Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
#187 - Kitty Johnson
319 Plays3 months ago
Contemporary fiction writer, Kitty Johnson is on the podcast discussing the ups and downs of her long journey to publication, her latest novel 'Prickly Company' and volunteering to help local hedgehogs.
💖 Join the Patreon 🙏
Support the show and get access to the extended cuts early and ad-free!
📚 The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes 🥳
Jamie, Melissa and Noami talk about all things writing, tropes and publishing!
✍️ WriteMentor 🧑🏫
Get a whole month with WriteMentor's Hub for free using the coupon code 'Write&Wrong'.
🎙️ Zencastr 🎬
Click on this referral link to get 30% off your first three months with Zencastr.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Kitty Johnson
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble. Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am delighted to be joined by author of emotional women's fiction and part-time artist, Kitty Johnson. Hello. Hello. Lovely to be here.
00:00:29
Speaker
Great to be chatting with you. Let's jump right in. Let's talk
Themes and Inspirations in 'Prickly Company'
00:00:33
Speaker
about the new book Prickly Company, which is out right now. Tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:40
Speaker
Yes, thank you. Well, Prickly Company is the story of Frances Matthews, a widow who is a wildlife enthusiast and decides she wants to do something to make life easier for local hedgehogs. So the action takes place in a small, close,
00:01:02
Speaker
And ah there are five houses. So she wants to get her neighbors on board. And some of them are enthusiastic, others less so. So really, it's the story of saving hedgehogs and how that goes. But also, it's what mainly really it's about the drama, um the events that happen between the neighbors secrets that come out.
00:01:27
Speaker
And it's about the individual neighbour's lives, because they're all dealing with different issues. Yes. And ah similarly to your to to the first novel, Five Winters, there's a lot that the lot of the themes around like friendship, family, parenthood, that kind of thing, kind of interweaving in this small neighbourhood around the the focal point of the hedgehogs.
00:01:53
Speaker
That's right. Yes. One of the there's a couple who have recently adopted a young son, and a second child. And um that isn't immediately going well. There's a journalist who's been wounded in action and is now in a wheelchair. So lots of
Real-Life Influence on Fiction Writing
00:02:13
Speaker
different dramas and emotional content.
00:02:16
Speaker
yeah Yeah, a varied cast of characters to kind of interact with each other and see how they come together. And your previous novel and this novel, both being very well reviewed, especially like in large part to the way that you have portrayed those kinds of themes that the the parenting, the friendships love in a kind of realistic and emotionally compelling way. Is that kind of like a difficult thing to to translate that lived experience into a fictional setting?
00:02:44
Speaker
um Well, it can be. You sort of have to open a vein. um i I do draw on my own experience. doesn't That doesn't necessarily mean that I've experienced everything I write about. No, of course. A bit like a method, like an actor. you I imagine when they get a script, they search back into their lives and think, when have I felt that? And translate that into the way they active role. I think it's similar really. Yeah, there's a certain level of vulnerability to it, which I guess could be scary.
00:03:22
Speaker
um well I don't know. I think just get used to it. I suppose it is at first, but I think it's good for good for you personally, really. get really It's quite cheap therapy, isn't it? Get rid of all these things that have been brewing, simmering inside you onto the paper. give Give them all to your characters.
00:03:43
Speaker
I mean, that's definitely not the first time I've heard that. Oh, I'm sure it's not. But yeah, it's it's definitely, a you know, a healthy way of sort of confronting things that you might not be acknowledging in yourself that you see kind of bleeding out onto the page. Yes, I think it can be, definitely, yeah. We we we kind of went straight onto the heart-hitting themes and the sort of ah emotional core of this, but it is um on the surface largely about hedgehogs. And am I right in thinking that this aligns ah a lot with your real life as you are actively involved with hedgehogs? That's right, I am. Yes, I'm a volunteer driver for um a hedgehog support charity called Hodmadods.
00:04:31
Speaker
they run a helpline and um when calls come in about injured or sick hedgehogs, if the person who the caller hasn't got transport, then I go out and collect the hedgehog and take it somewhere where it can get treatment or help. oh wow And um yeah, hedgehogs is a big theme, hence the title Prickly Company in the novel.
00:04:56
Speaker
And that all came about from a talk at my local WI, Swallowtail WI, the charity that I've now volunteered for came to give a talk there. And there was a lot of enthusiasm in the group, so a couple of women became hedgehog fosterrs.
00:05:16
Speaker
And through that I learnt about um hedgehog highways, which are ways to make life easier for hedgehogs, like leaving holes at the bottom of the fences, um wild areas in the garden, leaving out food and water, that kind of thing.
00:05:31
Speaker
And I started to think, well, a community doing this together would just be a brilliant theme for a book. Then I started to think about what goes on behind closed doors and things that you might not know about your neighbors. And it all seemed to gel together.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's that's a great thought. It is perfect for it. Now you think about it because it's it's like a sort of an extra pressure to enforce on people and whether they accept that or not. And then obviously you've got all of the other underlying tensions, the individual personalities and things. Yes, that's right. And I suppose hedgehog holes, ah hedgehogs moving around
Writing Career and Identity Shift
00:06:12
Speaker
the neighborhood a bit like the community developing and getting to know each other as well. Yeah. I mean, the more you talk about it, the more, the more kind of like a everything falls into place that the puzzle makes perfect sense. Well, I was very happy when I thought of the two things yeah because so I have been, I've been a creative writing teacher for quite a while. So I'm used to working with groups and I've always been fascinated by the way that
00:06:40
Speaker
people who don't know each other or don't know each other well. Sort of when they meet each other, you don't really know what's going to happen, but then they bond and different personalities come to the fore, there's toing and froing. I just, I love the way that groups gel interest in that. Yeah. Yeah. So how long had you, had you been a creative writing teacher for?
00:07:08
Speaker
um Oh, probably about seven years, but I would talk part time or different kinds of things before that. So quite a lot of different group work. Right, right, right. right And this is this is your second novel as Kitty Johnson, but you've also published under mark Margaret K. Johnson. What sort of writing was that?
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, Margaret is my actual name. Kitty is my pen name. it's It's the name that I would have given my son had he been a girl. That's just why I chose it. As Margaret Johnson, I started off by writing Romance, which was published by Women's Weekly, and places like that. And then I met someone who was writing readers for Cambridge University Press for people learning to speak English.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I thought, wow, that sounds like something that would be good to get into. So I got in contact with Cambridge University Press and asked if I could send them a sample chapter. And they liked it. So I went on to have a lot of those published.
00:08:20
Speaker
And they were good fun to write because you would be given a word list and a grammar and grammar rules and you had to stick to them according to the level of book you were writing. So if it was a starter level, for example, you had, I don't know, only about 200 words you could use.
00:08:41
Speaker
So you really had to let the the words dictate the story. It's a bit like doing a puzzle. yeah If they were um higher level books, you you had to kind of deliberately use a lot of longer words. That was fun.
00:08:58
Speaker
Oh, I see. I'm not entirely familiar with what ah a reader is. So is it is it essentially like a very simple story with the idea of fitting in specific vocabulary that people learning will have yeah learned? Well, these were original fiction right um and they also included sort of learning activities. Yes, the idea is they're page turners, so that people learn English through reading what is hopefully a gripping book, and they're motivated to read it because they want to know what happens instead of boring text. It's the idea.
00:09:42
Speaker
Oh, okay. That's interesting. ah but Yeah. And you published a lot of those um before you kind of got back into doing more kind of free writing as, did did you did you publish anything else?
00:09:56
Speaker
Yes, um I had a go at self-publishing. So okay I decided I wanted to take the step and write what I really, really wanted to write. So I had to go, well, ah I tried to get an agent and for years and years and years, and that didn't work. So I tried self-publishing, which was great, but buts it's great for some people, but not for me. It's just too many different skills involved.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. it So I knew that i I needed to try again to get an agent so that I could move forward. Okay. Yeah. I had recently had a self-published author on and she was saying how to make it work, you do really need to have and maintain like ah knowledge of the industry and marketing publicity and like so many things outside of just the writing itself. You do. Yes. and it It just wasn't for me.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah. but Yeah, no, I understand. Brilliant. Some people do it so well. Yeah, they really do. So I'm assuming the reason that you went with a pen name was because obviously a lot, but the majority of the stuff you published under your name had was this kind of reader ah fiction Yes. um Well, it was actually Lake Union, my publishers, who asked if I would mind having a pen name. And I didn't mind after I thought about it because I'm sure, you know, just from my description, it sounds like my publishing history is complicated, which it was. So it's quite nice to have almost like a new start with a new especially as I was writing what I absolutely wanted to write now.
00:11:47
Speaker
yeah So yeah, it was great. Which is was five winters, I assume. Yes, that's right. That's the first one they've taken. And after
Johnson's Writing Process and Style
00:11:57
Speaker
that, I had a contract for two more, two more the first of which is Prickly Company. And the second one from that contract is coming out next year and that is called Closest Kept. Okay. I assume it's not going to feature hedgehogs as prominently.
00:12:17
Speaker
No, it doesn't. she touch um I'd love to hear a bit about your writing process. um So let's start with the the the fun one. Are you someone that does a lot of planning before a novel or do you just jump in and and see where it takes you?
00:12:38
Speaker
I'm somewhere between the two. So I need to know the beginning, I need to know the end. i And I have some touchstones or stepping stones that I'm aware of in between. I need to have a very strong idea of my character so that they have started to kind of speak to me inside my head.
00:13:02
Speaker
um And that was certainly the case with Five Winters. i The character was so strong and I just wrote the first two pages and sent it to my agent. And um those two pages pages didn't change hardly hardly at all when it was published. ah So I need to know that much. But after I've written about 20,000 words, I do a bit more planning and brainstorming.
00:13:28
Speaker
Okay. Right. So you kind of, you kind of find your way for the first sort of quarter or third of the novel, and then you kind of just let it go. Yeah. Well, after, as I say, about 20,000 words, I firm up a bit more. I'm not the opposite. Then you tighten it. Then you lock it down and you tighten everything up and you're like, right, let's see where this is going. Having said that, things still evolve.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, of course. Naturally. Even once you've finished, you know, you'll have finished draft one. That's going to evolve when you bounce it around with the editor or your agent or whoever. Absolutely, yes. Closest kept to the ending, for example. Changed quite a lot. Okay. Well, there you go. um And then as as part of your process, obviously with we covered it with with Prickly company, you had got involved with the sort of hedgehog community aspect of things.
00:14:31
Speaker
So you knew a lot about, like you say, Hedgehog Highways and things like that. Do you do a lot of research into your kind of novels during the planning process before you before you kind of get into the writing?
00:14:45
Speaker
Uh, yes. so ah Well, if, if it's needed, yeah, we'll do research beforehand. Sometimes if I get to somewhere, particularly with the first draft where I need to research it more, I might just put a big star and scroll research because I don't want to stop my flow. Yeah. Um, I have been known to do things, um, myself to experience them. Okay.
00:15:14
Speaker
like for example um performing stand-up comedy because I wanted to include it in a book. oh wow I said but ah went on a course in London for a weekend and then three weeks later went back to perform on stage in Greenwich for three minutes. Okay, that must have been difficult.
00:15:38
Speaker
Yeah, difficult but extremely, you feel just such a rush afterwards. It's just amazing when people laugh. But it also, um apart from the personal, things you get out of something like that just obviously makes your writing much more authentic.
00:15:59
Speaker
So I think in that case, um I actually chose that as something I wouldn't dream of doing really, but would absolutely love to achieve. yeah So the writing was almost a reason to do it. did you I assume you wrote the jokes for the three minutes that you were performing. Yes, yes, as a result of the course.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think you took some learning from that into like your future writing and like it has helped you kind of bring out some more humour in your writing? um I imagine it must have done, yes. um ah thick ah think there is I like to like make people laugh and cry in my writing. So I think there is um always an element of humour there. And some people see more than others. I suppose it depends on someone's sense of humour really. but Yeah, I do, definitely. I mean, those are the kind of books I like to to read myself, things that make me laugh and cry. You're going to ask me, for example, now my mind will go completely blank. No, that's fine. I feel like ah those books might be different for everyone in the same way that you say it depends on your sense of humor. I think equally for for like whether you cry or not and stuff, there's some things that most people cry at, but like a lot of the time
00:17:20
Speaker
one person will cry at one thing when another person will cry at another thing. So I think there's so many variables with yeah the specific books that make you laugh and cry. Yeah. I think you're right. But yeah, it's it's such a delight to read something like that because it's the juxtaposition between those two, you know, I'm laughing, I'm happy, I'm crying, I'm sad. That juxtaposition really, you really know, I presume as an author, that you've succeeded if people tell you, I laughed and I cried.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yeah. And ah and those sorts of things happen in real life, don't they? Yeah. of you can You can see humour in really dark times. And you know I definitely have used those real moments in my fiction. Yeah. I mean, it's,
Creative Environments and Routines
00:18:07
Speaker
humour's often like a coping mechanism, isn't it, for for grief and and other human strife.
00:18:14
Speaker
Yeah. um i but ah My mother's funeral, for example, I mean ah i still my miss my mother six years ago that she died. I miss her hugely still. But um at her funeral, one of the um men carrying the funeral was the coffin was much shorter than everyone else. And so the coffin was really precarious.
00:18:42
Speaker
ein you know It's not funny at all, but it does as well. yeah you know Fortunately, it wasn't dropped because that would not have been funny. I'd love to talk a bit back onto your process and I'm wondering what your sort of, do you have like a specific a space or like a setup that you write in?
00:19:05
Speaker
I have my office, ah which is where my PC is, um but my my method doesn't seem to just be one method. It just seems to depend on. I don't know what the book I wrote, what sort of writing I'm doing. So I'll give you a few things that I do. um I like to often like to start very early in the morning. So I'll be sitting up in bed five thirty with a big cup of coffee and just look at my phone for a while and then start writing in my notebook. And then I'll type that up later on and then I can probably carry on with it after, you know, after I started typing, do some more original writing.
00:19:54
Speaker
I have a cat nap in the afternoons always and then I can do some more writing. Usually then that's straight on the computer. But having said all that, I went through a phase earlier this year where I left the house at about quarter to eight to go to my local library because you can get in there early before it opens to the public with open access. And I wrote there and then came home and typed that up. And that seemed to really work well. But as when my son was young, I've been known to write in your play areas, cafe, so wherever he was. So it doesn't seem to be one fixed way really. It's just whatever is working at the time.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah, but it does sound like you once you do like start a new thing, you do sort of make it a routine. And it sounds like you're quite regular and in terms of repeating the the same things, even if they are changing.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yes, I am, um but I'm not harsher myself. So if something is off, maybe I don't feel 100% or there's a noise outside or whatever, I just keep myself the day off, go for a walk, whatever, because yeah thinking is just such a huge part of writing.
00:21:19
Speaker
just like giving yourself time for all the little puzzle pieces to click together. So I never feel guilty about that. But yeah, I am a pretty regular writer and committed and yeah get on with it really.
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think Terry Pratchett had a very similar sentiment on writing, where he said he he only wrote a certain amount of hours or certain amount of words per day. And he spent the rest of the time, like playing so that his brain could be thinking about all of the other things he was going to write next time he sat down to write.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's not always playing. Sometimes it can be, I don't know, something mundane like cleaning. I don't do that very often. I must um freely admit not as often as I should. But sometimes here in the middle of something very mundane and the ideas come, you just have to allow space for it to happen, I think.
00:22:17
Speaker
Yes, that's it. Allowing space, that's the perfect way of putting it. Yeah. um And that brings us to the point in the episode where we will venture over to our desert island and I will ask Kitty, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be?
00:22:40
Speaker
Well, I had to think
Desert Island Book Choice
00:22:41
Speaker
about this quite hard because I knew the question was coming. And I did consider Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, which is a fantastic book about creativity. yeah But then I thought, no, i I think I need fiction. So I've gone for a Kate Morton book. And if you're familiar with Kate Morton, you know they're very big. They're long. They're hefty tomes.
00:23:07
Speaker
yeah So again, my money's worth. I've gone for the forgotten garden. okay And I went for that because there are three timelines at 1913, 1975 2005. And it starts in 1913 a little girl sitting on a suitcase in Australia on a deserted key.
00:23:33
Speaker
And it's a mystery about who she is because she doesn't know where she's come from. um I love books about secrets and mysteries being solved, emotional books. Well, I would do because that's what I write. And some I like the investigation.
00:23:53
Speaker
But I just think having a book like that would keep my own imagination going and keep my storytelling side of my brain going on this desert island. So that's why I chose it.
00:24:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean,
Conclusion and Social Media
00:24:10
Speaker
it's, you need to pick something that's unique to you and that will keep you kind of going at that time. I think that's a great choice. Thank you. And I believe big magic has been picked before. So in this hypothetical, if there is a sort of small library there of all the previous guests that have been on, you'll be able to find big magic. That's comforting and reassuring. Thank you. Yeah. Amazing. ah I've Got some questions about um being a yeah UK author and having a literary agent abroad and some of the lessons that you've learned about writing through the years, but that will all be in the extended episode exclusive to my incredible Patreon subscribers.
00:24:52
Speaker
um Yeah, probably probably stay back on on earth where it's safer. yeah Amazing. um would a What a would a fun way to round off the interview. ah Well, thank you so much um Kitty for coming on the podcast and chatting with me and telling me and everyone listening all about your your writing and prickly company and and kind of your experiences with with publishing. It's been really, really cool chatting with you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks ever so much. Thanks for having me on.
00:25:22
Speaker
And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Kitty is doing, you can follow her on Twitter at KittyJohnsonBKS, or on Instagram and Facebook at KittyJohnsonBooks, or you can head over to the website KittyJohnsonBooks.com.
00:25:37
Speaker
To support the podcast, like, follow and subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and follow along on socials. Join the Patreon to get extended episodes ad-free in a week early and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again to Kitty and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.