meet with them is, you know, you're probably doing a lot of this stuff that's required of you already. um But the as far as the stuff that they may need to implement that they're not already doing, um I would say, like, let's take um washing produce, for example.
00:21:53
Bryan
um There's kind of this idea amongst farms and farmers and that washing is better. um And the reality of washing produce is you're not going to um from a human pathogenic sense.
00:22:12
Bryan
make it safer by washing it. ah You are just generally doing this from a marketing standpoint. So, yeah, if you're harvesting something in and the dead of summer that, um you know, is some sort of leafy vegetable that's going to, you know, benefit from the hydrate, you know, benefit from cooling from water ah or, you know,
00:22:37
Bryan
benefit just in general from you know something like dunk washing. ah Or let's say, yeah, you're harvesting root vegetables and you're trying to sell them with the leaves still attached and you want them to look really pretty at market, then you're going to want to use some sort of rent station or something like that from a marketing standpoint. But every time you introduce water, every time you wash, you are you know, bringing about different food safety implications.
00:23:02
Bryan
um The one in particular, I think that people don't generally know about is if with dunk washing ah or so when I say dunk washing, I mean, we're going to fill up a big tub essentially with water, municipal water, for sure.
00:23:15
Alexis
Give it a bath.
00:23:17
Bryan
We're going to fill up a big a tub with water. And we're going to take our product and we're going to dunk it in there to kind of get, and this is generally like lettuce heads, leafy greens, stuff like that. We're dunking it in there to get the dirt off and that let that sink to the bottom and then taking it out, drying it, and then storing it. um The thing that is not usually common knowledge is that you really need to use a sanitizer in that water.
00:23:40
Bryan
um And if you think of it kind of as a pool or like what's the object of using a sanitizer in ah in a community pool? It's not to clean you when you get in the pool. It's to keep the water clean so that if somebody has something, some sort of pathogen and they get in the pool, it doesn't make everybody else in the pool sick. So I would say that's probably the most common one.
00:24:05
Bryan
Other things are like cleaning food contact surfaces. really So most farms are already cleaning things and using like dish soap and and water to rinse harvest tools and things like that. There's an extra added step um of sanitization ah that generally takes place. And if you've worked at a restaurant or something, you probably know the three compartment sink where the first sink is soap and water, then there's a rinse sink or a dunk sink, and then there's sanitizer. And that sanitizer, adding that at the end and letting it dry is just an extra step of precaution or safety. So ah yeah, the use of sanitizer is a big one.
00:24:44
Brett
Well, I think you know as I ah think of it analytically, when you're trying to make an operation food safe, you have to be right thousands or millions of times and you only really have to be wrong once.
00:25:00
Alexis
No pressure.
00:25:00
Brett
and
00:25:00
Bryan
Yes.
00:25:01
Brett
And so you're like building in all of these systems to try to keep keep from making so kind of silly errors. or but And I think the other thing that's interesting in talking with you and and talking with ah paul priesh Dr. Paul Priesh, who works with the more with the FISMA stuff and the that we were talking about with the regulations, maybe we'll have him on to talk about FISMA at some point.
00:25:24
Brett
Is that like it's not, it's not like a lot of this, some, I guess sometimes maybe it is really egregious mistakes that people make, but a lot of times these food safety things are caused by really hard to predict things. And and that's why they build these audits out and they built these, ah um,
00:25:42
Brett
uh, the regulation out is to try to sort of say, these are the ways that we know that things get contaminated. Here's how to kind of prevent that. But I remember one of the, I think it was one of the cantaloupe outbreaks. The way that it happened was that there was a little pool of water outside one of the packing houses that he collected. And there was a truck that was coming in to pick stuff up that had been at some point on like a cattle farm or some livestock farm.
00:26:07
Brett
And as it's driving by, the little bit of cow residue on the tires hits the water, splashes the water into the packing house, which then spreads the, so it wasn't like they were running their cattle through the cantaloupe field and then pulling them out and not washing them or whatever.
00:26:23
Bryan
Right.
00:26:24
Brett
And it just, those little, it reminds me of the like thing, I don't know if y'all did this in school, they would like put the dye thing on your hands and then you would go and like touch stuff and like, Wash your hands and then you didn't you know, you didn't get it off or whatever.
00:26:30
Alexis
Well yeah, and then...
00:26:31
Bryan
Oh.
00:26:32
Jessica
Mm-hmm
00:26:35
Brett
It's like that kind of thing. And and so you're just trying to be overly ah per recall Yeah cautious and mindful about trying to put these things into place and a lot of it is kind of installing Like protocols in place.
00:26:43
Alexis
Mindful.
00:26:51
Brett
Is that right? I mean as much as specific practices.
00:26:52
Bryan
Yes.
00:26:54
Brett
It's like documenting it and
00:26:56
Bryan
Yes. um So we utilize standard operating procedures a ton. And what a standard operating procedure is, or it's generally referred to as an SOP, is a kind of series of steps for a task that are written out so that anybody that does those tasks does them exactly the same way every time.
00:27:19
Alexis
Mm.
00:27:21
Bryan
um there's actually you know It's actually relatively easy to write them. um you If you have a task that you want to write an SOP for, one person can sit down with paper and pen, and the other person can perform the task. And as you perform the task, you kind of break it down into simple steps.
00:27:41
Bryan
um And then you would you know kind of pass that along to somebody else to to use that draft that you've created, watch them do it. If they screw up or do something you don't want them to do, then you've identified something um you know that you need to fix in the SOP. And um you know there are lots of tools out there for you to do it now. One of the things when we we sometimes do food safety plan writing workshops. And one of the things that we show people now is that you can actually use AI to help you write standard operating procedures relatively well. ah You can't use it to to do everything for you. Yeah, obviously there's lots of caveats with that and you need to double check it just in the same way that you would double check it if you wrote it yourself. But yeah, there, you know,
00:28:32
Bryan
Anything repeatable on the farm that you want somebody to do the same way that encompasses kind of this control point where something could go wrong, ah we generally have SOPs for.
00:28:46
Bryan
So we even have hand-washing SOPs that are like, here's how you correctly wash your hands, because you...
00:28:51
atack2010
It sounds like a tremendous amount of communication. Like if you're, I know farm managers, I'm assuming that a lot of times they're the ones that you get approached by, but if they have workers, my goodness.
00:28:54
Bryan
Mm-hmm.
00:29:01
atack2010
Yeah. I'm thinking of when you mentioned SOPs, uh, that there's got to be sort of a, almost like a chain of command or chain of communication down the farm.
Success Stories and Extension Work
00:29:09
atack2010
Uh, is that the case when you have workers? I guess there's what special procedures are just straight up communication.
00:29:15
atack2010
I mean, how is that typically handled?
00:29:17
Bryan
Yeah, we try to hammer home the idea that, um you know, you don't want to approach this as like just jumping through hoops that are a hassle that the best way to do this is is to kind of try and instill a ah food safety culture amongst the workers.
00:29:31
Alexis
Mm.
00:29:33
Bryan
um have them kind of take some accountability with it. You want to encourage them to, if they see anything that they're concerned about to say something to you, um you know, kind of like if you're training a dog, you don't, you know, you want to make sure that if they do something wrong, there's kind of this positive reinforcement thing that you're trying to do with your workers.
00:29:52
Bryan
If they see something, don't admonish them for pointing it out. Say, OK, thank you for letting me know.
00:29:57
Alexis
Mm-hmm.
00:29:57
Bryan
Let's figure this out. But yeah, it's it's training is a huge part of it. And yeah, it's usually not something that's ah an egregious food safety issue that causes a problem. You know, really it can be something as simple as poor hand washing.
00:30:12
Bryan
Um, or irrigation water. It's not like people are seeing lettuce with bird poop on it and harvesting it and putting it into the supply chain. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, training is a huge part of it. And we do hammer that home. Um, that once you kind of develop all this stuff, it's very important to train at least annually. And when you hire somebody, uh, to the jobs that they'll specifically do on the farm.
00:30:36
Alexis
I immediately went to fold in the cheese for any of you who who've watched Schitt's Creek. She's like, what does that mean? Fold in the cheese. You just fold it in.
00:30:46
Brett
It's just as folded in.
00:30:47
Alexis
Just fold it in.
00:30:47
Brett
Folded in.
00:30:48
Jessica
Just fold of it in.
00:30:48
Alexis
Yes, but I understand. But what does that mean? And I just feel like that's SOPs right there.
00:30:54
Bryan
Yeah.
00:30:55
Alexis
That's what you don't want. But no, what what does that mean?
00:30:58
Bryan
And you could write an SOP where you said something exactly like that and you would think everybody knows that. And then when you watch somebody perform that s SOP and they say, what like the hell does this mean?
00:31:03
Alexis
Yeah.
00:31:09
atack2010
I've had farm managers that will test stuff out on their new workers that really don't have a clue and they never worked in that environment. And they so they I'm told that the sometimes they're shocked at some of the simple things that like new workers that really are you know at ground zero, they just they're like, what does this mean? And then the manager has to go back and then like, oh, you know we need to be more clear about that, ah what we're assuming that they know. So yeah, folding the cheese.
00:31:36
atack2010
yeah that That's a perfect yeah a perfect example. Yeah, it's really good.
00:31:42
Brett
Well, one of the things that I've I've always appreciated about your work. And I think, you know, I'm speaking as someone I work more at the state level, ah Jessica and Ray and Alexis until recently you worked at work at the the county level and get a little more of that direct contact. But a lot of the work that you're doing is very intensive, direct contact with producers.
00:32:00
Brett
And I think it's really appropriate for the nature of the type of work that you're doing. So I'd like to give you a second to just kind of brag a little bit on your success and your progress on getting people trained. How many folks have you had going through audits? do you see What do you see as the future of of the work that you're doing? um you know Whether that be supplemental resources that are needed or or anything like that. i'd I'd just love to hear a little bit about you know eight years in figuring it out. What's that look like?
00:32:30
Bryan
Yeah, a when I first started, I think there were, you know, to our knowledge, there were about seven or eight gap audited farms in the state, um very large farms, and most of them in Western Kentucky that were doing like a watermelon, I think, um something something of that nature.
00:32:50
Alexis
Hmm.
00:32:54
Bryan
And to this day, ah we have had I believe we just updated the numbers and I believe we have had 51 farms get audited.
00:33:06
Alexis
Wow.
00:33:08
Bryan
ah unique farms, we've had over 170 audits. So this is an annual, the audits are annual um if you're gonna maintain your gap certification.
00:33:16
Jessica
OK.
00:33:17
Bryan
So some farms do and some farms don't because they get into the wholesale market. And well, let's be honest, you know first off, either the wholesale the wholesome market may not be what they're looking for, may not have been what they wanted, but let's also be honest about the pandemic.
00:33:31
Bryan
I wanted to wholesale everything. ah So that changed things quite a bit.
00:33:36
Brett
Well, can you can you explain what for those who don't know?
00:33:38
Bryan
Yeah, yeah. like Let me jump off and explain that part.
00:33:39
Brett
them
00:33:41
Bryan
So the pandemic really crushed wholesale distribution because all of the larger places, institutions, schools, hospitals, cafeterias shut down, ah restaurants, everything overnight.
00:33:53
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:33:55
Brett
Restaurants.
00:33:57
Bryan
um And so all of those farms that had built up the ability to meet that demand loss in produce, you generally not operating off of a contract. you know You've got somebody's word, they're going to buy something for you.
00:34:13
Bryan
And when something like that happens, they're not going to buy it from you. um And it did cause a lot of farms in the state to pivot to direct to consumer models. A lot of folks went online, we'll deliver it to your door, or we will um curate a bag or some sort of pickup for you at the farmer's market so that we're kind of limiting human contact.
00:34:37
Bryan
And consumers responded, like they responded big time. They you know really bought into those markets and just everything really took off there. And so a lot of the folks that had tried wholesale and were kind of borderline on it and then had success selling direct to consumer ah never came back. But some of them did. And now we we see a lot of folks that are doing things like transitioning from ah growing tobacco ah so having a large acreage um are starting to see some of these distribution systems ah work and produce in the state and so they're saying okay well I can take the 20 acres that I used to grow tobacco on and maybe grow squash and then you know through that process somebody says well you got to contact this guy and get a gap audit and you got to contact this guy and do this and this person and do that and then
00:35:28
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:35:35
Bryan
And ah yeah, we had so we've had 51 farms, six facilities, I think. and And so the facilities are generally just um kind of aggregating, packing, and storing.
00:35:50
Bryan
And then you know the thing that I'm most proud of is that we have a 100% success rate in passing the audit the first time.
00:35:57
Jessica
That's
00:36:00
Alexis
Hell yeah!
00:36:00
Jessica
awesome.
00:36:00
Bryan
And that yeah that comes with the, you know, we're very clear with you about you're ready or you're not ready.
00:36:08
Alexis
Mm.
00:36:08
Bryan
I do not want you to have an auditor come out and, you know, you end up wasting money on them. We've had some really tough audits in the past, but everybody's passed.
00:36:19
Bryan
And, you know, we yeah we do, we play kind of an intimate role in like helping you get to that end point where you're going to have the audit And we say, Hey, you're ready.
00:36:31
Bryan
You know?
00:36:31
atack2010
You're teaching to the test, yeah.
00:36:33
Bryan
Yeah.
00:36:34
atack2010
Yeah, which is a good thing. That's a great thing, yeah.
00:36:36
Bryan
Yeah.
00:36:37
Brett
Well, I think and one of the things I'll just to put a little finer point on that success is that for for the 51 farms that have passed, I don't even know how many probably three or four to one as many who said maybe I'm interested and you help them understand what gap was, what wholesale markets were. And you sort of you the the number of people who are interested in this and we're kind of coming to you and and got referred to that I referred to you.
00:37:05
Brett
is way, way more than that. And it's something that we do a lot in extension.
00:37:07
Bryan
yeah
00:37:08
Brett
It's something you mentioned earlier of like, I'm not trying to push somebody into wholesale markets.
00:37:12
Alexis
Uh-huh.
00:37:12
Brett
And that is a really good ah outlook to have in this type of work because you know, you you could be 150 people that I got through these gap audits and three fourths of them were miserable and decided that it was a waste of time and money.
00:37:25
Alexis
Uh-huh.
00:37:25
Brett
And it's like, that's not a success. And so I think that's a really, really cool achievement. And, and I think that the,
00:37:32
Bryan
Yeah.
00:37:33
Brett
The idea of providing information so people can make their own decision and then support them if they decide to go in that direction is...
00:37:36
Bryan
Sure.
00:37:39
Brett
That's like the nature of the work that we do in Extension. And I think that's really, it should be, should be recognized as much as, as much as the 51 that did is the other folks who who decided, I'm going to go in a different direction or I'm going to pivot to direct to consumer. um Yeah. So who did you, so as far as like the, the funding for your position, the collaborator type people for your work, is there anybody that comes to mind in particular that you work a lot with or that, you know, other, other organizations, maybe people haven't heard of that they want to check out?
00:38:09
Bryan
Yeah. ah So we, my position was originally, um well, actually it's still funded, half of it's funded by the Kentucky Horticulture Council. um And, you know, a lot of the the rest of it's funded through grants, so it's kind of a soft funded position.
00:38:27
Bryan
um But we, you know, we work really directly with the Horticulture Council and Cindy Finneseth, who, you know, is is leaving as the executive director of the Horticulture Council, but and during her time has done some amazing work, has maintained a 75% cost share, actually, for the audit, um up to $1,250.
00:38:48
Alexis
Oh.
00:38:52
Bryan
We've reached a point where audits um kind of fall into two categories. One, if you have to go with one of the larger audits, you're probably going to go over that $1,250 mark, but you're at least going to get 75% of $1,250 back.
00:39:08
Bryan
um And you will it will probably make sense, financial sense for you to do one of those bigger audits. We're not going to, um like you said, we're not going to push a farm that it doesn't make sense to to to enter one of these larger markets.
00:39:21
Bryan
um And pay so much out of pocket to get the audit and then there's another group of farms really that are kind of able to do slightly cheaper audits um and after the cost share, it's really like $200, $300 out of pocket, which is great. It's been a difference maker for lots of farms. ah Some farms that were borderline needed that help in the first year. And the and the goal for that cost share is to help farms get over the hump the first year, then enter a wholesale markets, start making some money, and then next year potentially pay for it themselves.
00:39:56
Bryan
um we We do a lot of work with Food Systems Innovation Center as well as far as resource development goes. And you know we're we're we're constantly trying to develop resources that are useful for farmers. One of the things that we worked on a little bit this year um is developing a web based app where farms can keep records like real time in the field.
00:40:24
Alexis
Wow.
00:40:24
Bryan
um We actually had one of our farmers say, hey, ah you know, we're we're going to keep our records digital this year. Is that OK? And it's like, yeah, that's honestly if you can kind if you can timestamp them, that's even better because then you can recall whatever you need.
00:40:35
Alexis
Please.
00:40:42
Bryan
um You can even take pictures of something that might have happened in the field and keep track of it that way. And it was actually one of his H2A workers that said,
00:40:53
Bryan
you know boss, we don't want to we don't want to keep ah clipboards out in the field and keep records this way anymore. I want to just use my phone. And they kind of lit a light off in our head that said, I wonder if we can do like a web-based app where people can keep simple records.
00:41:08
Jessica
How nice.
00:41:09
Bryan
and We're not quite we're hopefully hopefully we can roll it out for people to play around with ah fruit and veg or at least make people aware of it. And then next season, we can kind of have some people test it out for us.
00:41:25
Bryan
You know, the the the one thing that we want is for them to be able to develop their own records, um like own record keeping sheet on there.
00:41:30
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:41:32
Bryan
We don't want everything to be like cut and dry. So that's one of the things that we've, you know, kind of done. Let's see, what else? We've worked with KCard. We direct people to KCard to get, um you know, because a lot of there's a lot of money out there right now in produce farming. And so we will direct people to KCard to think about different grants and stuff.
00:41:56
Bryan
a Center for Craft Diversification has been a great place for us to put resources on. um We also have you know tons of extension associates at the University of Kentucky that we spread information around with. you know Somebody's got this training, somebody's got this class, somebody's got this resource.
00:42:15
Bryan
um Yeah, we there's there's quite a few partner organizations. We've worked with Oak to do some trainings. We've worked with Black Soil to do some trainings. So I think you know it's people um it's much more common knowledge now that food safety is going to be something that has to be dealt with if you want to do something in the produce world. um And people have come to us to kind of help with that. And you know the one on like you said, the one-on-one stuff is is really, I think, why we're successful because farmers
00:42:58
Bryan
Attitudes change when you go out on the farm and meet them face to face and you tell them you can do this. ah If you just send the stuff to them and they look at it, it's very overwhelming.
00:43:11
Bryan
So if you can go out there and you can tell them you can do this um and then they shake hands with you, a lot of times that's that's where the difference is made and whether or not they do do it or not.
00:43:11
Jessica
yeah
Collaboration and Closing Remarks
00:43:24
Brett
I mean, I think you the thing I was mainly just trying to emphasize, and you did great, to to you to that there's like all of these different people working in support of Kentucky agriculture, Kentucky farmers.
00:43:24
Alexis
Mm hmm.
00:43:37
Brett
And I think you you have done a really great job of being networked with all of them and and being plugged in. And you and know i never hear I never hear a negative, I only hear positive things about you from these work in different organizations and groups, which speaks to, I think, the value of what you're bringing and how you're doing it.
00:43:53
Brett
um Just to let you know, if you had not named DropCCD, this comment would have gone very differently. I'm just teasing.
00:44:01
atack2010
and very poorly.
00:44:02
Brett
But it's been, I don't know, it's just been cool to follow, because i you and I started in the general ballpark around the same time, and to just kind of follow the the progress of the program as it's developed and in response to need.
00:44:13
Brett
And i'll I'll just give a shout out in general to the the um the former executive director of the of the Food Connection, Lillian Brizlin, who
00:44:23
Bryan
ah Yeah Yeah Well we
00:44:24
Brett
Like the reason I think the reason you all got into food safety in large part in the first part in the first place was because it was a need. It wasn't because anybody was like super jazzed about food safety. It was like, in order to sell these institutional markets, we're going to need this kind of support. And that's, you know, what do people need? How can we respond to it? And I think that that ethos that you've carried through has just been really cool. This wasn't supposed to be a Brian love sesh, but I can't help myself.
00:44:49
Alexis
It should be though, it should be a Brian love sash. Like I when I was in the county and I had growers who were just like, we feel confident about spending the money to do it and, or we feel confident knowing that this is not the right place for us.
00:45:02
Alexis
And so like, and that was in big part, thanks to like Brian and his team. And so, um, you know, you save people a lot of money, but you know, also a lot of just like stress of, you know, the audit, like they felt confident and obviously it shows that you're good at what you do if you've had a hundred percent success rate.
00:45:19
Alexis
So cheers.
00:45:20
Bryan
Yeah, we
00:45:22
Alexis
and
00:45:22
Bryan
thanks so um and it is actually a team now we've grown um and Yeah, Lily realized long, you know at the very beginning that oh man, we got to have somebody do this and We um You know, we've grown since she's left ah You know, we've we've had Ashton Potter take over and And she has brought on some value chain coordinators ah that work for Eastern, Central, and Western Kentucky. And this is a plug for them too. If you don't know they exist, they do. And um they they have created a great network for connecting people to me as well.
00:46:10
Bryan
They help in not just the produce space. They're also animal protein value-added products, things like that. So they're there trying to make the connections with buyers. And then also on our team directly, the Cultivate Kentucky program that that does this gap audit assistance, we've hired Courtney Bartlett as well. And so she's helped.
00:46:28
Bryan
Um, really she's added value. It hasn't been taking work off of my plate so much as it's been, we're able to do more work. And, uh, you know, hopefully in the off season here, we're able to produce more resources, um, that are useful, not just, you know, pumping out publications for the sake of pumping out publications, but actually useful stuff that, you know, people might actually take a look at.
00:46:53
Brett
How dare you? How dare you approach it that way?
00:46:56
Bryan
That is not a reference.
00:46:57
Alexis
Just pump them
00:46:58
Brett
Fool, that's not what we do here.
00:47:01
Alexis
out. Who cares what they say?
00:47:02
Brett
oh
00:47:02
atack2010
like him out
00:47:05
Alexis
No, I care because now I'm in charge of getting them published and um, so yeah, you just hold off on those as long as you want to.
00:47:07
Bryan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:09
Brett
yeah
00:47:15
Bryan
Yeah, Alexis is moving one through force right now.
00:47:18
Alexis
Well, she's a dabbling, but so Brian, if anybody needs to get ahold of you, how do you recommend you?
00:47:21
Bryan
Yeah.
00:47:25
Alexis
Should they go to their county office first? Should they look you up online? Kind of what's the, if they're going, hmm, this sounds like something I should be doing, what would you recommend?
00:47:29
atack2010
It's a freaking male.
00:47:30
Bryan
Yeah.
00:47:34
Bryan
Uh, I'd email me, um, that's the easiest way to get ahold of me. Of course, there are farms out there that can't use use email. So, um, you know, I have worked with a number of plain community farmers, Amish and Mennonite farmer.
00:47:47
Bryan
So, um, oftentimes I get directed to them through county, either a county agent or, um, about like a value chain coordinator.
00:47:54
Alexis
option or something.
00:47:56
Bryan
Um, but yeah, my email is definitely the the easiest way to get ahold of me. And we, you know, one of the things that's been great since Courtney came on is she's, she's really helped us. She's got a master's in library science.
00:48:07
Bryan
So she's really helped us get organized and, uh, onboard people in a much more formal way.
00:48:09
Alexis
Yeah.
00:48:13
Bryan
Um, so.
00:48:14
Brett
Does she make you whisper?
00:48:17
atack2010
Quiet.
00:48:19
Bryan
Yeah, right.
00:48:22
Brett
This is the library.
00:48:22
atack2010
And Brian, again, if people just want to use a keyword search to find you, ah the name of your umbrella group. You said you guys have grown, but is squat again if you don't care to throw that out again.
00:48:30
Bryan
yes So if you search Cultivate Kentucky a food connection. So the food connection is the department and Cultivate Kentucky is our program.
00:48:41
Bryan
It should bring you to the food connection page that has my contact info on it.
00:48:43
atack2010
Perfect.
00:48:47
atack2010
Great, thank you.
00:48:48
Alexis
It's a pretty cool name, Cultivate Kentucky. It's pretty clever, clever play on words there.
00:48:48
Bryan
Yeah.
00:48:51
atack2010
Love it, love it.
00:48:54
Bryan
It was before I can't, you know, I can't take any credit for that. They came up with that before I,
00:48:58
Alexis
I mean, are they still here? Just take credit for it.
00:49:00
Bryan
Yeah, I don't really not like ah quite a few of them or it was what bluegrass value chain coordinator and bluegrass farm to table yeah,
00:49:08
Brett
Yeah, bluegrass from the table.
00:49:13
Brett
Louisville from the table.
00:49:16
Bryan
bluegrass farm.
00:49:16
Brett
both of which Both of which don't exist anymore, right?
00:49:17
Bryan
Yep.
00:49:19
Alexis
yeah i was like
00:49:19
Bryan
Right. Bluegrass farm to table became our executive director.
00:49:20
Alexis
don't
00:49:23
Bryan
So yeah.
00:49:24
Brett
So boom, Brian and then his Cultivate Kentucky, you heard it here first from his
00:49:29
Alexis
He said it, not us.
00:49:29
atack2010
Brett said it must be true.
00:49:33
Alexis
Awesome. Well, Brian, we appreciate you being on with us today and giving our listeners kind of a heads up of how you're helping Kentucky farmers keep them safe and that they can feel good about buying local products because we are making sure that they are not they are washing their hands properly and they are keeping puddles from outside of their they sheds.
00:49:54
Bryan
Yeah.
00:49:55
Alexis
so ah We appreciate all the hard work that you do.
00:49:59
Alexis
Anybody else? Any lasting questions? Awesome. Well, that's all we have for you folks today. Feel free to reach out. Our email is in the show notes. If you have any questions or thoughts or you can't find Brian for some reason, ah Feel free to reach out to us. You can also follow us on Instagram at Hort Culture Podcast. You can send us information on there. And we just kind of remind you, we've got episodes. ah If you hit follow on this podcast, then you'll automatically get those episodes when they're available and you can leave a
00:50:31
Alexis
wonderful thing in saying Brian is the best and ah no one else can sort can help you like he can. And you can put that in the review and we will pass along that information as you give us five stars. And we will know those five stars were really for Brian and we appreciate him too. So thanks for being here with us. And we hope that as we grow this podcast, you'll grow with us and that you'll join us next time. See ya.