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Theology Debate: Part 3 - FF S2 E7
19 Plays4 days ago
In this episode we push back a little on one another. Half of our panel is Calvinist (Reformed) and half are Arminian (Free Will), with one moderator that plays the fence! This discussion touches the Free Will/Sovereignty debate in a loving way while we practice "iron sharpening" with one another. Listen and get something good to chew on, no matter what side of the fence you sit.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Theological Debate
00:00:15
Speaker
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to Fatherhood Friday, brought to you by the Preacher Dad podcast. My name is Jared, and I'm the Preacher Dad. And I am so glad you're here with us today for part three of our theological debate, Calvinism versus Arminianism. And if you can believe it, it actually gets a little more interesting.
00:00:32
Speaker
At least I thought so. Here starting in part three things start maybe fireworks popping a little bit We're a little more comfortable maybe pushing back on each other's positions And I think the discussion is a little bit more sharpening So I hope that you enjoy it And I hope that you also remember that this podcast is brought to you in part by Cornerstone Fellowship Cornerstone Fellowship is a tiny little church in the middle of nowhere Georgia But we sure love Jesus and we would love to have you here with us to learn about him and to serve in his kingdom So come and check us out. You can go to cornerstonefellowship-ga.org
00:01:11
Speaker
to find a statement of faith and more videos. And you can also find an address if you want to come and visit us. So anyway, all right, let's start Fatherhood Friday.
Introducing the Debate Panel
00:01:26
Speaker
Well, hello everybody, all of you seven or eight listeners out there. You made it to Friday and this is Fatherhood Friday brought to you by the Preacher Dad Podcast. And folks, we've got a treat for you today. I'm here with my beautiful fatherhood panel. If you're watching on YouTube or some other video ah medium, you know what a gloriously attractive panel of dads are sitting here looking at me. Mr. Mark Blowers,
00:01:54
Speaker
is joining us again to tonight. Mr. Matt Stewart is over there. Nate Eisner is here. And Tony Russell, our illustrious debate moderator, because we are going again tonight, we are going to debate a little bit of Calvinism versus Arminianism, or maybe you're a Calvininimist.
00:02:15
Speaker
I don't know what you are, but hopefully ah at in our discussion this evening, we can ah give you something to think about, maybe challenge your position.
Discussing Theological Differences with Love
00:02:25
Speaker
No matter which side of the coin you come to ah come from, we are hoping to challenge you to think biblically, to think truthfully. All five of us have a high view of scripture. We hold God's word to be authoritative on all matters of faith and life and godliness. So we just have a little bit of different way to look at it. And so we're going to, in Christian love, of course,
00:02:49
Speaker
ah discuss what has been decreed and what we have chosen. We are going to discuss things together in a Christ-like way. ah Certainly, this is an in-family discussion. We wouldn't say that one another are not a believer just because we look at certain scriptures differently than the other.
00:03:07
Speaker
unless those scriptures have to do with, I don't know, the deity of Christ or the virgin birth or something. that might be That might be an issue, but that's not what we're discussing tonight. We're discussing certain Calvinist doctrines. And if you joined us last time, you heard some of the discussion and that
Question: Does Freedom of Choice Affect Loving God?
00:03:23
Speaker
we got into. And so we thought we'd dive off right now into a little bit of cross-examination or questions that we'd like to bring up.
00:03:32
Speaker
And so I'm gonna throw it over to my my brother, Matt. to get us started on that. Matt, what what is it you want to know? Okay. Thank you, Jared. So couple of things. Second question is going to be about from Romans 9 about um Jacob I love, Esau I hated. But the first one, in your opening statement, ah you said, and I quote, because I did go back and listen to it, so I can make sure make sure I got it right. If we do not have the freedom to choose him, yes or no, then I believe our love for him doesn't mean anything because how can I love God if I don't have the ability to choose not to love God? Okay, so it's you're choosing to love God and if you can't choose, then why what then how do I even love? so So I was thinking about that and um wanted just to give a ah couple of thoughts and then get you to clarify that a little bit more about what
00:04:31
Speaker
why you think that's the case. So um Ezekiel 36, and none of this is what, none of what I'm going to say is going to be new. It's just what, just the way that I interpret it. Ezekiel 36, 26 to 27, I will give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I will remove the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues. So again, we're talking about, you know, being born again, regeneration.
00:05:02
Speaker
And so the way that I see it is um if we, when we are regenerated, we have a new heart, therefore we will love him because he first he first loved us. So, um you know, before regeneration, we're,
00:05:23
Speaker
you know enslaved to sin. That's our heart, sinful hearts. Then after regeneration, we have that. We can then choose God, choose to love God, but after the regeneration. And so um I'm not really... But can we choose not to love God after the regeneration?
00:05:43
Speaker
After you're regenerated? No, you you will love God. Okay. He's giving you that heart. But said can choose to love him. But after you've been.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yes, well, after you after after you're regenerated, you're born again, you have a new heart, you will love God, but not like not coercion or anything like you're free now to love God. Because that is the definition, but but that is the definition of coercion, Matt. If if I don't have the ability to choose not to, then I am coerced into loving
Paul's Internal Struggle in Romans 7
00:06:19
Speaker
him. I'm forced to love him.
00:06:21
Speaker
I cannot even choose to resist. I can't even say no, thank you. I have to love him. That is coercion. Well, I just, I interpret it like I said, and then I will let Mark speak because I know he he mentioned something about that last week as well. But after we have that new heart, we will we will want to please God. We will want to love God. we that That's what he does. He makes us into a new person and we will love him. I mean, that's just the way I see it. Mark, what what did you?
00:06:53
Speaker
Well, so when you say coercion, that implies that there's going to be something that is resisting after we are regenerate, right? I um um ah i don't know or you'll know if I understand your question.
00:07:08
Speaker
like Well, when Paul is talking in Romans 7, He's talking about, he's doing things that he, the things that he knows that he should be doing, he's not doing, and the things that he doesn't want to be doing, he does do. And throughout all of that though, he he's talking about this duality between him, the flesh and the spirit, but he's identifying, he's identifying with the spirit
Human Inability Without God's Grace
00:07:35
Speaker
part.
00:07:35
Speaker
The things I know I should be doing, i don't He's like, and then the things I don't want to be doing, i I do. And so, but what's consistent, even though there's, he's talking about the inconsistency within himself, the consistency there is that he knows and wants to love God essentially.
00:07:55
Speaker
Right. and I think that that's what Matt's trying to say is like, you're, you're going to have this kind of the up and down of, of sinning and repentance and, and that kind of thing.
00:08:06
Speaker
But you're always, you're, going to be moving towards wanting to love God, right? That's kind of, that's, that's how I understand it. Now, the, the point is that we are born, you know, if sin is missing the mark and it's like, we're shooting an arrow and we miss the bullseye, it's not that we shoot and we miss the bullseye. It's that we're turned around and we're fired in the other direction, right? We're never going to actually by our own desire that we conjure up within ourselves, love God. right One famous atheist said, what can i what is it that an atheist, what moral thing can an atheist never do that Christians can do?
00:08:50
Speaker
And he said he said that he's talked to all kinds of, it wasn't just Christians, it was just any kind of theist. He was an atheist, so he debated everyone. But he said, I've never met anyone who could give me a right answer. And the right answer is love God.
00:09:04
Speaker
Right. That's what a that is what an unbeliever, an atheist, the moral thing that they can never do is love God. And um and that's what being that's that's what being enslaved to sin is. Romans three is, you know, from the head down to your toes, you are depraved.
00:09:27
Speaker
And um at least the first the first 11 verses are Romans three. And. So you're never going to, by your own will, love God, choose God, do good, unless he first loves you.
00:09:46
Speaker
Then you are able to love from that point. So we have love that we show because his love has been expressed on us. And so like Ezekiel 36, it says that he will cause us to walk in his statutes because prior we we could not.
00:10:07
Speaker
Right. So let let me, I think I understand better your questions.
Question: Can Grace Be Rejected?
00:10:11
Speaker
And so let me try to ah provide a little bit of clarification here. It's mostly related to the idea of um irresistible grace or the idea that you will be saved and you cannot you cannot choose not to be. You cannot even have the option to reject the free gift of grace.
00:10:36
Speaker
And I believe that you can reject that grace because I think that if you cannot, if if grace is forced upon you, if you have you are going to be saved,
00:10:48
Speaker
No matter what you decide, no matter what choice you might want to make, you will be saved, period. And I resist that because I think that that cheapens my love.
00:11:00
Speaker
Because if if I am programmed to love God, if I am forced to Love him, even though you you guys are right. I cannot do it on my own. I can't choose to love God without God first calling me, without God giving me grace, without God regenerating my heart and and and bringing me to him.
00:11:22
Speaker
I'm not choosing God without him calling me. The Bible does say none of us come to him without him first calling us. So I think that God bestows grace, but where I think we have a choice is whether or not to receive that grace, to to believe what he's already given to us, or i can choose to reject the grace. I can reject what he's given to me. And what I was saying about love being coerced, love being forced upon me, if I am forced to love, then it's not really love. If Adam and Eve didn't have the option
00:11:59
Speaker
to reject God's instruction. Now again, they were not they were not fallen. They chose to sin without a sin nature. They still decided they would they would rebel against God.
00:12:13
Speaker
And I think that if they were not given the freedom or the ability to make that choice, to reject God, again, we're talking about the choice to reject God, not necessarily the choice to love God, the choice to reject Him.
00:12:28
Speaker
If they were not given that choice and they only could love him, then that love is not really love because there's no other option. It's not it's not a decision that was made. it's it's not a um i mean it's it's you know if Driving a Ferrari is not that awesome if everyone owns a Ferrari and there's no other choice. There's no other car company, only Ferraris. Well, it's no longer that cool. It's just ah it's just a car It doesn't mean anything. The meaning is diminished if I am not free to to to reject the gift of God's grace.
00:13:03
Speaker
And that's what I was trying to communicate when I made that statement.
Arranged Marriage Analogy for Choice and Love
00:13:08
Speaker
So as a follow-up question, do you, you say that it cheapens your love.
00:13:17
Speaker
Do you think that, so like, Do you think that if a wife does not have the freedom to choose her husband, then that love is is cheaper? it it should be a mutual. The husband chooses the wife and then the wife responds by choosing the husband back.
00:13:41
Speaker
I think that an arranged marriage is a marriage that has to grow into love. Okay. You know, they they have to... You know, if we're using that analogy, yeah, I mean, he he might love her, but if she's not given the option, if she's forced to marry him, she doesn't love him. She's just being obedient. Okay.
00:14:01
Speaker
Okay. So there's not love there yet. Now, there could be eventually if she, you know, as time goes on, she's like, you know, this guy's kind of okay to have a around, I think. And then she's given, you know, then she's, she can grow into that love.
00:14:16
Speaker
Okay. but so But there's at the beginning, if she's forced into it, she doesn't love him. She's being obedient. Okay. I agree. And my point in that using that analogy, you say, if we're going to use this analogy, I use that analogy because that's the analogy that scripture uses of Christ's union with, with his church. Right.
00:14:36
Speaker
And he says, and, and in it, because it's talking about husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And, wives obey your husbands and you have this mutual reflection of the gospel in marriage, right? Of husbands choosing wives and then wives submitting to their husbands. And the way it says it in in Ephesians... Submitting to their husbands by choice.
00:15:03
Speaker
Okay, yes. but But also because in a perfect marriage, how many wives that are married to, you know, a Jesus type figure or rolling their eyes going, wow, I have to, you know, submit to this, to this guy. But it's beside the point. The point is that in in verse 25, it says, husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word that he might present to himself the
00:15:39
Speaker
the church in sense, he's saying, you husbands love your wives in way that And so in a sense he's saying you know husbands love your wives in ah in a way that actually beautifies her right and it You know, in our day and age, we understand husbands choosing wives and the wives choosing to obey. And, you know, it's this mutuality. Well, in this context, there was only ah right there wasn't, you know, women just choosing to to to marry. It was wives being given in marriage.
00:16:19
Speaker
Right. I mean, it was only this kind of arranged marriage, and yet it uses this as a picture of christ's union with the church right of christ of christ choosing for himself this bride or choosing know for the people whom the father has has chosen to bring to himself and you know people back then reading this in the original time wouldn't have been like this this thought of oh well wives choose to submit to their husbands it wouldn't that wouldn't have occurred to them it would have been
00:16:57
Speaker
Oh, yes, this makes sense. the The husband goes and chooses a bride and then makes that bride beautiful in his love for her.
00:17:08
Speaker
And that love for her expressed to her beautifies her and actually, you know, it grows in their love through that union.
Sanctification and Free Will in Marriage
00:17:16
Speaker
So I agree. Yes, arranged marriages, that love isn't there, but it grows. Right. Just in our sanctification over time is a growing in love for God.
00:17:27
Speaker
that will culminate and come to fruition in glory so i hear you i hear you and um i don't think we're totally on opposite sheets of music here but i would say in response i would say one the scripture passage you're referencing is talking about sanctification it's not talking about regeneration it's talking about the the bride being sanctified, purified. And I do believe that that happens and that God is continually doing that, presenting to himself a holy and blameless bride, you know, one day. And in in addition to that, um going back to the context of arranged marriages and wives um being forced into the marriage, I mean, they still had to choose to submit.
00:18:17
Speaker
because otherwise why did paul say wives submit to your husbands if they were just automatically no choice they definitely were going to no some of them wouldn't and so that's why he's admonishing them to do so so i think that uh i think that even within the biblical analogy that the bride or those that are called or wooed or allured to become part of the bride of Christ still have the freedom to reject that offer. That doesn't make the offer any more of works.
00:18:52
Speaker
It doesn't make it a works-based salvation just because I choose to reject a free gift. So anyway, that's that's kind of where I'm coming from. I think you know you know i think that this kind of comes back ah to something that I wanted to bring up to you guys, if you don't mind me,
00:19:08
Speaker
diverting a little bit because it's it's not really diversion. um There's a a scripture passage that I came across, actually a number of them, in which um things that God wants to happen do not happen.
Question: Does Free Will Affect Salvation?
00:19:26
Speaker
Like ah in Timothy 2, verse It says God wants all men to be saved. He will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.
00:19:40
Speaker
But we know based on the rest of scripture that that does not happen. There are some people that are cast into the lake of fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. So that's ah that's a will of God that is not accomplished.
00:19:53
Speaker
And there's another passage, and you'll forgive me, I hope, for not looking this up beforehand, but I think you'll remember the passage. which says where Jesus said, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you under my wings as a mother gathers or mother hen or a mother gathers her chicks, mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not.
00:20:19
Speaker
Jesus is saying, I wanted to do this for you, but you wouldn't, you resisted what I wanted. Now, I think those, and there's a couple other scriptures that I've come across as well, but those seem to be pretty clear.
00:20:34
Speaker
There's another one, I think, in Timothy that says he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So we know that doesn't happen.
00:20:46
Speaker
ah So how what is how do you answer that? Because to me, when I read those, I just read God wants something that doesn't happen. That doesn't mean God is not sovereign. It doesn't mean that he's not in charge of things. It just means that he chooses to allow us to reject what he wants.
00:21:04
Speaker
In the case of Jesus, he wanted Jerusalem to repent, but they would not. They they chose not to. And so how do you explain those in regards to free will and, and and you know, election?
00:21:22
Speaker
Can I... Just in a quick yes or no, just so I can know how better to answer moving forward. Do you, do you think that we have the same, when you say free will, are you talking about, do you think that we have the same free will that Adam had as a, as an.
Human Nature and Need for Grace
00:21:41
Speaker
No. Okay. How? Okay. Because we are not in the same situation. We are corrupted by sin. We, we, we have, when we're born.
00:21:52
Speaker
We're all automatically on on on a disadvantage that he didn't have. Yeah, okay. Okay.
00:22:05
Speaker
um So, with- So in that sense, Mark, what I'm saying by that is that we don't have any ability in ourselves to pursue Christ.
00:22:18
Speaker
But once he calls us, Once he beckons us into the family, we have the ability to reject that calling.
00:22:30
Speaker
We can rebel. We can stiff neck, turn our ourself against him, even though he wants that to happen. He wants our repentance. We don't necessarily have to repent.
00:22:40
Speaker
We can reject it, but we can't on our own attain Christ or pursue him left to ourselves without the grace of God bestowed upon us. We could not come to him. But that's why we're saved by grace through faith. That's why grace is required is because we can't get there on our own.
00:22:59
Speaker
So that's. And no, I do want to answer your question, but how do we hear that calling? When you say when him calling us, what is. What is is that an internal call?
00:23:14
Speaker
i don't I don't know. I mean, it comes to ah like all kinds of people differently. OK. All right. You're not talking about like the gospel call. of of like a preacher on a street corner necessarily you're talking about a different kind of like god calling yeah when when you feel the conviction of the holy spirit calling you to repentance of your sins yes okay well like for the texts the two in particular because those are the two that you mentioned with the first timothy two you know it it says and we talked about this a little bit last week but
00:23:49
Speaker
This was a follow-up question that I wanted to have anyway, so it it helps. It says, he desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one... meet He says, because there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all the testimony given at the proper time.
Question: Is Christ's Mediation Universal?
00:24:14
Speaker
So when it... You say it with your definition of all, that means all men everywhere for all of time. Do you take that same definition of all and apply it to verse six, where it makes Christ the mediator and the ransom for all?
00:24:31
Speaker
Yes. So christ is a Christ as a mediator is... So what is a mediator doing?
00:24:42
Speaker
What does a mediator... The mediator is... How would the original audience have understood mediator? Mediating a covenant. got The go-between between two covenant parties. like a Like a high priest in the in the Old Testament?
00:25:01
Speaker
light No. I mean, the high priest was a mediator, but if they were hearing the word mediator, they would probably reference... the the cutting of a covenant. And there was usually a go-between between the greater person and the lesser person. The greater was offering the covenant, the lesser was receiving or rejecting the covenant. And the mediator was the one that was kind of the go-between, was the one that was kind of facilitating things to happen.
00:25:26
Speaker
that's That's what they would have heard contextually or or culturally, I mean. ah But if you're speaking of what does Christ do or what does a mediator do in the relation of salvation, I'm not sure exactly what What you mean, and I'm thinking like if Christ is the intercessor the way that I think about it is if Christ is Interceding as a mediator between us and the father whoever is he is interceding for is is protected right they are they are not it They are not going to be touched It's like like the priests in the old covenant, you was the mediator between God and the people and if he
00:26:08
Speaker
Officiated this sacrificial system that the people were going through in faith then they were Clean at that time right and so Christ He interceded for Peter when Satan wanted to sift him and he did not intercede for Judas when Satan wanted to enter him and whoever Christ is interceding for as our as the one who is who is the mediator between us We are we are safe and I would not say that Christ is a mediator for all people that Christ is I would I would say Christ is as I understand mediator and his intercession for the church it is It is for the believers and that is what keeps us in and preserves us in God is us is him in that constant
00:27:01
Speaker
I priestly rule of mediating that covenant for his people. and that's so yeah And that's what keeps us. So then in in from your approach then in this scripture passage, yeah who are the all that he is the mediator for?
00:27:20
Speaker
Well, the all would would have to be restricted. that's That would be my point is that if you if we're going to take the word all And that what gives me, what helps me constrict it is if I look at all in all of the, in the three different places that it's used,
00:27:39
Speaker
um I would want to be consistent in how I use it and not just say, well, you know, God desires all people everywhere for all of time to be saved, but then he's a mediator for only this small group of or not small, I don't think it will be small, but... Right, they have to all be the same thing context. Right, they have to be consistent.
00:28:04
Speaker
um And so it is, you know, again, all kinds. And I know that y'all would not... So I think where we would differ here is that I would say that ah the mediation can be rejected.
00:28:20
Speaker
The mediation offered, this is the offer of a mediation. Just like in 1 John... Chapter two, it says that he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
00:28:34
Speaker
That's in first John two, verse two. So can take my thunder. That's for later. I'm sorry. But that is that is the same context here is that he is the mediator for everyone. He's the savior of the world. But that doesn't mean that his offer cannot be rejected.
00:28:54
Speaker
Yes, his mediation is absolutely effective in all situations. It's effective. It will work every time. But.
00:29:06
Speaker
Oh, no, we're lost him. ah Well, that's the face of a man whose computer has just died.
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Speaker
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00:30:03
Speaker
yep so Yeah, well, i was gonna I was gonna ask him this, but since we got a second, Nate, Tony, whoever, y'all can answer it. All right, so if those he foreknew he called and those he called, he justified some that chose him.
00:30:24
Speaker
Now, like those he foreknew, he called those he called, he justified. So I'm not sure if he's calling, how you can reject the calling because it says he will justify you. I think all of these framings are what make this such a complicated discussion, because I think you can be logically internally consistent all the way through on both sides.
00:30:48
Speaker
And that's why I'm still kind of not certainly dogmatic one way or the other, because you could say, just like you're arguing there, that, well, because or he you know whoever he foreknew, he predestined, and whoever he predestined, he justified.
00:31:05
Speaker
Therefore, that chain must maintain the same population in every branch. But it would not be inconsistent to read that passage in a different way. to say he foreknew everything, he called everybody, he justified those who received him. That's not an inconsistent read on that statement.
00:31:29
Speaker
It still logically follows that he still predestines the world, he still calls everybody. There is not an overlap in those particular groups.
00:31:40
Speaker
And those there's there's a subset who's going to receive the justification that flows from his original predestination, his original call. But there's still an element of choice that still exists inside of that chain.
00:31:55
Speaker
and it's It's the more natural reading of the of the call of events in that particular passage. But it's it's one of those things where I can so i can see where If you're trying to say, well, no, no, no, no these every every single group has to be maintained in the exact same way, that's not necessarily logically inconsistent, but it's not necessarily either the only way that you can interpret that passage in a logically consistent way.
00:32:22
Speaker
Thank you, Tony.
00:32:25
Speaker
Matt, I saw your hand raised before I was summarily cut out by the predestination of God. That's right. We just talked about it. I just kept on going with with my questions, so we don't have to.
00:32:37
Speaker
We don't have to go back. I'm sorry. I didn't want your answer on that one, Jared. God said, that's enough. He's talked enough. Shut the guy up. I'll tell you what, the the conversation you guys just had is a fantastic one, and it really leads well into one of the questions that I had for tonight. do you guys want to lead off into that, or do you want to keep on some of these strange thoughts?
00:33:01
Speaker
Can Jared finish his thought? You were in the middle of a thought, I thought, I thought you were in the middle of it. Yeah. I was basically, I was just saying that the mediation of Christ is always effective. That doesn't mean that he cannot be rejected. And so when I think, honestly, Mark, I love you, brother. You know, I do. i just think that you're kind of reading into that passage, the things that you believe have to be true about it in order for your
00:33:32
Speaker
theological system to work. But I don't think that you would take that from that passage if you just straight straight read it. That's my that's my opinion. but all All in Christian love.
00:33:44
Speaker
yeah I it.
God's Love for Believers and Non-believers
00:33:48
Speaker
Thank you. you said you and and You said you wanted to move on to a different question? Yeah, Tony, do you have, you can dive right into into what you're saying.
00:33:56
Speaker
For sure, because you brought up 1 John 2, 1 and 2, and that's part of a reference chain here that brought me into one ah one of the the other questions I had for teen Calvinism over here.
00:34:09
Speaker
So I'll throw it out. In what meaningful sense does God love the non-elect reprobate whom he has decreed for eternal destruction? And the question is generated, you know, first from John 3, 16 and 17. For God's love of the world and he his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
00:34:28
Speaker
For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. And then 1 John 2, my little children, I'm writing these things to you so that you may not sin.
00:34:41
Speaker
But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
00:34:53
Speaker
what would What would be the the effect of actual godly love towards a creation that can never receive this. Matt, do you want to say anything? No, you go ahead, Mark.
00:35:09
Speaker
Do, um, well, do we agree? Do we just understanding where we start off? Are there different kinds of love that God shows towards people?
00:35:23
Speaker
When we, when we're throwing out the word love, when the world throws out the word love and says love is and doesn't define it or anything. what do What do we, do we think when we're talking about God's love for the church, are we talking about the same love that he has for unbelievers?
00:35:42
Speaker
Depends on the passage. This passage frames for us what God loves, what God's love does and how it's affected. So I, yes, of course, there's a different love for a bride than there is for someone who's rejected you.
00:35:56
Speaker
But, in this particular passage, whenever we're trying to understand the love of God, the very first place I would go is the passage itself as it expresses what this love means, what it does, and who it's for. Okay.
00:36:13
Speaker
um just for Just for information's sake, Mark, I just looked it up. The word love in John 3.16 is agape. Right. um But I'm, yeah, okay.
00:36:26
Speaker
So, and I would say, like with the John 316, I kind of, as a post-millennialist, I have somewhat of a, a I wouldn't say a cop-out, but i i can say, i do not agree that hell will be filled with multitudes more than heaven will.
00:36:45
Speaker
I think. I think you're right. I think that the number in heaven at the end of the at the end of time will be far greater than the number that are in hell.
00:37:02
Speaker
um So when people bring up like the narrow gate passage, I interpret i do not interpret that as the you know a small number that's going in. So yes, God does so love the world and god so God will save the world through the proclamation and expansion of God's kingdom through of the gospel and the expansion of God's kingdom over the whole earth.
00:37:26
Speaker
And God does express but but to answer your question just very generally and briefly it is God's love shown to people is in patience um as it as it talks about you know he he didn't just flood the earth he waited for 400 years um and then you know saved eight people out of the out of the flood the but the
00:37:57
Speaker
you know to answer this To answer this, I i had somebody kind of ask me this question who was who was a a former Satanist and atheist who hated everything about Christianity. He had hate tattooed across his fingers and 666 tattooed on him.
00:38:18
Speaker
He's a very dear friend of mine. I truly love him. um And he was a co-worker that I worked side by side with for a long time. But he talked about how he hated, he he just talked about how much he he hated Christianity and he and he said, you know, i don't I don't get why you Christians say that I'm going, that your God will send me and a bunch of other people to hell because he loves me, doesn't he? Why why will he send me to hell?
00:38:44
Speaker
My answer to him was, and I know you all probably wouldn't use the same tactic, but my answer was, who told you that God loves you the same way he loves me? um I said, he does not love you the same way he loves me.
00:39:00
Speaker
um His love for me as his love for his bride or a bride will be different than the love that he shows you. Yes, he has common grace. Yes, he makes the rain shine or on fall on the just and the unjust, right? There is, he doesn't take your breath the moment he blasts you blaspheme him. He doesn't, you know, there is just, he's,
00:39:24
Speaker
giving you further life in this beautiful creation that he has given you. um That is, that is part of his love that he shows for you. But what I showed him was, was Romans eight. And I just said, you know, the love of God, you can't be separated from the love of God that you're talking about, that you think will save you when you stand before him in judgment, you know, that you're mocking me about right now, you know, that, When it says, um you know, nothing will separate us from the love of, of what does it say? It says, for I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God.
00:40:14
Speaker
But then it ends with which is in Christ Jesus. I said, you don't have that. Matt, because you're not in, not you, Matt. Matt was the, I said, you don't have that, Matt, because you're not in Christ.
00:40:27
Speaker
So you are not experiencing that love of God, because if you were experiencing it, nothing could separate you from it. But you're saying that you're already in it because you've just been told God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. And you have no idea what, you know, you have no idea what Christianity is.
00:40:44
Speaker
And so, and honestly, that, that was the thing that actually shut him up. Finally, because now he had a God that didn't love him the way that he had been told and loved him, you know, his whole life.
00:41:00
Speaker
Now he had to deal with a God who was indignant on him every day, as the Psalms say. And, you know, the one who loves violence, his soul hates. That God, that's the God he's dealing with now.
00:41:13
Speaker
And so we have to have a category of God's of of different levels of God's love. Yes, of course, God does love the the the reprobate in in some way, but it's not going to be the same way.
00:41:30
Speaker
That is the way God loves his church. And I think another way in which God loves people is that he doesn't make them.
00:41:43
Speaker
He is restraining them from being what they will be in hell. Um, you know, we, we talk often about, you know, I cannot see your mouth is not, we haven't, we can't express the glory that's going to be revealed to us when we get to heaven as believers, right?
00:42:04
Speaker
We can't express with just how glorious that is. C.S. Lewis said that if we saw what we will be in glory, we'd be tempted to worship ourselves, right? That's how changed we will be in glory.
00:42:16
Speaker
Well, I think the same is true for people who go to hell. They are gonna receive a a raised body also, but it's gonna be a raised body that is entirely stripped of all of that common grace love that has been expressed to them for all their entire time here on earth, right? It's gonna be like, it you're not, just as we would be tempted to worship the, you know, the our glorified state in heaven,
00:42:46
Speaker
we will be tempted to think that what we're looking at of the people who are in hell, stripped of God's grace, as we would be tempted to look at them as just an an actual demon, because they're going to be gnashing their teeth in hatred of God for all of eternity.
00:43:03
Speaker
That's what I think gnashing teeth is. When they gnash their teeth at Stephen, when they gnash their teeth at Jesus, it's not in pain necessarily, it's in hatred. And so they're they are going to continue in that hatred as they...
00:43:16
Speaker
you know have been doing on earth, just unvarnished and unrestrained. um Like an animal with rabies, it would be unrecognizable. And so God has kept and restrained that evil on this earth.
00:43:34
Speaker
And that is a part of his just grace. He doesn't have to do that. We could all just run around as murderers and rapists and everything else stealing. And we don't. There are some people who do, right?
00:43:45
Speaker
And they just, God just let the leash off on their depravity. But there are many who don't. um And so that's how I would, it that's how I would view God's love of a reprobate world is that even though Romans three, that talks about there is none who choose for God or none who seek after God, none who do what's right. There's, you know, their mouths are,
00:44:16
Speaker
like vipers and he goes throughout the entire human anatomy talking about how depraved we are and it's like he's stating that as if that's what we are and that is what we are so why aren't we just running around you know seeking murder and all this all the time it's because of god's grace or his love for us that is different than the love that he has for the church
00:44:41
Speaker
all said okay don't everybody talk at once i was gonna i wasn't trying to jump in on that one but i do have a follow-up with that one because i i agree with almost everything you said just there like there's obviously a differentiation between the way that god loves his own versus those that are not of his own uh and there's there is we're not going to get into the question i mean you you all can bring it up but uh one of them that we're not getting to tonight is the the fact that like if you are a spiritually dead person how can you possibly make a decision
00:45:12
Speaker
for the Lord. if i I think that's a ah pretty compelling element. However, ah think that when it comes to a passage like this, I think you pull in an enormous amount of things that aren't there to be able to make it work.
00:45:26
Speaker
ah and Verse 17 is more the hang-up than verse 16 in the way I look at this. I'm sorry, John 3, 17. Explicitly the goal of God's love explicitly the the the goal of god's love is not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
00:45:46
Speaker
And in your interpretation, that's wrong. I should say that the world might be constrained through him, through the church that grows around them. And I i don't, um I'm thinking of this explanation of Jesus telling Nicodemus in the garden at night why he came.
00:46:05
Speaker
It doesn't ring consistent to me for him to be trying to throw out all these elusive things that Nicodemus would have immediately gotten wrong, to think that the gospel was coming for all people and that salvation was a gift available for all people. That's the way it's presented um here towards Nicodemus. And then to to elevate that to say, well, not all, just the ones that God knew were going to pick it.
00:46:32
Speaker
And then everybody else were never capable of receiving in the first place. That's not an element. of the way that Jesus is presenting his mission to the lost priest.
Salvation as a Gift for All Who Believe
00:46:43
Speaker
So i i i struggle with this one only from the standpoint that it if Jesus was trying to tell Nicodemus that my essentially that my love for the world is such that those who I will allow will we become part of my church and keep the rest of you dog people at bay.
00:47:08
Speaker
so that you don't overrun the world. That's not at all what this passage says. And I have a hard time walking away. through I get the fundamental overview of that God's love has to be different between the condemned and the redeemed.
00:47:23
Speaker
It very clearly is, because if it wasn't, there wouldn't be the same outcome. um or that There would be the same outcome. There would be either universal redemption or universal condemnation. And I understand that's a problem.
00:47:35
Speaker
for the Armenian side, trying to figure out how do you arrange these things in terms of how does ah how does God's love manifest? us But at least in this particular straightforward explanation of Jesus himself to Nicodemus, it appears that through the straight reading of this passage, the presentation Jesus is making is that my gift is for everyone who will believe.
00:47:58
Speaker
And that that gift is the ultimate um mission that he brings to the world.
00:48:08
Speaker
All right, folks, that's all the time we have for today, but I hope that you'll join us next time for part four, the conclusion of this theological
Closing and Listener Engagement
00:48:16
Speaker
discussion. I hope that these debates have been sharpening to you and helpful to you. We had a lot of interest in the last episode, so I hope this one has also been encouraging to you.
00:48:28
Speaker
And so I would love for you to send us an email, dads at preacherdad.com. If you would like to let us know your thoughts or reach out to us in any way, dads at preacherdad.com.
00:48:40
Speaker
And we would love to hear from you. Or you can comment on this video. or you can subscribe and like the video, and that would also be helpful. Well, God bless you. I hope that we have sharpened and strengthened you today, and I hope that you will continue in the fight and raise your children up to follow the Lord and glorify Jesus Christ. So God bless you, and we'll see next time on Fatherhood Friday.