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Theology Debate: Part 4 - FF S2 E8
18 Plays20 days ago
In this conclusion to our series on Calvinism and Arminianism, the debate turns ugly! Just kidding! But we do continue to push back on one another's arguments, trying to identify weak points and just in general making one another sharper. Listen in as Iron sharpens Iron before your eyes! Can we resist God's decree, if he predestines us for salvation? We discuss this subject and so much more!
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Transcript
Predetermined Faith vs. Free Will
00:00:05
Speaker
The big question is, do you, and this is where this debate all hinges really, is whether or not when Jesus is knocking on your heart, that's a foregone conclusion that now you're in the club and you're going to come on in, or does God give you a chance to keep the door shut?
00:00:20
Speaker
And that's Jared's of the opinion, I think, that God allows us not to outdo his sovereignty, but to respond and to have a say in the way that we respond.
Introduction and Sponsor
00:00:36
Speaker
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the Preacher Dad podcast. You've made it to Friday. And this is our Fatherhood Friday episode. And it's part four of our Calvinism versus Arminianism debate.
00:00:49
Speaker
That's right. We settle it here, folks. We decide after hundreds of years, we figured out exactly what the Bible is saying. Well, no, not quite exactly. No one's mind has changed.
00:01:00
Speaker
But I think we'll give you something to think about as we have for all of these episodes. And I hope that you'll find this one to be intriguing and thought provoking. We're going to dive right in in just a second. But first, I want to remind you that this podcast is brought to you by Cornerstone Fellowship. Cornerstone Fellowship is a small country church in the middle of nowhere, Georgia, just a little north of Tombsboro, Georgia. And we would love to bring you in and welcome you in and ah with open arms and love you love point you to Jesus. We love Christ first and foremost, and we want to point you to him.
00:01:35
Speaker
And we would love to just fellowship with you and live life with you. So check us out online at
00:01:50
Speaker
And we would love to love you. Well, God bless you. And now let's start Fatherhood Fridays.
God's Love: Universal vs. Selective
00:02:06
Speaker
I have a hard time walking away. I get the fundamental overview of that God's love has to be different between the condemned and the redeemed. It very clearly is because if it wasn't, there wouldn't be the same out outcome. There would be the same outcome. There would be either universal redemption or universal condemnation. And I understand that's a problem for the Armenian side trying to figure out how do you arrange these things in terms of how does how does God's love manifest? But at least in this particular straightforward explanation of Jesus himself to Nicodemus, it appears that through the straight reading of this passage, the presentation Jesus is making is that my gift is for everyone who will believe.
00:02:51
Speaker
And that that gift is the ultimate um mission that he brings to the world. Now, I know, Mark, you just you just perked up there because you you heard me say, you will believe.
00:03:03
Speaker
And now your thought is, see, here's the funnel. And this is that where that limit it limits everybody else. But what you're reading into that, though, is that those who believe there's such a preset group, no one can exist inside of that group.
00:03:17
Speaker
oh And that is not is not outside, or basically that the love of the world is constrained to this small, tiny group and does not exist outside of this group, offering something to those that are outside of this group.
Divine Sovereignty and Human Agency
00:03:32
Speaker
that they will may may not receive. Right. And the reason I say they cannot is because in these verses it says, unless you are born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
00:03:43
Speaker
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless... No argument. i don't know I don't disagree with that at all. that's thats so So, what is is... So, cannot, is that a word of ability? That's that's a word of consequence.
00:03:57
Speaker
That's a... You don't see that as kind like you don't see that as the kind of like the the when someone raised their hand and say, can I go to the bathroom? And they go, oh no, can you, you don't see it like that in terms of, in terms of ability, as opposed to permission. Right. Like the, the way it unravels in the, in that passage there to me, it's saying, if you do this, then this will happen.
00:04:20
Speaker
If you, um if you're not, you know, born of God, you cannot have this. Yeah. and I mean, and this is, again, it's, It's i I agree. And I know this is where we get into, like, the the decree of God and and what, you know, there is much of this decree that God has not revealed to us. But there is much that he has revealed to us.
00:04:43
Speaker
Right. and the And I do also believe that whoever whoever wants to come to Christ will will come to him. my I think the issue does go back to who wants to Right. I mean, where do we see in Scripture anybody wanting?
00:05:02
Speaker
it Where do we see that ah ability of people wanting to come to God? Right. This is I don't see that in Romans three. Romans one and two are explaining. He's these challenging the Gentiles and saying, you're all condemned. In Romans two, he's talking to the Jews and he's saying, you're all condemned. And then they all start yelling at him. And he says, so it is written.
00:05:26
Speaker
And he just, it's like, so it is written is like, here are a bunch of Old Testament scriptures describing all of humanity and its total depravity. Right.
00:05:37
Speaker
And because it, once he says it is, as it is written, everyone's going to shut up because that's the word of God. This is going to be Old Testament stuff that he's quoting. And, and he's going down and just saying, you are absolutely and totally depraved to where you you will not of your own volition choose. Now, yes he does end up revealing, you know, God does reveal how some of this process is laid out, but it doesn't, that doesn't take away from the idea that we are, the the sin nature is is head to toe, right? and i I don't disagree with that at all. i I think you're absolutely correct. And I think the Bible is explicitly clear that the depravity of humanity is complete.
00:06:26
Speaker
But there's there's no element of humanity that loves God, seeks God, that would of its own will obey God. But I believe when the proximity of God is knocking on your your heart, something changes.
00:06:38
Speaker
And that's the the big question is, do you, and this is where this debate all hinges, really, is whether or not when Jesus is knocking on your heart, it's a foregone conclusion that now you're in the club and you're going to come on in.
00:06:50
Speaker
Or does God give you a chance to keep the door shut? And that's Jared's of the opinion, I think, that God allows us not to outdo his sovereignty, but to respond and to have a say in the way that we respond.
Calvinism vs. Arminianism: A Middle Ground
00:07:06
Speaker
And then God's sovereignty is enacted upon us where we enjoy all the fruit of our reprobate money. But that there's some element in there where God invites us to participate that is is not quite as deterministic as all all of everything was so preset that there is no more element of agency.
00:07:34
Speaker
but Is that a correct ah recap there, Jared, or anybody else for that matter?
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah. i i I love listening to you guys discuss these things. I mean, it's good for me. i feel like, honestly, I feel like there's a lot of truth on both sides of this coin. Yeah.
00:07:57
Speaker
And that probably the completeness of it is somewhere in the middle. I'm probably a Calvinianist or something like that. Um, because I can, I think that there's definitely ah there's a, there's a synergistic place here where I think the free will of man and the sovereignty of God somehow have to kind of connect or work together in some way.
00:08:20
Speaker
And i I think that it's right for us to uplift the power of Christ, the power of God, the sovereignty, the rulership, the authority, the kingship of our savior.
00:08:30
Speaker
But I also think that that does not preclude or exclude the ability of humans to decide things, to to to either accept or reject the goodness of God toward them.
00:08:43
Speaker
but But this is a good, helpful, strengthening discussion, in my opinion. And so I've, I personally enjoy you guys kind of going back and forth a little bit. um I, you know, we are trying not to take forever on this discussion, ladies and gentlemen, so please bear with us. But, you know, some of this stuff is, is pretty important that you have at least a reasonable answer for. And so that's part of the reason we're having this conversation is one to have a reasonable answer and two
00:09:17
Speaker
to maybe give a little bit of an example of how brothers in Christ can significantly disagree and walk away still brothers in Christ and and and have a conversation about this that is based around love and respect and and for one another and for Christ himself.
Scriptural Challenges and Interpretations
00:09:35
Speaker
Tony, I think that you had said that you had another question or two. or i do right Yep, you're up. So this, to me, sounds like Jesus...
00:09:46
Speaker
is explaining his sovereignty exactly like Mark would. So as I'm, for me, this passage is the most difficult one for me to come out outright as like full, not Armenian, because I really have no clue what they believe.
00:10:05
Speaker
So I don't necessarily want to jump in that camp because the first thing that hops into my brain in association is the Armenian genocide. And I don't have any idea how any of that is related or unrelated because I'm way too ignorant. so um But in terms of trying to comprehend the sovereignty of God, Jesus being the authority on that matter, that's a very peculiar way to explain it for someone who would take on more of the position of agency. So this is John chapter 6.
00:10:36
Speaker
This is just three passages out of John chapter 6. First is verse 37 through Jesus speaking. this is all jesus speaking All that the Father gives me will come to me.
00:10:49
Speaker
Whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but to do the will the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
00:11:03
Speaker
And then in verse 43, and Jesus answered them, Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Connecting that thought to that first passage there.
00:11:17
Speaker
And then in verse 34. I'm sorry. Verse 64 through 65. But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning. Who those were who did not believe.
00:11:27
Speaker
And who it was who would betray him. And he said. This is why I told you. That no one no one can come to me. Unless it is granted to him by my father.
00:11:39
Speaker
It seems like. Mark is right. That everything is pretty well set in the function of predetermination and God's foreknowledge.
00:11:51
Speaker
That whatever is happening ah is not just already known, which we would all agree on, but it's not escapable.
00:12:02
Speaker
That they're those that are that will one day belong to the kingdom of God are already now determined. And they none of them will escape. None of them will be left behind because nothing that's granted to Jesus is going to be missed.
00:12:21
Speaker
It also seems that those that he knew would not accept or would not be part of the family don't get the invitation.
00:12:34
Speaker
In sixty four or verse it is granted to him by thought. no one can come unless he's grained unless it is grained to him by the far there is There isn't even an invitation for those that are not part of the believers.
00:12:49
Speaker
How do you read through that and keep it consistent with the idea of agency inside of the body or inside of humanity generally?
00:13:01
Speaker
Go ahead, Nate. i was going to say you start. I'm collecting thoughts. Okay. okay well i i would like to just say that um my mind has changed and you guys are right uh i have to say that this passage of scripture is pretty challenging and it does seem to read that there's predetermination that happens and i would say that at this point what i would what i would say here as i looked at it is that for knowledge does not mean for determination
00:13:37
Speaker
It doesn't mean that because God knows what's going to happen and therefore he gives those who would believe unto Christ. i would I would sooner say that this passage is indicating um a place of eternal security or that you know no one can no one can be snatched away if they're given unto Christ. He doesn't doesn't get overcome by somebody to snatch us away from him. ah Before I would say that it ah that it says that there is a predetermination for us.
00:14:13
Speaker
and It says that God knows and that God gives who he knows. He gives them to Christ and no one can take them away. So. it's It's a hard one. i'm I'm going to admit it. And i struggle with this one.
00:14:29
Speaker
So I'm not sure exactly how to explain it very well, other than there seems to be an indication here that God does know what we're going to do and knows that we will believe and therefore gives us. There is a place where, you know, God Those he did foreknew, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son. So he knows that that's coming. And so he begins to work and predestinate. in the in He not begins to work, but before the foundation of the world, he works in the lives of those who he foreknows will come to Christ. So I see those passages connected here to what Jesus is teaching.
00:15:13
Speaker
But I do want to know what Nate has to say, because I know Nate looked at this one a little more carefully. Yeah, and I'm realizing that I might have been looking at a different one. and No, but... Well, just give your gut level thoughts here, Nate. You've been the silent observer here corner for a while. Oh, think I've said...
00:15:35
Speaker
I've had a couple little utters, but that's about it. um Uttering some words here, but um to be honest, man, I don't really have a good response to it. um I've heard this debated in the past, and I'm trying to trying to go back and find some old notes that I took from this one. um Because it is definitely on its face. and It's a difficult one to, you know, it seems to go along with what Tony was saying. It seems like this is the ah this this is the ah the kill shot, but um
00:16:06
Speaker
From what I can remember, I ah believe, um i know exactly what it was. there was ah there was a yeah It was a debate between James White and Layton Flowers, is what it was. They were specifically debating debating John 6, 44, I think, is what it was.
00:16:22
Speaker
And from what I can remember, Flowers' response to White was that It's not teaching unconditional election in the sense that all who hear and learn come to the Father. And so while all might hear, they might not learn. And so in the senate I guess the analogy that he used was um you have a classroom of students, and while all might hear the lesson, they might not all learn.
00:16:53
Speaker
The student still makes the choice to to learn from what the teacher is saying, to actually pay attention to what is being said. I know that was one point that he had brought up. um I will be honest, I don't remember the his his proof text or his his ah translation of the Greek.
00:17:14
Speaker
um But there was another thing that he brought up that I, this is where I was going to go with this, but I don't want to say, make the verse say say something that it doesn't. um I believe he had brought up that this was one pre-Calvary.
00:17:30
Speaker
And so God using the Jews to um to bring about the crucifixion.
00:17:41
Speaker
And later on in John 12, when he says, when the Son of Man is lifted up, then he will draw all men to himself. And so um and ah know I'm not making a ton of sense here. I'm just, like I said, I'm going back and kind of regurgitating some of the stuff that I remember hearing. well from to i so Nate, allow me to ask
Divine Invitation and Human Response
00:18:00
Speaker
Tony a question. yeah yeah Tony, um you said something in your and your question that related to trying to figure out how to word this that that related to the fact that some are not given the invitation.
00:18:19
Speaker
Where do you see that in this passage? I see at the very end. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father. So the access to the father is your access to Jesus is gate kept by the father.
00:18:34
Speaker
You can't come. But it doesn't say that some are not invited.
00:18:41
Speaker
And that's I think that's the point is that later on he draws all men to himself. Now the Calvinist position is that he draws all kinds of people. But I think that's reading into the text a little bit. I think in that sense all means all well.
00:18:54
Speaker
Hold on, can i can I ask a quick question? So they are invited, but they can't come? they're and They're invited, but that doesn't mean that they will come.
00:19:05
Speaker
But this says they can't.
00:19:09
Speaker
what What verse are you looking at again? 64. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, 65. You're right. no no man come me No man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my father.
00:19:23
Speaker
You can't come unless you're invited. That doesn't mean that that does not say that Some are not invited.
00:19:34
Speaker
it just says you can't get there without him doing it. OK, I was looking it. So, OK, y'all were looking at that. I was. um I was looking at.
00:19:47
Speaker
No one can come to the father. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. Yeah. So i with that verse 65, I think it's important to tie it to verse 64 because it's a direct response to verse 64. It says, this is why. What's why?
00:20:09
Speaker
There are some of you who do not believe. Some do not believe because one no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
00:20:20
Speaker
So it's not saying that some people have rejected the opportunity to believe. It's saying they cannot believe because the father hasn't granted them the ability.
00:20:37
Speaker
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Predestination vs. Free Will
00:21:25
Speaker
Well, this is where i think some people will say they believe in ah predestination unto salvation, But they don't believe in a double predestination, so that would be a predestination towards destruction. um You know, I think that may be where some people are coming from on that. But, you know, for me, i think I just go back, at you know, in Scripture passages like this, I'm like, okay, I need to, you know, hunker down and dive a little deeper and understand really what Jesus is teaching us. But I also need to take into account the whole counsel of God, all of Scripture, And try to make them work together. Because as I was saying a minute ago, i think this is another situation where it's like, look, God is sovereign.
00:22:10
Speaker
God rules the world. There's there's no way you can you can come to him without his starting it, his invitation. He calls us. ah God is sovereign, but I think there is also a place where mankind has a free will. So somewhere the free will of man and the sovereignty of God have to meet up together and they have to go together. And that's that's not always easy to make sense of, at least not for me.
00:22:36
Speaker
So I think that's where I am right now on John 6 and and the the passages we're discussing here. I don't see for sure that it says ah some are not invited.
00:22:49
Speaker
But you know, again, I'm not hard line, don't think, on anything right now in this part of the scripture. Yeah, and I would say, um just from this whole debate that we've had tonight, I say we, ah y'all have had, because I haven't really given much here, but um I've learned a lot just between tonight and the last episode we did, and I will admit, guys, that I i have a presupposition of
00:23:20
Speaker
For sure. i you know i i want to believe that Calvinism is not true. I will admit that. But in the sense – but I'm willing to have my mind changed. I just – I guess kind of going back to – somebody said it. i don't remember if we said it before we were recording. But if if there were clear answers to this, the debate would be over. But the fact is this debate has been going on since the dawn of the church. And so I'm not willing to just believe that it's that Calvinism is true just because Calvinists say they are true. I mean, it's like saying you're wrong because I'm right. um
00:23:54
Speaker
So, you know, I'm poking some fun there. but um You should believe it because Matt believes it. That's right. i think I think Mark's going to convince me before Matt does. but mark is yeah Mark is the Aaron to Matt's Moses.
00:24:12
Speaker
But...
00:24:15
Speaker
but um Can I throw up a piece of this yeah John chapter 6 passage that gives me pause? This is hard for me to find a non-Calvinistic solution to this, but the that first verse, verse 37, I'm sorry, verse 39, the way I have it on my notes is, it's making me fumble here, I apologize for that, but ah verse 39, this is the will of him who sent me that I shall lose nothing of all that he has given me.
00:24:44
Speaker
I don't know how to sink them with God's plan of salvation being an open invitation to the whole world. If Jesus is saying here, I'm not going to miss anybody.
00:24:57
Speaker
I get everything, everything that God has decided for me, I get. And obviously this is talking about souls. He ties that together extremely clearly talking about raising them up in the last day.
00:25:10
Speaker
These are these are the reward that God the Father has granted to Jesus for his successful mission on earth. And he doesn't miss a one.
00:25:21
Speaker
So I don't know how to sync that with an open invitation to the whole world where lots are missed, where everybody has that opportunity to come receive Christ and some don't. When Jesus says, I'm not gonna miss anybody, everybody that was meant for me, I'm getting them.
00:25:36
Speaker
Yes, but I hear you. But I think that the ones that the father gives to him are the ones that will come in response to the offer of salvation.
00:25:47
Speaker
For sure they are. That's where i'm that's where i i I sync that up, is that, yes, he's not going to lose those that are given to him. they will They will all get there. But but that those that are given to him are the ones that will believe. Those are the ones that receive your eternal life, and not all will believe. But I think that all are offered.
00:26:09
Speaker
And that's that's where i'm that's that's where I struggle, and that's where the disconnect is i I was in a three-hour conversation with my neighbor across the street, and it ended with me walking away because I had
Resisting God's Call
00:26:21
Speaker
to at that point. But I just, show me where we can resist the call of God in Romans 8, and I will...
00:26:33
Speaker
I will consider your position further. But the point was just that if this call of God goes out to everyone and God does not complete that good work that he has done in them by calling out to them and giving them some form of understanding, even though there are none who understand, then what what is that call? right If it's not just the mere call of, you or I standing on a street corner or talking in a car, unbeliever saying, Hey, repent and believe. But if it's something deeper that goes out to everyone in the whole world, that gives them that choice, how are we able to resist that to where it doesn't naturally lead to justification and glorification?
00:27:19
Speaker
And that's without, and and that's, that is the, the, the hardest sticking point, I think for me, is is the resisting of whatever that call is of god as you would understand it yeah i mean you're right that's kind of that that's a key point
00:27:45
Speaker
but i'm not sure we have time to continue diving in any further i think that we may have to uh we may have to call a ceasefire for the for the night right right can i throw out one final thought Yeah, i I think obviously this the the biggest conundrum here is for both sides is trying to understand sovereignty, which is like characters in a novel trying to understand an author.
Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility
00:28:13
Speaker
We're not even in the same dimension of what we're trying to comprehend. So there's going to be some room for misfire. we as two dimensional people coming to a three dimensional object, we can come at it from different sides.
00:28:28
Speaker
see completely different things and not realize we're looking exactly the same thing and i i think fundamentally that's what this boils down to i think when you come into the issues of sovereignty predestination foreknowledge these are all eternal elements these are all eternal characteristics of who god is there's not even one of the eternal characteristics of who god is that i can understand or comprehend But when I read through the Gospels and I read through how we are to approach sin, especially as believers, it is not ambiguous at all that we are expected to behave with agency, that we are expected to choose, to choose Christ, to choose to resist sin, to choose to stand up in the hard places and preach the Gospel.
00:29:23
Speaker
I don't know how all those sync up. but I know from this dimension, whatever God's sovereignty really means implies that I have duty, have responsibility, and I can be held accountable for failure of those things.
00:29:38
Speaker
And I don't think anybody here would disagree with any part of those things. And i I think that's part of why this debate, though it can go deep and why I can run through some extremely difficult, challenging doctrinal conundrums is still not strong enough to break brothers.
00:29:55
Speaker
Whenever we come at this humbly enough to realize that we are struggling and wrestling with the word of God, looking for truth, not looking for enemies. And I think that that's that's that's kind of a remarkable, beautiful thing. There's not very many places you find that in the world. So I think that's one of the one of the fruit and evidences that the spirit of God is in all of this, is in all of this digestion of his scriptures and trying to comprehend it.
00:30:22
Speaker
And it's it is still possible for us not to agree on this, but to still be brothers, to still be in the church, still be in the bride, still be part of whatever is unfolding here.
00:30:34
Speaker
um And there's there's a lot of mysteries here. There's a lot of aspects to this that neither one of us are going to touch. I threw it out last time, you know, that, you know, is God's sovereignty big enough to limit God's sovereignty?
00:30:45
Speaker
I still believe fundamentally, yes. I don't understand how that could not be true. If Jesus tells his disciples, I don't know something. Whenever he tells them in Matthew 24 that I don't know when I'm coming back, that can't be true unless Jesus is choosing to limit himself or submitting to the Father who has chosen to limit Jesus.
00:31:07
Speaker
And that's it's not blasphemy to consider that to be an element of a perfect being because his perfect angels also don't. That's part of their function is not to know.
00:31:18
Speaker
Part of them perfectly executing their mission is to be ignorant of that particular thing. And that's that's where for us to look through this and to try to figure out a perfect understanding is never going to happen.
00:31:31
Speaker
It's not possible because we're talking about the characteristics of the Godhead. And it's that's well beyond what we don't even have language capable of containing what information is there available in this particular subject.
00:31:46
Speaker
And I think that's one of the reasons why the Bible doesn't even attempt to get more clear than it already is. Before we stand perfect and holy before our savior. we i don't think we'll have the faculties to be able to comprehend the answer to this conundrum.
00:32:03
Speaker
And I'm okay with that solution. i'm ah I'm okay with resigning myself to that, but there's the Bible does seem to absolutely fundamentally suggest that Jesus knows everything that we are gonna do beforehand and has selected some of us to be a part of this family.
00:32:22
Speaker
and has not selected others to be part of his family, and that we're supposed to behave as though we have a part in that. And that's, i I don't know how those are consistent. want to say that one dimension is for us and one dimension is for him.
00:32:37
Speaker
The dimension of agency is for us. The dimension of predestination and foreknowledge is for him. And he knows how it works, but I have no idea how it works. And I don't know how to sink the two. But i I believe that our sovereign Lord is capable of creating universe for both those things exist together and in in a way where our mandate to preach the gospel still holds effect and still matters and our participation in righteousness and holiness still matters and has effect and our decisions to sin are 100 our own fault and our responsibility and i i think that that's i don't think those are disputed things but
00:33:21
Speaker
Anyway, that's just kind of my final thoughts on where this all ends. I think at the end of the day, you know, if we were all sitting here with a sinner, we wouldn't spend time trying to convince him whether or not he was part of the the elect. We'd say, bru man, you need to repent and believe the gospel, that Jesus Christ is the only way, the truth, and the life, and you need to come to him, and it's all about Jesus, and you need to...
Role of Prayer and Parental Guidance
00:33:48
Speaker
All right.
00:33:50
Speaker
Can you go out again? Lost him again. i've enraptured yeah yeah I pray every morning on my way to work that God will choose my kids.
00:34:00
Speaker
And I pray that in full faith because I believe that the same power that was prescribed towards Peter, that whatever you loosen on in heaven will loosed on earth, and whatever you buy in heaven will be bound on earth.
00:34:11
Speaker
I think an element of that authority coming through Jesus, not through me, I'm certainly no Peter. But I think appealing to that authority still is in effect. So I i pray for God to capture the souls of my kids, whether that's through election or through them being tenderized by the Holy Spirit coming to their heart and convicting them of sin and then finally giving in.
00:34:37
Speaker
I don't know the mechanism of how that works, but I know it's all in God's hands. And I think that there's... um
00:34:45
Speaker
Whatever the the vector is that we come in and pray for God to intervene in the souls of others, um I think that the kind of the predeterminism mindset is what gives you the clearest runway to do that. Because we don't know who's in there.
00:35:01
Speaker
And we don't even know from our perspective if it's possible to go back and write somebody's name in the book of life now from the beginning of time. Because time, of course, is not a factor.
00:35:13
Speaker
for the way that God decides to look at the universe that he's made. He can see the beginning from the end. We don't know because we're in the middle of the story. We're on we're in the middle of a chapter.
00:35:26
Speaker
We can't comprehend what happens on the the bookshelf next to us. it's you know there's there's There's such a limited view that we have on what this act what's the the the true mechanisms behind all this all actually work. I don't think there's any harm at all.
00:35:41
Speaker
I'm praying, God, please select my children. God, please bring them into your your elected family. Predestine them from the beginning of the foundations of the world.
00:35:53
Speaker
Whatever it is, God, do that to my kids. if you know Get them in. I want them in the club. That's my my chief purpose as a father is to make sure that I do all I can to help enable them.
00:36:04
Speaker
And in the end of the day, if that's a lot, that's fantastic. If it's nothing at all and God already figured it all out, Makes no difference. I'm going to try. that's Whatever my place is, I don't know how much is up to me and how much is up to to you know God. Obviously, all of it's up to God.
00:36:21
Speaker
And whatever I can possibly do is through his grace and through his faculty. But what I'm saying is like i still have to I still have to act as though I have the agency, as though I'm responsible for raising these children.
00:36:33
Speaker
That informs the way I behave, but how God decides to save my kids, I have no idea whether or not that's mike already been set from the go and I'm just no matter what I do they're in I'm just going to get them eventually or if it's a continuous battle I need to keep showing up for a fight every day I know which one I'm going to choose oh but what actually brings the victory is well beyond me well Tony you keep fighting and wearing your corner laughing
00:37:06
Speaker
And I think we can easily say we're in
Closing and Interaction Encouragement
00:37:08
Speaker
each other's corner. Absolutely. Guys, thank you so much for giving of some of your time and your experience and your insights into the scripture on these these episodes of Calvinism versus Arminianism.
00:37:21
Speaker
And really, truly trying to understand Christ and understand the scriptures in its completeness and its fullness and trying to help one another to that. So I appreciate the the contributions that all of you have made tonight.
00:37:34
Speaker
And I hope that we can have you all back next time for Fatherhood Friday. Folks, if you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at dads, D-A-D-S, at preacherdad.com.
00:37:48
Speaker
That's dads at preacherdad.com. And we would love to hear from you. You can comment on this video. You can like and subscribe. You can send us money. we will take it all, folks. We are taking all comers.
00:38:02
Speaker
So any interaction you'd like to give to us, we are welcoming it. And we sure would love to hear from audience. So please feel free to reach out to us. And in the meantime, we'll keep coming back and we'll keep saying, God bless you.
00:38:14
Speaker
We'll see you next time on Fatherhood Friday. Bye.