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Theology Debate: Part 1 - FF S2 E5
17 Plays4 days ago
Does God decide or do men decide? Did Jesus die for all or only the elect? We decide to find out how strong our friendship is when we debate the important issue of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Two different ways to examine Scripture, but they can't both be right. (Or can they?) Listen as we bring some passion to a friendly debate.
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Transcript
Introduction to Fatherhood Friday Series
00:00:13
Speaker
Well, hello, welcome to Fatherhood Friday. You made it to Friday. This is brought to you today by the Preacher Dad podcast. And um my name is Jared and I'm the
Calvinism vs Arminianism Series Introduction
00:00:22
Speaker
Preacher Dad. And we're glad to have you here today for a very special series that we're starting today on Calvinism versus Arminianism.
00:00:30
Speaker
And if you know anything, you know that that debate has been had for a very, very long time. And we are excited to share with you some things to think about and some scriptures to consider.
00:00:42
Speaker
How do we interpret them? We actually, on this podcast, are divided. Half of us believe one thing. The other half believes the other. and we are excited to share that with you
Sponsorship by Cornerstone Fellowship
00:00:54
Speaker
today. But as always, this podcast is brought to you by Cornerstone Fellowship. Cornerstone Fellowship is a small little country church in the middle of nowhere, Georgia, just a little bit north of Tombsboro. You can come and visit us there, and we would love to love you and share the love of Christ with you. You can find out more about us at cornerstonefellowship.com.
00:01:12
Speaker
dash g a dot o r g Cornerstone fellowship dash ga dot o r g. We would love to love you. Please come and check us out. And now let's enjoy Fatherhood Friday.
Setting the Stage for Theological Debate
00:01:29
Speaker
right, and welcome to Fatherhood Friday, brought to you by the Preacher Dad podcast. Some of you may not recognize me on account that I have been participating in this podcast up to this point.
00:01:41
Speaker
on a phone that was just barely out of the garbage. So the screen is coming in a little clear. You can see and recognize me. That's fantastic. But I'm Tony and no, I have not replaced Jared. Don't worry, he'll be back in the seat to take care of you all here a better way here before too
Debate on Predestination and Free Will
00:01:57
Speaker
long. But we have something special tonight here for you. We have a a very interesting topic of discussion. It's one that's been settled for hundreds and hundreds of years.
00:02:06
Speaker
We are debating the positions between the predestination Calvinistic type of theology of determinism or of the not that view.
00:02:19
Speaker
that There might be some other ways that we need to understand the mechanisms of salvation. So we wanted to have a really soft debate tonight about this on something so easy because we know that inside of Christian circles, for whatever reason, we split up with each other for the dumbest things all the time.
00:02:38
Speaker
This is not a dumb thing. This is an incredibly serious theological question. And yet we don't all agree, but we do all love one another and we do all respect each other's position in Christ.
00:02:49
Speaker
And so as we go into this tonight, the goal is not necessarily that one wins against the other, but that we sharpen one another in the way that we think through this process. There are weaknesses in both sides. There are strengths in both sides.
00:03:01
Speaker
Which one is correct? Who knows? But my particular position is very agnostic on both sides. I have put together a series of questions that I have found extremely difficult for myself to answer regarding both of these positions.
00:03:16
Speaker
And so I'm going to try to pose those to both of our sides tonight to give it their best shot so they can see exactly what they might think of these questions and what they may be able to reason through with us together tonight.
Calvinist Perspective on God's Sovereignty
00:03:28
Speaker
And of course, we're also going to rip each other apart for things that we think are logical inconsistencies with the way that we come to believe things. So come along for the ride have a lot of fun. Let me introduce first our teams. So Matt Stewart and the illustrious Mark. Welcome back, sir.
00:03:47
Speaker
How would you guys describe your position? Yeah, so I'm going to take this and then i'm gonna let Mark handle everything else. um So ah but for real, though, he's my pastor and I and I would rather him um speak speak at all in a much clearer and effective way than I would. so But I will start out with this little opening statement.
00:04:10
Speaker
So Tony did mention that there's ah there's a Calvinist side of this debate, and this would be Mark and i And so I wanted to speak up speak on that just for the next couple of minutes.
00:04:23
Speaker
Calvinism is simply a term or a name that summarizes what we believe the Bible teaches about salvation. At its core, it's about God's sovereignty and election or predestination.
00:04:37
Speaker
No one can choose to be saved unless the Father draws and regenerates him. At that point, man happily receives the gift of salvation. And if God gives it, he will not take it away.
00:04:48
Speaker
Man is unable to freely choose due to his sinful and dead nature. Okay, so things that calvin Calvinism does not teach. It does not teach that God is unloving or not compassionate because he sends people to hell.
00:05:02
Speaker
nor does it deny that we make real choices in everyday life. What we're saying is this, every person is born in sin, so enslaved to sin, hating God and running full speed straight toward judgment and will never repent unless God by his grace intervenes.
00:05:21
Speaker
Calvinism is not about sitting back and doing nothing because God's in control. And yes, God is in control. is sovereign. but He's sovereign out over both the ends and the means.
00:05:35
Speaker
We try to be obedient and He accomplishes His purposes. So yes, we do believe and share in the gospel, because know that's something that some people think that we don't believe in, and we do believe in sharing the gospel.
00:05:47
Speaker
um We're also saying that God's ways are higher than ours. Our limited minds cannot fully comprehend the depth of His love, wrath, justice, compassion, patience, and so on.
00:05:59
Speaker
But we do know this, He does whatever he pleases for his namesake so that his glory will be proclaimed throughout the earth. Ultimately, God does not leave his glory in the hands of man.
00:06:13
Speaker
Got a few verses to speak on that. Psalm 115.3 says, Our God is in the heavens. He does all that he pleases. So it may not always make sense to us or not seem fair, but it really doesn't matter what we think.
00:06:28
Speaker
He is God. We aren't. And he does what he pleases. Psalm 106.8 says, yet he saved them for his namesake that he might make known his mighty power.
00:06:41
Speaker
So God does not leave his you know reputation or glory up to us. Psalm 46.10, be still and know that I am God. We know that part of the verse, but we don't pay attention to the second part very much. But be still know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth.
00:07:01
Speaker
So how will God be exalted? Because he will ensure that it happens. it's It's up to him. It's not up to us. And then lastly, believing in the doctrines of grace or Calvinism, whatever, it simply means this. We give God all the glory and salvation and good works and suffering and joy and life and death and everything. It's all by him, through him, and for him, for his glory alone.
00:07:27
Speaker
That's what got. Amen. Thank you. Mark, did you wish to clarify any of that? no What now? is um I'm happy with it.
00:07:41
Speaker
okay ah All
Arminian Perspective on Free Will
00:07:44
Speaker
righty. And then representing a slightly different view, we have Team Jared and Nate Eisner. Welcome back, brother. Yeah.
00:07:52
Speaker
i'm glad I'm glad it's not a two-on-one beat-up Jared session tonight. So this is great. I want you guys to know that I really believe that I'm predestined to win this debate this evening. I think from the foundations of the world, God determined.
00:08:07
Speaker
No, I am kidding. I love these guys. And this is not about winning any debates. right And for me, this is about brothers in Christ loving each other and sharpening each other and maybe just giving us something to think about.
00:08:22
Speaker
um You know, I certainly appreciate so much of what my brother Matt just said, and I love Matt as much as I love any other man in the world. But I can say that that he and i don't agree about every point of doctrine. And the point that i think is really important, one of the biggest significant aspects where I find myself disagreeing with a lot of Calvinist doctrines,
00:08:51
Speaker
is the idea of free will or the ability to choose things or to be able to decide things. And I believe that it is biblical that the Bible does teach us that we do have free will. I can't really imagine a passage like in Deuteronomy when the Lord says to his people, I lay before you death and life, choose life.
00:09:16
Speaker
I don't know why he would say that if we don't have the ability to make a choice. The problem, I think that, um and I appreciate Matt, you saying the things that Calvinism does not teach, because I found a lot of my friends that sit on the other side of the aisle here believe things about Arminianist doctrine, which is more the anti-Calvinist doctrine, although I don't really like labels very well.
00:09:44
Speaker
People, you say I'm an Arminian and they immediately think they know what you're what you believe, but... um think Things that i have they have believed, i think that is not true. Arminianists do not believe that salvation is in any way by works.
00:10:01
Speaker
And it is not something that we do or accomplish. Salvation is done by God. It is accomplished by God. We just simply believe that we have the ability to either reject or receive the grace bestowed to us by God in faith.
00:10:20
Speaker
We can either receive that gift or reject it by our own free will and choice. And I believe that is borne out in the scriptures and you guys will have to forgive me and hopefully the audience will forgive me too. I came into this podcast on two wheels. i have been going a mile a minute, had a death of a family member, uh, today. And I have, I do not feel super prepared. for this discussion, but I have been doing some research and some work, but I don't have all these fancy scripture verses to give you in this moment. Other than to tell you, I certainly believe that Ephesians 2 verse 8 says, we are saved by grace through faith.
00:10:59
Speaker
It is not of works, lest any man should boast. And so in no way would I believe that ah we earn our salvation or have anything to do with earning our salvation, but it is the work of God. I just believe that God gives us the freedom to choose yes or no. Because if we do not have the freedom to choose yes or no,
00:11:21
Speaker
then I believe that our love for him, it doesn't mean anything because how can I love God if I don't have the ability to choose not to love God?
00:11:31
Speaker
And so I just believe that that is ah that is the scriptural position borne out by the word of God. But we'll see if I'm right. I mean, like I'm willing to be convinced of sure another idea. Nate, what you got? Two or three minutes. In heaven. Yeah, what Jared said.
00:11:51
Speaker
No, um jared's ah Jared's talking about being unprepared somehow. I think I'm actually less prepared tonight than Jared has been. But anyways, um yeah, so I likewise don't have a ton prepared. We're in the middle of doing a lot of logistical things in our family, moving, um and it's all a bunch of excuses. But anyways, ah what I will get to as far as my opening statement,
00:12:20
Speaker
I want to clarify a couple things. One, um i have said this before on this podcast. I am in no way, shape, or form a pastor, a theologian at all. I um measure carpet for a living. So in the margin of my time, I do study God's Word. I try to lead my family. I am involved in our church's youth group, but I lean heavily on prewritten materials and and such. so I don't do a lot of lesson myself as far as planning little girls. here hey
00:12:54
Speaker
Now that's Fatherhood Friday right there. That's right. I love it. That's right. So um all that to say, um i think the format for tonight, at least my understanding, is less of a debate and more. Tony has questions. And so as friends, we're going to give Tony our answers. And so that is very much how I'm viewing this tonight. um I did not grow up in a Calvinist ah understanding or you know viewpoint growing up.
00:13:25
Speaker
That's something I came across later in life. I went to a Reformed church for about a year, did not leave because I had an issue with the Reformed doctrine. We just were needed elsewhere in ministry. of We had a friend that was trying to revamp a church and needed some young family, so we went to help them out. So ah still love that church very much, the Reformed church we came from. Great friends. When we were there, that was the first time I really was introduced to the doctrine fully. So I did study it and out for um my time there.
00:13:55
Speaker
And I will say what I saw, I was not fully convinced, but at the same time, I would leave myself in the category of I am open to changing my mind if the text can persuade me.
00:14:09
Speaker
ah But when it comes to the text, what I have probably landed on the most is that There's yet to be a passage of Scripture that I've found that the Calvinists use as proof texts that the Arminians don't also have an explanation for and vice versa. So I think if it were rock-solid clear, I don't think we'd be having this conversation tonight. And while I think you can certainly be confident in what the Word of God teaches, um I think the the core of it is we do need to preach the gospel. Well, first and foremost, we are here to love God and serve him and to know him. And I would affirm, just like Jared said, that you know I believe that salvation is grace alone through faith. um Really, the the question that comes down to, in my opinion, is are we does total depravity actually mean total inability? And that's where I'd probably differ a little bit. And I think that's probably the the cornerstone of the whole debate because the rest of the tulip kind of hangs on that one
00:15:14
Speaker
total inability. Um, and I guess there's, there's other parts of it too. And I know there's differences between three point Calvinist, four point Calvinist five and all that, but, uh, anyways, I'm talking, he's all the way in. That's right.
00:15:27
Speaker
Matt's an 18 pointer. So anyways, um, I'm revealing my cards that I'm yeah, not super prepared, but all have to say is, you know, i've I I've, uh, watched a lot of debates online, listened to a lot of content. Um,
00:15:43
Speaker
I absolutely understand how you can come to a Calvinist understanding, but at the same time, I think you can also explain a lot of the same texts in more of a armenist or provisionist, uh, understanding, which is to be quite honest, my presupposition, cause it's how I was raised.
00:15:59
Speaker
Um, but you know, I've heard things said like, well, I'm a, I'm a Calvinist because Paul held the Calvinist understanding, or I'm a Calvinist because the Bible gave me no choice.
Theological Contradictions and God's Sovereignty
00:16:10
Speaker
In my opinion, that's basically saying you're wrong because I'm right. I don't think those are arguments because if Paul was actually a Calvinist, we wouldn't be having the debate. But anyways, that's that's where I'm at. So I'm not probably – like I said, I'm not going to have a whole lot of ah i'm not going to have a whole lot of smart theological um insight for you tonight.
00:16:31
Speaker
Tony, I'm going to answer your question as your friend. This is what I believe, not not your pastor. Go ask somebody smarter than me. as long as there's personal insults in there as well i'm fine with it it's all good so they're just all to be directed at you tony but that's that's completely acceptable by the way that's fine so uh as far as this goes um i think we're going to start off with team matt and mark and uh just go ahead and get right into it you guys all ready sure thing yep all righty so uh my first question for you guys so can god genuinely desire the salvation of all people if he has from eternally unconditionally elected only some for salvation and either passed over or actively reprobated the rest and where this question comes from is quite a few passages but i'll just give you a couple to set out the framing here first timothy 2 3 3 through 4
00:17:28
Speaker
This is good and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, and desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. And then in Ezekiel 18.23, This is God speaking, by the And in declares the lord god and not rather that he should turn from his way in with and then in second peter three nine The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, as some count as slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
00:18:02
Speaker
How do you reconcile those types of thought processes about how God views the world with the idea that God doesn't mean that? Yeah. um So first off, I think when one of the things that when I was coming into a Calvinistic mindset and, and framework, um, just trying to understand God's sovereignty, I'd been working through it.
00:18:35
Speaker
Um, this was, this was one of the, the, the sticking points for me, I'd say. And one of the things that helped me in my, um,
00:18:47
Speaker
In my understanding, and i and I let me just start off, I guess, by saying a lot of understanding God's sovereignty um is is just it's kind of like how I view the the Trinity where, you know, why do we believe that God is a Trinity? And it's like, well, because I i think the whole Council of Scripture teaches that. And it's kind of like what you all were saying with the with the Armenian perspective. Right. We have to for all of us and for anyone you if you're if you're solely basing your understanding on just some kind of, you know, systematic theology or or whatever, you know, there's, there's help, there's help in shorthand and short names like Calvinism and reformed theology and that kind of thing. But, but having the whole, being able to think in categories and, and, and um take the whole counsel of God is, is necessary and and helpful in ah in answering all of this. and
00:19:49
Speaker
um And for me, one of the questions when I was just thinking through, ah you know, what are the issues that I see if you if you have God having this desire for all people everywhere to be saved is a fracturing of the Trinity in in their motivations.
00:20:10
Speaker
If God is predestined, if God the Father has predestined um the elect to be saved, then you will have Jesus dying. And that number is a select few, um which i I kind of view it that you have to view it that way. um i think when you're looking at whose names are in the book of life and, you know, that's a set number. I don't see names being able be erased out of that, but um but you have God the Father wanting a group that will be the bride that he presents to his son at the end of time, but then you have the son dying for a wider range, you're you're fracturing the motivation of God within the Trinity.
00:21:03
Speaker
um Whereas it's it is, I think, a lot more cohesive of of ah of a thought to have the father foreknowing and predestining and and electing a certain group the son dying for that certain group and then the spirit drawing that certain group and so the motivation is united across our trying god in in all things and you're not having the father saying i want you know 50 and the son saying well i'm going to die for 100.
00:21:37
Speaker
um that's That's just in ah in kind of a, without really dealing with the texts, that's one of the questions or one of the the things that that helped me settle um in in not um in this mindset is is the idea that I feel like that fractures the Trinity in their motivation. um And... Can I ask a follow-up to that?
00:22:07
Speaker
Yeah. So now and I may be misunderstanding the argument here, but which member of the Trinity desires for all to be saved?
00:22:19
Speaker
Because it was in the Old Testament, we're talking about God the Father. We're also talking about Jesus the Son in our New Testament passages here. who Who is the one who is divided, who wants everybody, but is limited by the rest of the Trinity, who only wants a few?
00:22:38
Speaker
It would it would be the son dying for everyone. So the son dies. What you're saying is the son dies for everyone and genuinely loves the world, but the father has selected only a few from the world to be the bride.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's, yes. he's I think, i think what you're saying, Mark, is that, is that, that is, that is not the case. And that's what drives you to,
00:23:06
Speaker
you you don't believe that that is the case and that's what's driving you to the calvinist doctrine yes yeah that's one of that's the problem that you have with okay which would be consistent with the limited atonement right right am i understanding that right yeah hey adventurers ready to level up your outdoor game at goose feet gear they're committed to keeping you crazy warm without weighing you down I've known the founder and owner Ben Smith for nearly two decades and his commitment to quality is outstanding.
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00:24:10
Speaker
Right. So it's not an inconsistency within the doctrine of election. It's the inconsistency within the the limited atonement part of, um, you know, the the desire of God to to save for all people to be saved.
00:24:27
Speaker
um And, you know, so for it and dealing with the text that you put, Tony, like the the second Timothy or the ah the first Timothy two, three through four, you know, i I think and I'm sure that some of the listeners and y'all may be aware of this, but when I see that it says God desires all men to be saved, I think with the word all, you have to look at the word all within the context that it's given, right? Because it in all cannot mean all people from everywhere for all of for all of time, right? When it says that all of Judea came out to see um Jesus or John the Baptist, um you know, it's not it's not literally everyone. um And the same, i think, is important when you look at the word worlds.
00:25:16
Speaker
right? In Romans, it talks about how the gospel went out to the whole world already, right? And like that's that's not talking about every continent on the world. And so you have to take those words and define them within their context. And I think the context for 2 Timothy is um in terms of he's laying out instructions for the whole church, right? I view 1 Timothy as um as laying out Paul's intention for how a church is to be structured.
Prayer and Evangelism in Calvinism
00:25:48
Speaker
And so he says, all right, this is what I want the men to be doing. I want the men to be praying. And I want the be men to be praying for these types of people, um people who are in authority, for kings and for rulers and for um all these different categories of people. um
00:26:03
Speaker
and And so prayer is a major means of uh evangelism essentially because god desires for all kinds of people like the kinds that he lays out in first timothy 2 um to be saved and and then likewise you know he goes on to how the women are to to behave and so i view when i see texts like that that are used often maybe not every time i see the all kinds of people um
00:26:37
Speaker
And i I'll define the word all according to to that context. I think that's a major sticking point between the two sides, really. Yeah. Well, i don't I don't want to keep dominating this, if ah of Jared or Nate, if you guys want to cross-examine as well.
00:26:53
Speaker
But my question for that, like, I've heard that argument, and I think it's actually a pretty legitimate one, that that there is a context to how these words work. are meant to be understood. My only problem with that particular argument in this case is it turns the entire statement into nonsense.
00:27:08
Speaker
If the entire statement is, I wish for the bride of Christ to be filled with the bride of Christ, that is a redundancy that doesn't make any sort of sense or add meaning to the way that this instruction is moving forward in this passage.
00:27:21
Speaker
The only thing to to make this context god you know i'll read it again here this is this is good and a pleasing in the sight of god our savior who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth god desires all the people inside of the church to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth is a nonsense statement that's i i if god desires all the saved people to be saved that adds no knowledge of meaning to what is being conveyed i wouldn't say I'd say it's like God desires all kinds of people. Right. So, I mean, we, there are many people around the world who just believes that there are certain kinds of people who can't be saved.
00:28:01
Speaker
Right. And I'm sure that that is not a new kind of mindset where you have, you know, you have entire so tears within India where you have people who are just, you know, these are the people who are saved. And i mean, even in that time you have Roman emperor being god um And so I don't think that it's, and this is one of the caricatures I think of Calvinism is that, you know, we don't think that God uses means to bring people to him.
00:28:32
Speaker
Right. So one of the means that God uses to bring people to him is evangelism. And in i think in this text, it's prayer, right? The church is to be devoted to the prayer of salvation of people in every social class and tier and in everywhere, right? There is no, the the gospel has gone out to the whole world and to every person, whether you are poor or rich or in authority or slave, you know, whatever it may be.
00:29:05
Speaker
So that's kind of, i I don't view it as like, you know, just pray for the church to be saved. It's it's it's operating, you know, the Bible is operating as if we don't know who is saved.
00:29:17
Speaker
Right. And so we pray and we evangelize to everyone. It's all people. i don't have So, uh, Mark, can i push back just a little bit on you on that one?
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I was looking at the, the further context of the Timothy passage. First Timothy chapter two and verse one says, first of all, then i urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. It says in, uh,
00:29:47
Speaker
In the King James, it says, be made for all men. Verse two says for Kings and for all their own authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life and all Godliness and honesty. Four, verse three, for this is good and acceptable on the inside of God, our savior, who will have all men to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth.
00:30:05
Speaker
And so I think if you connect that to ah verse one, either it's referring that prayers, supplications, intercessions, giving thanks be made for.
00:30:17
Speaker
all people or if you in in order to be consistent with what you're saying, you would also have to say that the exhortation of prayers and supplications, intercessions be made for all types of people.
00:30:34
Speaker
and and And that would be consistent. ah Basically, I don't believe that you're correct. I think that the context in the verse first verse is referring to all people.
00:30:46
Speaker
not just all all people groups. But then when it says in verse four that he will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, I think that it is referring to all people. That's what God wants.
00:31:03
Speaker
Now, I mean, do you do you feel like those, does that,
00:31:09
Speaker
I'm saying my position, but I'm also asking you, can do you feel like that is that kind in context, verse 1, is that referring to all groups of people or or not? Well, um my question is, why is is verse 2 in there then? right If you just wanted to talk about praying for all people and then just jump, you what is the purpose of verse 2?
00:31:33
Speaker
I feel like verse 2 helps define what he's talking about here. right, for all people, for kings, and and then, you know, why doesn't he go on to say for kings and then for, um and list out, you know, every single type of category that there is. um that's Verse two helps define, help me define the word all there, um or it changes it slightly, at least for me, um and how I read that. I'm not gonna be praying for anyone
00:32:09
Speaker
Less, right? I'm still praying for all people in all categories, but it's, um but yeah, I don't know if that helps at all. But that's verse two is is, I have to ask, why is it not just jumping from verse one down to verse four?
00:32:29
Speaker
I think that he's just trying to say, well, I mean, my opinion, I guess, is that I think he's trying to just include, yeah, kings and all that are in authority as well.
00:32:40
Speaker
We're not going to, we're going to pray for our leaders as well as everyone else. We're not leaving those guys out. That's how, that's how I, that's how I'd read that. But.
00:32:52
Speaker
Alrighty. Well, in the interest of time, I think there's a lot of good discussion there, guys. Appreciate the input on that. But I think in the interest of time, unless this is a 73-hour podcast, we need to move on to another question. So um let's swing it on over to Jared and Nate. You guys, I'm going to cue you up here. I've got a question for you guys.
00:33:11
Speaker
If God truly desires all to be saved and provided atonement for all, why are most not saved? Isn't God's will being thwarted by human free will? And how is it possible that God both desires to save all and also created some for destruction?
00:33:27
Speaker
From the passages that I pull this question out from, Isaiah 46, verses 9 through then in Romans 9, verse 17 through verse 23, remember the former things of old for i am god and there is no ah i am god and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done saying my council shall stand and i will accomplish all my purpose and then in romans nine verse seventeen through verse twenty three For the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
00:34:00
Speaker
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
00:34:13
Speaker
But what does molded say to the molder? Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay to make of the of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
00:34:25
Speaker
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand glory?
00:34:44
Speaker
How do you synchronize those thoughts? So, um Nate, i'll i'll take i'll I'll jump into this one um and then you can throw some thoughts out
Interpretation of Romans 9 and Free Will
00:34:55
Speaker
as well.
00:34:55
Speaker
yeah um So i believe that God desires all to be saved, but that doesn't mean all will. And what what God wants does not necessarily mean
00:35:12
Speaker
It's hard to say that what he wants will not be accomplished considering the passage there in Isaiah. But I would like to say that these concepts have been debated by a lot of people way smarter than us.
00:35:23
Speaker
And without resolution, they are complicated. They are challenging. They are difficult. And so these situations are difficult. um But I do believe that... um It is not incompatible like the Isaiah 46 passage. It's not incompatible for God to say, my counsel will be accomplished and I'll do what I want to do.
00:35:45
Speaker
And what he wants to do is give people the ability to choose. Those things are not conflicting with each other. And people can make their decisions, and God still says, see, part of God's counsel, part of his will, is that people would have the ability to choose right or wrong, that he's given them free will. That's part of his decision, part of his counsel that is being accomplished in the world.
00:36:11
Speaker
And then when you go to Romans chapter 9, which is a very complicated and challenging passage. Not really. Oh, yeah. Not for me. i'm sorry, Jared. That's okay. That was funny. Thank you. I needed that.
00:36:26
Speaker
um But in Romans 9, God is talking about hardening Pharaoh's heart, but the Bible never talks about the Lord hardening someone forever against the gospel.
00:36:39
Speaker
It it does doesn't say that he is choosing for them and deciding for them. It does talk about hardening Pharaoh's heart, who was an authority figure and had already hardened his own heart. There's something called judicial hardening, which is basically God hardening someone's heart after they have already begun the process. And it's sort of like to him turning them over to their to their sin. Like they, in Pharaoh's case, he began the hardening process.
00:37:09
Speaker
He hardened his heart because the Bible talks about both. And if you read carefully the passage in Exodus, he says he hardened his heart And then it starts to talk about how God hardened his heart. So he's already deciding against following the Lord's direction. And then God comes along and hardens it even further.
00:37:28
Speaker
And God raised up Pharaoh, knowing that Pharaoh would choose to reject his his call, so to speak. And so I think that the hardening is not that passage in Romans 9, when it says that he has mercy on some and he hardens some. I don't think that that's talking about salvation.
00:37:47
Speaker
I don't think that's speaking about a salvation issue. It's speaking about um the other things that happen in our in our existence and our experiences when God sometimes will have mercy upon some and some will be hardened. If you look at the full context of Romans chapter nine, you'll see that God is talking about how he chooses some and he doesn't choose others.
00:38:12
Speaker
And it seems to at first lean very heavily towards this predestination idea. But um I don't think that's what it's talking about. He says, if you look if you look at the beginning part of chapter 9, and I don't have the verse right in front of me, but he says um that he's in Isaac cell thy shall thy seed be called. So Abraham has more than one child. He has several.
00:38:41
Speaker
But he's choosing that redemption shall come through Isaac. He said, in Isaac shall thy seed be named. The covenant, the promises, things were coming through Isaac. Remember that um Paul is speaking to a Jewish audience as well as a Greek audience when he's writing Romans.
00:39:00
Speaker
So he's trying to explain this idea of God choosing some and not choosing others. He said, I'm choosing to bring salvation through Isaac. And then he are the the the covenant through Isaac. And then Isaac has more than one child.
00:39:15
Speaker
And so he says, I Esau have I or i or what did he say? Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated. And the word hated there doesn't mean the way we think of as English. It's a different type of word that really just means in comparison to the love I have for Jacob, Esau, you know, is is sort of not chosen is basically what it means.
00:39:37
Speaker
And so again, God is choosing to go through one and not another. And so I think that the predestination argument comes down to God has chosen to bring redemption through Christ, but he's not chosen for us whether or not we shall be brought into Christ.
00:39:56
Speaker
When the Bible speaks about predestination, it's not saying that I am being chosen for. It's saying that he has chosen redemption and covenant to come through Jesus Christ, the same way he chose Jacob, the same way he chose Isaac.
00:40:10
Speaker
That is through whom the covenant will come. And if I choose to come into the covenant, that's my still my choice. But the the the passage that you're talking about, about God hardening people's hearts or having mercy on them, I think that that's referring not to a salvation ah discussion. I think it's talking about um other decisions. And also, you know i don't know that hardening is a permanent thing.
00:40:39
Speaker
I think that hardening is a temporary thing. to guide the the sovereignly, the God sovereignly guides the world. And so sometimes he'll harden hearts, especially the hearts of authority figures like he did with pharaoh's in Pharaoh's case. But I don't think that that immediately in the text, I don't believe that that immediately means that God is hardening some to destruction and and he he's not hardening others so that they will receive him.
00:41:06
Speaker
I don't think that that's what that passage is referring to. Can I ask a follow-up on that one? Go ahead. And the chain of events there, like the in the way that you're explaining how God hardened Pharaoh's heart, Pharaoh hardened his heart first.
00:41:23
Speaker
God basically allowed the poison to go on cleanse and it deepened him more. Is that is that correct? The way that I'm presenting that? Yes, that's what I that's my position at this point.
00:41:36
Speaker
The only thing I think the challenge is that this is the very last verse here. chapter 20, I'm sorry, verse 23 there, chapter 9, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.
00:41:51
Speaker
So the overall framing of this entire setup is that these instruments, both for destruction and for mercy, have been picked out beforehand.
00:42:04
Speaker
But there is a there is a preset will that decides who these people are. How would you reconcile with that?
00:42:15
Speaker
Well, I would say that that says that vessels of mercy have been prepared beforehand unto glory. It does not say that he prepared beforehand vessels unto destruction.
00:42:31
Speaker
I think it does. It says that he's willing to endure vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. It doesn't say that he decides for them or he he he prepared them unto destruction, just that they are headed for destruction and he's enduring that and allowing it.
00:42:53
Speaker
Anyway, that's my answer. He might make known... I'm just reading back through the passage again to make sure that I didn' miss anything. that Just the way that it reads naturally to me, and that doesn't necessarily mean it's correct, but the way it reads naturally to me, it seems like that is the same thought, that it's not...
00:43:12
Speaker
It doesn't seem like it's it's it's making that demarcation that there's a different way that God is working with the vessels of destruction than he is the vessels for mercy.
00:43:24
Speaker
then That clause that they prepared beforehand for glory is meant for both. But the vessels of destruction are prepared beforehand for glory, that their destruction is part of the act of God glorifying himself in the way that he allows his wrath to be known as it comes against sin.
00:43:42
Speaker
or against those that stand against his people in the case of Pharaoh. So for to me, reading through there, I'm not sure I can make that delineation that the people that were meant for glory were set from before time, but those that are meant for destruction are just kind of muddled and mixed somewhere and God will pick him as he has the opportunity to.
00:44:04
Speaker
think just to add to that, um in verse 21, it says, or does not the potter have the right over the clay? Right. And so the the vessels that he's talking about are vessels that are made of clay. And so it's in the context of a of a potter who has fashion, who is fashioning clay.
00:44:21
Speaker
Right. that Well, that's that's how I read it. um But. Yeah, that's a good point. You're right. Like I said, this one is hard.
00:44:33
Speaker
And honestly, I've listened to like two sermons on it and, you know, i i find this passage to be challenging to grasp a hold of and understand. ah But I still, you know, it's not enough to convince me all the way over.
00:44:50
Speaker
Let's just say it's hard for me to to reconcile some of these ideas, but I don't see, um well, I just, you know, everybody brings up Pharaoh's hardening heart and one, Pharaoh was an authority figure.
00:45:06
Speaker
And number two, I'm not sure hardening is a permanent thing. And I'm not sure that, that, that scripture is speaking of salvation in that moment. Now the stuff about, you know, how can you, of the lump of clay, you know, how, what right do you have to say to the potter? Um, how he should, uh, why did you make me this way?
00:45:29
Speaker
You know, um I'm not sure I have a real good answer on on those at this moment. But- Can I can i ask ah a follow up real quick? I think you said, do do you think that there is such a thing as a hardening where you cannot turn back from?
God Hardening Hearts and Authority
00:45:51
Speaker
Could it get to that point, I guess? I think i think that it it could based on Hebrews 6. you know because hebrews 6 says that there's oh how to put that it's it says it it says there's a sin that you can commit that essentially hardens your heart to the point that you're there is there's no repentance left like you don't have you're not not even able to repent is the way i read that in hebrews 6.
00:46:20
Speaker
spirit Well, yeah, kind of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But again, i don't think, I know a lot of Christians that are afraid they're going to accidentally commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. i'm like, you can't do it by a mistake.
00:46:32
Speaker
You got to decide to do it. You got to try. You got to work hard on it. But I do believe that it is possible for there to be a hardening if you just continue to just push away God all the time and reject and reject and reject his call to salvation. Yeah, eventually, i don't i don't i don't know if you're coming back from that or not. i don't I just don't know that it is always absolutely permanent. If God just hardens your heart, you're done.
00:46:58
Speaker
No, I think that God had to keep coming back and harden Pharaoh's heart. So it must have gotten softer. And there's a there's time there's other scriptures where Jesus talks about people being, he would teach in parables so that people would not understand, lest they repent, lest they turn and repent of their sins and come to righteousness. So, you know, for a time, at least they were hard. And then God brings them eventually because anyway, I'm i'm rambling on, but that's, yeah, that's a good good question, Mark. And that's my position.
00:47:35
Speaker
thank you Nate, did you have any follow-up thoughts on that one? um So i will agree with Jared in that this is definitely probably one of the more difficult ones to understand if you're going to hold to a more to a non-Calvinist viewpoint. But I'm trying to go back through so just to show our cards a little bit. We were preparing certain verses ahead of time. Jared took some, I took some. So I have not prepared much on Romans 9 tonight. So going but this is one that I've i at least brushed on in the past and
00:48:06
Speaker
just kind of going back through some of my old notes and trying to remember some things that I've heard in the past. Um, I'm not prepared to present an argument for this, but just some thoughts and maybe maybe this will stir up some conversations. Cause to be honest, guys, I'm learning just as much as I'm giving information here. but Um, is it possible that this particular passage in its context is not talking about individual salvation, rather laying a greater foundation for um,
00:48:35
Speaker
um Certain Jews are not saved even though they were chosen, and why now the Gentiles are being included into salvation is Paul not laying out the case in basically the section of Romans that the Jews can't claim to be superior in that now the Gentiles are included. And that's that's what I'm going back through and looking for here. So again.
00:49:03
Speaker
That's more of a question rather than me stating that that's what I think it says, but any thoughts on that? So basically the question is, are we, are we, are we viewing this passage to be too individualistic or is this meant to be more of a, to, to kind of use y'all's terminology that you said earlier, more of a, all types of people?
00:49:23
Speaker
Um, like, is this, is this referring to a broader category of people, not individuals is really the question. i think in this passage. It's very hard for me. It's a hard circle to square on both sides of it.
00:49:38
Speaker
oh But I think. The the best argument. If you're trying to argue away from a potential predestination interpretation here is is in line with kind of where Jared was thinking that it's not this isn't prescribing salvation as much as it is prescribing the purpose of the life you're given.
00:50:00
Speaker
But there's It's not necessarily about some people are meant for hell and some people are meant for heaven. It's more meant that some people's lives will be destroyed, will be ripped up ripped apart, um but any way where God is exacting his judgment and his wrath.
00:50:20
Speaker
And it's consistent with what you see throughout the Old Testament. There were many instances where the children of Israel, not necessarily people that were committers of great sins, but because God was exercising wrath and judgment over his people who died in battle, who died of famine and disease, who died of hardship.
00:50:39
Speaker
And it wasn't because of an exact punishment on their specific sin as much as much as it was God revealing himself to his people and how how they ought to be responding to him.
00:50:53
Speaker
And since that's a very consistent context with the original um audience that roman is written for to me it seems like a consistent thought that this is in part making sense of god's use of people groups and uh nations and um you know all all kinds of different um disbursements of personality their peoples to be able to accomplish his will and it's not for us to decide whether or not we're going to be part
00:51:28
Speaker
of the evangelistic crew or we're going to be part of the crew that's destroyed by God because both are in the purposes of his glory.
00:51:40
Speaker
Like if America felt a vast judgment tomorrow and the entire country was overcome in war and many, many Christians died, they wouldn't be God um expressing less love for his people.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:51:56
Speaker
And that he would be allowing his judgment to finally fall upon a nation that turns back against God. And that God would be built, God's using his part of his body as an example of his judgment.
00:52:12
Speaker
Well, folks, that's all the time we have for today. ah You know, we certainly can't ah settle this topic in one episode. So we hope that you'll come and join us next week for the continuation of this series on Calvinism. I hope we've given a you a few things to think about and to consider. And I hope that if we've earned it, that you'll give us five-star review, that you'll subscribe to this podcast, that you'll like us. on YouTube, we make a comment, some sort of interaction helps that algorithm capture us and gets this message out far and wide. So if you found something worthwhile in this podcast episode or any others, we would sure appreciate your participation in the distribution of these ideas.
00:52:53
Speaker
ah The other thing I'd like to mention to you is that if you'd like to get in touch with us, if you've got a great idea an outstanding debate or you want to tell us how idiotic we are, please feel free to reach out to dads at preacherdad.com.
00:53:06
Speaker
You can email us dads, D-A-D-S,
00:53:10
Speaker
at preacherdad.com. We would love to hear from you. If you've listened this long, we certainly do appreciate your good attention. So thank you so much.
00:53:21
Speaker
We hope to see you next time on Fatherhood Friday. Please join us. Bye-bye.