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Episode 48: Suicidal Ideation in Magic with Chase, Part II
93 Plays5 years ago
Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome to the Goblin Lore Podcast!
cw, tw: suicide, suicidal thoughts, depression
In our forty-eighth episode, psychologist-in-training Chase (@manacurves on Twitter) wraps up our discussion on how Magic: the Gathering has handled suicide and suicidal thoughts in its stories – from Gideon Jura, to Chandra Nalaar, to the Primeval dragon Darigaaz. In an article on our website, too, we have explored some of these concepts and how they were handled in War of the Spark.
This is a sensitive topic that is extremely important to the members of the cast, and we feel like it's necessary to examine the depictions of these mental health crises in popular media. We hope this episode can be educational for those who have not experienced these thoughts and feelings, and comfort and a resource for those who have.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below (thank you to author Anna Borges for compiling this list).
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255)
- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
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Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle).
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Transcript
Introduction and Importance of Discussing Suicide
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers and welcome to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast. Before we start tonight's episode, I want to give a little bit of a disclaimer. Today on the show we are going to be discussing suicide. This is a very important topic and something that we believe not only should be talked about, but also that this cast is kind of set up in a way that we have been wanting to discuss it for a while. I initially had this idea for this episode
00:00:51
Speaker
stemming back to suicide prevention month, which is in September every year. But I do think that this is a topic of conversation that really should be frankly discussed and discussed openly when people are comfortable with it. That said, we know that this might be a topic that people do not want to engage in. And we want to thank you for listening this far. And we completely understand if people choose to not engage with this episode.
00:01:16
Speaker
So that actually goes nicely into some of the common myths that we have about suicide that I think are in some ways related to stigma, but in some ways are just related to things we don't know.
Debunking Myths About Suicide
00:01:28
Speaker
One of the biggest myths that I remember having to overcome, and I will say as somebody who now does this as a non-student,
00:01:36
Speaker
I am still awkward at times, is that idea that people had this belief or people have this belief that talking about suicide is going to lead to people
00:01:48
Speaker
Committing or completing suicide or attempting suicide or is going to encourage suicide That was always the belief for a long time people have had this idea that The reason you don't talk about it is you're gonna put that idea into somebody's head who had never had the idea before or really wasn't considering it and now they're going to
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's what we know is, as we've talked about before, people are having these thoughts, but they're not being asked about them. Talking about suicide is not going to make somebody that has never had a suicidal thought in their life, all of a sudden become suicidal.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah. By not talking about it, you make people who do have those thoughts feel more isolated and unable. There's no outlet to deal with it. Yeah. I will say that one of the things is that we make it standard practice to ask about these things.
00:02:49
Speaker
And I, they're still uncomfortable where you almost want to explain a way why, why you're asking it. We asked this of everybody, you know, people have these thoughts. It's no big, it's almost like an awkwardness or a nervousness that comes about, even though I know that. Honestly, the best thing that you can do is just flat out ask. Yeah. I'm, I'm still uncomfortable with it at times. Yeah.
00:03:16
Speaker
What's an uncomfortable thing to talk about, even the people that you're close to, I mean, it's, and it's even more uncomfortable, especially, you know, when something you, when the thing you deal with most frequently is, is the passive side of it is the passive end of the spectrum, because people don't really have that capacity for understanding like,
00:03:37
Speaker
you know it's a it's a thought that pops up in your head or is always in the like back of your head like sort of quietly humming um they they only get like you're not suicidal or you are about to commit suicide like you know what i mean it's it's one end of the spectrum or the other to people who've never had to wrestle with it you know um and so it's it's a it's a weird thing to say like yeah this is something i deal with to people who don't get the context and they're like oh my god what can i do and you're like well
00:04:06
Speaker
Nothing. I'm good. Just letting you know. That's a hard thing too. It can be pressure-some for the person going through it to talk about it too because you don't want to be a burden on other people. You don't want people to feel like, oh, what can I do to help you? You don't want to have people up in your face and up in your business and all that sort of thing.
00:04:32
Speaker
I feel like one thing, I'm a very empathetic person and they're working with clients and I'm learning with it. One of the things that I have experienced is where I'll have clients, you know, tell me about the thoughts and feelings they've been having.
00:04:52
Speaker
sort of get emotional and I want to do what I would do with my friends who like if they had told me that you know I would you know give them my number and say you call me anytime you need you know give them a hug I'm like I'm here for you I will be here for you but as a professional I can't do that I can't you know I can't sit down hold them and say you know I'm here for you it will be okay and I feel like that's something that is
00:05:19
Speaker
I'm learning to deal with to kind of have that boundary and have those boundaries and not act upon that.
NAMI's Role in Mental Health Education
00:05:27
Speaker
So a lot of what we were kind of talking about, similar with that idea of talking about suicide will lead in and encourage it, are myths about suicide. A great resource for this actually is NAMI, which is the National Alliance on Mental Illness, who have really great kind of psycho-education sites with information about
00:05:47
Speaker
different mental health topics. And NAMI is a great organization. Other things to be keeping in mind is this idea that once an individual is suicidal, he or she will always remain suicidal.
00:06:01
Speaker
Like, that's this idea that somehow if you say it once, you're going to be suicidal for the rest of your life. We actually know, and this is kind of an interesting thing that people struggle with, 54% approximately of individuals who have died by suicide do not actually have a diagnosable mental disorder. Huh, really? Yes. That's surprised, like a majority.
00:06:24
Speaker
Majority. Now, depression is the most common amongst it, but suicide rates are high in people with schizophrenia. Suicide rates are high among people who use substances. Suicide rates are high among people who have just had a stressor and cannot deal with it and don't have a condition.
00:06:43
Speaker
Wow. You're not saying that 50 plus percent is not diagnosed, it's that they don't have a condition that is diagnosable. Right. Gotcha. Wow. Yeah. That's even more strong. It's not just that they haven't been diagnosed, that they actually don't have something that qualified as a diagnosable.
00:07:05
Speaker
It is intense emotional pain. And for some people, that is making a decision that is impulsive, that is a one time thing that has the consequences. Conversely, there are people that have the thoughts and have had past attempts that live long, successful lives.
Recognizing Suicide Warning Signs and Risk Factors
00:07:25
Speaker
That being said, most suicides don't just happen out of nowhere. I actually saw a really cool talk that showed that while substance use is associated with suicide, being high or drunk at the time of suicide is actually not as common as you would think or expect.
00:07:48
Speaker
So long-term substance use is a risk factor for somebody attempting or completing suicide. People who complete are no more likely to be drunk or high. Hmm. What do they say why that is? There's a belief that when people have made this decision, it actually is a decision and people have chosen to do it as basically as a
00:08:13
Speaker
There is thought and planning and those are why those are warning signs more than anything else, especially like having a plan is it does not tend to be as impulsive of an act as it is portrayed or as people think of it. That's 100% true. With one of my previous internships, something that we would always ask the clients is have you had thoughts of, have you ever had thoughts of harming yourself? Do you have a plan?
00:08:41
Speaker
Do you have intent? Do you have means? Because you know you could be having like these suicidal feelings or these thoughts or the passive feelings if you know I wish like someone would take me out but or you know like you would have the thought you know like I would like to do blah blah blah but you might not have the access to do blah blah blah you're just sort of having like these thoughts
00:09:02
Speaker
So one of the interventions for suicide is to actually restrict a person's means. So if you have a person that is suicidal, it would be to remove guns from the home. It would be to remove knives. It would be to remove extra pills that have been around the house. Because when people get to that point where they have intent more so than just thoughts, they can move to the point of planning and even more so can move to the point of preparation.
00:09:32
Speaker
Those are the things that we are looking for as professionals when we're assessing for suicide. If somebody tells me that, yeah, thought about how I would do it, it is a very different statement from, I've thought about how I would do it. This is the bridge I would jump off of. I know that it is not monitored. These were the times of days that I could go do it. Ooh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
00:09:58
Speaker
I'm doing it next Thursday. I mean, there really is kind of that those are the signs that we are kind of looking for is that level of detail or planning and preparation that people make. Yeah. While we cannot fully predict who is going to attempt or complete suicide, we know that it is now become in America, at least
00:10:25
Speaker
a top 10 reason that people die from. It just kind of within the last couple of years has actually made its way into that. So because of that, I do want to acknowledge that there are risk factors and signs to be aware of. And these are just taken straight from NAMI. And they are the ones that inform a lot of what we do. Family history. As I said before, substance use.
00:10:56
Speaker
access to means, serious or chronic medical illnesses, gender. So although more women than men attempt, men are four more times as likely to die. This tends to be due to choice of means more so than anything else. Okay.
00:11:25
Speaker
thought of something that I remember hearing about in school and that kind of shocked me. Mostly because of the difference of means. I don't want to get into too much detail about that. No. Men tend to choose means that are more lethal and when they attempt, they tend to be more successful. Agreed. Yeah. History of trauma, abuse,
00:11:52
Speaker
prolonged stress, so a lot of stressors over a period of time, isolation, age. So age is another one that tends to be young and old are actually your highest risk factors. So under 24, over 65. Recent tragedy or loss and agitation and sleep deprivation. Race can play a role.
00:12:21
Speaker
actually American Indian or Native American is actually the highest rate followed by white males. Yeah. There are some signs to just be aware of, you know, people doing things that are putting their affairs in order, giving away possessions.
00:12:46
Speaker
saying goodbye. They're actually, and this is one that is counterintuitive, is mood shifts from despair or actual sadness to calm can be a risk or a warning sign. Yeah, it's sort of an expression of resignation. Now, one of the things that we know is there is help.
00:13:16
Speaker
talking about it and I want to really hammer home over and over again today that being willing to talk about it, to be willing to ask about it, that comes from the perspective if you have a friend that you're worried about,
Crisis and Safety Planning for Prevention
00:13:30
Speaker
don't be afraid to ask. That is advice I can give you with well within my ethics because don't be afraid to ask somebody because once again, if somebody is thinking about it,
00:13:45
Speaker
you talking or asking about it is not going to be the thing that pushes them. You're not going to put thoughts in their head that they weren't having. Therapy has been found to be effective. Once again, and this is something I think we've talked a lot about on this show, therapy, which can be the cognitive behavioral or other ways,
00:14:12
Speaker
It's not necessarily about eliminating the thoughts. It's managing and coping with what we started today with talking about self-care. To kind of go off of that, that's kind of why I've been very attracted to acceptance and commitment therapy.
00:14:31
Speaker
because it doesn't really focus on fixing, and I'm doing air quotes around fixing y'all can't see, fixing yourself or changing yourself. It's just sort of like sitting with it and learning ways to handle the thoughts and feelings you've been had rather than just shoving them down or trying to make you feel like you're broken altogether. And that's why I really like acceptance commitment therapy.
00:14:58
Speaker
I know, too, one thing that the author that I quoted in that article that I wrote, that she talks about Anna Borges wrote this piece that I quoted. And she talks about some of those, I guess, kind of an informal cross-section of self-care and sort of coping mechanisms type of thing.
00:15:25
Speaker
she sort of categorizes these things as passing driftwood. She sort of gives this metaphor of floating in a sea, and that's how she deals with her passive suicidal ideation. And so some things that are smaller, more insignificant to her are driftwood that she can hang on to for a little bit before it gets too waterlogged. So finishing a book that's been taking up brain real estate for years. Maybe tonight, it'll be the night I meet someone halfway decent on Tinder.
00:15:54
Speaker
They're shallow motivators, hardly anchors to life, but sometimes you just need something that will get you through the month or week or night. But she also mentions the things that she calls her life preservers, things that are much stronger medication, her crisis safety plan that she has for herself.
00:16:12
Speaker
She says, my cats who depend on me and something too that I alluded to before that thought of transferring some of that hurt to people that you love and care about. That stuff, for somebody going through those thoughts and feelings and pains and worries, that is stuff that keeps you much sturdier. And I can say actually that I have all four of those things, including the cats. So.
00:16:41
Speaker
Well, and I will say too that one of the things I really liked when you linked that initial article from her, the whole idea of a crisis plan or a safety plan, the key to it is that it is...
00:16:54
Speaker
something that the person is using, not just something that you write down on a piece of paper, but that it's put in a place where it's being reviewed with the person, that people that are close to them, that they trust, have access to it, that it is being shared with their providers if they have it, family members, but the idea is that it is, it's something that we often talk about doing when somebody is in a more stable spot.
00:17:19
Speaker
because it is how to prevent that crisis from happening or what can help with it. So at that point, they are able to give permission to involve others. I actually wrote an article for Masters of Magic. I wrote about a crisis kit.
00:17:35
Speaker
that I feel is always good to have with you just like having like a personal crisis plan to you know keep in your wallet where like your crisis planning could be you know things that you would do to sort of de-escalate yourself in that situation or people who you can call and talk to and you know you alert these individuals ahead of time that I have this crisis plan in place or even when you are in
00:17:59
Speaker
a place where you're feeling triggered. You have these things set aside to soothe you and calm you and help de-escalate you from where you are. I think that those are very important to have, whether it be having suicidal ideation or your anxiety is being triggered because you're in a place with a lot of people. I feel like having a crisis plan or a crisis kit
00:18:29
Speaker
set aside is something that should be normalized. And I personally really buy into crisis prevention plans.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think you've talked about that in the past, Alex, when we did our episode on how to, you know, how to go to a convention successfully sort of thing where just having those ideas of, you know, even not in the realm of suicide, but just like for stress and anxiety. I think you said stuff like, you know, nowhere you can go to relieve some of that social pressure in that convention center or whatnot.
00:19:07
Speaker
Yeah and like for me one of the first things that I did that really helped me at conventions was I gave myself permission to spend time in the in my hotel room. I gave myself permission to run back to my hotel room basically. Also like I spent a lot of time listening to books and music and podcasts and things and so like I'd always bring earbuds but then I would
00:19:31
Speaker
put them like in a pocket somewhere I wouldn't use them that weekend even as I wasn't part of the con I was just going to restaurants and things because yeah maybe there's con people around but I always had them with me because again that was if I need to I have permission to retreat here is here is my retreat and I used to joke with my friends that I don't have cable but I love watching the Food Network and most hotels have Food Network so I'm like worst case scenario I spend the weekend in my hotel room watching the Food Network and hey that sounds like a good weekend too
00:19:59
Speaker
That literally sounds like most nights of my week since Gwen's been born. And I just ate. I'm like, yeah, Gwen can learn to make this. She can cook this. Her knife skills are right now, but she's going to get there.
00:20:16
Speaker
To kind of tie this show together and end, we wanted to discuss about the fact that there are some both online and phone numbers that are available as resources.
Mental Health Resources and Support Lines
00:20:27
Speaker
One that I want to mention that is not one of the typical ones is 311.org.
00:20:32
Speaker
So 311.org will actually take you to mental health services that are available in your area. This can be used, it's a useful way to find low cost clinics. If you're looking just to try to get engaged with some mental health care, 311.org is a very good place to just be able to see, is there a sliding scale clinic in my town? Is there places that might take free or low cost, or my insurance?
00:20:57
Speaker
they're a great place to start. If you are having thoughts of wanting to harm yourself, there are great resources that are available. There is what is now called the crisis line. One reason that we are even moving away from the designation of a crisis line is this idea that you do not need to be in crisis to call. These really are places that you can reach out to if you are just having a tough time. It does not have to be that you're at the point of thinking about suicide.
00:21:25
Speaker
The national one for the US is 1-800-273-8255. That's 1-800-273-TALK. One thing to keep in mind, as soon as you call, if you are a veteran and you press 1, you will be taken directly to the Veterans Crisis Line. Your local area may have other warm lines that are staffed at different times of the day. They may not be available 24 hours, but it's always a good thing to have those numbers available.
00:21:54
Speaker
For people that might be looking for services or for crisis lines that are more friendly to LGBT, there is the trevorproject.org. PFLAG. Under the suicidology.org, there are resources for LGBT.
00:22:12
Speaker
And just a week or two ago, translifeline.org opened up two call lines, both in the US and Canada. That US number is 877-565-8860. And the one in Canada is 877-330-6366. There are other worldwide lines, and we will include those numbers for you in our show notes.
00:22:40
Speaker
really want to thank you all for staying with us and having this discussion.
Podcast Support and Credits
00:23:00
Speaker
If you would like to support the friendly neighborhood Gobslugs, you can do so at patreon.com slash Gobletmore Pod. This episode of Gobletmore was hosted by Hobbs Q, where you can find on Twitter at Hobbs Q. This episode was written and co-hosted by Alex Newman, who you can find on Twitter at Alexander Newham. Engineering, editing, and production for this episode by Joe Redemann, where you can find on Twitter at Findhorn. That's F-Y-N-D, Orton.
00:23:27
Speaker
Our music is by Vintergarten, where you can find at vintergarten.com. That's winter g-a-t-a-n dot com. Logo by Stephen Raphael on Twitter at Stephen Raffle. Goblin lore is a presentation of Hipsters of the Coast, which you can find at hipstersofthecoast.com or at hipsters MTG on Twitter. Thank you all for listening. And remember, goblins, like snowflakes, are only dangerous in numbers.